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Does your mech feel heavy?


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#1 h0B0

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Posted June 17 2013 - 11:47 AM

Hello fellow Hawkenite. My question for you today is simple. Does your mech feel heavy? What instances in the game serve to reinforce this feeling? In what aspect do these instances improve on the players experience?

Before i answer these questions myself i would like to state why i am asking you such questions. HWK devs have stated multiple times in the past that they wish to promote a feeling of heavyness in Hawken. I would like to help HWK by providing them with my feelings, experience and understanding of the game as it currently stands. And i am convinced they would be glad to hear your opinion as well.

Does my mech feel heavy? Yes, it feels heavy and ill equipped.

What instances in the game serve to reinforce this feeling?
In what aspect do these instances improve on the players experience?
  • PhysX: Have you ever seen a feather boost through a wall? I did not think so,
  • Mobility: There is both some positive and some negative here. Boosting, acceleration, dodge timers all serve to improve the feeling of heaviness. However, loss of momentum  massive discrepencies in between a's and c's, turret mode, don't serve to promote a positive gaming experience and don't serve to promote a feel of heaviness. The mechs only end up feeling ill equiped to do the task required of them (mobile combat). More emphasis on fuel consumption, more diversity in maneuverability, conservation of momentum would improve both the players experience and the feeling of heaviness.
  • Audio: The feeling of heaviness is also noticeable in the sounds of hawken. Sadly it sometimes fall short. Getting hit by tracers usually result in the sound of a tin can being hit by a bb gun. I require more gameplay with higher volume to give more feedback on this.
  • UI: Does the UI promote "the feel"? I don't know. It should though. How do we fix this, i don't know. But one thing is sure the starting sequence in siege does nothing to help. Once again it only makes me believe the machine i am piloting is ill equipped to jump into battle. Having the mechs drop from a BS or even launching them from the EU pods in base would put the emphasis on the mech, and its environment and therefore possibly increase "the feel".
  • Perspective: Currently in the game we have 2 very different perspectives. We have the garage with giant humans that can barely fit in a scout. Whilst on the battlefield we have tiny cargo trucks and minuscule sky scrapers. Map design also plays a very important role in perspective. Valkyrie pulled it off pretty well, but has some other issues.
  • Garage: More than the giant mecanos. The optimizations and general mech upgrades have no "feel". A simple fix to this would be to implement a visual representation of mech parts into the menu. This could be an inventory system like MW where one can visualize his sidegrades on his mech. Or even something as simple as the camera zooming on a specific part of your mech when hovering/picking a specific sidegrade. ( Yes i said sidegrade. New system is coming out... eventually...:( )
  • Turn rate cap: Could potentially improve the feeling of heaviness if it were properly implemented. Sadly as it stands, the player has to notice this tiny little icon in his overly cluttered crosshairs and associate that icon with his capped turn rate. The player has little to no clue as to why his turn rate is capped, and this can lead to frustration. MWO has a turn rate cap but manages to display it very efficiently and also offers more twitch precision aiming.
  • Lore: Allows for  easier suspension of disbelief. But opens up a whole can of worms. Considering we have managed interstellar travel and developed floaty ore technologies. Why are the mechs so clumsily heavy.

I think that pretty much covers it. To resume it all. I believe the feeling of heaviness in Hawken has a lot to improve on and it should impede as little as possible on gameplay experience.

You are all welcomed to discuss your perspective and provide your suggestions.

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View Post[HWK]HUGHES, on March 15 2013 - 08:35 PM, said:

Oh don't always listen to h0B0. Lol.


#2 Skylead

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Posted June 17 2013 - 12:02 PM

I actually like the boot sequence in Siege. However, I would change it so that people joining the match late should go straight to full HUD so they can see where everyone is.

#3 Teljaxx

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Posted June 17 2013 - 12:31 PM

I agree that Hawken has a good feeling of piloting a big heavy war machine in some aspects, but falls short in others.

