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Countermeasures: Pay-to-Win?


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#1 ReachH

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Posted December 11 2012 - 11:27 PM

So I'm gonna go ahead and call the community into mock jury service. The only point of this thread is to determine if Meteor have breached their 'no P2W ever' promise. If everyone would be so kind as to review the materials below, and then post their own verdicts, it would be much appreciated.

Feel free to post anything you have seen or read which you feel would contribute to this discussion with more perspective. I will update the OP with more relevant materials around the topics of F2P, microtransactions, and how, and if, P2W breaks games, when they are presented.

Please view all the materials before posting.
Please view all the materials before posting.
Please view all the materials before posting.
Please view all the materials before posting.

They provide some foundation for a discussion. Nobody is interested in your rants until you are up to speed.

To start:


A little something to bring everyone (including some devs, unfortunately) up to speed on the right ways to do micro-transactions and F2P.

Particular attention drawn to "NEVER, EVER, EVER SELL POWER". Which in turn is defined as 'anything which affects the balance of gameplay'. I'll leave it to you to decide to what extent countermeasures may or may not fit that description. From my point of view, it looks a rather snug fit.

So no Meteor, I don't think I will be giving countermeasures a go.

----------

*Update1*

View PostLunaticCalm, on December 12 2012 - 09:40 PM, said:

Yep. The perception of P2W is the issue even more so than the actual mechanics of it. Once a game crosses the P2W line, it affects the legitimacy as an esport, and it affects the mindset of the players.

Please, Adhesive and Meteor, please just look to League of Legends. Biggest F2P game on the planet right now, rolling in cash, loved by the players, loved by esports, and steers well away from any hint of P2W.

Surprise! In game store price increase on items. Something that most definitely affects game balance ^ ^
Of course you can earn these with HC. But you can also buy them. If we were to stick to our rule, wouldn't all mechs and items be HC only?
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*Update2*
Stolen from a QQ topic on the state of matchmaking:

View Postandythebomb, on December 13 2012 - 12:55 PM, said:

Read this then comment on the current state of this games f2p economy
hawkens mark long on core free to play/

They promised us something different but were getting the same old fuzzy bunny

Links to an interview with Meteor CEO, giving some vision on what Hawken should be.

Highlights:
Core free to play is not going to be about convenience or about buying your way out of inconvenience,” [CEO, Mark] Long states. “It’s going to be about things like customisation and about choice. Being able to customise your character however you want, to show your affiliation in-game with things that are important to you, be that the sports team that you’re into, or the university you go to or even just a skull and crossbones. It’s going to be not just a game but a lifestyle; a destination on a Friday night for me and my friends.”

He was making a jab at Zynga (facebook games).

Edited by ReachH, December 13 2012 - 01:20 PM.

View Post[HWK]HUGHES, on October 23 2013 - 06:01 PM, said:

Development happens.


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#2 DarkPulse

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Posted December 11 2012 - 11:29 PM

Simply put, no, I don't think they have. What it is is a currently unproven system with no battle data outside of their internal tests.

But guess what? That's why this is "Open Beta" and not "Hawken 1.0." If they find flaws in the system thanks to us, they will tweak it.

Edited by DarkPulse, December 11 2012 - 11:29 PM.

Reason as my minor ego, and opposite my desire to be a murderer.
A coagulated, gloomy thinking in the intelligence, as my major ego.
An antinomian theorem of behaviorism, in all of my thinkings.
It's what we call "The Inversion Impulse."

#3 Zeshi

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Posted December 11 2012 - 11:31 PM

Gotta see the numbers first, could turn out to be reasonable (although its still an unnecessary mechanic)
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#4 ReachH

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Posted December 11 2012 - 11:32 PM

View PostDarkPulse, on December 11 2012 - 11:29 PM, said:

Simply put, no, I don't think they have. What it is is a currently unproven system with no battle data outside of their internal tests.

But guess what? That's why this is "Open Beta" and not "Hawken 1.0." If they find flaws in the system thanks to us, they will tweak it.

True, I guess we will have to wait 'till actual gameplay before deciding. But I have the creeping suspicion that you did not watch the video ;)

View Post[HWK]HUGHES, on October 23 2013 - 06:01 PM, said:

Development happens.


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#5 Elix

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Posted December 11 2012 - 11:39 PM

This thread is about 13 hours too early, I think.
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#6 AsianJoyKiller

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Posted December 11 2012 - 11:42 PM

I do not yet have the required experience to comment in a truly objective manner. My gut says "OH NO THEY DIDN'T!", but I could be mistaken.
I really, really hope I'm mistaken.

