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The Assault and other 'tier 3' mechs


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#1 ThatDamnedBoedy

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Posted January 04 2014 - 02:55 PM

I understand that the assault came out even before the CRT so it is understandable why it is where it is in terms of...its weapons being identical as well as its bonus and emblem.

However, since then we have added the Predator and Raider to the Tier 3 lineup and they both feature unique weapons and bonus abilities to complement their 'elite' nature.  I am not saying that the assault is bad, rather that it should be differentiated somehow from its tier 1 in more than just tuning stats and a bit of extra armor.

A unique assault rifle for instance with superior dps and accuracy to the standard AR.  or perhaps make it another mech to get the KLA as its secondary.

nothing too huge but just a thought.

#2 WarlordZ

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Posted January 04 2014 - 03:09 PM

View PostThatDamnedBoedy, on January 04 2014 - 02:55 PM, said:

A unique assault rifle for instance with superior dps and accuracy to the standard AR.
No to this idea.  New mechs should be sidegrades, not upgrades.  Besides, the AR we already have could use that buff instead.

Having the corsair as a secondary sounds fun though.

#3 ThatDamnedBoedy

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Posted January 04 2014 - 03:25 PM

View PostWarlordZ, on January 04 2014 - 03:09 PM, said:

View PostThatDamnedBoedy, on January 04 2014 - 02:55 PM, said:

A unique assault rifle for instance with superior dps and accuracy to the standard AR.
No to this idea.  New mechs should be sidegrades, not upgrades.  Besides, the AR we already have could use that buff instead.

Having the corsair as a secondary sounds fun though.

Well to be honest in the vertical family they are upgrades to a degree.  The raider being greater than all before it and arguably one of the best mechs in the entire game.  The scout is better than the brawler...and the predator is its own thing as you said more of a side grade.  The Vanguard is unique in its family  and could arguably be said what should be the tier 3 in terms of uniqueness.  We don't have a tier 2 in the tech family much less a tier 3 as these roles would be hard to define without making them massively OP.

Predator I think has the highest burst dps in the game and I don't see why the assault shouldn't have the highest sustained in the game.  It would be very interesting to see the point-d +kla combo on that sucker barring any other changes.

#4 h0B0

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Posted January 04 2014 - 04:13 PM

The original design purpose of the assault was to provide players the ability to own multiple copies of the CR-T mech.

Click me! I dare you.

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View Post[HWK]HUGHES, on March 15 2013 - 08:35 PM, said:

Oh don't always listen to h0B0. Lol.


#5 Bazookagofer

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Posted January 04 2014 - 11:59 PM

This game has already to much vertical progression that could be easily fixed by giving everyone tuning points right from the bat. Also don't tell me some mechs should have better stuff because there "higher tier".

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#6 WarlordZ

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Posted January 05 2014 - 12:17 AM

View PostThatDamnedBoedy, on January 04 2014 - 03:25 PM, said:

View PostWarlordZ, on January 04 2014 - 03:09 PM, said:

View PostThatDamnedBoedy, on January 04 2014 - 02:55 PM, said:

A unique assault rifle for instance with superior dps and accuracy to the standard AR.
No to this idea.  New mechs should be sidegrades, not upgrades.  Besides, the AR we already have could use that buff instead.

Having the corsair as a secondary sounds fun though.
Well to be honest in the vertical family they are upgrades to a degree.  The raider being greater than all before it and arguably one of the best mechs in the entire game.  The scout is better than the brawler...and the predator is its own thing as you said more of a side grade.  The Vanguard is unique in its family  and could arguably be said what should be the tier 3 in terms of uniqueness.  We don't have a tier 2 in the tech family much less a tier 3 as these roles would be hard to define without making them massively OP.
This is a balance failure, not an intentional power progression.  It should be fixed, not encouraged.

View Posth0B0, on January 04 2014 - 04:13 PM, said:

The original design purpose of the assault was to provide players the ability to own multiple copies of the CR-T mech.
Yes, but that's boring.  The corsair/vulcan combo would be unique and interesting, and probably pretty effective.

