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The Scout and the Controversy


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#1 LordTemujin

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Posted January 03 2014 - 05:54 PM

So, I was having a conversation with somebody earlier and it kinda struck me that the Scout in its current incarnation, despite the nerf that came out recently is stronger than it ever was Pre-Ascension and It begs the question Why.

The scout has always had speed, a get out of death free card, always had almost zero dodge timer and has always had flak, what changed that made it go from decent to WTF Fuzzy Bunny stupid.

The only thing that really stands out are...Internals.

When they released them either they weren't thinking properly...or they were thinking that having a scout with infinite sustain as well as a bottomless fuel tank was a good thing.

The internals currently available synchronize far too perfectly with an unkillable bursty monster. with Adv Repair arm and extractor they can pull endless life pool fuzzy bunny which I am certain other people have noticed.

I was doing testing against Hestoned because..well, who better?

Your chances of killing a scout with even one repair node on the ground are approx 1/4 simply because of how POWERFUL the orbtank that top tier scouts can pull is.

He tried to shrug it off as mobility but we played maybe a dozen matches and the results were consistant. When I killed him, it was always well away from orbs. Wether he began the engage or not, if he had the ability to soak orb there was nil chance of me dropping him. However without an orb..well he died just like any other skilled player.

I notice the same thing with other players that specialize in the scout, jeffmagnum, cond0m etc. With an orb available you may as well give up and walk away.

I make this post because honestly I do NOT think the scout is OP, I don't think the flak needs a nerf as it will hurt the brawler and honestly it IS effective on the scout when he doesn't have the health pool of a brawler. I make this post because the internals available are broken as hell and need a fix. If they fixed the internals it would bring the scout more in line with the other classes.

Anybody else noticing the same thing or is it just QQ scout OP time?


100hp/MK3 Adv Repair Arm/Extractor

Class-HP-Time to consume orb- Amount consumed
Scout 590 5.5seconds  286
Infil 600 6 second   286
Zerker 550 5 second 286
Tech 570 5.5 seconds 286
Reaper 380 4 seconds 286

Bruiser 810 5 seconds 286
Predator 780 6 seconds 286
Assault 810 4.5 seconds 286
Raider 800 5 seconds 286
CRT 870 6 seconds 286
Sharpshooter 690 5 seconds 286

Vangaurd 980 4.5 286
Brawler 1050  4 seconds  286
Rocketeer 980 5 seconds 286
Grenadier 960 4.5 seconds 286
Edit: regen values

Edited by LordTemujin, January 07 2014 - 12:26 PM.

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#2 Exeon

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Posted January 03 2014 - 06:19 PM

I think this is a good internal combination and the scout is not a problem, people just don't know how to hit players who use its mobility properly so it seems strong. Go fight any skilled player in a raider around health orbs, I guarantee he walks out with more health than the scout did.

View PostDew, on April 04 2014 - 01:15 PM, said:

There's a difference between making the hoop 14 feet high and telling all the players that you have to wait for half a second after running before you can shoot the ball.


#3 peacecraftSLD

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Posted January 03 2014 - 06:19 PM

View PostLordTemujin, on January 03 2014 - 05:54 PM, said:

So, I was having a conversation with somebody earlier and it kinda struck me that the Scout in its current incarnation, despite the nerf that came out recently is stronger than it ever was Pre-Ascension and It begs the question Why.

The scout has always had speed, a get out of death free card, always had almost zero dodge timer and has always had flak, what changed that made it go from decent to WTF Fuzzy Bunny stupid.

The only thing that really stands out are...Internals.

When they released them either they weren't thinking properly...or they were thinking that having a scout with infinite sustain as well as a bottomless fuel tank was a good thing.

The internals currently available synchronize far too perfectly with an unkillable bursty monster. with Adv Repair arm and extractor they can pull endless life pool fuzzy bunny which I am certain other people have noticed.

I was doing testing against Hestoned because..well, who better?

Your chances of killing a scout with even one repair node on the ground are approx 1/4 simply because of how POWERFUL the orbtank that top tier scouts can pull is.

He tried to shrug it off as mobility but we played maybe a dozen matches and the results were consistant. When I killed him, it was always well away from orbs. Wether he began the engage or not, if he had the ability to soak orb there was nil chance of me dropping him. However without an orb..well he died just like any other skilled player.

I notice the same thing with other players that specialize in the scout, jeffmagnum, cond0m etc. With an orb available you may as well give up and walk away.

I make this post because honestly I do NOT think the scout is OP, I don't think the flak needs a nerf as it will hurt the brawler and honestly it IS effective on the scout when he doesn't have the health pool of a brawler. I make this post because the internals available are broken as hell and need a fix. If they fixed the internals it would bring the scout more in line with the other classes.

Anybody else noticing the same thing or is it just QQ scout OP time?

I like this analysis. Never thought or noticed it. I never had a problem with Scouts but this does give me something to think about.

