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A personal look back on Hawken (likes/dislikes)


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#1 Akrium

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Posted October 15 2014 - 07:18 AM

Now that it has passed over 2 years of me being apart of Hawken and watching it morph to what it is now, I felt like talking about some things I miss and some things I don't. I'll do a quick list below for those that simply want a tdlr and want to skip my most likely going to be long post, which seems to be all I am able to write when I do write a topic. Granted some context may be lost if you do skip the reading. As some of my opinions would seemed to have changed over the years if you are someone that remembers my posting back in the day.

Things I do not miss from Older Hawken:
  • Vertical Power Progression
  • Old super radar
  • Old emp mechanic
  • Unlimited use items
  • Old balancing
Things I do miss from Older Hawken:
  • Risk vs Reward
  • Positive AND Negative attributes on items
  • Less air control
  • Healing mechanics/No Tech
  • Longer TTK
I guess I will start with the things I do not miss.

Vertical Power Progression(VPP):
There have been many forms of this over the years and it was HIGHLY engrained into the game in the beginning. Back then, Pilots would level up to level 20 for max level. There was not a separation of mech level and pilot level yet. And as you leveled up you gained more in terms of small buffs to your mech directly from leveling and then indirectly from the skill tree that existed back then. Later the skill tree was highly nerfed into the ground after they realized a lvl 1 pilot could barely put up a fight vs even a crappy lvl 20 pilot. Thus came Ascension and the nerfed skill tree was turned sideways and nothing had really changed as the VPP was still there. Later the whole concept was ditched and each mech became much more unique because of it. So while it was rough to go through that, the end result is actually nice. Unique mechs that have differences on minor levels but could be played out differently depending on play style. Sadly the VPP still has yet to be removed from Hawken on a whole. It is in the best place it has ever been, but some things like item level requirements are still around sadly.

I also want to make it clear I was, at the time, a huge fan of Horizontal Power Progression. But that was more because I knew the developers wanted some sort of leveling scheme. As in their mind that helps hold people to playing the game through tedious means. Sadly, even though that isn't my style.. it is semi true so I was attempting to think within their parameters. Personally I prefer having everything be available from the start and everyone have the ability to be on equal grounds at all times. That just isn't a thing anymore really with the way games/players have changed over the years. I am a relic of the old in that way.

The Old Radar:
My god it was HUGE. Heck even back in closed beta you would extend it even farther and see nearly the whole map at all times. Thankfully they reeled it in quite substantially. Sadly at this point in the game, I think an overhaul to the even current radar is needed. They could increase the range while decreasing what is shown on it. That is, the only time enemies are shown is when they fire their weapons or if things like enemy turrets fire up. Thus this does a few things. It helps eliminate stalemates around corners by allowing people to maneuver without being seen while also allowing people to spread out more while still seeing where their team actually is. Thus a lot more mobility is an option for the game and one has less a feel of needing to be near each other.

Now this isn't saying I want to see teamwork go away, I just want to see it change from deathballs to coordinated strikes. This was FAR more prevalent in the old Hawken with the longer TTK. One team would be attempting to hold a choke point while the other would either force their way through it and/or send a small force around to flank and pincer the enemy team. It resulted in a lot more interesting game play over all. Granted they had time to do this because the TTK was a lot longer back then.

The Old EMP design:
Oh thank god it is what it is today. I cannot fully explain how horrible it was in the beginning. Granted I am still not a fan of a CC in a fps, but never the less it is apart of the game. And after much goading by the community it finally is in a good spot. But to give someone an idea, the old EMP had a radius the size of some smaller states. The visual queue was basically half the size of the actual EMP range. Later they fixed the difference in visual vs actual and it was still too easy to use and abuse. You could easily chain CC a person and wipe out a team quickly. Thankfully it is much harder to aim now and not as long of a CC either. Glad for this change.

Unlimited use items:
One of the worst concepts I've seen come about. It turned some items into things that would and could just be abused. Think of having unlimited powerful items and one shudders at the thought. At first it felt liberating because we had 1 use items and we had to seriously be wise about how we spent them. Then to have the ability to use the item repeatedly on a very minor cool down... oh my! Sadly it was far too short of a CD on item use. While the concept could have been better if they had 3-5 min CDs.. it wasn't something they wanted to do. So you could constantly spam them with no worries because they would be up again by the time another big fight broke out. It was an attempt to be more like LoL/Dota in terms of having something like flash being down, just not quite fleshed out properly at the time.

Old Balancing:
Poke was god and certain weapons in general could do stupid things. Such as the rev_gl causing people to be rooted in place on the ground, the hellfires being able to turn on a millimeter and hit someone that just dodged them, the vulcan ripping people apart in no time even back when the ttk was bigger, etc.

