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Rental Vs Hawken's Permanent buy system


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#1 Hipnox

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Posted October 26 2012 - 11:46 PM

I've only played for a few hours, finished a few matches, and i'm already seeing a big problem with the current item shop system.

I'm a former Combat Arms player and at the time i dreaded the rental system. You leave town for a couple of days and come back only to find your character butt naked with all the default stuff and all your cool gear expired. I wanted a permanent buy system.

Hawken has just that, but brings a totally different problem to the table:

The prices for permanent items are too damn high.

That's not because i'm whining that i cant get all the cool stuff 2 hours into the game, it's because these high prices make it impossible to TEST or TRY gear. Each purchase has you committing a ton of points, which can only come from days or weeks of accumulated grinding playing. So if you buy an item or mech, you better use it, cause they cost and arm an a leg.

What if you don't like it? What if you decide you want to try a sniper mech, buy a Sharpshooter, and later find that you are really not attracted to the Sabot rifle? You just spent 9.200 HP on a mech on a secondary weapon you don't really want to use.

At an average of 60 HP a round (mediocre player) you are looking at approximately 150 full matches worth of wasted HP. If, lets say each match lasts 5 minutes, this amounts to a total of 12.5 hours.

Not to mention that the newly bought mech is completely deprived of internal components and items, which adds 7.750 more HP for a grand total of 16.950 HP for a new, fully stocked mech. (280 matches approximately)

And on top of all that, your experiences with this new mech are hindered by it's low default starting level, which makes it inferior to any other similar mech of the same class and equipment, simply because it just rolled out of the production line.


The beauty of the renting system is that i could log on one day an say "Gee, i think i will got Shottie today" or "I want to pop some heads Vasili style, i'm gonna rent me a sniper for the day"

Here, with the permanent system, its more of a "Mmh, i really want to try the Sabot rifle. But it cost too much. What if it sucks? What if i don't like it? What if i suck with it? 9200 HP is a bit much for a gun i've never used. I think i'll just stick to upgrading my Bruiser with internal components that give fixed percentage bonuses to my attributes and damage that are not perceivable in any way outside of the fact that game tells me they are there"


A Renting system alongside the permanent item system would really help newer / casual players without punishing them for buying item's they might not use that often.

Being able to rent mechs and items at low price gives people the opportunity to try items for a short amount of time and let's them decide whether they like it or not without having to invest a crapton of points, and hence game time.

Am i alone in thinking this?

Would you people support a Renting system in addition to the current Permanent system?

Edited by Hipnox, October 27 2012 - 08:04 AM.


#2 dsi1

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Posted October 27 2012 - 12:20 AM

Renting fuzzy bunny just leaves a nasty taste in my mouth.

It makes you feel like you must play to make use of the items before they disappear. Blacklight: Retribution did this to me, I played like it was a daily chore. I burnt out and forgot the game, thankfully I didn't waste money on it.

Now a try-before-you-buy thing like Tribe: Ascend's free-roaming mode would be great. (One of the very few things T:A did right)

#3 PhoenixHawk

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Posted October 27 2012 - 12:31 AM

There is absolutely no indication that the HP rewards at the end of match are going to be the final rewards.

#4 Greenfox21

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Posted October 27 2012 - 12:52 AM

YOur point is invalid.

There are "Free" Mechs for a time period. So people can test them out.
Most likely they will give out free mechs in the beginning more then planned so people can test play builds.

Rental would work too okay.
But overall cost of rental is bigger then perma.
I for myself hate rental systems.
And love the fact that you need work to some mechs and you need to know what you want to play.
And simply a Mech can be played in different style ^^.

Lets see what they change in CBT2~
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#5 Ninjaman999

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Posted October 27 2012 - 07:36 AM

I find the rental system in all the games I've played with it to be disgusting. It does not reward time compared to permanatly getting an item and considering the weapons in Hawken are very different from one another, you could never get a real feel and mastering from a gun with 3 days of use. Kill it with fire :3

#6 Hipnox

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Posted October 27 2012 - 07:48 AM

That's why i purpose Rental + Permanent system

You rent it -> Like it -> You grind HP -> You buy it

You rent it -> Don't like it ->  You don't buy it and avoid wasting a ton of points on an item/mech you are never going to use

Edited by Hipnox, October 27 2012 - 07:48 AM.


#7 Xionel

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Posted October 27 2012 - 07:56 AM

You're not supposed to say that you're in Alpha 2 by the way...

#8 Ninjaman999

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Posted October 27 2012 - 07:58 AM

A future I would want for this game is a large arsenal of weapons to master, skills and abilities to combine n many different ways, many mechs to use and a ton of cosmetic options like camos, body parts, alternate weapon designs (visual only to maintain balance) and stuff, keeping a strong and balanced core system of gameplay.

#9 Hipnox

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Posted October 27 2012 - 08:07 AM

Yeah, but at 9200 a piece you are never EVER going to play around with even a third of the game's content.

That's why perma system with high cost hurts diversity. There is no incentive to dump a crapload of HP on a weapon you don't know from fear of not liking it.


View PostXionel, on October 27 2012 - 07:56 AM, said:

You're not supposed to say that you're in Alpha 2 by the way...

I never said that

#10 Gravebound

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Posted October 27 2012 - 08:13 AM

Rental works pretty fine in Blacklight, I don't see why it wouldn't work here.

#11 Wonderbread

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Posted October 27 2012 - 08:44 AM

but black light

View PostGravebound, on October 27 2012 - 08:13 AM, said:

Rental works pretty fine in Blacklight, I don't see why it wouldn't work here.
if they go rental this is the only one i have played that is worth anything because you can buy it for good with ingame money after grinding a few matches and day rentals = 2 games per item your renting for a average player. But i like how they have it now if they just put in a testing room for you to try before you buy gun and items this system they have now would be great.

