 4
 4
 
Remove Heat Manipulation From Incinerator
#1
Posted May 17 2014 - 01:42 PM
The SAARE has the highest DPS of any secondary by a good margin and yet it still has the added bonus of generating heat on the enemy for each hit. It's an unnecessary bonus for a weapon that only requires mediocre aim, and is simply frustrating to play against.
Also, the Incinerator passive heat degeneration aura is in the same boat. For a mech as strong as the Incinerator, being able to decrease your allies' heat constantly with no effort or tradeoff is entirely unnecessary.
Why does the Incinerator have these features? Would it be an underpowered mech without them?

Offering coaching on all mechs, maps, and gametypes, PM if interested.
Violent Resolution - http://vr-gaming.org/
Hawken IRC - #hawkenscrim
#2
Posted May 17 2014 - 01:44 PM
 "If at first you do not succeed... reload"
 "If at first you do not succeed... reload"
#3
Posted May 17 2014 - 01:46 PM
#4
Posted May 17 2014 - 01:56 PM
Edited by shosca, May 17 2014 - 01:59 PM.
#5
Posted May 17 2014 - 02:29 PM
 
					
					 "OFFICIAL SHIELD BEARER"
"OFFICIAL SHIELD BEARER"#6
Posted May 17 2014 - 02:33 PM
#7
Posted May 17 2014 - 03:20 PM
#8
Posted May 17 2014 - 03:21 PM
I could understand all of those things should he be a B class, but he's not.

eth0 said:
 Sylhiri, on July 13 2014 - 10:29 PM, said:
Sylhiri, on July 13 2014 - 10:29 PM, said:
 SatelliteJack, on July 13 2014 - 10:46 PM, said:
SatelliteJack, on July 13 2014 - 10:46 PM, said:
#9
Posted May 17 2014 - 04:51 PM
 Dew, on April 04 2014 - 01:15 PM, said:
Dew, on April 04 2014 - 01:15 PM, said:
#10
Posted May 17 2014 - 05:21 PM
 shosca, on May 17 2014 - 01:56 PM, said:
shosca, on May 17 2014 - 01:56 PM, said:
I agree that heat gen off of the secondary SAARE isn't entirely necessary BUT you're also forgetting the Incinerator also steals heat from enemies which is entirely unnecessary so it does balance out in that sense if you're in close proximity with the Incinerator. Unless you're constantly getting hit by SAARE shots it won't really affect you and if you're close enough to the Incinerator you'll probably lose more heat then you gain if they're using the B4BY. The PPA is a total gambit in the sense that unless you can manage your heat well you'll isolate yourself from the team and the extra heat gen from the SAARE could be seen as a way to balance the heat you gain when you're near enemies. The M4MA is the main reason I'd think this mechanic exists as the M4MA's heat debuff+SAARE is the only way an Incinerator could overheat a mech quicker at a noticeable rate but the M4MA user needs to be good at landing their shots for this to happen.
I think you guys are downplaying how hard heat management can be if you were to constantly use secondary SAARE shots on the Incinerator. Constant big balls require either the PPA or M4MA and in a heated battle you'll be relying on your secondary SAARE a lot more then your primary meaning you'll have lower DPS overall.
Edited by jrkong, May 17 2014 - 05:58 PM.
#11
Posted May 18 2014 - 12:25 AM
it should not have such support, DPS and debuff capabilities simultaneously. Only one at a time.
Other problems:
High sustained DPS. It doesn't overheat at all. It means that in a vanguard/incenerator duel vanguard would certainly overheat and would have to hide to cool down.
Aliies don't overheat. Means infinite tech repair and even more sustained damage from other mechs.
Here's the list of tweaks that I sugest:
Turn off heat absorbtion aura when primary weapon fired. Turn it on again after 1 second. Pilot should choose support or DPS. It should also fix the infinite repair problem on Inc/Tech combo.
Change SAARE fire modes.
Low: Remove damage, add heat transfer. Make heat transfer remote i.e. some heat transferred even if projectile didn't hit the target but missed 1 meter.
High: Remove heat transfer. Reduce damage to low's level (80-60)
In order to heat up your enemies you should give up DPS and vice versa.
#12
Posted May 18 2014 - 03:29 AM
To realize its full dps on the alternate mode you really need to be using the ppa. While powerful I find the ppa incinerator to be one of the hardest weapon combos in the game for how you have to micro manage it.
I think the heat gen on enemies could probably be toned down a little.
#13
Posted May 18 2014 - 03:57 AM
 Fstroke, on May 18 2014 - 03:29 AM, said:
Fstroke, on May 18 2014 - 03:29 AM, said:
I don't understand this post, I don't understand this thread.
In the current version, mechs have an INCREDIBLE sustain of heat. People can continously fire their weapons and even take out a Brawler without overheating. In addition, we have this mysterious insta 3-sec-cooldown- feature wich allows mechs to cool down almost instantly.
The heat gen of the Incinerator is a joke. It adds SLIGHTLY abit of heat to enemies and makes SOME problems which is making the enemy UNABLE to fire their weapons FOREVER.
In my opinion, heating needs to be INCREASED by ATLEAST 200% for EVERY mech.
So SPAMMING across the battlefield is NO LONGER possible.
/rage
"Things change ... thank god, otherwise we would still hunt animals to survive and forge weapons of stone."
- FakeName

