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Remove Heat Manipulation From Incinerator


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#1 ThirdEyE

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Posted May 17 2014 - 01:42 PM

The Incinerator has been a very strong mech since its inception, and I think it's time to take it down a notch.

The SAARE has the highest DPS of any secondary by a good margin and yet it still has the added bonus of generating heat on the enemy for each hit.  It's an unnecessary bonus for a weapon that only requires mediocre aim, and is simply frustrating to play against.

Also, the Incinerator passive heat degeneration aura is in the same boat.  For a mech as strong as the Incinerator, being able to decrease your allies' heat constantly with no effort or tradeoff is entirely unnecessary.

Why does the Incinerator have these features?  Would it be an underpowered mech without them?
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#2 Bazookagofer

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Posted May 17 2014 - 01:44 PM

Wait what? This was a feature whole time?! *face palm*

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#3 Mechsupport

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Posted May 17 2014 - 01:46 PM

I'm not sold that the Incinerator needs a nerf, but I think OP's points are valid and I'd be interested in hearing a refutation from someone knowledgeable.  It seems to be a pattern that Incinerator and Tech are the game winning mechs in PUGs these days, and as long as your team has those two, it doesn't matter much what the rest plays.

#4 shosca

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Posted May 17 2014 - 01:56 PM

SAARE needs aoe nerf. 40 min damage in 28m diameter is too much. For reference tow/gl does 20 in same diameter. Also the rate of fire is higher than tow/gl making its dps more than twice the tow/gl.

Edited by shosca, May 17 2014 - 01:59 PM.


#5 DaPheel

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Posted May 17 2014 - 02:29 PM

Great idea for a mech, but it's damage output combined with it's various abilities is a little bit much. I'd say reduce the damage, because to lose his skills would be a shame.

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#6 DerMax

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Posted May 17 2014 - 02:33 PM

That, and decrease the SAARE projectile's size.

#7 Zilph

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Posted May 17 2014 - 03:20 PM

I believe damage needs a definite reduction, yes. More so on the SAARE than on any of its primaries (tech still has decent primaries as a support, but is hindered by its support secondary). It's support functionality needs to stand out more compared to its combat functionality. Keeping your allies heat level in check along with being able to add more heat to the enemy (maybe a little less heat unlike now, considering the radius for draining an enemy's heat is small, and much slower compared to allies) is what makes it a support mech. But the amazing damage and splash output make it a heavy assault mech.

#8 KilleR_OrigiNs

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Posted May 17 2014 - 03:21 PM

I think an overall debuff would be good, decrease the aura size, the dps in total, and as Op stated, remove the heat generation from the weapons.

I could understand all of those things should he be a B class, but he's not.
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#9 Exeon

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Posted May 17 2014 - 04:51 PM

So this only applies to the large(OP) version of the SAARE, the 60 damage version does not generate any heat on targets. Is this intended?

View PostDew, on April 04 2014 - 01:15 PM, said:

There's a difference between making the hoop 14 feet high and telling all the players that you have to wait for half a second after running before you can shoot the ball.


#10 jrkong

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Posted May 17 2014 - 05:21 PM

View Postshosca, on May 17 2014 - 01:56 PM, said:

SAARE needs aoe nerf. 40 min damage in 28m diameter is too much. For reference tow/gl does 20 in same diameter. Also the rate of fire is higher than tow/gl making its dps more than twice the tow/gl.
SAARE is way less utilitarian though. I can't even count the number of times I've missed shots I would have landed if I had the air burst function. It does have higher rate of fire but it's got much less burst output meaning Incinerators are more exposed 90% of the time. Comparing the TOW+GL to the SAARE isn't really fair in the sense that you're comparing burst damage vs sustained damage. It's like saying Slug Rifle vs RPR. Is the RPR more OP then the Slug Rifle because it has higher DPS?

I agree that heat gen off of the secondary SAARE isn't entirely necessary BUT you're also forgetting the Incinerator also steals heat from enemies which is entirely unnecessary so it does balance out in that sense if you're in close proximity with the Incinerator. Unless you're constantly getting hit by SAARE shots it won't really affect you and if you're close enough to the Incinerator you'll probably lose more heat then you gain if they're using the B4BY. The PPA is a total gambit in the sense that unless you can manage your heat well you'll isolate yourself from the team and the extra heat gen from the SAARE could be seen as a way to balance the heat you gain when you're near enemies. The M4MA is the main reason I'd think this mechanic exists as the M4MA's heat debuff+SAARE is the only way an Incinerator could overheat a mech quicker at a noticeable rate but the M4MA user needs to be good at landing their shots for this to happen.

I think you guys are downplaying how hard heat management can be if you were to constantly use secondary SAARE shots on the Incinerator. Constant big balls require either the PPA or M4MA and in a heated battle you'll be relying on your secondary SAARE a lot more then your primary meaning you'll have lower DPS overall.

Edited by jrkong, May 17 2014 - 05:58 PM.


#11 Van_Tuz

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Posted May 18 2014 - 12:25 AM

I completely agree that Incenerator needs tweaking. Indirect nerf maybe. Heat mechanics is good and fun but way too OP IMHO.
it should not have such support, DPS and debuff capabilities simultaneously. Only one at a time.

