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New weapons = spam


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#1 RedVan

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Posted November 21 2012 - 01:44 AM

From alpha to CBE2, the game had fairly good balance.  A few tweaks here and there helped it.

But these new weapons... mini flak cannon?  grenade launcher?  seeking missiles?

It's all just spam to win.

I finally quit a game of hawken due to not being able to bear the noobishness.  1st time since alpha!

#2 Dreizehn

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Posted November 21 2012 - 01:58 AM

Well, players who spam their weapons like complete fuzzy bunny just end up missing all day and overheating themselves.

It's still pretty clear who's the better pilot in the fights I've engaged in, rather than it being about who holds down their triggers more.

#3 AsianJoyKiller

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Posted November 21 2012 - 02:03 AM

View PostDreizehn, on November 21 2012 - 01:58 AM, said:

Well, players who spam their weapons like complete fuzzy bunny just end up missing all day and overheating themselves.

It's still pretty clear who's the better pilot in the fights I've engaged in, rather than it being about who holds down their triggers more.
How to win with Mini Flak: W+Mouse1 at close range. Will kill before overheating.
How to win with Seeker: Mouse1 at range, will not overheat in a million years.
How to win with Rev GL: lolno, but still won't overheat. The universe will collapse before this thing overheats.

[HWK]HUGHES, on July 03 2013 - 11:07 PM, said:

AJK is right

The Sinful Infil HEAT Cannon Hustler, Cloaking and Smoking, C-Class Swagger, Ballin' n' Brawlin'


#4 Etan

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Posted November 21 2012 - 02:38 AM

i have yet to see someone play gernadier xD how is the rev GL? otherwise i completely agree haha.
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#5 Beemann

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Posted November 21 2012 - 02:49 AM

It shoots out a stream of little pipe bombs and it never overheats
Ever
It's impossible to get past a chokepoint with a Grenadier on the other side without taking a decent amount of damage, and all they have to do is hold down m1 and occasionally press m2 when they think you'll get hit by it

Edited by Beemann, November 21 2012 - 02:49 AM.

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#6 z121231211

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Posted November 21 2012 - 03:16 AM

Seeking missiles seem pretty useless. If you have decent aim the EOC is much more effective. Though if you suck at aiming at least the Seeking Missiles allow you to do some damage I guess.
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#7 Beemann

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Posted November 21 2012 - 03:20 AM

View Postz121231211, on November 21 2012 - 03:16 AM, said:

Seeking missiles seem pretty useless. If you have decent aim the EOC is much more effective. Though if you suck at aiming at least the Seeking Missiles allow you to do some damage I guess.
It's not the damage per missile so much as it is the fact that you're basically guaranteed to hit a stream of missiles, and there's pretty much no heat management required
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#8 Etan

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Posted November 21 2012 - 03:21 AM

^
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#9 Doormaster

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Posted November 21 2012 - 06:58 AM

I've gotten to the overheat level with the RevGL a few times

Although I might just be terrible at this game haha

#10 Entity

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Posted November 21 2012 - 07:52 AM

View PostAsianJoyKiller, on November 21 2012 - 02:03 AM, said:

How to win with Rev GL: lolno, but still won't overheat. The universe will collapse before this thing overheats.

I've actually seen a guy win a round with a grenadier using the Rev-GL, which surprised me. He seemed to know how to use the weapon effectively.

(In general, grenade type weapons tend to require more skill to be good with them)

#11 HugeGuts

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Posted November 21 2012 - 08:07 AM

View PostAsianJoyKiller, on November 21 2012 - 02:03 AM, said:

View PostDreizehn, on November 21 2012 - 01:58 AM, said:

Well, players who spam their weapons like complete fuzzy bunny just end up missing all day and overheating themselves.

It's still pretty clear who's the better pilot in the fights I've engaged in, rather than it being about who holds down their triggers more.
How to win with Mini Flak: W+Mouse1 at close range. Will kill before overheating.
How to win with Seeker: Mouse1 at range, will not overheat in a million years.
How to win with Rev GL: lolno, but still won't overheat. The universe will collapse before this thing overheats.

The developers say they want to make weapons that are easy to use for new people. It seems these three weapons are just those. However, the Mini Flak is the only one close to balance.

Seekers should be laser guided instead of homing. That way, they won't be so "fire and forget."

Rev GL isn't good at anything but corner camping - The projectiles are extremely easy to dodge past very close range, especially because of their timer. But even corner camping is mitigated when you can fly over the grenades. The Rev GL should detonate on any impact, have a shorter fuse, and/or travel faster.

Mini Flak is easy to use, but the Flak Cannon is better in skilled hands. For example, the Flak Cannon has a higher effective range than the Mini Flak. Its slow firing rate resets its spread before firing again. Meanwhile, the Mini Flak's spread is all over the place the moment you hold down the fire button.

Edited by HugeGuts, November 21 2012 - 08:09 AM.


