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Hawken's Weapon Skill-Curve and Cap


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#1 Beemann

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Posted November 27 2012 - 12:39 AM

This thread is here to continue any unfinished constructive arguments from the "Worries about the "End Game"" thread
In addition, I would encourage any other concerns regarding weapons and their ease-of-use/skill-curve

One thing to consider is that while the numbers of a weapon may be balanced, its ease of use vs a more skill-intensive weapon can and will be used as an advantage, and low skill-cap weapons will serve only as pitfalls for newer players looking to get more competitive. Ideally, all weapons should have a substantial learning curve, and skilled players should be able to take advantage of weapons in ways that new users wouldn't be capable of, whether it be overcoming drawbacks through planning and skill, new uses of the weapon that can only be pulled off after extensive practice, or greatly improved performance with the weapon.

While I don't think Hawken is ever going to be about the skill required to use the weapons as much as it will be about movement and team coordination, that doesn't absolve the game of this issue. It IS, after all, a shooter, and the shooting portion of the game should have a certain amount of depth, especially if we're looking to have higher end/esports play
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#2 Deu

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Posted November 27 2012 - 01:00 AM

View PostBeemann, on November 27 2012 - 12:39 AM, said:

Ideally, all weapons should have a substantial learning curve, and skilled players should be able to take advantage of weapons in ways that new users wouldn't be capable of, whether it be overcoming drawbacks through planning and skill, new uses of the weapon that can only be pulled off after extensive practice, or greatly improved performance with the weapon.

While I don't think Hawken is ever going to be about the skill required to use the weapons as much as it will be about movement and team coordination, that doesn't absolve the game of this issue. It IS, after all, a shooter, and the shooting portion of the game should have a certain amount of depth, especially if we're looking to have higher end/esports play

Why is it I have to be handicapped because I am a better player? Why are the devs catering to the person who is just picking the game up rather than the person who wants to make Hawken a daily part of his life? Why does the entire depth of the game have to be laid right out for a beginner? Why why why why?

Edit: Are there no answers to my questions?

Edited by Deu, November 28 2012 - 12:45 PM.

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#3 z121231211

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Posted November 27 2012 - 01:04 AM

The only thing I have to argue is Seeker vs EOC as I main Rocketeer. Though everyone seems to have a problem with the seeker so I'm sure that's going to be patched.

I really don't see a problem with having easy to use weapons as long as they're not so easy to use that they'd discourage alternatives. As I see it, you could theoretically be extremely effective with the EOC Repeater, but the time required to get the precision and prediction skills necessary might as well be eons compared to the seeker, which in the end would just discourage people from choosing it or trying to get good with it.

Making weapons easy to use but situational would be great, like how I see the hellfires at far range. They're not hard to use but pretty effective for suppression at least.
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#4 Beemann

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Posted November 27 2012 - 01:53 AM

View Postz121231211, on November 27 2012 - 01:04 AM, said:

The only thing I have to argue is Seeker vs EOC as I main Rocketeer. Though everyone seems to have a problem with the seeker so I'm sure that's going to be patched.

I really don't see a problem with having easy to use weapons as long as they're not so easy to use that they'd discourage alternatives. As I see it, you could theoretically be extremely effective with the EOC Repeater, but the time required to get the precision and prediction skills necessary might as well be eons compared to the seeker, which in the end would just discourage people from choosing it or trying to get good with it.

Making weapons easy to use but situational would be great, like how I see the hellfires at far range. They're not hard to use but pretty effective for suppression at least.
The thing is though, while TOW and GL have easy use options (midair detonation, hitting walls near your enemy, etc) they still have some really crazy options (I've had some pretty long distance direct hits with the GL, and I've been improving my ability to bank the 'nade off of walls so I don't need LOS quite so much)
I'd like to see this sort of curve for as many weapons as possible. If a weapon is easy to use at a viable/optimal level, then said viable/optimal level needs to be weaker/less versatile to compensate, otherwise there's no point in learning harder weapons
HOWEVER this presents a problem in itself, as it makes the weapon a "dead end" in terms of skill curve. You'll "max out" that weapon's capability and then have to learn something else to keep competitive, which limits high end meta and creates pitfalls for players learning the game
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#5 ReachH

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Posted November 27 2012 - 02:08 AM

Is this basically another stealth-Seeker QQ thread?