[HWK]HUGHES, on July 03 2013 - 11:07 PM, said:

AJK is right

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#7 DarkPulse

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Posted December 11 2012 - 11:48 PM

View PostReachH, on December 11 2012 - 11:32 PM, said:

True, I guess we will have to wait 'till actual gameplay before deciding. But I have the creeping suspicion that you did not watch the video ;)
To be fair, there will probably never be a single thing that costs $70 in Hawken, unless it comes bundled with a ton of Meteor Points like Valkyrie Initiative. (Which I have a feeling that while future packs may contain such things, it's naturally in their monetary interest to foster a pay-as-you-go system, because such bundles usually means giving some points away at less than face value; therefore, future packs will almost certainly cost less.)

Obviously, we also have to see how much CMs cost in MP as well as HP, but obviously things tend to have a higher cost in HP than MP to incentivize the MP option over the HP one.

Edited by DarkPulse, December 11 2012 - 11:53 PM.

Reason as my minor ego, and opposite my desire to be a murderer.
A coagulated, gloomy thinking in the intelligence, as my major ego.
An antinomian theorem of behaviorism, in all of my thinkings.
It's what we call "The Inversion Impulse."

#8 UnionofJack

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Posted December 11 2012 - 11:53 PM

I'll post a reply once I've actually used them, trying to withhold judgement until then, as giving the devs the benefit of the doubt has paid off so far.
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#9 Saer

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Posted December 12 2012 - 12:04 AM

I know the general consensus as of now is clearly negative but passing judgement on the system this early is unfair. But, like many have already said, I hope to god it doesn't turn out as bad as it seemingly appears.. Guess we'll find out in a couple hours.

#10 Necro

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Posted December 12 2012 - 01:09 AM

The idea even without P2W tacked on the front in large painful letters isn't very good.

It's not fun for the enemies and it's dumb luck for the user,

#11 ZHRGG

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Posted December 12 2012 - 01:36 AM

They can only be used once per mech life, and there's nothing on the duration. Just wait another 10 hours until OB starts then pass judgment instead of panicking about nothing.

#12 Urvanis

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Posted December 12 2012 - 02:05 AM

I don't run emp or radar jammer, and most mechs I fight blow up before they can overheat, I have no intentions of using countermeasures, so I wouldn't even really notice the difference from cb3.

I don't like them, I hate the idea of consumables in a pvp game. But when I step back and look at it. It has no effect on me.
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#13 Umbre

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Posted December 12 2012 - 02:20 AM

I can't judge the countermeasures in terms of mechanics at this point, but my problem with it right now comes down to actual money. Previously when testing, we were essentially given free reign with all the features at no cost. Potentially though, people could sink money into counter-measures, only to have them removed entirely from the game if the devs decide to remove them after they've reviewed their effect on the players.

I've always firmly believed that when offering micro-transactions in a game, you should never be able to purchase something that actually influences the in-game mechanics. You could end up with somebody who can toss money at the game all he/she wants and have the advantage of never running out of counter-measures, while other players may not be so fortunate, and struggle to keep up. I understand it's a business, but it's a mechanic that directly influences the gameplay and enjoyment of said gameplay that the other players experience.

#14 Fendelphi

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Posted December 12 2012 - 04:09 AM

View PostUmbre, on December 12 2012 - 02:20 AM, said:

I've always firmly believed that when offering micro-transactions in a game, you should never be able to purchase something that actually influences the in-game mechanics. You could end up with somebody who can toss money at the game all he/she wants and have the advantage of never running out of counter-measures, while other players may not be so fortunate, and struggle to keep up. I understand it's a business, but it's a mechanic that directly influences the gameplay and enjoyment of said gameplay that the other players experience.

Agree on that Micro-transactions should never have a direct effect on the gameplay itself. The only exception is, if it is also possible to get said consumables with ingame currency(though you would have to work for it). I here refer to the "battlefield P4F"'s healing consumables which allows you to spend in game currency(and real money, IIRC) to buy what you could call "low grade healing potions". Your invesment in time into the game gives you ingame credits and these can be used to further enjoy your experience.
Everyone had access to it, but you would have to decide if it was worth your ingame money or not(it is not a necessity to play the game semi-competetively).
Ofc it must not be a game changing mechanic that is introduced, so that it becomes a default rather than an option(which we cant say if it is or not yet).

Hopefully they will be "weak" enough to only be an optional decision, where you can buy them at a reasonable price with ingame money so that they do not become a PtW.

Edited by Fendelphi, December 12 2012 - 04:11 AM.


#15 KaszaWspraju

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Posted December 12 2012 - 04:51 AM

Quote

To be fair, there will probably never be a single thing that costs $70 in Hawken,


This has already happened, some players have already paid 90 some dollars.

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#16 Mothanos

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Posted December 12 2012 - 05:06 AM

2 games stand out to have a very solid micro system that does not touch ingame balance.

Eve online - altough a sub is required, once you play for awhile you never ever have to spend money.

