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Weapon Overheating, and why it's innacurate


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Poll: Which of these do you prefer in this discussion? (413 member(s) have cast votes)

Which of these do you prefer in this discussion?

  1. Weapon Overheating (284 votes [71.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 71.00%

  2. Weapon Reloading (75 votes [18.75%])

    Percentage of vote: 18.75%

  3. Neither. Let me fire my guns near infinitely (30 votes [7.50%])

    Percentage of vote: 7.50%

  4. Other (Please specify in your post) (11 votes [2.75%])

    Percentage of vote: 2.75%

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#1 Envy661

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Posted August 23 2011 - 12:35 AM

Essentially, Modern and Futuristic games, unless taking place in an alternate reality where normal physics cease to exist (Like the Mushroom Kingdom), weapon overheating should not particularly take place unless accompanied by MASSIVE weapon overuse, such as Firing a 50 Calibur Machine Gun 60,000 times continuously, and even that estimate may be low.
While the system is essentially in place to replace generalized reloading, it isn't the best solution. It's really a call to realism. Would you like a gun that performs a reload animation (realistic) or would you like a gun that overheats (Only realistic in games pre-dating the 1990s)?

Please note this method contributes whether the gun is infinite ammo or not.

Post your side of the argument.
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#2 SixEcho

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Posted August 25 2011 - 07:52 AM

I think overheating works here only because we, in most mech games, have had to deal both with ammo restrictions and overheating which determines a consistent rate of fire necessary to avoid overheating over extended combat whereas a reloading mechanic allows you to fire autonomously whether full auto or single as long as you have rounds in the clip.

Its really a difference in combat, overheating promotes slower more methodical gameplay so you don't get caught overheating whereas a reloading mechanic promotes quicker more intense bursts of combat as people all hide reload and get ready for the next fight.

#3 JackDandy

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Posted August 26 2011 - 03:26 PM

The over heating is necessary to keep the "mech" flavor of the game.

I wouldn't want this to turn into a pure FPS with a fancy robot models.

#4 Chrome_Enigma

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Posted August 29 2011 - 09:18 AM

I like the idea of it being weapon specific. Projectile weapons like sniper rifles and machine guns would require reloading, because you would only be able to carry a finite amount of ammo. Energy weapons like plasma rifles and such would overheat, because it feeds off your mechs power supply giving you a near limitless supply of ammo (and presumably produces more heat than a standard round)

#5 SixEcho

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Posted August 29 2011 - 11:42 AM

Chrome_Enigma said:

I like the idea of it being weapon specific. Projectile weapons like sniper rifles and machine guns would require reloading, because you would only be able to carry a finite amount of ammo. Energy weapons like plasma rifles and such would overheat, because it feeds off your mechs power supply giving you a near limitless supply of ammo (and presumably produces more heat than a standard round)

I fail to see why these weapons that are so obviously are attached to the inner workings of the mecha itself are not directly fed ammunition from the total reserve? By that logic it wouldn't ever need to reload if your entire ammo store is directly fed to the weapon. Also why wouldn't "energy" based weapons like your talking about have an on-board power source? It makes more sense to me when talking about customization if the weapons supply their own needs and only require mounting.

#6 Crow

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Posted August 29 2011 - 01:38 PM

TheDubstepDisciple said:

Chrome_Enigma said:

I like the idea of it being weapon specific. Projectile weapons like sniper rifles and machine guns would require reloading, because you would only be able to carry a finite amount of ammo. Energy weapons like plasma rifles and such would overheat, because it feeds off your mechs power supply giving you a near limitless supply of ammo (and presumably produces more heat than a standard round)

I fail to see why these weapons that are so obviously are attached to the inner workings of the mecha itself are not directly fed ammunition from the total reserve? By that logic it wouldn't ever need to reload if your entire ammo store is directly fed to the weapon. Also why wouldn't "energy" based weapons like your talking about have an on-board power source? It makes more sense to me when talking about customization if the weapons supply their own needs and only require mounting.
I was wondering the exact same question....
Thought I had gone mad or something...

#7 Flyingdebris

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Posted August 31 2011 - 01:08 PM

I fail to see how overheating doesn't make sense.

A weapon's ability to get hot to the point where it needs to cool off is entirely dependent on the machine's ability to cool the weapon (via air cooling, liquid cooling, heatsinks, whatever), and what kind and how much propellant is being used within said weapon to launch the projectile, magnified by fire rate.

