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P2W - why why why

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#1 Caladan

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Posted December 13 2012 - 01:23 PM

I gritted my teeth when I heard Hawken would be free-to-play. I told myself that it would be fine and it would all work out.

I've played closed beta and was enjoying it, now that open beta is here the magic has been stripped away.

I managed to convince a group of friends to download and play tonight, after about 30-40 minutes we actually managed to join a game ... (won't say anymore on that, I know it's beta!) We didn't mind, we were chatting and having a laugh. When we finally joined a game we figured it would be worth it .... How wrong we were!!!

The game was flooded by level 10-18 mechs, all with paid for mechs (not the starting mech) and all with decent assault and support items.

We didn't stand a chance, we played for a good couple of hours, leveling up slowly, but even so without spending money my friends were in no shape to put up a fight (I wasn't bad as I have vanguard initiative; but I really felt bad for them!)

Now I know you are going to say "But the games free, spend some money on it and it will be much better" but look at it from their point of view:

They have just been repeatedly killed over and over again because people are spending money. That makes them not like the people who are "playing to win" and they refuse to stoop to that level and pay just so they can play the game on equal footing (especially when they will be spending money blindly on Mechs they don't even know if they will like!)

I agree with them, I hate to say it but I'm not enjoying the gameplay of open beta so far, I'm hoping that the cost of items decreases (overpriced at the minute) ... actually scrap that. I'm hoping that assault and support items no longer need to be bought, and that the only thing players should have to spend real money on is aesthetics and possibly mech designs (although you should start with at least one of each mech 'class' so you learn which play style you like.)

To be honest, I think the best thing to do would be to scrap this free-to-play fuzzy bunny and put the game on Steam for £30.00 or so. Then let people enjoy the game, and you still get your money. (and yes you're all screaming "just pay £30.00 and get some new mechs" ... No, call me old fashioned but if I'm going to fork out a decent slab of money; I want a full game - not a game with a ton of content locked to me.

At the minute (and I've experienced it tonight) the game is alienating new players and I'm saddened to say that this amazing game is going to die out way before it's time.

Apologies for the long post but I wanted to put across my view. I'm sure all you guys at Hawken have already set the ball rolling on this free-to-play malarchy but I honestly think you are condemning an amazing, original shooter to an early, mediocre death.

I'm going to keep checking the site every now and again to see how things progress  but as it stands there are games out there that I will go and spend my money on where the online experience will put everyone on a level playing field and where I can keep going back to without having to think "oh, I bet I will win the next game if I spend my money on the thing that that level 20 had ...."

I understand this is Beta, and hopefully things do improve.

I'll finish by saying: I want to give you my money, but first you have to make me want to.

Cheers

James

#2 JordanErickson

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Posted December 13 2012 - 01:25 PM

Don't you start off with some money to buy stuff?

#3 andythebomb

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Posted December 13 2012 - 01:26 PM

We were promised a difrent kind of F2P game and we get this CRUD!

hawkens-mark-long-on-core-free-to-play

what happend to this:

“Zynga don’t actually make games, they make compulsion loops,” posits Mark Long, CEO of Meteor Entertainment, the company responsible for publishing Adhesive Games’ free to play mech shooter, Hawken. “They have some really evil practices to dead-end players, liking switching buttons around so that you end up buying stuff. It’s the same on the mobile side, they create obstacles and you have to use money to avoid frustration. If we’re going to do something different with free to play it has to respect the hardcore players that aren’t going to put up with that fuzzy bunny, right? The people that put up with Farmville have never played games before so they don’t know any better, but certainly you and I know better and the first inkling that I get that I’m being ripped-off in a core free to play game, I’m out.”

#4 andythebomb

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Posted December 13 2012 - 01:27 PM

View PostJordanErickson, on December 13 2012 - 01:25 PM, said:

Don't you start off with some money to buy stuff?
No.

