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Why i think Hawken's atrocious leveling and upgrade system might kill the game


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#1 Hipnox

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Posted November 13 2012 - 02:25 PM

I'm going to ahead and get it off my chest. (warning: Long rant ahead)

Hawken's leveling and upgrade progression system is  one of the worst i've seen in any game

I'm not trying to be sarcastic, i'm not venting heat. I've played other F2P games. I have nothing against them as a form of business strategy.

But i truly believe hawken's progression is so poorly implemented that it drags the entire game down with it. I've stuck with it through CB1 and CB2 (and i can't talk about the fightclub) and it is killing the game for me.

But let me justify my ranting:

Hawken, like most online games, specially F2P, are based around progression. You need to keep people coming back over and over to populate your servers and buy stuff, and what better way to do so but to have locked content that is unlocked via gameplay achievements, currency and time. It's a core principle of online games and it works.

In hawken, progression comes in the form of mech level, internal components, usable items, weapons and mechs.


However, Hawken's progression system has some big problems
  • Mech Customization is boring and uninspired:
Mech customization comes through stacking several tiny, barely noticeable percentage bonuses to your weapon attributes. The tech tree and the internals pretty much do the same thing. Nothing cool or interesting can be done to your mech. I don't think there is as single internal that tweaks something that can't be adjusted via the tech tree.

It feels like leveling up in lamer version of Diablo II, where you don't get to pick a magic skill o ability, just some attribute points to scatter around your character page.


There's no speciallization, no tradeoff. There really isn't a reason NOT to buy an internal, other than monetary restrictions.
  • Weapon and ability levels are totally redundant and unnecessary:
Why does your mech's weapons and abilities get better as you level up? don't we already have a tech tree and several internal components dedicated to that task? Doesn't the fact that a leveled up mech already has a ton of tech points and probably internals render weapon levels superfluous?

If i wanted to tweak my weapons, i would have done so in the tech tree, or bought an internal. It's funny because you can't even choose which weapon levels up, so in case you are fond of the Slug rifle, when your sharp levels up the SA Hawkins, you gained NOTHING useful on that level.

All weapon levels really do is further increase the gap between low level mechs and high level mechs, which brings me to...
  • High level mechs have too many advantages over low level ones:
Despite what i said earlier, those tiny percentages do start to add up. Combining tech tree points, weapon levels, ability levels and internals, and you got a big advantage over a low level mech.

This creates the (for a lack of a better word) 'unfair' scenario where a newly bought Brawler facing a High level Brawler knows he's going to have a hard time and that to all intent's and purposes, his opponent is strictly better in every conceivable way (bar skills) just because he has bought his mech weeks ago.

And keep in mind, even with all the dashing, high mobility and twich movement's those mech's are capable of, Hawken usually revolve around DPS vs Armor. You can't "head shot" a high level mech with a crappy low level weapon and win like in most other leveling games like the above mentioned. And when the DPS fight comes, you WILL lose (unless your skill is way better than your opponent).

This will raise the "Pay2Win" alarm for many, as grinding levels and currency while getting blasted away by fully stocked and leveled 'Meteor Players' will get on a lot of peoples nervs.

As far as i can tell, it's currently not possible to know a player's level. I think you should be able to.
  • You can't buy weapons, you have to buy an entire mech
As if i even have to tell you why this feels so wrong.
  • HP awarded for playing, not for actual performance. Encourages idling, griefing and doesn't encourage being credit to team.
Currently, about 70% of HP comes form simply staying in the server until the timers run out. I can run around in circles on my spawn point and make only a bit less than the player that topped the score.

EDIT: i don't have the numbers for EXP, just HP

lame...
  • No renting system
No renting system results in obscenely high item and mechs costs. Grinding all the way up to try a new mech only to realize you don't like it is enough to make one quit the game and never look back.

Also, no renting turns the game into a boring grind because. The longer it takes the player to earn the currency to buy game changing items and mechs, the less variety in the game, making the game boring and stale.

Not to mention fresh mechs are butt naked, which leads me to ...
  • Hawken progression design discourages buying new mechs without boosters
Think about it. Every time you buy a new mech you get something that:
  • Has lvl 0 on all weapons

  • Has 0 tech points

  • Has no internals

  • Has only the default item
You have to start from scratch.

Items are not interchangeable between mechs, tech points and weapon levels are property of each specific mech.

You are forced to grind your way into those 9200 HP for the naked mech, 1550 HP x3 for the internals and probably 1550 HP x1 or x2 for components.

That's 16950 HP points for a LVL 0 mech with internals. And you are still behind in Tech points and weapon levels, which you can't buy.

