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A warning to us all


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#1 OdinTheWise

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Posted September 24 2013 - 10:26 PM

http://www.gamefront...m-ragesplosion/

I know this isn't what the hawken team wants to hear rite now, but now is the best time to put it out there. Hawken needs to take the lessons that MWO has made and not make the same mistakes. It is sad to say that hawken is teetering on the edge of that nasty cliff. If hawken doesn't want to fall to ruin, do more collaboration with your community. Get community oriented features put on the fast track. FTP games are all about the community. I know it's scary and the suits don't want you guys to talk about anything, but it's vital to get us as much information as you can to us. I don't mean how much you are allowed to give us, but information about current projects or features, or ect. And if they don't pan out tell us. But for the love of god keep us (the community) involved in the production of the game as possible. The HAB thing was a step in the right direction but still not good enough. I think there is potential to this process rite. This community is by far one of the most supportive and nice gaming forums I have ever been too. Take advantage of our gentle caressing temperament and make a damn good game that community can really get behind.

And a note to the community: don't harass the devs. They bust their balls for us. If you want to be heard, post about it. Some of the more prominent members of our little communit have been here a while, but there are veterans who don't speak up either. There is no eleitism in hawken. We all have had our asses handed to us by a skrub or two. And the best players play with the best players, deal with it. We just need to be more friendlier to all.

This is my wall of text and that is all I got to say bout that.

Edit: thanx to ashfire908 for showing me that article.

Edited by OdinTheWise, September 25 2013 - 01:38 PM.

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#2 N0stalgia

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Posted September 24 2013 - 11:30 PM

Nice article. I hope Meteor and Adhesive read it.
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#3 mookie_o_riley

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Posted September 24 2013 - 11:45 PM

Wow. I considered MWO a while back but didn't bite. Very interesting. Thanks for the post. I couldn't agree with your sentiments more. Give the devs credit for their dedication, the fact that they have more players than you to consider and the, at times, staggering amount of work they put in. Conversely, respect the intelligence of your players and recognize them as the sole reason for doing said work. It's a balance for sure and this is a very clear picture of how quickly things can go sideways. Long Live Hawken!!
       all war is deception      

#4 Aims

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Posted September 24 2013 - 11:45 PM

Pretty depressing stuff - don't let it happen to Hawken.

#5 Umbre

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Posted September 24 2013 - 11:46 PM

"The developer has stated it’s no longer concerned with pleasing existing fans — many of whom have dumped hundreds of dollars into Mechwarrior Online based on the promises PGI made them — and that its goal is to instead seek out new players."

This is actually something I feel applies to myself, as well as the entirety of the former Steel Killers.

Most of us bought the Vanguard initiative on the basis that we would have access to all of the cosmetics, emblems, etc.

From what h0B0 tells me, Zamboni stated that there is no intention of allowing players to equip Cupcake chassis parts on other C class mechs, which is a contradiction of what we were promised. I paid for a product that I have not yet received, and am now being told I will likely never receive. I suspect this decision was made based on the idea that they are trying to appeal to new players and expand their audiences by focusing only on new additions to the game, rather than fixing/balancing the old.

#6 Exeon

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Posted September 25 2013 - 12:09 AM

View PostUmbre, on September 24 2013 - 11:46 PM, said:

"The developer has stated it’s no longer concerned with pleasing existing fans — many of whom have dumped hundreds of dollars into Mechwarrior Online based on the promises PGI made them — and that its goal is to instead seek out new players."

This is actually something I feel applies to myself, as well as the entirety of the former Steel Killers.

Most of us bought the Vanguard initiative on the basis that we would have access to all of the cosmetics, emblems, etc.

From what h0B0 tells me, Zamboni stated that there is no intention of allowing players to equip Cupcake chassis parts on other C class mechs, which is a contradiction of what we were promised. I paid for a product that I have not yet received, and am now being told I will likely never receive. I suspect this decision was made based on the idea that they are trying to appeal to new players and expand their audiences by focusing only on new additions to the game, rather than fixing/balancing the old.

Seems like hearsay, I'd love to see a post on this instead of 'my friend said this guy said...'

View PostDew, on April 04 2014 - 01:15 PM, said:

There's a difference between making the hoop 14 feet high and telling all the players that you have to wait for half a second after running before you can shoot the ball.


#7 tBanzai

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Posted September 25 2013 - 12:26 AM

The difference here is that PGI/IGP has a penchant of outwardly mocking the people who confront them regarding their game as well as making excuses for any mistakes made with a game that hasn't changed at all for over a year with the exclusion of profit-generating assets like pay-to-own mechs.

