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A classes becoming obsolete?


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#1 Skitzo1d

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Posted April 23 2014 - 09:29 AM

Are A class mechs becoming less and less viable specially in heavy oriented team game matches.  Since C's are getting more and more stuff to beable to out due an a class 1vs1? Dont even start in with the total imbalance of tech plus incen or really any heavy.

Just wondering if in top tier gaming if A classes really arent too valuable to the team?

I really hate to see it if it is true cause i love the scout and inf so far, so I hope I'm just reading into things as I read things on the boards and my current playing against heavies who have a good team around them.

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#2 Estif

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Posted April 23 2014 - 09:58 AM

I think A classes are going to be viable and still deadly, this slight buff to the Class C  and the nerf to the Berserker and Assault are in my humble opinion a good try to reach a better balance and fix some unfair conditions of the whole class C (I insist is not that big the armor and speed increase though) Even when at higer skill matches, C´s tend to be kings due to better teamplay and good tech work (Take a look at BSB videos) for regular matches, (1700-1900 mmr...the vast majority of Hawken activity) Class A are still,  easily wiping any C or B because the speed. I think -as always- a lot of "thisgameisdeadimoutlol" threads are going to be created, but a lot of pilots will be happy with the change of direction, I think is not about punish a single class, but open more gameplay options, if you refuse to try another class, and,  instead, you prefeer to complain and thinking the game is going to be horrible for your scout, you´re not understanding the point of this patch.

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#3 Duralumi

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Posted April 23 2014 - 10:20 AM

A-classes are valued as harassers, assassins and scouts.

I don't play scrims. But I'd imagine that many teams have at least one A-class or something to try and take care of the enemy team's inevitable Technician.

Although if C-classes keep receiving buffs, A-classes will need some love too.

Reduce the boost>fire delay.

Edited by Duralumi, April 23 2014 - 10:36 AM.

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#4 EliteShooter

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Posted April 23 2014 - 10:26 AM

Yes, they are, and C is becoming even more EFFORTLESS to play.


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#5 Duralumi

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Posted April 23 2014 - 10:39 AM

View PostEliteShooter, on April 23 2014 - 10:26 AM, said:

Yes, they are, and C is becoming even more EFFORTLESS to play.


that big font size can u not pls k thx

C-Classes require more effort to play than A-classes because you have to consciously consider positioning a helluva lot more as you don't have the luxury of rapid repositioning.
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#6 grandreaper

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Posted April 23 2014 - 10:46 AM

"A" class works best as finishers and quick dps/ambush, maybe "C" classes are getting buffed and will be more frequent on the Battlefield, but "A" classes will never lose their appeal. A, B and C classes are all needed in a team to have proper balance IMO

#7 EliteShooter

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Posted April 23 2014 - 10:51 AM

You will all see when patch hits ...













ok you won't see anything cuz ya all play against pubs, so you won't notice anything ... whatever, this is a lost case case I'm defending ...

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#8 nokari

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Posted April 23 2014 - 10:51 AM

In higher tier play A-classes I think really have shifted to being harassers and opportunists. I find myself having to pick and choose when to get my feet wet and can't solo flank as much, because all it takes is 1-2 Bs or Cs to turn and I'm dead in 2 seconds. I definitely keep my distance more often.

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#9 OmegaNull

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Posted April 23 2014 - 10:52 AM

Movement is still king. Let them come. Let them get buffed. Let me tear them down.

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#10 EliteShooter

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Posted April 23 2014 - 11:05 AM

View PostOmegaNull, on April 23 2014 - 10:52 AM, said:

Movement is still king. Let them come. Let them get buffed. Let me tear them down.

Not all of us are as skilled as you are ...

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#11 ropefish

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Posted April 23 2014 - 11:12 AM

i think that i will have to wait to see if the new patch is good or bad, just reading some numbers from info cant give you the whole scope. you have to try it first so who knows...

and elite what happened to you......you're being mean :c
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You don't nuke Ropefish : ROPEFISH NUKES YOU!

