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Hawken in its current state: what happened?


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#1 superbank

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Posted January 04 2013 - 12:53 PM

Disclaimer: I am aware Hawken is technically in beta and subject to change at any time. Hopefully things do change. I will be speculating on many things so feel free to point out any inconsistencies. Feel free to add your own observations on Hawken in it's current state. These problems are plain as day to me so hopefully the devs will make the necessary changes. And if you think any of this is too strong or you need to unnecessarily defend Hawken, realize I make these criticisms out of the love for the game. I want to make it better. I've put in 60 hours so far in OB and I've enjoyed it but we can't ignore that things could be better.

Not Ready For Open Beta:

Matchmaking

This is the big one that's probably hurting them the most right now. There seems to be no separation of higher level players and new players. Even into the next round it does not discern who the best players were and separates them (note: if you're friends it shouldn't separate you). In my experience it puts us on the same team so we can curb stomp noobs again. This is probably putting off many new players.

Not having competent matchmaking or a server list for the games public release is a big misstep. Current gamers expect a matching system so they can jump into a level-appropriate match and have fun. A server list at least with the ability to name it "new players only" would go a long way. (And yes I've read they're going to bring the list back. It's not here yet.)

Customization

If their goal is to make money by selling cosmetic changes than their current system is working against that. Having a bunch of pre-built mechs in the mech shop and parts clearly labeled as part of a set says "this is what the mechs are supposed to look like." When you own a mech it doesn't feel like it's "your mech" it's just "a mech" like everybody elses. What they should have done was let you choose from a large list of parts: Build Your Mech. Maybe for your first free mech there are three sets of parts to choose from, and a load more if you pay. Letting the player decide what their mechs are supposed to look like from the beginning will cement the idea of customization in their minds which will make it more likely for them to buy other parts for their next mech. Funny thing is this is what they were originally going for if you watch their videos.

I understand why we have pre-builts though. From a game design perspective having a distinct look for each playstyle lets you know what to expect on the battlefield. When you see the medium build round-top body you know to duck for cover because missiles will be flying your way soon.

They're also leaving money on the table because the mech editor doesn't let you change more than one item at a time. How are we supposed to know what it all looks like together? How was this not included considering the videos of their previous editor allowing multiple changes?

Changes From Old Builds:

Hovering

Their was a recent thread about the original Hawken videos that went viral and how different the game is now. The biggest difference I saw was the hovering mechanic. Who else wants that game badly? fuzzy bunny. It looked as if there was actually a use for hovering. There appeared to be meaningful physics and aerial control that you could use to your advantage. A mechanic you could work towards mastering and feel badass when you used it correctly. Right now the hovering is useless and slow. It's like a sloth playing with a toy helicopter and has about as much depth.

The thing is those weren't just concept videos. I'm pretty sure they had actual builds that played like that. The PAX11 video was released in a ramp up to their demo debut at the PAX event I believe, and the hovering appeared to be intact in that video.

Sound Design

This one I'm not sure I can fault them entirely. The sound design in the early videos was AMAZING. It felt so right for what they were going for. The reality is the sounds were probably meticulously adjusted and edited for those video, so basically a target they were shooting for. Hopefully they can get to that quality by "full release".

Large Maps

I don't know about you but when I saw large cities in the early videos I imagined we would be playing in large cities. The teams were plodding along, looking at things, activating turrets, not necessarily fighting at all times like it is now. It made me reminisce about playing Mechwarrior 4 online. In the beginning of the match you'd have to walk towards the middle of the usually large map unsure of where the enemy team would be. This could work in Hawken, but obviously it would not be for everyone. The option of playing on big maps would be cool.

Resistance to Logical Change:

Turret Mode

This really, really needs to change. Turret mode is useless in almost all situations. If I ever see a turret I think free kill. Everyone else does too. You're dead in the water if you even have a chance to get past its slow startup animation. Turret mode needs a movement speed increase to become viable. No dashing, boosting or hovering but at least SOME WAY to get to cover. Maybe not full speed walking but like at least half speed. As it is now turrets just eat too much damage, it's not worth it.

