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There should be an "unlock everything pass" for around $45

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#1 TrentGTR

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Posted March 10 2014 - 10:24 PM

My idea is you buy a "pass" for around $45 and you will be able to use hawken credits for ALL of the upgrades in the game, including cosmetics such as paint, parts, chassis.

#2 EliteShooter

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Posted March 10 2014 - 11:09 PM

that's too much for them ! I think !

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#3 PhasmaFelis

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Posted March 11 2014 - 12:08 AM

Everyone but the devs agrees with you, I'm sure. How will they keep selling $50 and $100 MC bundles if you can get everything for only $45?

The whole point of free-to-play is that you make a complete game with satisfying progression, and then you break it on purpose and make people pay to fix it, and keep paying to keep it fixed. The only thing that varies is the degree of breakage. A lot of phone/Facebook games make it essentially impossible to progress without regular cash dumps. Games like Hawken still let you progress, but try to keep you balanced on the edge of frustration--just frustrated enough that you'll pay cash to get that stuff that's just out of reach, but not so frustrated that you ragequit and leave forever (or worse yet, badmouth the game to your friends.) Why would they let you pay $45 once and then play free forever after when they can keep nickel-and-diming you again and again and again?

#4 Py687

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Posted March 11 2014 - 12:25 AM

Do you see this?



Hawken is not going to do what you've suggested, and that decision is admirable. If you have any self-respect as a gamer, and any respect for the gaming industry at all, you'll delete this thread and leave in shame.

Edited by Py687, March 11 2014 - 12:26 AM.

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#5 Opicron

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Posted March 11 2014 - 01:13 AM

No there should not be a bundle to unlock everything. I believe that if people buy this bundle, to try every mech. Fail playing it and will stop playing after just a few matches/days.

The road to unlocking everything is progression of skills and learning to play. And it has the nice side effect that people actually stay in the game longer instead of a quick test drive to quick after not getting the hang of it.
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#6 teeth_03

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Posted March 11 2014 - 03:27 AM

I agree that there should be a bundle, but you still have to level up and unlock mech and weapons.

You would get the mechs at the top of the chart, then get the one below it when you get it to level 6. You would automatically get the weapon unlocks when you reached the right level. The Items and Internals would unlock with Pilot rank, you would have unlimited uses of them (at X pilot rank, you unlock Mk1-3 of an Item and you can equip it to as many mechs as you like).

Basically, you buy a game where you no longer have to buy anything that effects game play, but you still have to level everything up to get there.

#7 TrentGTR

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Posted March 11 2014 - 03:50 AM

teeth_03  that is exactly what I think.  Wish this game was pay up front and no micro-transctions. But they decided to go the free to play way.

Edited by TrentGTR, March 11 2014 - 03:52 AM.


#8 PhasmaFelis

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Posted March 11 2014 - 08:24 AM

View PostPy687, on March 11 2014 - 12:25 AM, said:

Do you see this?

Hawken is not going to do what you've suggested, and that decision is admirable. If you have any self-respect as a gamer, and any respect for the gaming industry at all, you'll delete this thread and leave in shame.
What?

No, seriously, what?

P.S. I'm not going to watch a 45-minute video to get context for a three-line post.

Edited by PhasmaFelis, March 11 2014 - 12:19 PM.


#9 Py687

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Posted March 21 2014 - 03:02 PM

View PostPhasmaFelis, on March 11 2014 - 08:24 AM, said:

What?

No, seriously, what?

P.S. I'm not going to watch a 45-minute video to get context for a three-line post.
Your loss. It's a good talk that I'm not going to paraphrase to give context to someone who replied to me in three lines.

Edited by Py687, March 21 2014 - 03:03 PM.

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#10 Eman29

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Posted March 21 2014 - 03:11 PM

View PostPy687, on March 21 2014 - 03:02 PM, said:

View PostPhasmaFelis, on March 11 2014 - 08:24 AM, said:

What?

No, seriously, what?

P.S. I'm not going to watch a 45-minute video to get context for a three-line post.
Your loss. It's a good talk that I'm not going to paraphrase to give context to someone who replied to me in three lines.

Forgive him master. He knows not what he does.
My poem about thine magnificence will be ready by the moon's dawn.
I'll pray thee will spare thine wisdom then.

