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Spamming items, EMP, MG TURRET, REPAIR CHARGE.


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#1 KaszaWspraju

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Posted January 08 2013 - 06:09 AM

Watching in the third episode http://pl.twitch.tv/...pit/b/351432171 (0.52.21) Notkjell said the count, multiple items is stupid. I agree with this opinion, it is the direct cause of this renewable items. In this way there is always this possibility of we put six turrets, six EMP, six repair charge. The option that we do not have to worry about a thing when we use, because in a few seconds you will be ready to use again, is the cause of spam. This also gives the advantage better players.

I think we should go back to option one item on one life.

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#2 RedVan

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Posted January 08 2013 - 06:22 AM

A few seconds?  My timer starts at like, 1.5 min or so.  How u get a few seconds???  I disbelief you.

What I do belief is that they aren't spammy due to the countdown timer.  What you're probably witnessing is multiple people using the same item in a short period of time.  That wont be fixed by making it 1 item/life.

And items dont give advantages to better players.  All players have items, if you suck and use it wrong, that's your fault.  Better players just know how to properly employ their items.

Edited by RedVan, January 08 2013 - 06:25 AM.


#3 Atlanis

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Posted January 08 2013 - 06:23 AM

The cooldowns are all long enough that the items cannot be used more than once per 2-4 engagements (depending on length and whether people play aggressively or defensively). In general, if you are surviving past 4 engagements, it is because you're a good player. You would have done the same if it were limited, because everyone else would be dealing with the same limitations.

That isn't to say that items as-is are perfect (far from it), but putting them at one use per life would be, well, boring. It would penalize you for doing well and not dying. Imagine a TDM match where one team is doing well, with almost no one dying. They can't use their items now because they already used them once, while the other team that is repeatedly getting killed is being rewarded for it by having their items refreshed. This mechanic would be greatly conflicting.

As it stands now, if your items are down you play more defensively. If your items are up you play more aggressively. This adds variety and somewhat of a rhythm to the gameplay. Now, imagine if the items were once-per-life. This would lead to people always being aggressive or almost always (post-item use) being defensive. They'd use their items, then have no reason to play defensively.

Imagine another hypothetical TDM. Both teams are roughly equal in skill. Players use their items strategically and in what would generally be considered good plays. Then what? Either they would become stuck in the defensive no-item mode (boring both for players and spectators), or they would continue to be aggressive despite the lack of items because death would reward them.

Then, there is the problem of reduced balance vectors. With item cooldowns, you are able to say 'this item does more up-front damage, but takes longer to recharge' or 'this item gives weak zone control, but the cooldown is relatively low to make up for it'. If they were usable once per life, that would remove that form of variety in items and reduce the possible methods through which the team could balance them yet maintain their interesting differences.

tl;dr no

#4 defekt

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Posted January 08 2013 - 06:27 AM

Can of worms re-opened.  :)

I was against regenerating items when the idea was first mooted.

I liked that finite items encouraged careful use and sometimes afforded the ‘losing’ side a way back into a game.  Others commented that finite items would encourage suiciding in higher level play but IMO no set of items would be worth that; additionally, that is more of an issue with the way suiciding is handled in the game, i.e., by not awarding credit to anyone, than much to do with finite items.

On balance, I am still against regenerating items.

#5 Dread_Lord_Pitr

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Posted January 08 2013 - 06:29 AM

View PostKaszaWspraju, on January 08 2013 - 06:09 AM, said:

Watching in the third episode http://pl.twitch.tv/...pit/b/351432171 (0.52.21) Notkjell said the count, multiple items is stupid. I agree with this opinion, it is the direct cause of this renewable items. In this way there is always this possibility of we put six turrets, six EMP, six repair charge. The option that we do not have to worry about a thing when we use, because in a few seconds you will be ready to use again, is the cause of spam. This also gives the advantage better players.

I think we should go back to option one item on one life.

Actually we didn't just have one item per life; some items had 2 or more uses (shields and regen orbs), and we had more item slots alltogether.
Unles we'd revert all the way to the 3 item slot system and the completely old way of how things were, i'd say no to any change.

Edited by Dread_Lord_Pitr, January 08 2013 - 06:30 AM.

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#6 GunsnButter

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Posted January 08 2013 - 06:38 AM

atlantis hit it on the nose. regenerating items encourage good play and not suicide tactics.

#7 KaszaWspraju

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Posted January 08 2013 - 06:42 AM

Quote

A few seconds?  My timer starts at like, 1.5 min or so.  How u get a few seconds???  I disbelief you.

Effect achieved, I deliberately used the term "few" to strengthen statement. ;)

Just for the third items that I mentioned, cooldowns are not so big that a good player did not survive to the next use.

Edited by KaszaWspraju, January 08 2013 - 06:45 AM.

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@ defekt : Mobility is King and burst damage is Queen. Checkmate.
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#8 RedVan

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Posted January 08 2013 - 06:46 AM

View PostKaszaWspraju, on January 08 2013 - 06:42 AM, said:

Quote

A few seconds?  My timer starts at like, 1.5 min or so.  How u get a few seconds???  I disbelief you.