At the very least, the Ascension patch actually added and changed content, regardless of if players perceive it as good or bad, and core gameplay changes have been made to attempt to better the game according to community feedback.  In comparison, the biggest change PGI has coming is the UI 2.0 which apes Hawken's Ascension UI with a very heavy emphasis on their real-money payment options.  Nothing else has changed about it since coming out of alpha other than graphical fidelity plummeting while they optimize for an attempted console release.


At its core, the comparison reads like this:

Adhesive does actual work and stays professional even in the face of players picking the game apart after every patch.  PGI makes excuses for delays upon delays and is openly hostile to its players who dare question their release schedule and whatever promises they've broken along the way (like their promise to never add 3PV).

Edited by tBanzai, September 25 2013 - 12:28 AM.


#8 DerMax

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Posted September 25 2013 - 12:29 AM

Yes, I've been feeling the same — we need more communication. This whole policy of secrecy by ADH and Meteor creates nothing but distrust, and, as I've already stated, I think ADH should appoint someone to communicate with us on a regular basis. It's a very simple idea, but the devs seem to ignore it for some reason.

#9 Sadukar

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Posted September 25 2013 - 12:30 AM

Very nice article there, but one question stands: how can you make all the community happy ?
If half want the tech to be buffed and half want it nerfed, some ppl will be dissapointed by the choices you make. I personally think that Adhesive have been rather close to the community.HAB for example picked some members (on a secret picking algorithm) who aided in the tests and suggestions. But what about the others? There are as many oppinions as there are members, for me the game is a bit further to the edge than you think, not safe by any means but ... could afford a step to the left or right without falling too hard.

HAB was a lot bigger than we think, from a gaming dev company perspective, the community input adds more variables and slows down the development time, maybe the game is a lot more balanced because of that (weapons and mechs not mm).

Yes I agree, please devs share as much as you can even give us the illusion of fake help like paintjob desing contest or "community playtest" or more serious things like HAB tests we take everything you throw at us, and a commuity like this will allways want more because we love the game so much and we each have our hopes of what this game could be, how it could evolve.

Community based games like this are exposed to this risk no way of dodgind that (not even with suspension tuning :) ) but I like and support what Adhesive have done so far, yes they had some mistakes (from my point of view), yes there are bugs, server issues etc ... but ... the game is freaking awesome

(i said community a lot in this post :) )
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#10 SirCannonFodder

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Posted September 25 2013 - 12:46 AM

View PostExeon, on September 25 2013 - 12:09 AM, said:

View PostUmbre, on September 24 2013 - 11:46 PM, said:

"The developer has stated it’s no longer concerned with pleasing existing fans — many of whom have dumped hundreds of dollars into Mechwarrior Online based on the promises PGI made them — and that its goal is to instead seek out new players."

This is actually something I feel applies to myself, as well as the entirety of the former Steel Killers.

Most of us bought the Vanguard initiative on the basis that we would have access to all of the cosmetics, emblems, etc.

From what h0B0 tells me, Zamboni stated that there is no intention of allowing players to equip Cupcake chassis parts on other C class mechs, which is a contradiction of what we were promised. I paid for a product that I have not yet received, and am now being told I will likely never receive. I suspect this decision was made based on the idea that they are trying to appeal to new players and expand their audiences by focusing only on new additions to the game, rather than fixing/balancing the old.

Seems like hearsay, I'd love to see a post on this instead of 'my friend said this guy said...'

I messaged Zamboni about when we might expect to get our Vanguard cosmetics, and this is what he told me:

[HWK]ZamboniChaos, on September 20 2013 - 10:35 AM, said:

I'm sorry for the inconvenience, but at the moment we must focus our resources on more pressing issues. We will update the community when we have more information on the Vanguard cosmetics.



View PostSadukar, on September 25 2013 - 12:30 AM, said:

Very nice article there, but one question stands: how can you make all the community happy ?
If half want the tech to be buffed and half want it nerfed, some ppl will be dissapointed by the choices you make.

They don't need to make choices that please everyone, they just need to explain honestly why they make the choices they do, and what choices they're planning on making in the future.

Edited by SirCannonFodder, September 25 2013 - 12:50 AM.

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#11 palad1ne

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Posted September 25 2013 - 01:11 AM

I always think, when i hear " the devs should listen more to the community", what this game would look like if they listen to all.

Its not possible to do things right for everyone. Thats for sure. If i would be a Game Developer then i would only looking for major trends developed in the community but never to such kind of drooling like here happens every time a new patch comes out. This is like sitting beside a raging 120 db BS Generator and try to staple card houses.