I think you are underestimating the high end meta for the rocketeer. For example did you know that a teammate can throw a bubbleshield on a rocketeer and turn it into a siege busting tank? It literally is immune to bullet damage, and is unaffected because all its weapons are... well you know.

=O

So there will be classes which have a very shallow weapon-skill curve, but teams will still need to have one of them for their novel purposes. Really hard to have any valuable discussion until they release the full game, with the full range of mechs and maps, and we get some competition going =/

*edit* I too would like to see Hawken in an eSport capacity, I think it has a lot of potential beyond a f2p cash cow. I hope the devs share this sort of sentiment.

Edited by ReachH, November 27 2012 - 02:09 AM.

View Post[HWK]HUGHES, on October 23 2013 - 06:01 PM, said:

Development happens.


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#6 Beemann

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Posted November 27 2012 - 02:33 AM

View PostReachH, on November 27 2012 - 02:08 AM, said:

Is this basically another stealth-Seeker QQ thread?

I think you are underestimating the high end meta for the rocketeer. For example did you know that a teammate can throw a bubbleshield on a rocketeer and turn it into a siege busting tank? It literally is immune to bullet damage, and is unaffected because all its weapons are... well you know.

=O

So there will be classes which have a very shallow weapon-skill curve, but teams will still need to have one of them for their novel purposes. Really hard to have any valuable discussion until they release the full game, with the full range of mechs and maps, and we get some competition going =/

*edit* I too would like to see Hawken in an eSport capacity, I think it has a lot of potential beyond a f2p cash cow. I hope the devs share this sort of sentiment.
The weapons with a substantial skill curve are capable of benefiting from items in the same way as the low skill alternatives
You could just as easily shield a Flak+TOW Brawler, or a HEAT+GL Grenadier (and the latter will have two explosive weapons as well! Fancy that)
I actually wanted this thread to be about more than just the seeker. I think the Flak (mini and standard) could use a few changes that promote player skill more than the weapons do now, and the automatics (SMC in particular) could use some cleaning up

And I've already explained why a shallow skill curve doesn't cut it for either side. To reiterate though, if the shallow weapons are as effective as the weapons with depth, then they're the only things worth using, because they require the least amount of effort and training for viability
If they aren't, then they're not going to make it into esports play short of filling a very specific niche that none of them currently fill
There's not even any real point in making shallow skill curve weapons. It's not fun to watch someone play a mini-flak heavy scout, or a rocketeer, or a chokepoint spamming Grenadier (which is not to say that they all require equal skill, just that the learning curve for those three playstyles IS rather shallow in comparison to many others within the game. The reasons for this vary)
To address your continued Seeker defending, what does an auto-aimed Seeker add, that a laser guided (a la Half Life's rocket launcher) or dumb fired rocket doesn't?
Because there's a decent amount of depth that both of those add that the Seeker doesn't
I think to an extent the same goes for hellfire, though I have issues with it outside of the lock-on (inconsistent rockets, the current knockback issue (which, by the way, becomes pretty funny if you hit someone after they get launched off of the jump pad) etc.).

Also you know that bullet weapons can travel out of the bubble, and only splash can enter it right? Every class is unaffected by being bubbled in terms of damage output, and every class is equally subject to splash damage.
Just felt like stressing the fact that there's nothing particularly deep or different about hitting a Rocketeer with a shield as opposed to.. well.. anything else in the game
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#7 SamSlade

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Posted November 27 2012 - 02:33 AM

View PostReachH, on November 27 2012 - 02:08 AM, said:

*edit* I too would like to see Hawken in an eSport capacity, I think it has a lot of potential beyond a f2p cash cow. I hope the devs share this sort of sentiment.

I wouldn't get my hopes up if I were you; in the FPS esports arena it's up against the likes of CS:GO with which it just cannot compete. CS:GO is all choice... there are no meta-game mechanics that will give an advantage.  I anticipate a clan wars system reminiscent of World of Tanks.
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#8 Decoy101x

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Posted November 27 2012 - 02:42 AM

I think it has reports potential. It's different doing different things.

