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Hellfires: A poor design decision


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#1 Xacius

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Posted November 17 2013 - 10:38 PM

Hellfires have been fuzzy bunny obscene since the Invasion patch.  I don't really like the idea of providing the user with auto-aim capabilities that trump the effectiveness of manually-aimed counterparts.  Take Last Eco, for instance... the team with the most hellfires tends to win because, all the player has to do is lock on, after which their missiles are then auto-aimed to the enemy.  The map is so big that TOWs are seen coming from a mile away, and anyone with a GL in an open area is essentially fresh meat for enemies boasting auto-target alternatives.  


The fuzzy bunny?  Where is the skill or balance in a weapon that aims itself better than most players can manage on their own?  

Buffing the lock-on of Hellfires was not the right idea.  

Instead, the weapon's functional implementation needs an overhaul.  

Step 1: rework the lock-on system.  Give players an indication when they're being locked onto, not when the missiles are already in the air and about to hit them.  What use is a fuzzy bunny "WARNING" indication if it doesn't activate early enough to give the targeted player enough time to react?  Either make the missiles slower or give players an indication before they're launched, but only as they're locked on.  Don't think this is balanced? Continue reading.

Step 2: Allow fired missiles to begin tracking during travel time, not just before.  Hellfire user A fires missiles.  1 second passes and missiles are sent past the target.  Lock-on is acheived, and the missiles curve back around to hit the target.  
Can also work as a mortar if fired vertically and locked on shortly thereafter.  
This change would give Hellfire other means of using their secondary outside of: "hurrr. turget spoted. *mash lock-on*. durrrr. fire!11 *wait for cooldown*  *repeat*"

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Auto-lock weapons in an fps need to have a downside.  Currently, the only downside is when players break line of sight, causing the locked on missiles to curve into a wall.  However, other weapons such as the TOW and GL also share the complications brought about by broken line of sight (wall2stronk), yet still require manual aim and detonation.  


These two proposed changes would push the Hellfires to a state of greater balance, while still retaining the "omglockonmissilesocool" factor.  If you merely buff the lock-on, you make the missiles too strong.  If you nerf it too hard, they'll perform much like they did in the beginning of the Open Beta (too weak).  Multiple factors need to be changed if the weapon is to be balanced properly.  Instead, the way in which the missiles are utilized needs to be re-addressed and redesigned for balance to be achieved.
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#2 ropefish

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Posted November 17 2013 - 10:47 PM

there i have reserved my spot for after i read the wall of text

was about multi lock ?

+

[font=play, helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Can also work as a mortar if fired vertically and locked on shortly thereafter.[/font]

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Edited by ropefish, November 17 2013 - 10:50 PM.

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#3 hestoned

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Posted November 17 2013 - 10:49 PM

hellfires are fine. obviously some mechs are superior on some maps. grenadier on uptown comes to mind.
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#4 ShindaOkami

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Posted November 17 2013 - 10:51 PM

I have to dis agree and with that said with the most respect afforded to any person dead or alive i have to say: LOVE MY HELL FIRE :wub:
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#5 JeffMagnum

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Posted November 17 2013 - 11:02 PM

Yeah, they've really been pissing me off lately on Last Eco, especially because it seems that map was almost designed to cater to Hellfire users. I'm tired of boring stalemates on Eco and Bazaar because of the impossibility of leaving cover or advancing on the enemy without 3+ Hellfire volleys coming toward me, and it's even worse because I know those particular Hellfire users would have no way to halt my movement like that with any other mech besides Rocketeer or Bruiser. If a great SS can lock down the battlefield, then that's completely fine with me--the difference is that being proficient with an SS requires skill and practice, whereas holding MMB, waving the reticle over an enemy, and then pressing RMB half a second later does not.

Edited by JeffMagnum, November 17 2013 - 11:28 PM.


#6 Krellus

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Posted November 17 2013 - 11:12 PM

hellfires are UP if anything, ROF much worse than TOW etc and useless in CQC. good for open spaces and fliers, as they should be.

Edited by Krellus, November 17 2013 - 11:13 PM.


