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About MMR?

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#1 Fulano2

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Posted August 19 2014 - 04:08 PM

I hear about MMR many times, and look up my MMR.  It is around of 1550.

I know MMR is a kind of indincation of how good you are at playing. But can someone tell, or show me some information about what it really is, and how the things I do in the game count on MMR?

Thanks.

#2 ticklemyiguana

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Posted August 19 2014 - 04:15 PM

https://community.pl...ssists-and-mmr/

Most recent topic on it. Not sure where the threads nokari is talking about are though.

Edited by ticklemyiguana, August 19 2014 - 04:15 PM.

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#3 Draigun

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Posted August 19 2014 - 04:41 PM

The way it is designed and implemented is for none of us to even know or worry about it, as the idea is that you could find perfectly balanced matches using this value. Obviously, this is not the case with such a low population density.

Essentially the topic linked above mostly explains the fundamentals, but if I had to take a guess at what the specifics are:
  • Kill/death ratio calculations per match
  • Damage ratio calculations per match
  • Accuracy rating for global weapons
  • Misc match stats
  • Pilot level (a lower pilot level amplifies the rating incremental change % more than likely)
  • Amount of kills per match
  • Amount of time played
  • Damage/combat efficiency rating
  • How "well" you do against MMR values that are greater than yours
  • Survivability
One thing that I continually test on, is when I push myself and usually get top score player in a ~2000 MMR server; I usually gain around 10 or 15 in MMR value. Ultimately, it depends on how well you play. The possibility of obtaining the full equation is less than likely, even when the game might go EOL.

Also, one fact that we all know to be true, is the equation parses its data when you complete 1 (one) match.

Edited by Draigun, August 19 2014 - 05:47 PM.

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#4 crockrocket

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Posted August 19 2014 - 04:51 PM

Since we've got an MMR thread going here, I'll seize the opportunity to talk about an interesting thing that happened to me recently.

So I recently decided to create a smurf for the purpose of playing either when I'm drunk or don't feel like taking things too seriously. Within about 4 hours of playtime on this account, my mmr was already 200 higher than my actual account. I thought it was funny that I sucked so badly when I first started playing that my mmr on the real account is still harder to raise than a smurf. Anyone else noticed something like this?
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#5 ticklemyiguana

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Posted August 19 2014 - 04:52 PM

View PostDraigun, on August 19 2014 - 04:41 PM, said:

The way it is designed and implemented is for none of us to even know or worry about it, as the idea is that you could find perfectly balanced matches using this value. Obviously, this is not the case with such a low population density.

Essentially the topic linked above mostly explains the fundamentals, but if I had to take a guess at what the specifics are:
  • Kill/death ratio calculations per match
  • Damage ratio calculations per match
  • Accuracy rating for global weapons
  • Misc match stats
  • Pilot level (a lower pilot level amplifies the rating incremental change % more than likely)
  • Amount of kills per match
  • Amount of time played
  • Damage/combat efficiency rating
  • How "well" you do against MMR values that are greater than yours
  • Survivability
One thing that I continually test on, is when I push myself and usually get top score player in a ~2000 MMR server; I usually gain around 10 or 15 in MMR value. Ultimately, it depends on how well you play. The possibility of obtaining the full equation is less than likely, even when the game might go EOL.

Also, one fact that we all know to be true, is the equation parses its data when you complete 1 (one) match.
I don't think k/d ratio has anything to do with it, nor accuracy.
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#6 Ashfire908

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Posted August 19 2014 - 04:55 PM

View Postticklemyiguana, on August 19 2014 - 04:15 PM, said:

https://community.pl...ssists-and-mmr/

Most recent topic on it. Not sure where the threads nokari is talking about are though.

Best post on it. https://community.pl...ed/#entry549622
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#7 Draigun

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Posted August 19 2014 - 05:45 PM

View PostAshfire908, on August 19 2014 - 04:55 PM, said:

View Postticklemyiguana, on August 19 2014 - 04:15 PM, said:

https://community.pl...ssists-and-mmr/

Most recent topic on it. Not sure where the threads nokari is talking about are though.

Best post on it. https://community.pl...ed/#entry549622
Interesting... that explains why mine always increases after I generally get top score, which also explains why it happens as frequently as it does now—the skill ceiling is at an all time low for 2100+ MMR, so consequently, many will feel like they are doing particularly well, when in reality, the servers are averaging around 1800 to 2000 MMR in most common fields to those with high MMR.

Edited by Draigun, August 19 2014 - 05:45 PM.

