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Seige mode Sahara not a balanced map...


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#1 CaliberMengsk

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Posted October 31 2012 - 10:46 AM

Let me explain a little more. While it's cool that the map is not mirrored and makes it look better, it harshly tilts toward one side of the map when it comes to holding the AA. One side of the map has a path that not only leads directly to the AA, but it also gives high ground advantage.

I'm not complaining a ton due to the fact that my team still won the matches we played, but that was mainly due to my guild mates playing in the game with me, but I'm complaining for the future of the game. The only way to create a fair and thriving e-sport scene is to have fair and balanced maps. Titan is a good example. It's pretty much a mirror, while not as interesting visually, is an extremely balanced map because of this.

I don't mind a different map that's not mirrored, just like Sahara, but I do mind that from a tactical standpoint, one side has an extreme advantage over a key point in the map that is required to be held in order to win. Just like in real combat situations, it's still harder to battle up hill, and it gives the one side the advantage of being able to just hover straight across a gap then the other side that has to run up to it, then hover their way up to the top.

The rest of the map is fine I suppose, though the energy points are able to be seen at quite a further distance for one team then the other as well.

That's my rant, with points to support it. Opinions?

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#2 AsianJoyKiller

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Posted October 31 2012 - 10:51 AM

I felt like this too, for much the same reasons.

I'm not sure I'd go as far to say extremely unbalanced, but it did seem to favor noticeably more than the other.

[HWK]HUGHES, on July 03 2013 - 11:07 PM, said:

AJK is right

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#3 CaliberMengsk

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Posted October 31 2012 - 10:53 AM

^_^; I tend to over exaggerate my words. It wasn't game breaking, but it was and advantage to the one team that should be looked at more closely when designing the levels, in my opinion.

Edited by CaliberMengsk, October 31 2012 - 10:54 AM.

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#4 Hipnox

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Posted October 31 2012 - 11:28 AM

Yes i realized SM-Sahara was very unbalanced pretty much from my first playthtough.

The AA tower is totally tilted towards the Sentinel (i don't remember the team name correctly, lets call it Team 1) in more than one way:

> The primary path to the AA for T1 is high ground, where the path for T2 is low ground, up a hill
> The easiest side to jump up to the AA tower is on T1's side, the other side requires a longer jump
> The primary path to the AA for T1 is essentially a cañon, protected on both sides by solid rock. T2 is practically an open field
> T2's spawn point can be seen from the AA tower, allowing them to harass the spawn point if they have enough manpower.
> T1 has better turrret placement locations than T2 (because of higher ground
> T1 Reinforcements going to the AA tower are protected by the high rocks on pretty much all paths towards the AA tower, T2 on the other hand, have to climp up a slope on open ground, requiring to hop form cover to cover in order to get there unharmed.
> The area around T2's spawn point is the game's equivalent of an open field. T1's side of the map, on the other hand, is protected by high rocks all around, hence they are free to roam their side at their leisure without retaliation until they get close to the AA

#5 QuanZen

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Posted October 31 2012 - 11:43 AM

Siege Mode with this map definitely favors the team with voice coordination. But the team with the high ground can quickly get overrun if they don't pay attention to being flanked. Being so close to the AA is also a disadvantage for them because it's so easy to double back behind them to flank their position while all their attention is focused on the AA. This also applies when they try to shoot down the Battleship instead of controlling the AA.
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#6 NotKjell

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Posted October 31 2012 - 12:27 PM

Huh...I felt if there was any imbalance it was the other way. One team had open fields to access any given point, where as the other team had narrow chokes leading to each point. I never really struggled to hold any point because of this.

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#7 hestoned

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Posted October 31 2012 - 01:12 PM

See the devs need to unlock the console again for threads like this. It would be so much easier if i could take pics showing the huge line of sight advantage sharpshooters have on one side of the map over the other. Sahara used to be way more symmetrical if i recall correctly where the base texture used to be.
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#8 Lazoraz

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Posted October 31 2012 - 01:23 PM

On one hand Prosk has a huge hill advantage, and in many cases it is easier. But Sentium can flank quite easily as the paths from both energy towers go around and behind the AA. Not to mention Sentium has excellent sniping room. They can almost snipe the whole map from the back "wall" by their base. So I don't think it's TOO unbalanced, you just have to use the quirks for your side.
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#9 Coldrew

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Posted October 31 2012 - 01:41 PM

Sahara is a lovely map, I spent a good couple hours playing it in TDM and Siege during the last event and figured I'd bring a couple points to the table, similar to some of you other fella's remarks.  The map does have some issues, but the design is quite eloquent, and is balanced.  For Siege Sahara I love being on the further away team, but I'll leave that out.  Dis is already going to be a long post.

There is a distinct uphill battle to the map, but there is also a story built into the environment.
On team A you've got quick access to both Nodes, but your path to those spaces is totally open, there's hardly any cover other than the landscape and a few bits here and there.  On Team B you have a longer trek through the low land and through the destroyed city, there's much more room to move, cover to take, and the added benefit of having the city to help you blend in.  One Node's environment is themed to each team, and there are certain mechs, and approaches that will give you the advantage on either Node, from either team.

The AA on the other hand is a mash-up of both team's themes, and a different beast in and of itself. Each side get's a small benefit from it's approach, but the caveat is that the AA station, and it's cap zone, are incredibly close quarters. Which doesn't naturally show up nearly as much in other portions of the map.
Team B has a much wider range of approaches to take up to the AA and each path has it's cover.  Team A has 3 approaches and the high ground. that's about it.  The center is mostly cover based.  If you're on Team B defending the AA and getting wasted by Team A on the high ground, take cover in the AA station and force them close then send some mates around to flank 'em. If Team A is sitting on the AA, you're free to walk up their back side and waste them from behind.

