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no more offensive/defensive items


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#1 Ace4225

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Posted November 26 2012 - 10:39 AM

There's been a lot of talks over the use of items and the OP-ness of the EMP that many of us agree is an issue.

I know there's a master list of item suggestions, but this topic focuses more on this point:

do away with "offensive" items and make items more strictly into "countermeasures," that is, defensive items that limit your opponent's offensive options rather than giving you free hits/more offensive damage.

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What I think just needs to happen is that the items take more of a countermeasure role on the battlefield. Right now, some items are simply too offensive in nature, such as the HE charge and EMP. The HE is basically an extra grenade on a mech like the infil, as the Detonator would be an extra missile. Who doesn't want extra firepower? The EMP is obviously OP at the moment....

Turrets primarily serve as distractions... so I think they're fine as long as they stay nerfed.

What I would propose:

-instead of EMP, have comm-jammer. Upon hitting a target, disables wireless connections to items and teammates [so your deployed items stop working and you lose sight of your teammates.]

-remove HE charge and Detonator

-instead of radar, have a "spy drone" that could give you an overhead view of a part of the battlefield and help you relay info to teammates.

-make the radar-jammer an actual jammer; have it render enemy radar inactive within a given radius of item deployment rather than simply giving false signatures. Possibly could visually mess with the HUD a little too.

-have some sort of countermeasure for locking weapons like the Seeker and Hellfire missiles. I.E., an on-board [or deployable] target-jammer that breaks missile lock and perhaps also prevents the enemy from being able to see your name/health.

-make the hologram give a radar signature, or perhaps make it possible to deploy multiple holograms at once. [other than that, I'm cool with it.]

Edited by Ace4225, November 26 2012 - 12:28 PM.

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US East    -Brawler   -Berserker   -Scout   -Assault
---->[ =./\.= ]<----


#2 Sylhiri

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Posted November 26 2012 - 10:46 AM

View PostAce4225, on November 26 2012 - 10:39 AM, said:

-have some sort of countermeasure for locking weapons like the Seeker and Hellfire missiles. I.E., an on-board [or deployable] target-jammer that breaks missile lock and perhaps also prevents the enemy from being able to see your name/health.

Flares?

Also a item that creates a wall, one direction, would help stop AoE explosive damage. Shields right now stop all bullet damage and covers everything but doesn't stop AoE damage unless your outside of the bubble. A singular wall with an HP value that stops AoE and bullets would help.

Edited by Sylhiri, November 26 2012 - 10:48 AM.

[13:14] <nonsiccus_work> uh oh

there's gravy in my keyboard

----------------------------------------------------------------------

[11:18] <+shosca> if you wanna play ar, go play zerker
[11:18] <Hyginos> and if you want to play zerker, go smc
[11:19] <someone> if you want to play sustain, please go and die in hell


#3 G4M5T3R

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Posted November 26 2012 - 10:50 AM

I don't think they need to get rid of any of the items. That little extra bit of offense is sometimes the key decider in a fight. I also disagree with the statement that the EMP is OP. The second I'm hit by one I simply Shift+S and find cover for a sec. Rarely is an EMP the cause of my death.
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#4 Ace4225

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Posted November 26 2012 - 11:16 AM

you're arguing for the EMP based on experience..

from a gameplay mechanics perspective, the EMP shuts down your weapons, HUD, radar, etc for ~4 seconds [it's been timed]. What happens if you boost away and find yourself boosting into an ambush? Now you have no way to fight back.

Anyway, most of the issues are with the large AoE it has; for an item that's so detrimental to a fight, it's too easy to hit people with.

So, we could nerf the AoE, or change how the item works.



View PostG4M5T3R, on November 26 2012 - 10:50 AM, said:

That little extra bit of offense is sometimes the key decider in a fight.

This is exactly why I feel the way I do. Items shouldn't determine fights. Player skill should.

Edited by Ace4225, November 26 2012 - 11:17 AM.

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#5 Sparkard

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Posted November 26 2012 - 12:23 PM

I like the EMP how it is now. I rarely use it but dashing behind the cover is enough for me to negate most of enemy's advantage. But it's true it's "OP" in mechanics compared to other items.

spy drone +1 - i think detonator was supposed to work in similiar way. "Veteran operators use it to scaut enemy positions" I thought it'd look like Ut Redeemer. (Now that would be OP :D )

locking weapons counter measure +1 , and +1 for flares.

hologram +1

radar-jammer -1 I like it the way it is now. It is an interesting mechanick that is imo usefull. Your proposition is the "obvious" way ppl would expect it to work and as i find it a good addition as a second type of jammer it could make the original jammer a less "attractive" option. So i'm somewhat against.

comm-jammer, i'm not sure if it'd be usefull but meh, ok.

#6 Ace4225

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Posted November 26 2012 - 12:35 PM

View PostSparkard, on November 26 2012 - 12:23 PM, said:

comm-jammer, i'm not sure if it'd be usefull but meh, ok.

I figured this one might be a bit confusing; let me give you a for-instance.

You're in a TDM, fighting a skilled berserker pilot who's just dropped an MG turret and is now circling around you to cut you off and force you to choose between him and the turret. Now comes a teammate behind him to support him who dodges behind a building to flank you.

You fire your comm-jammer [w/e it'd be called] at the berserker, and bam. His turret stops working and shuts down. Now he can't see where his teammate is, and you have a chance to re-position yourself and prepare for a 1v2 as you engage the berserker. The effect would be, of course, temporary, and only last for a few precious seconds just like the EMP does now.

Edit:

Advantages of comm-jammer over existing EMP:

-would disable all items currently deployed by the victim for a duration; even if they're deployed across the map from him.
-would encourage teamwork/good communication rather than gung-ho offense

Skill-enhancing cons:

-wouldn't shut down enemy weapons or radar [but it would cause friendlies to disappear both from view and radar]
-would be used to even the playing field with someone who's already deployed items rather than one-up them by giving you/your team free shots.