I personally disagree with most of what beeman said here. Then again I think the game is almost perfect the way it is.. So I guess I can be considered a fanboy. Oh we'll.

To my understanding of this thread and the other topics and posts beeman has made is that if be is beaten he wants it to be because of the other players skill, not because they were using an easy weapon or a level 20 mech.
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#9 Beemann

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Posted November 27 2012 - 03:03 AM

View PostDecoy101x, on November 27 2012 - 02:42 AM, said:

To my understanding of this thread and the other topics and posts beeman has made is that if be is beaten he wants it to be because of the other players skill, not because they were using an easy weapon or a level 20 mech.
It's funny that you say that when pretty much every time I've complained it's because I feel I am the one with the unfair advantage when abusing those mechanics. It doesn't feel sensible to me to have some people work harder than others based on in-game mechanics. Skill levels are one thing, exploitation of broken mechanics, and abuse of easily spammed weapons/items/what have you just seems pretty dumb to me. It has the potential to fuzzy bunny over players, mess with the meta, and make the game boring to watch

It's also worth noting that simple options that take little skill are boring as hell to watch. In fact, a good chunk of Hawken's classes are boring as sin to watch. There are bits and pieces of good gameplay in the streams as far as spectating goes (don't get me wrong, quite a few of those players have great tracking/leading and every so often I'm surprised by a particular strat. for better or worse) but for the most part it's just kinda... boring

View PostSamSlade, on November 27 2012 - 02:33 AM, said:

I wouldn't get my hopes up if I were you; in the FPS esports arena it's up against the likes of CS:GO with which it just cannot compete. CS:GO is all choice... there are no meta-game mechanics that will give an advantage.  I anticipate a clan wars system reminiscent of World of Tanks.
NASL made room for Tribes: Ascend, and Firefall is looking for a spot in an ESports circuit. In addition, CS is the only consistent FPS I can think of for PC anymore. Quake's spot as the "other" FPS ESport (held until 2011, nothing to sneeze at considering it's a game from 1999) is "open" now
I doubt some sort of FPS player cull has occurred to prevent 2 FPS ESports from existing simultaneously, and I think Hawken has more merit than Firefall (and Tribes is burning out at this rate)
It's just a matter of finding a circuit that isn't already full of games... which, considering the number of them that exist and the number of failed almost-esports that have emerged and wilted, seems fairly likely if the devs push for high-end play

Edited by Beemann, November 27 2012 - 03:11 AM.

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#10 3Jane

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Posted November 27 2012 - 03:04 AM

EOC's damage compared to its ease of use/loading time makes Seeker such an easy choice for a Rocketeer at the moment.

Really EOC is SO weak I find it hard to believe..

#11 Beemann

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Posted November 27 2012 - 03:12 AM

View Post3Jane, on November 27 2012 - 03:04 AM, said:

EOC's damage compared to its ease of use/loading time makes Seeker such an easy choice for a Rocketeer at the moment.

Really EOC is SO weak I find it hard to believe..
I actually really like the EOC on a mechanical level, and hope it gets the attention it's deserved since Alpha. It has the potential to be a really great weapon
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#12 Decoy101x

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Posted November 27 2012 - 04:55 AM

The eoc, in my opinion, is a weapon that's effectiveness will be very dependent on the players skill. It has potential but I feel needs a damage buff and maybe the projectiles need to go a tad faster.
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#13 Decoy101x

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Posted November 27 2012 - 04:56 AM

Also, is tribes ascend really starting to fail/die?
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#14 Beemann

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Posted November 27 2012 - 05:05 AM

View PostDecoy101x, on November 27 2012 - 04:56 AM, said:

Also, is tribes ascend really starting to fail/die?
I haven`t been hearing particularly good things about comp play, and the viewership has been dropping
I think it has the potential to survive as a normal F2P game, but you can`t make an esport with no spectators
It seems that HiRez is willing to make some pretty big changes to keep it alive though, which is good.
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#15 h0B0

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Posted November 27 2012 - 05:48 AM

Skill based weapons promotes good gamplay and a good experience to the player.

The more options he has to use his weapons effectively the more fun he will have from playing these weapons.

Ex: i feel great when i bank a GL shot off a wall, or use the splash from my TOW to kill an enemy that is out of sight. But on the other hand i am excessively bored when playing the rocketeer with seekers.