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#8 EM1O

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Posted August 19 2014 - 08:56 PM

View Postcrockrocket, on August 19 2014 - 04:51 PM, said:

Since we've got an MMR thread going here, I'll seize the opportunity to talk about an interesting thing that happened to me recently.

So I recently decided to create a smurf for the purpose of playing either when I'm drunk or don't feel like taking things too seriously. Within about 4 hours of playtime on this account, my mmr was already 200 higher than my actual account. I thought it was funny that I sucked so badly when I first started playing that my mmr on the real account is still harder to raise than a smurf. Anyone else noticed something like this?
Yup. I played on this account for a year before i even knew what mmr was. this Feb it was ~1052. After actually "trying", it is now about 1500. A "drunk Smurf" started last month, with 12 hours on it is around 1600 now. Go figure. :P

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#9 MushyMoosh

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Posted August 20 2014 - 06:47 AM

Hi fulano, I met you in game. It seemed like you were upset about your skill level in ratio to the time you applied to the game. If I recall correctly you said you had 200+ hours played and in this thread you mention that you have an mmr of 1550. In game you said something along the lines of, "I've played this game for months but cannot get higher mmr, what is the point?" My suggestion is to not even worry about your skill level and your time played. Some people improve faster than others, but the fact is you will improve eventually.

How you improve, however, is entirely up to you. People have tried to help you multiple times, give tips, and even encouragement, but it seems that you have just brushed it off. Clearly it seems that you have given up, but that is not the case because you are still playing the game (hopefully).

My tip would be to revisit the core basics of the game:
1. Dodging when necessary. Don't just press shift everytime your dodge cooldown is up.
2. The key to good aim is "pre-fire or pre-aim". If you set up your reticle to the relative position of the enemy you will have an exponentially easier time targetting and tracking them. I.e. when peeking around corners, don't have your aim wandering off in the middle of nowhere, aim where you think the enemy is behind the wall.
3. Watch the dang radar!
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#10 Wasabi_Wei

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Posted August 20 2014 - 10:17 AM

Per-firing is huge. Although I have played a long time I have only realized the powers of predictive firing recently after loosening up my play-style and just playing with abandon. I am simply amazed at how often I get direct hits or finish off fleeing targets with a Hail-Mary pre-fire or last parting shot TOW or Grenade as I head off somewhere else. It baffles me, but whatever works, works.

Edited by Wasabi_Wei, August 20 2014 - 10:19 AM.

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#11 crockrocket

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Posted August 20 2014 - 12:18 PM

View PostMushyMoosh, on August 20 2014 - 06:47 AM, said:

snip

3. Watch the dang radar!

I've played with you a few times (just DM as far as I remember) and one of your complaints was that you always seem to get ganged up on. Watching the radar will help you avoid that. Something that some of the others (myself included) in those matches is attempting to be sneakier until you've actually spotted someone, or preferably even a couple people fighting so that you can ambush them while they're weak.

As far as I can tell, your skills are there, but you need to work on your situational awareness to avoid getting in spots where you're surrounded.
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#12 Draigun

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Posted August 20 2014 - 03:20 PM

Also, even though it is hard to resist, you should only boost in three situations:
  • When you need to get to your teammates fast to help prevent annihilation

  • Chasing an enemy to finish what you started, given that you know they are attempting to return to the enemy

  • Escaping the current situation, whether judgement indicates that if you stick around, 5 vs 2, for example, will not work; or you don't feel like you could outgun the opponent—some may debate that it shows weak players, but I disagree; the game guide even encourages a few classes to actually boost away
The key reason being when you boost, you show up on the enemy radar. If you do not, there is no way for them to know where you are, unless they have some kind of way to hear better (high-end headphones, amplifiers, etc.), they have a Predator/Infiltrator, or if they are running a scanner. If you even remotely hear a scanner somewhere, and it's not yours, I wouldn't try for it, unless you know there are no enemies around the area.

I unfortunately didn't know that boosting caused you to show up on the radar for awhile, and during that time, I was stuck in the 2000s of MMR. Now, I've almost surpassed the 2300 mark. Combat efficiency has increased dramatically, and generally, you will perform better. Premeditated strikes are always the best strikes in HAWKEN, but they are also the most difficult to setup.

Using this method alone will not make you better in terms of gameplay by any means; it should be used in conjunction with other methods and techniques, some of which you could probably find from some HAWKEN Steam guides created by the community.

Edited by Draigun, August 20 2014 - 03:32 PM.

