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Necro's giant thread about siege mode.


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#1 Necro

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Posted December 15 2012 - 09:50 PM

Warning, this is full of OPINIONS and will not have a TL;DR version.

Ok, I'm going to break it down into it's simplest forms and see what makes this mode good or bad and give my idea's on it. Also when i say a fair amount i mean an amount that has been balanced and fits gameplay.

Primary Objective:
Spoiler
Secondary Objectives:
Spoiler
Meta game:
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Problems:
Spoiler
Solutions:
Spoiler
Suggestions:
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I believe that cover most of my thoughts. Prolly not to be honest it's a big topic. Thanks for reading, sorry for the errors if there are any errors.

Edited by Necro, December 22 2012 - 11:34 PM.


#2 Zombierave

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Posted December 15 2012 - 11:44 PM

yeah, my biggest problems i've encountered [having been on both sides] that actually bother me are 2 and 5. it becomes near impossible for a comeback if 1/3 or 1/2 of the team is going for the AA while the others are sitting in/near the base and are shooting the battleship. not to mention the fire support from the battleship. and then once the team that goes to the AA is inevitably destroyed, the spawn camping begins. as a person who sees no point in rage quitting, this usually makes me want to.

#3 Necro

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Posted December 15 2012 - 11:50 PM

Thanks for the feedback. I have also been noticing way to much spawn camping and the fact that you CAN shoot the ship down doesn't help one bit in my opinion. It just needs to be done in another way like the base weapon in solution 2 that doesn't encourage all the players to stop trying to get the AA and is limited.

Also suggestion 2 and solution 2/5 address these and helps a lot.

#4 Beemann

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Posted December 16 2012 - 02:08 AM

The problem with siege is actually pretty easy to explain once someone knows the mechanics

If you allow people to fight from spawn or near it (IE if you allow people to defend without focusing on the AA) then the game becomes a camp-fest one way or the other

If you don't allow people to fight from outside of the AA, then it becomes a glorified king of the hill match, and everything else is secondary. Holding the AA becomes the only real relevant objective. Collecting EU, whether it be automatic or player driven, is done pretty easily. The real push and pull happens once the ships launch
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#5 Necro

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Posted December 16 2012 - 02:11 AM

View PostBeemann, on December 16 2012 - 02:08 AM, said:

The real push and pull happens once the ships launch
That's also why I feel there should be more space for this to happen in and more obtainable EU then just 2 points.
A lot of things currently just can be done by avoiding players all together.

A lot of the maps are very cramped in the AA and it's hard to have a decent fight in there. And the shield takes emphasis off the ship and onto the players.

Edited by Necro, December 16 2012 - 02:12 AM.


#6 Beemann

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Posted December 16 2012 - 02:17 AM

View PostNecro, on December 16 2012 - 02:11 AM, said:

View PostBeemann, on December 16 2012 - 02:08 AM, said:

The real push and pull happens once the ships launch
That's also why I feel there should be more space for this to happen in.

A lot of the maps are very cramped in the AA and it's hard to have a decent fight in there. And the shield takes emphasis off the ship and onto the players.
Fights aren't necessarily meant to happen entirely inside the AA. That's how you get mulched up by AOE. Remember that narrow corridors let you spam the fuzzy bunny out of the people in them

The shield actually puts more emphasis on the AA, since you need it to shoot the ship down. Victory emphasis is always on AI driven entities in Siege mode, whether it's the AA, the ship, or some suggested alternative/addition. Again, changes to the ship to make it harder to shoot simply place more stress on holding the AA, changes to the ship or AA to make getting rid of the ship easier lead to camping

If you're okay with one of these, that's fine... however you really have to accept all the limits that come with going one way or the other
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#7 Etan

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Posted December 16 2012 - 02:22 AM

I dont know how good king of the hill would play out on the maps we have. But atleast it would be more balanced. Curse you siege mode!
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#8 Necro

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Posted December 16 2012 - 02:26 AM

View PostBeemann, on December 16 2012 - 02:17 AM, said:

View PostNecro, on December 16 2012 - 02:11 AM, said:

View PostBeemann, on December 16 2012 - 02:08 AM, said:

The real push and pull happens once the ships launch
That's also why I feel there should be more space for this to happen in.

A lot of the maps are very cramped in the AA and it's hard to have a decent fight in there. And the shield takes emphasis off the ship and onto the players.
Fights aren't necessarily meant to happen entirely inside the AA. That's how you get mulched up by AOE. Remember that narrow corridors let you spam the fuzzy bunny out of the people in them...

...If you're okay with one of these, that's fine... however you really have to accept all the limits that come with going one way or the other

Yeah i realize your not suppose to fight inside the AA but it's pretty undeniable (at least to me) the team with the AA has more advantage because of the vast amount of cover it provides, i would suggest two control points or opening up a little more. However some players might like the very small space and that's cool. It's just their play-style. Which would you prefer?

And the 2nd point, There is always a happy medium somewhere but it will this mode will inherently lead to having one better way it's played. However along with that I suggested another thing to do with EU which could be a large weapon powered with EU at the base. A player could fill it up with EU and It could either shoot the base or shoot the ship depending on what mode it currently is. It would be a limited and balanced amount of damage and uses, whatever those number come out to be, and this will allow for both play-styles.
(it would obviously bypass the shield)

Edited by Necro, December 16 2012 - 02:27 AM.


