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TPG: proposed handicap system

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#1 Hocisern

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Posted June 16 2014 - 08:11 AM

TPG is nearing the close of it’s main season. It’s been a lot of fun for me and fun for my team (vr-D) as well. TPG has introduced a very different, and I think primarily positive, type of game-play to Hawken in the form of competitive scrims and matches. I’m glad I’ve been a part of it so far and hope to see it continue.

There is room for improvement. One issue with the league right now as I see it is there are not enough teams. While the goal for TPG in its inception was for it to be open to players of all skill levels, this experiment has more or less failed in my opinion. The majority of the players on the current line-up of teams are very experienced, highly rated Hawken veterans. In all honesty, we could more or less just get together on one or two ventrilo clients on the weekends and have what we have right now. Teams with members that are not part of this clique have done poorly and/or disbanded to date. This will not encourage larger numbers of pilots to sign up in the future, rather the opposite.

TPG needs more players. The skill level of current teams is a barrier towards that goal. What can we do to encourage players of many skill levels join the competitive scene?

I propose a handicap system to balance out this problem. This is not uncommon in other types of league sports. Pool leagues, for example require higher rated players to score a percentage higher than their lower rated opponents to secure a win. MMR could fulfill the same role for TPG. A simple formula would be to take the average MMR of Team A, subtract it from the average MMR of Team B and use that remainder to assign a handicap to the higher rated team. A simple method would be to assign a “kill” value to MMR (say 20 MMR = 1 kill) So for example:
1. Team A has 6 players on its roster with MMR’s 2100, 2300, 2400, 2000, 2000, 2200 for an average of 2167.
2. Team B has 8 players on its roster with MMR’s 2000, 1900,1700,1800, 1800, 1600, 1700, 1600 for an average of 1763.
3. The difference between the teams in MMR  is approx 400 (2167-1763 = 404), meaning that Team A needs to score 20 (400/20 = 20) points higher than Team B to win the match.

Not a perfect system; Team A could put two 1300 rated players on their roster with no intention of them ever playing and sandbag their team average MMR to 1950 meaning they would only have to score 9 points higher against Team B. This problem could be circumvented by a) requiring all players on a roster to play a certain percentage of season matches or by only using the actual players in a match for the calculation. Team A could also sandbag their personal MMR’s through subpar play in pub matches. This problem could be circumvented by taking note of all player MMR’s before the handicap system goes into effect.

Do you think it would encourage more teams to join TPG? Do you have concerns about it’s design? Do you have concerns about its implementation? Let me know.

Edited by Hocisern, June 16 2014 - 08:30 AM.


#2 Nept

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Posted June 16 2014 - 08:27 AM

My main issue with such a system is the type of play it encourages.  At the moment, my team (Omni/Uni) doesn't go "balls to the wall";  if we were facing handicaps, however, we would shoot for 80-0 wins - if only to be certain.

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#3 Hocisern

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Posted June 16 2014 - 08:31 AM

Wouldn't it be better to have to try your best?

#4 Nept

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Posted June 16 2014 - 08:38 AM

Not for the opposing teams, it wouldn't.

*Edit* It's also worth mentioning that it's extremely easy to "tank" your MMR - a number that's hardly a stable representation of skill in the first place.  When my teammates and I found that our high MMR values severely restricted our server selection, we had a couple lower MMR friends kill us for a few maps.  Didn't take much time.

Edited by Nept, June 16 2014 - 08:44 AM.

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#5 EliteShooter

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Posted June 16 2014 - 08:40 AM

Obviously besides few teams (high-ups) other teams lost interest and stopped playing; you could verify yourself. And that's because some people feel they don't have a chance:

First because the amount of skill that some teams have is so overwhelming, while some other teams are not even close, so players start feeling like they're getting hammered and decide to just stop playing.

And second is because of the game-mode: where better killers win, TDM a mode that almost doesn't need any strategy or team play. If you can kill better than your enemy, you win, regardless of anything else.



I think as a first step; the mode should be changed to siege, or at the very least missile assault. And the rosters must be restricted as following (this would involve some work required by ashfire, as he has the stats):

*An average MMR of all players registered in the league must be calculated and updated on a daily basis. Let's call it GMMR.
*An average MMR for each team must be calculated and updated each time a change happens to a roster. TnMMR (n stands for the team's number, which is assigned by join date).
*All teams must have an average MMR like the following: GMMR-150<TnMMR<GMMR+150.
*All teams with a TMMR that's out of that range will be promoted to make changes to their rosters for the sake of balance. And I'm sure players won't have a problem changing rosters in order to keep things fair and interesting.