The game has had a TON of balancing done to it over the years and for the majority of it... they ended up in a good spot. Personally I'd like to see poke be more relevant in today's game but I don't see how they can do that when a mech can heal up to full in under 5 seconds.

__________________________
And now onto the things I do miss.

Risk vs Reward:
That is to say, this was semi part of balancing. While I like the fact the game has made sustain fire far better than it was in the beginning, I feel they went too far. With the combination of quick heals, lowered burst dmg and an increase in sustain being important.. poke dmg really just doesn't fit well into the current game. That is.. I miss higher burst dmg at the cost of missing meant I would be put in a seriously bad position for winning the fight. I miss the days that weapons had more variety in time between shots. The developers have seriously degraded the options and made things more universal in nature. This was the result of issues with being able to instantly kill someone through combinations of abilities. There was a multitude of things causing this issue.
  • Unlimited use items
  • A couple items causing too much dmg for being items
  • A couple abilities being too strong
  • The actual interesting option of burst vs sustain dmg
So what they did to fix it was to remove some of the burst options on weapons. Then they reduced the items damage and ability power. Then they reduced the number of times you can use an item and further nerfed the highs of possible dmg on weapons and items.

Which the main issue that caused all of this was the first 3 and not the last. Which is what they changed first. If they would have changed the items back to limited use, that alone would have put a serious crack down on the abuse of instant gibbing someone. If they would have also adjusted the items power down as well during this it would have nearly wiped out all options to instant gib even an A class at that time. Toss on a couple ability changes and it would have been gone completely.

Sadly the route they went, in my mind, wasn't the best choice. As things were far more interesting to me by having actually interesting choices between my style of play on the mech. Do I go for the high skill weapons or the lower skill weapons? Am I on point today or am I a bit off and will be more consistent with the less risk weapons. Interesting choices to me at least. They also would have to adjust poke some more as currently the game does not play well with it anymore. But that probably will get covered more when I hit my miss of the old TTK.

+ and - Attributes on items:
Back in the day if you chose to use an item, it also took something away from you. If you wanted more damage, you would also get more heat. If you wanted more fuel, you would lose armor. I cannot really remember the positive and negative options on the items anymore. It was so long ago that honestly it eludes me to remember them. But I LOVED the idea that my choices came with me having to balance my positive and negative issues. Right now the only thing one needs to consider now is how much limited space you have to use to gather what you want. While it is also interesting its own way. It simply isn't as interesting as saying, if you want Air Dodge it also takes up fuel consumption. Thus you expend fuel at a higher rate but get the ability to dodge as well. Thus now it isn't a straight up gain, it is a style of play you need to consider. Not to say I am a fan of air dodge, but it was an easy way to explain what I am getting at.

As it stands, there could be a lot more creativity in the items. As they had a lot more potential back in the day.

Less Air Control:
Which leads me right into how back in closed beta and pre Ascension that if you jumped into the air, you were simply an easy target. Now do I miss those days? Yes and No.. I do enjoy the higher speed while moving in the air, thus it takes actually some skill to shoot someone in the air. But I don't think things like Air Dodge and longer times in the air help the game in any fashion. Again because there are zero negatives to taking Air Dodge you gain not only dodge in the air, but you also remove the worries of splash damage. Thus you actually remove parts of the game that were supposed to mean something. That is, some mechs were designed with the idea of Area of Denail, but which now are not nearly as useful. Also the longer time allowed to be in the air has cause issues with the way the maps were actually made in the beginning. Thus causing issues with movement across the maps and causing flow problems.

Now I am not saying it should completely go away. But I think it would have been better to introduce a mech that could do this rather than implement it so any mech could do this. Thus it brings a style of play option rather than a total meta change that destroys a lot of the foundation the game was built around. I would have loved to see a mech do this instead and it could have been a really neat option to have as a mech choice.

Healing Mechanics/No Tech:
Back in closed beta the only way to heal yourself was either through a long animation of self repair or through a healing orb you dropped on the ground. This really made you make choices on when you could and could not heal. Since you couldn't heal to full in 5 seconds, it took you 3 seconds to roughly get into the position to even start healing slowly. While I am SUPER happy about the fact that the self heal currently heals by % over a rough Armor per Sec, as that makes it fair to C class mechs, it is FAR to quick of a heal to do currently. You can easily run away and heal to full in no time flat now. Thus it hurts the use of many types of ways to break groups. Sadly the lower ttk has caused a LOT of these issues with the healing mechanics and I wasn't sure if I should just put this in with it or not.

