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Dont bother with matchmaking


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#1 RedVan

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Posted January 04 2013 - 02:05 AM

Just bring dedicated servers back in.

Here are the inherent problems with matchmaking:

1.  You cannot matchmake based on mech level.  This is what most noobs complain about in game.  "Boo hoo, my level 1 mech cant compete with level 25".  This is false.  The percentage difference between level 1 and 25 is so minimal, its not worth mentioning.  Besides, I've seen many players destroy high level players with level 1 mechs.

2.  You can kinda matchmake based on "mech mastery" or whatever, if it involves an equation factoring how many points a player earns completing objectives, etc...  but even this form of matchmaking is hardly worth it.

Why?

We're (supposed to be) getting dedicated servers!  Why not just throw matchmaking out the window, and let players pick and choose where they want to play.  It's long been the preferred method for any PC gamer.  We had them before.  Why not just re-implement deds and move on to more important things?

#2 Pursang

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Posted January 04 2013 - 02:29 AM

Why not have both? Once dedicated servers are back in, no one is forcing you to use matchmaking. You're only limiting the way that people can play by getting rid of one over the other.
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#3 Adam_Grisc0

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Posted January 04 2013 - 03:21 AM

I just made a thread not to long ago about this topic, but yes, bring dedicated servers back.

http://community.pla...ou-to-see-this/

#4 jalmar

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Posted January 04 2013 - 03:56 AM

Totally off topic and maby i am misstaken but isn't the term "dedicated servers" totally irrelevant to the matchmaking / server browser discussion, or is there another defenition of this term?

To me it sounds like your'e discussing the host option of dedicated servers VS virtual servers which is more of an economic efficiency question and should be left to the experts to determine.

Of course i understand what you intend to say, but the chosen terminology may be confusing for some people.

Edited by jalmar, January 04 2013 - 04:05 AM.


#5 Snacuum

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Posted January 04 2013 - 05:16 AM

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Besides, I've seen many players destroy high level players with level 1 mechs.

Which is why I'm all for making leveling a pilot attribute not a mech attribute. People don't instinctively see a lv. 24 bruiser or scout or whatever they see a player at level 24 which immediately informs them that this player is better than them. If this was relative to the player (pilot level) than the mech (class level) then all the newbies whinging about being trounced would be legitimate rather than confusing; we wouldn't have to keep reminding them that mech level means nothing.

And yes this does mean I'm an advocate for a global level that applies to all mechs. To me this is sensible since advancement in the skill/tech-tree are tied to player experience, while capabilities of the mech will be tied mech parts.

#6 Cypherhalo

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Posted January 04 2013 - 05:28 AM

Eh, most people use matchmaking rather then server browser so I'd prefer they implement some kind of "mech mastery" rating and use that to help balance matchmaking.  You're right, it can't be based off mech level b/c anyone can grind to lvl 25.  

I have to wonder if they removed server browser just because psychologically, it doesn't do anyone any good to see so many empty servers/games.  I remember seeing a lot of empty ones back during the alpha/closed beta and yeah, I'm sure the population is higher now but still, I'm just wondering, I don't know anything for sure.  Regardless, server browser can be annoying because you try to get into a game that says 11/12 but it turns out someone got in right before you, blah blah blah.  

I mean, I'm ok with bringing server browser back but I think matchmaker should be a higher priority.  That and giving people who want to group up and fight other groups a way to do so.  That's not me, but I'm sure some people would like that.
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#7 Cypherhalo

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Posted January 04 2013 - 05:30 AM

View PostSnacuum, on January 04 2013 - 05:16 AM, said:

Quote

Besides, I've seen many players destroy high level players with level 1 mechs.

Which is why I'm all for making leveling a pilot attribute not a mech attribute. People don't instinctively see a lv. 24 bruiser or scout or whatever they see a player at level 24 which immediately informs them that this player is better than them. If this was relative to the player (pilot level) than the mech (class level) then all the newbies whinging about being trounced would be legitimate rather than confusing; we wouldn't have to keep reminding them that mech level means nothing.

And yes this does mean I'm an advocate for a global level that applies to all mechs. To me this is sensible since advancement in the skill/tech-tree are tied to player experience, while capabilities of the mech will be tied mech parts.

Meh, I don't think having a global level would work well.  I'd favor two levels, one being your pilot level and the other being your mech level. In fairness to the newbies, as the game is still young anyone sporting a lvl 25 right now is probably a legitimately good player.  Give it a few months though and lots of us will have lvl 25 mechs even if we are only average.
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#8 ArmoredCore

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Posted January 04 2013 - 06:57 AM

Tbh, matchmaking is probably going to have to use the server listing anyway.
If you split the community to using one or the other, you're going to have higher queue times and longer waits to start private games

However, if matchmaking is allowed to throw people into public games (ie non-passworded or level locked) then you can happily have both working alongside each other
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#9 Nitris

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Posted January 05 2013 - 04:57 AM

View PostArmoredCore, on January 04 2013 - 06:57 AM, said:

However, if matchmaking is allowed to throw people into public games (ie non-passworded or level locked) then you can happily have both working alongside each other

By allowing people to freely join "match maker" servers you basically remove the entire point of having a match maker system in the first place, regardless of if you somehow get a decent, accurate and reliable level-locking system working (which will be an incredible feat in and of itself).
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#10 z121231211

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Posted January 05 2013 - 05:44 AM

View PostCypherhalo, on January 04 2013 - 05:28 AM, said:

Eh, most people use matchmaking rather then server browser
Wait, what? I'm sure some people would use matchmaking but I don't think most would prefer to use it.