[BTW, in case you are wondering, at 80 HP per average full DeathMatch round, that 211 full deathmatches, clocking at about 53 hours of non-stop gameplay, just for 1 lvl 0 mech with internals and items]

Currently the game is all fun and games because we where given a ton of MP and HP to play with. But when the game goes live, it will get boring and stale very VERY fast.


That's how i see the game after playing hours and hours of Beta. I feel the game is starting o get repetitive and boring and it's in no small part due to it's progression system.


It's too late to see any major changes and as such it probably wont hold my attention once it goes live.


But that's just me..

Edited by Hipnox, November 13 2012 - 04:45 PM.


#2 The_Silencer

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Posted November 13 2012 - 02:30 PM

Reading...

Ok. What scares me a little are new pilot or noobies playing DM as their first option to play the game. Hey.. I've not said anything..

Edited by The_Silencer, November 13 2012 - 02:38 PM.

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#3 D3thpool

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Posted November 13 2012 - 02:30 PM

cant really argue with anything said here.


except ill hope that changes to prevent mentioned points will be done
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#4 Conquistador

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Posted November 13 2012 - 02:35 PM

All I can say is that I'm surprised no one's made a snide comment about him mentioning pay 2 win.

I agree with the statements above, mainly. I dread the day open beta goes live and I have to go AWOL for two weeks. The terror of bumbling around with a lvl 0 Mech against lvl 20s strikes all manner of fear in my heart.
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#5 Necro

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Posted November 13 2012 - 02:43 PM

Agree with the points listed here, I hope they have some changes in the works for progression or else i'll play this game for a week and then be bored because i have a lvl 20 mech and wont want to do it again, especially if i don't even know if i will like the mech.

#6 Subdivision

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Posted November 13 2012 - 02:58 PM

Well all these comments seem applicable and well thought out. Although, I get the sense the current status quo if you will, will dramatically change for open beta. To me, I get the sense we are limited to how much we can feasibly get our hands on and try out to make sure it gets played through a lot to get good feedback for the dev's. As an alpha participant, the beta has much more focus and so I can see things getting shifted again when open beta comes around. Personally, I'm not too worried about these kinds of matters until open beta actually launches and we find out how the system will work then. I also see the need to point out these issues tho to the dev's to make sure they deal with them.

One other thing I would like to add is that I think with greater player pool and more people correctly using matchmaking, games should balance out more. If you have more people playing, it makes sense to me that more people would be at each level of skill and so (provided players skill is accurately measured in game) people should get pooled with people of a similar level leading to less wonky games. If I have to work on getting to my level at open beta again, so be it. I see no other way to do it.

I understand I may be more patience than some others so I can understand people's agitation/frustration with such matters. I've seen these numbers and issues raised many times so I am fairly certain the dev's are aware of the communities concern. I'm going to keep waiting on what happens next.

Edited by Subdivision, November 13 2012 - 03:00 PM.

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#7 TheChaffeemancer

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Posted November 13 2012 - 03:09 PM

The point of the game isn't customizing internals or optimizations. Optimizations are just that, optimizing the mech for what you want it to do, not radically change how it operates. Games like Mechwarrior are what you want if you want to have radically new machines. But really, it's strange that you complain about how those are uninspired and have minimal impact then say that it makes them overpowering vs. players without them. Take your pick, are they really strong or insignificant?

The game does have a trial feature, Kiwi got a trial run of the infiltrator in CBE1 and a trial for the rocketeer in CBE2. The feature could certainly use some work, if Kiwi had tried the berserker, he would have never bought it.

Quote

  • You can't buy weapons, you have to buy an entire mech
As if i even have to tell you why this feels so wrong.

Please do. Though you actually can buy weapons, it's just that for some dumb reason you have to reach level 20 first.

Quote

  • EXP and HP awarded for playing, not for actual performance. Encourages idling, griefing and doesn't encourage being credit to team.
Hawken points, you are correct, but XP? Kiwi doesn't see how you reach that conclusion, he usually ends up with 2x as much XP as the gits who are bad at the game. If what you said is true, Kiwi would only have 30% more.

Edited by TheChaffeemancer, November 13 2012 - 03:09 PM.

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#8 MK501

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Posted November 13 2012 - 03:33 PM

While I do agree with some of the OP points, I'd like to to see a game where everyone's the same. I remember playing the original Section 8 where everyone - no matter what level - had the same weapons/abilities available : brilliant ! So I can find myself in these minor - sometimes unnoticeable - upgrades, it keeps the pack of players together, subscriber or not.
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#9 Scapes

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Posted November 13 2012 - 03:43 PM

Thanks for the detailed feedback. Constructive criticism is always welcome.
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#10 Hipnox

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Posted November 13 2012 - 05:20 PM

 [MTR]Scapes, on November 13 2012 - 03:43 PM, said:

Thanks for the detailed feedback. Constructive criticism is always welcome.

