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All the mechs feel a little OP


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#1 mechpilot9775

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Posted October 27 2012 - 09:20 PM

I've had the pleasure and privelage of playing the closed beta for about 6 hours yesterday and a few hours today and first off, I love the way the game looks I love how all the mechs look I love this game so much. However, I feel like each of the mech including Assault, Infiltrator, and all the other ones for that matter feel a little too overpowered, like, is it meant so that you can really kill someone that easily using an assault on an infiltrator? and also a berserker can kill an assuault really easily too. Yesterday I was playing with a berserker who I just decimated in a couple hits. I'm not sure if this is the way its supposed to be but I'd like to see a little more balance in the mechas. Thanks a lot
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#2 AsianJoyKiller

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Posted October 27 2012 - 09:25 PM

1) 6 hours is a relatively short amount of time to get a proper feel for the mechs. I'd suggest putting in more time.
2) Feels like TTK was lowered since Alpha.

I personally enjoyed when the mechs felt a little more beefy.

P.S.
Yes, I have taken the lack of a full set of optimization points into account.

[HWK]HUGHES, on July 03 2013 - 11:07 PM, said:

AJK is right

The Sinful Infil HEAT Cannon Hustler, Cloaking and Smoking, C-Class Swagger, Ballin' n' Brawlin'


#3 TheMadness

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Posted October 27 2012 - 09:26 PM

I'm not sure what you're getting at here. If all the mechs are OP, wouldn't that make them balanced?
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#4 mechpilot9775

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Posted October 27 2012 - 09:30 PM

View PostAsianJoyKiller, on October 27 2012 - 09:25 PM, said:

1) 6 hours is a relatively short amount of time to get a proper feel for the mechs. I'd suggest putting in more time.
2) Feels like TTK was lowered since Alpha.

I personally enjoyed when the mechs felt a little more beefy.

P.S.
Yes, I have taken the lack of a full set of optimization points into account.

Actually, I said 9 hours, and what exactly is TTK? I really just think that the mechs dont do enough damage to the other mechs, so can we get some balance here?
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#5 Immie

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Posted October 27 2012 - 09:36 PM

I agree with AJK in that I would like all mechs to be a little tougher, time to kill is just a bit too fast all around in my opinion. It's not exactly like the game is broken, it'd just suit my taste a little better... and probably also those who start playing the mech game expecting their gargantuan war machine not to go down in 5 seconds or less.

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#6 mechpilot9775

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Posted October 27 2012 - 09:38 PM

View PostImmie, on October 27 2012 - 09:36 PM, said:

I agree with AJK in that I would like all mechs to be a little tougher, time to kill is just a bit too fast all around in my opinion. It's not exactly like the game is broken, it'd just suit my taste a little better... and probably also those who start playing the mech game expecting their gargantuan war machine not to go down in 5 seconds or less.

Exactly this. I want a really meaty mech. A mech that feels really heavy.
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#7 Rooslin

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Posted October 27 2012 - 09:47 PM

the only mech that should feel heavy is a C-class mech the A-class is supose to be light highly manuverable while the B-class is supose to be the imbetween of those two

#8 Gamemako

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Posted October 27 2012 - 09:57 PM

It takes too damn long to kill the big guys already. The longer the relative TTK, the more we get into attrition instead of skill. I personally would increase weapon damage further.

#9 BeefSoupreme

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Posted October 27 2012 - 10:00 PM

If you're wanting a beefy mech and talking only about A class mechs you really need to spend a lot of time with the C classes. They are super beefy and my only complaint about them right now is that their special ability (siege tank mode) is really, really hard to use effectively.

#10 Yourgrandma

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Posted October 27 2012 - 10:07 PM

View PostGamemako, on October 27 2012 - 09:57 PM, said:

It takes too damn long to kill the big guys already. The longer the relative TTK, the more we get into attrition instead of skill. I personally would increase weapon damage further.
Couldn't disagree more. Quicker kills are boring and require less skill to complete. Anyone can put 2-3 rounds into someones back before they have a chance to defend themselves but in this game you actually have a chance to redeem your self when fired upon.   Longer drawn out battles are much more entertaining and allow more time to actually use tactics.