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#11 Farlanghn

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Posted March 22 2014 - 07:47 AM

It's not your idea. This has been presented multiple times on the forum. Yet you are the low balling the price of everything. People usually say $60.

#12 Ls777

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Posted March 22 2014 - 01:46 PM

View PostPy687, on March 11 2014 - 12:25 AM, said:

Do you see this?

Hawken is not going to do what you've suggested, and that decision is admirable. If you have any self-respect as a gamer, and any respect for the gaming industry at all, you'll delete this thread and leave in shame.

What in the 10hundred literal fuzzy bunnies
I listened to that talk and I all heard was that the f2p model is BAD. It's literally an anti-hawken talk, how can you link that and then call hawken devs admirable.. im not really following the logic here pls explain

Edited by Ls777, March 22 2014 - 01:47 PM.


#13 mccrorie

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Posted March 22 2014 - 02:35 PM

I would easily pay $40 - $60 US fore everything, which in real terms would cost me just over $70 NZD

I'm not going to pay well over $100 to unlock some parts of the game. That fuzzy bunny embarrassing and quite frankly insulting.

#14 AsianJoyKiller

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Posted March 23 2014 - 02:11 AM

View PostPy687, on March 21 2014 - 03:02 PM, said:

Your loss. It's a good talk that I'm not going to paraphrase to give context to someone who replied to me in three lines.
I fail to see how it's our loss. If you can't speak for yourself and let videos talk for you, I don't really see why you're worth conversing with or why we should respect your opinion. As it stands, it appears you can't hold your own in a debate, and the fact that you merely link to a video instead of speaking yourself is a nice little flag that says we should just ignore you.

Feel free to prove me wrong.



For the record, for those of you who think he's low-balling at a price point of around $45 dollars, he really isn't.
All you have to do is look at Tribes: Ascend and SMITE which are both games that have SIGNIFICANTLY more content than Hawken does, with buy-all-content options priced at $30.

And it has been a wildly fantastic success, proving extremely lucrative for HiRez studios.

It works because it is such a great deal, that people who usually wouldn't spend that much money (if any) on a free to play game, are now spending $30 on it. It works because the deal is so good that they've expanded their paying playerbase beyond what is normal. F2P games usually make profit off of a relatively small fraction of the community, but this sort of pricing model means that they're getting people to pay who would normally never pay.

So, you've got your people who would normally pay, because they're okay with that sort of thing. And that's the group that usually sustains a F2P model. They'll buy the package because it's the best deal, which means you've guaranteed $30 out of each of them. Pretty good right?

You'll also get the people who've already paid for a lot of stuff, but then this deal comes around and they're like "**** it, why not?" because they don't want to wait around to finish the grind, or there's cash-only stuff that they don't have which is worth more than the $30. That's a guarenteed $30+ from them.

Here's where it starts to get juicy.

You've got the people who are on the ropes about whether or not it's worth purchasing things, but they've got disposable income. So they spend a few dollars here and there to see if it's worth it. And when you hook the ones who like it, then you've guaranteed more than $30 from them.

Next, you got the stingy people. They buy things, but only when it's a good deal.
Well hey, deals don't get much better than this, so CHA-CHING. More money in the bank.

Then you got people who would rather grind than utilize microtransactions and XP/Credit booster. And fat chance of getting them to buy expensive cosmetic items, what do they care about looking flashy if it costs them 5 bucks a pop? Not worth it, right?
But these guys do buy full games, so you know they'll spend money on something. Dangle this bundle in front of them and there's more customers you've netted, because this is a nice, neat, well-priced package, just like a full game.

Then you've got guys like me. Guys who hate, hate, hate the grind, but realize that XP boosters and the like are a terrible deal, like money-sucking vampires. People who value gameplay as a factor for keeping engaged in a game and not progression for progression's sake. Leveling up and earning weapons gives us no joy. Our bliss is found on the battlefield.
If you've got the gameplay, you've got our $30.

This is why this model works so well.
You get a lot more people paying, and you get them paying a lot more than they normally would, all while making decent profits off of the people who would normally spend money (and while that group ends up spending less, it's made up for in how much the other groups end up spending).

Now, I'm not saying a full Hawken bundle would have to be as low as $30. But the point of this model is to be appealing to a lot of people. Putting it at $50, even $60 is pushing it.

