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The State of the Rocketeer


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#1 Xacius

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Posted March 06 2014 - 02:47 PM

After extensive testing and playtime with the Steam update, I've been able to form conclusions regarding the current state of Hawken.  

You don't have to be an expert to understand the abysmal state of Bunker.  Though, to be fair, the map wouldn't be so bad if certain weapons weren't entirely out of whack.  

One of those weapons is the Seeker.  

Initially, I thought that the Hellfires were the core part of the problem.  While almost impossible to dodge consistently on C-mechs, the Hellfires are easily avoided on B's and A's.  Players are also now prompted with a warning signal whenever an enemy has a lock on them, promoting counter-play and making reactive response a possibility.  

Conclusion: The Hellfires are fine.  The Seeker is not.  

Pre-patch, the Seeker didn't seem so bad.  Speeds were faster, making it easier to avoid, and healthpools were larger, giving all Mechs more time to close the distance against long-to-mid-range Seeker harassment.  As many of you may already know, the Seeker tracks slower targets better than fast targets.  Since most mechs received a speed reduction with the Steam update, the Seeker was indirectly buffed.  

Pre-patch, the Seeker did roughly 78DPS.  Post-patch, the DPS is still 78.  For reference, the uncharged Heat Cannon DPS is 79, barely one point higher than the Seeker.  

For an auto-tracking weapon, the DPS is too damn high.  2 Seekers almost deal as much damage as a TOW or GL, and deal only 4 damage less than an entire Hellfire volley.  I'm more scared of Seekers than I am of Hellfires.  The main problem is that when Hellfires are approaching, you generally have to save your dodge if you want to avoid the volley.  While you're saving your dodge, you're most likely getting pegged by Seekers.  It's a lose/lose, making it incredibly frustrating to go up against a Seeketeer, especially if you're playing a class that actually requires you to fuzzy bunny aim.  

This weapon needs a flat damage reduction.  

Also, #increasethespeeds

Edited by Xacius, March 06 2014 - 03:11 PM.

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#2 space_

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Posted March 06 2014 - 02:52 PM

Thank you I have been saying this for awhile.. Bruiser is really well balanced right now.. Rocketeer is not and it isnt the Hellfires that makes the Rocketeer unbalanced.. playing rocketeer with anything other then seeker on it AKA Heat or EOC and it is much more balanced mech.. seeker is like EZ more squared
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#3 comic_sans

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Posted March 06 2014 - 02:55 PM

This is a new perspective I hadn't considered, and thank you for bringing it to our attention.

#4 SS396

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Posted March 06 2014 - 03:03 PM

I say "Move along, nothing to see here"  :lol:

Leave mah Rocketeer alone please.  Its finally gotten to be something worthwhile to play.  

Its really not OP if you can get into close range, but you say back and maintain med/long distance, it can out DPS most mechs easily.  

But thats what a long range support mech is supposed to be right?
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#5 Atmos_Dwagon

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Posted March 06 2014 - 03:07 PM

Sounds like Rocketeer is "balanced"; it has access to a great weapon, but is permanently stuck with a mediocre-at-best weapon. ^_^
(I'm being factitious if that's not evident)

Though if they do nerf the Seeker as a result of this, I'll be only the more glad I picked up a Brawler instead of a Rocketeer when I had the chance.

Edited by Atmos_Dwagon, March 06 2014 - 03:07 PM.


#6 Xacius

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Posted March 06 2014 - 03:11 PM

View PostSS396, on March 06 2014 - 03:03 PM, said:

But thats what a long range support mech is supposed to be right?

I'd argue that a mid-to-long range mech with track-weaponry should be capable of harassment.  The sheer amount of firepower currently available is more than that tbh.  I'm not saying that the Seeker shouldn't exist, but I do think it could use a significant damage reduction.
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#7 HatesYourFace

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Posted March 06 2014 - 03:15 PM

I had no idea Seeker damage had stayed the same post ttk change.

78 is very high for a fast firing weapon that tracks.

I don't think a huge change is in order, just a small tweak. 65 DMG maybe?
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I also play on "PoundSignYoloSwag" (Assault/G2 Assault) and "FriendshipIsMagic" (Rocketeer) But haven't been able to add them to my Sig yet due to computer problems.

#8 angryhampster

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Posted March 06 2014 - 03:18 PM

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#9 Xynno

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Posted March 06 2014 - 03:18 PM

Why not buff one of its natural enemies that would normally give it trouble, the raider is in a pretty sorry state right now.