One of the main places that it falls short in my opinion is the sounds of the mechs themselves. Not their footsteps, those are pretty good, even if the hissing leg actuator sounds do not always match up with the footstep timing. I mean that the metallic sounds of the mechs, like the transformation of the Corsair, and the garage startup sequences do not sound right. They are way too hollow, and sound more like an empty soda can with a bundle of wires rattling around in it than a big heavy machine. And the way that the mechs jiggle around does not help with this, because it is too fast, and makes them seem smaller and lighter than they are supposed to be. And as you said, the clank that they used for the sound of a mech getting hit has this same problem. It sounds more like shooting a tin can with a BB gun than a high caliber bullet hitting armor plating.

Overall, the mech sounds make them feel more like the "robots" in this awful show, and not the armored war machines they should be.

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#4 tman7919

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Posted June 17 2013 - 12:33 PM

Sometimes yes and no. I like your points to see Hawken mechs be close to their actual weight/size.
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#5 ShadowGTR

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Posted June 17 2013 - 12:36 PM

View PostSkylead, on June 17 2013 - 12:02 PM, said:

I actually like the boot sequence in Siege. However, I would change it so that people joining the match late should go straight to full HUD so they can see where everyone is.

+1. I especially love it when it has "failures". "My mech just had 2 failures on the main systems! How is it functioning?!" :D

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#6 angryhampster

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Posted June 17 2013 - 12:36 PM

if u want ur B mech to feel  lighter, play a C class for a day, and then instnatly switch to B.

the difference in speed will make you a better player overall, in such a short time.  

I played on my new CRT all the way to 25, then when i switched instnatly to my EOC infiltrator, i had wings, and sweeped the entire team.
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#7 cH_aos

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Posted June 17 2013 - 01:16 PM

Hey h0B0 glad you brought this up. I dont think they are far from having a nice heavy mech feel, some of the points you brought up would definitely help.

One thing I had not noticed that you brought up is the size inconsistency between the humans in the garage vs the vehicles instanced in the maps. Not a huge deal but would be nice to have the real approximate size for one or the other.

Sound- Different footstep sounds depending on surface would be nice, if my mech is running in sand vs on metal it would sound very different, it would add some contrast and could help the overall immersion. The weapons sound powerful enough but I also agree with you that getting hit still sounds a bit underwhelming.

UI- I dont get why the mechs have to boot up for siege but not for any other game modes. I think it is a really cool touch, keep it in, add it for every mode but have them all on the same timer, it would start at the beginning of the round and if you miss it then no big deal.

Mech Models- Having internals show up on the mech would be really awesome.

The mech boosting through the wall at GDC bugged me a little bit, im worried the walls will feel like cardboard. If you take damage falling from high up.. then boosting full speed into a 3 meter concrete wall would most likely leave a dent as well.

Edited by cH_aos, June 17 2013 - 01:17 PM.


#8 Kazma

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Posted June 17 2013 - 01:17 PM

View Postangryhampster, on June 17 2013 - 12:36 PM, said:

if u want ur B mech to feel  lighter, play a C class for a day, and then instnatly switch to B.

the difference in speed will make you a better player overall, in such a short time.  

I played on my new CRT all the way to 25, then when i switched instnatly to my EOC infiltrator, i had wings, and sweeped the entire team.
this is like ... completely unrelated to this topic ^^
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#9 Teljaxx

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Posted June 17 2013 - 01:22 PM

View PostcH_aos, on June 17 2013 - 01:16 PM, said:

Sound- Different footstep sounds depending on surface would be nice, if my mech is running in sand vs on metal it would sound very different, it would add some contrast and could help the overall immersion. The weapons sound powerful enough but I also agree with you that getting hit still sounds a bit underwhelming.

There actually are differences in the footstep sounds in a few places, there just are not that many. If you walk around on the sand on Bazaar in a Type-C mech, it sound radically different from walking on pavement.

