HAWKEN servers are up and our latest minor update is live!
Forgot Password? SUPPORT REDEEM CODE

Jump to content


Why the New TTK Ruins Hawken


  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
87 replies to this topic

#1 Preternatural

Preternatural

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,056 posts
  • LocationLurking in the Tunnels of Origin

Posted February 08 2014 - 07:56 AM

So I've been with Hawken for a long time now, over a year, through the thick and thin. And, honestly, this is the worst shape I've seen Hawken in...ever. I feel like this new Hawken (I would say Hawken 2.0, but that would imply some positive change) is basically spelling out disaster for this game.

I understand, on some level, why the devs changed the TTK. They wanted to appeal to all the twitch FPS gamers on Steam, I get it. But now, this game is completely not Hawken. It's not. Instead of the good ole' lengthy, simulator-ish duels that we have come to love about Hawken, we now are faced with arcade-y battles that sometimes last only seconds. This new TTK brought forth some changes that, in my opinion, pretty much ruins Hawken.

Sniping. Some will say the new TTK brings tactics and strategy into the game. No. The most used (I would say "only" but the other tactic is that of Alpha Striking. I'll get to that later) new tactic, that I have seen so far, is that of sniping. I believe we are entering the realm of "anti-fun" that Umbre mentioned somewhere. Now, in your fragile little Chinese-rice-paper mechs, you are being sniped at by super powerful weapons from halfway across the map, out of range of your weapons. Because Hawken is a fan of mostly open maps, this is terrible. Because of the reduced TTK, a Slug+Sabot+Slug will normally kill an A class.

A-Class is Forever Ruined. Notice that most teams are comprised entirely of B and C classes. The only A class I've seen in is the Reaper, and that's because the Reaper can sit back and blow away their enemies lounging in relative safety in the back of the battlefield. Infiltrators and Scouts and Beserkers are basically gone. The A class armor just doesn't cut it, in this new Hawken. I am somewhat glad that Scouts aren't OP anymore, but I definitely preferred them being OP than being UP.

Alpha Strikes. Before the new TTK, alpha strikes were bad. But, with the proper maneuvering and aim, the victim of that alpha strike could survive. Not so anymore. If you are alpha striked, that is pretty much the end of you. I cannot tell you how many times I've already been insta-killed by an EOC Raider. Because health is now super low, a single EOC volley + MIRV + Detonator = Death for A class, near death to B class, and about half health for a C.

Decline of Originality. I used to boast to my friends about Hawken. I used to tell them how blindly amazing and original it was. If they said "oh it sounds like Call of Duty" I would verbally slap them. Now, idk. I'm starting to agree with them. I understand that this game is not nearly CoD yet, but it is certainly moving in that direction. This game is becoming much too twitchy for my, and a ton of other player's, liking.

Hawken, in an effort to become more "popular" has completely crapped on everything that was good about this game. Including, and most importantly, the TTK. I like the other things about this patch/move to Steam, the EMP change, the new mech that we have been teased about for some time. But I really do not like the drastic change in gameplay.

After my game loaded from Steam, I joined in and....felt like a complete noob again. I felt like I was learning to play an entirely different game. That shouldn't be the way a player feels after logging back on to his favorite game.
Posted Image

#2 LordTemujin

LordTemujin

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 446 posts
  • LocationCanada

Posted February 08 2014 - 08:01 AM

Please..just stop, can we keep all this "HAWKEN IS OVER! THE END IS NIGH!" stuff to one thread? There are three on the front page right now with the exact same points and arguments you are making. Choose one, make them there, stop wasting peoples time in having to rewrite the SAME freaking arguments.

I am tempted to copy this and paste it in every identical QQ thread that pops up in the hops to reduce this spam...and that is EXACTLY what it is.
Posted Image

#3 NaudyCaudy

NaudyCaudy

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 43 posts

Posted February 08 2014 - 08:02 AM

Couldn't agree more buddy.  The fact that now you have absolutely no chance if you're outnumbered is sad.  Of course if you're outnumbered you should lose but now you can't even escape and find your teammates. I use to love getting into a 1 vs 2 fight taking out one guy and escaping to find my team for cover.... The low armor just doesn't allow that to happen anymore.  I just hope they fix this disaster.