To me personally its not only a question of balance its a question of personal pleasure and satisfaction.

here is a list of skills required to be effective with weapons i have experience with.
Seeker:none
AR:aiming
SMC: aiming taking into account spread and therefore positioning
hellfires: when to fire them so the opponent can't dodge/cover
Heat: aiming, charging, less forgiving than the ar/smc
Vulcan: spin up, overheat.
Tow: aiming,mid air detonation, knowledge of splash radius, knowledge of travel speed.
EOC: aiming, charging, slow missile speed ( given more time this weapon might move on the list as i have little experience with it )
Grenade launcher: too many to name them all.

Thats my personal opinion feel free to disagree.

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View Post[HWK]HUGHES, on March 15 2013 - 08:35 PM, said:

Oh don't always listen to h0B0. Lol.


#16 Strikermodel

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Posted November 27 2012 - 05:58 AM

The way I see it, weapons/abilities that have a higher skill curve should have more versatility rather than being straight up better. The GL secondary versus the TOW is a good example. You can bounce the GL off of walls, shoot over walls, hit enemies you can't see, ect. It might not be as easy to use in direct conflicts, but if you traded blows with a tow launcher it would end up being about the same. Sure the TOW isn't able to do all the tricks the GL can, but it makes up for it by being easier to utilize.

#17 Nukerock

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Posted November 27 2012 - 06:18 AM

Guys just wait for the healing gun, I bet it's really high skill.

Or did that get scraped?

When I watch people playing shooters I want to see their amazing aim, not them healing someone else, or using any sort of lock ons.

#18 defekt

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Posted November 27 2012 - 06:54 AM

Correct me if I’ve got the wrong end of the stick here, but as I see it the equation is broadly this:

Weapons that are easy to use (cf. have a low skill ceiling) should be equally effective as the harder to use weapons (cf. have a high skill ceiling) that are being used at the low end of their potential (i.e., low skill use of a high skill weapon), but less effective than the harder weapons that are used in the upper range of their potential (i.e., high skill use on a high skill weapon).


You don’t have to look far to find weapons in the game that currently don’t comply with the above design ethic.  Of course, it would be nice of all weapons had hidden depths but let's face it, Hawken probably isn't that kind of game.  All the more reason then that the above design ethic is kept in mind when coming up with new / modifying old weapons.

Edited by defekt, November 27 2012 - 06:58 AM.


#19 ConsterMonster

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Posted November 27 2012 - 07:09 AM

too be honest I find rocketeer a lot better with EOC repeater. The reason people think the seeker is OP is because the damage out of the hellfire rockets.

The alpha strike of a fully charged EOC and hellfire where at least 50% hit is just insane

#20 Beemann

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Posted November 27 2012 - 03:17 PM

View Postdefekt, on November 27 2012 - 06:54 AM, said:

Correct me if I’ve got the wrong end of the stick here, but as I see it the equation is broadly this:

Weapons that are easy to use (cf. have a low skill ceiling) should be equally effective as the harder to use weapons (cf. have a high skill ceiling) that are being used at the low end of their potential (i.e., low skill use of a high skill weapon), but less effective than the harder weapons that are used in the upper range of their potential (i.e., high skill use on a high skill weapon).


You don’t have to look far to find weapons in the game that currently don’t comply with the above design ethic.  Of course, it would be nice of all weapons had hidden depths but let's face it, Hawken probably isn't that kind of game.  All the more reason then that the above design ethic is kept in mind when coming up with new / modifying old weapons.
I've already explained how this hurts the meta at a high level of play and creates pitfalls for new players who genuinely want to get better
People who chose Rocketeer shouldn't have to swap classes to get better and be competitive. If Rocketeer is "your" class, I'd like you to be able to stick with it as long as you want, and improve just as much as someone using the GL or TOW
And that's one of my big issues with the Hellfire, and one of the reasons why I've never considered the Bruiser to be much of a threat
I don't see any reason to NOT strive for greater weapon depth. You can have easy low-skill low-output uses, like the midair TOW/GL detonation or low charge HEAT spam, but the weapon should have tougher and more reliable ways of being utilized
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