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I'm curious why so many people seem to be happy about the removal of the K/D on the scoreboard in TDM


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#1 Rhoastabotch

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Posted September 14 2013 - 12:27 AM

I'm honestly curious and want to know, so don't flame me.  I never gave that much of a fuzzy bunny about my K/D.  Honest.  It never used to get above 1.5 or so because I always strived to be the guy who switched teams to the losing side when things were really uneven.  It's a well known scientifically proven and totally not made up fact that close games are exactly 347% more fun than not close games.

I think removing the K/D on the scoreboard in a deathmatch is silly though.  I keep reading K/D doesn't matter, K/D could be "abused".  How?  How does being involved in the scoring of a point for your team while managing to not die very often not matter in TDM?  How is that not better than scoring the same amount of points from kills and assists but dieing every time you run into the other team?

From the point of view of a TDM player, what was wrong with having the two metrics?  You got points (Xp or whatever) for doing damage to mech that eventually was killed, and didn't get many points for just getting the last shot.  You were also ranked at the end for having the most points, which I always thought was awesome and fair.  If you were aggressive and died a lot but got a lot of ultimately useful damage done, you got a lot of points and were ranked highly.

This is still the case which I think is cool.  But why remove the other really important metric for how much you are helping you team by not dieing?  I guess what's bothering me the most about this is that I found keeping a 1.0+ K/D to be important, not because I think it's important on it's own (for epeen status), but because TDMs are just as much about not dieing.  Best way to do that is with teamwork and positioning.  Or in other words, not going off on your own and feeding the other team kills the whole match.

With the matchmaking and auto"balancing" the way it is, I've been placed on a team that is getting rocked in what seems like 50% of my games.  I always used to find it motivating and fun to try to put up a respectable K/D ratio at the end of the match.  I miss that motivation.  Now all you see is the score, which when your team is doing poorly, is going to be pretty fuzzy bunny.  But before if I managed to stay around 4-5 or 5-6  with the rest of my team getting rocked,  fuzzy bunny'an'A I'll take it.

Please explain to me why I should be happy about this change so that I can try to be.  I will honestly appreciate it.

-Rhoast

*Editing this post for clarity, I only meant to argue my points in regards to Team Deathmatch games.  It's the only mode I play, and is the only mode I meant to reference.  Forgive me, it was like 3am in morning and I could have been more clear.*

Edited by Rhoastabotch, September 14 2013 - 01:08 PM.


#2 FakeName

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Posted September 14 2013 - 12:52 AM

View PostRhoastabotch, on September 14 2013 - 12:27 AM, said:

This is still the case which I think is cool.  But why remove the other really important metric for how much you are helping you team by not dieing?  I guess what's bothering me the most about this is that I found keeping a 1.0+ K/D to be important, not because I think it's important on it's own (for epeen status), but because TDMs are just as much about not dieing.  Best way to do that is with teamwork and positioning.  Or in other words, not going off on your own and feeding the other team kills the whole match.


-Rhoast

Exactly, now I don't know who of my teammates is dying so often while I have a KDR of 10:2 and the teamscore is still 16:16. Noone to blame at, that's the reason. The majority of the community seems to be psychological weak and can't manage some agressive "noob" words in the chat.

No but srsly. You are absolutely right. Removing the KDR leads to less teamwork in my opinion because you don't know with wich teammate you are going to fight successfully or die successfully. You don't know wich teammate you have to avoid to survive.

We miss you KDR stats :(

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#3 Guest_f_error_*

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Posted September 14 2013 - 01:01 AM

View PostRhoastabotch, on September 14 2013 - 12:27 AM, said:

I always strived to be the guy who switched teams to the losing side when things were really uneven.
Much better than being the guy who switches to the winning team, to lower their chances. ;)
(I played both roles, before the best button got removed)

K/D is not weighted, scores are. Its just not as "in your face" when you look at those numbers. It takes a bit away from the focus on your individual achievements.
Might change, if we all adapt that K/D feel to scores.
I'd prefer the desire for good K/D would bring people more to DM instead of party pubstomps though.

I like the direction with removing KDA (in TEAM modes), but i think they should progress further. They should add more team oriented performance info. It would be great if the game could evaluate your play at least a bit and give hints, who is flanking successful, who is dying while running around confused, who is taking tows for its mates etc.
To some degree that needs high level analysis, but with hawkens current internal numbers a nice part of that would already be possible.
Instead of calling the weak player a "noob" or attacking him and telling him to stay back, the game should give some info on who might need assistance. First step, just based on performance, second step based on style of play.

Don't bring back KDA in TDM. Give us more and better team oriented info! Do something innovative!

Edited by f_error, September 14 2013 - 01:05 AM.