#12 OmegaNull

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Posted April 23 2014 - 11:35 AM

>.> Then learn C my brothers. Learn well and conquer.

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#13 ticklemyiguana

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Posted April 23 2014 - 12:12 PM

Oh my goodness no. A classes are difficult to play, so if you, your team, and your opponents aren't good at them, certainly they'll be obsolete. That being said, all of my >20 streaks, quadrakills and whatnot are done in A class mechs. B and C simply don't have the mobility to be effective trackers, hunters and killers. And they certainly have a harder time getting away from enemy fire.

In more competitive team play A classes are even more vital for flanking and disorienting your enemies. Mechs like the infiltrator and heatscout have tremendous firepower and can overwhelm multiple enemies at almost any given time-not to mention having fantastic escape mechanisms. Mechs like the reaper can utterly decimate at medium range with the rather strange notion of medium/long range burst damage-though with high accuracy, a combination of well timed dodges and precision makes it a valid sustained fire mech. The berserker, I mean, wow. The lack of mobility in C classes makes them a very natural prey for a mech that can spend a great deal of time maneuvering above and behind them.
And the tech-not only can you play it quite well in a 1v1 match, but it heals. Heals. Heals. And moves to your team as fast as any A mech can.

C and B classes are big targets that serve well as distractions for the enemy to shoot at while A classes get behind the enemy. Yes, they can hold their own too, but in a fight, the ability to keep your enemy confused as to your whereabouts and being difficult to hit is essentially the best thing you can have.

It is worth noting that patches are going to skew balances from time to time, but as a pretty consistent player of Hawken, I've noticed very little in the vein of A classes becoming obsolete. However, perhaps all of our opinions will change when the patch is actually released.

Edited by ticklemyiguana, April 23 2014 - 12:47 PM.

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#14 Bazookagofer

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Posted April 23 2014 - 12:28 PM

Well at least A Classes won't be them mindless go-to mechs anymore like in Ascension. *cough* infil *cough* 670HP*cough*

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#15 SectionZ

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Posted April 23 2014 - 02:48 PM

They didn't buff turn speeds, so it will still be physically impossible to keep your aim on close up A classes if you bother to use turret mode.  Though I will miss completely vaporizing the ones I flank in about one and a half seconds with my Berserker.  I can be a hypocrite sometimes.

Still, most of the C classes I see in turret mode before patch comes are ones who never set foot on the AA themselves while screaming at their A classes to capture the AA for them.  If this encourages them to actually go to the AA themselves when there is the slightest personal risk, good.  But I'd rate it a coinflip between that, and it just reinforcing their babying their KDR trying to take potshots from a distance even with a brawler rather than go on the AA if they might get shot.

Besides, it's not like B classes are going to be vanishing with this patch.  And my Vanguard and Incinerator feel painfully slow so even with the speed buff I'm kind of afraid to dust off my Grenadier and Brawler.  "Yes, Flak cannon and +0.5 run speed increase!... I'll get there... any second now... oh god why I'm only halfway there."

#16 LEmental

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Posted April 23 2014 - 04:36 PM

A classes are really good in pub games where there isn't much coordination and people are scattered about.

In organized play, a lot of battles are attrition based and around choke points.  A mechs are the ones getting picked off in this case because they can't survive a sniper volley and some hellfire missiles.

I don't doubt that A mechs are great in 1vs1 fights, but those are rare in high level team play.

Pretty much the only way I see A mechs used in these games is to create an opening by suiciding into a key target like a tech.

Edited by LEmental, April 23 2014 - 04:39 PM.

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#17 IareDave

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Posted April 23 2014 - 07:29 PM

A classes never have and never will be obselete. Movement and positioning is key and As are the best.

#18 ticklemyiguana

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Posted April 23 2014 - 08:32 PM

View PostLEmental, on April 23 2014 - 04:36 PM, said:

A classes are really good in pub games where there isn't much coordination and people are scattered about.