Guildwars 2 - same as above altough is BtP with a cash shop you can convert your purchased gems to sell on the market and get ingame curreny back.

Also recently released is Planetside 2 - but i have not checked their cash shop good enough to give a verdict of that game is pay to win.


its very bad if a good game turns it into a pay to win model where players who do not have the cash are farmed by players who spend 20+ euro on gear / weapons and own face.

This kind of stuff belongs on private servers and never ever in any serious games if you ask me.
Guildwars 2 has also proved it has so much potential to transfer real money into game curreny and vice versa.

Curious to see how this pans out tough :)

#17 Ollie

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Posted December 12 2012 - 06:22 AM

View PostUmbre, on December 12 2012 - 02:20 AM, said:

I've always firmly believed that when offering micro-transactions in a game, you should never be able to purchase something that actually influences the in-game mechanics. You could end up with somebody who can toss money at the game all he/she wants and have the advantage of never running out of counter-measures, while other players may not be so fortunate, and struggle to keep up. I understand it's a business, but it's a mechanic that directly influences the gameplay and enjoyment of said gameplay that the other players experience.
This.  It's bad as far as general P2W goes, and it appears at first blush to be a really poor mechanic as well.  It sounds like something a VC welded on there last minute with bubblegum and duct tape.
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#18 h0B0

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Posted December 12 2012 - 06:23 AM

First:

View PostScapes, on December 11 2012 - 07:01 PM, said:

View PostElix, on December 11 2012 - 06:44 PM, said:

Nowhere in the patch notes does it say that countermeasures require Meteor Points. If you can buy them with HC, it's not P2W.

Countermeasures are purchasable using either HAWKEN Credits or Meteor Credits.
Now go back to your video and skip to min:4:00.

Your thread is ridiculous and manage to contradict yourself in the OP.

Second

View PostScapes, on December 11 2012 - 06:04 PM, said:

Vanguard Mech

Players who purchased the Ensign, Lieutenant, or Commander bundles will receive the exclusive, prototype Vanguard mech with the following loadout.
  • Name: Vanguard
  • Class: Heavy (Class C)
  • Chassis: Cupcake
  • Ability: Vanguard Turret (currently operates same as Mobile Turret)
  • Primary Weapon: Submachine Cannon
  • Alternate Primary Weapon: Mini Flak Cannon
  • Secondary Weapon: Grenade Launcher
  • Unlockable Prestige Weapon: Point-D Vulcan
  • Offense Item: Detonator
  • Support Item: Repair Charge
  • Offensive Internal: Brand-New Radiator (Rookie Offensive Internal)
  • Defensive Internal: Brand-New Cage (Rookie Defensive Internal)
  • Functional Internal: Brand-New Regulator (Rookie Functional Internal)

WHAT THE BUNNY HAWKENITES!
Posted Image

MTR/ADH releases a mech with an exclusive loadout and internals that are only accessible on the assault and no community uproar?
But they release a service that is purchasable with ingame currency and you QQ. What matter of faulty reasoning is this. If the countermeasures have managed to make me rage because i think they are detrimental to the game you guys have made me rage thanks to your sheer stoopidity (no offence).

Third.
Watch this. its long, its boring but its "educational"
http://www.slideshar...s/paying-to-win

Edited by h0B0, December 12 2012 - 06:24 AM.

Click me! I dare you.

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View Post[HWK]HUGHES, on March 15 2013 - 08:35 PM, said:

Oh don't always listen to h0B0. Lol.


#19 Karaipantsu

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Posted December 12 2012 - 07:29 AM

I highly doubt these CM's will be game breakers.  The only useful one is the EMP resistance, and getting EMPed is more often a nuisance than a death, in my experience.  I more often end up EMPing myself and my opponent because I'm retarded when it comes to determining the radius of the blast.  The Extinguisher would be useful while you're still learning heat management, but when you get good enough, I can't see that it'd be necessary or even wanted.  The Descrambler is just comically useless, if the Radar scrambler is the same as it was in CBE3.

Competitive advantage?  Yes, obviously.  A big enough one to make a difference at any level of play beyond scrub?  Severely doubtful.  When it goes live, I'll gladly playtest the hell out of 'em, but from the design and description, they're mostly a crutch for new players to soften the learning curve.

#20 rdKNIGHTMAREZ

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Posted December 12 2012 - 07:54 AM

i agree with karaipantsu these seem hardly pay-to-win and more pay-to-get-split-second-advantage.

emp lasts what 5 seconds? so does overheat?

I think although i agree with extra-credits and the general idea of being against pay-to-win.......it would be nice to have some sort of sink.

Imagine if someone bought alot of credits and purchased everything....then they would have nothing to spend hawken credits on. No sink.

got the paint jobs, got all the mechs....what to spend on?

a consumable which isn't click-win....is something to sink the money onto.




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