Remember, Hawken is a F2P game, so there is automatically the perception that it is worth less than a game released fully. It doesn't matter if it's better, or if you don't believe that's true, just the perception that the incoming masses see it as a free to play game, and therefor it is not worth as much (If you want to try and go out and change opinions, be my guest, but you're going to be fighting on Hell of a uphill battle, and almost certainly have little to no effect).

Secondly, it's about being a great deal for a full game's worth of content. Not a good deal based on what everything would be worth in terms of their microtransaction prices. Sure, $60 is a great deal compared to $100+ dollars of microtransactions, but that's an abso-****ing-lutely terrible deal for a full game. It is, in fact, no deal. It is par for the course, and when you consider the popular perception that a free-to-play game is automatically worth less than a full game, then you've got many people seeing it as a negative deal (ie: a rip-off). And if these groups of people who would normally not spend that sort of money on a free-to-play title don't see it as a decent deal, then they're not buying it, and you're not getting the money off of them. And that, of course, ruins everything, as it's the whole point of the model.

Think about it in terms of a game like Titanfall, since that's a game people would likely make a comparison with ("Should I spend X amount of money on this mech game, or Y amount of money on that other one?").
If you broke down the content in TF into microtransactions, it would be worth a lot more than it's $60 price point (we're ignoring all the pre-order sort of nonsense). But if you tried to price a full game like that, very few people would buy it. **** just doesn't work.

People expect a full AAA title to be worth $60, so they charge $60 for it. But there's always that rather substantial group of people who are thinking, "Is this really worth $60? I don't really want to pay that much for a game that probably won't be that good."
But if you drop the price, $10-$20, then all of a sudden you've got a lot of people thinking "**** it. Worth a shot."

So think about it that way. What if Hawken was a full game, being sold for $60. What would be a good deal under those circumstances?

That's how this sort of buy-everything model works for free-to-play titles.

Edited by AsianJoyKiller, March 23 2014 - 02:34 AM.

[HWK]HUGHES, on July 03 2013 - 11:07 PM, said:

AJK is right

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#15 RunaPanda

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Posted March 23 2014 - 09:35 AM

View PostTrentGTR, on March 10 2014 - 10:24 PM, said:

My idea is you buy a "pass" for around $45 and you will be able to use hawken credits for ALL of the upgrades in the game, including cosmetics such as paint, parts, chassis.

And let me guess, for $100 you want them to give out the source code too right? There's plenty of lawns that can be mowed, driveways that can be shoveled. Or be still my heart you get a *gasp* part time job. If the Devs give everything in the game away for a certain fee then they'll start to run into deficit against the cost of operations, thus eventually forcing Meteor/Adhesive to file for Chapter 11, and eventually Hawken would be shut down. Regardless of the word "free" in free to play, it still costs developers/publishers money to run the service, if they don't make money then the game dies. There's never been a online game which offered a "buy all pass" because it's not economically viable to make such a thing with a game which has a constant cost.
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#16 AsianJoyKiller

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Posted March 23 2014 - 11:36 AM

View PostRunaPanda, on March 23 2014 - 09:35 AM, said:

View PostTrentGTR, on March 10 2014 - 10:24 PM, said:

My idea is you buy a "pass" for around $45 and you will be able to use hawken credits for ALL of the upgrades in the game, including cosmetics such as paint, parts, chassis.

And let me guess, for $100 you want them to give out the source code too right? There's plenty of lawns that can be mowed, driveways that can be shoveled. Or be still my heart you get a *gasp* part time job. If the Devs give everything in the game away for a certain fee then they'll start to run into deficit against the cost of operations, thus eventually forcing Meteor/Adhesive to file for Chapter 11, and eventually Hawken would be shut down. Regardless of the word "free" in free to play, it still costs developers/publishers money to run the service, if they don't make money then the game dies. There's never been a online game which offered a "buy all pass" because it's not economically viable to make such a thing with a game which has a constant cost.
http://www.amazon.co...e/dp/B00ELJRRRK
http://www.amazon.co...e/dp/B00DW9L3D4

I'm sorry, what were you saying?

EDIT: Not to mention games like CoD, BF, TF are all games that are created content complete and sold as a steady price, which is essentially the same thing as a buy-all package.

Edited by AsianJoyKiller, March 23 2014 - 11:38 AM.