Other problems:
High sustained DPS. It doesn't overheat at all. It means that in a vanguard/incenerator duel vanguard would certainly overheat and would have to hide to cool down.
Aliies don't overheat. Means infinite tech repair and even more sustained damage from other mechs.

Here's the list of tweaks that I sugest:
Turn off heat absorbtion aura when primary weapon fired. Turn it on again after 1 second. Pilot should choose support or DPS. It should also fix the infinite repair problem on Inc/Tech combo.
Change SAARE fire modes.
Low: Remove damage, add heat transfer. Make heat transfer remote i.e. some heat transferred even if projectile didn't hit the target but missed 1 meter.
High: Remove heat transfer. Reduce damage to low's level (80-60)
In order to heat up your enemies you should give up DPS and vice versa.
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#12 Fstroke

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Posted May 18 2014 - 03:29 AM

Valid points indeed. I personally have never experienced many issues with the incinerator but maybe thats bc most people dont use the SAAREs alternated mode to inflict heat on enemies.

To realize its full dps on the alternate mode you really need to be using the ppa. While powerful I find the ppa incinerator to be one of the hardest weapon combos in the game for how you have to micro manage it.

I think the heat gen on enemies could probably be toned down a little.

#13 FakeName

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Posted May 18 2014 - 03:57 AM

View PostFstroke, on May 18 2014 - 03:29 AM, said:

I think the heat gen on enemies could probably be toned down a little.

I don't understand this post, I don't understand this thread.

In the current version, mechs have an INCREDIBLE sustain of heat. People can continously fire their weapons and even take out a Brawler without overheating. In addition, we have this mysterious insta 3-sec-cooldown- feature wich allows mechs to cool down almost instantly.

The heat gen of the Incinerator is a joke. It adds SLIGHTLY abit of heat to enemies and makes SOME problems which is making the enemy UNABLE to fire their weapons FOREVER.

In my opinion, heating needs to be INCREASED by ATLEAST 200% for EVERY mech.  
So SPAMMING across the battlefield is NO LONGER possible.

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#14 Fstroke

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Posted May 18 2014 - 04:38 AM

^ im not a strong believer in that statement. I suppose I should have said I think the heat gen could be reduced and it would not affect the effectiveness of the incinerator. Damage wise I dont think its a problem.

I can almost sense the onslaught of incinerator op threads that the usual bandwagoners jump on though.

#15 Van_Tuz

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Posted May 18 2014 - 04:43 AM

View PostFakeName, on May 18 2014 - 03:57 AM, said:

I don't understand this post, I don't understand this thread.

In the current version, mechs have an INCREDIBLE sustain of heat. People can continously fire their weapons and even take out a Brawler without overheating. In addition, we have this mysterious insta 3-sec-cooldown- feature wich allows mechs to cool down almost instantly.
Correction: assaults have no problems with heat.
Try playing a mech with 6 seconds of cooldown against dodging light mechs.You'll see that it's very easy to overheat and hard to cool down. And there's no magical "coolant injection" button for them.

Edited by Van_Tuz, May 18 2014 - 04:47 AM.

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#16 FakeName

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Posted May 18 2014 - 05:08 AM

View PostVan_Tuz, on May 18 2014 - 04:43 AM, said:

View PostFakeName, on May 18 2014 - 03:57 AM, said:

I don't understand this post, I don't understand this thread.

In the current version, mechs have an INCREDIBLE sustain of heat. People can continously fire their weapons and even take out a Brawler without overheating. In addition, we have this mysterious insta 3-sec-cooldown- feature wich allows mechs to cool down almost instantly.
Correction: assaults have no problems with heat.
Try playing a mech with 6 seconds of cooldown against dodging light mechs.You'll see that it's very easy to overheat and hard to cool down. And there's no magical "coolant injection" button for them.

Are you talking about the zerker? I tried him out myself, have to say pretty easy to use and high rewarding. Additionally this dmg buff is sweet against B and C classes.
However, never overheated.
You wanna know why?
I didn't shoot if I was going to miss my target. Could even take out 2 B classes without overheating. And that's the point. If you overheat because you missed too much of your shots (and you have WAY TOO MUCH shots to miss before you overheat) then it's your own fault. I think no mech should be able to kill a C-class without overheating assuming EVERY shot hits. The C-class should have 10% of his HP left when the opponent mech overheats. So these calsses will become real hard rocks to crack.

But now, a Zerker can easily take out a whole team by just waiting for 4 seconds after each kill for cooldown.

I repeat: overheating is a joke. Especially on burst loadouts (e.g. EOC Infiltrator), you NEVER overheat. IF you still overheat, it is your fault. Either you missed your targets, or you just killed 3 mechs. Take a breath! Look for cover!
Hardly anyone is still hiding behind cover due to their extreme heat sustain.

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#17 jrkong

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Posted May 18 2014 - 05:24 AM

View PostFakeName, on May 18 2014 - 05:08 AM, said:

View PostVan_Tuz, on May 18 2014 - 04:43 AM, said:

View PostFakeName, on May 18 2014 - 03:57 AM, said:

I don't understand this post, I don't understand this thread.

