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Learning the Scout - Questions for the more experienced


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#1 Sethendal

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Posted March 25 2013 - 08:59 AM

Based on my play-style in other PC FPS games, I quickly grew fond of the scout during the recent test-drive offered and made it my first "purchase".

Reading through the tips & tricks and some of the other sprinkled posts on the scout, I've been trying to better my piloting skills as I've started to realize I've hit a wall in terms of my skill with the scout and having participated in many matches with some incredible scout pilots, I'm quickly realizing I'm doing something wrong.

I thought I'd start a thread to see if any of you more experienced/skilled pilots could weigh in on some sage advice on how to approach the scout and offer a record of what a newbie finds in his first few weeks.

Some of the obstacles I'm running against that I'm positive are my own doing are:
  • Mini Flak Canon: I've read in the tips that this is a high-burst CQC weapon but in my short experience, I seem to be unable to make any headway in CQC fights.  My guess is my aim, circle-strafing and "calm" during CQC needs some work but I was curious if there's a known tip for using this weapon as it seems even in CQC, I feel my damage output is pretty small.
  • Trees & Outfitting: Is there an optimal outfitting I should be using? I've tried to model after some of the tip threads here for my primary/secondary items (Detonator/Radar) and internals (repair, ammo, fuel gen). As well, I've gone mostly Movement tree with 2 points in the Defense dodge.
  • Movement: I'm still struggling with the timing / cooldown of fuel & dodge as this is usually the largest reason I get myself in trouble is being overconfident in my ability to escape (read: bravado).  Not sure there's a best practice for this other than learning the timing but I know that the first hard lesson I learned was that you can't fire during a forward boost.  Pretty sure that's something that I have to continue to remind myself of.
Again, any advice you can offer is greatly appreciated.  This community seems incredibly helpful to one another which is a huge draw for me and I hope that I'm not just adding more noise to the forums with the above.

(tl:dr: Request for Scout advice/critique for a newb)

Thanks!

Edited by Sethendal, March 25 2013 - 09:01 AM.

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#2 StephenHawking

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Posted March 25 2013 - 09:09 AM

From my experience Mini-Flak is more of a sustained DPS rather than burst DPS. Flak Cannon is where your burst DPS is coming from for the Scout (in regards to hitscan weapons). I prefer the Flak Cannon.
The repair optimizations in the defense tree are good.
As for movement in my experience I tend to try and bait targets and play "peekaboo" as they say. Read: I deny line of site for my opponent until both my weapons are ready to fire then I time the TOW and Flak shot and return to denying line of site. At least in theory.
Though I'm sure using the search function would have turned up a lot more.

#3 Alastor_Crow

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Posted March 25 2013 - 09:11 AM

Mini Flak is high sustained DPS in CQC. That means you have to keep a steady stream of aimed fire at the enemy.
Flak is the one you want for burst DPS. Also best for CQC, especially with lots of cover.
Heat Cannon, same as Flak playstyle..sorta. Just aim at their feet.

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#4 Beefsweat

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Posted March 25 2013 - 09:11 AM

Look up wolfy's "advanced movement" videos.
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#5 FussyBadger

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Posted March 25 2013 - 09:13 AM

I'm not super experienced, so take this with a grain of salt:

- Flak Cannon (unlocked at level 4) offers some advantage over the Mini-Flak. The slower rate of fire make it more of a "pop and shoot" like the TOW and it does excellent damage. I found myself using the Mini-Flak kind of like the SMC and it felt ineffective. Someone recommended I switch to the Flak Cannon and I haven't looked back. The range blows but it's awesome up close.

- Trees & Outfitting: Sounds fine there. I haven't bought any internals yet and I'm still standing.

- Movement: A key tip that I picked up was being mindful of fuel use BEFORE a fight. It's easy to use up a lot of fuel when you respawn trying to get back into the action quick, only to find that you're down to 1/4 tank or less when you really need it. Make sure you're closer to full before engaging. Unless I'm going into a cluster of enemies, a full tank is usually just fine for 1-2, leaving the extra fuel reserves ability in my pocket for emergencies.