EMP

The concept of the EMP, the very idea of it in any form, is just bad. It's like if you were in a boxing match with magical magnetic gloves. Every minute (Seriously, is the cooldown really only a minute? I read this in a thread, that's completely ridiculous.) your opponent can press a button on his belt which automatically locks your hands behind your back for 7 seconds while you run around the ring taking the worst blows possible. That's the EMP. I don't even think there is an equivalent in any respected competitive game (and if you're gonna come in here to give examples think of the ease of use and duration). It's not fun and completely unfair. The proposed idea of an overheat item that is not nearly as powerful would be an acceptable alternative for a "crowd clearing item".

Meteor:

Meteor Points

Seriously? Don't make up an imaginary currency to mask the real cost like Microsofts 360 space bucks. Respect us by putting the real money value.

F2P

Originally Adhesive was shooting for a cross platform 360, PS3, PC release. This implies that they wanted it to be a regular downloadable title you pay for upfront and enjoy its full content. In multiple interviews they said they were in talks with publishers to make it happen, but ultimately I think a compromise had to be made and now Hawken is a F2P game. Other posters have correlated Adhesives/Meteors F2P approach with the dumbing down of customization and mechanics. The idea is since it's free things need to be made easier for people who don't know anything about the game so they can get hooked more easily. Is this the root of the problem? And what about their approach/missing features for OB? Was there a push to get it out before it was ready? (12,12,12? How convenient.)

Edited by superbank, January 04 2013 - 02:04 PM.


#2 Kai_Kitamura

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Posted January 04 2013 - 01:00 PM

Quote

Hovering
Controled environment recorded commercial/demo =/= real battle test. Some things look cool but just won't work no matter how hard you try. Unless hover meant going around at a billion sanics you'd always just be a free kill.

Quote

Meteor Points

Seriously? Don't make up an imaginary currency to mask the real cost like Microsofts 360 space bucks. Respect us by putting the real money value.
That's silly and you should feel silly.
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#3 Aetrion

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Posted January 04 2013 - 01:00 PM

EMP is indeed a bad idea. I mean, you have to keep in mind that in MMORPGs where the TTK is ten times what it is in Hawken the crowd control is less severe.

#4 _Hex_

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Posted January 04 2013 - 01:01 PM

They stated computer gaming was superior to console gaming in an interview. I can agree with you on many of the points, but the meteor credits one I don't agree. So many games implement this wonky system it's not even that big of a deal. It is only in the first month of BETA and the matchmaking is FUBAR because they NEED DATA TO CREATE A DECENT MATCHMAKING system. I assume they rolled back many features to redesign them and re-implement them slowly.

TL;DR: You make very valid points in some areas while not outright flaming the Devs. Kudos to your patience. :3


     -Hex

View PostLeonhardt, on April 30 2013 - 04:00 AM, said:

alt+F4 fixes this. Reinstall and as soon as you see it quickly hit alt+F4. If the game crashes restart and try again until its fixed.

#5 iamJTS

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Posted January 04 2013 - 01:08 PM

I've said it before, but I like ending up in matches against far more experienced players. Watching a player and understanding how they crushed you is a great way to improve. I definitely would like to see higher levels of customization though, I agree with you here. But as you said already, it's open beta so I'm sure they're working on it :)

#6 PlanckZero

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Posted January 04 2013 - 01:18 PM

You could definitely blame any lack of customization on the F2P model, though not for the sake of dumbing it down but rather for monetizing it.

If you release only a few customizations at a time you can get people to buy far more of them in the long run.  You start off buying your favorite out of the original set, then when a new set comes out you want to stay trendy so you buy another one, and then with the next set and so on and so on.  In contrast if you offer all the customization options up front someone finds the one they like and doesn't buy any additional ones.