There should definitely be more differentiation between sounds when walking on different surfaces, though. And different bullet impact sounds depending on what they hit as well. Not just between hitting a mech and hitting the ground, but between hitting sand and hitting metal as well.
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#10 angryhampster

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Posted June 17 2013 - 01:24 PM

And this is why i was a C student in college
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#11 KejiGoto

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Posted June 17 2013 - 01:27 PM

View Posth0B0, on June 17 2013 - 11:47 AM, said:

  • PhysX: Have you ever seen a feather boost through a wall? I did not think so,
  • Mobility: There is both some positive and some negative here. Boosting, acceleration, dodge timers all serve to improve the feeling of heaviness. However, loss of momentum  massive discrepencies in between a's and c's, turret mode, don't serve to promote a positive gaming experience and don't serve to promote a feel of heaviness. The mechs only end up feeling ill equiped to do the task required of them (mobile combat). More emphasis on fuel consumption, more diversity in maneuverability, conservation of momentum would improve both the players experience and the feeling of heaviness.
  • Audio: The feeling of heaviness is also noticeable in the sounds of hawken. Sadly it sometimes fall short. Getting hit by tracers usually result in the sound of a tin can being hit by a bb gun. I require more gameplay with higher volume to give more feedback on this.
  • UI: Does the UI promote "the feel"? I don't know. It should though. How do we fix this, i don't know. But one thing is sure the starting sequence in siege does nothing to help. Once again it only makes me believe the machine i am piloting is ill equipped to jump into battle. Having the mechs drop from a BS or even launching them from the EU pods in base would put the emphasis on the mech, and its environment and therefore possibly increase "the feel".
  • Perspective: Currently in the game we have 2 very different perspectives. We have the garage with giant humans that can barely fit in a scout. Whilst on the battlefield we have tiny cargo trucks and minuscule sky scrapers. Map design also plays a very important role in perspective. Valkyrie pulled it off pretty well, but has some other issues.
  • Garage: More than the giant mecanos. The optimizations and general mech upgrades have no "feel". A simple fix to this would be to implement a visual representation of mech parts into the menu. This could be an inventory system like MW where one can visualize his sidegrades on his mech. Or even something as simple as the camera zooming on a specific part of your mech when hovering/picking a specific sidegrade. ( Yes i said sidegrade. New system is coming out... eventually... :( )
  • Turn rate cap: Could potentially improve the feeling of heaviness if it were properly implemented. Sadly as it stands, the player has to notice this tiny little icon in his overly cluttered crosshairs and associate that icon with his capped turn rate. The player has little to no clue as to why his turn rate is capped, and this can lead to frustration. MWO has a turn rate cap but manages to display it very efficiently and also offers more twitch precision aiming.
  • Lore: Allows for  easier suspension of disbelief. But opens up a whole can of worms. Considering we have managed interstellar travel and developed floaty ore technologies. Why are the mechs so clumsily heavy.

1.) You're looking at a much older build of Hawken in that video, which I would like to point out is mainly designed to be a proof of concept. The evidence of this being an older build can be seen in the lack of identifying icons next to enemy mech readouts and that Sharp Shooter looking mech that turns up around the 0:52 mark is packing an SA Hawkins and a Grenade Launcher. No Type B mech in the game is capable of using that load out that we know of. This could even be running on a build which allowed players to equip any weapon load out they wanted on any chassis.

With that in mind I don't believe judging the weight of the mechs off that video is a good idea because it isn't currently implemented in the game. I believe we should wait until the destructible environments are playable before we open up that discussion.

2.) Mobility is hit and miss with me. When piloting a Type C I can definitely feel the weight in everything I do. The slow acceleration rates, the movement of the mech as I clomp along, that heavy thud when I land, and the slow flight all adds to the feeling that I'm in a monster of a machine. Type A's on the other hand seem to go from one extreme to the other. Boosting around, dodging, jumping, and general movement gives me the feel that I'm incredibly agile but when you find yourself without fuel or suddenly get caught on a corner I feel like I'm trying to push start a dump truck. It's very jarring and can often leave me frustrated, especially with the uneven geometry of the maps. Type B's, in my opinion, have the best balance of weight versus mobility. I feel the weight when I'm moving, I can feel the heft of the mech when I dodge to the side, but I never feel like I've suddenly gained two tons like I do with Type A's.