Though I'm biased because I've never used the matchmaker when I had the choice to use the server browser.
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#11 Snacuum

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Posted January 06 2013 - 09:53 PM

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Give it a few months though and lots of us will have lvl 25 mechs even if we are only average.

I won't. seriously it take friggin forever. I dislike mech level simply because it makes it like goddamn Pokemon. I'm just not interested in leveling up every mech I catch.

#12 RedVan

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Posted January 06 2013 - 11:37 PM

View PostSnacuum, on January 06 2013 - 09:53 PM, said:

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Give it a few months though and lots of us will have lvl 25 mechs even if we are only average.

I won't. seriously it take friggin forever. I dislike mech level simply because it makes it like goddamn Pokemon. I'm just not interested in leveling up every mech I catch.

It's really not that hard to level a mech.  My friend leveled a scout to 25 in about 10 hrs.  Granted, he's above average...  anyway, leveling in hawken is very fast compared to any other game with leveling.

#13 Elix

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Posted January 07 2013 - 12:03 AM

View PostCypherhalo, on January 04 2013 - 05:28 AM, said:

I have to wonder if they removed server browser just because psychologically, it doesn't do anyone any good to see so many empty servers/games.  I remember seeing a lot of empty ones back during the alpha/closed beta and yeah, I'm sure the population is higher now but still, I'm just wondering, I don't know anything for sure.  Regardless, server browser can be annoying because you try to get into a game that says 11/12 but it turns out someone got in right before you, blah blah blah.  

I mean, I'm ok with bringing server browser back but I think matchmaker should be a higher priority.  That and giving people who want to group up and fight other groups a way to do so.  That's not me, but I'm sure some people would like that.
Adhesive specifically and explicitly stated, on the record, that the server browser was removed temporarily to force people to use the matchmaking system so they could get data on it and improve it. It had been added in a previous update, but basically nobody was using it because it was more convenient to just click over to the server you wanted. This will not do if there's to be ranked games (and with the difference in skill/mech selection that playing for 3 months can make, there'd better be ranked games unless everyone wants the current state of skill imbalance in matchmaking to stay). A number of those empty servers were also, usually, unjoinable due to bugs (it'd give you an error -- another reason why they were empty).

Matchmaking is currently being worked on by the devs. Dedicated (rented) servers, the server browser, and clan functionality are planned for an update together at some point in the future. So, matchmaking is a higher priority right now.
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#14 Etan

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Posted January 07 2013 - 07:41 AM

I wonder if the Dev's plan to make Hawken Points lowered when you dont use the matchmaking system. Make you grind for credits and exp in mm.
I hope they get Matchmaking working. I think it works better for casual players to find games and keep on playing.
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#15 Elix

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Posted January 07 2013 - 07:47 AM

View PostEtan, on January 07 2013 - 07:41 AM, said:

I wonder if the Dev's plan to make Hawken Points lowered when you dont use the matchmaking system. Make you grind for credits and exp in mm.
You're the first one I've seen suggesting this... whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy

Why did you have to type that?
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#16 Etan

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Posted January 07 2013 - 07:59 AM

So matchmaking is actually used?
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#17 Nitris

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Posted January 07 2013 - 09:45 AM

I had to stop and delete my reply to the above three times because I'd probably get banned for the language I used.

So here is the cleanest version I can muster:


fuzzybunny fuzzybunny funnybuzzy DO fuzzybunny NOT fuzzybunny fuzzybunny funnybuzzy WANT fuzzybuzzy THIS fuzzybunny funnybunny fuzzybuzzy fuzzybunny buzzyfunny fuzzybunny


Punsh players who do not want to torture themselves by using the matchmaker? Have you lost your mind?!
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#18 Beemann

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Posted January 07 2013 - 11:14 AM

From another thread

View PostNitris, on January 07 2013 - 11:03 AM, said:

You name five FPS games that have decent matchmaking systems that work very well and that noone ever complains about and I will name five that have a matchmaking system that doesn't work well at all and everyone complains about.
1. Complaints are not a valid metric to measure matchmaker effectiveness
2. Why do they have to be FPS games?
3. Why do you feel that the existence of bad matchmaking systems proves anything?

Edited by Beemann, January 07 2013 - 11:16 AM.

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#19 Nitris

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Posted January 07 2013 - 11:30 AM

View PostBeemann, on January 07 2013 - 11:14 AM, said:

1. Complaints are not a valid metric to measure matchmaker effectiveness
2. Why do they have to be FPS games?
3. Why do you feel that the existence of bad matchmaking systems proves anything?

1. Could you explain why this is not the case? If people are unhappy with the system, something must be wrong, right?
2. It has to be FPS games because Hawken is an FPS game. I'm not sure why I have to explain this.
3. The simple existence wouldn't prove anything, however the overwhelming abundance, and the ratio of good vs bad being horribly tipped to the 'bad' side is surely indictive of something, correct? That so many have failed before them, what tricks are up ADH's sleeves that make them think they can succeed in this nigh impossible endevour?
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#20 Beemann

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Posted January 07 2013 - 11:35 AM

1. Do you know what confirmation bias is?
2. What makes an FPS supposedly incompatible with matchmaking? Why can other team-based games work? What makes an FPS incompatible with THOSE systems?
3. With that in mind, shouldn't we give up on say... writing or reading books about vampires, since there's an overwhelming abundance of bad contemporary vampire novels? Should we give up on particular genres because most of the films or books in them are bad? Or do we actually look at this rationally and try to decide what a good system would be?
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