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Boost+Back = 180 Turn (Shift+S)


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#1 MrX101

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Posted October 27 2012 - 03:37 PM

Basically played hawken for first time today, overall enjoyed it, but the whole auto turn when you press boost + back(shift+S) really annoys me greatly, i'd much rather just backpaddle normally or do a dash backwards.

I was wondering if anyone else is highly annoyed by this feature.

ps, if it was a seperate keybind than shift+S like say V, i'd be perfectly fine with it, because i wouldn't accidently use it when i'm just trying to backpaddle slightly because i'm hitting a wall or something.

#2 BuDeKai

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Posted October 27 2012 - 03:41 PM

this was discussed at GREAT length in the alpha forums and the devs are well aware with peoples trouble to adapt. the overall opinion was that its a powerful feature that takes getting used to because its exist in no other game.

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#3 cunningStunts

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Posted October 27 2012 - 03:42 PM

A backwards dash would be incredible...I've been screwed by this once, but it has also saved me many times once I started using it to my advantage.

Try working with it...you'll learn to use it correctly soon enough!

#4 MrX101

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Posted October 27 2012 - 03:44 PM

ye i understand that concept, i'm just curious to the reason why not just put this auto turn as a seperate keybind instead of the whole shift+S thing?

#5 Tezkat

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Posted October 27 2012 - 03:45 PM

That feature used to really annoy me, too, but now I find myself using those rapid 180s constantly. Given the heavy negative mouse acceleration outside your central view, it's the only way to turn quickly enough to respond to attacks from behind.
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#6 Astrolis

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Posted October 27 2012 - 03:49 PM

View PostTezkat, on October 27 2012 - 03:45 PM, said:

That feature used to really annoy me, too, but now I find myself using those rapid 180s constantly. Given the heavy negative mouse acceleration outside your central view, it's the only way to turn quickly enough to respond to attacks from behind.

or to withdraw from a bad engagement.
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#7 cunningStunts

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Posted October 27 2012 - 03:50 PM

View PostTezkat, on October 27 2012 - 03:45 PM, said:

That feature used to really annoy me, too, but now I find myself using those rapid 180s constantly. Given the heavy negative mouse acceleration outside your central view, it's the only way to turn quickly enough to respond to attacks from behind.

Unless you have a mouse with quick adjust buttons for mouse sensitivity! ;)  That's my secret.

#8 Tezkat

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Posted October 27 2012 - 03:58 PM

View PostcunningStunts, on October 27 2012 - 03:50 PM, said:

View PostTezkat, on October 27 2012 - 03:45 PM, said:

That feature used to really annoy me, too, but now I find myself using those rapid 180s constantly. Given the heavy negative mouse acceleration outside your central view, it's the only way to turn quickly enough to respond to attacks from behind.

Unless you have a mouse with quick adjust buttons for mouse sensitivity! ;)  That's my secret.

Um, as it happens, I do have a mouse with sensitivity adjustments right at my fingertips (Logitech G9X). That doesn't help if the game prevents you from taking advantage of it...
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#9 DarkPulse

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Posted October 27 2012 - 04:00 PM

If you could just dash backwards, it would mean mechs who do close combat would never have a chance to catch up to you, and you could still shoot them too.

It might not make "sense" but it's the best option, unless the devs allow for placeable boosters. Then you'd be able to put boosters on the front, but in turn, lose all forward dash capability, or put one of each on the side, allowing for dashing in all directions, but side dashes are much slower (forward and backward are equally quick, though not as quick as "centered" forward or backward thrusters.)
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#10 AsianJoyKiller

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Posted October 27 2012 - 05:17 PM

Like most unique game mechanics, the 180 can take some getting used to. You'll get it eventually.
I'd suggest not using the double-tap mechanic. It can be easy to mistakenly input a double tap which is never good.


View PostMrX101, on October 27 2012 - 03:37 PM, said:

do a dash backwards.

View PostcunningStunts, on October 27 2012 - 03:42 PM, said:

A backwards dash would be incredible...
Going to go ahead and say this now, because I just know the thread is going to head in this direction.

A back dash is a mechanic that requires less skill and lowers the skill floor, which is a bad thing.
It provides an easy out and takes away from gameplay depth due to the fact that it would be a powerful reactive mechanic. It takes no forethought to use and the ability to quickly put distance between you and your opponent while remaining in a decent position to retaliate almost immediately is incredibly powerful, which can easily negate the advantage of a well planned ambush.

This is why I would never want to see it in place of the 180 mechanic.
When your only option to make a quick retreat from a sticky situation depends on turning your back to your enemy, it separates the boys from the men (my pardons to the fairer gender) as you'll see who thinks ahead and who just charges into the fray.
You'll notice that good players would never need a backdodge because they'll never get themselves into situations where they'd need it.
You'll also notice good players who can retread, 180, fire, 180 and keep running. This sort of skilled play is incredible to watch and I'd rather not cheapen that.

I tend to argue on principles of game balance mechanics, but if you want a lore/logic reason for no back boosting, just look at the design of the mechs. They shouldn't logically be able to move backwards in such a fashion.

[HWK]HUGHES, on July 03 2013 - 11:07 PM, said:

AJK is right

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#11 deltafive5

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Posted October 27 2012 - 05:49 PM

I dont think he was arguing that its a bad mechanic to have, he was arguing the keybinding. I think most can agree that a 180 when you are being shot in the back is nice, but doing a 180 when you fully intend to move sideways is mostly an insta-death.

#12 AsianJoyKiller

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Posted October 27 2012 - 06:04 PM

View Postdeltafive5, on October 27 2012 - 05:49 PM, said:

I dont think he was arguing that its a bad mechanic to have, he was arguing the keybinding. I think most can agree that a 180 when you are being shot in the back is nice, but doing a 180 when you fully intend to move sideways is mostly an insta-death.
Ahem...