A Large part of what I've seen from Siege Sahara is two teams trying, honestly trying, but at some point there's a demand for more than just rolling in your fav' mech and treating each encounter the same way. Nothing ruins a 3v3 node attack more than sticking your face out, getting some pokes in and not falling back to repair. Once you're outgunned the situation heavy starts to stack against you.

I'll digress, but for balance in Siege, I feel getting steamrolled has a larger part to do with team tactics, and being outgunned, on Sahara or Titan. I've been on a team of 4 vs 6 baddies, 3 of the 4 where good pilots, but being outgunned and out resourced makes all the difference in the world to objective based matches, and I feel in some ways, to Hawken in general. Conversely, going spartan with 4 dudes and turning a mid progress game around when outnumbered is the best.

TL:DR One side has a height advantage, but are bottlenecked because of it. The other side has space but distance to cover, both are a double edged sword. There's an very inherent feel of unbalance to the map when you first walk in, but don't take that as being unintentional or without being in check.
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#10 akatrio

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Posted October 31 2012 - 06:20 PM

Hmm, interesting to read more views on the Sahara Siege map, especially thoughts such as Lazoraz' regarding usage of the quirks for the map. There's actually another earlier topic discussing the balance of the Sahara map for Siege here. I agree though that a well-coordinated team against a struggling team can definitely wreck havoc on any map regardless of the terrain.

#11 Lithium03

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Posted October 31 2012 - 08:17 PM

I personally think SG-Sahara needs to have the AA moved to the circle area near Prosk side and then move that section up to the middle basically removing the hill.

#12 BeefC4ke

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Posted October 31 2012 - 09:17 PM

i actually find myself in an opposite situation to the OP.
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#13 Deu

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Posted November 01 2012 - 01:03 AM

No reason to play it down the advantage is huge and game changing.

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#14 Taihus

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Posted November 01 2012 - 09:46 AM

Now what's really interesting is that I recall playing a game of Seige on Sahara where I was on a team with only two other guys versus a team of five, plus we were on the Sentium team, with the low ground, but while we didn't exactly steamroll the other team we eventually won the game.  The key is to have at least two people hunker down under the AA and take potshots at anyone trying to approach through the two chokepoints, while another guy tries flanking the Prosk team.

Mind you, there were times when nobody on the other team even tried to take the AA, so it might have been that the other team were just really really bad.
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#15 Conquistador

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Posted November 01 2012 - 10:18 AM

The distinct uphill advantage provided to the team with the high ground ridge line is countered by the fact that the ridge line is a narrow choke point with almost no room to maneuver. I have consistently requested my team "spam the ridge" with high explosives, and infiltrators are ideal for this sort of suppression fire. The options provided to the team on the high ground are vastly more limited, with essentially three paths to choose from. The team members emerging from the side on low ground have vastly superior patching choices.

That being said, I feel the need for siege to be designed as a symmetric map, if only to address balance issues.
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#16 BeefC4ke

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Posted November 01 2012 - 11:25 AM

View PostConquistador, on November 01 2012 - 10:18 AM, said:


The distinct uphill advantage provided to the team with the high ground ridge line is countered by the fact that the ridge line is a narrow choke point with almost no room to maneuver. I have consistently requested my team "spam the ridge" with high explosives, and infiltrators are ideal for this sort of suppression fire. The options provided to the team on the high ground are vastly more limited, with essentially three paths to choose from. The team members emerging from the side on low ground have vastly superior patching choices.

That being said, I feel the need for siege to be designed as a symmetric map, if only to address balance issues.

What this guy said!

It's so easy to lock the ridge down just shoot grenade/missiles/sabot rounds up there. Like I said in my earlier post. I think it's easier on the side with the low ground.
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#17 RipperT

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Posted November 01 2012 - 01:07 PM

I would like to say that I like the Sahara map as it is. Most of the team wins I experienced were from the "low" side of the map and any wins from either side were more of a result of one person keeping everyone up to date with voice reports as to energy status and directing traffic to needed locations. All of the longest battles I fought in were on this map. It gave the opportunity to shoot down the opposing battleship without keeping constant control of the AA point (unlike Titan) forcing a running battle when you had two good teams.

The map design is more of what I expect for a mech battleground with some open space to run and gun (and snipe) instead of getting hung up on a tight corner and unable to dodge due to another team member dropping a point defense turret next to or behind you in a narrow choke point. The lack of mirror map design was welcome in my opinion and I would like it to stay just like it is.

#18 Gagzila

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Posted November 01 2012 - 05:32 PM

I also was initially of the opinion that Sahara gave an advantage to the team with the height advantage on the AA, but after playing it more and developing evolving strategies when playing from the low end, I find the map plays great and really encourages team work and strategic play...eg. with just myself as a Sharpshooter, I could pretty much lock down the centre choke point that the other team take to get to the AA, denying them their quick route to AA which gave my team mates time to get to AA and organise a defence or ambush. I also took out quite a few of the mechs still attempting to come through that way.

There may be some very fine adjustments that could be made to the map but overall I think it is quite balanced if you actually adapt to your surroundings and don't just play by rote.

Cheers,

Gagzila

Edited by Gagzila, November 01 2012 - 05:34 PM.

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#19 RedVan

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Posted November 01 2012 - 05:36 PM

I agree with the high ground advantage argument.  It's far easier to attack from that side.

#20 Saer

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Posted November 01 2012 - 08:13 PM

Ya, I noticed the same thing the first time I played siege on that map. The difference is quite extreme.




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