If good players really accept to help least skilled players to have fun and improve, then it will be very great.

Those roster changes could be just simple trades, weather it's 1 for 1 or 1 for 2.


And one thing I'm sure of is that not much players will agree on this as they REALLY don't give a fuzzy bunny. But as long as things will stay this way, TPG has no future, which is something everyone wants to avoid.


Also another simple idea is that [font=play, helvetica, arial, sans-serif]teams get randomized, not totally, but selected semi-randomly based on MMR, resulting in mixed rosters with very close skill level.[/font]

[font=play, helvetica, arial, sans-serif]A chance for low skilled players like me to learn from skilled players, who will also benefit from having me in their team as it can be a chance for them to grow as leaders, and also find the games more challenging.[/font]






[font=play, helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Thoughts?[/font]

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#6 Hocisern

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Posted June 16 2014 - 08:51 AM

View PostNept, on June 16 2014 - 08:38 AM, said:

*Edit* It's also worth mentioning that it's extremely easy to "tank" your MMR - a number that's hardly a stable representation of skill in the first place.  When my teammates and I found that our high MMR values severely restricted our server selection, we had a couple lower MMR friends kill us for a few maps.  Didn't take much time.
"Team A could also sandbag their personal MMR’s through subpar play in pub matches. This problem could be circumvented by taking note of all player MMR’s before the handicap system goes into effect."

Edited by Hocisern, June 16 2014 - 08:54 AM.


#7 Nept

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Posted June 16 2014 - 08:54 AM

Re: EliteShooter

I've not played (much) siege lately, but I suspect it's still terribly flawed.  Missile Assault may be considered either as a replacement or as an additional competition mode.  It's not true, however, that TDM requires no teamwork or strategy.  By and large, the mode has held up quite well in competition.

I also think it's extremely premature to consider the league a failure.  Teams have adhered well to their scheduled matches, and the league serves its purpose in organizing games and bringing together players.  Out of 13 teams, we have had only two teams (two of the weaker teams, yes) drop - which is very respectable considering the size of the community.

Although I'm all for hearing suggestions, I would appreciate that posters take a realistic look at the scene.

*Edit* I also think it's unrealistic to expect randomized/pick-up teams to pull together for matches.  Having experienced a number of pick-up leagues through a number of competitive games, I can tell you that players typically lack the motivation to regularly show/practice with their designated teams.  Most players also prefer selecting their friends and teammates.

A pick-up night might work, but I think that a league based around the concept - especially with a fledgling competitive community - would fail.

Edited by Nept, June 16 2014 - 08:59 AM.

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#8 Hocisern

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Posted June 16 2014 - 08:57 AM

View PostEliteShooter, on June 16 2014 - 08:40 AM, said:

And second is because of the game-mode: where better killers win, TDM a mode that almost doesn't need any strategy or team play. If you can kill better than your enemy, you win, regardless of anything else.

I think as a first step; the mode should be changed to siege, or at the very least missile assault.

I'd personally like to see TPG switch to Siege. That topic has very strong opinions on both sides though (which maybe the majority of current TPG-ers prefering TDM - though this might have changed after this season). The handicap system here tries to get at the feeling some teams have that they don't have a chance without needing to worry about changing the game mode.

#9 PoopSlinger

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Posted June 16 2014 - 09:11 AM

Nicebath was guessing we'd have been able to get a bigger turnout with siege.  Most of our team is people who frequent siege matches though.

#10 Hocisern

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Posted June 16 2014 - 09:14 AM

View PostPoopSlinger, on June 16 2014 - 09:11 AM, said:

Nicebath was guessing we'd have been able to get a bigger turnout with siege.  Most of our team is people who frequent siege matches though.

Probably worth doing a poll before next season to gauge interest.

#11 Daronicus

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Posted June 16 2014 - 09:20 AM

View PostNept, on June 16 2014 - 08:54 AM, said:

Teams have adhered well to their scheduled matches.


*cough*

I kid, of course. <3

Edited by [HFC]Daronicus, June 16 2014 - 09:21 AM.


#12 Onebullit

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Posted June 16 2014 - 09:26 AM

Why not Win/Lose/Draw system? Win = 3 pts / Draw = 1 pts / Lose = 0 pts

All you guys have now i think is win/lose.

In a system where drawing exists, a weaker team could stil go for a draw and for 1 point
instead of losing and getting 0.