[HWK]HUGHES, on July 03 2013 - 11:07 PM, said:

AJK is right

The Sinful Infil HEAT Cannon Hustler, Cloaking and Smoking, C-Class Swagger, Ballin' n' Brawlin'


#17 RunaPanda

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Posted March 23 2014 - 12:28 PM

View PostAsianJoyKiller, on March 23 2014 - 11:36 AM, said:

View PostRunaPanda, on March 23 2014 - 09:35 AM, said:

View PostTrentGTR, on March 10 2014 - 10:24 PM, said:

My idea is you buy a "pass" for around $45 and you will be able to use hawken credits for ALL of the upgrades in the game, including cosmetics such as paint, parts, chassis.

And let me guess, for $100 you want them to give out the source code too right? There's plenty of lawns that can be mowed, driveways that can be shoveled. Or be still my heart you get a *gasp* part time job. If the Devs give everything in the game away for a certain fee then they'll start to run into deficit against the cost of operations, thus eventually forcing Meteor/Adhesive to file for Chapter 11, and eventually Hawken would be shut down. Regardless of the word "free" in free to play, it still costs developers/publishers money to run the service, if they don't make money then the game dies. There's never been a online game which offered a "buy all pass" because it's not economically viable to make such a thing with a game which has a constant cost.
http://www.amazon.co...e/dp/B00ELJRRRK
http://www.amazon.co...e/dp/B00DW9L3D4

I'm sorry, what were you saying?

EDIT: Not to mention games like CoD, BF, TF are all games that are created content complete and sold as a steady price, which is essentially the same thing as a buy-all package.
Servers need electricity, servers need bandwidth, not to mention the no doubt royalty fees associated with being on steam now. If you don't have a constant cash flow from your players those bills aren't gonna be met. Which will eat at ADH/Meteors bottom line, so even if said package were to even be offered, it wouldn't stay at $45 for very long. I could see a package at maybe $300 or more, but that would need to include the ability to host our own servers.

The key problem your missing between content complete games like those you mentioned and Hawken and similiar dare I say MMO games. Is unlike content complete games, Hawken will have new content created for it over the course of time. Think about how much new content would be created between now and the end of the year. If you were to buy a "buy all" package right now if it was offered, would you not be pissed that you don't get the new content even though you bought the "buy all" package? That's the problem with a package such as this in a game environment like this, Hawken's content changes and evolves over time. This change is what gives online games survivability, so even if such a package were to exist, there would be new content in the upcoming months that you'd still need to pay for. Since the package would no doubt be limited to only concurrent content, not future content.

That's what sets complete content games and Hawken apart, complete content games have all content already made, no additional content is added unless there's some form of a DLC. Hawken however is in a constant evolving state so there is never any set state content. With the current prices, Meteor/ADH would stand to loose a great deal from doing a buy all package, if you were to buy every skin, every thruster, every repair drone, every mech part, every taunt. For just one mech that alone is well over $300, with the current pricing scheme Meteor/ADH stands to make a whooping $5,100 from each player to fully customize every mech in the game. Now think outside of the player end here and think as Meteor's CMO/CFO, which do you stand to profit more over a long term from, $5,100 per player or $45? Logic would say the $5,100. In a business stand point, the bottom line should never be below monthly operating costs, with a price point of $45 for a buy all package there goes money made on HC boosters, XP boosters, individual pilot emblems. Assuming said package would automatically max the pilot level and max each mech rank/level as well as unlock every single cosmetic item within the game, including the old Alpha and Beta skins as well as the new emblem system.

Meteor's bottom line would go well under operating costs nearly overnight. Now ask yourself this, still thinking in the CMO/CFO position, how are we going to make money off our players now? We've given them a package that gives them everything in the game, we have nothing left to sell them. If we create new content they'll just demand it be given free of charge because they bought the buy all package. Get where the problem here is? A buy all package in an evolving state game will never work since your essentially asking the devs to give you their hard work for free.
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#18 AsianJoyKiller

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Posted March 23 2014 - 12:53 PM

View PostRunaPanda, on March 23 2014 - 12:28 PM, said:

Get where the problem here is? A buy all package in an evolving state game will never work since your essentially asking the devs to give you their hard work for free.
Except it has worked.
Did you not click on the links I provided or read my earlier wall of text?

This model has literally worked (and continues to work) in the real world.