The problem here is that mobility is king in Hawken and it leaves very few reasons to go with the mechs that can and will leave you a sitting duck over the ones that allow you to zip around. I feel like the focus on giving the player the sense that they are piloting a heavy mech while also maintaining mobility ends up as a conflict in the end. How do they fix this problem? I'm not really sure as I enjoy both aspects and I feel as if fixing the weight feel for mobility will detract from the fast paced combat and of course the reverse going the other way.

3.) I couldn't agree more. I feel like Hawken needs more bass, those heavy thuds, the kind that rock your core and demand your attention. Certain aspects do an amazing job at conveying this to the player such as that crash you drop to the ground or the thud of your mech walking along. Other aspects such as damage being taken leave much to be desired. I think more interior focused sounds would help bring the player into the idea that their mech is being torn apart by damage. Smoke in the cockpit, sparks flying, lights flashing, these things would definitely get me feeling like I'm in a giant mech.

4.) This one I feel can piggy back off my last idea of interior damage and effects. If things jostled around more, felt more interactive than just an icon on my screen feeding me information, I would feel more involved with my mech. For example the EMP does a great job at reminding me I'm piloting a mech but those are so few and far between that it feels very rare for me to get caught by one. Then when I am caught by the EMP my whole focus isn't on the fact that I lost my interior systems but rather avoiding the person attacking me. If systems went down and had to be repaired I believe this would bring the feel of piloting a mech. If I take X amount of damage suddenly my fuel gauge is gone or I lose my radar, that would get me involved. The screen cracking is a weak display of damage in my opinion and hardly gives the sense that my mech is being torn apart.

5.) I hadn't noticed this until I read this thread but you are absolutely right. The size of the mechs in the garage compared to the world in-game are vastly different. The game world either needs to be scaled to match the garage or the garage needs to be scaled to match the game world.

6.) I like this idea and I think it could extend further than that by showing a break down of the mech for things like internals and where usable items are stored. Whether it is pulling the mech apart piece by piece (like in this trailer here) or simply showing an x-ray view of the mech I think would help to convey the idea that these are massive machines.

7.) Again I agree that this needs to be adjusted though right now I don't have any major issues or complaints with it.

8.) Actually I think the lore does a good job at covering why the world of Hawken is currently in the state it's in. With the Hawken virus having destroyed so much what remains is being pieced together from salvage and is by no means top of the line or new. Supplies are diminishing and people are making do with whatever they can. Perhaps the lore needs to play a stronger role within the game itself to get this idea across. Mechs like the Scout include stuff like this though in their description though I'm guessing very few actually read these.

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#12 Kazma

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Posted June 17 2013 - 01:28 PM

View Posth0B0, on June 17 2013 - 11:47 AM, said:

  • UI: Does the UI promote "the feel"? I don't know. It should though. How do we fix this, i don't know. But one thing is sure the starting sequence in siege does nothing to help. Once again it only makes me believe the machine i am piloting is ill equipped to jump into battle. Having the mechs drop from a BS or even launching them from the EU pods in base would put the emphasis on the mech, and its environment and therefore possibly increase "the feel".
The HUD isn't moving like it's part of the mech, it's standing still as if you're piloting a mech with google glasses on.
see this titanfall gameplay trailer for example
http://youtu.be/Ko4FZwtLeKI?t=2m53s
everything is moving with the current move you've done. Thats how it should be.
Remember when we had the feature with the crosshairs moving with your mechs movement? it was a good start ...
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#13 Dracoslayer16

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Posted June 17 2013 - 01:34 PM

C-types feel very mech-like and I really like the feel of them even if they could use a walk speed buff.  A-types on the other hand feel like walking feathers with rocket boosters.  Even when they land from falls they feel like they barely weigh anything.  Not to mention the whole 2 dodges per second thing really makes it seem like they never even need to use their feet at all and can just go everywhere with boosters alone.  B-types are a happy medium but I think the sound effects could be tweaked to sound a bit heavier for a lot of their actions.