#4 FakeName

FakeName

    Advanced Member

  • Full Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,927 posts
  • LocationIn the cockpit of my Succubus

Posted February 08 2014 - 08:02 AM

That Alpha Strikes are now effective again is a huge plus for Hawken. You can finnaly kill annoying mechs even fi they are surrounded by the team, you just need to escape very quickly.

A-Class is not ruined, I see A-Class still owning whole servers, just practice and you can do it to (I am practicing!)

This patch is awesome, it is fast as hell and instakills are only possible with items, whic hare limited ingame.

"Things change ... thank god, otherwise we would still hunt animals to survive and forge weapons of stone."

- FakeName

Posted Image


#5 Preternatural

Preternatural

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,056 posts
  • LocationLurking in the Tunnels of Origin

Posted February 08 2014 - 08:02 AM

View PostLordTemujin, on February 08 2014 - 08:01 AM, said:

Please..just stop, can we keep all this "HAWKEN IS OVER! THE END IS NIGH!" stuff to one thread? There are three on the front page right now with the exact same points and arguments you are making. Choose one, make them there, stop wasting peoples time in having to rewrite the SAME freaking arguments.

I am tempted to copy this and paste it in every identical QQ thread that pops up in the hops to reduce this spam...and that is EXACTLY what it is.
Whelp sorry. Didn't see the others.
Posted Image

#6 NaudyCaudy

NaudyCaudy

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 43 posts

Posted February 08 2014 - 08:02 AM

View PostLordTemujin, on February 08 2014 - 08:01 AM, said:

Please..just stop, can we keep all this "HAWKEN IS OVER! THE END IS NIGH!" stuff to one thread? There are three on the front page right now with the exact same points and arguments you are making. Choose one, make them there, stop wasting peoples time in having to rewrite the SAME freaking arguments.

I am tempted to copy this and paste it in every identical QQ thread that pops up in the hops to reduce this spam...and that is EXACTLY what it is.
the more its brought up and posted the more the devs have to continue to see that people are unhappy.  I say keep the posts coming until they fix it

#7 Retorrent

Retorrent

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 130 posts

Posted February 08 2014 - 08:03 AM

A class gone? In most of the matches I have played the A class are still the top scorers, last night alone the ranking spots where zerkers and scouts. Granted you may be playing in a higher level then I am but I still see A class on the top of the scores.

#8 LordTemujin

LordTemujin

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 446 posts
  • LocationCanada

Posted February 08 2014 - 08:08 AM

View PostPreternatural, on February 08 2014 - 08:02 AM, said:

View PostLordTemujin, on February 08 2014 - 08:01 AM, said:

Please..just stop, can we keep all this "HAWKEN IS OVER! THE END IS NIGH!" stuff to one thread? There are three on the front page right now with the exact same points and arguments you are making. Choose one, make them there, stop wasting peoples time in having to rewrite the SAME freaking arguments.

I am tempted to copy this and paste it in every identical QQ thread that pops up in the hops to reduce this spam...and that is EXACTLY what it is.
Whelp sorry. Didn't see the others.

https://community.pl...ate-recap-poll/
https://community.pl...vailable-today/
https://community.pl...ut-ruined-imho/

+ the two dozen that have been deleted because its the SAME complaints and they are all being made with A>No logic behind them and B>Bad attitude + negative responses to reasoned answers about their issues.


View PostNaudyCaudy, on February 08 2014 - 08:02 AM, said:

View PostLordTemujin, on February 08 2014 - 08:01 AM, said:

Please..just stop, can we keep all this "HAWKEN IS OVER! THE END IS NIGH!" stuff to one thread? There are three on the front page right now with the exact same points and arguments you are making. Choose one, make them there, stop wasting peoples time in having to rewrite the SAME freaking arguments.