Your entire argument that it can't work, will never work and that they'd be giving away too much is completely blown out of the water by the fact that it has worked, continues to work and has managed to be a lucrative business model for free-to-play games that are constantly adding content.

Your also not thinking about who spends the money on what. With Hawken's more traditional mircrotransaction system, the profits comes from a smaller group of people who are willing to pay absurd amounts on a single game. The buy-all model is about making profits off of groups of people who normally don't spend much, if any, money on F2P games.

While technically $5100 per player potentially looks nice, the fact that only a small fraction will ever even come close to even 1/50th of that $5100 really puts a damper on that all. Sure, while logic says that $5100 per person is better than $45 per person, logic also says that virtually nobody will ever spend anything close to $5100, and only a relatively small portion will even spend more than $60 on a free to play title.

So your logic isn't actually all that logical, because the idea that more than a handful of players would ever pay anything nearing $5100 is a gross misrepresentation.

[HWK]HUGHES, on July 03 2013 - 11:07 PM, said:

AJK is right

The Sinful Infil HEAT Cannon Hustler, Cloaking and Smoking, C-Class Swagger, Ballin' n' Brawlin'


#19 Valimer

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Posted March 23 2014 - 12:58 PM

View PostTrentGTR, on March 10 2014 - 10:24 PM, said:

My idea is you buy a "pass" for around $45 and you will be able to use hawken credits for ALL of the upgrades in the game, including cosmetics such as paint, parts, chassis.

I like the idea of "buying the game" at full price. This is appealing to me. However, they will make more money if they do not. There is a real term in the game industry for the players that keep F2P games alive by spending lots of cash. They are called "whales." Whales are the "cash cow" of f2p games and they even out the players who refuse to pay any money no matter what. Over all, the same people that would pay $60 for the full game would also pay over $100 if the option was not available. The $60 "full game" would not effect the players that refuse to spend no or verty little money, it would only effect the whales, who are already willing to pay that much or more on the game.

It is a sad reality, but a reality nontheless.

#20 RunaPanda

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Posted March 23 2014 - 01:09 PM

View PostAsianJoyKiller, on March 23 2014 - 12:53 PM, said:

View PostRunaPanda, on March 23 2014 - 12:28 PM, said:

Get where the problem here is? A buy all package in an evolving state game will never work since your essentially asking the devs to give you their hard work for free.
Except it has worked.
Did you not click on the links I provided or read my earlier wall of text?

This model has literally worked (and continues to work) in the real world.

Your entire argument that it can't work, will never work and that they'd be giving away too much is completely blown out of the water by the fact that it has worked, continues to work and has managed to be a lucrative business model for free-to-play games that are constantly adding content.

Your also not thinking about who spends the money on what. With Hawken's more traditional mircrotransaction system, the profits comes from a smaller group of people who are willing to pay absurd amounts on a single game. The buy-all model is about making profits off of groups of people who normally don't spend much, if any, money on F2P games.

While technically $5100 per player potentially looks nice, the fact that only a small fraction will ever even come close to even 1/50th of that $5100 really puts a damper on that all. Sure, while logic says that $5100 per person is better than $45 per person, logic also says that virtually nobody will ever spend anything close to $5100, and only a relatively small portion will even spend more than $60 on a free to play title.

So your logic isn't actually all that logical, because the idea that more than a handful of players would ever pay anything nearing $5100 is a gross misrepresentation.
The smite offer is a joke, that's game hype for the MMOBomb F2P showdown that's going on. So don't even use that, and Tribes is close to shutting it's doors.

$60 on a free to play title? Sweetie, I dare you to go venture over to Nexon or any other successful MMO publisher, and ask some folks over there how much they've spent. That'll easily be in the thousands if not tens of thousands, fuzzy bunny I can vouch for myself while I was still playing Maplestory I spent well over $7500 on that game, and that was for virtual items that expired in 90 days lol.

But it's pretty clear you can't understand how bad for business such a thing would be nor would it be worth while to even attempt to educate you on business practices and marketing techniques. Since the whole Smite thing just shows your gullible enough to buy into competition hype.

But just to be a fuzzy bunny, I can post a link too.
http://www.mmobomb.c...te-f2p-showdown

Lulz we lost Round 1 to Might & Magic Duel of Champions, yupper we lost to an ONLINE CARD GAME. Maybe now you'll understand the hype packages various publishers are trying to sell right now.
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