Good to know, i really want to see this game pull through



 TheChaffeemancer, on November 13 2012 - 03:09 PM, said:

The point of the game isn't customizing internals or optimizations. Optimizations are just that, optimizing the mech for what you want it to do, not radically change how it operates. Games like Mechwarrior are what you want if you want to have radically new machines. But really, it's strange that you complain about how those are uninspired and have minimal impact then say that it makes them overpowering vs. players without them. Take your pick, are they really strong or insignificant?

Both. They are individually insignificant and barely noticeable, but once they are stacked, they become a measurable advantage.

The problem is that they are just flat stat boosts. Your mech is better, just because it is.

There is no tradeoff, no real choice. You lose nothing from buying an internal, except HP. A stocked mech is better than a non-stocked mech. Period.

It would have been way more interesting to have internals (and Tech tree options) that had both a bonus and a penalty.

Do you want 20% more firepower? You got it, but at the expense of 30% more heat.

You want more Air control? Ok, but you consume twice as much fuel.

See? now this optimizations are a lot more interesting and have a bigger, noticeable effects. You can't really say one mech is better than the other, when internals and tech trees offer both advantages and disadvantages.

This level of customizations makes your mech much more personal, where the effects of your decisions over it are bigger.



Quote

Quote

  • You can't buy weapons, you have to buy an entire mech
As if i even have to tell you why this feels so wrong.
Please do. Though you actually can buy weapons, it's just that for some dumb reason you have to reach level 20 first.


Let's say i have a lvl 20 Brawler, with tech tree, internals and items.

If i wanted it to look like a Rocketeer, all i would have to do is to buy the body parts.

If i wanted it to have the weapons of a Rocketeer, i would have to:
  • Buy the rocketeer
  • Buy all the internals
  • Buy all the items
  • Grind my way up to lvl 20 again
  • Respec my Tech tree

Do you see a problem here?

#11 Frenotx

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Posted November 13 2012 - 06:01 PM

Yeah, the whole "unlocking weapons at level 20" (or any level, for that matter) is really lame. I dislike the idea of having to play many games with weapons that I dislike, before I can start actually having fun. Bad form.
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#12 Pursang

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Posted November 13 2012 - 07:10 PM

This thread makes me wonder exactly how many games the OP has played to come to the conclusion that Hawken has the worst progression system he's ever come across.

It's not perfect by any means, but there are far worse.
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#13 Gestankfaust

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Posted November 13 2012 - 07:15 PM

I dunno....I just have fun running and gunning. I may be the only one who doesn't even notice or care so much about the rest. Added bonus? Sure....otherwise just shut up and shoot.

:P

#14 RudaForce

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Posted November 13 2012 - 07:51 PM

 Frenotx, on November 13 2012 - 06:01 PM, said:

Yeah, the whole "unlocking weapons at level 20" (or any level, for that matter) is really lame. I dislike the idea of having to play many games with weapons that I dislike, before I can start actually having fun. Bad form.
Normally, I would have agreed with you here, but with the (fortunately) few Point-D Vulcans running around I'm more than glad that you unlock weapons at level 20.

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#15 Flirx

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Posted November 13 2012 - 08:56 PM

I never made it to 20 i tryed all the mechs and hate the lack of no weapons change. I would love to see more weapons choises.
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#16 DER3Z

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Posted November 14 2012 - 01:00 AM

I deff think your going to see more weapon choices, i really dont think their going to make you wait till lvl 20 to change weapons in open beta. All i'm going to say is should of played alpha 2.


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#17 Saunders

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Posted November 14 2012 - 03:26 AM

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Hey there Hipnox (and all):

First off, this is awesome.  It's posts like this that only serve to tell us that what we feel in our gut is right.


TLDR Version:
We completely agree.  Shortly after open beta you'll see a huge shift toward higher level mechs having more options instead of getting stronger.  Our goal is to reach TF2 or CoD-level of choice, where everything you do has a benefit and a drawback, and players who are higher level have more options, not more raw strength.  During our next closed beta and during open beta you'll see a LOT of these issues addressed, but we won't be where we want to be until shortly after open beta (which is partly why it's called a beta).  Luckily, if you really hate it in the meantime, Hawken is free and you can ALWAYS come back at zero risk to you  :D


Long Version:
Player progression is an extremely important topic for us and a huge focus of ours on the game design side over the last few months.  We agree with you 100% and are actively working around the clock to try and get you guys something 1000x more awesome as soon as possible.  For reference, as I begin to write this post it's 2AM, and I usually arrive at work at 8AM - if that gives you any indication of how important I think this is; this is literally something I think about almost 24/7.  The core of what makes Hawken awesome is there - the game is fun!  But it's the meta systems and the general new user experience which is severely lacking.  And that's unacceptable.