Timing of your dodges and map awareness pay big dividends, as well.

#6 Zerjack

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Posted March 25 2013 - 09:28 AM

I had the exact same problem last week. Then I bought a berserker and everything went great. Think about the scout as a TF2 force-a-nature, or scattergun scout. And then think about the berserker as a shortstop scout. The idea of a scout is actually mostly to scout, and do some hit-and-run damage, mostly to soften the enemy. From what I've read. The Mini Flak is not what it used to be. The berserker is most like trying to do the most damage before dying. I've always played like a reckless scout on TF2, so I have found that berserker fits my style better. You should give it a try.

#7 Sethendal

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Posted March 25 2013 - 10:22 AM

View PostStephenHawking, on March 25 2013 - 09:09 AM, said:

From my experience Mini-Flak is more of a sustained DPS rather than burst DPS. Flak Cannon is where your burst DPS is coming from for the Scout (in regards to hitscan weapons). I prefer the Flak Cannon.

View PostAlastor_Crow, on March 25 2013 - 09:11 AM, said:

Mini Flak is high sustained DPS in CQC. That means you have to keep a steady stream of aimed fire at the enemy.
Flak is the one you want for burst DPS. Also best for CQC, especially with lots of cover.
Heat Cannon, same as Flak playstyle..sorta. Just aim at their feet.

Reading what you and Alastor_Crow wrote, I've totally been misusing the Flak canons as I realize now I glossed over the tips & tricks thread that calls out the flak specifically in that role.  Was wondering why I wasn't seeing chunks of steel fly off in CQC with the mini-flak.

View PostStephenHawking, on March 25 2013 - 09:09 AM, said:

As for movement in my experience I tend to try and bait targets and play "peekaboo" as they say. Read: I deny line of site for my opponent until both my weapons are ready to fire then I time the TOW and Flak shot and return to denying line of site. At least in theory.

Good call.  I tend to forget to watch my cooldowns or end up scraping a wall/stumbling in/out of cover.  

View PostFussyBadger, on March 25 2013 - 09:13 AM, said:

Timing of your dodges and map awareness pay big dividends, as well.

Really good point there I hadn't thought about.  I can't count how many times I've rushed after a low-health "free kill" only to have him drag me around a corner to his much larger/angry buddies.

Edited by Sethendal, March 25 2013 - 10:22 AM.

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#8 Sethendal

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Posted March 25 2013 - 10:24 AM

View PostZerjack, on March 25 2013 - 09:28 AM, said:

I had the exact same problem last week. Then I bought a berserker and everything went great. Think about the scout as a TF2 force-a-nature, or scattergun scout. And then think about the berserker as a shortstop scout. The idea of a scout is actually mostly to scout, and do some hit-and-run damage, mostly to soften the enemy. From what I've read. The Mini Flak is not what it used to be. The berserker is most like trying to do the most damage before dying. I've always played like a reckless scout on TF2, so I have found that berserker fits my style better. You should give it a try.

Thanks for this.  Really good comparison as that's also my favorite class in TF2 (Shortstop Scout).  I'll have to give the Berserker a try as soon as I get enough extra HC!   The Mini-Flak requiring such sustained aim in CQC is a lot like the scattergun which I'm notably terrible at. :)

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#9 space_

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Posted March 25 2013 - 11:52 AM

Get to lvl 25 and use the heat cannon.  Most of those great scout pilots are running heat scout I'm sure.  Also use detonator.
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#10 RentAKnight

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Posted March 26 2013 - 07:40 AM

Recorded this video last night.  Three Flak Scout TDM's 2100 MMR server at times.  I do a sort of stream of consciousness commentary, not really pointing out anything specific.  The first game is short not much there, the middle one is the best, and third one is ok.

disclaimer: I often choose not to play as a team and like to rambo.  I don't suggest doing this at lower level games as it often results in dying a lot while allowing your teammates to be outnumbered.  I personally enjoy 1v2/3 situations as I find them more thrilling.