I am tempted to copy this and paste it in every identical QQ thread that pops up in the hops to reduce this spam...and that is EXACTLY what it is.
the more its brought up and posted the more the devs have to continue to see that people are unhappy.  I say keep the posts coming until they fix it

That would be great if it wasn't literally identical arguments that all boil down to "I don't want to change" and then it is reduced to the OP belittling and ignoring all arguments against him.
Posted Image

#9 Preternatural

Preternatural

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,056 posts
  • LocationLurking in the Tunnels of Origin

Posted February 08 2014 - 08:11 AM

I think this new patch appeals to a whole different player base than the original Hawken. You see guys like me really hating the new TTK, and guys like Xacius and burns really liking it.

Maybe the reason I hate this patch so much is because I used to rely on my health pool for kills. When you are playing at an average 14 fps and around 170+ ping, you have to take every advantage you can get. Now, with smaller health, I am constantly being destroyed because I can't keep up.

My very first game after the patch was a Siege in my trusty old Grenadier. I topped the scoreboard by 200+ XP. But all games after that I did terrible. Maybe the only way to do well now is to play C classes...is the purpose of this lowered TTK just to get more players to play C classes, and help them shy away from A's?

View PostLordTemujin, on February 08 2014 - 08:01 AM, said:

View PostNaudyCaudy, on February 08 2014 - 08:02 AM, said:

View PostLordTemujin, on February 08 2014 - 08:01 AM, said:

Please..just stop, can we keep all this "HAWKEN IS OVER! THE END IS NIGH!" stuff to one thread? There are three on the front page right now with the exact same points and arguments you are making. Choose one, make them there, stop wasting peoples time in having to rewrite the SAME freaking arguments.

I am tempted to copy this and paste it in every identical QQ thread that pops up in the hops to reduce this spam...and that is EXACTLY what it is.
the more its brought up and posted the more the devs have to continue to see that people are unhappy.  I say keep the posts coming until they fix it

That would be great if it wasn't literally identical arguments that all boil down to "I don't want to change" and then it is reduced to the OP belittling and ignoring all arguments against him.
No arguments have been thrown against me. And, when you propose an argument to me, I am allowed to have whatever opinion I choose. And, if so many people are having identical arguments, wouldn't it be safe to assume that most of the players agree that the new TTK is not good?

I am not saying they are right, per se, I am saying that most players agree on the same things. If the majority wants change, and have arguments that multiple people agree to, their argument should be considered.

Edited by Preternatural, February 08 2014 - 08:16 AM.

Posted Image

#10 NaudyCaudy

NaudyCaudy

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 43 posts

Posted February 08 2014 - 08:12 AM

View PostLordTemujin, on February 08 2014 - 08:08 AM, said:

View PostPreternatural, on February 08 2014 - 08:02 AM, said:

View PostLordTemujin, on February 08 2014 - 08:01 AM, said:

Please..just stop, can we keep all this "HAWKEN IS OVER! THE END IS NIGH!" stuff to one thread? There are three on the front page right now with the exact same points and arguments you are making. Choose one, make them there, stop wasting peoples time in having to rewrite the SAME freaking arguments.

I am tempted to copy this and paste it in every identical QQ thread that pops up in the hops to reduce this spam...and that is EXACTLY what it is.
Whelp sorry. Didn't see the others.

https://community.pl...ate-recap-poll/
https://community.pl...vailable-today/
https://community.pl...ut-ruined-imho/

+ the two dozen that have been deleted because its the SAME complaints and they are all being made with A>No logic behind them and B>Bad attitude + negative responses to reasoned answers about their issues.


View PostNaudyCaudy, on February 08 2014 - 08:02 AM, said:

View PostLordTemujin, on February 08 2014 - 08:01 AM, said:

Please..just stop, can we keep all this "HAWKEN IS OVER! THE END IS NIGH!" stuff to one thread? There are three on the front page right now with the exact same points and arguments you are making. Choose one, make them there, stop wasting peoples time in having to rewrite the SAME freaking arguments.

