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Pay to win is a poor Idea

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#1 Th3_M3tal

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Posted March 01 2014 - 12:58 PM

I really love playing this game. Every part of it, with a single exception, speaks to the hardcore gamer in me. I love the leveling, the different match options, and all of the available customization. What I do not like is the attempt to monetize access to performance enhancing add-ons.

I paid for all of the content available and I am not only willing, but looking forward to exploring all of the available content. I have to say that I will be disappointed if anyone with  a lot of money will be able to "buy" all of the things that I have worked within the framework of the game to get. This creates an imbalance that will ultimately cause this platform to fail.

During the early access I understand asking players to contribute to the continued development of this game. In the event that these micro trans actions continue after launch I predict that interest in this game will disappear.

Please make the pay to win aspect go away. It ruins the rest of what is a great  and truly fun game.

#2 Gunmoku

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Posted March 01 2014 - 01:00 PM

Hawken isn't pay-to-win.  It's a convenience measure.  Pay-to-win would be buying something from a F2P model that holds a significant advantage over all other unlockables only available for real money.  That isn't here.

View PostRED_FIVE, on September 04 2013 - 08:20 PM, said:

YER A RAIDER, HARRY.

#3 Zaxik

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Posted March 01 2014 - 01:04 PM

Here we go again... I've paid less than 10 euro and all the cash have been thrown to cosmetics. I haven't bought a single piece of gear, I grinded it all, without boosters. And my win rate is something a little above 60%. Come again and say it's pay2win.
Got few Hawken vids here on my YT.

#4 Th3_M3tal

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Posted March 01 2014 - 01:05 PM

View PostGunmoku, on March 01 2014 - 01:00 PM, said:

Hawken isn't pay-to-win.  It's a convenience measure.  Pay-to-win would be buying something from a F2P model that holds a significant advantage over all other unlockables only available for real money.  That isn't here.

What do meteor points get you? and how are acquired?
As far as I can tell they are acquired with real money, that is not refundable under any circumstances, and they are used for various upgrades to ingame play that are well beyond cosmetic.

Please explain how this is different from the F2P model.

#5 Th3_M3tal

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Posted March 01 2014 - 01:06 PM

View PostZaxik, on March 01 2014 - 01:04 PM, said:

Here we go again... I've paid less than 10 euro and all the cash have been thrown to cosmetics. I haven't bought a single piece of gear, I grinded it all, without boosters. And my win rate is something a little above 60%. Come again and say it's pay2win.

Without Meteor points you can't get any of the crit upgrades. If you know a way to get Meteor points by grinding I'm all ears.

And clearly you have missed all of the "Click here to BUY credits" options an every page of this website and in game...

Edited by Th3_M3tal, March 01 2014 - 01:10 PM.


#6 Pure_Amazing

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Posted March 01 2014 - 01:08 PM

View PostTh3_M3tal, on March 01 2014 - 01:06 PM, said:

View PostZaxik, on March 01 2014 - 01:04 PM, said:

Here we go again... I've paid less than 10 euro and all the cash have been thrown to cosmetics. I haven't bought a single piece of gear, I grinded it all, without boosters. And my win rate is something a little above 60%. Come again and say it's pay2win.

Without Meteor points you can't get any of the crit upgrades. If you know a way to get Meteor points by grinding I'm all ears.

Hawken Credits, you grind them and then spend them on internals, items and mechs. Anything that has an effect on gameplay.

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View PostAregon, on May 19 2014 - 05:22 AM, said:

And we all know that if Pure first dislikes anything nothing will change that.


#7 Zaxik

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Posted March 01 2014 - 01:08 PM

View PostTh3_M3tal, on March 01 2014 - 01:06 PM, said:

View PostZaxik, on March 01 2014 - 01:04 PM, said:

Here we go again... I've paid less than 10 euro and all the cash have been thrown to cosmetics. I haven't bought a single piece of gear, I grinded it all, without boosters. And my win rate is something a little above 60%. Come again and say it's pay2win.

Without Meteor points you can't get any of the crit upgrades. If you know a way to get Meteor points by grinding I'm all ears.
You don't need MC to buy gear. Grind HC and buy gear with that. Show me one game that uses F2P model and gives you everything out of the box without grinding.
Got few Hawken vids here on my YT.

