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A Question of How Weapons are being Balanced


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#1 AsianJoyKiller

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Posted December 22 2012 - 08:33 PM

So this is an idea that has been thrown around in the SK Mumble a few times now, and I have to ask this question because it feels like it has merit.

Adhesive,
Are you balancing weapons so that they can remain on certain classes?
For instance, is/has the Vulcan recieved the nerfs/buffs it has because you're trying to keep it on Assault/CR-T and the Beserker? Did the HEAT get changed so it can stay on Scout?

Are weapons being balanced in a sub-optimal manner for the sake of "variety" and keeping them balanced on classes they otherwise shouldn't be on?

I understand you want to keep Lvl. 25 prestige weaponry, and want to have more weapon variety.
But nerfing/buffing weapons to be viable on a class they can't really be balanced on is a bad idea as it ruins or makes weapons under/overpowered on classes they do belong on.

Edited by AsianJoyKiller, December 22 2012 - 08:34 PM.

[HWK]HUGHES, on July 03 2013 - 11:07 PM, said:

AJK is right

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#2 Necro

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Posted December 22 2012 - 08:44 PM

View PostAsianJoyKiller, on December 22 2012 - 08:33 PM, said:

But nerfing/buffing weapons to be viable on a class they can't really be balanced on is a bad idea as it ruins or makes weapons under/overpowered on classes they do belong on.

I've made this point before. It's one of the biggest flaws of this game.

To compare it to wow, it's like giving every class stealth and then trying to balance it.

#3 Timber_Wolf

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Posted December 22 2012 - 08:47 PM

Yeah, it makes the bruiser pretty meh, as a result.
Having the vulcan outside of C class mechs and mechs that need it to be viable (the bruiser) means it's going to be much weaker than it should.  Same thing with the flak cannon.
I'd rather just not see it on the Berserker/CRT/Assault and leave it on the mechs it belongs on.

EDIT:  Hopefully more weapon variety will change this, however.

Edited by Timber_Wolf, December 22 2012 - 08:48 PM.

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#4 Aelieth

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Posted December 22 2012 - 08:50 PM

Would like to echo AJK's question.
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#5 BeelzeBuff

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Posted December 22 2012 - 08:52 PM

Interesting topic

will be paying attention to another good question by AJK

#6 h0B0

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Posted December 22 2012 - 08:56 PM

im hoping we get an answer.

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View Post[HWK]HUGHES, on March 15 2013 - 08:35 PM, said:

Oh don't always listen to h0B0. Lol.


#7 Gherid_lacksGPS

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Posted December 22 2012 - 09:16 PM

I've wondered about this too, but I'm inderfferent on its effectiveness and am just seeing how it plays out. I can see multiple contrasting arguments, supporting various directions of balance.

Edited by Gherid_lacksGPS, December 22 2012 - 09:20 PM.

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#8 Guiotine

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Posted December 22 2012 - 09:36 PM

AJK, I am in no way disputing your post, but just for the sake of academic curiosity, what makes you say the Vulcan doesn't belong on the Assault, but does on the Bruiser. (for example) Is it because of the different secondaries? because they both get the same primary loadout at level 25. Is it because the Bruiser with the Vulcan and Hellfires functions better in the Vulcan's range then the Assault does with the TOW? What makes you determine which guns don't belong on a mech? I apologize if I made a stupid question, I am just trying to learn a little more about the game and the community's thoughts on it. Vulcan/Bruiser/Assault was an example, but one applicable to all such weapons.

Edited by Guiotine, December 22 2012 - 09:36 PM.

ReachH said:

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View PostAsianJoyKiller, on July 02 2013 - 03:18 PM, said:

This wall of text gets the AJK Seal of Approval.

