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Proposed Hellfire Missile Change


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#1 draco7891

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Posted October 26 2012 - 09:48 PM

Currently, Hellfires suffer from a debilitating lack of DPS owing to a long reload time, the requirement to achieve and maintain a lock, wonky lock-on physics and the method by which the damage is delivered (that is, multiple-warhead style).

Let's look at the current situation, comparing to the other available secondary weapons:

TOW: 185 damage per shot, 0.3 shots per second

Grenade: 170 damage per shot (plus likely additional splash damage), 0.3 shots per second

Hellfire: 240 damage, distributed into 8 sub-rockets (30 damage each), 0.2 shots per second, 2 second lock time.

Right away, it's easy to see a disparity:

TOW: 55.5 DPS

Grenade: 51 DPS

Hellfire: 48 DPS

But, let's consider that the Hellfire is wildly inaccurate without a lock first, and factor in having to reacquire lock-on each shot (5 second reload, 2 second lock-on, becomes an effective ROF of 0.14)

ROF corrected Hellfire: 34.3 DPS

Now let's consider that that damage assumes the entire swarm of submunitions strikes the target. Anyone with Hellfire experience will tell you that that's just not true, not even with a stationary target at medium range and a lock-on. During a pitched fight, you may expect only 2-3 missiles to hit, but let's assume we can get a 50% hit-rate over time.

Damage/ROF corrected Hellfire: 17.1 DPS

This is 31% of the DPS of a TOW missile, and 34% of the DPS of a Grenade Launcher. It is small wonder that light-class mechs with TOWs/Grenade Launchers are the dominant force on the battlefield.

So, how to fix? Simple!

1. Reduce Hellfire shot to a single missile.

  This eliminates the wonky swarm-behavior and loss of DPS due to the swarm wandering off like lost sheep.

2. Reduce Hellfire reload time to 4.5 seconds (0.222 ROF).

  This brings the DPS of the Hellfires right into the middle of the field, between the fast-but-line-of-sight TOW, and the versatile-splash damage Grenade. (53.3 DPS)

3. Allow Hellfires to maintain lock-on throughout reload.

  Visual contact should be required to maintain the lock (ie, the big red box). Either visual contact by the launching player, or a fellow friendly mech, once the launcher has established the lock (a bit of teamwork never hurt anyone). This allows more easy remote/ballistic firing with the Hellfire.

This eliminates the loss of DPS in requiring the lock after every volley, keeping the DPS commensurate with the other options.

Things to maintain:

1. The wild inaccuracy when hip-firing. The Hellfire should remain distinct from the TOW, not just a TOW-with-easy-button-lock-on.

2. The speed (or lack thereof) of the missile itself. The Hellfire should again, remain distinct as a weapon against the TOW. The Hellfire has the advantage of a lock-on, and so also has the disadvantage of a easily-dodgeable projectile.

3. The lack of splash damage. To remain distinct against the Grenade. (not a serious issue from my experience, but there it is).

4. The lack of mid-flight detonation. Distinction. It should require a direct hit, as opposed to the other weapons which have considered splash damage.

Thoughts?

Draco

Edited by draco7891, October 26 2012 - 09:58 PM.


#2 Anoka

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Posted October 26 2012 - 09:58 PM

I have nothing to add other than I agree with draco.

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#3 Immie

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Posted October 26 2012 - 10:11 PM

Just want to point out: The Hellfire's reload is already 4.5 seconds. All other secondaries have a 5 second reload time. Sure, locking on adds to this, but I'm just setting the facts straight. While I'm at that: The TOW does 225 damage, the GL 245, the Sabot 185, and you got the number right for hellfires (240). :P


All that said, I do agree that hellfires are the weakest of the secondary weapons. They are not good in close quarters, since they can't home in effectively, are spread too much, and have a small splash, and they are not very good against anyone else who is paying attention, because they're not very hard to dodge.


If I was to suggest a buff, I would improve the homing factor significantly, so you had to get behind cover to completely dodge them, and maybe even a simple little damage boost, +1 damage per missile for a new total of 248 per volley.