#4 TheVulong

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Posted September 14 2013 - 01:32 AM

They removed enemy scores to stop silly "who's score is longer higher" contests. Seems wise.

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#5 G4M5T3R

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Posted September 14 2013 - 01:45 AM

This Is one of the things I love about the Ascension patch.
The devs are known for hiding the numbers and these were some of the best ones to hide. It changes things in the same way that K/D/R doesn't put you at the top of the scoreboard, XP does. Once the XP farm exploits have been balanced out it's just one more way to emphasize focus on defining player skill.* Besides, your k/d/a is still visible on the scoreboard.

Edited by G4M5T3R, September 14 2013 - 01:48 AM.

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#6 Countrygal

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Posted September 14 2013 - 01:53 AM

Am I wrong that K/D is visible in someones profile? I sneaked in some profiles of friends yesterday and was able to see K/D ratio
If someone is interested in, he always can see how good or "bad" someone other is.  :( And maybe there are some pilots who sort them out because they don´t want to have us this people in the team.

Please excuse grammatical errors, English is not my first language.  Thanks!


#7 havoc5

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Posted September 14 2013 - 02:01 AM

View PostCountrygal, on September 14 2013 - 01:53 AM, said:

Am I wrong that K/D is visible in someones profile? I sneaked in some profiles of friends yesterday and was able to see K/D ratio
If someone is interested in, he always can see how good or "bad" someone other is.  :( And maybe there are some pilots who sort them out because they don´t want to have us this people in the team.

That's lifetime K/D, not K/D for the match.

I don't mind not seeing K/D for MA/Siege, but no K/D for DM/TDM is really odd, considering they revolve entirely around kills and deaths. DM/TDM are literally modes to see who's K/D is higher.

Score doesnt even matter in TDM. Two people could have the same score with 2 kills, but if one guy is 2-0 and the other guy is 2-10, the second guy's actual net worth is -8. Or someone could have the highest score with 10 kills, but if he also has 20 deaths, he basically lost the match for your team. Unless they change it to use total score instead of kills to determine the winner, K/D is the only relevant stat for TDM.

Maybe they should change TDM to use total score instead of kills. But they also need to change how score is calculated. IMO deaths should decrease your score (but not into the negatives, and exp earned will never decrease). That way people can't just suicide the entire match and still expect a decent score.

Edited by havoc5, September 14 2013 - 02:27 AM.


#8 Nept

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Posted September 14 2013 - 02:06 AM

The problem is that the TDM player who goes 1 and 0 is preferable to the player that goes 5 and 20 - a fact that's not displayed by points.

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#9 Countrygal

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Posted September 14 2013 - 02:07 AM

Lifetime K/D is more terrible as match K/D :D When I you have a bad lifetime ratio it means I am you are always bad in your matches?

Oh dear....

Edited by Countrygal, September 14 2013 - 02:09 AM.

Please excuse grammatical errors, English is not my first language.  Thanks!


#10 ONX05

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Posted September 14 2013 - 02:17 AM

Simply put, points puts massive emphasis on who does the most damage, and removes a lot of the motivation for 'kill stealing' while also making things feel less harsh for those who do a bunch of damage but don't get the final shot in.

That said, I think you raise a lot of good points, and I was originally miffed at the removal. As Havoc said, it kinda makes sense in the Deathmatch modes. Also, I still feel like it's a useful statistic, especially as someone with some A-class experience- I always enjoy taking out the nearly-deads who would've gotten away otherwise, or who were about to repair. Because, they would've healed themselves, and then no one would've gotten any points. Having low points but a high kill count shows that you were dedicated to taking out escapees, and the high-point players would always end up ahead of you on the scoreboard anyway.

So I've seen the logic behind their removal, but personally I think changing how the information is presented could also work. Make points the biggest, most prominent number, immediately to the right of your name, and then have K/D/A in smaller text further away, and it becomes obvious what's going to be valued most. Still, it's the Dev's call, I don't see any reason to get flustered over it either way.

#11 FakeName

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Posted September 14 2013 - 02:59 AM

View PostCountrygal, on September 14 2013 - 01:53 AM, said:

And maybe there are some pilots who sort them out because they don´t want to have us this people in the team.

Some pilots like me. I preafre palying alone because of bad teammates. Especially in TDM.

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#12 Countrygal

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Posted September 14 2013 - 03:04 AM

Well....straight, if nothing else. I will remember to stay away from you ;)

Edited by Countrygal, September 14 2013 - 03:05 AM.

Please excuse grammatical errors, English is not my first language.  Thanks!