The short answer is we have a plan that we are rolling out step by step that I think you'll be happy with.  You'll see a WHOLE BUNCH of changes for our next closed beta.  A lot of the new features you'll see have been completed for a while now, and a lot of them are very new (as in, will be implemented sometime this week - super duper late to add things to a build, but that's how important we feel it is), and there are even more that you won't see until open beta or shortly after.

There are a lot of legacy reasons why the progression system feels so disjointed (many of the systems were implemented prior to the game having a leveling system at all).  It wasn't designed to feel broken, believe me.  But we DO have a design to fix it  :D


I'll give more details in a bit, but I'm going to respond to each of your comments individually.
1.    Attributes & Internal Upgrades are Too Small
2.    Weapon Levels Are Redundant
3.    High Level Mechs are Too Strong

The above comments can be answered together to some degree.  The difficulty is #1 is in direct conflict with #3 - under the current system if we reduce the strengths of the high level mechs, then #1 is a problem (upgrades are too small).  If we make #1 big, then #3 is a problem.

And #2 (weapon levels being redundant with optimizations & internals) is right on the mark.

Internals make you stronger.  Optimizations make you stronger.  Weapon levels make you stronger.  In all the same ways.

SOLUTION (shortly after open beta):

Expect to see a complete rework of the way these systems work.  Our general goal is:
  • Internals are for tweaking risk / rewards.  Do you want to do more damage?  Fine, but you'll generate a whole lot more heat.  Do you want more FUEL?  Fine, but you'll have to do so at the cost of armor.  We don't want these to be crazy good, or else new players will just get decimated (you probably won't see +60% damage but -80% armor, for example, although that'd be fun to try.  Glass Chassis.).  TF2-style balance is our goal for these, and we have some great solutions and interesting tradeoffs.
  • Optimizations are for offering more OPTIONS instead of pure stat increases (tho there may be a few things, such as increased EU capacity).  Would you like the ability to about-face in the air?  How about decrease the cooldown of your abilities?  Neither of those actively make you stronger unless you use them in the right situations.  Specifically, in a 1 on 1 fight there's no clear winner between someone who has those abilities and doesn't.  That's our goal for optimizations.
  • Weapon Levels are for Weapon Sidegrades.  This is where weapon specialization and interesting choice really comes into play.  Say you get to level 2 with your hellfire - now you unlock the ability to keep the hellfire the way it is, or to increase the speed of the missiles at the cost of the ability for them to seek.  Another example is something simple like increasing the zoom on the Sabot, which is a pretty clear tradeoff between mid and long-range support.
You won’t see all of the above for the next closed beta but you’ll see some of it.  In the short-term we’ll be keeping the Internals numbers pretty small so we can keep testing it, but expect these to gradually get stronger as we roll out the changes to the optimizations and weapons systems.

4) It’s Impossible to tell a Player’s Level
Answer: You’ll see this fixed in the next closed beta and HUGELY better version of it in the open beta.  Every time you get killed you’ll know what level they are and what mech they are, as well as when you look at the scoreboard.  We also have a system for identifying the “arsenal” of other players, but we’ll detail that more closer to open beta.

5) You can’t buy weapons
Answer: Yes, and I don’t think you should be able to buy weapons.  Some mechs just shouldn’t have some weapons if we want the game to feel balanced (imagine if you could have the Infiltrator with the flak cannon and the grenade launcher - instadeath).  An easier solution would be to make it much easier to get net mechs, so you can pick from a wide variety of different feeling mechs at any time, wouldn’t you say?

Also, our goal is to make each mech feel unique.  That’s for another post, but expect to see more strongly defined roles for new mechs that we release in the future, as well as updates to existing ones.

6) HP rewarded for playing, not for performance
Answer:  You’ll see some systems in open beta (such as daily achievements) that will help you gain HP for epic skillz.  Ultimately, I think it’s more important for everyone to be able to get every mech if they really want to, even if they suck.  Sure, they’ll have to work harder at it, but if someone wants to make Hawken a daily part of their lives, then I will PERSONALLY give them mechs.  We have some good solutions for this which we’ll roll out in the future that I think will make everyone happy (i.e. rewards for support roles, etc).