#11 Phos

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Posted October 27 2012 - 10:41 PM

When I read the title I thought this thread was going to be satire but the OP informed me that the future refused to change.

#12 Gamemako

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Posted October 27 2012 - 10:47 PM

View PostYourgrandma, on October 27 2012 - 10:07 PM, said:

Couldn't disagree more. Quicker kills are boring and require less skill to complete. Anyone can put 2-3 rounds into someones back before they have a chance to defend themselves but in this game you actually have a chance to redeem your self when fired upon.   Longer drawn out battles are much more entertaining and allow more time to actually use tactics.

I wish we could run a one-off mod to cut damage in half for one DM game. See if anyone has better than 3:2 K:D ratio. Guarantee it won't happen. No matter your skill, long TTK results in attrition. It gives time for others to get involved and gives lots of opportunities for errors to balance out. That's the thing: when you fuzzy bunny up, I blast you into scrap. If you don't die, I can't take advantage of your errors without letting you rip apart some portion of my armor off, and that builds up very, very quickly. The long-run result is a lot of people standing around bashing one another until one side falls over.

That's not to say that no game should ever use that sort of model. Long TTK is a deliberate design decision which exists to encourage teamwork. That's because teammates are needed to exploit your opponent's errors without taking too many hits yourself. That's what games like MechWarrior Online want to foster. Hawken is a faster-paced game with more concern for dueling and individual play. Increased TTK is bad for that in every way.

View PostPhos, on October 27 2012 - 10:41 PM, said:

When I read the title I thought this thread was going to be satire but the OP informed me that the future refused to change.

:D

Edited by Gamemako, October 27 2012 - 10:48 PM.


#13 IceTonic

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Posted October 27 2012 - 11:17 PM

View PostGamemako, on October 27 2012 - 09:57 PM, said:

It takes too damn long to kill the big guys already. The longer the relative TTK, the more we get into attrition instead of skill. I personally would increase weapon damage further.
Encounters end fast as they are. 1 on 1's typically last like 10 seconds, more if there is extreme cover usage and a mech chase after one gets in the red. 2+ on 1? Cut the time in half for every mech that's got line of sight. It ends very fast, and increasing weapon damage would just make every mech a walking glass-cannon. I don't know why you feel it takes too long, maybe if you connected your hits more often you'd notice that even Class-C's in Turret mode don't even take that long to kill if you aren't hopping in and out of cover to take little-to-no damage.

Your idea of boosting weapon damage sure would make high-burst damage classes happy since they would destroy more than half of most mech's Armor in one burst then. So then it would be probable that a full Offensive SS with Slug/Sabot, +Bullet Damage internals, etc. could have the ability to one-shot or throw a Class A down from 100% Armor to <20% in a single burst. Sure, you can say Class-C's can still take some hits, more like one extra burst or secondary.

Increased TTK isn't an issue, considering throwing in an extra 5 seconds to kill a mech on average isn't a lot of time for the rest of the team to join in on the skirmish. It would make it slightly less about who lands the first burst/secondary hit, which is about the overwhelming majority of my K&D.

View PostBeefSoupreme, on October 27 2012 - 10:00 PM, said:

special ability (siege tank mode)
Only if it really worked the way you described it. Only if.

#14 mechpilot9775

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Posted October 27 2012 - 11:21 PM

I think if we were to increase the TTK while increasing the damage done in all mechs, it would be okay. In other words, buff armor and buff damage done, problem solved.
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#15 AsianJoyKiller

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Posted October 27 2012 - 11:31 PM

View Postmechpilot9775, on October 27 2012 - 11:21 PM, said:

I think if we were to increase the TTK while increasing the damage done in all mechs, it would be okay. In other words, buff armor and buff damage done, problem solved.
TTK is the result of those sorts of changes.
It is not something you apply by itself. It's determined by damage mitigation (defense prots), incoming damage and the like.
And buff both armor and damage is pointless. You just change one or the other as the situation sees fit.

