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Leveling up your Weapons.


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#1 Deleos

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Posted October 28 2012 - 07:46 PM

I'm looking to see if I can find any information on what happens when I level up my weapons and abilities. Going from no level to level's 1/2/ and 3. Tool tips are not being updated with any information about how stats are changing if they are changing. Please any insight into this system would be appreciated.

#2 Nitris

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Posted October 28 2012 - 07:59 PM

Agreed, I have no idea why it is a good thing, or even if it is a good thing??
I'm assuming it is, because its earned through hard work and is not buyable.
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#3 defekt

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Posted October 29 2012 - 02:49 AM

Apparently the tooltips aren't all working yet so weapon level information is currently unavailable.  See dev response: http://community.pla...__20#entry75834

It piles on yet more buffs, which is a topic for another conversation.

#4 Hipnox

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Posted October 29 2012 - 06:28 AM

yeah.. why does it give some arbitrary buff, when i already have cusotmization points with which i can achieve the same thing?

It's also funny how you get bonuses to a weapon at a certain level regardless of whether you ever use that weapon or not.

Case in point, i leveled my Shaprshooter to lvl 2 and got a weapon upgrade ... for the SA Hawkins... a weapon i never use ( always go Slugrifle). Why? Why can't i choose which weapon i want to level up?

#5 Frenotx

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Posted October 29 2012 - 06:37 AM

Agreed. In its current state, the weapon level system feels totally unnecessary, and perhaps even directly negative.
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#6 FluxX

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Posted October 29 2012 - 07:23 AM

View Postdefekt, on October 29 2012 - 02:49 AM, said:

Apparently the tooltips aren't all working yet so weapon level information is currently unavailable.  See dev response: http://community.pla...__20#entry75834

It piles on yet more buffs, which is a topic for another conversation.
(Partially the topic for another conversation).
It's the opposite to real life. In real life, an item degrades through use, it does not gain magical skill points. Wish my car improved the more I drove it, instead of getting older and older and needing repairs. Wish it's engine had an XP bar for upgrades! :D

#7 NY_TimeBombTimmy

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Posted October 29 2012 - 07:32 AM

View PostHipnox, on October 29 2012 - 06:28 AM, said:

yeah.. why does it give some arbitrary buff, when i already have cusotmization points with which i can achieve the same thing?

It's also funny how you get bonuses to a weapon at a certain level regardless of whether you ever use that weapon or not.

Case in point, i leveled my Shaprshooter to lvl 2 and got a weapon upgrade ... for the SA Hawkins... a weapon i never use ( always go Slugrifle). Why? Why can't i choose which weapon i want to level up?
In the Garage, customize your mech and click Upgrades. All the mechs have the same upgrade path as far as I can tell. While it doesn't tell you what exactly it's doing, it'll give you an idea of what you'll be getting at the next levels.

#8 defekt

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Posted October 29 2012 - 07:50 AM

View PostFrenotx, on October 29 2012 - 06:37 AM, said:

Agreed. In its current state, the weapon level system feels totally unnecessary, and perhaps even directly negative.
I can understand why it’s there: it’s an easy solution and a pretty well used component of previous reward systems in other games, particularly in the context of a F2P game.  My issue with this approach is that it’s not innovative and seems to ignore evidence that games, F2P games, can thrive beyond all prediction using incentive driven mechanics that do not artificially compromise game play.  In short: I was hoping Hawken would be more imaginative in this regard.  (It’s Ad’s own fault, really, for coming up with a game that is so creative in many other regards.)

This is entirely aside from the valid (IMO) observation in how Hawken hawks* the same straight stat buffs in several areas of the game, effectively homogenising the entire progression system.  Arguably, with the three distinct areas of development/customization currently present within the game (internals, skill tree, weapon upgrades) at least two chances to do something innovative have been missed.

* Excuse the gratuitous alliteration!

#9 Evil_Adolf

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Posted October 29 2012 - 07:55 AM

Well it's a good thing it only took me about 2 days to max out a mech with 2x xp. Seems like, much like wow, the "real" game doesn't start until you reach max level. Again, at least it doesn't take too long to reach...

#10 ManlyManManson

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Posted October 29 2012 - 07:59 AM

View PostEvil_Adolf, on October 29 2012 - 07:55 AM, said:

Well it's a good thing it only took me about 2 days to max out a mech with 2x xp. Seems like, much like wow, the "real" game doesn't start until you reach max level. Again, at least it doesn't take too long to reach...

I agree, it doesn't take much time to max out a mech with 2x the XP! But onto the debate about weapon levels, I rather like them, but I do see where pilots like Defekt are coming from. What about a compromise? Instead of 3 weapon levels, except the ability, I do think that the ability should have 3 levels still, all weapons should only have 2 levels and in place of that 3 level, give the pilot +3 Tech Points! :3

#11 defekt

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Posted October 29 2012 - 08:11 AM

View PostManlyManManson, on October 29 2012 - 07:59 AM, said:

But onto the debate about weapon levels, I rather like them, but I do see where pilots like Defekt are coming from.
Is what you like about the weapon levels that they make your weapon flat out better or is it more the recognition of your progress?  If it's the latter, would an alternate system reward you in the same way if, for example, instead of giving you raw stat buffs it gave you more skin options (e.g., gave your mech ‘honour’ ribbons that flap about when you move, a la WH40K) or altered the way your weapon’s fire GFX appeared to other players (e.g., different coloured grenade explosions)?