In the current version, mechs have an INCREDIBLE sustain of heat. People can continously fire their weapons and even take out a Brawler without overheating. In addition, we have this mysterious insta 3-sec-cooldown- feature wich allows mechs to cool down almost instantly.
Correction: assaults have no problems with heat.
Try playing a mech with 6 seconds of cooldown against dodging light mechs.You'll see that it's very easy to overheat and hard to cool down. And there's no magical "coolant injection" button for them.

Are you talking about the zerker? I tried him out myself, have to say pretty easy to use and high rewarding. Additionally this dmg buff is sweet against B and C classes.
However, never overheated.
You wanna know why?
I didn't shoot if I was going to miss my target. Could even take out 2 B classes without overheating. And that's the point. If you overheat because you missed too much of your shots (and you have WAY TOO MUCH shots to miss before you overheat) then it's your own fault. I think no mech should be able to kill a C-class without overheating assuming EVERY shot hits. The C-class should have 10% of his HP left when the opponent mech overheats. So these calsses will become real hard rocks to crack.

But now, a Zerker can easily take out a whole team by just waiting for 4 seconds after each kill for cooldown.

I repeat: overheating is a joke. Especially on burst loadouts (e.g. EOC Infiltrator), you NEVER overheat. IF you still overheat, it is your fault. Either you missed your targets, or you just killed 3 mechs. Take a breath! Look for cover!
Hardly anyone is still hiding behind cover due to their extreme heat sustain.

No no. I think he's talking about heavies like Vanguard or Brawler. Overheating against an A mech usually means death in those guys.

View PostVan_Tuz, on May 18 2014 - 12:25 AM, said:

I completely agree that Incenerator needs tweaking. Indirect nerf maybe. Heat mechanics is good and fun but way too OP IMHO.
it should not have such support, DPS and debuff capabilities simultaneously. Only one at a time.

Other problems:
High sustained DPS. It doesn't overheat at all. It means that in a vanguard/incenerator duel vanguard would certainly overheat and would have to hide to cool down.
Aliies don't overheat. Means infinite tech repair and even more sustained damage from other mechs.

Here's the list of tweaks that I sugest:
Turn off heat absorbtion aura when primary weapon fired. Turn it on again after 1 second. Pilot should choose support or DPS. It should also fix the infinite repair problem on Inc/Tech combo.
Change SAARE fire modes.
Low: Remove damage, add heat transfer. Make heat transfer remote i.e. some heat transferred even if projectile didn't hit the target but missed 1 meter.
High: Remove heat transfer. Reduce damage to low's level (80-60)
I like the idea but funny you should mention the damage there since that's the SAARE's current damage...

#18 ThirdEyE

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Posted May 18 2014 - 10:34 AM

View PostFakeName, on May 18 2014 - 03:57 AM, said:

The heat gen of the Incinerator is a joke. It adds SLIGHTLY abit of heat to enemies and makes SOME problems which is making the enemy UNABLE to fire their weapons FOREVER.

It's much more significant than you think.  Check out Fury's video from this thread to see just how much heat the SAARE generates even without the mama bear.

View PostFakeName, on May 18 2014 - 03:57 AM, said:

I think no mech should be able to kill a C-class without overheating assuming EVERY shot hits. The C-class should have 10% of his HP left when the opponent mech overheats. So these calsses will become real hard rocks to crack.

That's a joke, right?  C class durability is already through the roof, pretty much the last thing they need is a buff to that.

Back on topic, if these features aren't going to be removed or significantly nerfed, then the Incin should be in a hard support role with heat being the focus of the mech.  This would mean nerfing its damage substantially, and probably its health as well, so that it doesn't fill multiple roles simultaneously.
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#19 jrkong

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Posted May 18 2014 - 10:51 AM

View PostThirdEyE, on May 18 2014 - 10:34 AM, said:

Back on topic, if these features aren't going to be removed or significantly nerfed, then the Incin should be in a hard support role with heat being the focus of the mech.  This would mean nerfing its damage substantially, and probably its health as well, so that it doesn't fill multiple roles simultaneously.
TBH I think the heat generation on the secondary SAARE mainly exists for the M4MA.

If they were removing the heat generation on SAARE they should also remove the heat siphoning off of enemies. As long as there's some sort of balance there as well I'm fine with it since enemies shouldn't reap benefits off of an enemy mech.

As for changing the Incinerator to a hard support mech with your changes, if they were doing it that way then they'll have to give heat generation to the bullets of all the miniguns and possibly buff the heat generation the SAARE does.

#20 ScarletThirteen

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Posted May 18 2014 - 10:55 AM

View Postjrkong, on May 18 2014 - 10:51 AM, said:

As for changing the Incinerator to a hard support mech with your changes, if they were doing it that way then they'll have to give heat generation to the bullets of all the miniguns and possibly buff the heat generation the SAARE does.

If the Incin ever gets forced into a hard support role, I would probably be okay with the weapon mechanics being changed.
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