What I can say is that while orbs did heal too much, the fact that they made you mostly immobile if you wanted the heal from them was actually a nice balance to the whole thing. Thus if someone dropped it in a fight, you had the choice to run or the choice to try and burst through it. You had choices either way and choices are what makes things interesting. Now healing orbs are really not nearly as useful as they once were to the point that even if you drop one while in a fight you still die nearly as fast. They are not even balanced in terms of being worth while compared to the other items we have to choose from at this point.

On the tech, I have to say after having it around as long as it has been... it hasn't helped the game because when they changed the meta to have a healer they never really supported a tank class. That is, a class that does less over all damage but can soak more damage. Instead the tech has failed because the devs started going down the route of a tank/healer/dps option and have since changed their minds. Thus leaving the tech as a stand out that doesn't make sense anymore. At first I had the impression of Hawken being similar to a MOBA but in a 1st person view and to be more flowing and just about the engagements and not silly mob management. Thus I was expecting C classes to get more buffed health or resistance options while losing some of their damage output and things to move down that line. Instead we have everyone doing roughly the same dmg, dying roughly in the same time and the only real thing being the difference is the speed at which they move. I find this to be lacking.

I think at this point the tech would be in a better place if it lost the ability to heal teammates, at least directly. I wouldn't mind seeing it keep its vampiric nature to keep it's unique play style. Thus drop the secondary heal option and turn the ability into giving all your teammates in X area the ability to life steal some health back based on the dmg they do as well and a small buff to your life steal during its use. Thus it increases your own self healing while also indirectly healing teammates that are being active in the fight, thus being a "support" style play. Obviously a little rework on the health/speed and such would need tweaked as well as the mech would be more aggressive in nature.

Longer TTK:
This is probably the thing I miss the MOST out of all the changes to the game to date. At first I was highly looking forward to the idea of a faster paced game. Then I came to understand it actually subtracted some of the difference in play between a good player and a bad player and that is all it really did. That and it HIGHLY punished stupidity in play and thus changed the general mindset of players to be far less aggressive in nature because it was far more punishing if you were not good. Thus this has lead to more camping, deathballs, less interesting play over all. The concept, in my mind, was that the devs wanted people to group up as much as possible while playing because it would be more interesting to see and easier to follow. Similar to games as LoL/Dota where in the beginning they have small skirmishes and by the end they have nothing but team fights with everyone together. Sadly FPS games don't operate in the same way as MOBA games do and it really doesn't work the same since it is done in a 3D environment and MOBAs work in 2D.

Ironically I believe the MASS majority of players at the time were calling for LONGER TTKs when they decided to go drastically in the opposite direction. I am not clear as to why that direction was taken, but my obvious guess would be that some market group said that gamers today want games like CoD where it is about reflexes and quick shots rather than interesting fights.

Sadly I miss those interesting fights. Where if you didn't kill the guy fast enough you were going to be fighting a 2v1 or worse because his team was going to get to him or he was going to get back to them. The best way I could describe the fights back then were they were dances. Elegant and beautiful fighting where each person was trying to out maneuver and out think his enemy while threading needles of shots and angles while someone would have an edge one second and lose it the next because of an outplay. It was intoxicating to me back then, and is absolutely why I fell in love with the game. Dancing between 3 enemies while killing them all with a thread of health left and controlling your heat issues... I cannot fully describe the joy it gave.

Summary:
While the current game isn't as enjoyable as it used to be for me, the community is still an amazing community. And I am glad to have stuck around while others have not. I just hope that at some point things get back on track for the game. And thank you for reading it all if you actually managed to do it =)

#2 shosca

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Posted October 15 2014 - 07:25 AM

You forgot to comment on the weapon raise delay

#3 Akrium

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Posted October 15 2014 - 07:28 AM

View Postshosca, on October 15 2014 - 07:25 AM, said:

You forgot to comment on the weapon raise delay

Actually that doesn't bother me as I believe you are probably talking about the exploit that took them a year to fix. The game functioned fine before people realized that it was even a thing and is only a semi issue now because of TTK issues and the corner dancing due to Radar issues as well.

#4 JukeBarzel

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Posted October 15 2014 - 08:24 AM

And the Eliminate-the-Mech winner:  Tech, with Incin 1st runner up. Anyhow:
Just viewing the Pax videos on this website of the CA & CB play is saddening. That game is what all those gaming community rave reviews and awards were for.

Not this one we have now.

Edited by JukeBarzel, October 15 2014 - 08:32 AM.