#12 Teljaxx

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Posted September 25 2013 - 01:24 AM

That article makes me wish I had been paying more attention to the MWO forums lately. Watching PGI and IGP so determinedly tear down the potentially massive cash cow that they had, and scare off everyone that was so eager to be loyal paying customers (like me) brings me a grim satisfaction.

I am so glad that I got to play MWO really early in its closed beta. Because I got to play it back when it was actually fun, still had so much potential, and the developers still interacted directly with the community.

But then, basically none of our suggestions were ever implemented. Important, yet buggy features, like mech knockdown and high top speeds, were simply removed with no word about them ever coming back. Most of their balancing fixes, like ghost heat, ended up being so complex and nonsensical that they caused more problems than they solved. The official Dev communication ended up being nothing but empty assurances with no actual information whatsoever, when they even bothered to say anything at all. And to top it all off, they were consistently releasing new content, having MC sales, events like tournaments and contests, and were always acting like the game was the best thing ever and the community loved it in their news posts.

Adhesive, Meteor, please take MWO as a perfect example of exactly what NOT to do with Hawken.
  • Do not let the beta be the most fun iteration of the game by ruining it later.
  • Do not keep quiet about your changes. If you have a good reason for making a change, people should understand.
  • Do your best to keep whatever promises you make. And once again, tell us why if you cannot.
  • And, for the love of whatever gods you may worship, DO NOT LAUNCH THE GAME AS BROKEN AND UNFINISHED AS MWO IS.
If you ever ruin Hawken like PGI ruined MWO, I will personally come to your offices, and slap each and every one of you with the biggest, smelliest fish that I can find. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED.
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#13 Nerdsinc

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Posted September 25 2013 - 01:35 AM

Great read. I completely agree with this.

The latest patch has mostly gamified the game and added a vertical progression system, something that many of us don't want. A level 1 should be able to play with a level 25 and be able to easily get a kill on said level 25 without much hassle. Instead what's happened is that even a skilled level 1 CRT will lose to a max rank CRT simply because the max rank CRT has more armor and better internals.

The system that you guys have put in have split an already fairly small playerbase and have created a fair ammount of chaos in the balance section. Get your priorities in line Adhesive/Meteor, because if you don't you'll be in for a rough ride.

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#14 SirCannonFodder

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Posted September 25 2013 - 01:36 AM

View Postpalad1ne, on September 25 2013 - 01:11 AM, said:

I always think, when i hear " the devs should listen more to the community", what this game would look like if they listen to all.

Its not possible to do things right for everyone. Thats for sure. If i would be a Game Developer then i would only looking for major trends developed in the community but never to such kind of drooling like here happens every time a new patch comes out. This is like sitting beside a raging 120 db BS Generator and try to staple card houses.
I think there's a few things most of the community can agree on. For example, being able to one-shot an entire class of mech is bad. Being able to make a mech entirely defenseless for 7 seconds at the push of a button is bad. Matching parties with random people so the balance is completely screwed up is bad. These are all things the devs apparently disagree(d) with.

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#15 tBanzai

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Posted September 25 2013 - 01:40 AM

View PostSirCannonFodder, on September 25 2013 - 01:36 AM, said:

View Postpalad1ne, on September 25 2013 - 01:11 AM, said:

I always think, when i hear " the devs should listen more to the community", what this game would look like if they listen to all.

Its not possible to do things right for everyone. Thats for sure. If i would be a Game Developer then i would only looking for major trends developed in the community but never to such kind of drooling like here happens every time a new patch comes out. This is like sitting beside a raging 120 db BS Generator and try to staple card houses.
I think there's a few things most of the community can agree on. For example, being able to one-shot an entire class of mech is bad. Being able to make a mech entirely defenseless for 7 seconds at the push of a button is bad. Matching parties with random people so the balance is completely screwed up is bad. These are all things the devs apparently disagree(d) with.

Disagreed with or just simply haven't had a chance to change yet?  Patches and rebalances shouldn't come as quickly as you think, I feel.  It hasn't even been 3 weeks since Ascension went live.

Edited by tBanzai, September 25 2013 - 01:41 AM.


#16 SirCannonFodder

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Posted September 25 2013 - 01:45 AM

View PosttBanzai, on September 25 2013 - 01:40 AM, said:

View PostSirCannonFodder, on September 25 2013 - 01:36 AM, said:

View Postpalad1ne, on September 25 2013 - 01:11 AM, said:

I always think, when i hear " the devs should listen more to the community", what this game would look like if they listen to all.