#4 FenixStryk

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Posted January 03 2014 - 06:23 PM

The last thing I want to see about Scout debates is the phrase "Teach the Controversy".

By design, the Scout will never be bad. It will always be one of the best 1v1 Mechs in the game, and it should therefore be no surprise that the Mech that won Saturnine's 1v1 tournament was the Scout. It has Flak+TOW, Heat+TOW, the fastest movement speed in the game, the shortest dodge cooldown in the game, an inherent fuel restoration ability that for whatever reason has had an additional speed boost tied to it, and is tied for the smallest hitbox. The only thing bad about this Mech is its low health pool and small fuel tank, both of which can be counteracted with tuning, items and internals (see: +100 Armor, Repair Charge III, Shield I, Adv. Repair Kit, Fuel Converter, etc.) -- not to mention play style, since the fastest Mech will inherently also be the best Mech at avoiding and resetting unfavorable situations.

I would approach Scout and Internal adjustments with caution as its current position is somewhat precarious. If we keep taking away from Armor and Fuel, we'll reach a point where the values simply aren't serviceable.

I'm not going to make significant suggestions since I frankly don't play enough these days, but I will close with the following:
1) Hawken is not a 1v1 game; it is a 6v6 game, and as guns multiply the Scout's low armor and fuel become highly susceptible to focus fire and tactical wrangling.
2) As skill level increases, it becomes harder for the Scout to employ its modus operandi. On a theoretical level, a point is reached where every attack becomes a damage trade; in this scenario, a Scout is the poorest performer.

As of yet, I do not think the Scout is in need of further adjustment. Rather, Internals are simply boring and the Flak has too much DPS for its own good. Beyond that, I only see need for a fundamental change across the board in pursuit of faster movement. Pinpointed change is largely unnecessary.

It was fun while it lasted.


#5 Xacius

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Posted January 03 2014 - 06:24 PM

View PostLordTemujin, on January 03 2014 - 05:54 PM, said:

I was doing testing against Hestoned because..well, who better?

Hi.
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#6 nepacaka

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Posted January 03 2014 - 06:28 PM

I every time say, repair time, and repair orb need be in percentage =D.

Against flak nerf. Maybe you forgot, but before ascention devs nerf flak to 100 or 110 dmg, and it was really bad. Then he will flak back, cuz he really sux in this time.

Some variants change flak (many whine instead)
- decrease heating
- Decrease dmg to 95
- Increase fire rate.
This little change playstyle on flak. Less burst.

Also, problem in scout (and like it was in brawler) - his speed.
Scout need
- decrease top speed on -3m/s
- Increase HP to 510-610max.
- Increase dodge on +0.042
- Decrease bonus speed in ability.
In my opinion.

I say many times, and I say again. Problem in not flak. Brawler have flak - and it's working fine. Problem in scout speed. Scout must be faster than other mech, but not fast like a supersonic.

Edited by nepacaka, January 03 2014 - 06:29 PM.


#7 LordTemujin

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Posted January 03 2014 - 06:37 PM

View PostFenixStryk, on January 03 2014 - 06:23 PM, said:


2) As skill level increases, it becomes harder for the Scout to employ its modus operandi. On a theoretical level, a point is reached where every attack becomes a damage trade; in this scenario, a Scout is the poorest performer.


In these DM's was both Dermax and Comic as well as several other decent players, the results are the same and the trades are hilarious as during a 2v1 he would tank off a single orb, clip one person and then tank off that persons orb, rinse and repeat. Numbers didn't matter because with the Adv rep/Extr at no point did he stop regenning.

View PostXacius, on January 03 2014 - 06:24 PM, said:

View PostLordTemujin, on January 03 2014 - 05:54 PM, said:

I was doing testing against Hestoned because..well, who better?

Hi.
You weren't online :(
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#8 Dew

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Posted January 03 2014 - 06:38 PM

I often hear the suggestion to swap Flak for Bolt on the Scout and I don't think that's a bad idea. Or give the Scout its own Flak variant, which has also been suggested quite often.

The Scout itself is not the problem. Miniflak Scout and HEAT Scout do not pose the same threat even remotely. The Flak is not the problem, it is balanced just fine on a Brawler.

It's the combination. Scout + Flak is the problem.

Edited by Dew, January 03 2014 - 06:38 PM.


#9 Xacius

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Posted January 03 2014 - 06:41 PM

View PostXacius, on January 03 2014 - 06:24 PM, said:

View PostLordTemujin, on January 03 2014 - 05:54 PM, said:

I was doing testing against Hestoned because..well, who better?

Hi.

View PostLordTemujin, on January 03 2014 - 05:54 PM, said:

You weren't online :(

Shoot me a PM ^_^

Regarding the Scout - I think the main problem is the fuel converter.  It was balanced around its small fuel tank, and the fuel converter circumvents that.

Edited by Xacius, January 03 2014 - 06:41 PM.

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#10 ShadowWarg

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Posted January 03 2014 - 06:44 PM

Change the scout specs (like lowing the effectiveness of its heat management ) not the weapon. If you change the weapon then you have to consider the effects it would have on the other mechs that us it.