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#5 Akrium

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Posted October 15 2014 - 08:38 AM

Well I didn't say totally do away with the tech, but he has too much direct play in my mind with no core mechanics backing it up. He is a stand alone mech that will forever make it hard for them to add more mechs that are support that are actually support. And this game is about adding more content, specially in the form of new mechs.

And I'm sorry, but the incin is too good at dmg to be called a support. Especially since it's ability also removes heat from the enemy as well. Who in their right mind designs a war tool to help the enemy? Conceptually it makes no sense. Though from a technical aspect it makes FAR greater sense. As it is much easier to not worry about friendly checks during all of it than to just do it if someone is within the AoE.

#6 TwentyFirstPilot

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Posted October 15 2014 - 08:44 AM

This was interesting to read, especially since I didn't start to play until last May.

Aspiring Professional Yolodriver


View PostAmidatelion, on May 24 2014 - 01:36 AM, said:

Yeah, but dude, we are at 1750. As much as we would like to be Professional Yolodrivers like you [Meraple] and Lightangel112, we're not there yet. It's something to aspire to, sure, but there's a lot of ground to cover.

View Postcomic_sans, on October 31 2014 - 05:50 PM, said:

SS, you wanna fight me?  I'm druuuuuunk????? You could maybe win?!!

#7 CapAllan

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Posted October 15 2014 - 09:09 AM

View PostTwentyFirstPilot, on October 15 2014 - 08:44 AM, said:

This was interesting to read, especially since I didn't start to play until last May.

OOhh! I started to play from this May (the 2014 one!).
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#8 TwentyFirstPilot

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Posted October 15 2014 - 09:18 AM

View PostCapAllan, on October 15 2014 - 09:09 AM, said:

View PostTwentyFirstPilot, on October 15 2014 - 08:44 AM, said:

This was interesting to read, especially since I didn't start to play until last May.

OOhh! I started to play from this May (the 2014 one!).

I joined the forum three days after you did.

INTERNET BROS FOREVER!

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View PostAmidatelion, on May 24 2014 - 01:36 AM, said:

Yeah, but dude, we are at 1750. As much as we would like to be Professional Yolodrivers like you [Meraple] and Lightangel112, we're not there yet. It's something to aspire to, sure, but there's a lot of ground to cover.

View Postcomic_sans, on October 31 2014 - 05:50 PM, said:

SS, you wanna fight me?  I'm druuuuuunk????? You could maybe win?!!

#9 Akrium

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Posted October 15 2014 - 09:25 AM

Haha I did this post partly for this reason. To give the new players an idea of where Hawken has also come from. And potentially why some of the older players are not nearly around as much today.

A lot of that came about due to one patch in question, called Ascension. It was a total overhaul of the game and the core mechanics to the game. It wasn't so well received and thus had a lot of player base call it their last straw.

Hawken coming to steam did bring back some people, but it just didn't stick =\

#10 Sylhiri

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Posted October 15 2014 - 09:29 AM

+ and - on the internals/items was ok but I actually miss how it was sectioned:

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Even then it was prone to cookie cutter builds. Also I do miss Scapes (?) trying to defend a 7 second long EMP with a crator sized AoE.

Edited by Sylhiri, October 15 2014 - 09:30 AM.

[13:14] <nonsiccus_work> uh oh

there's gravy in my keyboard

----------------------------------------------------------------------

[11:18] <+shosca> if you wanna play ar, go play zerker
[11:18] <Hyginos> and if you want to play zerker, go smc
[11:19] <someone> if you want to play sustain, please go and die in hell


#11 StubbornPuppet

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Posted October 15 2014 - 10:24 AM

Mostly, I miss the atmosphere of the old graphics and the slower pace (mech movement speed and time to kill - which I call time to die).  I liked the mood of that and felt that playing well was more about carefully planned and executed moves and strategy than about good reflexes and aim precision (two things which are not my strong points :P)

#12 Akrium

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Posted October 15 2014 - 10:48 AM

The old Hud needed to go for resource reasons. The game is much more optimized because it went away.

I enjoy the speed currently, though some things with the increase in speed on kills and dmg taken.. not a fan of it. But it is there none the less.

#13 DerMax

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Posted October 15 2014 - 12:08 PM

While I agree with your sentiment and argument, I disagree with the first sentence in your summary. When I joined the community in June 2013, I was mesmerized with how fantastic the community was back then. It was exactly for that reason that I decided to start playing the game.

Since then, the community has transformed into god knows what. Save for a couple of notable examples, long, enthusiastic and well thought-out posts have become a thing of the past. Many veterans have moved on and found other games to play and communities to join.