#8 xXHadronCutterXx

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Posted March 01 2014 - 01:09 PM

View PostTh3_M3tal, on March 01 2014 - 01:05 PM, said:

View PostGunmoku, on March 01 2014 - 01:00 PM, said:

Hawken isn't pay-to-win.  It's a convenience measure.  Pay-to-win would be buying something from a F2P model that holds a significant advantage over all other unlockables only available for real money.  That isn't here.

What do meteor points get you? and how are acquired?
As far as I can tell they are acquired with real money, that is not refundable under any circumstances, and they are used for various upgrades to ingame play that are well beyond cosmetic.

Please explain how this is different from the F2P model.

Because you can unlock everything besides 80% of cosmetics with the ingame currency (HC) which you earn by playing matches. You can buy those same things with Meteor Credits aka real money, but really, you're just getting it quicker than you normally would and that's the only advantage really, it's for those that don't have the time/patience to grind and can instantly get something you and I normally would unlock after a few hours of grinding. Is this really an advantage? No, not really.

Get your hard on.


#9 Th3_M3tal

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Posted March 01 2014 - 01:12 PM

View PostxXHadroncutterXx, on March 01 2014 - 01:09 PM, said:

View PostTh3_M3tal, on March 01 2014 - 01:05 PM, said:

View PostGunmoku, on March 01 2014 - 01:00 PM, said:

Hawken isn't pay-to-win.  It's a convenience measure.  Pay-to-win would be buying something from a F2P model that holds a significant advantage over all other unlockables only available for real money.  That isn't here.

What do meteor points get you? and how are acquired?
As far as I can tell they are acquired with real money, that is not refundable under any circumstances, and they are used for various upgrades to ingame play that are well beyond cosmetic.

Please explain how this is different from the F2P model.

Because you can unlock everything besides 80% of cosmetics with the ingame currency (HC) which you earn by playing matches. You can buy those same things with Meteor Credits aka real money, but really, you're just getting it quicker than you normally would and that's the only advantage really, it's for those that don't have the time/patience to grind and can instantly get something you and I normally would unlock after a few hours of grinding. Is this really an advantage? No, not really.

Ok but you are also able to purchase MC and bypass the grind. That defines Pay to win.

#10 phed

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Posted March 01 2014 - 01:13 PM

i think this may be another misunderstanding caused by the ui's ambiguity regarding purchases.

when it says something like :
buy for hc 12535
buy for mc 1440

what it really means is:
buy for hc 12535
or
buy for mc 1440

hope that helps

#11 SparkyJJC

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Posted March 01 2014 - 01:14 PM

Posted Image

We've discussed this plenty of times now.
The definition of pay-to-win is:
Paying money to gain an advantage over other players which normally they wouldn't be able to get without paying.
The only thing you can spend meteor credits on are the chassis parts (which make no difference to the mech's play style WHATSOEVER) and the early access to weapons, internals, and items. While it's true that you can pay to unlock the weapons, internals and items earlier, this is not pay-to-win, this is pay-to-not-grind/play, considering you can unlock every single weapon in the game without spending a penny.
Please, know the facts before you post this.

Edited by SparkyJJC, March 01 2014 - 01:17 PM.

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#12 Zaxik

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Posted March 01 2014 - 01:15 PM

View PostTh3_M3tal, on March 01 2014 - 01:12 PM, said:

Ok but you are also able to purchase MC and bypass the grind. That defines Pay to win.
Bypassing grind by paying isn't pay2win! It's pay2not grind! See the difference? AGAIN! Show me ONE SINGLE F2P game that lets you have everything without grinding!
Got few Hawken vids here on my YT.

#13 Th3_M3tal

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Posted March 01 2014 - 01:18 PM

I want to say again I really like this game. and I also recognize there are some barriers to simply buying your way into the top of the leader boards. It just rubs me the wrong way when I want to grind it out and win and somebody can just bypass all of it with money. I think there is a fine line and the Hawken team is trying to balance on it.

It looks like a money grab and I think they are being too aggressive about it.