#9 Decoy101x

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Posted December 22 2012 - 09:42 PM

i'd like to see some diff secondaries other than tow/grenade/hellfire
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#10 Guiotine

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Posted December 22 2012 - 09:44 PM

View PostDecoy101x, on December 22 2012 - 09:42 PM, said:

i'd like to see some diff secondaries other than tow/grenade/hellfire

Agreed, but I'm sure more will come with time. If there were more, I would like the ability to have multiple secondaries I can switch between for my mechs

edit: on second thought, that would make buying mechs useless, as you would be able to essentially create the mech you want for some. (i.e. turn Fred into the Bruiser by giving him the chassis and Hellfires) Disregard the scratched out part.

Edited by Guiotine, December 22 2012 - 09:46 PM.

ReachH said:

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View PostAsianJoyKiller, on July 02 2013 - 03:18 PM, said:

This wall of text gets the AJK Seal of Approval.

#11 FuryMonster

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Posted December 22 2012 - 09:48 PM

View PostNecro, on December 22 2012 - 08:44 PM, said:

View PostAsianJoyKiller, on December 22 2012 - 08:33 PM, said:

But nerfing/buffing weapons to be viable on a class they can't really be balanced on is a bad idea as it ruins or makes weapons under/overpowered on classes they do belong on.

I've made this point before. It's one of the biggest flaws of this game.

To compare it to wow, it's like giving every class stealth and then trying to balance it.

completly agree, you need to balance guns on a mech by mech basis and it really could be balanced within a few weeks of intense testing by a few individuals i dont see why they're having so many problems with this issue
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#12 AsianJoyKiller

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Posted December 22 2012 - 09:56 PM

View PostGuiotine, on December 22 2012 - 09:36 PM, said:

AJK, I am in no way disputing your post, but just for the sake of academic curiosity, what makes you say the Vulcan doesn't belong on the Assault, but does on the Bruiser. (for example) Is it because of the different secondaries? because they both get the same primary loadout at level 25. Is it because the Bruiser with the Vulcan and Hellfires functions better in the Vulcan's range then the Assault does with the TOW? What makes you determine which guns don't belong on a mech? I apologize if I made a stupid question, I am just trying to learn a little more about the game and the community's thoughts on it. Vulcan/Bruiser/Assault was an example, but one applicable to all such weapons.
Imagine a magical time when the Vulcan was perfectly balanced for Bruiser and C-Classes. Imagine I played during that time.

Then much to my surprise, the Vulcan showed up on Beserker and Assault and it was completely absurd CBE1.
On the Beserker, it was absurd because that much sustained DPS became a problem when it was on a A-Class that was very hard/impossible to outmanuever and on the Assault it was absurd because the Heat Coolant ability meant you could tear through a entire team without ever letting off the trigger. Then during CBE2 I complained about the absurdness of this, and had one of the developers tell me that the Vulcan was no longer supposed to be on the assault, and yet, there it was.
And then, because it was still absurd, during CBE3 the Vulcan got nerfed to hell.

And yes, different secondaries, or even abilities and weight class has everything to do with the balance of primaries.
A high-damage, high-heat Vulcan is balanced on a Bruiser because it has a secondary of limited usefulness, or on a Brawler because of limited mobility and neither has the ability to suddenly increase it's DPS by 15% or remove all the built up heat.
The CBE3 HEAT was almost perfectly balanced, and it didn't need a damage nerf (the community suggested other methods, superior methods of ways to balance it), but it was problematic mostly because a HEAT Scout could unload ungodly amounts of burst damage.

Edited by AsianJoyKiller, December 22 2012 - 09:56 PM.

[HWK]HUGHES, on July 03 2013 - 11:07 PM, said:

AJK is right

The Sinful Infil HEAT Cannon Hustler, Cloaking and Smoking, C-Class Swagger, Ballin' n' Brawlin'


#13 Elektrey

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Posted December 22 2012 - 09:56 PM

Maybe split up the weapons into 2 weapons and tune each of them to a certain mech.
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#14 ReachH

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Posted December 22 2012 - 09:56 PM

I think its worth noting that they probably have more prototype weapons they haven't shown. This based on the seeker that they introduced for the rocketeer, and the prestige place holder currently on the SS. Of course the Alphas might know more, but are sworn to secrecy :P

I too would also like to hear more about what their thoughts are.