#5 Borisof007

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Posted December 13 2012 - 01:27 PM

I just finished playing my first two matches.  I placed second in a free for all, where I leveled up 6 times in one match.

The next match I played a team DM, where I went 16-2 using the beginner mech with an SMG that I had just earned.  I played against those huge artillery mechs, infiltrators, and others.

I wouldn't necessarily classify this game as pay to win, I think you need to brush up your skills more and get better.

#6 digital0verdose

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Posted December 13 2012 - 01:27 PM

Pay 2 Win implies the only way to actually win is through money and not skill. That doesn't seem to be what is going on here as I have seen some walking TVs absolutely dominate and some $$$ mechs come in dead last.

To me it seems like it is more skill to win and pay to stay fresher sooner.

#7 Caladan

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Posted December 13 2012 - 01:27 PM

View PostJordanErickson, on December 13 2012 - 01:25 PM, said:

Don't you start off with some money to buy stuff?

I did, but I thought that was because I was on the Vanguard initiative!

#8 Akrium

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Posted December 13 2012 - 01:30 PM

You do realize that the mechs that are purchased do NOT have the rookie internals that are the best in the game right? That you yourself and your friends did get. What you probably felt was the shame of playing a game for the first time and getting owned because simply put.. you've put no time into the game where as they have.

Thus they are more skilled.. and it has NOTHING to do with anything they paid for.

If you don't give the game a chance, you simply will always suck at it. Doesn't matter how skill you think you are. It is not like a game you have played before and it takes time to figure it all out.

all us alpha and beta testers knew this flood of qq was coming, but seriously... give the game a chance. It has a higher level skill cap than most games so it will take time to learn. And the leveling now... is a joke! It took us far longer to level in the closed beta's than it does now. I hit level 6 after my first game!! That is just silly...

#9 andythebomb

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Posted December 13 2012 - 01:31 PM

the worst example of mony grubing is the 7 second emp. back in the closed beta it was 3 seconds but now we have countermeasures aka pay to win to compensate.

Thats 7 seconds if any part of the emp blast hits you where all you can do is run around and i get to shoot you.
I get to do this once per min(shorter if i die) beter hope you bought the 50 pack of countermeasures that costs 5180 hawken creds only 1300 cheaper than a mech

#10 cheeto101

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Posted December 13 2012 - 01:31 PM

I really wish they had kept anything that improves your mech (offensive/defensive items etc.) as HP only.

Buying new mechs isn't a big deal imo because the base mech is fine, and you have 2 other free options as well, so buying more mechs really is just buying options. Buying offensive/defensive items and improvements for your mech though is buying power, which is never good. An assault mech with an offensive item is just more powerful then an assault mech that doesn't have an offensive item.

#11 Cozmix

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Posted December 13 2012 - 01:33 PM

I hear the sounds of laughter and whine of a fishing reel.

#12 BackwerdsMan

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Posted December 13 2012 - 01:35 PM

P2W... A terrible players favorite excuse since the dawn of F2P games.

Seriously, stop posting these retarded threads, and go learn how to play the game.

Fred is a good mech, especially for a starting mech. You shouldn't have any problem competing in games. If you can't handle the game, go back to Viva Pinata.

Edited by BackwerdsMan, December 13 2012 - 01:36 PM.


#13 Caladan

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Posted December 13 2012 - 01:35 PM

View PostBorisof007, on December 13 2012 - 01:27 PM, said:

I wouldn't necessarily classify this game as pay to win, I think you need to brush up your skills more and get better.

I agree with you to some extent - it's no worse than going up against a high level in Call of Duty for example. But there is definitely an advantage when you're higher level in COD and there is definitely an advantage of paying for upgrades in Hawken.

The difference is (and the point I'm trying to make is) If a new player gets killed by a player multiple times by players who have spent money they don't think "If I keep practicing I'll level up and get that good" they think "He's winning because he has paid; this sucks"

I love this game, I do. But I've played it a fair amount and I'm trying to give the first impressions of my friends who had never touched it before.