Also is increasing the speeds really the right thing to do, it benefits the A's more than anything and the A's are in a pretty good spot right now.

At the current speed it leaves just a little more time to think about your approach insted of having that one scout dodge everyone and get away with little to no effort.

Edited by Xynno, March 06 2014 - 03:23 PM.


#10 oo_olio_oo

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Posted March 06 2014 - 03:19 PM

Regards on your request about overall speed increase and seeker DPS nerf, I would not do both at the same time. I would personally like a little bit faster movement speed overhaul and then evaluate once more what is the state of seekers. I would think that if your walking and boosting speeds would go higher, then it would be already a pretty harsh nerf to auto tracking weapons. Doing both at the same time, would possibly put Rocketeer in really nasty situation. Agree that HF are in good position at the moment.

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#11 Pixues

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Posted March 06 2014 - 03:22 PM

No, hellfire is a problem in this game

#12 angryhampster

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Posted March 06 2014 - 03:24 PM

the only mech that is bothersome are technicians, and sometimes, rarely berserkers.
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#13 Analysis

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Posted March 06 2014 - 03:31 PM

View PostXacius, on March 06 2014 - 02:47 PM, said:

  While almost impossible to dodge consistently on C-mechs, the Hellfires are easily avoided on B's and A's.  

Conclusion: The Hellfires are fine.  The Seeker is not.  


Thanks for the laugh. Hellfires are not easy to dodge in B or A classes. Unless you have some sort of magical technique that I'm not aware of dodging hellfires is still largely based on luck.

I still feel bunker is fine as a map. Some people have trouble with sharpshooters on Bunker, but I have no problem using the hills to block line of sight.

I've already voiced my opinion on Hellfires(and the HEAT) in the past so you know where I stand.

#14 Xacius

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Posted March 06 2014 - 03:43 PM

View PostAnalysis, on March 06 2014 - 03:31 PM, said:

Thanks for the laugh. Hellfires are not easy to dodge in B or A classes. Unless you have some sort of magical technique that I'm not aware of dodging hellfires is still largely based on luck.

Actually, it's all about proper timing.  


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#15 space_

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Posted March 06 2014 - 03:47 PM

I usually play Bruiser simply BC I find it more versatile but this past week have dusted off my Rocketeer builds simply BC my clan wants me to.  My build that uses heat cannon is significantly less effective then the build with seeker in situations VS a class mechs.  It dominated all A class mechs mainly BC u are able to move in reverse so quickly in Rock (and bruiser) and have a constant barrage of 78 dmg the enemy has almost no chance to escape.

Hellfires can be dodged with skilled movement I find seekers cannot.  There in lies one of the major problems.  That and the speed the weapon fires.  Personally I think the damage could be left the same and the reload time or the heat increased so the weapon (seeker) is not so spammy or the way the weapon locks could be changed to allow dodging of the missiles with skilled movement.

When the gap is closed the Rocketeer is vulnerable but with the airspeed of this mech combined with particular internals, namely the fuel converter, a good Rocketeer pilot can easily control the range of a fight in most circumstances.  I don't think the movement speed of the mech should be changed I find it is good where it is but the sheer amount of damage you can output while moving backwards with very little change of missing a shot is crazy.

Which bring me to the main problem with seeker Rocketeer.   In comparison to other mechs this build can easily land 80%+ accuracy for its damage output in near all situation outside of 15m.  No other mech in the game has the ability to land this much of its damage output at such a high accuracy during fast moving firefights which is the cause of it being OP.  When balancing out the seeker the effectiveness of its functional accuracy must be taken into account in the same way that functional armor was determined using the mobility of various mechs.

I think the reason a lot of people think hellfires are the problem is that they hear the incoming lock so they know that they are getting hit, but they don't realize that the bulk of the damage dealt to them by a rocketeer is constant from the seekers.


EDIT:

I believe I said in "higher skilled matches" hellfires are fairly easy to dodge, I would say that in high skill matches most players in B or C class can dodge a volley 30-40% of the time.  If you take into account the skill curve this means with time more players will learn how to do this.  The key to avoiding hellfire is either doing what u see in that video using air dodge or doing a forward boost at 90 degree angle to the incoming and then jumping immediately upon ending your boost.

Edited by space_, March 06 2014 - 03:54 PM.

