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I'm curious about the support the new TTK has.


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#1 HugeGuts

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Posted February 07 2014 - 04:16 PM

I'm curious about the support the new TTK has. Given the community's first reaction to a lower TTK with the Raider patch, I wonder why is this?


As you can see, most people were against a lower TTK. And I definitely don't see anyone calling for an even lower TTK. The devs even increased the TTK in the next patch with a general burst damage nerf. The Technician, also in the next patch, increased TTK too, but that's a whole different story.

I know some people like the new TTK because "it's like old Hawken," but old Hawken was never like this. Here is old Hawken before the Detonator, Raider Patch, and Technician.

Spoiler

As you can see, older Hawken's TTK is higher than what the game has now. What older Hawken does have is faster movement.

On a side note, the firefight between 12:55 and 15:00 in the Brawler video is the most difficult and exciting fight I've had yet. Nothing in newer Hawken comes close. I can assure you that fight would be a lot different if either team was packing Detonators and/or Technicians.

Edited by HugeGuts, February 07 2014 - 05:03 PM.


#2 Mergaz

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Posted February 07 2014 - 04:57 PM

They decreased the ttk to prevent players from leaving combat using boost (mainly due to high real resistance of A-Mechs that had the most effective survival before the patch due to dodge and boost  faster). I personally found it totally unnecessary change. Only create a dodge with less difference between the classes as they did in this patch and add extra damage to attacks from behind (Incidentally this would encourage flank and ambush tactics).and the problem of dominance of A-Mechs was resolved without dramatically changing the gameplay. was not necessary to modify the TTK of all three classes.
Unfortunately for solving the problem of burst damage they would be better to add a CD to dodge at least 3s to allow weapons of damage sustained to be able to dump damage before the enemy to hide, but that's another story.

Edited by Mergaz, February 07 2014 - 05:25 PM.


#3 DennisKnightPC

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Posted February 07 2014 - 05:07 PM

I mean no disrespect whatsoever but there are already so many threads where this is being discussed extensively, there is no way the devs haven't heard you (royal you) so do we really need another one....

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#4 Zevka

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Posted February 08 2014 - 06:10 AM

I really despise it, totally ruined the game for me.

Low TTK with slow movement is just what you get in EVERY multiplayer FPS around since years, and it's not fun. There's no skill involved, it's just a matter of who shot first.

The high TTK is what appealed to me in Hawken in the first place, as it was original and fun. You could have intense battle, still comes out alive, you had to engage agressively the enemy to kill them, and not camp on your ass away from the fight, it required teamwork to hold or take a position, now it's just bad....

#5 comic_sans

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Posted February 08 2014 - 08:09 AM

I have enough enthusiasm for this version of the patch to make like, 80 threads, but I just don't because I'm playing.

Also Huge, how have I never run into you in all this time playing?  What region are you on?

#6 LordTemujin

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Posted February 08 2014 - 08:29 AM

He plays siege, E/W USA

seen him a couple times

Also seen him on the UK siege servers.

As to anything beyond that? no idea.
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#7 HugeGuts

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Posted February 10 2014 - 03:22 PM

After Ascension, I only played USA TDM.

Some other notes about closed beta:

Due to a large cool down on all secondary weapons combined with easy fleeing from fast boosting, open space combat was the most viable in closed beta. Primary weapons did most of the damage while secondary weapons worked as softeners and finishers. The challenge in open space combat was to maintain optimal primary weapon distance for maximum DPS/minimum damage taken while mentally tracking secondary weapon cool downs to prepare for a dodge. Battles typically transitioned between open space combat and chasing multiple times.

Due to all classes having similar boosting speeds, chasing was more involved than being faster than the other guy. The chaser would have to consider possible routes the chasee would take and try to cut them off (assuming map design allowed that.) The chasee would need to minimize their exposure by moving at specific angles while boosting from cover to cover.

Due to the faster speeds, boosting out of cover was a viable surprise attack. In close combat, boosting past and behind someone followed by a 180 for free hits while the opponent reoriented their self was also viable.

When open beta released, the speed reduction for B's and C's removed this kind of gameplay for them, and peek a boo/column dancing game play became the norm. Overall, there are less options in open beta than in closed beta.