#7 ThatDamnedBoedy

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Posted January 05 2014 - 09:57 PM

View PostBazookagofer, on January 04 2014 - 11:59 PM, said:

This game has already to much vertical progression that could be easily fixed by giving everyone tuning points right from the bat. Also don't tell me some mechs should have better stuff because there "higher tier".

It seems like an intentional tier system to me.  It isn't that for example a CRT can't beat an assault...its just the assault is better at...well assaulting than the CRT or at least does it differently.

The infiltrator line culminating in the raider for example is a massive upgrade in health and fire power while keeping and even improving mobility for short periods.  The scout is at least in most terms better than the brawler...thus an upgrade.  It has less health but can disengage quickly and heal up.  AT teh same time it has identical burst damage, ability to use items and fit internals...so arguably an upgrade.  The culmination of that tier in the Predator is in having the highest burst dps in game and being able to cloak indefinitely...lay traps and see through walls.  Its not the fastest or the most survivable but it accomplishes the same objective in a different manner.  So yeah...upgrade.

Also this is why they cost more HC/MC to unlock or just take a long time.  The time being the incentive to pay for it.  So yeah higher tier will always cost more and probably be special.  This is what can and will throw off game balance.  Making them better incentives to get people to pay for them early.  Sure your berserker can kill the raider...but he probably has an easier time killing you.

Edited by ThatDamnedBoedy, January 05 2014 - 10:00 PM.


#8 Daronicus

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Posted January 05 2014 - 10:18 PM

View PostThatDamnedBoedy, on January 05 2014 - 09:57 PM, said:

View PostBazookagofer, on January 04 2014 - 11:59 PM, said:

This game has already to much vertical progression that could be easily fixed by giving everyone tuning points right from the bat. Also don't tell me some mechs should have better stuff because there "higher tier".

It seems like an intentional tier system to me.  It isn't that for example a CRT can't beat an assault...its just the assault is better at...well assaulting than the CRT or at least does it differently.

The infiltrator line culminating in the raider for example is a massive upgrade in health and fire power while keeping and even improving mobility for short periods.  The scout is at least in most terms better than the brawler...thus an upgrade.  It has less health but can disengage quickly and heal up.  AT teh same time it has identical burst damage, ability to use items and fit internals...so arguably an upgrade.  The culmination of that tier in the Predator is in having the highest burst dps in game and being able to cloak indefinitely...lay traps and see through walls.  Its not the fastest or the most survivable but it accomplishes the same objective in a different manner.  So yeah...upgrade.

Also this is why they cost more HC/MC to unlock or just take a long time.  The time being the incentive to pay for it.  So yeah higher tier will always cost more and probably be special.  This is what can and will throw off game balance.  Making them better incentives to get people to pay for them early.  Sure your berserker can kill the raider...but he probably has an easier time killing you.

I think you're reading way too much into it.  CRT and Assault are pretty much identical even now, honestly.  Raider and Infiltrator are on pretty equal footing right now, in my opinion.  I vehemently disagree that Scout is a direct upgrade from the Brawler, though honestly that's a heavily biased opinion, but if you think the Predator of all things is an upgrade to the Scout, you're kinda smoking something funny.

You keep glossing over the big tradeoffs like they don't matter.  The Scout gets great mobility at the cost of having less than half the health of the Brawler.  The Predator gets huge amounts of burst damage and infinite cloak in exchange for probably the worst dueling presence in the game, some of the fastest overheat times, and the huge time investment to actually pull off that burst damage.

You have correctly picked up on the fact that the Raider fits better into the current meta than the Berserker, but that's more a problem with some ongoing balance issues with the AR/SMC/Vulcan triad.  Though it's still underpowered compared to the Raider, I think the Berserker is viable in higher level play, if only barely.

I'll confess that I don't really like the fact that tier three mechs cost more MC.  I'd much rather that all mechs have flat MC rates and scaling HC rates.  Especially with the Assault, it seems like noob bait to me.  But that's about where my complaints end; I have no concerns about higher tier mechs being systematically made better than lower-tier mechs because of greed.