#14 ReachH

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Posted October 15 2014 - 12:21 PM

Hey its alphas 2 year birthday soon. And then CB's.

View Post[HWK]HUGHES, on October 23 2013 - 06:01 PM, said:

Development happens.


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#15 Akrium

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Posted October 15 2014 - 12:51 PM

View PostDerMax, on October 15 2014 - 12:08 PM, said:

While I agree with your sentiment and argument, I disagree with the first sentence in your summary. When I joined the community in June 2013, I was mesmerized with how fantastic the community was back then. It was exactly for that reason that I decided to start playing the game.

Since then, the community has transformed into god knows what. Save for a couple of notable examples, long, enthusiastic and well thought-out posts have become a thing of the past. Many veterans have moved on and found other games to play and communities to join.

Well 2 things happened to remove those big "idea" threads.

1) open beta
2) current stage in development that Hawken is at

I have to say, the community was crazy amazing during closed beta. I never got to experience alpha sadly, but I can only imagine it was just as good then. People were very open to discuss things with less trolling. At worst it was heated arguments rather than trolling. Since going to open beta... well... it changed the environment greatly. It may not be the same, but it is still better than most communities out there. There just happens to be a very few vocal turds that are about as bad as it gets right now. Didn't help that also at the same time we were getting less and less feedback from the devs as time progressed. The devs were much tighter with the alpha and CB guys than post Open beta. Which, lets face it, is understandable. As the forums were not near as friendly once open beta hit. Not all the devs had/have thick skin and can handle people the same.

Also since Hawken was in theory reaching it's deadline date, a lot of us assumed that offering ideas at this point was pointless because the game was at the point that major changes are not going to happen, no matter how good they are. So you saw a lot of us drastically decrease our posting in terms of idea threads.

#16 Sylhiri

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Posted October 15 2014 - 01:14 PM

View PostAkrium, on October 15 2014 - 12:51 PM, said:

Also since Hawken was in theory reaching it's deadline date, a lot of us assumed that offering ideas at this point was pointless because the game was at the point that major changes are not going to happen, no matter how good they are.

I pretty much gave up all hope in posting ideas after HAB. I would guess that if I was never in HAB I would be more positive then I am now. In Alpha, CB and the beginning of OB you could see the progression of the game and I believe it was getting better. It was a clear path so the future wasn't suddenly unexpected, CB/OB wasn't all good, there were clearly issues that needed to be addressed but it was all fixable.

[13:14] <nonsiccus_work> uh oh

there's gravy in my keyboard

----------------------------------------------------------------------

[11:18] <+shosca> if you wanna play ar, go play zerker
[11:18] <Hyginos> and if you want to play zerker, go smc
[11:19] <someone> if you want to play sustain, please go and die in hell


#17 CaliberMengsk

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Posted October 15 2014 - 02:22 PM

For those new people, Here is an old siege match from before the battleships had to do damage over time and just rammed the opponent's bases. This from the first round of closed beta if I recall correctly. This is the version of Bazaar (at the time Sahara) where the was a cliff in the middle rather then a hill also. It was a long match (over an hour long), and way before anyone knew the game. Notable by saying "mech with a flak" instead of the mech type. I think this was also before the ships got stronger from round to round, so they could be continuously shot down from base if not pressured. Ships also just bypassed each other rather then taking the opposing side's down before continuing.

http://www.twitch.tv...engsk/c/1717604

Brings back memories. T_T I miss those days. I still liked siege more that way then currently, though I think they should drop bombs on the base rather then crashing into them. XD

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#18 Akrium

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Posted October 15 2014 - 02:36 PM

Don't forget to add that the siege ships also shot at players at that time as well. And did some serious damage to those not paying attention... oh how things have progressed =D

#19 Odinous

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Posted October 15 2014 - 03:14 PM

I just logged to say,Akrium,thanks for such a productive thread(I think I used the correct word),I mean in those months passed by,few threads like this happens this days,not just talk without reasoning.
I've been here since January 2013(almost 2 years right?),means I saw enough beta content I believe to say that I agree with what u said,i like the new speed,but hell I miss the old ttk,at least just a bit higher maybe?

Edited by Odinous, October 15 2014 - 03:17 PM.


#20 Sylhiri

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Posted October 15 2014 - 04:25 PM

New speed with old health.

Also get rid of the technician.

[13:14] <nonsiccus_work> uh oh

there's gravy in my keyboard

----------------------------------------------------------------------

[11:18] <+shosca> if you wanna play ar, go play zerker
[11:18] <Hyginos> and if you want to play zerker, go smc
[11:19] <someone> if you want to play sustain, please go and die in hell





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