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Please remove me from the credits if you plan on keeping countermeasures in the game


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#1 FR05TY

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Posted December 15 2012 - 12:37 AM

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I have been playing since alpha2, and it seemed right up until release that the Devs had made some pretty good design decisions throughout the development process.

I went ahead and bought the premium vanguard package, as I felt the game was shaping up to be great.

Then you go and throw in countermeasures at the last minute.

I am guessing what happened here is that the business people on your team decided that the current pricing model for the game was not lucrative enough, and felt the need to encourage spending by creating a credit sink. So in order to appease this requirement, you came up with the half-baked idea of countermeasures.

I say half baked, because it's quite clear that countermeasures are poorly designed. Even if these items were free, there's a damn strong argument that they are poorly designed. These item undermine core mechanics of the game, and were completely untested in the closed beta environments.

But the fact that you've set them up as a pay-per-use consumable makes me completely lose faith in the direction of Hawken, Adhesive Games, and Meteor Entertainment.

This is pay-to-win as you can get without making it blatant. You want to make a credit sink to encourage people to buy meteor points? Fine. But it should NOT give them a tactical advantage.

Countermeasures feel completely off in both terms of design and the economic philosophy of Hawken, which leads me to my original conclusion that this was a requirement placed on the developers by the business side of the company. My guess is that they were partly introduced to 'test the waters' for future, more drastic credit sinks of this type.



Now to the topic of this post - If you choose to keep countermeasures in the game as they exist right now, I would like my name removed from the credits. I do not want to be associated with a game or company that follows a pay-to-win business model. I feel betrayed, and I would not have bought into the vanguard initiative at all if you had revealed countermeasures before the game's release.

I encourage other players to voice their opinion on this matter.

#2 h0B0

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Posted December 15 2012 - 12:50 AM

View PostFR05TY, on December 15 2012 - 12:37 AM, said:

These item undermine core mechanics of the game.

This.

Click me! I dare you.

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View Post[HWK]HUGHES, on March 15 2013 - 08:35 PM, said:

Oh don't always listen to h0B0. Lol.


#3 Necro

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Posted December 15 2012 - 12:54 AM

View PostFR05TY, on December 15 2012 - 12:37 AM, said:

Even if these items were free, there's a damn strong argument that they are poorly designed. These item undermine core mechanics of the game, and were completely untested in the closed beta environments.

You want to make a credit sink to encourage people to buy meteor points? Fine. But it should NOT give them a tactical advantage.

These I feel are the main points and a good TL;DR for people. It's nice to add that.

And also i agree with these two points.

Edited by Necro, December 15 2012 - 12:54 AM.


#4 RedVan

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Posted December 15 2012 - 12:56 AM

I just see no point in them at all.  I haven't used them, nor do I intend to, don't really have a need to.  And I have no idea if those I'm playing against use them, but, if they are, it's not helping them too much.  Either way, they're pointless fluff that can go.

#5 InfestedFirman

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Posted December 15 2012 - 12:56 AM

Yeah, the fact that they were added with little to no warning peeves me off abit.  But has anyone actually fought against a Mech with countermeasures though? Are they that gimped to fight against?

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#6 FR05TY

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Posted December 15 2012 - 01:00 AM

Well, I for one know that the first time I EMP someone who has a EMP countermeasure, I'm going to be pissed as hell.

Edit: PARTICULARLY if I end up shutting myself down in the process (though usually I'm not that bad).

Edited by FR05TY, December 15 2012 - 01:02 AM.


#7 RedVan

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Posted December 15 2012 - 01:01 AM

Even if they keep it in, it'll be banned in comp play, and that's what I'm worried about the most.

#8 Necro

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Posted December 15 2012 - 01:01 AM

I think everyone is boycotting them.

I haven't used them and i haven't noticed anyone using them either.

#9 SystemiK

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Posted December 15 2012 - 01:08 AM

What I find laughable about the implementation of the countermeasures is the "auto deploy when appropriate".   Seriously, is this really for convenience or just a method to increase their consumption?

The way this was slipped in under the radar just smacks of greed to me but we'll have to see how things pan out in the long run.   In my opinion they have undermined the faith of many of their core players.

Edited by SystemiK, December 15 2012 - 01:09 AM.

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#10 KejiGoto

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Posted December 15 2012 - 01:13 AM

This feels like a huge overreaction to me... Yes counter measures negate a few items but not all. If I drop my machine gun turret a counter measure doesn't stop that, it keeps on firing at my enemies. It doesn't counter my shield, repair charge, and the like.

Yes it sucks that they stop a radar scrambler and an EMP charge but you should be skilled enough to take someone down without the need of those. Plus they consume automatically so players can't pick and choose during a fight how and when they use them, they just happen. If a player wants to sink their money into them be my guest because I'm sticking with the items these don't stop and the overheat issue I couldn't care about because I'm good enough to stay out of the way of incoming fire and know when to flee from battle when it looks like I'm not going to win.