The same goes for coloring.  Sure it should be easy to simply provide monochrome patterns that you can apply any color to but it's far more profitable to sell people a red version, a blue version, a yellow version and a pink version of the same exact pattern.

#7 Incapacity

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Posted January 04 2013 - 01:22 PM

Damn, OP. Now you got me all sad since I opened the old gameplay video and heard all the amazing sounds we don't have. Rocket trails whistling in the wind, chassis noises..
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#8 Elephantom

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Posted January 04 2013 - 01:23 PM

View PostKai_Kitamura, on January 04 2013 - 01:00 PM, said:

Quote

Hovering
Controled environment recorded commercial/demo =/= real battle test. Some things look cool but just won't work no matter how hard you try. Unless hover meant going around at a billion sanics you'd always just be a free kill.

Quote

Meteor Points

Seriously? Don't make up an imaginary currency to mask the real cost like Microsofts 360 space bucks. Respect us by putting the real money value.
That's silly and you should feel silly.

Absolutely not. I really wish more companies would take this approach instead of their own form of currency. It's working very well for a lot of games. How is that silly at all or even more silly than using real money to buy fake money to spend?

#9 superbank

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Posted January 04 2013 - 01:28 PM

View PostKai_Kitamura, on January 04 2013 - 01:00 PM, said:

Quote

Hovering
Controled environment recorded commercial/demo =/= real battle test. Some things look cool but just won't work no matter how hard you try. Unless hover meant going around at a billion sanics you'd always just be a free kill.
Hovering with more speed and control in all directions gives more movement options. These can be used effectively in wide a range of situations. A wider range than the current hover. If they couldn't get it to work then that's unfortunate. Though going by what some posters have said that played previous builds it sounds like it was working just right...

Quote

That's silly and you should feel silly.

Give 1 reason why it should be converted from real money which is universally understood, to a made-up currency. That is branded with the name of the publisher I might add.

View PostAetrion, on January 04 2013 - 01:00 PM, said:

EMP is indeed a bad idea. I mean, you have to keep in mind that in MMORPGs where the TTK is ten times what it is in Hawken the crowd control is less severe.

What's TTK?

View Post_Hex_, on January 04 2013 - 01:01 PM, said:

They stated computer gaming was superior to console gaming in an interview. I can agree with you on many of the points, but the meteor credits one I don't agree. So many games implement this wonky system it's not even that big of a deal. It is only in the first month of BETA and the matchmaking is FUBAR because they NEED DATA TO CREATE A DECENT MATCHMAKING system. I assume they rolled back many features to redesign them and re-implement them slowly.

TL;DR: You make very valid points in some areas while not outright flaming the Devs. Kudos to your patience. :3


-Hex

You only need statistics from the previous round to determine 2 players on one team were the best by a wide margin... so maybe lets separate them in the next game. And just because other games have made up currencies doesn't make it ok. The entire purpose it to confuse the buyer. "I don't remember how much I have right now but I can afford this part. Buy!"

Patient is a good way to describe it. Hehe.

Edited by superbank, January 04 2013 - 01:28 PM.


#10 PlanckZero

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Posted January 04 2013 - 01:35 PM

View Postsuperbank, on January 04 2013 - 01:28 PM, said:

Give 1 reason why it should be converted from real money which is universally understood, to a made-up currency. That is branded with the name of the publisher I might add.

It's all about making money, that's how micro transactions work at their best.

Tell someone they're paying 5 bucks for something in a game and that's a cost they can relate to real world terms, tell them they're paying 500 glibbidyglorks and they're far removed from the external reference when they paid real cash for those credits in the first place.

Also using in game currency means you have to buy it in predetermined chunks and every time you're left with an odd number of credits after a purchase they know you'll end up buying more eventually to put those leftovers to use.