#12 FluxX

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Posted October 29 2012 - 08:15 AM

TF2 (sorry to mention other games but it's relevant) did it a nice way. Paid for weps gain stats, but only cosmetic stats. They record your victories and everyone can see them. Much better than flat rate boost to damage. :/
Perhaps even have normal weapons get replaced every match. Paid for weapons stay, and keep the record of your stats. :P

#13 defekt

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Posted October 29 2012 - 08:21 AM

#visions of being bumped off by a 'Hale's Own Hellfire'#

(Actually, I quite like the sound of that! ;) )

#14 Fragxile

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Posted October 29 2012 - 08:29 AM

Everyone want to get better, stronger and tougher. So as an incentive system to keep people playing a direct stat buff is probably one of the more effective ways to do it. While more imaginative rewards would certainly be both interesting and potentially more effective I personaly think the most important thing is to ensure that you don't go and make high level people so much more powerful that a new player stand no chance to compete. There are few things that drives new players off as quickly as throwing them into the ring against veterans with both superior gear and skill, preventing them from ever having a chance to even learn how to play.

As FluXx points out most mechanical devices deteriorate with use. Maybe a noobie boost could be applied, giving a new player a direct stat boost for a set number of games that diminishes for each game played?
This is a often used game design element in many single player games, the "taste of power" trope, where you as a new player get to experience how awesome you are going to be later in the game. For some reason this very useful marketing tool has not, from what I've seen, been used much if at all in MP titles.

Edited by Fragxile, October 29 2012 - 08:30 AM.


#15 ManlyManManson

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Posted October 29 2012 - 08:46 AM

I love the buffs. Flat out. But unlocking more skins for your mech could be a nice alternative. I say a combination of both.

#16 defekt

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Posted October 29 2012 - 08:51 AM

View PostFragxile, on October 29 2012 - 08:29 AM, said:

Everyone want to get better, stronger and tougher. So as an incentive system to keep people playing a direct stat buff is probably one of the more effective ways to do it. While more imaginative rewards would certainly be both interesting and potentially more effective I personaly think the most important thing is to ensure that you don't go and make high level people so much more powerful that a new player stand no chance to compete. There are few things that drives new players off as quickly as throwing them into the ring against veterans with both superior gear and skill, preventing them from ever having a chance to even learn how to play.

As FluXx points out most mechanical devices deteriorate with use. Maybe a noobie boost could be applied, giving a new player a direct stat boost for a set number of games that diminishes for each game played?
This is a often used game design element in many single player games, the "taste of power" trope, where you as a new player get to experience how awesome you are going to be later in the game. For some reason this very useful marketing tool has not, from what I've seen, been used much if at all in MP titles.
Quite.

One day I will see a game that adopts the Leon Principle: the better you are the less forgiving your equipment becomes.  The ultimate example of the Leon Principle is a top class assassin that uses a fruit knife instead of a Barrett ‘Light Fifty’.  Hawken clearly isn’t that game, alas.  (In fact it’s the polar opposite.)

Of course things don’t need to be as dramatic as the Leon Principle; we all know which games hit the sweet spot, they’ve been mentioned repeatedly already.

Edit: To include quote.

Edited by defekt, October 29 2012 - 08:51 AM.


#17 defekt

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Posted October 29 2012 - 08:54 AM

View PostManlyManManson, on October 29 2012 - 08:46 AM, said:

I love the buffs. Flat out. But unlocking more skins for your mech could be a nice alternative. I say a combination of both.
Compromise is the first sign you see on the road to a harmonious existence, so I'd sign up to that.  ^_^

#18 ManlyManManson

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Posted October 29 2012 - 09:04 AM

View Postdefekt, on October 29 2012 - 08:54 AM, said:

Compromise is the first sign you see on the road to a harmonious existence, so I'd sign up to that.  ^_^

Cheers mate! :P

#19 Roundlay

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Posted October 29 2012 - 09:35 AM

View Postdefekt, on October 29 2012 - 07:50 AM, said:

I was hoping Hawken would be more imaginative in this regard.

You say that the upgrade mechanic currently in place is “not innovative” and that you had hoped Hawken would’ve been more “imaginative” in that regard. You reference LoL and Dota 2 as examples of more suitable, “innovative”, upgrade mechanics. I haven’t played LoL, but the item selection in Dota 2 is made up entirely of equipment yielding “straight stat buffs”, albeit more complicated ones, which funnels a lot of players down the same build over and over again. Complex systems like this, that are host to a vast number of possible actions and behaviours leave players with a moment to moment ignorance of the mathematics dictating their engagements. With Dota 2, etc., in mind, is this your issue: that Hawken’s upgrade paths simply aren’t complicated enough?

Or is this an issue of balance? If a “tech 3” weapon could be legitimately countered by some kind of “tech 1” ability, equipement, action, etc., would this solve your problem?

Are you able to elaborate on what you mean by “innovative”? Any specific ideas?

Edited by Roundlay, October 29 2012 - 09:36 AM.


#20 Underquotes

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Posted October 29 2012 - 10:39 AM

I'd prefer if it wasn't stat bonuses for the weapons. Pure cosmetic upgrades are a better choice for balance and overall longevity of the game.

Edited by Underquotes, October 29 2012 - 10:41 AM.





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