In organized play, a lot of battles are attrition based and around choke points.  A mechs are the ones getting picked off in this case because they can't survive a sniper volley and some hellfire missiles.

I don't doubt that A mechs are great in 1vs1 fights, but those are rare in high level team play.

Pretty much the only way I see A mechs used in these games is to create an opening by suiciding into a key target like a tech.

Except when.. you know.. any of this happens..

View Postticklemyiguana, on April 23 2014 - 12:12 PM, said:

In more competitive team play A classes are even more vital for flanking and disorienting your enemies. Mechs like the infiltrator and heatscout have tremendous firepower and can overwhelm multiple enemies at almost any given time-not to mention having fantastic escape mechanisms. Mechs like the reaper can utterly decimate at medium range with the rather strange notion of medium/long range burst damage-though with high accuracy, a combination of well timed dodges and precision makes it a valid sustained fire mech. The berserker, I mean, wow. The lack of mobility in C classes makes them a very natural prey for a mech that can spend a great deal of time maneuvering above and behind them.
And the tech-not only can you play it quite well in a 1v1 match, but it heals. Heals. Heals. And moves to your team as fast as any A mech can.

C and B classes are big targets that serve well as distractions for the enemy to shoot at while A classes get behind the enemy. Yes, they can hold their own too, but in a fight, the ability to keep your enemy confused as to your whereabouts and being difficult to hit is essentially the best thing you can have.

Basically, if in competitive, organized play, if you don't have a few a classes ready to flank or disorient the enemy at a given time, you're basically just hoping that you can shoot at the enemy more than they can shoot at you.

Edited by ticklemyiguana, April 23 2014 - 08:34 PM.

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#19 Mawnkey

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Posted April 23 2014 - 10:49 PM

As it is right now, I'd bet you dollars to donuts most of the paying customers are not upper tier members of groups in competitive play. I'd bet you they spend most of their time in casual PUGs. A class mechs dominate PUGs so hard right now it's not even funny. On the other hand, C class mechs are target practice for A classes in a PUG, because you never ever have a good team backing you up. To the average paying customer, right now there's an entire class of mechs that seem like a total waste of money.

If the majority of paying customers perceive an entire class of mechs as basically useless because the first easily accessible one is actually unable to compete with everything else on the field, the game's gonna lose money. I'm betting that's why C class mechs are getting another buff. More useful mechs means more MC spent on more different mechs which means more money to continue developing the game. Honestly it makes a lot of sense if you look at it that way.

Edited by Mawnkey, April 23 2014 - 10:50 PM.


#20 Skitzo1d

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Posted April 24 2014 - 07:57 AM

View PostMawnkey, on April 23 2014 - 10:49 PM, said:

As it is right now, I'd bet you dollars to donuts most of the paying customers are not upper tier members of groups in competitive play. I'd bet you they spend most of their time in casual PUGs. A class mechs dominate PUGs so hard right now it's not even funny. On the other hand, C class mechs are target practice for A classes in a PUG, because you never ever have a good team backing you up. To the average paying customer, right now there's an entire class of mechs that seem like a total waste of money.

If the majority of paying customers perceive an entire class of mechs as basically useless because the first easily accessible one is actually unable to compete with everything else on the field, the game's gonna lose money. I'm betting that's why C class mechs are getting another buff. More useful mechs means more MC spent on more different mechs which means more money to continue developing the game. Honestly it makes a lot of sense if you look at it that way.

From a businesss standpoint alone yes, which sucks for real competitive players though

View Postticklemyiguana, on April 23 2014 - 12:12 PM, said:

Oh my goodness no. A classes are difficult to play, so if you, your team, and your opponents aren't good at them, certainly they'll be obsolete. That being said, all of my >20 streaks, quadrakills and whatnot are done in A class mechs. B and C simply don't have the mobility to be effective trackers, hunters and killers. And they certainly have a harder time getting away from enemy fire.

