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Hacking and Hawken


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#1 LordofNosgoth

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Posted February 03 2014 - 01:14 AM

Since I've seen a few threads talking about hacking in Hawken and the idiocy contained therein, I thought I'd post some logical clarification for everyone.

1.) There are hackers in every game, everywhere, period. Hawken is no exception.

2.) In my experience in games (which is considerable) about 1 of every 4 people who hop on forums and make claims that there are no hackers in their game of choice are either hacking themselves or - and this is usually the case - are exploiting the game in some way that provides them with an unfair advantage.

3.) Games where there are known and frequently updated Anti-Cheats experience fewer hackers than games that do not.

4.) VAC, while ultimately effective, does not immediately ban troublesome hackers. It can take up to 90 days. Punkbuster, on the other hand, will immediately kick you from game for "suspected cheating" if anything - and I do mean anything - is funny with your system files, network packets or memory block allocation at all. Pick your poison.

5.) File manipulation is more common than active hacking ('active hacking' is done by memory injection, usually). File manipulation is usually most effective when most of the game's calculations are handled client-side. Things like infinite ability use, no timers and instant reloads are most common with these types of hacks. Starting to sound familiar? It should. I've seen this quite a lot in Hawken, though it could just as easily be done via memory injection. Disgusting.

6.) Because of point #1, there is not now, nor should there ever be a need to prove hacking exists in any game. RESPONSIBLE Developers will rightly make the assumption hacking is going to happen and will take steps to head it off at the pass. Responsible community members will suggest that anyone who believes they are the victim of hacking record the games, post it to a private link on Youtube and then link the developers and only the developers!

7.) Historically, despite the common practice against it, "Name-and-Shame" is the most effective anti-hack there is. Being singled out publicly as hacker so that others know to avoid the player in question is exceptionally effective at either getting the hacker to go legit, stop playing or convince others to not play with them. Each of the aforementioned is an outcome desired by everyone who is legit.

8.) Asking someone to 'prove there is hacking' in a particular game is trolling, point-blank, no getting around it. Being a troll doesn't help anyone, anywhere, ever. In fact, it does the opposite. It turns other players off. No one likes being trolled, especially when they are reaching out for help or comfort.

9.) A Developer being very vocal and public with their anti-hacking policies and methods of protection provides everyone who plays legitimately and everyone who desires to, the comfort of knowing that someone cares about their gaming experience enough to protect it.

10.) Exploitation is hacking. If you know there are exploits, the responsible thing to do is not use them to your advantage (most especially not in a multi-player game!) and report the exploit - complete with videos - to the developers so they can take steps to correct the issue.

This having been said, I would be very grateful to Meteor/Adhesive for a sticky wherein they post their efforts to curb hacking and update it frequently.

On that note, if you have any suggestions that are helpful, feel free to post them below.

NOTE TO EVERYONE ESLE: Before you post here, please keep in mind that a community full of unhelpful trolls will kill this game faster than anything else. If you have any doubts to that, go visit http://www.crysis.co...wforum.php?f=65 and the Crysis 3 PC discussions. Read the thread history. The game didn't die because it was actually bad (in fact, it's actually quite good!), it died because the community was horrible and never anything more than asinine, disrespectful, ungrateful and generally hateful. I'd like to avoid such a horrible fate for Hawken. Please help me with that.

Thanks for reading.

Thanks for playing.

Edited by LordofNosgoth, February 03 2014 - 01:28 AM.

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#2 RunaPanda

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Posted February 03 2014 - 01:37 AM

Amen Lord, VAC blows, it's super easy to get around, TF2 is a prime example, it's rife with hacks. Like you also said it takes 90 days for VAC to actually take action, that's 3 months to long for a hacker to be left in the game.

Point #5 should be taken seriously, this should also include configuration file modifying. The simple fact that the "devs allow it" that I've been told by idk how many people is ridiculous, no multiplayer developer should allow the end user to modify their files. Most developers don't allow this and express it directly in their EULA that it's not allowed, so why isn't it here.