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The world we know is every bit of real — and a hell of a lot more pure — than this decaying mudball you're trying to save.
Ascension lies in new ideas, not dusted-off old ones."
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#13 MushyMoosh

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Posted August 20 2014 - 03:50 PM

View PostDraigun, on August 20 2014 - 03:20 PM, said:

Also, even though it is hard to resist, you should only boost in three situations:
  • When you need to get to your teammates fast to help prevent annihilation

  • Chasing an enemy to finish what you started, given that you know they are attempting to return to the enemy

  • Escaping the current situation, whether judgement indicates that if you stick around, 5 vs 2, for example, will not work; or you don't feel like you could outgun the opponent—some may debate that it shows weak players, but I disagree; the game guide even encourages a few classes to actually boost away
The key reason being when you boost, you show up on the enemy radar. If you do not, there is no way for them to know where you are, unless they have some kind of way to hear better (high-end headphones, amplifiers, etc.), they have a Predator/Infiltrator, or if they are running a scanner. If you even remotely hear a scanner somewhere, and it's not yours, I wouldn't try for it, unless you know there are no enemies around the area.

I unfortunately didn't know that boosting caused you to show up on the radar for awhile, and during that time, I was stuck in the 2000s of MMR. Now, I've almost surpassed the 2300 mark. Combat efficiency has increased dramatically, and generally, you will perform better. Premeditated strikes are always the best strikes in HAWKEN, but they are also the most difficult to setup.

Using this method alone will not make you better in terms of gameplay by any means; it should be used in conjunction with other methods and techniques, some of which you could probably find from some HAWKEN Steam guides created by the community.

You can also boost after a dodge. Most people think their movements stop after a dodge, but you can change directions and boost in place of a dodge.

Also, how did you think people show up on radar o.O

Edited by MushyMoosh, August 20 2014 - 03:51 PM.

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#14 crockrocket

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Posted August 21 2014 - 06:41 PM

View PostAshfire908, on August 19 2014 - 04:55 PM, said:

View Postticklemyiguana, on August 19 2014 - 04:15 PM, said:

https://community.pl...ssists-and-mmr/

Most recent topic on it. Not sure where the threads nokari is talking about are though.

Best post on it. https://community.pl...ed/#entry549622

You know I think the "against higher mmr players" factor should be of higher importance. I just played a game on my 1800 mmr account in a 2100 average lobby, and got just under top 50% (maybe 2 players under). I would consider that a solid performance given that I'm clearly out of my league, however this doesn't result in an mmr raise (it essentially stayed the same, down 1 point). Maybe I'm wrong, but I feel like if I'm able to be a contributing member of a team that's out of my league, that means I should be closer to that level, right?
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#15 Draigun

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Posted August 21 2014 - 08:22 PM

View Postcrockrocket, on August 21 2014 - 06:41 PM, said:

View PostAshfire908, on August 19 2014 - 04:55 PM, said:

View Postticklemyiguana, on August 19 2014 - 04:15 PM, said:

https://community.pl...ssists-and-mmr/

Most recent topic on it. Not sure where the threads nokari is talking about are though.

Best post on it. https://community.pl...ed/#entry549622

You know I think the "against higher mmr players" factor should be of higher importance. I just played a game on my 1800 mmr account in a 2100 average lobby, and got just under top 50% (maybe 2 players under). I would consider that a solid performance given that I'm clearly out of my league, however this doesn't result in an mmr raise (it essentially stayed the same, down 1 point). Maybe I'm wrong, but I feel like if I'm able to be a contributing member of a team that's out of my league, that means I should be closer to that level, right?

That is the ideal working state of MMR implementation. But, not everything is perfect, and certainly not MMR. I honestly had thought the process of it was much more complex, but given sources, it actually seems like a 50% hard cap to increase or decrease. At least, I would have involved many more variables to make it much more accurate.

Also, believe it or not, it's actually impossible to calculate your "true" MMR value, since (I'm assuming) Ashfire doesn't have the full equation. Now, that doesn't mean he can't do some few tricks to estimate your MMR value. Thus,

That is why ScrimBot gives you a true MMR value between two of them, usually spanning 300? MMR in points. It is between this value that your MMR lies within. I don't know the confidence intervals for each set, but it might be around 95% confidence.

Edited by Draigun, August 21 2014 - 08:28 PM.

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The world we know is every bit of real — and a hell of a lot more pure — than this decaying mudball you're trying to save.
Ascension lies in new ideas, not dusted-off old ones."
  - Philosophy of the Virtual Adepts

#16 Ashfire908

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Posted August 21 2014 - 09:00 PM

View PostDraigun, on August 21 2014 - 08:22 PM, said:

That is the ideal working state of MMR implementation. But, not everything is perfect, and certainly not MMR. I honestly had thought the process of it was much more complex, but given sources, it actually seems like a 50% hard cap to increase or decrease. At least, I would have involved many more variables to make it much more accurate.