For example, the A10 warthog only fires its Gau 8 in up to 2-3 second bursts, anything longer will overheat the weapon

Something like a 50cal, sure, it doesn't overheat easily.  But there aren't really classic 50s in hawken.  For all we know the rounds coming out of these guns might be running hotter loads for their ammo in order to get the higher muzzle velocities necessary to penetrate enemy armor.

Also, i seriously doubt you can fire an m2 50 60,000 times continuously without a break.  The number more likely refers to how often you can fire the gun before needing maintenance.  Because the high heat levels that the gun will eventually reach will start to warp the metal, affecting accuracy, or worse, leading to breakdowns as the internals in the chamber start to fail under the intense heat.
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#8 DrTemptragon

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Posted September 01 2011 - 06:40 AM

I'm with the guy above me. In fact, if anything, overheating is going to be more and more of a problem as armour gets better. Better armour means hotter rounds if you want to keep the caliber reasonable and hotter rounds means more cooling issues. Add to that the fact that there's a physical limit to how much heat you can disappate in a set amount of time, and heat starts to become a really serious issue.

EDIT: Actually, thinking about it, reloading makes less sense that overheating. Most large weapons have a very, very large magazine to draw from, especially if they're the machine gun style weapons we've mainly seen so far. Very large cannons may have a one-round mag, but that animation is more of a refresh between firing than reloading a magazine.

#9 VGC_Gravitas

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Posted September 01 2011 - 08:23 AM

Heat management definitely should concern a Mech shooter, I think.

Overheating mechanic will help balance the weapons/mechs, along with adjustments to rate of fire.  It's the rate of fire that will simulate the 'reloading' aspect, though from old mech type games, the weapon is usually pulling from an ammo location and there's not a separate 'reload'.  Again its all in the rate of fire and just assumed that loading the ammo into the fire chamber is part of the deal.
Apparently, some sort of transposition has taken place. I find it... extremely interesting.

#10 Guru_Zeb

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Posted September 01 2011 - 10:15 AM

Flyingdebris said:

For example, the A10 warthog only fires its Gau 8 in up to 2-3 second bursts, anything longer will overheat the weapon

Actually thats factually inaccurate m8  ;)  A fallacy put about due to many people misunderstanding the 2 sec burst protocol used my A10 pilots, and a lot of unfortunate internet hearsay  :roll:
A A10's Gau 8 Avenger can quite comfortable expend all its ammo in one burts ( only 10 secs ). Without incident. A10 pilots are taught to fire in 2 sec bursts to PRIMARILY to prolong the life of the barrels, to conserve ammunition, and maintain accuracy.
What overheating means in terms of a Gau 8 is a slight lose of accuracy due to the barrels deforming slightly due to high temperature, it does not prevent the weapon system from operating.
Any even half accurate source on the A10's Gau 8 will explain this.

Quote

There is no technical limitation on the duration the gun may be continuously fired, and a pilot could potentially expend the entire ammunition load in a single burst with no damage or ill effects to the weapons system itself. However, this constant rate of fire would shorten the barrel life considerably and require added barrel inspections and result in shorter intervals between replacement.
http://en.wikipedia....i/GAU-8_Avenger

However for me weapon overheating is still a valid and useful gameplay element. It balances gameplay nicely, in that the penalty for excessive weapon spamming is to be rendered temporarily without offence. Its just not at all reflected by actual modern weapons technology reality.
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#11 Flyingdebris

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Posted September 01 2011 - 11:43 AM

i stand corrected then

still though, it does show that heat is a valid factor, just in the case of the a10, not a major one if ammo goes dry before heat becomes a problem.
Mech time all the time

#12 FirstSgtDan

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Posted September 19 2012 - 05:39 PM

Mechs shouldn't need to reload any weapons, their weapons are integrated into their hull already (exceptions may apply)... But They surely need to resupply the ammo at some point, and THAT could take some time.
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#13 Bewitched

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Posted September 19 2012 - 05:56 PM

Heat management makes more sense for a mech game than reloading. I don't see a mech having to reload ammunition like a person would unless it was using some sort of hopper feed system like on a Bofors 40mm.