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#4 draco7891

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Posted October 26 2012 - 10:33 PM

View PostImmie, on October 26 2012 - 10:11 PM, said:

Just want to point out: The Hellfire's reload is already 4.5 seconds. All other secondaries have a 5 second reload time. Sure, locking on adds to this, but I'm just setting the facts straight. While I'm at that: The TOW does 225 damage, the GL 245, the Sabot 185, and you got the number right for hellfires (240). :P

Where did you get those values from (if they're from that place where we can't talk about, then they're wrong. They've changed.)? I pulled mine from the Garage stat tooltips (as I don't think we still have access to the weapon .ini's anymore). Empirical testing just now netted a ~3 second reload for the Grenade and TOW, and a ~4.75 second time for the Hellfires, which meshes with the ROF data in the Garage, excusing my human timing errors (the animations are still ~5 seconds long, but you can fire before they complete).

Draco

#5 IceTonic

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Posted October 26 2012 - 10:53 PM

I personally think if Hellfires had a few tweaks I'd be perfectly happy to stick with Heavy mechs. A togglable lock-on would be lovely, I see no point in having it time-limited, I'd be fine if it was canceled if you used your primary weapon before there was any update/lock-on attempt from the utility. I agree that it should also be maintained though, it gets slightly annoying having to re-lock after every shot. Throw in a shorter reload or improved homing/damage and I'd be a very happy camper Rocketeer.

#6 EMEUTIER

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Posted October 28 2012 - 01:38 AM

I would really love the hellfire's to keep the multi-missle swarm effect.
The constant need to keep locking on to a target gets annoying, maybe keep the lock on the same target unless the target goes too far from your reticule.
Maybe just a damage or reload buff really is what I would like.

Just my personal opinion.
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#7 Immie

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Posted October 28 2012 - 01:45 AM

View Postdraco7891, on October 26 2012 - 10:33 PM, said:

Where did you get those values from...
The .ini files are still available and accurate.

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#8 Jagdwyre

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Posted October 28 2012 - 03:24 AM

View PostEMEUTIER, on October 28 2012 - 01:38 AM, said:

I would really love the hellfire's to keep the multi-missle swarm effect.
The constant need to keep locking on to a target gets annoying, maybe keep the lock on the same target unless the target goes too far from your reticule.
Maybe just a damage or reload buff really is what I would like.

Just my personal opinion.
Yeah, I'm a fan of the Hellfire's missile swarm. And I like the idea of sticky targeting on the enemy mech you've already manually locked on to.

#9 p4g3m4s7r

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Posted October 28 2012 - 06:40 PM

View PostEMEUTIER, on October 28 2012 - 01:38 AM, said:

I would really love the hellfire's to keep the multi-missle swarm effect.
The constant need to keep locking on to a target gets annoying, maybe keep the lock on the same target unless the target goes too far from your reticule.
Maybe just a damage or reload buff really is what I would like.

Just my personal opinion.

I say make the lock stick until you're turned 135 degrees away or cannot see them on your radar anymore. Also, faster lock-on speed. Definitely agree that these are way too weak, though.

As is, if I ever get a lock on I just juke behind the nearest object. 90% of the time I take no damage. Any loss of lock due to object getting in the way is a problem, as well. These seemed targeted at really hurting the faster classes, since it does lower damage but is supposedly more consistent. However, faster classes break your lock much more easily by juking behind cover quickly. This could be negated by a faster lock-on and more stable locking capabilities.

#10 draco7891

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Posted October 28 2012 - 09:07 PM

View PostImmie, on October 28 2012 - 01:45 AM, said:

The .ini files are still available and accurate.

I swear sometimes I am so blonde. Curse UE3 for putting config files in two different locations. *shake fist angrily*

Using the .ini values:

TOW: 45 DPS

Grenade: 49 DPS

Hellfire: 53.33 DPS

And, corrected (50% hit rate, 2 second lock-on added):

ROF/Damage corrected Hellfire: 18.4 DPS

I believe the point still stands, the Hellfires need a change to bring them in-line with the other special weapons effectiveness.

---

But wait, there's more! Empirical testing, activate!

With no ROF mods/optimizations on stock mechs, in volleys of 10 shots (timed from first shot fired to last shot fired):

TOW: 36 seconds

Grenade: 27 seconds

Hellfire: 40 seconds

Leading to shot times of:

TOW: 3.6 seconds

Grenade: 2.7 seconds

Hellfire: 4 seconds

And DPS/corrected DPS (using .ini damage values):

TOW: 62.5 DPS

Grenade: 90.7 DPS

Hellfire: 60 DPS

ROF/Damage corrected Hellfire: 20 DPS

Point still stands, Hellfires need help. Also, no wonder those bunny-loving Infiltrators with Grenade Launchers do so much damage...

.ini values are defaults, but no one said defaults have to actually go into effect... ;)

Draco




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