Effect achieved, I deliberately used the term "few" to strengthen statement. ;)

It didn't strengthen your statement, it made your statement look inaccurate ;)

#9 h0B0

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Posted January 08 2013 - 06:52 AM

Atlantis made me rethink my position.

Click me! I dare you.

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View Post[HWK]HUGHES, on March 15 2013 - 08:35 PM, said:

Oh don't always listen to h0B0. Lol.


#10 D20Face

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Posted January 08 2013 - 06:56 AM

I loved the old item system.

It made you seriously consider the worth of using your item in any given engagement.

Since we're down to 2 slots instead of 3 I'd probably say make most items 2 uses with some(shield/HE) 3 instead of the way it was before, but finite items was more fun.

#11 GunsnButter

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Posted January 08 2013 - 07:25 AM

To elaborate, I'm noticing that in maybe half to 1/3 of my fights as a grenadier I have my HE charge up, and that's a very quick 1-2-3 combo to knock an a-class completely down from full or to butcher a b-class in a heartbeat. When I'm having to take on 3 guys at a time, all of whom will always have their items because they just spawned, I'm happy to know that my HE charge will be back up for the next fight because my teammates saved mah balls again.

Edited by GunsnButter, January 08 2013 - 07:25 AM.


#12 ReachH

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Posted January 08 2013 - 07:46 AM

Items should have their charges collected on the map. Maybe fueled by kills. Maybe by EU.

View Post[HWK]HUGHES, on October 23 2013 - 06:01 PM, said:

Development happens.


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#13 Cypherhalo

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Posted January 08 2013 - 07:51 AM

I'm sorry but what you call spamming items, I call using them.  I greatly prefer their current system over the 1 item 1 life system because I felt like that made items irrelevant, particularly the HE Charge.  That thing is hard enough to hit with as is.  Yeah, I get annoyed when people drop like 3 MG turrets too and maybe the devs can look into somehow working on that, but the current cooldown system works fine IMO.  If anything I wish the cooldown on the HE was lower.  Turrets are ok as is and the EMP maybe should have a longer cooldown, maybe.  That's my two cents, I don't like the 1 item 1 life.
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#14 ReachH

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Posted January 08 2013 - 07:53 AM

F*** it, just remove offensive items.

View Post[HWK]HUGHES, on October 23 2013 - 06:01 PM, said:

Development happens.


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#15 Karaipantsu

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Posted January 08 2013 - 08:18 AM

Yes, further restrict options.  That's always a good idea.

Also, turrets last longer than their cooldown, but if you plant a new one it destroys the old, so you can't spam TOO hard.  And it doesn't change the fact that if a group of people cluster them up for spam effects, you can rocket them down pretty easily.

Recharging items is the superior system, for pretty much all the reasons Atlantis stated.  It encourages use instead of hoarding, and doesn't encourage suicide tactics to replenish offensive items.

#16 KaszaWspraju

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Posted January 08 2013 - 08:23 AM

Quote

Yeah, I get annoyed when people drop like 3 MG turrets too and maybe the devs can look into somehow working on that, but the current cooldown system works fine IMO
The only method (imho) currently solve this problem is the introduction of restrictions on the number of eg turrets raised at a time, which is not fair to all players who have the turret in the match.

Edited by KaszaWspraju, January 08 2013 - 08:24 AM.

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@ defekt : Mobility is King and burst damage is Queen. Checkmate.
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#17 LunaticCalm

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Posted January 08 2013 - 08:24 AM

On the other hand, single use per life naturally gives the losing team a little advantage, creating a light "catch up" mechanism. These are common in games to help create more interesting and suspenseful games. Think LoL, where the further you push into enemy territory the longer it takes your guys to get back to the front lines after dying, giving a little help to the losing team.

Edited by LunaticCalm, January 08 2013 - 08:31 AM.


#18 KaszaWspraju

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Posted January 08 2013 - 08:31 AM

View PostLunaticCalm, on January 08 2013 - 08:24 AM, said:

On the other hand, single use per life naturally gives the losing team a little advantage, creating a light "catch up" mechanism.
This applies to every game, one player has used all the grants, first aid kit, stamina, manna, and you have not.

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@ defekt : Mobility is King and burst damage is Queen. Checkmate.
Gdy byłem młodszy byłem bardziej beztroski... aha... nie lubię już POLSKI !


#19 LunaticCalm

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Posted January 08 2013 - 08:34 AM

It applies less so to hawken though. Every mech has access to a rapid, complete heal. You have infinite ammo. You don't have to push into enemy territory to win.

Edited by LunaticCalm, January 08 2013 - 08:40 AM.


#20 Kai_Kitamura

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Posted January 08 2013 - 08:51 AM

I prefer the new item system. Double HE charge seriously wrecked your bunnies and the items while useful, I don't think were ever good enough to allow a "comeback" for the losing team. Right now about the only item I use more than once per life is the repair charge, and that's because I'm really impatient.
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