I am tempted to copy this and paste it in every identical QQ thread that pops up in the hops to reduce this spam...and that is EXACTLY what it is.
the more its brought up and posted the more the devs have to continue to see that people are unhappy.  I say keep the posts coming until they fix it

That would be great if it wasn't literally identical arguments that all boil down to "I don't want to change" and then it is reduced to the OP belittling and ignoring all arguments against him.
If its identical arguments from different people then something must be wrong.  I understand that some people are enjoying the update and i respect their opinion but that doesnt mean we cant express ourselves.  All of us going to one single thread and complaining can be easily ignored by the devs.  If we continue to post new threads and voice our complaints than they have to see it.  Furthermore a lot of players are just getting on the game now for the first time and also are posting for their first time on the forums.  Not everyone has over 1,000 posts and are familiar with the system.

#11 LordTemujin

LordTemujin

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 446 posts
  • LocationCanada

Posted February 08 2014 - 08:20 AM

I can explain minority versus majority arguments, but I already have, three times.I can explain how there are actual roles to play now, but I already have five times. I can explain how this makes the game more interesting and competitive but I already have two times. Getting the hint yet? Its the same thread, same arguments over and over again with a new OP.

People who are enjoying the game are PLAYING the game instead of complaining about it. The same people are attempting to explain the same points to every dissenter because we are forum normals who routinely deal with this kinda fuzzy bunny.

View PostPreternatural, on February 08 2014 - 08:11 AM, said:


No arguments have been thrown against me. And, when you propose an argument to me, I am allowed to have whatever opinion I choose. And, if so many people are having identical arguments, wouldn't it be safe to assume that most of the players agree that the new TTK is not good?

I am not saying they are right, per se, I am saying that most players agree on the same things. If the majority wants change, and have arguments that multiple people agree to, their argument should be considered.

If you want to read some of the arguments made, go read one of the other dozen threads. Go respond on one of the OTHER dozen threads. The alternative is for me to just copy paste THOSE arguments as well.
Posted Image

#12 Gree

Gree

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 508 posts
  • LocationBrazil

Posted February 08 2014 - 08:38 AM

This patch has brought both satisfaction and frustration to me. I agree that the heavy decrease of the heatlh on every class inflicted a huge estrangement to the old players. However, what the devs said it's true. They did pushed back every mech to it's original roles. Alpha strikes, sniping, quick deaths, punishment for bad positioning, all of this remembers me the old hawken. Not the ascension/invasion one, but the one from march and february. Everything was simpler back there. No huge amounts of health to cover mistakes, sticky healing beams or ridiculous internals. It was survival, quick thinking, positioning.

This patch is just like any other: People play it, hate it, come here on the forums to complain, but in the end they end up getting used to it. Not that I like the extreme low health on a-classes, but I can adapt to it you know?

I remember the first days of the open beta. Pretty much every a-class was a joke next to the others. And why? Because people had no idea of how to properly using them. They were just annoying fast soda cans running around, waiting for something bigger to help them. But in the end, people ended up discovering their perks, and ruled stomped over matches for almost an entire year.

However, it seems now that hawken is running only on extremes. I don't like that. The devs should look back where they started, the REAL hawken.

#13 NaudyCaudy

NaudyCaudy

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 43 posts

Posted February 08 2014 - 08:46 AM

I understand that there are roles to play but a lot of the time you're playing with people who just plain dont know their role.  With this new system if the team doesnt play to their strengths you are screwed and even the player who's playin the right way for their class has absolutely no chance.  In the past if you were on a team the didnt stick together and were reckless you could still hold your own.  Nobody is asking you personally to keep up the argument.  Try this, don't get involved in the argument if you don't want to repeat yourself. Not everybody has read your comments or your replies to these problems and everyone has the right to voice their displeasure with the update.  Instead of bein on this forum where its encouraged to discuss the game go play your "role" in hawken.  Some of us realize that if you're on a bad team now with the new low armor its impossible to carry a bad team.

#14 LordTemujin

LordTemujin

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 446 posts
  • LocationCanada

Posted February 08 2014 - 08:49 AM

View PostNaudyCaudy, on February 08 2014 - 08:46 AM, said:

I understand that there are roles to play but a lot of the time you're playing with people who just plain dont know their role.  With this new system if the team doesnt play to their strengths you are screwed and even the player who's playin the right way for their class has absolutely no chance.  In the past if you were on a team the didnt stick together and were reckless you could still hold your own.  Nobody is asking you personally to keep up the argument.  Try this, don't get involved in the argument if you don't want to repeat yourself. Not everybody has read your comments or your replies to these problems and everyone has the right to voice their displeasure with the update.  Instead of bein on this forum where its encouraged to discuss the game go play your "role" in hawken.  Some of us realize that if you're on a bad team now with the new low armor its impossible to carry a bad team.