View PostMrX101, on October 27 2012 - 03:37 PM, said:

the whole auto turn when you press boost + back(shift+S) really annoys me greatly, i'd much rather just backpaddle normally or do a dash backwards.

Now I realize that part of it was a keybinding issue, but the thing is, it takes maybe an hour or two to get used to it.

[HWK]HUGHES, on July 03 2013 - 11:07 PM, said:

AJK is right

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#13 NotKjell

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Posted October 27 2012 - 06:39 PM

I'll just chime in with everyone else that this was talked about a ton during alpha. My general feelings are that
  • 180 is very unique, and that is good
  • 180 is very useful, you just need to get used to it
  • backward boost would change a lot of game flow, not necessarily for the better
  • I still want to be able to bind forward boost, dodge right, dodge left and 180 to individual buttons.

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#14 defekt

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Posted October 27 2012 - 06:54 PM

Allowing a rebind is the easy fix to this problem.  

I would not like to see the 180deg move removed because it's simply far too powerful once you get used to it.  Retro-dash I would also not like to see added because a) none of the mechs have front-mounted thrusters and b) it would reduce the skill cap for combat.  I like that escaping is harder than pursuit and long may it stay that way.

#15 Urvanis

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Posted October 27 2012 - 07:26 PM

This game seems to maintain a strong sense of realism. If you look at how the thrusters are mounted, It is literally impossible for them to thrust you backwards. even if they could pivot enough to direct you backwards, and some how magically doesn't destroy your mech in the process, the force from the thrust would still impact your mech, making you thrust marginally nowhere.

If there is ever a reverse thrust feature, it should be an active utility slot item that mounts retro thrusters to the front or sides of the mech.

also to note, mouse sensitivity has no effect on your maximum turn rate. it actually makes it more difficult the higher it is, as you'll have to swipe increasingly multiple times to turn.
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#16 Talesin

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Posted October 27 2012 - 07:29 PM

Likewise, back-dashing would remove the penalty for playing stupid, letting you 'rewind' from a bad situation very easily.
The 180 is bound to the back-dash as it is easily accessed and unused otherwise.

This is purely a player-acclimatization problem. Get used to it, and it's handy to have quick access to. And once you're used to it being there, you'll end up using it less, accidentally.
Re-binds would be a workable 'solution', but really... in this case, it's pure PEBKAC.
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#17 Tetora

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Posted October 27 2012 - 07:32 PM

View PostBuDeKai, on October 27 2012 - 03:41 PM, said:

this was discussed at GREAT length in the alpha forums and the devs are well aware with peoples trouble to adapt. the overall opinion was that its a powerful feature that takes getting used to because its exist in no other game.

At first I was annoyed, but once you get used it to you find it better than having a back dash.  I learnt to travel in my assault mech side to side like a crab.  When facing enemies, always face them so you DONT need to turn 180 just to get away from them.  Keep your surroundings in mind and dash to protection before you back turn and boost out of there.  Back turning while enemy has a LOS is bad idea since you just opened your back to enemies to do a lot of damage to you.

First 5-8 games is annoying as you are too used to assuming a back slide boost... But once you adapt, you will play this game differently than a FPS.  I routiently rank 1st or 2nd in my matches in my assault mech.  I always almost travel Sideways while near enemies in such a way that they won't force me to have to to 180 just to dodge or get away from them.  If they make you 180 while they are attacking you, you are as good as dead IMO.

TL;DR
Once your brain stops trying to play this game like any FPS and learn to adapt to the mechanisms, you will find yourself using 180 as an asset and traveling like a crab on the frontlines as you learn that having to 180 while enemy is firing on you is a good way to die.  Back peddling is slow and makes you easy to hit, side to side is the best way to travel  (IMO)

#18 Tetora

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Posted October 27 2012 - 07:37 PM

View PostTalesin, on October 27 2012 - 07:29 PM, said:

Likewise, back-dashing would remove the penalty for playing stupid, letting you 'rewind' from a bad situation very easily.
The 180 is bound to the back-dash as it is easily accessed and unused otherwise.

This is purely a player-acclimatization problem. Get used to it, and it's handy to have quick access to. And once you're used to it being there, you'll end up using it less, accidentally.
Re-binds would be a workable 'solution', but really... in this case, it's pure PEBKAC.

If you learn to travel in your mech in a certain fashion, "side-dodging" with an assault can be used as a Ghetto back peddle. =P  I can often out gun a heavy in CQC with a lot of walls (under the Anti Air turret  when they try to flush me out, but I dont recommend it... a well placed shot turns you into scrape metal. lol).  Combined with a Gun sentry, the heavy is often paniked due to two different directions of being fired on, and me dodging and dashing quickly out of different walls. =P

#19 BeefC4ke

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Posted October 27 2012 - 10:28 PM

I just want to bind it to a separate key or something. I hate hitting S by accident instead of A or D and just spinning in place like a scrub.
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#20 cunningStunts

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Posted October 27 2012 - 10:28 PM

All in all, it's a L2P kindve issue.

Learn to use the mechanic correctly and you will see it is a great feature.  Just not to those who DON'T know how to use it.

and for those of you who're saying that the mouse-bound sensitivity features don't work, and actually make you make SLOWER at turning, shoudl re-evaluate your opinions.

I consTANTLY use this feature on my mouse and it keeps me alive in crucial battles.  It definitely work, and make a huge difference in mech turning speed.

edit- btw I use sharpshooter for EVERYTHING, especially close combat...so I do know what I am talking about,

Edited by cunningStunts, October 27 2012 - 10:30 PM.





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