#7 ChubaMecha

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Posted November 17 2013 - 11:14 PM

i see your point xacius and true hellfires are really easy to use once u get the hang of it. it also makes killing run-a-ways easy too :P
i like your suggestions but the way i see it, you want hellfires to lock automatically? what about if they dont? i also think hellfires need a nerf, nobody asked for a buff (i do not know whose idea was it) and heatseeker needs its auto seek nerf too (way to easy hit targets and they are really really good)
btw how many times have u died from hellfires? or how much time have u spent healing because you keep getting hit from them? jk

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#8 CSSS

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Posted November 17 2013 - 11:16 PM

HE HATH SPOKEN

In a much more politely phrased version of my own view.

It's a damn shame that about 1/3 of the people who play this game genuinely like Hellfires. It seems almost inconceivable to me, though.

#9 JeffMagnum

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Posted November 17 2013 - 11:16 PM

View PostKrellus, on November 17 2013 - 11:12 PM, said:

hellfires are...useless in CQC.
Not with the travesty that is the current Failsafe.

#10 dEd101

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Posted November 17 2013 - 11:32 PM

1) I'm going to spam that lock button like crazy but not fire (just to watch the panic).

2) bring on the skillshots!

I actually like hellfires but the latest buff made them a little too good, not omg wtf, but a little too good.

Edited by dEd101, November 18 2013 - 03:48 AM.

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#11 LarryLaffer

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Posted November 17 2013 - 11:35 PM

I think that Hellfires must be balanced both by changing their characteristics and principle of operation and by balancing maps. I don't have so much troubles against HF users on Bazaar as one of open space maps, but on Lost Eco HFs and snipers can really be pain in the arse. The AA on Last Eco is just a freakin' slaughter-house.
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#12 palad1ne

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Posted November 17 2013 - 11:37 PM

First time I couldn't agree with xacius. I think the hellfire lock on fix was urgently needed for the rocketeer. The times where little OP scout and zerker buggerz can easy fuzzy bunny us c mechs apart is now over.
And cmon man, don't tell us that its so hard with a super fast scout to dodge incoming Hellfires. This would be pathetic by all respect.

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#13 AsianJoyKiller

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Posted November 17 2013 - 11:38 PM

I swear...

People who say Hellfires are useless in CQC really, really, reeeaaalllllly need to learn how to dumbfire the things properly.

[HWK]HUGHES, on July 03 2013 - 11:07 PM, said:

AJK is right

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#14 HighCaliber

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Posted November 17 2013 - 11:41 PM

I have to mostly agree with what the OP has posted. There is some skill to the extent when you understand the elastic principle of what edge of your screen to move your cursor to get them curve. Once this is understood, however, this is negligible since it's just about aiming in one of the four quadrants (top/bottom/left/right). There's also the knowing of when to hold a lock for a brief second and shoot around the other side of a pillar, as well as prioritizing locks/canceling locks and dumbfiring. But yes, speaking from a skill-shot aiming perspective, they do all the work for you.


I agree with Step 1, it would make more sense to get a notification when someone actually starts locking on to you with their cursor; however imagine the mindf**kery when you just spam your keybind (mmb for default) most chances you get to make someone paranoid for just being visible to you, lol. You could technically just use it this way to disengage half of the enemy team to make them run (lock-on one, he starts running to a wall, switch to new target, repeat).

Step 2: This would add some creative depth, however I also worry that a target that was well aware of LoS'ing the mech in the first place now has to consider that the hellfire user might shoot the missiles past the wall and hope the mech will come out by then, giving you a second chance opportunity (like a missed tow that can redeem itself).

You could also technically use the designated target's ally to make them curve into him just because you have a lockable target in the direction of where you want them headed. Ex: Scout behind wall, shoot missiles left of wall, see scout's ally right of wall, lock-on at right time, scout eats missiles, profit.

This sounds interesting & scary at the same time. It would definitely make for some awesome plays. Would it be too strong though? Not sure.