Welcome to Competitive play: If You don't know your Role and don't do it properly you are a hinderance

What was the point of this patch? To make the game competitive like it used to be.

If you want to gripe and complain I am ok with it...some people don't deal with change properly. My recommendation was to stop spreading it across 15 threads. Choose one, build on it. Its alot harder to ignore a 50 page thread then 15 3 page threads with a bunch of QQ in them.
Posted Image

#15 LvL1201

LvL1201

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 26 posts

Posted February 08 2014 - 08:50 AM

And camping.
You forgot to add camping.
Because now everything is about "tactical position".
Because agressive playstyle is like total yolo (is THAT still a thing?)
How can you reward (k/d ratio) something like that?

#16 NaudyCaudy

NaudyCaudy

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 43 posts

Posted February 08 2014 - 08:53 AM

View PostLordTemujin, on February 08 2014 - 08:49 AM, said:

View PostNaudyCaudy, on February 08 2014 - 08:46 AM, said:

I understand that there are roles to play but a lot of the time you're playing with people who just plain dont know their role.  With this new system if the team doesnt play to their strengths you are screwed and even the player who's playin the right way for their class has absolutely no chance.  In the past if you were on a team the didnt stick together and were reckless you could still hold your own.  Nobody is asking you personally to keep up the argument.  Try this, don't get involved in the argument if you don't want to repeat yourself. Not everybody has read your comments or your replies to these problems and everyone has the right to voice their displeasure with the update.  Instead of bein on this forum where its encouraged to discuss the game go play your "role" in hawken.  Some of us realize that if you're on a bad team now with the new low armor its impossible to carry a bad team.

Welcome to Competitive play: If You don't know your Role and don't do it properly you are a hinderance

What was the point of this patch? To make the game competitive like it used to be.

If you want to gripe and complain I am ok with it...some people don't deal with change properly. My recommendation was to stop spreading it across 15 threads. Choose one, build on it. Its alot harder to ignore a 50 page thread then 15 3 page threads with a bunch of QQ in them.
Competitive play? So competitive play is giving a HUGE advantage to a team with skilled players vs a team with 1 or 2?  Its not "competitive" when it feels like its 1 vs 6...the point of competitive is for everyone to have a chance and for it to be an even playing field. Theres far too many one sided matches now.  Making it easier for a good team to beat a bad team is not competitive. 15 threads will be noticed by the devs not just one huge thread.

#17 Fazel

Fazel

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 50 posts

Posted February 08 2014 - 08:54 AM

View PostLordTemujin, on February 08 2014 - 08:20 AM, said:

I can explain minority versus majority arguments, but I already have, three times.I can explain how there are actual roles to play now, but I already have five times. I can explain how this makes the game more interesting and competitive but I already have two times. Getting the hint yet? Its the same thread, same arguments over and over again with a new OP.

People who are enjoying the game are PLAYING the game instead of complaining about it. The same people are attempting to explain the same points to every dissenter because we are forum normals who routinely deal with this kinda fuzzy bunny.

View PostPreternatural, on February 08 2014 - 08:11 AM, said:

No arguments have been thrown against me. And, when you propose an argument to me, I am allowed to have whatever opinion I choose. And, if so many people are having identical arguments, wouldn't it be safe to assume that most of the players agree that the new TTK is not good?

I am not saying they are right, per se, I am saying that most players agree on the same things. If the majority wants change, and have arguments that multiple people agree to, their argument should be considered.

If you want to read some of the arguments made, go read one of the other dozen threads. Go respond on one of the OTHER dozen threads. The alternative is for me to just copy paste THOSE arguments as well.