#9 FenixStryk

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Posted January 06 2014 - 04:52 AM

Tier is a word with a lot of baggage, so I can see the confusion. However, Mechs in Hawken are not disposable; you don't replace your old Tier 1 Mech with the next level up like an old pair of shoes. Every Mech has a specific role and the order they are unlocked has no bearing on whether or not that Mech is better or worse.

The Tier system exists only as a method of distributing additional Mechs to free players in a way that prevents beginners from jumping directly into the more difficult Mechs to pilot. This is exactly why the Grenadier is a Tier 3 Mech; telemetry gathered prior to Ascension illustrated that the Grenadier was the least-used, worst-performing Mech in the game (at the time) due partially to how unwieldy the Rev-GL is, so changes were made to improve it and the Mech itself was gated behind Tier 3 and a higher price tag.

Do not let current imbalances deceive you. While the Raider is certainly strong, it is not proof that tiers are intended to be vertical. If anything, the Assault and Predator are the worst Mechs in their unlock order despite being Tier 3s. As time passes, Mechs will be reevaluated and brought back into line. I believe the AM-SAR Reaper is next on the list...

It was fun while it lasted.


#10 ThatDamnedBoedy

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Posted January 19 2014 - 05:49 PM

View PostDaronicus, on January 05 2014 - 10:18 PM, said:

View PostThatDamnedBoedy, on January 05 2014 - 09:57 PM, said:

View PostBazookagofer, on January 04 2014 - 11:59 PM, said:

This game has already to much vertical progression that could be easily fixed by giving everyone tuning points right from the bat. Also don't tell me some mechs should have better stuff because there "higher tier".

It seems like an intentional tier system to me.  It isn't that for example a CRT can't beat an assault...its just the assault is better at...well assaulting than the CRT or at least does it differently.

The infiltrator line culminating in the raider for example is a massive upgrade in health and fire power while keeping and even improving mobility for short periods.  The scout is at least in most terms better than the brawler...thus an upgrade.  It has less health but can disengage quickly and heal up.  AT teh same time it has identical burst damage, ability to use items and fit internals...so arguably an upgrade.  The culmination of that tier in the Predator is in having the highest burst dps in game and being able to cloak indefinitely...lay traps and see through walls.  Its not the fastest or the most survivable but it accomplishes the same objective in a different manner.  So yeah...upgrade.

Also this is why they cost more HC/MC to unlock or just take a long time.  The time being the incentive to pay for it.  So yeah higher tier will always cost more and probably be special.  This is what can and will throw off game balance.  Making them better incentives to get people to pay for them early.  Sure your berserker can kill the raider...but he probably has an easier time killing you.

I think you're reading way too much into it.  CRT and Assault are pretty much identical even now, honestly.  Raider and Infiltrator are on pretty equal footing right now, in my opinion.  I vehemently disagree that Scout is a direct upgrade from the Brawler, though honestly that's a heavily biased opinion, but if you think the Predator of all things is an upgrade to the Scout, you're kinda smoking something funny.

You keep glossing over the big tradeoffs like they don't matter.  The Scout gets great mobility at the cost of having less than half the health of the Brawler.  The Predator gets huge amounts of burst damage and infinite cloak in exchange for probably the worst dueling presence in the game, some of the fastest overheat times, and the huge time investment to actually pull off that burst damage.

You have correctly picked up on the fact that the Raider fits better into the current meta than the Berserker, but that's more a problem with some ongoing balance issues with the AR/SMC/Vulcan triad.  Though it's still underpowered compared to the Raider, I think the Berserker is viable in higher level play, if only barely.

I'll confess that I don't really like the fact that tier three mechs cost more MC.  I'd much rather that all mechs have flat MC rates and scaling HC rates.  Especially with the Assault, it seems like noob bait to me.  But that's about where my complaints end; I have no concerns about higher tier mechs being systematically made better than lower-tier mechs because of greed.