#12 AsianJoyKiller

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Posted November 21 2012 - 08:12 AM

View PostHugeGuts, on November 21 2012 - 08:07 AM, said:

Rev GL isn't good at anything but corner camping - The projectiles are extremely easy to dodge past very close range, especially because of their timer. But even corner camping is mitigated when you can fly over the grenades. The Rev GL should detonate on any impact, have a shorter fuse, and/or travel faster.
They do.
I'll be putting in some more practice with it today, just to see how viable it is.
So far, however, I find the people I get put against (People like NotKjell, Beemann, BuDaKai, etc.) have little or no problems dealing with it. Really, the best I can do is just spam it on the point while they're distracted and hope I'm not supposed to be carrying my team.

Edited by AsianJoyKiller, November 21 2012 - 08:12 AM.

[HWK]HUGHES, on July 03 2013 - 11:07 PM, said:

AJK is right

The Sinful Infil HEAT Cannon Hustler, Cloaking and Smoking, C-Class Swagger, Ballin' n' Brawlin'


#13 Dreizehn

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Posted November 21 2012 - 08:15 AM

Got up and tired the Seeker. Oh man, talk about noobcannon. If you can keep your reticule on a target worth a damn, it'll never miss.

#14 [HWK]HUGHES

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Posted November 21 2012 - 08:53 AM

We aren't done with balancing and it's something we can do on the backend pretty easily. We intend to do so throughout this Closed Beta as needed. The new weapons need some tweaking still but we've found a pretty good balance in their role. Plus since some of these are new, I'm seeing a lot of those mechs in games right now because people want to try them but I expect that to level out throughout the duration of CBT3.

Also, the goal is to add options for players through some interesting weapons that match select play styles. I don't play the Grenadier as much outside of Siege and it's great when a bunch of players are all hiding under the AA. I'll try to turret up and just lob away... that is until someone in a lighter class mech gets behind me and ends that reign.

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#15 TheChaffeemancer

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Posted November 21 2012 - 09:02 AM

Kiwi's disappointed that none of the new mechs have unique secondaries. It feels like the team really, really wants to stick with the few weapons they got.

It's made worse by the fact that both the Scout and Bruiser have very alternate primaries that are almost the same as their defaults.

Edited by TheChaffeemancer, November 21 2012 - 09:03 AM.

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#16 RedVan

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Posted November 21 2012 - 11:09 AM

Flak and grenade could go for a rof reduction.  I don't think their damage is excessive, it's just super spammy, which makes it nearly impossible to avoid.

SS should be put back to CBE2 values.  If you must nerf it, just reduce slug a little.  It was quite well balanced in CBE2.

Seeker....  IMO just take it out.  But I doubt that'll happen.  Add lock on time and a warning, and reduce rof.


The biggest problem with the spammy weapons is map related.  You have many tight quarters, hallways, under the AA, around missile silos, etc....  when you have high rof weapons, especially ones with splash damage, it's hard not to hit your target.  Essentially what it comes down to is, if you have the firepower through rof, just rush the enemy player spamming at them.  I'd prefer seeing more strategy and movement involved.

#17 Beemann

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Posted November 21 2012 - 11:14 AM

View PostHugeGuts, on November 21 2012 - 08:07 AM, said:

Mini Flak is easy to use, but the Flak Cannon is better in skilled hands. For example, the Flak Cannon has a higher effective range than the Mini Flak. Its slow firing rate resets its spread before firing again. Meanwhile, the Mini Flak's spread is all over the place the moment you hold down the fire button.
Higher DPS than the Vulcan ever had is not as useful in skilled hands? I dunno about that
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#18 Brevillance

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Posted November 21 2012 - 11:29 AM

none of those are really "new" ...weve had seeking missles...weve had grenade launchers and we had mini-flacks...just cuz they are new doesnt mean spam..and those that do will do horrible dealing with more then 1 person..so...

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#19 ScHizNiK

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Posted November 21 2012 - 11:31 AM

Using a flak/mini flak requires you to close distance and be careful with your explosive weapons, the problem is that people are trying to spam fire the assault rifle/smg.  Once people learn to burst fire these weapons (to keep them accurate) flak play is going to get lots harder.
Gl needs aiming and timing the only real fire and forget weapon is the seeker.

Ggs the other day guts.

View PostBeemann, on November 21 2012 - 11:14 AM, said:

Higher DPS than the Vulcan ever had is not as useful in skilled hands? I dunno about that

Dps is dps flak has more burst damage when using cover, a miniflak needs more time on target

Edited by ScHizNiK, November 21 2012 - 11:33 AM.

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#20 Panssarikauha

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Posted November 21 2012 - 11:35 AM

The biggest thing with the new weapons is the heat generation. Its just too low, especially with the GL, as with it if I know there is an enemy "Somewhere over there" I dont actually have to care about things.
The mini-flak.. It doesnt strike me as a heat drawback weapon, more that it'd need more spread / recoil.
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