I'm sorry but you are going against youre own argument. You are not adding anything to the topic, just posting youre frustration for the fact that there are too many similar topics (and i'm not saying that youre frustration is wrong in that^^).
If you have already answered other people than just don't answer this specific one. Or, i see no evil in simply auto-quote yourself^^
I'm sure who really have to read these topics will select the one with most activity and posts, so by ignoring the ones you labeled as "copy" you'll achieve more than just saying "it's a copy, i don't want to answer a copy with a copy of my answer" XD

Talking about the patch i really can't see how an increase of the effectiveness of Alphas can do good to a mech-fight simulator.
Cause this is a MECH-FIGHT SIMULATOR, with FIRST PERSON VISUAL, not an FPS. So please, PLEASE, don't make this game a new Call of Duty, PLEASE.
If you want to oneshot people you don't play a game where people are protected by layers of metal.
It would be funny to play a tank game where you die with a single cannon ball? Or a pirate game where you can sink a ship with a single broadside? (i don't know if it is the corrent word, i mean when all the cannons from the same side shot at the same time xD).

Sorry for my english ;P

"Go then. There are other worlds than these"

Jake, Gunslinger


#18 Gree

Gree

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 508 posts
  • LocationBrazil

Posted February 08 2014 - 08:54 AM

View PostPreternatural, on February 08 2014 - 08:11 AM, said:

I think this new patch appeals to a whole different player base than the original Hawken. You see guys like me really hating the new TTK, and guys like Xacius and burns really liking it.

Maybe the reason I hate this patch so much is because I used to rely on my health pool for kills. When you are playing at an average 14 fps and around 170+ ping, you have to take every advantage you can get. Now, with smaller health, I am constantly being destroyed because I can't keep up.

My very first game after the patch was a Siege in my trusty old Grenadier. I topped the scoreboard by 200+ XP. But all games after that I did terrible. Maybe the only way to do well now is to play C classes...is the purpose of this lowered TTK just to get more players to play C classes, and help them shy away from A's?


This patch was like a bucket of cold water in the face. Everyone was used to the large healths and the lonng duels from ascension and invasion, and now they're gone. But keep in mind that almost everything added on patches is often modified. The devs can't ignore the unhappy players, just like they did for a long time on the Technician update. They have to chase a balance between it's playerbase, make something that pleases both twitchy and "ol'hawken" pilots.

For now, try to be open minded to changes. Sometimes they can be healthy :)

#19 Molasses_Jack

Molasses_Jack

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 62 posts
  • LocationThe wilds of Western New York

Posted February 08 2014 - 08:56 AM

View PostLordTemujin, on February 08 2014 - 08:08 AM, said:

That would be great if it wasn't literally identical arguments that all boil down to "I don't want to change" and then it is reduced to the OP belittling and ignoring all arguments against him.

Back off a minute.  Since when do all postings have to be about how great any change to the game are?  Is it beyond your comprehension that some people who love the game might still have disappointment in major changes to how the game needs to be played?  And why do you feel the need to "argue against" how someone feels?  "The game is better now. That's a fact, and you're an idiot for not seeing it. How many times do we have to tell you you're wrong? Why don't you just learn to play in a radically different style than what you've come to enjoy and shut up?"   <-This is the kind of response I'm seeing to posts that are respectful in their criticism of the new changes.  Belittling and ignoring the arguments of some long-time players who are disappointed.

The developers can do what they want and do whatever they think will grow the game and make them more money.  That's business.  But don't get in someone's face because they aren't as happy about a major change as you are.  Preturnatural has an opinion and you have an opinion.  Your opinion isn't more valid just because it's applause for the change rather than disappointment with it.
Time for a break.

#20 dorobo

dorobo

    Advanced Member

  • Full Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 634 posts
  • LocationLegion

Posted February 08 2014 - 08:57 AM

View PostPreternatural, on February 08 2014 - 08:11 AM, said:

Maybe the reason I hate this patch so much is because I used to rely on my health pool for kills. When you are playing at an average 14 fps and around 170+ ping, you have to take every advantage you can get. Now, with smaller health, I am constantly being destroyed because I can't keep up.


Wow 14fps and 170 ping? Thats a fuzzy bunny way to play any game in any shape or form or ttk..




1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users