The assault could use a unique weapons system is all.  nothing else really wrong with it.  But there is a blatant tier system.  the scout is (precluding a technician being involved) better than the brawler in all regards that actually matter.  A mountain of armor doesn't make up for lack of mobility/turn cap.  The Predator is difficult to use well, but making the most of your cloak and vision...perhaps even doing what one guy suggested (reversing your primary/secondary fire binds) makes the most sense for it, at least with the breacher.  

The berserker is one of my favorite mechs and the air dynamics build is amazing in the right hands.  The damage amp ability with the point D just rips any mech up.  Of course the problem is still the scout's hit-scan burst dps.  Scout should have half the RoF of the brawler just to balance it out and make it seem more scouty.

#11 JeffMagnum

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Posted January 19 2014 - 08:08 PM

View PostThatDamnedBoedy, on January 19 2014 - 05:49 PM, said:

But there is a blatant tier system.
No there isn't.

View PostThatDamnedBoedy, on January 19 2014 - 05:49 PM, said:

the scout is (precluding a technician being involved) better than the brawler in all regards that actually matter.
No it isn't.

View PostThatDamnedBoedy, on January 19 2014 - 05:49 PM, said:

A mountain of armor doesn't make up for lack of mobility/turn cap.
The turn cap for all of the mechs is identical.

View PostThatDamnedBoedy, on January 19 2014 - 05:49 PM, said:

The Predator is difficult to use well, but making the most of your cloak and vision...perhaps even doing what one guy suggested (reversing your primary/secondary fire binds) makes the most sense for it, at least with the breacher.
Pred isn't as powerful in direct combat as the other mechs are mostly due to the EOC-P being difficult to use and generating a ridiculous amount of heat--even if someone manages to hit all of their shots with the mech, they're still not going to be nearly as effective as a good Scout when they're up against multiple enemies since the Pred's high heat gen limits how much damage it can do in an extended engagement.

View PostThatDamnedBoedy, on January 19 2014 - 05:49 PM, said:

Scout should have half the RoF of the brawler just to balance it out and make it seem more scouty.
Flak needs to have its effective range reduced more than anything else; what you're proposing would kill the weapon entirely on the Scout. If the range nerf doesn't prove sufficient to bring Flak in line, the burst could incrementally be reduced until it's fine.

#12 Daronicus

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Posted January 20 2014 - 12:37 AM

View PostThatDamnedBoedy, on January 19 2014 - 05:49 PM, said:

But there is a blatant tier system.  the scout is (precluding a technician being involved) better than the brawler in all regards that actually matter.  A mountain of armor doesn't make up for lack of mobility/turn cap.

Nobody is ever going to convince me this is the case.  I'd go so far as to say that in a one-on-one, the Brawler has the advantage.  I find it somewhat odd that you frame the Predator's inherent issues as pilot skill but the Brawler's as hard-wired mechanics.  To be frank, I think it's the other way around.  Heat and mobility limitations leave the Predator with not much in a duel, and even in team fights are easy to pick off unless they maintain a healthy distance.  They're very good at controlling space and softening up or picking off targets, but in an all-out brawl, they're much less effective.

Anyways, I don't disagree that the Assault could maybe use a more unique weapon combo now that having duplicate mechs is kind of worthless.  I don't think the conclusion is wrong, but I do strongly disagree with the premise of tiers offering direct power upgrades and especially that such an upgrade is "blatant."

#13 ThatDamnedBoedy

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Posted January 20 2014 - 07:29 PM

I've played the brawler plenty to know that any half assed scout in a 1v1 situation will absolutely face roll a brawler at close range.  if the brawler magically manages to maintain medium range *somehow* then it has a distinct advantage that the scout has a tough time circle strafing due to the small radial turn angle.  This is however rarely the case on most maps.

ex: Prosk - close quarters heaven, dodge cooldown timer in the sub-second range makes maintaining a decent effective range difficult for the brawler.

ex: wreckage - in deathmatch and tdm most of the fighting happens in the wrecked interior.  Some fighting happens at mid range but most is close up brawling and multiple avenues of attack make it hard to keep your back to a decent defensive position.  In Siege its another matter entirely.