#13 Str8Jacket223

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Posted September 14 2013 - 03:26 AM

For me it's a psychological thing. I've noticed I've been doing alot better the last couple of days because i'm not constantly looking at my scoreboard now. Also please don't berate the players at the bottom of the scoreboard even if they are doing bad. Not everyone can be good after all. I like it how it is now.
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#14 Guest_f_error_*

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Posted September 14 2013 - 03:31 AM

View PostStr8Jacket223, on September 14 2013 - 03:26 AM, said:

Not everyone can be good after all.
One of the fundamental truths most people forget. Actually a lot of players HAVE to be bad, so that others can be good.

#15 Flagge69

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Posted September 14 2013 - 03:59 AM

View PostFakeName, on September 14 2013 - 12:52 AM, said:


The majority of the community seems to be psychological weak and can't manage some agressive "noob" words in the chat.
.

let see it the other way

even if I am near the bottom of the board,
I usally have positive K/D ratio (thx to internals)

I would like others to see this, because I am psycholigical weak I guess.

but I never was accused of being a noob myself,
yesterday soemone rferred to me as elite, cause
I like to taunt people after a kill when ever possible ....

seriously, I liked they put this
in the old version of the game, but noone is doing it ... killcam anyone?

or droping some nice holo.signs
alongside a Barricade (best troll.tool in game)

#16 RedVan

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Posted September 14 2013 - 04:09 AM

Points don't mean fuzzy bunny in TDM. TDM is won by kills, not points. The only time points win is when each team has equal kills.

KD is inherently what TDM is all about. Removing it is just stupid. It's like an attempt at being politically correct or something. "Lets not offend people by showing KD's. We want everyone to feel good about themselves. Score high and feel good about yourself, even if your KD led to the opposing team winning"

#17 SEMMERLING

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Posted September 14 2013 - 04:11 AM

Look no further than "Extended Play" philosophy. It is the disease that is rotting out the core of this game.

K/D is gone because in this soft and cuddly world, nobody should feel as if they are not a winner.
You are playing here because you love pay as you play tweaking, it is what you really want to spend you time doing.
We cannot balance the chassis to the point where the glaring imbalances are revealing themselves in the K/D credits so we have stopped K/D all together. You won;t miss it after a while...have you seen the new loader? Its on special!
Too many depressed non-champions, wait team-champions-to-be, and they may not stick around while we....we...
You are a winner...a winner in waiting....a winner seeking the new Armorplast Shielding...

Edited by SEMMERLING, September 14 2013 - 04:17 AM.


#18 -Tj-

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Posted September 14 2013 - 04:48 AM

Initially, I understood why the K/D was removed, but then I slowly started to remember that they were useful for a lot of things. If I see a player on the enemy team at the bottom and is obviously doing badly, and my team is doing ok, I'll try not to kill that mech. Conversely, if I'm at the bottom and I can see that my deaths are much higher than the rest of my team, I know I need to back off from the front lines a bit so the enemy team doesn't get more kills on me. The KDA can also show players who have been doing a lot of assisting, reflected in their XP score, or players who've mainly been stealing kills and have low XP but high kill counts. Etc., etc.

So! That said, the removal of this information has become a problem for me because I can't see information I could use to assess the status of the game.

View PostRedVan, on September 14 2013 - 04:09 AM, said:

Points don't mean fuzzy bunny in TDM. TDM is won by kills, not points. The only time points win is when each team has equal kills.
And in that case, the totals aren't shown and nobody would have a clue as to why one team won over the other (unless they knew why from previous versions). At the very least, I'd like to see XP totals for each team at the end of a match. At least this way if the match looks fairly even toward the end, but the enemy team has more XP, then my team knows we have to win by at least 1 kill to win, else we'll lose in a tie.

#19 Guest_f_error_*

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Posted September 14 2013 - 05:30 AM

View Post-Tj-, on September 14 2013 - 04:48 AM, said:

If I see a player on the enemy team at the bottom and is obviously doing badly, and my team is doing ok, I'll try not to kill that mech.
The norm is, you see the bottom player, you break formation and try to hunt the poor guy down for an easy kill, before someone else does.
That's what effective play is about. I feel its a bit reduced since the update, but i could be wrong.

#20 Leonhardt

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Posted September 14 2013 - 05:48 AM

The arbitrary points shown in the menu is so meaningless that I don't even look at the scoreboard anymore. There is no good information to be had other than my ping.

I've noticed some things about the points on the scoreboard. It has little to do with K/D and everything to do with how much you spread damage. People using sustained weapons with any kind of decent skill easily gain assist points all across the map by spraying anyone they see. They then get a large portion of points for doing very little other than spraying bullets at anyone they see.

While I don't much care about that I would like to see what their K/D is because if someone on my team is doing poorly or is getting a large number of assists with a number of deaths then that means I need to watch over them. Its how I know who on my team needs help. Not everyone uses K/D as a way to fuzzy bunny at their teammates.

Edited by Leonhardt, September 14 2013 - 05:48 AM.

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