Edited by HugeGuts, February 10 2014 - 03:33 PM.


#8 ShadowWarg

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Posted February 10 2014 - 03:39 PM

your forgetting, that CB Hawken was a time where not every server had as many players as it does now.

I used the videos timeline as a guide starting  From the time to engagement  to the time where someone dies. That time was about 25 sec - 1 minute up to about 6-7 mins depending whether or not they were able to escape can come back. Of course I did it the cheap way. Someone else could get a more accurate estimate.

Edit: after watching the good old days. I am convinced that all the current Hawken needs is a 10%-15% boost in the health and dodge being tied to fuel again at a reduced cost. Then everything is good.

Edited by ShadowWarg, February 10 2014 - 03:53 PM.


#9 Xacius

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Posted February 10 2014 - 03:45 PM

I think that ground speeds could be increased by 2m/s across the board, giving C's and B's some love and A's a lot as well.  With TTK being this low, speeds need to be a little faster.
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#10 WarlordZ

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Posted February 10 2014 - 04:25 PM

View PostHugeGuts, on February 07 2014 - 04:16 PM, said:

t between 12:55 and 15:00 in the Brawler video is the most difficult and exciting fight I've had yet. Nothing in newer Hawken comes close. I can assure you that fight would be a lot different if either team was packing Detonators and/or Technicians.
And thanks to things like these, we can't go back to that style of play.

The TTK we have now is needed for the content the developers have decided to create.  We can't have very long TTKs because it's so easy to regain health. Nearly any time that you lose someone, they speed-heal and are fighting fit again.  The solution while retaining that healing is to lower the total health so that fights end with little question of escape.

Edited by WarlordZ, February 10 2014 - 04:26 PM.


#11 Fivelon

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Posted February 10 2014 - 04:38 PM

Did the TOWs used to arc a little or is my memory messed up? The guns used to feel so... heavy.

#12 AsianJoyKiller

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Posted February 10 2014 - 05:00 PM

View PostFivelon, on February 10 2014 - 04:38 PM, said:

Did the TOWs used to arc a little or is my memory messed up? The guns used to feel so... heavy.
Never arced. I believe they visually spiraled to a large degree, but it was toned down to reflect the projectiles actual path.

Edited by AsianJoyKiller, February 10 2014 - 05:01 PM.

[HWK]HUGHES, on July 03 2013 - 11:07 PM, said:

AJK is right

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#13 Nept

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Posted February 10 2014 - 05:09 PM

Glanced through the threads you posted, Guts, and it seemed as though they largely concerned the capacity for a couple mechs to alpha strike.  It's also worth noting that the lowered ttk within this patch was accompanied by substantially-increased movement.  Personally, I wouldn't've enjoyed lower ttk without a movement increase.

Would I want increased ttk with increased movement?  I don't think so - think we'd go right back to the mechball problem.  I enjoy the lower ttk because it allows better players to deal with multiple opponents.

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#14 1uster

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Posted February 10 2014 - 08:58 PM

Atm I am not sure what to think about the actual Hawken b/c I didn't had that much time to play last week. I give it some time before judging. When Ascension came I struggled a lot regaining my "skill".

View PostHugeGuts, on February 07 2014 - 04:16 PM, said:

As you can see, older Hawken's TTK is higher than what the game has now. What older Hawken does have is faster movement.

On a side note, the firefight between 12:55 and 15:00 in the Brawler video is the most difficult and exciting fight I've had yet. Nothing in newer Hawken comes close. I can assure you that fight would be a lot different if either team was packing Detonators and/or Technicians.

Tbh in your video I got the impression that the movement speed feels slower than now. But your playing a C... difficult to judge.
Also with removing of the tuning some may have the impression that it's slower (Xacius...) but at the end that's what you get with fixed values for every mech. ;-)
Tonight I had already some good moments again but also you can see a lot of players (including me) who follow their old habits and fail badly.
I just hope they will never change everything that dramatic again. The playerbase can't eat such big meals with every patch. Not the smartest move.

#15 driedjello

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Posted February 10 2014 - 10:28 PM

There has been bickering after every patch but this one's a doozy.  We officially have divided into the Hatfields and the McCoys.
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