Last Eco, Facility and to a lesser extent Bazaar allow for mid-range combat.

Uptown to me is the most balanced map (for the brawler) and the brawler can do well here with the right team.  The scout rules on every single map with its ability to engage and disengage...play peekaboo and have really really high burst dps.  It isn't a case of "learn 2 aim nub" and more of a case of scout has damage, mobility, maneuverability, and a tiny hit box.  

If it were up to me I'd get rid of the flak cannon on it completely.  Heat Scouts are tough too but a bit more tactical to play and I don't see them as much.

The predator...yeah its EOC-P is a pretty high heat generator, but doing corner play, setting up ambushes and laying traps works better on some maps than others.  Uptown has lots of choke points to take advantage of, and nearly every siege game offers the opportunity to contribute highly.  Missile assault is pretty favorable to the predator as well if you can anticipate the enemy movements...plus making use of cover lets you hide and move being super annoying.  You are right that it isn't a solo mech per-se but slap an EMP mk I on there and single out someone separated from the group.  You can do eet!

The brawler overheats faster than the scout...so scout can fire more burst shots than the brawler.  So the brawler really has to make sure its hits land.  This is stupid that a larger mech has poor heat dissipation abilities...its size and mass alone should let it sink heat more effectively but hey physics is for retards apparently.

No one can possibly change my mind that scouts are worse than brawlers.  Boo hoo you have limited fuel and have to use your ability tactically...if I go into turret mode against you in a 1v1...you run around back and 1 shot me.

If you're getting stuck at mid-range in a scout you are doing it wrong.

#14 JeffMagnum

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Posted January 20 2014 - 08:14 PM

View PostThatDamnedBoedy, on January 20 2014 - 07:29 PM, said:

I've played the brawler plenty to know that any half assed scout in a 1v1 situation will absolutely face roll a brawler at close range.  if the brawler magically manages to maintain medium range *somehow* then it has a distinct advantage that the scout has a tough time circle strafing due to the small radial turn angle. This is however rarely the case on most maps.

How is Scout possibly better at close range than Brawler is? A decent Brawler will wreck a Scout if it decides to stay at facehugging range simply because the Brawler has enough armor to easily trade shots one for one and come out victorious. A Flak Scout should ideally be playing at midrange with an abundance of cover if it's fighting a Flak Brawler (and tbh I usually just run off from good Brawler pilots when I'm in Scout), because the Brawler can't close the distance as easily and facehug and also because it takes more damage from Flak exchanges due to its larger hitbox.

And honestly, I have the feeling that Daronicus and I could both kill pretty much any Scout player in the game if they stayed out in the open and did nothing but dodge and strafe around our Brawlers.

View PostThatDamnedBoedy, on January 20 2014 - 07:29 PM, said:

The predator...yeah its EOC-P is a pretty high heat generator, but doing corner play, setting up ambushes and laying traps works better on some maps than others.  Uptown has lots of choke points to take advantage of, and nearly every siege game offers the opportunity to contribute highly.  Missile assault is pretty favorable to the predator as well if you can anticipate the enemy movements...plus making use of cover lets you hide and move being super annoying.  You are right that it isn't a solo mech per-se but slap an EMP mk I on there and single out someone separated from the group.  You can do eet!
You're still saying that the Pred is more effective than the Scout if both are played optimally? I think you're entirely alone in that opinion.

View PostThatDamnedBoedy, on January 20 2014 - 07:29 PM, said:

No one can possibly change my mind that scouts are worse than brawlers.  Boo hoo you have limited fuel and have to use your ability tactically...if I go into turret mode against you in a 1v1...you run around back and 1 shot me.
Probably because there aren't many people that believe Scouts to be worse overall than Brawlers. Daronicus and I were responding to you saying that there's a blatant tier system and that Brawlers are basically worse than Scouts in all scenarios; Scout fits the current pub meta better, but there are definitely situations in which Brawler is more effective. It's an entirely viable choice, and it's probably more viable in organized matches than Scout is.