7) No renting system
Answer:  This was actually an oversight during the last closed beta and totally our bad.  We already have this system in place, and you’ll be able to try it out during the next closed beta.  In the future we’ll offer additional options for renting & trying out new stuff as well.

8) Progression discourages playing without boosters
Answer:  I personally find boosters a huge problem for balance.  Either you balance your progression for the boosed player and everyone else goes slow, or you make everyone go fast and the boosted player megafast.  We’ll have some systems during open beta which should help ease the difference between boosted and non-boosted accounts.

Also, as I mentioned before, I’d like players to be able to get all the mechs quicker than they do, and there are a number of ways we can solve this.  Expect to see changes on the above for open beta.

9)  It’s too late to see major changes
Answer:  Actually no, luckily it’s not!  We’re a small, independent developer, and although that means it’s a lot harder work for us, it also means that we can do what we want when we want without having to ask anybody.  It’s awesome!

Well, we do ask people, and that’s you, our fans.  Without you guys we wouldn’t be here, so thank you so much for posts like this.  You write this stuff because you care, and we care too!  We want to make the best mech game ever conceived by the big brains of man, and you’re actively helping us.  So yes, KEEP RANTING PLEASE and expect us to RANT BACK.  :D

<3 Saunders


p.s. Do you think the above is a good shift for player progression?
David Saunders | Game Designer on HAWKEN @ Adhesive Games

#18 Spawny

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Posted November 14 2012 - 03:41 AM

Awesome changes!

I hope you guys add in more stuff to keep players interesting:

- Ingame clansystems
- Group mathmaking
- Let players create games and put passwords
- Dedicated clanmatch servers
- Etc...
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#19 3Jane

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Posted November 14 2012 - 03:43 AM

All of that sounds good. Can't comment until its implemented though!

#20 defekt

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Posted November 14 2012 - 04:07 AM

 [ADH]Saunders, on November 14 2012 - 03:26 AM, said:

Say you get to level 2 with your hellfire - now you unlock the ability to keep the hellfire the way it is, or to increase the speed of the missiles at the cost of the ability for them to seek.
/

 defekt, on October 30 2012 - 05:04 AM, said:

Weapon: Hellfire
Level 0: Factory Standard.  Hellfire weapon uses default factory configuration.
Level 1: Fast Lock.  Hellfire weapon locks on 0.5 seconds faster but fires two fewer missiles.
Level 2: Screamers.  Hellfire missiles fly at 150% normal speed but have a 33% worse turn rate as a direct result.
Level 3: Brag Tag (cosmetic).  ‘The Devil’s Own Hellfire’ weapon skin unlocked.  Hellfire weapon also sports a Battle Banner that hangs down from the weapon arm.

Weapon: Vulcan
Level 0: Factory Standard.  Vulcan weapon uses default factory configuration.
Level 1: Servo Pre-charge.  The weapon reaches maximum rate of fire 33% faster but the weapon’s servos must continually spin thus making you easier to detect (audio) and reducing your fuel recharge rate by 5% owing to the continual power requirement.
Level 2: Servo Overcharge.  The weapon’s maximum fire rate is increased by 10% at the cost of 25% higher bullet spread and 15% additional heat generated.
Level 3: Brag Tag (cosmetic).  ‘Chrome’ weapon skin unlocked.  Vulcan weapon also sports a Battle Banner that hangs down from the weapon arm.

Weapon: Grenade Launcher
Level 0: Factory Standard.  GL weapon uses default factory configuration.
Level 1: Slow Burn Fuse.  Launched grenades auto-detonate 2 seconds later than normal.
Level 2: Thermite Interleaving.  Every third grenade launched is a Thermite charge which deals Heat damage instead of regular damage.
Level 3: Brag Tag (cosmetic).  ‘Spitting Dragon’ weapon skin unlocked.  GL weapon also sports a Battle Banner that hangs down from the weapon arm.

Ability: Camouflage (or whatever it’s called)
Level 0: Factory Standard.  Camouflage uses default factory configuration.
Level 1: Wideband Noise.  Ability creates highly localised radar scrambling effect for the duration at the cost of a less effective cloaking effect (i.e., no longer radar invisible and more visible to mark one eyeball).
Level 2: Ambush Mode.  Whilst the mech remains stationary the duration of the ability effect is tripled.  As soon as the mech moves the camouflage ability ends.
Level 3: Brag Tag (cosmetic).  ‘Nox Tiger’ mech skin and adornments set unlocked.

:D

Saunders, this makes me happy.  Oh the joy of it.  I think a little bit of wee just came out.

Not that I'm a screamer...  ;)

Edited by defekt, November 14 2012 - 04:11 AM.





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