Just wanted to suggest that maybe the game as it stands is isolating players who would have spent money on it if it wasn't free to play.

It seems the free-to-play model is to have a small-medium size group of "Hardcore" fans/players and make £60 from each of them over the course of the game than it is to have double the number of players pay the money up front"!

#14 BuDeKai

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Posted December 13 2012 - 01:36 PM

View Postcheeto101, on December 13 2012 - 01:31 PM, said:

I really wish they had kept anything that improves your mech (offensive/defensive items etc.) as HP only.

Buying new mechs isn't a big deal imo because the base mech is fine, and you have 2 other free options as well, so buying more mechs really is just buying options. Buying offensive/defensive items and improvements for your mech though is buying power, which is never good. An assault mech with an offensive item is just more powerful then an assault mech that doesn't have an offensive item.

i wish they could pay the power bill with my hopes and dreams. too bad most power companies only take cash.

Edited by BuDeKai, December 13 2012 - 01:36 PM.

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ive started streaming. the quality is fuzzy bunny but id appreciate any support
http://www.twitch.tv/budekai
also be sure to tune into The COCKPIT Hawken show! ---> http://community.pla...astshow-121212/

#15 Cpt_Kill_Jack

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Posted December 13 2012 - 01:36 PM

Yes you start out with money if you have vanguard. Otherwise the game is live and its starting from scratch. You are seeing high level mechs right now because the Rookie regulator internal is bugged and give you around 200+% xp vs the 20% bonus its suppose to do. They know about this bug.

#16 Cyberpunk

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Posted December 13 2012 - 01:36 PM

High level mechs really doesnt have a HUGE advantage,iam already lvl 18 but i still get my ass kicked by lower lvl mechs(lvl 1-lvl 5,etc).Its all about how much experience you have in the game,and also some of us have been playing since the alpha so we already got a lot of experience in the game.You just gotta keep playing to get good at the game
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#17 Necro

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Posted December 13 2012 - 01:37 PM

i read most of the post but figured you guys are just rookies.

I've played 1 hour and 40 minutes in open beta all assault with no money spent and i have only lost 1 game due to being down 2 members.
Every other time i was Mvp or top k/d player,

Not to say L2P but it's mostly closed beta/alpha members you are going to see with crazy good numbers and teams.

#18 ReachH

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Posted December 13 2012 - 01:37 PM

Well to be fair, what we have is a lot closer to P2W than what was envisioned.

And while the Alpha and Betas can debate on the finer points of 'to what extent is it P2W?', Meteor is clearly loosing the battle against being branded P2W with regard to the Open Beta public. And once that label sticks, it is hard to wash off.

And after putting myself in some of the new players perspectives upon entering this game for the first time I cannot blame them in the slightest. If you read what the CEO said in that interview, it is WORLDS apart from what is really here.

So... your move Meteor :/

View Post[HWK]HUGHES, on October 23 2013 - 06:01 PM, said:

Development happens.


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#19 Akrium

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Posted December 13 2012 - 01:37 PM

View PostCpt_Kill_Jack, on December 13 2012 - 01:36 PM, said:

Yes you start out with money if you have vanguard. Otherwise the game is live and its starting from scratch. You are seeing high level mechs right now because the Rookie regulator internal is bugged and give you around 200+% xp vs the 20% bonus its suppose to do. They know about this bug.

good god why am i leveling my zerker...

#20 Caladan

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Posted December 13 2012 - 01:38 PM

View PostAkrium, on December 13 2012 - 01:30 PM, said:

If you don't give the game a chance, you simply will always suck at it. Doesn't matter how skill you think you are. It is not like a game you have played before and it takes time to figure it all out.

I agree completely - but you will always have the nagging feeling of "Will I improve enough or is this a pay-2-win game" You don't know until you've played the game a lot. You have had alpha/beta experience so you understand it. New players won't.





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