#9 Beemann

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Posted December 16 2012 - 02:31 AM

GL's make pretty short work of AA defenders, particularly if you have a RevGL or HEAT as your secondary
You can't dodge splash if you're sitting in a shoebox sized enclosure :P
Two control points just makes it a mini-Missile, and it further disorients poor pubbies. While I'm cool with some low-power secondaries that give slight bonuses, splitting the primary objective seems a bit convoluted to me. As well, how do you, as the ship-ferrying team, expect to hold two items at once?
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#10 Necro

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Posted December 16 2012 - 02:44 AM

View PostBeemann, on December 16 2012 - 02:31 AM, said:

splitting the primary objective seems a bit convoluted to me. As well, how do you, as the ship-ferrying team, expect to hold two items at once?
True however I more envisioned it as two almost touching circles where you can almost just stand in both at the same time so it would be rather easy to hold two points. It's not really worked out very much in my head and prolly isn't the best solution but I just feel that one small point in the center of the map is very simple and doesn't give much depth or require much teamwork other then being there.

Also your right it does make it a mini-missile and that's not good for variety.

#11 Gagzila

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Posted December 18 2012 - 03:53 PM

Hey Guys,

Even though we all have different ideas on how siege should be, I am glad we all agree that it needs FIXING irrespective of differing views on how to do that.

Also, multiple threads are ok if you're discussing completely different aspects of something but in this case it should all really try to stay in one to two main threads...you may think it makes the devs take notice through the sheer numbers of threads, but really it just makes it harder for them to collate the information into one instance so they can review it and they are more prone just to look at it as spam...if you keep it all together, it's much easier to go through from top to bottom and get a much quicker overview of the general consensus, plus you aren't doubling up on ideas and effort in replying to multiple threads.

If anything, just be sure to visit this thread and vote so at least that information is fairly representative of how the community feels about the matter.

http://community.pla...d-version-poll/

Cheers,

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#12 Necro

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Posted December 18 2012 - 10:27 PM

View PostGagzila, on December 18 2012 - 03:53 PM, said:

If anything, just be sure to visit this thread and vote so at least that information is fairly representative of how the community feels about the matter.

http://community.pla...d-version-poll/

Cheers,

Gagzila
This is far too long to be a reply in someone's thread but i know what you mean.

Also i was the 1st post there, i think they are all to far from being close to good so i said none.

#13 Viruts

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Posted December 18 2012 - 11:25 PM

the reason people start spawn camping is because the aa becomes a loss cause anyway 6 people on the aa and they are all packin stuff that kills. defence is always easyer than attacking no mater if its mech games or actual war.

so when its imposible to attack the aa i would actualy encurage shooting at the battle ship because now its actualy taking damage insted of the 0 damage and time being waisted on geting to the aa(that you probly wont get anyway)

a way to fix this is have 2 aa stations close but far enuff apart where the teams now have to devide ether 3/3 per turent and face a 6/0 assult or 4/2 and again a 6/0 assult. this makes it a whole lot easier to gain an aa position and face seemingly immposible odds
a simular method that could work is place the 2 AA stations where the EU taps are and place a single EU station in the center. this would cause teams to actualy fight over the eu and make overal AA attack and defence stage run mor smothly

Edited by Viruts, December 18 2012 - 11:29 PM.


#14 HumbleLion

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Posted December 22 2012 - 05:10 PM

Not much to add but to say great thread and keep up the discussion i like a lot of the ideas, especialy being able to continue to collect energy durring AA control time which could aid to the bases defence especially durring times when everyone wants to be an energy runner and the base is getting spawn camped. Or at least if you are getting enemy kills around your base, collect their EU and take it back to your base for defences.

#15 Rei

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Posted December 22 2012 - 08:07 PM

Yeah I don't quite agree with the battleships adding damage to give one team another advantage (and stealing my kills). There definitely needs to be something to encourage people to take the point because 4/5 of the games I play, people just try to camp back and take pot shots at the AA instead of trying to stand on it. Usually leads to very one-sided, dull 6-12 minute games.

Also another thing you might want to add into metagame is making sure the AA can be controlled before you launch your ship. Otherwise your battleship will lose nearly half it's HP by the time you get to it with 4+ enemies controlling the point prior to launch.

Edited by Rei, December 22 2012 - 08:07 PM.

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#16 Mechamert

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Posted December 22 2012 - 08:26 PM

I agree with most of what the OP says. Siege is by far my favourite game mode but it can be improved with some tweaks - a lot of what's been said on this thread would help in my opinion.

On the subject of having a secondary objective if you can't take the AA - what if you could use EU during the ship phase to increase your base's defense? Maybe every 1,000 EU deposited meant your base took 10% less damage from the enemy ship up to a maximum of, say, 5,000 EU / 50%? Of course after the enemy ship died the defense bonus would reset to zero. Thoughts?

#17 Rei

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Posted December 22 2012 - 08:28 PM

That or maybe EU turrets in your base a player can control with 100+ EU for a certain amount of seconds until you hit 0 EU.

Edited by Rei, December 22 2012 - 08:29 PM.

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#18 Necro

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Posted December 22 2012 - 08:32 PM

View PostRei, on December 22 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

Also another thing you might want to add into metagame is making sure the AA can be controlled before you launch your ship. Otherwise your battleship will lose nearly half it's HP by the time you get to it with 4+ enemies controlling the point prior to launch.

True forgot about that :)

Edited by Necro, December 22 2012 - 08:33 PM.


#19 Mechamert

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Posted December 22 2012 - 08:35 PM

A (presumably) easier change might be to vastly reduce the XP bonus from depositing EU and increase the XP awarded from each missile you helped launch. Might help a bit I guess? :)

#20 Rei

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Posted December 22 2012 - 08:38 PM

View PostMechamert, on December 22 2012 - 08:35 PM, said:

A (presumably) easier change might be to vastly reduce the XP bonus from depositing EU and increase the XP awarded from each missile you helped launch. Might help a bit I guess? :)
Yeah, it almost becomes like a rush to see who can return EU the fastest for the EXP. Causes a lot of unorganized pub games with people only thinking for themselves.
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