But, how do you draw in Hawken?  If you guys play best of 3, then 1 - 1 could be considered
as a drawing situation and the 3rd game would not be played.  That means the only way you can
win the match, is by winning both games, Win one and lose the next would be a draw, and the teams
will get 1 point each.  If best of 5 is played, drawing situation is 2-2.....and so on.

Just thinking out loud here.

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#13 Daronicus

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Posted June 16 2014 - 09:26 AM

On an actually on-topic note, the only map I can stand for siege is Wreckage, and that would get stale very quickly over an entire season.  Furthermore, with two closely-matched teams, Siege games can last a long time, which is an issue where scheduling matches can already be difficult at times.

As for the the handicap idea, a big concern of mine is that it would be very easy to cheese.  I mean, just don't spawn and you win!  That sort of thing.

Edited by [HFC]Daronicus, June 16 2014 - 09:27 AM.


#14 Hocisern

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Posted June 16 2014 - 09:30 AM

View Post[HFC]Daronicus, on June 16 2014 - 09:26 AM, said:

As for the the handicap idea, a big concern of mine is that it would be very easy to cheese.  I mean, just don't spawn and you win!  That sort of thing.
It's TPG so we get to set our own rules, right? Just add a condition that you have to spawn when you die.

*edit: I don't see how this concern is specific to the handicap system. This is a potential issue right now as well.

Edited by Hocisern, June 16 2014 - 09:33 AM.


#15 comic_sans

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Posted June 16 2014 - 09:44 AM

To me, as a guy on the outside, TPG just seems like the top players by a wide margin are on the top 3 teams and have the dedication to stay there.  There really need to be more excellent players for it to be anything other than a treehouse stomp.  Not sure how any handicap can fairly deal with a low population.

Edited by comic_sans, June 16 2014 - 09:46 AM.


#16 Hocisern

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Posted June 16 2014 - 09:47 AM

View PostNept, on June 16 2014 - 08:27 AM, said:

My main issue with such a system is the type of play it encourages.  At the moment, my team (Omni/Uni) doesn't go "balls to the wall";  if we were facing handicaps, however, we would shoot for 80-0 wins - if only to be certain.

I fail to see why handicaps would encourage less "sportsmanship" (which is what I believe your getting at here). Omni doesn't stomp when they don't have to - I can understand/appreciate that. Having a handicap would not require you to go 80-0. It would simple require you to not go 80-40 (or some variation depending on the severity of your handicap). Can you explain in more detail why a handicap would encourage less sportsmanship?

#17 _incitatus

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Posted June 16 2014 - 09:49 AM

What about a draft system at the start of preseason?  This would help to randomize teams while still leaving some control to team captains.  Then we would have the preseason to prepare for the main season...

I would also support switching modes to siege or missle assault.
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[HWK]ZamboniChaos, on April 23 2014 - 11:13 AM, said:

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#18 comic_sans

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Posted June 16 2014 - 09:50 AM

View Post_incitatus, on June 16 2014 - 09:49 AM, said:

What about a draft system at the start of preseason?  This would help to randomize teams while still leaving some control to team captains.  Then we would have the preseason to prepare for the main season...

This makes a lot of sense and would help distribute skill better among teams and give the less ungodly players a chance to learn against a similarly skilled teamcomp.  I dig.  I just see too much domination in a lot of the current matches that have been recorded that aren't between the top 3 teams.

Edited by comic_sans, June 16 2014 - 09:51 AM.


#19 FakeName

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Posted June 16 2014 - 10:01 AM

View PostHocisern, on June 16 2014 - 08:11 AM, said:

[font=Arial]TPG is nearing the close of it’s main season. It’s been a lot of fun for me and fun for my team (vr-D) as well. TPG has introduced a very different, and I think primarily positive, type of game-play to Hawken in the form of competitive scrims and matches. I’m glad I’ve been a part of it so far and hope to see it continue.[/font]

[font=Arial]There is room for improvement. One issue with the league right now as I see it is there are not enough teams. While the goal for TPG in its inception was for it to be open to players of all skill levels, this experiment has more or less failed in my opinion.[/font]
You don't say.
[font=Arial]The majority of the players on the current line-up of teams are very experienced, highly rated Hawken veterans. In all honesty, we could more or less just get together on one or two ventrilo clients on the weekends and have what we have right now. Teams with members that are not part of this clique have done poorly and/or disbanded to date. This will not encourage larger numbers of pilots to sign up in the future, rather the opposite.[/font]
[font=Arial]True.[/font]