Point #7, although harsh, or in most cases seen as defamation. It's a very effective tactic, I've seen it work in mmorpgs it can clearly work here. We're supposed to be a community, so if we spread the word that so and so is cheating, then eventually no one will play with so and so, there for causing public humiliation and their departure from the game and community.
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#3 Sylhiri

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Posted February 03 2014 - 01:50 AM

Damn, can't disagree or else I'm a hacker...

Better not say anything to avoid a witchhunt. Oh **** I already said something. People don't even need proof because asking for it is trolling. Well, better quit the game now.

I also just killed Hawken, you may stone me now.

Edited by Sylhiri, February 03 2014 - 01:52 AM.

[13:14] <nonsiccus_work> uh oh

there's gravy in my keyboard

----------------------------------------------------------------------

[11:18] <+shosca> if you wanna play ar, go play zerker
[11:18] <Hyginos> and if you want to play zerker, go smc
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#4 craftydus

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Posted February 03 2014 - 01:56 AM

 LordofNosgoth, on February 03 2014 - 01:14 AM, said:

the community was horrible and never anything more than asinine, disrespectful, ungrateful and generally hateful. I'd like to avoid such a horrible fate for Hawken.

One of the finest gaming communities I've had the opportunity to participate in,  keeps a forum so asinine, disrespectful, ungrateful and generally hateful that it's the very glue allowing them to thrive with considerable longevity (3 times older than your steam profile).

There's nothing quite like taking the gloves off to humble the weak chins.

Discussing getting a Competitive Hawken section up with a community luminary "Crafty, we might want to avoid showing them there at all." :lol:

Their site description is "Relax, Lounge around, And find out who hacks."

#5 JeffMagnum

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Posted February 03 2014 - 02:33 AM

 RunaPanda, on February 03 2014 - 01:37 AM, said:

Point #5 should be taken seriously, this should also include configuration file modifying. The simple fact that the "devs allow it" that I've been told by idk how many people is ridiculous, no multiplayer developer should allow the end user to modify their files. Most developers don't allow this and express it directly in their EULA that it's not allowed, so why isn't it here.
It's beyond me how you can actually think the devs owe you a EULA change just because you personally don't like something that people do. We all know you hate .ini editing (and the dirty unskilled players who do it) with a fiery passion and want to see it gone 4evr, but continuously making entitled posts condemning it whenever someone so much as mentions ".ini" or "edit" in any context probably isn't the best way to go about getting the devs to change their views on the matter.

#6 Houruck

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Posted February 03 2014 - 03:07 AM

You have some good points and the cause is just, but your logic is flawed. As Sylhiri pointed it out, you dismiss everyone as a troll or hacker if he/she disagrees with you. But I do now wish to list every logical fallacy in the original post.

1.) This is true.

7.) This is actually the worst solutions in my opinion. There is a good reason why is it banned on this forum.
By your reasoning I am a hacker and a troll because I do not agree with you. I was called cheater and hacker several times, even when I played with the default settings for a very long time (I changed my FOV since and I use a simple green dot crosshair overlay).

If you do not wish to prove your accusation (as you said in point 8) what is your basis for such shaming? How can the accused redeem himself/herself?

10.) I agree with this one.

 RunaPanda, on February 03 2014 - 01:37 AM, said:

[...]
Really?

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Edited by Houruck, February 03 2014 - 03:10 AM.

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#7 MexichanMan

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Posted February 03 2014 - 03:14 AM

1) Well, yes. Anyone who would deny the existence of any hack (past or present) for Hawken would be foolish.

2) That is quite a bold claim, I hope you are exaggerating or have proof of your figure.

3) Again, can you provide an example game or community where this proved to be effective?

4) My knowledge of both of these systems is limited so I can not comment here.

5) To my knowledge the only hacks I've ever encountered or seen in video proof have been wall hacks, aimbots, and spread compensation. IIRC, most (if not all) hard game stats are kept server side as to prevent the type of file manipulation you are describing here. If you have proof that such file manipulation hacks exist, I would be more than eager to see it.