In more competitive team play A classes are even more vital for flanking and disorienting your enemies. Mechs like the infiltrator and heatscout have tremendous firepower and can overwhelm multiple enemies at almost any given time-not to mention having fantastic escape mechanisms. Mechs like the reaper can utterly decimate at medium range with the rather strange notion of medium/long range burst damage-though with high accuracy, a combination of well timed dodges and precision makes it a valid sustained fire mech. The berserker, I mean, wow. The lack of mobility in C classes makes them a very natural prey for a mech that can spend a great deal of time maneuvering above and behind them.
And the tech-not only can you play it quite well in a 1v1 match, but it heals. Heals. Heals. And moves to your team as fast as any A mech can.

C and B classes are big targets that serve well as distractions for the enemy to shoot at while A classes get behind the enemy. Yes, they can hold their own too, but in a fight, the ability to keep your enemy confused as to your whereabouts and being difficult to hit is essentially the best thing you can have.

It is worth noting that patches are going to skew balances from time to time, but as a pretty consistent player of Hawken, I've noticed very little in the vein of A classes becoming obsolete. However, perhaps all of our opinions will change when the patch is actually released.

Again I am sure you only playing in PUGs, which currently I do to, but coming from other competitive fps games I'm looking at it as an end user not a causal mmm pew pew pug head. If I am wrong and your playing in high lvl team play well my bad, but most people I heard at higher level tier play pretty much say the same things, where I am getting my info from.

Now I am not saying A classes are completly pointless, the tech is a must in high lvl (which is broken as ive posted before).  But lets take your example of what the A class does well in high lvl tier play which is skirmish and hit targets around the edges, your not going to do burst damage very well specially as a scout cause thats cqc play.  So your poking them poking them poking them, guess what their tech is healing all the damage your doing so its a pretty moot point to stay back poking them every so slightly like your mentioning, the only one that has a chance at making a difference in that range and area is the reaper he could flank decently and have enough burst to do enough damage at that range, but if your goign to go that route, might as well go SS and even be more benefit to your team.  Even the inflatrator probably the best flanker but at that range it would be rough he would almost have to go kamakazi to secure a kill, the scout for sure will.  Which brings me to the best part of an A class it would seem at high lvl which would to be to kamakazi that stupid tech pilot so your team can have an even number to fight against basically.  But then again if your team has a tech then your team is over balanced so if techs become mandatory it might be mandatory to have a kamakazi pilot, but you better be darn good cause if you kamakazi and you miss one shot your dead before you can get that tech.

I might change my mind when and if I reach the higher level tier of players and start playing there myself.  I will agree with the the majority of the post that I hear that they arent becoming more and more and more obsolete (albeit only slightly at a time), but that is ONLY because right now just as you I am at the 1750 to 1850 mmr range (my mmr went back to 1750 after i switched back to trying shift boosting :( ) and just playing PUGS its very uncoordinated, half the time your team is scattered across the entire whole map so its easy to get 1vs1's and pick off low people, but in highly organized teamplay that will go right out the window.  So I agree in PUGS A's dominate the field cause of the structure which PUGS are coordinated and carried out.

An example a PUG player might beable to see without getting to higher lvl tier play is playing siege, this mode is designed around team play so teams naturally work better in this mode even in regular PUG games.  And in this mode you see less and less A's and more B's and C's. Now I still play my A's in this mode but its very hard work (skill) to beable to compete and be effective for your team, yea you run the EU fast and thats good, but the AA point is the most crucial point, holding that point is vital to winning and C's (specially with a tech) master that very very well.  Try taking an AA from a group of heavies with all A's its very very difficult if almost impossible if even level of skill of pilot is there.  Now reverse the situation the C's can push the A's off pretty easy.  So if your playing TDM and DM mode in PUGS yes A's are overpowered just because of the other pilots are stupid enough to stay away from their team and try to take on a crazy dodging A mech 1vs1 (although with the recent bug fix to the boost jump fire its becoming easier for C's to do that)

Edited by Skitzo1d, April 24 2014 - 07:59 AM.

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