I wish these could have been tested before Open Beta as I've been playing since the Alpha but these are pretty far from Pay to Win for the reasons I listed above.

In short quit whining and acting like this was some serious slight against the players. There are some serious drawbacks to countermeasures and hardly unbalance the game.

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#11 RedVan

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Posted December 15 2012 - 01:16 AM

View PostKejiGoto, on December 15 2012 - 01:13 AM, said:



In short quit whining and acting like this was some serious slight against the players. There are some serious drawbacks to countermeasures and hardly unbalance the game.

Serious drawbacks?  Like what?

#12 FR05TY

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Posted December 15 2012 - 01:21 AM

View PostKejiGoto, on December 15 2012 - 01:13 AM, said:

This feels like a huge overreaction to me... Yes counter measures negate a few items but not all. If I drop my machine gun turret a counter measure doesn't stop that, it keeps on firing at my enemies. It doesn't counter my shield, repair charge, and the like.

Yes it sucks that they stop a radar scrambler and an EMP charge but you should be skilled enough to take someone down without the need of those. Plus they consume automatically so players can't pick and choose during a fight how and when they use them, they just happen. If a player wants to sink their money into them be my guest because I'm sticking with the items these don't stop and the overheat issue I couldn't care about because I'm good enough to stay out of the way of incoming fire and know when to flee from battle when it looks like I'm not going to win.

I wish these could have been tested before Open Beta as I've been playing since the Alpha but these are pretty far from Pay to Win for the reasons I listed above.

In short quit whining and acting like this was some serious slight against the players. There are some serious drawbacks to countermeasures and hardly unbalance the game.

Do you really think countermeasures will stop at these 3? The only thing that will stop them is players voicing opposition.

Regardless, they still upset the balance of the game.

EMP and Radar scrambler are worth less than the other options as a result of countermeasures being introduced. You say "you should be skilled enough to take someone down without the need of those". I'm going to assume you're an fuzzy bunny, because this argument could be made about any item in the game, including weapons. As long as you're "skilled enough" and have the ability to do damage, you can theoretically kill anyone.

The extent to which they provide a tactical advantage isn't the issue. It's the fact that they provide a tactical advantage at all.

#13 KejiGoto

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Posted December 15 2012 - 01:36 AM

View PostRedVan, on December 15 2012 - 01:16 AM, said:

View PostKejiGoto, on December 15 2012 - 01:13 AM, said:

In short quit whining and acting like this was some serious slight against the players. There are some serious drawbacks to countermeasures and hardly unbalance the game.

Serious drawbacks?  Like what?

Did you not read my post and how they only work on certain items and are used automatically?

@ Frosty

Ah so you're making the assumption that other countermeasures will be introduced to further upset the balance, that's the way to do it; making assumptions and all. Right now countermeasures work against EMP, radar scrambler, and remove overheat when you go nuts with your weapon. This isn't OP or anything like this and will become a quick money drain on anyone who constantly wants to use them.

Also obviously I must be a fuzzy bunny (guessing this is Hawken term for noob, seen it thrown around a handful of times). My KDR right now is 4.25 and my scout is sitting at level 15. But yea I'm a fuzzy bunny who clearly doesn't know what I'm talking about.

Items in general provide a tactical advantage and can be bought with real money, have a recharge time, and don't require an additional purchase after each use. Countermeasures are just that, a counter to items. You have to select what you want them to counter before the match and if you select improperly that leaves you without any tactical advantage. If you find out someone is using countermeasures on the EMP charge then make sure you hit them with it every time you see them so they just burn through them leaving them with none or forcing them to buy more for no reason.

The tactical advantage gained here is minimal at best and this just comes off as whining, especially the whole "Take my name off the credits because I don't want to be associated with this game." Basically you're threatening the dev team and acting as if this one thing undoes all the great work they've put into Hawken. Real classy there buddy.

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#14 Necro

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Posted December 15 2012 - 01:44 AM

View PostKejiGoto, on December 15 2012 - 01:36 AM, said:

a quick money drain on anyone who constantly wants to use them.
You just stated what was wrong with them.

I would be fine if Countermeasure where a one time purchase, like items, that could shorten an emp or stop a scrambler for a short time or reduce the time you are overheated and they needed to be used by activating them.

This would open up more choices to player's, however none of them should be money drains, automatic, or entirely take away one aspect of the game.

#15 Makina

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Posted December 15 2012 - 01:45 AM

ive never used them, nor do I plan to, but since they are bought via HC I think its not that bad, its like 100 HC for 1 use, so like 1 complete game...what I mean is if people start using it alot, then you can actually buy some and use it yourself easely
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#16 SystemiK

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Posted December 15 2012 - 01:53 AM

View PostKejiGoto, on December 15 2012 - 01:13 AM, said:

Also obviously I must be a fuzzy bunny (guessing this is Hawken term for noob, seen it thrown around a handful of times).

Not sure if you were joking or not but no, "fuzzy bunny" is the term that the forum software automatically substitutes for "offensive" words.  