Edited by AsianJoyKiller, October 27 2012 - 11:33 PM.

[HWK]HUGHES, on July 03 2013 - 11:07 PM, said:

AJK is right

The Sinful Infil HEAT Cannon Hustler, Cloaking and Smoking, C-Class Swagger, Ballin' n' Brawlin'


#16 mechpilot9775

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Posted October 27 2012 - 11:33 PM

Yeah just increase that, and the base armor and then just increase the damage equal to the increase of defense
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#17 FluxX

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Posted October 27 2012 - 11:34 PM

View PostImmie, on October 27 2012 - 09:36 PM, said:

I agree with AJK in that I would like all mechs to be a little tougher, time to kill is just a bit too fast all around in my opinion. It's not exactly like the game is broken, it'd just suit my taste a little better... and probably also those who start playing the mech game expecting their gargantuan war machine not to go down in 5 seconds or less.
Time to kill drops significantly with mechs that can dodge. It does not seem there are many "fast" mechs in the beta. Slower mechs can and will get no end of weapons fire aimed at them. I actually managed to rack up a 8 mech kill streak on something like 50hp, just be dodging between fights, and letting the new spawning players take each others HP down. So while it looked like they died quick, they actually had 2-3 mechs shooting 1 target at a time. :P

I'd not really expect many mechs to survive sustained fire very long except the C class (turret ones?). And they have at least 2x hp and take twice as long to take out. But again, they get hit more often due to slow movement.

#18 AsianJoyKiller

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Posted October 27 2012 - 11:37 PM

View Postmechpilot9775, on October 27 2012 - 11:33 PM, said:

Yeah just increase that, and the base armor and then just increase the damage equal to the increase of defense
You're not getting it...
TTK = Time To Kill = How fast someone dies.
Equally increasing damage and defense does nothing.
Basically, if you do 20 damage and have 15 defense, and then you buff it to 200 damage and 150 defense, you'll have the exact same TTK. The only thing that changes is the numbers look bigger.
It only changes when you adjust values of damage output and defense on a basis that's not a 1:1 ratio.

[HWK]HUGHES, on July 03 2013 - 11:07 PM, said:

AJK is right

The Sinful Infil HEAT Cannon Hustler, Cloaking and Smoking, C-Class Swagger, Ballin' n' Brawlin'


#19 mechpilot9775

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Posted October 27 2012 - 11:39 PM

View PostAsianJoyKiller, on October 27 2012 - 11:37 PM, said:

View Postmechpilot9775, on October 27 2012 - 11:33 PM, said:

Yeah just increase that, and the base armor and then just increase the damage equal to the increase of defense
You're not getting it...
TTK = Time To Kill = How fast someone dies.
Equally increasing damage and defense does nothing.
Basically, if you do 20 damage and have 15 defense, and then you buff it to 200 damage and 150 defense, you'll have the exact same TTK. The only thing that changes is the numbers look bigger.
It only changes when you adjust values of damage output and defense on a basis that's not a 1:1 ratio.

Oh I get it. Then is there anyway to make the mechs just feel more powered?
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#20 Dreizehn

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Posted October 27 2012 - 11:42 PM

Personally I'm fine with how much it takes to knock a mech. I find them fairly tough already.

You make mechs too tough and it takes out the point of ambushes and surgical strikes. Whats the point of scrambling for the initiative if its gonna devolve to circle the piece of cover crapshoot matches? Then everybody joins in if its a Team game, and if its a DM - it'll just turn into an absolute clusterfuck.

The duels are fun because you can make hits that count. Sure its over quick - but that only determines like whether you get a kill or feed someone a kill. Kinda need to think about what goes beyond that 1v1. In team games, you gotta plot your next move, repair. In DMs, do you sneak a repair? Get yourself killed quick so you can jump back into the fray full armed?

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