One thing that counters the whole feeling of weight is the instant midair stop when using thrusters in the air.  If a giant mech is falling from the top of Origin and one 0.5 second burst from the boosters can bring you to a stationary hover in an instant, one has to question just how light these things really are.
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#14 Teljaxx

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Posted June 17 2013 - 02:00 PM

View PostDracoslayer16, on June 17 2013 - 01:34 PM, said:

One thing that counters the whole feeling of weight is the instant midair stop when using thrusters in the air.  If a giant mech is falling from the top of Origin and one 0.5 second burst from the boosters can bring you to a stationary hover in an instant, one has to question just how light these things really are.

The mid-air acceleration and deceleration are definitely odd for piloting massive war machines. The way that you stop like you hit a physical barrier when you reach your max altitude, and the nearly instant deceleration from a fall when you hit your boosters just feel wrong. Armored Core has always had good deceleration physics while falling that actually takes into account your AC's current weight and the output of your boosters to determine how fast you fall, and how fast you can stop falling. Hawken does not need to be this complex, but having a much more obvious difference in how a Type-A and Type-C mech can decelerate in mid-air, and just plain slowing the deceleration down overall would be really good.

Making the max altitude barrier a bit softer, so that you do not instantly come to a stop when you reach it, would also help a lot. Same for the super quick liftoff from the ground when jumping. In used to be much slower than it is now, but they accelerated the initial jump by quite a bit a couple patches ago. Once again, this ends up removing the feeling of mass from the mechs. When you can bounce ten meters up into the air nearly instantaneously, it does not seem like your mech has nearly as much mass as it should.

For one thing, even though the mechs are made with Cavorite, which is anti-gravity, that should not reduce their mass, only their weight in a gravitational field. So that means that they should be light enough to fly, but it still takes a bit to get them moving in any direction. The ground acceleration is pretty good at showing the momentum properly, but the vertical momentum is too quick right now.
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#15 Leonhardt

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Posted June 17 2013 - 02:24 PM

The changes made to the acceleration rate that got rid of stun lock issues are what caused the feel of the weight of the mechs to go from chunky to light as a feather. Change it back and stun lock comes back (no thank you) so another way needs to be found to give weight and feeling back into the mechs.

Not to mention the acceleration rate change was a slight buff to A class mechs and quite frankly made them far easier to pilot than before (kinda butt hurt about that a bit).

Edited by Leonhardt, June 17 2013 - 02:25 PM.

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#16 Komodo_Saurian

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Posted June 17 2013 - 05:05 PM

C-class does feel heavy in certain regards, but B and A - not so much. Any class can break the fall from any height by tapping the jump button, for example, which feels wrong on C.

On the other hand I accentuate a lot on mobility optimizations, so that might be the case. C-class can keep up with B, B can keep up with A while A-class just whizzes around.

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#17 ShadowWarg

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Posted June 17 2013 - 06:04 PM

View Posth0B0, on June 17 2013 - 11:47 AM, said:

  • Mobility: There is both some positive and some negative here. Boosting, acceleration, dodge timers all serve to improve the feeling of heaviness. However, loss of momentum  massive discrepencies in between a's and c's, turret mode, don't serve to promote a positive gaming experience and don't serve to promote a feel of heaviness. The mechs only end up feeling ill equiped to do the task required of them (mobile combat). More emphasis on fuel consumption, more diversity in maneuverability, conservation of momentum would improve both the players experience and the feeling of heaviness.

I completely agree with this. I would like to be able to literally throw my weight around when I move. The mechs are machines, but they don't really feel like they have some of the fundamental movement restrictions that help give most machines in any game the feeling of being a machine. I'm going to using a racing game as an example, it takes time for cars to reach full speed and come to a complete stop (the faster you are moving the longer it takes); good drivers can throw the weight of the car around and skid/drift around corners. We have the slow start but not the delay stop. I can only image what a skidding/drifting mech would look like or even what it could offer to the actual gameplay.

#18 RedVan

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Posted June 17 2013 - 06:48 PM

Increase heavy feel = decrease game speed = bad IMO.

#19 Daronicus

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Posted June 17 2013 - 07:54 PM

With regards to weapon hit sounds:  they did a fantastic job with the Slug and Sabot shots.  If one of those hits you, you damn well know it, and it really gives a feeling of "very powerful weapon just hit something large."  I'd definitely like to see more in the vein of that.




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