Someone also brought up in the past about the idea of having the missiles just follow your mouse movement if you turn on the lock-function. Maybe lose the total lock-on, but allow them to follow your mouse movement once you push the special weapon utility? So that might be an idea worth investigating.

Edit: Grammar/sentence structure.

Edited by HighCaliber, November 17 2013 - 11:46 PM.

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#15 -Tj-

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Posted November 17 2013 - 11:43 PM

I agree with point 1. I've always thought it strange that the alert only sounds after the missiles are fired. I'd actually appreciate a two-stage approach: a light warning first for the initial lock, then a heavy warning for when they're fired.

Point 2 I'm a little on the fence about. I think it might be good if the locked Hellfires could do less damage, while manually tracked Hellfires do more. I wouldn't like the idea of missiles being able to curve back to a target after passing it.

#16 Lucier

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Posted November 18 2013 - 12:16 AM

Step 1 is how I assumed the lock-on warning worked when I was new to the game. I like this idea.

Step 2 confuses me. You say hellfires are currently too good, then you suggest something that would make them more useful than they have ever been. It would be really cool to use, don't get me wrong, but I don't think it would curtail their dominance on maps like last eco at all.

#17 ChubaMecha

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Posted November 18 2013 - 12:17 AM

"a light warning first for the initial lock, then a heavy warning for when they're fired" (quote by -Tj-) i do like suggestion but i feel we will then hear people complaining about how annoying it is that players are locking on to them every 3 secs or how hellfire users cant hit anything because players are running away all the time
how about we give hellfires a little nerf and see what happens, and if it needs another nerf then fine what ever it will take to please some people. they nerf the tech and its heal torch a couple of times why not do it to hellfires :/

Edited by ChubaMecha, November 18 2013 - 12:23 AM.

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#18 fingerknitter

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Posted November 18 2013 - 12:27 AM

So Javelin missiles? Would it still be lock on or would it be fire-and-forget target terrain?

[HWK]ZamboniChaos, on December 10 2013 - 05:29 PM, said:

Sure thing! :D Thanks for being constructive.
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#19 Nept

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Posted November 18 2013 - 12:44 AM

View PostXacius, on November 17 2013 - 10:38 PM, said:

The fuzzy bunny?  Where is the skill or balance in a weapon that aims itself better than most players can manage on their own?  

Buffing the lock-on of Hellfires was not the right idea.
I agree.

View PostXacius, on November 17 2013 - 10:38 PM, said:

Step 1: rework the lock-on system.  Give players an indication when they're being locked onto, not when the missiles are already in the air and about to hit them.  What use is a fuzzy bunny "WARNING" indication if it doesn't activate early enough to give the targeted player enough time to react?  Either make the missiles slower or give players an indication before they're launched, but only as they're locked on.  Don't think this is balanced? Continue reading.
Perhaps a two-stage audio cue: 1) attempting lock-on; 2) missiles released.  Otherwise we'll run into the issue raised by HighCaliber.

View PostXacius, on November 17 2013 - 10:38 PM, said:

Step 2: Allow fired missiles to begin tracking during travel time, not just before.  Hellfire user A fires missiles.  1 second passes and missiles are sent past the target.  Lock-on is acheived, and the missiles curve back around to hit the target.  
Absolutely not.  Anyone who played Planetside 1 and faced the original striker knows how obscenely overpowered this mechanic becomes.  It drastically reduces evasion time and renders escape extremely unlikely.

I'm still partial to the laser-guided system.  Unfortunately, if the developers are intent upon the auto-tracking (because newbies buy them), then that's out the window.

Edited by Nept, November 18 2013 - 12:44 AM.

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#20 Scatapult

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Posted November 18 2013 - 01:08 AM

I do agree the hellfire spam and homing is out of control.

However, I don't think the early warning system you propose would help. In my short time playing a rocketeer, the time I spend between lock-on and firing missiles is a fraction of a second. Maybe other people play differently, but I don't wait around with a lock-on.

Perhaps a better solution would be slower moving missiles, and/or longer lock-on sequence.

Edited by Scatapult, November 18 2013 - 01:08 AM.





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