View Post[HWK]HUGHES, on October 23 2013 - 06:01 PM, said:

Development happens.


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#15 Timber_Wolf

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Posted December 22 2012 - 09:58 PM

View PostGuiotine, on December 22 2012 - 09:36 PM, said:

AJK, I am in no way disputing your post, but just for the sake of academic curiosity, what makes you say the Vulcan doesn't belong on the Assault, but does on the Bruiser. (for example) Is it because of the different secondaries? because they both get the same primary loadout at level 25. Is it because the Bruiser with the Vulcan and Hellfires functions better in the Vulcan's range then the Assault does with the TOW? What makes you determine which guns don't belong on a mech? I apologize if I made a stupid question, I am just trying to learn a little more about the game and the community's thoughts on it. Vulcan/Bruiser/Assault was an example, but one applicable to all such weapons.

It's mostly to do with the abilities and the alternate weapons.
Close range hellfire vs. close range TOW, for example.  One of those is way better than the other.
Mid range, they're comparable (mostly), and long range Hellfire is better.

Assault rifle is good all ranges and has pretty good DPS, the vulcan is only good at close range and produces higher heat.
The AR is a pretty universal weapon that, if properly balanced, can fit on most mechs and make sense.  The vulcan, on the other hand, belongs on bigger, beefier mechs for balance reasons, and mechs that need it at close range without breaking their playstyle (giving it to the sharpshooter to compensate would be silly, obviously.)

The CRT/Assault can mitigate a huge penalty of the vulcan (the heat), and are designed to be a mid range mech.  The berserker is imba with it (or would be, and was in previous events) because of its speed and ability to close distance.
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#16 Timber_Wolf

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Posted December 22 2012 - 10:00 PM

View PostElektrey, on December 22 2012 - 09:56 PM, said:

Maybe split up the weapons into 2 weapons and tune each of them to a certain mech.

This is something I'm okay with, and have said since CBE1.  Scaled down/up versions of weapons.
Much like the mini-flak vs. flak.
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#17 w01fe

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Posted December 22 2012 - 10:20 PM

simple way to do it is make each one a "variant"

assault rifle A class variant

assault rifle B class variant

assault rifle C class variant

and adjust the stats accordingly.  boom, there ya go.  for instance a C class flak could have extremely high damage but low rof and high heat

#18 Guiotine

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Posted December 22 2012 - 10:56 PM

ah, forgot to factor in abilities. Yeah, that makes a lot more sense now, especially considering the Vulcan specifically.

View PostAsianJoyKiller, on December 22 2012 - 09:56 PM, said:

View PostGuiotine, on December 22 2012 - 09:36 PM, said:

AJK, I am in no way disputing your post, but just for the sake of academic curiosity, what makes you say the Vulcan doesn't belong on the Assault, but does on the Bruiser. (for example) Is it because of the different secondaries? because they both get the same primary loadout at level 25. Is it because the Bruiser with the Vulcan and Hellfires functions better in the Vulcan's range then the Assault does with the TOW? What makes you determine which guns don't belong on a mech? I apologize if I made a stupid question, I am just trying to learn a little more about the game and the community's thoughts on it. Vulcan/Bruiser/Assault was an example, but one applicable to all such weapons.
Imagine a magical time when the Vulcan was perfectly balanced for Bruiser and C-Classes. Imagine I played during that time.

Then much to my surprise, the Vulcan showed up on Beserker and Assault and it was completely absurd CBE1.
On the Beserker, it was absurd because that much sustained DPS became a problem when it was on a A-Class that was very hard/impossible to outmanuever and on the Assault it was absurd because the Heat Coolant ability meant you could tear through a entire team without ever letting off the trigger. Then during CBE2 I complained about the absurdness of this, and had one of the developers tell me that the Vulcan was no longer supposed to be on the assault, and yet, there it was.
And then, because it was still absurd, during CBE3 the Vulcan got nerfed to hell.