#11 Epistrophe

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Posted January 04 2013 - 01:51 PM

The meteor credit system is actually pretty reasonable considering the five dollar price point is the Exact cost of a new mech. None of that 100 extra points to spend on nothing bs.

#12 superbank

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Posted January 04 2013 - 01:52 PM

View Post_Hex_, on January 04 2013 - 01:01 PM, said:

They stated computer gaming was superior to console gaming in an interview.

I remember that. Re-reading my post, the way I phrased it makes it look like I said they admitted to a compromise but that was just my speculation. I'm gonna change it, my bad.

View PostiamJTS, on January 04 2013 - 01:08 PM, said:

I've said it before, but I like ending up in matches against far more experienced players. Watching a player and understanding how they crushed you is a great way to improve. I definitely would like to see higher levels of customization though, I agree with you here. But as you said already, it's open beta so I'm sure they're working on it :)

I like fighting the better players too. I got destroyed yesterday multiple times. Though it's bad when it seems like it's just me who's competent on my team. It's an absolute slaughter when there are 2-3 good players on the other side.

View PostPlanckZero, on January 04 2013 - 01:18 PM, said:

You could definitely blame any lack of customization on the F2P model, though not for the sake of dumbing it down but rather for monetizing it.

If you release only a few customizations at a time you can get people to buy far more of them in the long run.  You start off buying your favorite out of the original set, then when a new set comes out you want to stay trendy so you buy another one, and then with the next set and so on and so on.  In contrast if you offer all the customization options up front someone finds the one they like and doesn't buy any additional ones.

The same goes for coloring.  Sure it should be easy to simply provide monochrome patterns that you can apply any color to but it's far more profitable to sell people a red version, a blue version, a yellow version and a pink version of the same exact pattern.

I agree with you here. There's still a way to push customization while limiting their options I think. Having just the Fred from the beginning is one way to do that and it was probably pretty effective. A lot of people don't like it for some reason.

View PostPlanckZero, on January 04 2013 - 01:35 PM, said:

View Postsuperbank, on January 04 2013 - 01:28 PM, said:

Give 1 reason why it should be converted from real money which is universally understood, to a made-up currency. That is branded with the name of the publisher I might add.

It's all about making money, that's how micro transactions work at their best.

Tell someone they're paying 5 bucks for something in a game and that's a cost they can relate to real world terms, tell them they're paying 500 glibbidyglorks and they're far removed from the external reference when they paid real cash for those credits in the first place.

Also using in game currency means you have to buy it in predetermined chunks and every time you're left with an odd number of credits after a purchase they know you'll end up buying more eventually to put those leftovers to use.

Absolutely. I'm still gonna call them out for doing it though.

#13 Elephantom

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Posted January 04 2013 - 01:53 PM

View PostPlanckZero, on January 04 2013 - 01:35 PM, said:

View Postsuperbank, on January 04 2013 - 01:28 PM, said:

Give 1 reason why it should be converted from real money which is universally understood, to a made-up currency. That is branded with the name of the publisher I might add.

It's all about making money, that's how micro transactions work at their best.

Tell someone they're paying 5 bucks for something in a game and that's a cost they can relate to real world terms, tell them they're paying 500 glibbidyglorks and they're far removed from the external reference when they paid real cash for those credits in the first place.

Also using in game currency means you have to buy it in predetermined chunks and every time you're left with an odd number of credits after a purchase they know you'll end up buying more eventually to put those leftovers to use.

Valve raking in piles of cash doing this with TF2 and Dota2. They use real currency to price their ingame cosmetics and it's working just as well (if not better) than most F2P games with this same model.

Edited by Elephantom, January 04 2013 - 01:55 PM.