#14
Posted May 18 2014 - 04:38 AM
I can almost sense the onslaught of incinerator op threads that the usual bandwagoners jump on though.
#15
Posted May 18 2014 - 04:43 AM
 FakeName, on May 18 2014 - 03:57 AM, said:
FakeName, on May 18 2014 - 03:57 AM, said:
In the current version, mechs have an INCREDIBLE sustain of heat. People can continously fire their weapons and even take out a Brawler without overheating. In addition, we have this mysterious insta 3-sec-cooldown- feature wich allows mechs to cool down almost instantly.
Try playing a mech with 6 seconds of cooldown against dodging light mechs.You'll see that it's very easy to overheat and hard to cool down. And there's no magical "coolant injection" button for them.
Edited by Van_Tuz, May 18 2014 - 04:47 AM.
#16
Posted May 18 2014 - 05:08 AM
 Van_Tuz, on May 18 2014 - 04:43 AM, said:
Van_Tuz, on May 18 2014 - 04:43 AM, said:
 FakeName, on May 18 2014 - 03:57 AM, said:
FakeName, on May 18 2014 - 03:57 AM, said:
In the current version, mechs have an INCREDIBLE sustain of heat. People can continously fire their weapons and even take out a Brawler without overheating. In addition, we have this mysterious insta 3-sec-cooldown- feature wich allows mechs to cool down almost instantly.
Try playing a mech with 6 seconds of cooldown against dodging light mechs.You'll see that it's very easy to overheat and hard to cool down. And there's no magical "coolant injection" button for them.
Are you talking about the zerker? I tried him out myself, have to say pretty easy to use and high rewarding. Additionally this dmg buff is sweet against B and C classes.
However, never overheated.
You wanna know why?
I didn't shoot if I was going to miss my target. Could even take out 2 B classes without overheating. And that's the point. If you overheat because you missed too much of your shots (and you have WAY TOO MUCH shots to miss before you overheat) then it's your own fault. I think no mech should be able to kill a C-class without overheating assuming EVERY shot hits. The C-class should have 10% of his HP left when the opponent mech overheats. So these calsses will become real hard rocks to crack.
But now, a Zerker can easily take out a whole team by just waiting for 4 seconds after each kill for cooldown.
I repeat: overheating is a joke. Especially on burst loadouts (e.g. EOC Infiltrator), you NEVER overheat. IF you still overheat, it is your fault. Either you missed your targets, or you just killed 3 mechs. Take a breath! Look for cover!
Hardly anyone is still hiding behind cover due to their extreme heat sustain.
"Things change ... thank god, otherwise we would still hunt animals to survive and forge weapons of stone."
- FakeName