And yes, different secondaries, or even abilities and weight class has everything to do with the balance of primaries.
A high-damage, high-heat Vulcan is balanced on a Bruiser because it has a secondary of limited usefulness, or on a Brawler because of limited mobility and neither has the ability to suddenly increase it's DPS by 15% or remove all the built up heat.
The CBE3 HEAT was almost perfectly balanced, and it didn't need a damage nerf (the community suggested other methods, superior methods of ways to balance it), but it was problematic mostly because a HEAT Scout could unload ungodly amounts of burst damage.

I wish I could have played during this magical time, I love my bruiser, and thanks, I can see your point better now :D

Edited by Guiotine, December 22 2012 - 10:56 PM.

ReachH said:

I dub thee, Guiotine, 'Coloxxen, the mech pokemon'

View PostAsianJoyKiller, on July 02 2013 - 03:18 PM, said:

This wall of text gets the AJK Seal of Approval.

#19 billng

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Posted December 22 2012 - 11:08 PM

Back in the good ol' days when the vulcan was worth using..

#20 AsianJoyKiller

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Posted December 23 2012 - 07:32 AM

View PostGuiotine, on December 22 2012 - 10:56 PM, said:

ah, forgot to factor in abilities. Yeah, that makes a lot more sense now, especially considering the Vulcan specifically.

View PostAsianJoyKiller, on December 22 2012 - 09:56 PM, said:

View PostGuiotine, on December 22 2012 - 09:36 PM, said:

AJK, I am in no way disputing your post, but just for the sake of academic curiosity, what makes you say the Vulcan doesn't belong on the Assault, but does on the Bruiser. (for example) Is it because of the different secondaries? because they both get the same primary loadout at level 25. Is it because the Bruiser with the Vulcan and Hellfires functions better in the Vulcan's range then the Assault does with the TOW? What makes you determine which guns don't belong on a mech? I apologize if I made a stupid question, I am just trying to learn a little more about the game and the community's thoughts on it. Vulcan/Bruiser/Assault was an example, but one applicable to all such weapons.
Imagine a magical time when the Vulcan was perfectly balanced for Bruiser and C-Classes. Imagine I played during that time.

Then much to my surprise, the Vulcan showed up on Beserker and Assault and it was completely absurd CBE1.
On the Beserker, it was absurd because that much sustained DPS became a problem when it was on a A-Class that was very hard/impossible to outmanuever and on the Assault it was absurd because the Heat Coolant ability meant you could tear through a entire team without ever letting off the trigger. Then during CBE2 I complained about the absurdness of this, and had one of the developers tell me that the Vulcan was no longer supposed to be on the assault, and yet, there it was.
And then, because it was still absurd, during CBE3 the Vulcan got nerfed to hell.

And yes, different secondaries, or even abilities and weight class has everything to do with the balance of primaries.
A high-damage, high-heat Vulcan is balanced on a Bruiser because it has a secondary of limited usefulness, or on a Brawler because of limited mobility and neither has the ability to suddenly increase it's DPS by 15% or remove all the built up heat.
The CBE3 HEAT was almost perfectly balanced, and it didn't need a damage nerf (the community suggested other methods, superior methods of ways to balance it), but it was problematic mostly because a HEAT Scout could unload ungodly amounts of burst damage.

I wish I could have played during this magical time, I love my bruiser, and thanks, I can see your point better now :D
Glad I could help.

[HWK]HUGHES, on July 03 2013 - 11:07 PM, said:

AJK is right

The Sinful Infil HEAT Cannon Hustler, Cloaking and Smoking, C-Class Swagger, Ballin' n' Brawlin'





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