Edited by Ace4225, November 26 2012 - 12:41 PM.

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#7 ReachH

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Posted November 26 2012 - 02:03 PM

View PostAce4225, on November 26 2012 - 10:39 AM, said:


-instead of EMP, have comm-jammer. Upon hitting a target, disables wireless connections to items and teammates [so your deployed items stop working and you lose sight of your teammates.]

-remove HE charge and Detonator

-instead of radar, have a "spy drone" that could give you an overhead view of a part of the battlefield and help you relay info to teammates.

-make the radar-jammer an actual jammer; have it render enemy radar inactive within a given radius of item deployment rather than simply giving false signatures. Possibly could visually mess with the HUD a little too.

-have some sort of countermeasure for locking weapons like the Seeker and Hellfire missiles. I.E., an on-board [or deployable] target-jammer that breaks missile lock and perhaps also prevents the enemy from being able to see your name/health.

-make the hologram give a radar signature, or perhaps make it possible to deploy multiple holograms at once. [other than that, I'm cool with it.]

I like this, however single target comm jamming is a bit useless considering how easy it is to kill things. It should function like the radar jammer does, a deployable area of effect (that you stick on top of buildings and underside bridges because you are a sneaky snake.)

The radar should be a projectile, simply because radar jammer>Radar. Even as a Ss you don't need the radar because you have the 30m boost anyway. Although maybe the deployable radar is better in siege/assault games - I dunno.

countermeasures are a bad idea because they are too class specific. And if its a general weapons lock it is basically an emp.

Hologram is utterly useless as it is now. I think I got fooled by it once a long time ago in CB1, during a long range sniper fight. But he could have just run away and not needed the hologram and had a heal instead :/

I kinda like the detonator/HE. Its a dps spike for close quarters emergencies with class As, and as a SS I find myself relying on them quite a lot to get me out of a jam or to commit to a difficult kill (full health rocketeer etc.) It also gives some emergency indirect fire. As a class that only has hitscan, its nice to know my experience with a good ol' rocket launcher is not wasted.

View Post[HWK]HUGHES, on October 23 2013 - 06:01 PM, said:

Development happens.


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#8 Sparkard

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Posted November 26 2012 - 02:20 PM

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You're in a TDM, fighting a skilled berserker pilot.
Firing an EMP like charge when playing against a skilled berserker means that your best chance is to hit him with it's AoE, that means it'l hinder your ability to effectively deliver damage even though you are good and using items doesn't require you to stop shooting. Berserker has low hp pool, imho it's better to deliver more damage.

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Now he can't see where his teammate is, and you have a chance to re-position yourself and prepare for a 1v2 as you engage the berserker.
I don't think he cares if he sees his ally, and he's a freaking berserker, he's fast and the weather is against you (it's raining with bullets).

The turrets are good as they are now. I don't think they need a countermeasure. If he's deploying his turret then you have enough time to lose it's LOS. If it's already deployed then it isn't hard to go back few steps when you notice it, repositioning yourself already is a viable tactic.

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-would encourage teamwork/good communication rather than gung-ho offense
I'm afraid it'd rather be a cause of gang-ho offense behaviour amongst most players.

In comp team play most of it's advantages are neglected by teamplay and any kind of voice-chat that is always present in such enviroment.

You may adjust comm-jammer effect time and how easy would it be to use it but i'm afraid there's a thin border between comm-jammer being close to useless and rendering enemy items useless.

I'm not against it, we could try it if devs would fancy making it for us, but i'm still not sure where and how exactly it could be usefull.

Edited by Sparkard, November 26 2012 - 02:23 PM.


#9 Ace4225

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Posted November 26 2012 - 02:24 PM

View PostReachH, on November 26 2012 - 02:03 PM, said:

I like this, however single target comm jamming is a bit useless considering how easy it is to kill things. It should function like the radar jammer does, a deployable area of effect (that you stick on top of buildings and underside bridges because you are a sneaky snake.)

The radar should be a projectile, simply because radar jammer>Radar. Even as a Ss you don't need the radar because you have the 30m boost anyway. Although maybe the deployable radar is better in siege/assault games - I dunno.

countermeasures are a bad idea because they are too class specific. And if its a general weapons lock it is basically an emp.

Hologram is utterly useless as it is now. I think I got fooled by it once a long time ago in CB1, during a long range sniper fight. But he could have just run away and not needed the hologram and had a heal instead :/

I kinda like the detonator/HE. Its a dps spike for close quarters emergencies with class As, and as a SS I find myself relying on them quite a lot to get me out of a jam or to commit to a difficult kill (full health rocketeer etc.) It also gives some emergency indirect fire. As a class that only has hitscan, its nice to know my experience with a good ol' rocket launcher is not wasted.

I agree with most of those points, however countermeasures would not necessarily be class-specific. Quite a few mechs are equipped with Hellfires... and as it is, without any sort of lock-on canceling countermeasures, the Seeker is a bit OP as a primary weapon that can home around corners and hit people at all ranges without generating a lot of heat.

as far as the comm-jammer [replacing EMP] I'm fine with it being a projectile with an AoE like the existing EMP.. just having different properties.

The detonator might be fine on an SS that needs a bit of extra help against a rocketeer, but that's what you also have the Damage Increase ability for. On a skilled infiltrator who already knows how to arc grenades well, the HE is just an extra shot that you can use every so often that doesn't use heat. Bad form. Same story with Detonator and the current EMP [the only exception with the EMP being that it doesn't do damage, but it leaves you open for such.]

Edited by Ace4225, November 26 2012 - 08:39 PM.

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