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#16 Analysis

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Posted March 06 2014 - 03:58 PM

View PostXacius, on March 06 2014 - 03:43 PM, said:

View PostAnalysis, on March 06 2014 - 03:31 PM, said:

Thanks for the laugh. Hellfires are not easy to dodge in B or A classes. Unless you have some sort of magical technique that I'm not aware of dodging hellfires is still largely based on luck.

Actually, it's all about proper timing.  


That doesn't assist me at all since you have a modified ini file which gives a better FOV and what appears to be a significant amount of time to react(there is probably enough time to boost behind the wall). In most of my games I'm being attacked by multiple opponents and can't dedicate my time to watch the hellfire path. The other issue is the hellfires in the video are only coming in a direct forward path. Plenty of times a "skilled" user will launch the hellfires upward or at an angle changing the trajectory. I've been hit far to many times when dodging behind cover when other weapons would of been blocked.

#17 Sylhiri

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Posted March 06 2014 - 04:05 PM

Even if the Seekers had a damage reduction, one of the main problems of Bunker is the limited cover as you can shoot over the small hills with hellfires.

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#18 comic_sans

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Posted March 06 2014 - 04:08 PM

They're far from easy to dodge and your timing has to be stupid good anywhere outside of a controlled test like the one Xac posted.  I can usually get away with only getting slammed by 2 or 3 of them, but dodging them all with any degree of latency IN A DISTANCE SHORTER THAN ALL THE WAY ACROSS PROSK is pretty tough.

Kinda off topic and I'd rather see seeker discussion since it's so rare, but I'd have liked to see hellfires travel along a straight line to an enemy, locked at a certain speed moving towards the enemy but also deviating on the y axis like a sinewave whenever the target changes altitude to match their height/depth rather than adjusting the trajectory simply.  This would give other mechs a much easier chance to do a movement fakeout, like flying in the air and dropping right before they hit you to make the missiles nosedive into a rock in front of you or something.  I'll do a little visual aid or something when I get back from IRL nonsense if anyone find this idea interesting but confusing.

Edited by comic_sans, March 06 2014 - 04:13 PM.


#19 mrvile

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Posted March 06 2014 - 04:31 PM

Interesting to see some anti-Rocketeer QQ from a truly high-tier player, and it's doubly interesting that it focuses on the Seeker. I use the Seeker because the other two weapons don't really feel like I'm playing a Rocketeer, and I absolutely take advantage of everything it provides. It's a crazy effective complement to the Hellfires, I use it to force the dodge so I can consistantly plant Hellfire salvos. Due to the projectile speed, it works best if enemies are either running directly towards me or away from me, but it can sometimes feel too effective in those situations. I notice many A-classes and Raiders struggle to close the gap because I'm sending so many projectiles their way, and having to dodge some of these projectiles just gives me more time to spam more Seekers. By the time they get within fighting distance, they are one shot away from death.

I think that if anything, Seekers need longer downtime...right now they feel too spammy, and this encourages sloppy play on my part because I just spam them and it works. By decreasing the rate of fire, it will force me to actually think about my shots and will give the opponent a better chance of managing the projectiles.

Hellfires, despite all the QQ they receive, have actually made me a better player not because I've forgotten how to aim, but because their reload+lock time is so slow that I really need to be opportunistic about my shots. I've found that if I can wait just one more second to line up the shot after acquiring lock, I end up with better results. I started playing Hellfires by just launching them as soon as they lock, which meant a lot of missed shots. But being patient and waiting for the enemy to open himself up or waiting for the dodge before firing means a lot more consistant, full damage shots.

#20 hawkenus

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Posted March 06 2014 - 04:35 PM

View PostXacius, on March 06 2014 - 03:43 PM, said:

View PostAnalysis, on March 06 2014 - 03:31 PM, said:

Thanks for the laugh. Hellfires are not easy to dodge in B or A classes. Unless you have some sort of magical technique that I'm not aware of dodging hellfires is still largely based on luck.

Actually, it's all about proper timing.  


I would like to see the same test with B and C class mechs... and also A class mechs with diffrent distance from the Rocketeer.
I don't think you can always dodge Hellfires, especially when they're properly curved.

Next, about Seeker... you still need to aim at your enemy, it's not just lock-on and forget like Hellfires.


Was you just owned in your Scout by Rocketeer that you started this thread as I do not understand the reasons behind it... nert this nerf that, more speed, less speed...
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