#11 LordTemujin

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Posted January 03 2014 - 06:46 PM

View PostXacius, on January 03 2014 - 06:41 PM, said:

View PostXacius, on January 03 2014 - 06:24 PM, said:

View PostLordTemujin, on January 03 2014 - 05:54 PM, said:

I was doing testing against Hestoned because..well, who better?

Hi.

View PostLordTemujin, on January 03 2014 - 05:54 PM, said:

You weren't online :(

Shoot me a PM ^_^

Regarding the Scout - I think the main problem is the fuel converter.  It was balanced around its small fuel tank, and the fuel converter circumvents that.

Definately will. He was running Adv Repair arm/extr and FC1% so I don't much think it was that, I wasn't having massive problems with him away from the orbs. I mean..its Hestoned so its always interesting but it was when he could just LULNOHEALTHPOOL with the internals it was insane. I have tried running the same thing on a couple different classes and it is good, don't get me wrong but it isn't broken. I tested it on the scout and things just went..broke.Between the scouts dodge ability and being able to regen 100hp every 2 seconds you just can't KILL the freakin guy, even with multiple skilled players making the attempt.

Scouts are Fine, Flak is fine, Scouts with this internal combination are jokers.
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#12 nepacaka

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Posted January 03 2014 - 06:46 PM

Actually combination Heat+scout more scary for me in fight. If high skill pilots use this, scout attacking from distance, and if you not play on scout too, you no chance catch up him, cuz his dislocated like bullet every time. Again, because of his speed...

#13 FenixStryk

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Posted January 03 2014 - 06:48 PM

View PostLordTemujin, on January 03 2014 - 06:37 PM, said:

In these DM's was both Dermax and Comic as well as several other decent players, the results are the same and the trades are hilarious as during a 2v1 he would tank off a single orb, clip one person and then tank off that persons orb, rinse and repeat. Numbers didn't matter because with the Adv rep/Extr at no point did he stop regenning.
That's true, although it's not something I touched on. Balance changes significantly in DM as the necessary stats to perform are dissimilar to the rest of the game. A good DM Mech is a good Vulture, one capable of moving to and from fights quickly while outputting safe damage. The Scout and Berserker come to mind as the best DM Mechs in my opinion.

It was fun while it lasted.


#14 LordTemujin

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Posted January 03 2014 - 06:49 PM

View Postnepacaka, on January 03 2014 - 06:46 PM, said:

Actually combination Heat+scout more scary for me in fight. If high skill pilots use this, scout attacking from distance, and if you not play on scout too, you no chance catch up him, cuz his dislocated like bullet every time. Again, because of his speed...

Comic_sans was running heat, without the internal combination. Me and him were averaging a 5 point score difference in 3 out of 4 matches.

I would say heat scout is on par with heat infil.
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#15 Exeon

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Posted January 03 2014 - 06:52 PM

There is the simple fact that you're trying to balance a mech based on your experience in Deathmatch, mentioned previously by other people.

View PostDew, on April 04 2014 - 01:15 PM, said:

There's a difference between making the hoop 14 feet high and telling all the players that you have to wait for half a second after running before you can shoot the ball.


#16 nepacaka

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Posted January 03 2014 - 06:53 PM

Quote

I would say heat scout is on par with heat infil.

I mean heat scout vs c-class =3

Edited by nepacaka, January 03 2014 - 06:54 PM.


#17 phed

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Posted January 03 2014 - 06:54 PM

for best dm mechs i'd rank the inf and ss right there w/ the scout and zerker.  all of these mechs have the ability to dictate the fight on their own terms and exel in a particular niche that allows them to seemlessly attack the map.

#18 LordTemujin

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Posted January 03 2014 - 06:56 PM

View PostExeon, on January 03 2014 - 06:52 PM, said:

There is the simple fact that you're trying to balance a mech based on your experience in Deathmatch, mentioned previously by other people.

Because DM's internals vary somehow from TDM's internals.

Using DM to test the Veracity or how...well balanced a build is makes no appreciable difference to  doing it in TDM
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#19 h0B0

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Posted January 03 2014 - 06:57 PM

The scout gets proportionately more armor out of orbs than every single other mech in the game.

Also, the scout is one of the rare mechs that got nearly only buffs in ascension. It got a minor health nerf, but its speed got increased (which is even more problematic since mobility was nerfed across the board). And the scout got a flak buff during ascension.

Click me! I dare you.

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View Post[HWK]HUGHES, on March 15 2013 - 08:35 PM, said:

Oh don't always listen to h0B0. Lol.


#20 Exeon

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Posted January 03 2014 - 06:58 PM

Yeah you're right, there isn't much difference in a team of players shooting at you as you stand still on a health orb vs 1-2.

View PostDew, on April 04 2014 - 01:15 PM, said:

There's a difference between making the hoop 14 feet high and telling all the players that you have to wait for half a second after running before you can shoot the ball.





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