6) Whose to say that Adhesive is not a responsible developer (I  know you didn't mean to say that adhesive is not a responsible developer, but I'm using this to illustrate to those who may see otherwise)? Same can be said for a lot of community members as well. If they are following what you are saying here, then we would be blissfully unaware of such steps. However, as a nosy community member, I tend to like to see proof whenever I can get my grubby little hands on it ;).

7) This "Name-and-Shame" tactic would be very much against the practice you mentioned in #6

8) Asking for proof without any reasonable need for proof is definitely is trolling. However, if I'm not mistaken, giving proof is the best way to strengthen your argument.

9) I agree, however Adhesive is still a very young company whose first game is still in "beta". Give it time.

10) I would tend to disagree. Exploitation is using something broken in the game that is completely legit (however, it often makes you a scumbag). And yes, it is up to the community to discuss exploits and make sure the devs know so they can fix it. In particular, Hawken has fixed a lot of exploits, however some fixes have required quite a bit of time to fix.

As for the worthiness of a sticky, I think your post does not fit with what I would conisder "stickiable"... A lot of what you have said does not necessarily reflect the majority opinion of this community nor does it provide info that I would consider useful.
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#8 MexichanMan

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Posted February 03 2014 - 03:21 AM

 RunaPanda, on February 03 2014 - 01:37 AM, said:

Point #5 should be taken seriously, this should also include configuration file modifying. The simple fact that the "devs allow it" that I've been told by idk how many people is ridiculous, no multiplayer developer should allow the end user to modify their files. Most developers don't allow this and express it directly in their EULA that it's not allowed, so why isn't it here.

I think you mistake his point number 5 with .ini modification, which is not the same as file manipulation hacks. The difference is that the .ini config files are by design editable to personalize the user experience (I'm not going to argue about fov modification here). File manipulation hacks are used to edit files which were never meant to be edited, such as hard game stats.
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#9 Houruck

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Posted February 03 2014 - 03:23 AM

10.) Speaking of exploits. Reading MexichanMan's post under the Quake 3 screenshot reminded me how these exploits can become standard gameplay elements. Like rocket jump, plasma climb, bunny hopping and so on.

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#10 driedjello

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Posted February 03 2014 - 03:29 AM

I agree with about everything except the file modification thing.  I run crosshair overlay and modified my files for wider FOV.  If the devs say it's okay, then I don't see how it's not.  I don't try to hide it and I point anyone who will listen to the how-tos in the forums.

Also, it's a fine line as to map exploits.  If you invest in airdynamics and can take higher ground than others, it's not really cheating IMHO.  It's just maximizing an advantage you sacrificed internal slots for.  There are bugs in the map.  I do feel dirty shooting at someone who got their foot stuck though!  I will on occasion break off when I see this though I don't remember being afforded the same thing, ever!

Overall, great post.  Hacking is a clear and present danger to a game.  Aimbots and wall hacks are the worst and people using them are scum.
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#11 EliteShooter

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Posted February 03 2014 - 03:42 AM

I HAVE A FEELY FEEL THAT UR A CHEATER !



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#12 JeffMagnum

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Posted February 03 2014 - 03:58 AM

I think the point made about exploits is a tricky one, mostly because there's no universal agreement on what precisely an exploit even is. Was using the Shield before Ascension when it didn't show up half the time and could sometimes take 5x its normal health an exploit? Is using Det+Powershot/Ballistic Barrage an exploit? Was Fuel Converter+the 90% Failsafe an exploit? The last one I'm honestly unsure about, because I think whether or not it was was contingent upon the mindset of the person who used it. On one hand, taking splash from your own weapons is definitely something that happens often in normal fighting, but on the other, I can't imagine that the devs intended for people to be rewarded for shooting walls at point-blank range and facehugging as much as possible.