Its not possible to do things right for everyone. Thats for sure. If i would be a Game Developer then i would only looking for major trends developed in the community but never to such kind of drooling like here happens every time a new patch comes out. This is like sitting beside a raging 120 db BS Generator and try to staple card houses.
I think there's a few things most of the community can agree on. For example, being able to one-shot an entire class of mech is bad. Being able to make a mech entirely defenseless for 7 seconds at the push of a button is bad. Matching parties with random people so the balance is completely screwed up is bad. These are all things the devs apparently disagree(d) with.

Disagreed with or just simply haven't had a chance to change yet?  Patches and rebalances shouldn't come as quickly as you think, I feel.  It hasn't even been 3 weeks since Ascension went live.
The one-shot thing was when the Raider was released, and was changed fairly quickly. The 7 second EMP happened at the start of open beta, and for about a month they told us it wasn't a problem in the face of just about every experienced player telling them it was, until everyone finally stopped being sporting about not using the completely OP item at which point they discovered that yes, it was in fact a problem.

Edited by SirCannonFodder, September 25 2013 - 02:07 AM.

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#17 tBanzai

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Posted September 25 2013 - 01:46 AM

View PostSirCannonFodder, on September 25 2013 - 01:45 AM, said:

View PosttBanzai, on September 25 2013 - 01:40 AM, said:

View PostSirCannonFodder, on September 25 2013 - 01:36 AM, said:

View Postpalad1ne, on September 25 2013 - 01:11 AM, said:

I always think, when i hear " the devs should listen more to the community", what this game would look like if they listen to all.

Its not possible to do things right for everyone. Thats for sure. If i would be a Game Developer then i would only looking for major trends developed in the community but never to such kind of drooling like here happens every time a new patch comes out. This is like sitting beside a raging 120 db BS Generator and try to staple card houses.
I think there's a few things most of the community can agree on. For example, being able to one-shot an entire class of mech is bad. Being able to make a mech entirely defenseless for 7 seconds at the push of a button is bad. Matching parties with random people so the balance is completely screwed up is bad. These are all things the devs apparently disagree(d) with.

Disagreed with or just simply haven't had a chance to change yet?  Patches and rebalances shouldn't come as quickly as you think, I feel.  It hasn't even been 3 weeks since Ascension went live.
The one-shot thing was when the Raider was released, and was changed fairly quickly. The 7 second EMP happened at the start of open beta, and for about two months they told us it wasn't a problem, until everyone finally stopped being sporting about not using the completely OP item at which point they discovered that yes, it was in fact a problem.

And how would countermeasures factor into all this?  Also party matchmaking issues at the very least has very much only shown up starting with Ascension.

Edited by tBanzai, September 25 2013 - 01:47 AM.


#18 tektzby

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Posted September 25 2013 - 01:48 AM

They should listen to community oki, but MWO and Hawken are two diametrically different thingies and trust me, they listen. If i compare it with support on CCP (Eve/Dust 514) or Zombie (Blacklight: Tango down/Retribution), our boyos from Hawken are supperior in any way. And you should be grand for their game, support etc.

Edited by tektzby, September 25 2013 - 01:49 AM.


#19 Teljaxx

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Posted September 25 2013 - 01:49 AM

View PostSirCannonFodder, on September 25 2013 - 01:36 AM, said:

I think there's a few things most of the community can agree on. For example, being able to one-shot an entire class of mech is bad. Being able to make a mech entirely defenseless for 7 seconds at the push of a button is bad. Matching parties with random people so the balance is completely screwed up is bad. These are all things the devs apparently disagree(d) with.

This is a perfect example of what happens when there is not enough communication between the Devs and the community. We have no idea why they had made things that way in the first place. Did they simply not notice that there were certain combinations of attacks that could insta-kill an A-Class? Or did they do that on purpose, and not realize that it was unfair?

If they tell us why they make the changes that they do, it goes a long way towards both helping the players trust the developers, and towards helping the developers make the game more satisfying for everyone.

And of course, communication has to be good in the other direction, too. Having too many purely negative and angry responses to the Devs decisions can make them want to ignore the community, including the good feedback. From what I saw, this was probably a big part of what made PGI start ignoring the MWO forums at first. There were far more angry and insulting responses to most of their changes than good feedback, and they ended up making it look like there was nothing but rage to be found on the forums.
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#20 SirCannonFodder

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Posted September 25 2013 - 01:50 AM

View PosttBanzai, on September 25 2013 - 01:46 AM, said:

And how would countermeasures factor into all this?  Also party matchmaking issues at the very least has very much only shown up starting with Ascension.
Countermeasures is another thing people strongly disagreed with, since a player that spends money on an HC doubler can afford to use them twice as much as a normal player. I still haven't used any of the 15 they originally gave me.

Edited by SirCannonFodder, September 25 2013 - 01:50 AM.

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