[font=Arial]TPG needs more players. The skill level of current teams is a barrier towards that goal. What can we do to encourage players of many skill levels join the competitive scene?[/font]

[font=Arial]I propose a[/font][font=Arial] handicap system[/font][font=Arial] to balance out this problem. This is not uncommon in other types of league sports. Pool leagues, for example require higher rated players to score a percentage higher than their lower rated opponents to secure a win. MMR could fulfill the same role for TPG. A simple formula would be to take the average MMR of Team A, subtract it from the average MMR of Team B and use that remainder to assign a handicap to the higher rated team. A simple method would be to assign a “kill” value to MMR (say 20 MMR = 1 kill) So for example:[/font]
[font=Arial]1. Team A has 6 players on its roster with MMR’s 2100, 2300, 2400, 2000, 2000, 2200 for an average of 2167.[/font]
[font=Arial]2. Team B has 8 players on its roster with MMR’s 2000, 1900,1700,1800, 1800, 1600, 1700, 1600 for an average of 1763.[/font]
[font=Arial]3. The difference between the teams in MMR  is approx 400 (2167-1763 = 404), meaning that Team A needs to score 20 (400/20 = 20) points higher than Team B to win the match.[/font]

[font=Arial]What is 20 points? ( I am not part of TPG league (of restrictions) so I don't know what they play) For example Siege ... 20 points is nothing unlike TDM where 20 points are 50%.[/font]

[font=Arial]Not a perfect system; Team A could put two 1300 rated players on their roster with no intention of them ever playing and [/font][font=Arial]sandbag [/font][font=Arial]their team average MMR to 1950 meaning they would only have to score 9 points higher against Team B. This problem could be circumvented by a) requiring all players on a roster to play a certain percentage of season matches or by only using the actual players in a match for the calculation. Team A could also sandbag their personal MMR’s through subpar play in pub matches. This problem could be circumvented by taking note of all player MMR’s before the handicap system goes into effect.[/font]

[font=Arial]Though I do not participate, I would not suggest this because it is the current balacing system in Hawken and basically punishes players for beeing good or having a high MMR.[/font]

[font=Arial]Do you think it would encourage more teams to join TPG? [/font]
No, and I don't think the main problem is the "balance". If it is for ALL players, you have to fight ALL players against ALL players. Just finished watching football. Germany 4-0 Portugal. Germany simply dominated Portugal and if you want a kind of championsship, you will have these kind of games. If you want a longer existing league, make it like League of Legends. Diamond vs Diamond and Bronze vs Bronze.

In my opinion, the main problem of the TPG league (of restrictions) are its restrictions (hehe!). Players playing Hawken want to paly the game HAWKEN and not anything different. Simple rules (and not many rules!) are okey for ecample no Scanners, but when I've read the Restrictionpage of the League I was very dissappointed because the TPG league is palying a different, very different version of Hawken. Players playing competitive games want to know who is the best IN THIS GAME implemented in ALL OF ITS PROS AND CONS! No matter if anything is op or not.
In my eyes TPG is like the EU zombie mode (Night of the living Fred): Completely different rules and just a sub-version of Hawken with low importance. It is just-for-fun.

[font=Arial]Do you have concerns about it’s design? Do you have concerns about its implementation? Let me know.[/font]



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Edited by FakeName, June 16 2014 - 10:02 AM.

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#20 Nept

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Posted June 16 2014 - 10:01 AM

View PostHocisern, on June 16 2014 - 09:47 AM, said:

View PostNept, on June 16 2014 - 08:27 AM, said:

My main issue with such a system is the type of play it encourages.  At the moment, my team (Omni/Uni) doesn't go "balls to the wall";  if we were facing handicaps, however, we would shoot for 80-0 wins - if only to be certain.

I fail to see why handicaps would encourage less "sportsmanship" (which is what I believe your getting at here). Omni doesn't stomp when they don't have to - I can understand/appreciate that. Having a handicap would not require you to go 80-0. It would simple require you to not go 80-40 (or some variation depending on the severity of your handicap). Can you explain in more detail why a handicap would encourage less sportsmanship?

In a nutshell, the less wiggle room we have, the more space we'll put between the scores.  It's a matter of risk and certainty.  If the handicap demands that win 80-30, for example, we have less room to maneuver.  As a result, I'll tell the team to win by a ridiculous margin - just to be certain.  If we simply have to win, I'll tell the team to ensure the victory, but not to overdo it.

Edited by Nept, June 16 2014 - 10:02 AM.

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