Also, believe it or not, it's actually impossible to calculate your "true" MMR value, since (I'm assuming) Ashfire doesn't have the full equation. Now, that doesn't mean he can't do some few tricks to estimate your MMR value. Thus,

That is why ScrimBot gives you a true MMR value between two of them, usually spanning 300? MMR in points. It is between this value that your MMR lies within. I don't know the confidence intervals for each set, but it might be around 95% confidence.

Not really. No, I don't know the MMR calculation (and from what I know I don't have anywhere near the info or time to derive it on the fly), so instead I just check the user's stats on the backend and return their reported MMR. The 'true' MMR reading is a output I added that gives I think a 90% confidence rating based off of the user's reported deviation.

What the command's code looks like, with all the input validation and rate limiting and other stuff removed:

stats = api.get_user_stats(user)

mmr = stats["MatchMaking.Rating"]
deviation = stats["MatchMaking.Deviation"]

message = "Your MMR is {0:.2f}, with an approximate true rating between {1:.2f}-{2:.2f}.".format(mmr, mmr - (deviation * 2), mmr + (deviation * 2))

"I'm bad at code, what is this?"
  • Get the player's stats
  • Grab the MMR
  • Grab the MMR Deviation (glicko stuff)
  • Format the message with the MMR. Range is just the MMR +- (deviation * 2)

Edited by Ashfire908, August 21 2014 - 09:08 PM.

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#17 zorin1

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Posted August 22 2014 - 05:51 AM

View PostAshfire908, on August 21 2014 - 09:00 PM, said:


stats = api.get_user_stats(user)

mmr = stats["MatchMaking.Rating"]
deviation = stats["MatchMaking.Deviation"]

message = "Your MMR is {0:.2f}, with an approximate true rating between {1:.2f}-{2:.2f}.".format(mmr, mmr - (deviation * 2), mmr + (deviation * 2))

"I'm bad at code, what is this?"
  • Get the player's stats

  • Grab the MMR

  • Grab the MMR Deviation (glicko stuff)

  • Format the message with the MMR. Range is just the MMR +- (deviation * 2)

I don't know why you are multiplying the deviation by 2.  
this says that if your MMR 1500 and your deviation is 100 that your range is 1300 - 1700.  This does not seem right to me.  Might be better to divide by 2. so that your range would be 1450 - 1550, or don't divide or multiple by 2 which gives you 1400 - 1600.

Just a thought

#18 Leonhardt

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Posted August 22 2014 - 06:36 AM

View PostDraigun, on August 21 2014 - 08:22 PM, said:

Also, believe it or not, it's actually impossible to calculate your "true" MMR value, since (I'm assuming) Ashfire doesn't have the full equation. Now, that doesn't mean he can't do some few tricks to estimate your MMR value. Thus,

That is why ScrimBot gives you a true MMR value between two of them, usually spanning 300? MMR in points. It is between this value that your MMR lies within. I don't know the confidence intervals for each set, but it might be around 95% confidence.

Scrimbot pulls your MMR directly from Hawken. It does not calculate it because Hawken does that for everyone. Ashfire provides a range as well as the raw MMR. The range is only meant to give people an idea of where they currently are and how far up and down their MMR could be considered worthless because a players "true skill rating" is likely somewhere in the range not necessarily their raw score at that particular moment.

You are reading into it way too much.

Edited by Leonhardt, August 22 2014 - 06:37 AM.

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#19 Ashfire908

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Posted August 22 2014 - 07:55 AM

View Postzorin1, on August 22 2014 - 05:51 AM, said:

I don't know why you are multiplying the deviation by 2.  
this says that if your MMR 1500 and your deviation is 100 that your range is 1300 - 1700.  This does not seem right to me.  Might be better to divide by 2. so that your range would be 1450 - 1550, or don't divide or multiple by 2 which gives you 1400 - 1600.

Just a thought

Because if I change the range I give, I change the confidence level (95% for the current setup) for the 'true' rating to be in that range. I can't just arbitrarily change it to whatever I want.
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#20 Lunatic_Fringe

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Posted August 22 2014 - 09:34 AM

95% confidence/alpha 5% -> CI = ±1.96σ for a sample of 1

1,96 is very close to 2, and for the purpose 2 works well enough.
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