#14 fwip

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Posted January 04 2013 - 01:58 PM

View Postsuperbank, on January 04 2013 - 01:28 PM, said:

What's TTK?
Time-To-Kill - basically how long you can expect to be alive when fighting another player. Games like UT have a short time-to-kill, most MMOs have a long time-to-kill. A 7 second CC isn't as debilitating when it takes 20 seconds to kill you as when it takes 5 seconds.
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#15 superbank

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Posted January 04 2013 - 04:00 PM

View Postfwip, on January 04 2013 - 01:58 PM, said:

View Postsuperbank, on January 04 2013 - 01:28 PM, said:

What's TTK?
Time-To-Kill - basically how long you can expect to be alive when fighting another player. Games like UT have a short time-to-kill, most MMOs have a long time-to-kill. A 7 second CC isn't as debilitating when it takes 20 seconds to kill you as when it takes 5 seconds.

I see, thanks. Do some MMOs have a similar item to the EMP? And is it as easy to use?

#16 Elephantom

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Posted January 04 2013 - 04:02 PM

View Postsuperbank, on January 04 2013 - 04:00 PM, said:

View Postfwip, on January 04 2013 - 01:58 PM, said:

View Postsuperbank, on January 04 2013 - 01:28 PM, said:

What's TTK?
Time-To-Kill - basically how long you can expect to be alive when fighting another player. Games like UT have a short time-to-kill, most MMOs have a long time-to-kill. A 7 second CC isn't as debilitating when it takes 20 seconds to kill you as when it takes 5 seconds.

I see, thanks. Do some MMOs have a similar item to the EMP? And is it as easy to use?

EMP is just a form of CC (Crowd Control). CC is disabler that usually doesn't do much damage (if any), but puts the target at a disadvantage.

Stuns, silences, knock backs, and things that immobilize are the most common forms of CC.

Edited by Elephantom, January 04 2013 - 04:03 PM.


#17 KaszaWspraju

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Posted January 04 2013 - 04:12 PM

http://youtu.be/XFbTYybOHtM
Shaking crosshair on impact should (0.15) be available with the full set to: camera shake level - full.

For me it is a better option than almost full stop mech on hit impact we have now. Reduce this effect, plus shaking crosshair :rolleyes:. Heatbars on cokpit and no duplication of cockpit displays on HUD ! This i want, and no large mark: enemy sight.

Shame that things adding climate are removed rather than changed to options on / off in menu.

http://youtu.be/g-FJVvyq_VA
The hud is so much better in this clip, the green font so good, 1,46 so good - tags enemies and HP bar and tags friends much better !

As if to combine the best elements of both videos: :wub: Wow.

Edited by KaszaWspraju, January 04 2013 - 04:14 PM.

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#18 Warwhale

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Posted January 04 2013 - 04:34 PM

agree on the hovering movement

#19 Akrium

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Posted January 05 2013 - 01:53 AM

Matchmaking is broke, they are releasing a fix once it is set in place. This is known already.

Customization, in general hawken does not have much content yet across all boards, (maps, guns, items, skins, etc.). This is still beta and they are working towards releasing what they can as soon as they can. Though I really would like being able to adjust the looks all at the same time, so I can see what my mech looks like by the end without guessing and just spending money.

Hovering, I was told (*did not see myself) that they were not going to have super flying wars in this game. That it was not a design they were going to go for in the end. That doesn't mean the mechanic isn't in the game though at one point. This is beta, and have free reign to change things at will.

Larger maps, they discussed that this is in the works as well. To the same extent you are talking... probably not. But bigger than they currently are.

Emp, is already being reworked. They stated this as well.


The money thing could be a combination of 2 things:

1: detaches user from how much real world money they are spending, and are likely to spend more.
2: it makes it easier to program because you don't have to have the game figure out each currency (Euro, American Dollar, etc...) and you can display just 1 predetermined number. Makes it much more simple, the currency exchange rates are then done on the back end.

#20 Killer56755

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Posted January 05 2013 - 04:03 AM

Um does anyone know what to do if the game keeps closing me out when I try to enter a match and then when I try to enter a game again it says ERROR: player is already on server?




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