#17
Posted May 18 2014 - 05:24 AM
 FakeName, on May 18 2014 - 05:08 AM, said:
FakeName, on May 18 2014 - 05:08 AM, said:
 Van_Tuz, on May 18 2014 - 04:43 AM, said:
Van_Tuz, on May 18 2014 - 04:43 AM, said:
 FakeName, on May 18 2014 - 03:57 AM, said:
FakeName, on May 18 2014 - 03:57 AM, said:
In the current version, mechs have an INCREDIBLE sustain of heat. People can continously fire their weapons and even take out a Brawler without overheating. In addition, we have this mysterious insta 3-sec-cooldown- feature wich allows mechs to cool down almost instantly.
Try playing a mech with 6 seconds of cooldown against dodging light mechs.You'll see that it's very easy to overheat and hard to cool down. And there's no magical "coolant injection" button for them.
Are you talking about the zerker? I tried him out myself, have to say pretty easy to use and high rewarding. Additionally this dmg buff is sweet against B and C classes.
However, never overheated.
You wanna know why?
I didn't shoot if I was going to miss my target. Could even take out 2 B classes without overheating. And that's the point. If you overheat because you missed too much of your shots (and you have WAY TOO MUCH shots to miss before you overheat) then it's your own fault. I think no mech should be able to kill a C-class without overheating assuming EVERY shot hits. The C-class should have 10% of his HP left when the opponent mech overheats. So these calsses will become real hard rocks to crack.
But now, a Zerker can easily take out a whole team by just waiting for 4 seconds after each kill for cooldown.
I repeat: overheating is a joke. Especially on burst loadouts (e.g. EOC Infiltrator), you NEVER overheat. IF you still overheat, it is your fault. Either you missed your targets, or you just killed 3 mechs. Take a breath! Look for cover!
Hardly anyone is still hiding behind cover due to their extreme heat sustain.
No no. I think he's talking about heavies like Vanguard or Brawler. Overheating against an A mech usually means death in those guys.
 Van_Tuz, on May 18 2014 - 12:25 AM, said:
Van_Tuz, on May 18 2014 - 12:25 AM, said:
it should not have such support, DPS and debuff capabilities simultaneously. Only one at a time.
Other problems:
High sustained DPS. It doesn't overheat at all. It means that in a vanguard/incenerator duel vanguard would certainly overheat and would have to hide to cool down.
Aliies don't overheat. Means infinite tech repair and even more sustained damage from other mechs.
Here's the list of tweaks that I sugest:
Turn off heat absorbtion aura when primary weapon fired. Turn it on again after 1 second. Pilot should choose support or DPS. It should also fix the infinite repair problem on Inc/Tech combo.
Change SAARE fire modes.
Low: Remove damage, add heat transfer. Make heat transfer remote i.e. some heat transferred even if projectile didn't hit the target but missed 1 meter.
High: Remove heat transfer. Reduce damage to low's level (80-60)
#18
Posted May 18 2014 - 10:34 AM
 FakeName, on May 18 2014 - 03:57 AM, said:
FakeName, on May 18 2014 - 03:57 AM, said:
It's much more significant than you think. Check out Fury's video from this thread to see just how much heat the SAARE generates even without the mama bear.
 FakeName, on May 18 2014 - 03:57 AM, said:
FakeName, on May 18 2014 - 03:57 AM, said:
That's a joke, right? C class durability is already through the roof, pretty much the last thing they need is a buff to that.
Back on topic, if these features aren't going to be removed or significantly nerfed, then the Incin should be in a hard support role with heat being the focus of the mech. This would mean nerfing its damage substantially, and probably its health as well, so that it doesn't fill multiple roles simultaneously.

Offering coaching on all mechs, maps, and gametypes, PM if interested.
Violent Resolution - http://vr-gaming.org/
Hawken IRC - #hawkenscrim
#19
Posted May 18 2014 - 10:51 AM
 ThirdEyE, on May 18 2014 - 10:34 AM, said:
ThirdEyE, on May 18 2014 - 10:34 AM, said:
If they were removing the heat generation on SAARE they should also remove the heat siphoning off of enemies. As long as there's some sort of balance there as well I'm fine with it since enemies shouldn't reap benefits off of an enemy mech.
As for changing the Incinerator to a hard support mech with your changes, if they were doing it that way then they'll have to give heat generation to the bullets of all the miniguns and possibly buff the heat generation the SAARE does.
#20
Posted May 18 2014 - 10:55 AM
 jrkong, on May 18 2014 - 10:51 AM, said:
jrkong, on May 18 2014 - 10:51 AM, said:
If the Incin ever gets forced into a hard support role, I would probably be okay with the weapon mechanics being changed.
You can't treat a mech like a human being. A MECH NEEDS LOVE!
Raider-chan! Where have you been all my life!? <3
1 user(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users

 


 
				
				
			 
				
				
			 
				
				
			 
				
				
			 
				
				
			 
				
				
			 
				
				
			 
				
				
			 
				
				
			 
				
				
			 
				
				
			 
				
				
			 
				
				
			









 
								