#14 Th3_M3tal

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Posted March 01 2014 - 01:20 PM

View PostSparkyJJC, on March 01 2014 - 01:14 PM, said:

Posted Image

We've discussed this plenty of times now.
The definition of pay-to-win is:
Paying money to gain an advantage over other players which normally they wouldn't be able to get without paying.
The only thing you can spend meteor credits on are the chassis parts (which make no difference to the mech's play style WHATSOEVER) and the early access to weapons, internals, and items. While it's true that you can pay to unlock the weapons, internals and items earlier, this is not pay-to-win, this is pay-to-not-grind/play, considering you can unlock every single weapon in the game without spending a penny.
Please, know the facts before you post this.

Thanks for adding that line I think it really clears things up.

#15 nokari

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Posted March 01 2014 - 01:20 PM

Besides the obvious "This is NOT P2W" fact, you spent money for a ton of content and now you're upset that anyone else could spend money on the game to get content? That makes no sense.

View PostTh3_M3tal, on March 01 2014 - 01:12 PM, said:

Ok but you are also able to purchase MC and bypass the grind. That defines Pay to win.

This is not Pay-to-Win, that is Pay-to-not-grind-as-much- or Pay-for-convenience. There is nothing in the game that you can buy that will give you an inherent winning advantage over other players. They are options in play style. You can play the game with the starter mech and never buy any items, internals, or alternate weapons and still win. Because this is not a game about who has the best mechs or weapons at all, it's a game of skill.

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#16 nokari

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Posted March 01 2014 - 01:22 PM

View PostTh3_M3tal, on March 01 2014 - 01:18 PM, said:

I want to say again I really like this game. and I also recognize there are some barriers to simply buying your way into the top of the leader boards. It just rubs me the wrong way when I want to grind it out and win and somebody can just bypass all of it with money. I think there is a fine line and the Hawken team is trying to balance on it.

It looks like a money grab and I think they are being too aggressive about it.

There are no leader boards in this game.
There is no bypassing to win with money.

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#17 SparkyJJC

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Posted March 01 2014 - 01:22 PM

View PostTh3_M3tal, on March 01 2014 - 01:18 PM, said:

It looks like a money grab and I think they are being too aggressive about it.

Posted Image

Adhesive are doing what every other pay-to-not-grind company are doing: Simply stating you can pay if you want.
How exactly are they being to aggressive, might I ask?

View PostTh3_M3tal, on March 01 2014 - 01:12 PM, said:

Ok but you are also able to purchase MC and bypass the grind. That defines Pay to win.

No. That's pay-to-not-grind. Pay-to-win is paying to have an advantage over other players that otherwise wouldn't be obtainable without paying money.

Edited by SparkyJJC, March 01 2014 - 01:25 PM.

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#18 Th3_M3tal

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Posted March 01 2014 - 01:25 PM

What is the point of playing a game if everyone does not have to follow the same rules and guidelines. Buying early access is nothing short of cheating. It's the same as using a hex editor to level up, and it is paying for advantage. I was trying to find some actual input about this but all this "Oh this again" BS is making me realize that I should have saved my money.

You sir are rude.

#19 Th3_M3tal

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Posted March 01 2014 - 01:29 PM

View PostSparkyJJC, on March 01 2014 - 01:22 PM, said:

View PostTh3_M3tal, on March 01 2014 - 01:18 PM, said:

It looks like a money grab and I think they are being too aggressive about it.

Posted Image

Adhesive are doing what every other pay-to-not-grind company are doing: Simply stating you can pay if you want.
How exactly are they being to aggressive, might I ask?

View PostTh3_M3tal, on March 01 2014 - 01:12 PM, said:

Ok but you are also able to purchase MC and bypass the grind. That defines Pay to win.

No. That's pay-to-not-grind. Pay-to-win is paying to have an advantage over other players that otherwise wouldn't be obtainable without paying money.

Pay not to grind is the same as cheat. You guys are making it perfectly clear that you think it's ok to shortcut into the leader boards. It's not that funny and it's a poor business model.

#20 Xynno

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Posted March 01 2014 - 01:30 PM

Aside everything that has already been said, theres also the fact the first mech you get, the crt recruit is more than capable of going toe to toe with any mech in the game and coming out on top provided you're skilled enough.





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