Any weapon that fires quickly enough, has rounds that are hot enough or fired often enough generates considerable heat. The fixed machine guns in WWI surrounded their barrels with water jackets to keep them cool. The MG42 needed an interchangeable barrel system because of that-the barrels got that hot after sustained rapid fire at rates up to 1200 rounds per minute. Hell, most modern rifles have a barrel shroud of some description not just because you need a surface to grip up front but because barrels and gas blocks and what have you get hot, and if you like your hands you really shouldn't be touching them.
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#14 Immie

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Posted September 19 2012 - 07:40 PM

Why not both? If you've got a chaingun and a massive battle rifle, one with heat management, the other with magazines and reloading, surely it would be possible to balance them with DPS, wind-up time, reload times, heat/cool-down speed, etc. From there, a player can pick what works best for them.

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#15 SmaCkexe

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Posted September 19 2012 - 07:44 PM

I have played the game extensively ... and I can honestly say that the overheating works just fine.  I know you seem to think it is inaccurate but this game is not a simulator.  If you are looking for a simulator id suggest that you go crawl your way through MWO were the game play is centered around simulation.  Hawken is based in its own world and its  own reality.   I was so very pleasantly surprised by how well the overheating works in this game.
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#16 Ohgodtherats

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Posted September 20 2012 - 09:37 PM

Plenty of modern weapon systems overheat. For instance the M-60 will over heat if fired in full auto for an extended period (in the order of minutes) and, at least 10 years ago, 60 gunners carried around a spare barrel and a fancy oven milt to the get the bastard off. The only reason the A-10's system doesn't overheat as such is because the airframe can't physically carry enough ammunition to supply the bajillion rounds a minute fire rate. I would bet good money that if you could cram enough ammo in it to sustain a steady fire rate over a minutes time it would rip itself to pieces. The biggest problem with naval rail-guns these days isn't so much power consumption as it is the fact that barrels can only stand the stress of of 3 or 4 shot before the are too stressed from heat and pressure to function. Lasers shouldn't overheat really, unless they are crazy inefficient (also you shouldn't see them either) but something like a directed plasma weapon would generate insane heat levels even using something like a ceramic muzzle.


All that aside, it's sort of a big mech genera staple too.

Oh and for a good time look up the Navies current rail-gun development. Good stuff!

Edited by Ohgodtherats, September 20 2012 - 09:40 PM.


#17 ModnarSarhp

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Posted September 20 2012 - 09:45 PM

All guns will need an overheat bar, but I believe that anything that requires conventional ammunition should have a limited supply. All fully automatic weapons are generally chain-fed, so a reload is not required, for cannons with larger ammunition, a reload should probably be implemented. As far as energy weapons, all batteries eventually run out, but by that logic, mechs would need a gas meter or something similar, and a fight should be short enough to make that negligible. All missle/rocket type weapons should have limited ammunition, and no way to refill unless there is a dock somewhere to do so, or you respawn. These are features that I believe will make the game more realistic, feel free to disagree.

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#18 DDemon

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Posted September 21 2012 - 12:38 AM

Maybe a combination system is best. Weapons that look like they should generate alot of heat like some sort of rapid fire plasma cannon should overheat and a standard munition gun should only if it is used continually for a long time. Then there should be weapons that need reloading if your Mech can carry extra ammo somewhere otherwise they go till they run out..... as realistic as can be?

#19 Phobotech

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Posted September 22 2012 - 11:18 AM

Consider the machine we're talking about here...without hands, what would be the point of physically seeing a reload animation in the first-person, out from the cockpit perspective? If there were reloading taking place, it would be outside of our field of vision, as some internal mechanism swaps out an empty magazine with a fully loaded one, loads the first round into the chamber, and off we go.

Army future combat systems created an unmanned, remotely operated artillery turret. None of the reloading process is seen from the outside, and upon seeing the process in real-time, it makes sense.

As for weapon overheating, consider the tremendous amount of heat involved in the caliber of these mech-specific munitions. A .50 cal is one thing, but what's essentially a rapid-firing light tank round makes a huge difference in my opinion. As long as the overheating mechanic is used reasonably, and doesn't impede on the frantic, heart-pumping pace of the game, I'm all for it.
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#20 Nitris

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Posted September 22 2012 - 12:53 PM

We don't know what material(s) the armour on these mechs is composed of, nor the calibre of the bullets we are firing.

Its well known that thicker/tougher armour requires more force to punch through, and that in order to get "more punch" from a firearm, it usually needs to fire a larger and/or faster round, which will require more propellant, which in turn produces more heat.

Though some may say the guns overheat "too fast" I'm sure its fairly negatable with the upgrade systems we have been shown.
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