After heat got nerfed I've gone back to flak scout as the damage is more consistent and reliable also allows for more twitch aiming (to whatever extent you can twitch aim in hawken) and because you aim directly ON your target it doesn't momentarily mess up your TOW aim like the heat does.

miniflak is underwhelming as it requires sustainable fire at medium range to be viable, which is not the way that I like to play.  I haven't spent a lot of time trying to make it work so I won't say it's useless outright.

The things that I do in these games to be successful are really general gameplay tactics that can be applied to any mech.  Using/abusing the radar (pre-firing projectiles whenever you can), abusing superior movement techniques around cover (L and R dodging), and kiting opponents.

The few scout specific things I'll mention are saving your fuel ability for the oh buzzy funny moments, and learning how to aim the TOW to maximize damage potential.  I have a few great escapes in both the second and third matches where I get down to 100 HP and successfully evade 2-3 enemies by using the fuel ability.  Always shoot the TOW toward the feet of the enemy mech so that if you miss time the detonate it'l still explode on the ground for decent damage.

Scout is all about burst; peek, unload your alpha, then move around until your TOW is off CD, then peek and unload again.  Repeat until your target dies or you need to retreat.  While retreating be sure to kite the pursuing target by firing at him as he breaks corners, then retreat more.

Heal whenever you can as it only takes ~5-10 seconds to get to full HP.  If your opponent doesn't heal mid fight you can easily rush him.  Also after an opponent knows that you like to heal, you can start fake healing where you get them to rush you.  This sets up easy detonator alphas.

I'd be happy to ask questions about my gameplay, or to make future tutorials regarding specific mechanics.

Edited by RentAKnight, March 26 2013 - 10:09 AM.

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#11 FussyBadger

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Posted March 26 2013 - 09:13 AM

Great video, Rent. By the way, I've found that the "notification" bit on the forums here works fine on any page other than the forum index page. Example: click "new" to see the new posts and it works on that page.

#12 DaPheel

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Posted March 26 2013 - 09:35 AM

Keep moving is one of the main tips I'd give - even when your team is taking cover, just keep circling. You are the angry Bee!

Also - stick tight to your group, act like their angry pitbull, and bite anyone who gets too close.

Edited by DaPheel, March 26 2013 - 09:36 AM.

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#13 Analysis

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Posted March 26 2013 - 09:57 AM

View PostRentAKnight, on March 26 2013 - 07:40 AM, said:

Recorded this video last night.  Three Flak Scout TDM's 2100 MMR server at times.  I do a sort of stream of consciousness commentary, not really pointing out anything specific.  The first game is short not much there, the middle one is the best, and third one is ok.


Best part of the video 3:11-3:22. Who is that scout?

My best advice is always keep moving and don't be afraid of going vertical with jets. Some people will say using jump jets will make you an easy target, but if you use it in moderation the technique can be quite good. The game is extremely slow when you are out of fuel(strafing doesn't exist in this game). No fuel means you will die to everyone. Mix in a forward thruster after a dodge to minimize down time.

#14 Null_Wing

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Posted March 26 2013 - 10:26 AM

View PostAnalysis, on March 26 2013 - 09:57 AM, said:

View PostRentAKnight, on March 26 2013 - 07:40 AM, said:

Recorded this video last night.  Three Flak Scout TDM's 2100 MMR server at times.  I do a sort of stream of consciousness commentary, not really pointing out anything specific.  The first game is short not much there, the middle one is the best, and third one is ok.


Best part of the video 3:11-3:22. Who is that scout?

My best advice is always keep moving and don't be afraid of going vertical with jets. Some people will say using jump jets will make you an easy target, but if you use it in moderation the technique can be quite good. The game is extremely slow when you are out of fuel(strafing doesn't exist in this game). No fuel means you will die to everyone. Mix in a forward thruster after a dodge to minimize down time.
yeah, a quick bunny hop can do you good if timed right. What I shake my head at (and sometimes a facepalm) is when I see players fly around like they think they're in giant mechanical birds

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