#12 Hipnox

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Posted October 27 2012 - 08:51 AM

A testing room would be nice, except that the only real way to test anything is in an actual match with actual people...

#13 IceTonic

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Posted October 27 2012 - 09:00 AM

View PostHipnox, on October 27 2012 - 08:51 AM, said:

A testing room would be nice, except that the only real way to test anything is in an actual match with actual people...
You can test it on bots, that is if/when they update they finish them so they can be an appropriate opponent for new players, and good test subjects for others. Then again an option to rent for a day won't kill your budget, considering its a mere fraction of the permanent version, you should easily re-gain that cost in a match or two.

#14 dsi1

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Posted October 27 2012 - 09:18 AM

Renting-to-buy items turns the game into a job.

#15 BeefC4ke

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Posted October 27 2012 - 09:46 AM

It's not rental...

You're not paying anything for the infiltrator.

Instead it's a test period. A try-before-you-buy experience. Once you hit the try button you can then purchase the mech if you decide you like it. If you don't then the mech simply goes away at the end of its trial period.

A rental implies that you pay something to use something which you're not doing. I think the system is great because you don't pay anything to use the "mech of the week." If you don't like the mech you'll never buy it.
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#16 Hipnox

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Posted October 27 2012 - 10:12 AM

A "mech of the week" system is really not that optimal. If i want to try the Sharpshooter, i'd either have to wait until it's mech of the week or grind until i buy it.

Rental  + Permanent system is the way to go


View Postdsi1, on October 27 2012 - 09:18 AM, said:

Renting-to-buy items turns the game into a job.

I don't know about you, but having to play approximately 150 full matches to TRY out a new mech feels an awful lot like a job to me, whereas being able to rent a mech for 1 day at the cost of 10 or 15 matches worth of HP feels much more accesible

Edited by Hipnox, October 27 2012 - 10:14 AM.


#17 ArbalestModel

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Posted October 27 2012 - 10:15 AM

I do like the aspect of Trial periods. Handing out a free mech to run around with once in a while helps with figuring out what the player wants to buy. It often results in the "OH MY GOD I NEED THIS RIGHT NOW BUT DON'T HAVE ENOUGH CREDITS WHERE IS MY CREDIT CARD" thing. As for rentals, it depends on how you do it. Someone mentioned Blacklight and I have to say that I like the way Premades in that game are handled. It takes about one to two matches to make back all of the money you spent on a one day rental, which means you get to save up to buy permanent equipment with little loss.

#18 Ninjaman999

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Posted October 27 2012 - 10:18 AM

Oh fuzzy bunny, ppl from the alpha are not allowed to mention it? Opps ;_____;
And while I see what you mean w rental and then buy, why can't they let you try the weapon for one or more rounds before buying it instead of making me work and use precious credits to test it out?
I would purpose 2 rounds of testing before you buy. Would you like to pay 5 bucks for demo so you can throw 60 for the game?
I hate the rental system which is why the only free2play I've ever embraced is Tribes. I spent 80 bucks on money for tribes so far and I got a TON of value from it. I Find it annoying that people complain about grinding in a free game. I mean, its better then a demo or 30 min session...

Edited by Ninjaman999, October 27 2012 - 10:19 AM.


#19 Brevillance

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Posted October 27 2012 - 10:31 AM

Quote

day rentals = 2 games per item

Wait...what? Ive rented the SMG Base twice and im almost to being able to perma purchase it. Ive played well over 25+ games a day when im into playing. So im not sure what that's about...

And im fine with the OP's proposal. Blacklight does a fantastic job of letting you rent for a specific amount of time, while still offering perma fora  larger cost but less if you buy it rather then constantly renting it. Its a great system, and because of it im able to try all the receivers to find what i like/dont like as well as trying different stocks/barrels to get something that works well without having to fully invest in something and go "....waste" and grind more to get the $$ to buy another "hopefully" more to my liking stock. I dont see why this system cant come into hawken, or why people are so against having rent systems WITH a perma system. I cannot for the life of me see why it would "leave a bad taste in your mouth" or "making it a job" if you can PERMA buy stuff. It seems like a job to put a ton of effort in something and have it turn out you DONT like it and now you have to spend 20+ more hr's in game to try another mech and hope you like it. A Perma + Rental system IMO is the best system you can have in a game. Its not like hes saying RENTAL ONLY like APB (without spending real $$) or saying to make it so they only work for a while before you have to spend a load of cash to repair them (like AvA (though it wasn't to bad in that regard).

I like the OP's idea of having both. Its not going to turn into a chore, or make the game unbalanced, or ruin game play. Its not going to affect your game play or make you have to play everyday for a minimum of 5 hours to make back what you spent, or have to play everyday just to be able to always have a gun to use. I dont understand the negativity of an idea to ADD the option of rentals. i just dont...

Edited by Brevillance, October 27 2012 - 10:32 AM.

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#20 Ninjaman999

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Posted October 27 2012 - 10:32 AM

And sorry if I sound inconsiderate for the free players but that's why Hawken should do what Dota does. As in have a very strong core gameplay of heavily balanced yet diverse weapons and base mechs that can be fully accessed freely with play time, and have a ton of cosmetic unlockables that can be bought with meteor points such as alternate mechs and mech parts, cool camo's, more expensive full art skins, alternate weapon skins(models) from different "brands", cockpit cosmetic upgrades like different cockpit looks (Victorian steam punk or junker looks, etc) and stuff but everything cosmetic. And then have the points be fair so you can be able to fully pimp like 2 or 3 mechs with 30 bucks or so and add new guns and maps as time goes on. What do yo guys think? Base gameplay is fair and highly competitive but upgrades take time and cosmetics are money to pay for maintaining the game :3




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