Edited by JeffMagnum, January 20 2014 - 08:19 PM.


#15 nokari

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Posted January 20 2014 - 08:32 PM

Everything you're saying about mech superiority is opinion and not fact. We've all seen one type of mech steamroll another that you say is inferior 100x over. Each mech has it's own advantages and disadvantages that players can either capitalize on or waste, which is why this is a skill-based game, not who-has-the-best-mech game. You pick which mechs you're the best with, because there isn't a best mech in the game for everyone. Watch some of the top players using all these mechs and you'll understand.

As for the tiered unlock system, that's not an indication of intentional vertical progression in terms of which mechs are better. They put mechs in tiers going from least difficult to most difficult to use. Prior to the Ascension patch, they did this by giving mechs difficulty star ratings. Whether they're accurate ratings is debatable. I could still win match after match with my CR-T if you want to test me.

Edited by nokari, January 20 2014 - 08:48 PM.

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#16 Daronicus

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Posted January 20 2014 - 08:42 PM

Look, I play a lot of Brawler.  I know its ins and outs as well as anyone on the forums and better than most.  I play with the best players in the game, and Scouts are just not that scary.  They're ridiculously easy to push out of position, and you can afford to miss half of your shots before you're in danger.  It's true that there probably isn't a class out there I have more trouble killing because they can just escape, but I honestly don't pay that much mind.  A Scout running away at half health is still out of the fight, and thus not of great use to their team.  It's also true they can wreak havoc on uncoordinated teams, probably moreso than any other mech save maybe a really good SS.  Shrug.  That is a player skill issue.

I even think the Scout is a little overpowered.  But it's not some sky-is-falling thing where the Scout totally dominates the current meta.  I just think it could use some minor adjustments, which should probably not touch its health or agility.  For the record, I actually really like the idea of a heat nerf to the Scout and a buff to the Brawler--even with cooling units, overheating on Brawler is a death sentence.

And lastly, I have never once denied that the Predator can be played effectively when laying traps and whatnot.  What I have said is that that effectiveness comes with dramatic tradeoffs, including a large time investment and terrible dueling presence (which even in team modes is important).  One thing I haven't mentioned is that you're also space constrained.  If an enemy engages from a different direction, all of your planning can be for naught.  This makes the mech extremely hard to use in current meta and even a little reliant on luck and enemy inattention.  I don't for a second doubt that at some point we'll be seeing high-level Pred play, but even then it won't do what Scout or Brawler can do.  Which is pretty much what makes something a sidegrade rather than an upgrade.


To get back on topic, though, since this is turning into another "ZOMG SCOUT SO OP" "ZOMG NO ITS NOT" argument, I can't help but feel that you are ignoring two of the families that should maybe be considered.  Suppression, for example, all works very well as sidegrades, each mech offering something a little different than the others but not really "better," and for Ranged, the Reaper is pretty much just straight up worse than the SS, despite my preference for it (<3 I'll always love you, Reaper, even if I do suck with you now).  Add in the family in question, Assault, where by your own admission the last mech again doesn't offer an upgrade, and you have three out of five families (excluding Support since there's only one mech) that do not offer direct upgrades, even if I accepted your arguments about Raider and Scout/Predator.  Which, to reiterate, I still don't.


Edit:  Sorry, I should just leave this alone, but do you really think the Brawler does better on Bazaar and Last Eco than Prosk and Wreckage?  Last Eco is probably the very worst map for Brawler.  Too many flanking routes means that it's way too easy to get surrounded, and there aren't enough corners to bide your time.  The paths are too open to advance safely without being Hellfire'd/Sabot'd to death.  Furthermore, the huge hitbox gets caught on all sorts of irregular geometry.  Half of the reason I dislike Last Eco so much is because I don't feel I can play my Brawler to full effectiveness there.

Edited by Daronicus, January 20 2014 - 09:04 PM.





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