For example, words like fuzzy bunny, fuzzy bunny, fuzzy bunny, fuzzy bunny, fuzzy bunny, and fuzzy bunny.
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#17 Wyr

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Posted December 15 2012 - 02:01 AM

I used countermeasures (the free ones, given at start, they are still not deplated) from start. They don't do much, they very rarely trigger and they can't be brought using real money. So I'm really puzzled about this outrage.
Before raging like madmen, at least please, pretty please try the countermeasures in game.
They are not a big deal.
The only countermeasure that people would use is most likely they counter-EMP. And that was most likely introduced to counter the OP-ness of EMP. In the closed betas there was really no reason to play anything else instead of EMP. People where technically spamming it. It made agile mech godlike, while making C-class piloting a nightmare against good players. Now this was solved(ish).

Not to mention you will most likely get the cost of a countermeasure in a game, while at it's current state it does not trigger in each game (still got from those starting ones), so I really don't see the point of this topic. My suggestion: play the game, then rage. (Mis)reading patchnotes and raging is so lame.
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#18 FR05TY

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Posted December 15 2012 - 02:09 AM

View PostKejiGoto, on December 15 2012 - 01:36 AM, said:

View PostRedVan, on December 15 2012 - 01:16 AM, said:

View PostKejiGoto, on December 15 2012 - 01:13 AM, said:

In short quit whining and acting like this was some serious slight against the players. There are some serious drawbacks to countermeasures and hardly unbalance the game.

Serious drawbacks?  Like what?

Did you not read my post and how they only work on certain items and are used automatically?

@ Frosty

Ah so you're making the assumption that other countermeasures will be introduced to further upset the balance, that's the way to do it; making assumptions and all. Right now countermeasures work against EMP, radar scrambler, and remove overheat when you go nuts with your weapon. This isn't OP or anything like this and will become a quick money drain on anyone who constantly wants to use them.

Also obviously I must be a fuzzy bunny (guessing this is Hawken term for noob, seen it thrown around a handful of times). My KDR right now is 4.25 and my scout is sitting at level 15. But yea I'm a fuzzy bunny who clearly doesn't know what I'm talking about.

Items in general provide a tactical advantage and can be bought with real money, have a recharge time, and don't require an additional purchase after each use. Countermeasures are just that, a counter to items. You have to select what you want them to counter before the match and if you select improperly that leaves you without any tactical advantage. If you find out someone is using countermeasures on the EMP charge then make sure you hit them with it every time you see them so they just burn through them leaving them with none or forcing them to buy more for no reason.

The tactical advantage gained here is minimal at best and this just comes off as whining, especially the whole "Take my name off the credits because I don't want to be associated with this game." Basically you're threatening the dev team and acting as if this one thing undoes all the great work they've put into Hawken. Real classy there buddy.

First off, being good at a game and understanding balance are two completely different things. And really, in that regard, I'm probably much better off than you, because I am employed in a salary position as a game developer. I'm going to "assume" that you cant say the same, so let's not get into our backgrounds, for your sake.

Back to the topic at hand - you clearly did not read my post carefully enough.

Countermeasures are unbalanced right now BECAUSE they only target EMP/Scrambler. There are the only two items that are counterable in this way, and they are made less valuable as a result. This upsets balance.

But again, this isn't about the actual balance concerns so much as it is about the conflict in design philosophy presented by their introduction. As someone else pointed out, there's a key difference between these and other items in that you need to continue paying for countermeasures for continued use. Sounds very "subscription" like, doesn't it? There's a reason this style of item does not exist in other highly successful free-to-plays such as TF2 and LoL.


As for this being whining - sure, you can call it that if you want to. But player feedback (aka whining) is very important in the field of game design (though again, you might not know that).

And yes, I AM saying that adopting this economic model for the game undoes the good work they have done. In my opinion, people who play and make games that follow a play-to-win model are sell-outs (quite literally).

In the end, they can design this game however they want - and they SHOULD, because while analyzing player feedback is important, sticking with your own consistent design philosophy is very important as well. Game design is not a "customer is always right" business. But don't bash on me for not wanting to associate myself with businesses that operate in ways that I disapprove of.

#19 SystemiK

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Posted December 15 2012 - 02:15 AM

View PostWyr, on December 15 2012 - 02:01 AM, said:

The only countermeasure that people would use is most likely they counter-EMP. And that was most likely introduced to counter the OP-ness of EMP. In the closed betas there was really no reason to play anything else instead of EMP. People where technically spamming it. It made agile mech godlike, while making C-class piloting a nightmare against good players. Now this was solved(ish).


You suggest that the EMP was "overpowered" in closed beta. Do you really think the way to address the balance of an overpowered item is to perpetually charge any players who wish to avoid being spammed with it?  That's an interesting approach to game balancing, I sure hope it doesn't catch on in the industry.

But fair enough, I'll try not to rage until I have had more time to see how it all pans out for myself.
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#20 AltoNat

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Posted December 15 2012 - 02:34 AM

I fought one guy who used a countermeasure against me, emp one. I kicked his ass anyway.




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