In my opinion, a mechanic is only an exploit if someone has to make a large conscious effort to do something out of the realm of standard gameplay and they do so with the intent to gain a substantial unfair advantage. If someone is dicking around inside a wall taking occasional potshots in DM then sure, do whatever, but if an entire team manages to hide in a normally inaccessible area that's protected from all fire after getting one kill, that's clearly a different case. That'd be really fuzzy bunny boring and wouldn't see any use in pubs, but I wouldn't put it past the realm of possibility that a desperate organized team would do it if they knew they had no chance otherwise.

Edited by JeffMagnum, February 03 2014 - 04:04 AM.


#13 FuryMonster

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Posted February 03 2014 - 04:59 AM

I claim that I've never encountered a hacker that matters. Nobody I've seen ( If he was hacking ) was good enough for me to be suspecious of him hacking.  Only the sniper classes would clearly show that someone was hacking because they are instant hitscan weapons ( both of them ) . due to the nature of travel times / having to lead shots with the projectiles it makes many of the mechs in hawken not very effective so im not really concerned.

Wallhacks would prove to be quite benefitial to anyone but thats hard to spot as it is because people produce signatures and I tend to track peoples movements on the otherside of walls and prefire to begin with.

BUT I have seen the video clearly advertising that there are hacks out there.

So Does that mean I classify for #2, Im a hacker or I abuse/exploit things in the game becuase I truly believe I've never encountered a hacker that mattered

Edited by FuryMonster, February 03 2014 - 05:03 AM.

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#14 palad1ne

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Posted February 03 2014 - 05:04 AM

 Sylhiri, on February 03 2014 - 01:50 AM, said:

Damn, can't disagree or else I'm a hacker...

Better not say anything to avoid a witchhunt. Oh **** I already said something. People don't even need proof because asking for it is trolling. Well, better quit the game now.

I also just killed Hawken, you may stone me now.

The Hackerz killing this game not you and crying for proofs is imho pathetic because everyone who is more deep in this material know, that there is no possible method as a "normal" player to record some proof if someone use the actual Framework. Beside this fact, the only possibility is to go illegal too and install the HFW self and risk his own account too. I think this is not worth the trouble plus the sh1tstorm you´ll earn here when you unmask some "well known elite player". So the only clever conclusion is, do nothing and switch to another server. Avoid the pilot and also ignore his dust bombs they mostly drop here.
I got my SStorm only for posting an (long known and used)exploit here in General and get bombed in my Mail with BS that i should remove this Thread so they can use it further against the "noobs". hahahaha. So you can figure out what happened when you hunt down one of their "godlikes" Players.

So.. like oswalt said," be the clever guy and just go away".  


Sad story short. Imho the Developer has the only right to do some actions. They have the tools and its their money they lost every day this Game runs without condom. But i doubt that this is the primal Interest, because they do nothing against exploit users. Seeing every day the same clever guys using long known map exploits. No one cares or probably they simply have not time because some other things have more priority on the schedule.

After the Release, this game shoud go on STeam + VAC and then everything should be fine again. Hope so.

And to add some good tip(which i always done at start) for new players to sharpen they view, so false accusation could be prevented. Watch the stream from numero uno Xacius. See whats possible with good Map Knowledge,Strategic playing, good Aim, awesome timing and superb Ping. There is no magic involved. Maybe a little bit luck, but its mostly skill.
There you have a good comparative, what will work in Hawken and what not. And thats the point to spot someone using a Backpack.  


good day

Edited by palad1ne, February 03 2014 - 05:18 AM.


#15 FuryMonster

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Posted February 03 2014 - 05:06 AM

 LordofNosgoth, on February 03 2014 - 01:14 AM, said:

NOTE TO EVERYONE ESLE: Before you post here, please keep in mind that a community full of unhelpful trolls will kill this game faster than anything else.
about 85-90% of the League of legends and Call of duty communities consist of unhelpful and/or toxic trolls and they seem to be growing steadily, saying this is almost asking to be trolled imo.
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#16 LordofNosgoth

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Posted February 03 2014 - 05:16 AM

 Sylhiri, on February 03 2014 - 01:50 AM, said:

Damn, can't disagree or else I'm a hacker...

Better not say anything to avoid a witchhunt. Oh **** I already said something. People don't even need proof because asking for it is trolling. Well, better quit the game now.

I also just killed Hawken, you may stone me now.

Not at all. You misunderstand the point entirely, as do a few posters below you.

Allow me to clarify: Asking for proof that there are hackers in general, is being a jerk. Asking for proof of specific instances of a hacker is justified. Still confused? See below...

EXAMPLE:

A.) LittleTim accuses DirtyJohnny of hacking. The community says: Okay, fine; prove it. Where's the video. <- this is acceptable and should be the norm.

B.) Player says 'Why isn't there an anti-cheat? Every few games, I run into a hacker!' <- The community replies 'No one hacks Hawken! Wild accusations! Prove it!' <- Someone either has something to hide or is in denial. Either way, this is unacceptable.

Get it now? Not a witchhunt.

Edited by LordofNosgoth, February 03 2014 - 05:20 AM.

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#17 LordofNosgoth

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Posted February 03 2014 - 05:20 AM

On the note of VAC:

I'm not sure how many of you are familiar with VAC, but the last time I looked into it, it only supported games using the Source engine... natively, that is. Games like CoD that included VAC protection had to have the VAC support coded in by the developers themselves and had to coordinate with Valve for its inclusion and upkeep. It also, if memory serves correctly, makes Steam's slice of the pie quite a bit larger. Which is why games (like CoD) that include VAC very rarely see the excessive drops in prices that other games on Steam enjoy.

Oh? And if VAC makes a mistake? Valve's official stance is: 'VAC is flawless and doesn't ever make mistakes, Banned is banned and we will never lift it.' Believe me, they mean it.
"There is no true genius without a tincture of madness." - Aristotle
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"Only two things are infinite: The universe and stupidity... and I'm not sure about the former." - Albert Einstein

#18 Houruck

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Posted February 03 2014 - 05:21 AM

 LordofNosgoth, on February 03 2014 - 05:16 AM, said:

B.) Player says 'Why isn't there an anti-cheat? Every few games, I run into a hacker!' <- The community replies 'No one hacks Hawken! Wild accusations! Prove it!' <- Someone either has something to hide or is in denial. Either way, this is unacceptable.
Who said that? :o

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#19 LordofNosgoth

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Posted February 03 2014 - 05:26 AM

 EliteShooter, on February 03 2014 - 03:42 AM, said:

I HAVE A FEELY FEEL THAT UR A CHEATER !



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Sir, I record every game I play and will gladly post them to my youtube and would absolutely be thrilled to have you subscribe to my channel to watch my slightly above average gameplay. I think that would be fantastic. :D
"There is no true genius without a tincture of madness." - Aristotle
"Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results; that is the definition of insanity." - Albert Einstein
"If everyone is thinking alike, then someone isn't thinking." General George Patton
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle
"Only two things are infinite: The universe and stupidity... and I'm not sure about the former." - Albert Einstein

#20 LordofNosgoth

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Posted February 03 2014 - 05:28 AM

 Houruck, on February 03 2014 - 05:21 AM, said:

 LordofNosgoth, on February 03 2014 - 05:16 AM, said:

B.) Player says 'Why isn't there an anti-cheat? Every few games, I run into a hacker!' <- The community replies 'No one hacks Hawken! Wild accusations! Prove it!' <- Someone either has something to hide or is in denial. Either way, this is unacceptable.
Who said that? :o

Check all of the threads here that complain about cheating. Seems like every other reply is something to the effect of: 'Hacks?? No one hacks in Hawken! Prove it or you're a n00b!' and frankly I'm sick of it.
"There is no true genius without a tincture of madness." - Aristotle
"Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results; that is the definition of insanity." - Albert Einstein
"If everyone is thinking alike, then someone isn't thinking." General George Patton
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle
"Only two things are infinite: The universe and stupidity... and I'm not sure about the former." - Albert Einstein




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