10 replies to this topic

[Karaipantsu]

Want to air out a little analysis at the moment.

Currently, it seems like close range rules the roost.  The changes to fuel consumption have been a detriment to the game, in my opinion.  Ample cover locations, an almost unlimited boost supply, and tons of burst from the smaller mechs have longer ranged classes at a severe disadvantage when it comes to choices of engagement.

First point: mobility.  The changes to mech speed really hit the B and C class hard.  When boost runs up, all you have left is movement, but the A Class mechs have enough speed to feel combat viable when not boosting.  Additionally, if you catch an A class out in the open and brawl it out 1v1, it'll almost always be a loss for the A Class, but if there's a building or other cover for the A class to dance around, the situation is reversed, especially against a Scout.  The bursty long-reload weapons on most A class allow them to run around the cover without exposing themselves by dodging out, firing off a volley, and dodging back to run some more.  I've run out the boost in my Bruiser trying to chase A-classes around buildings in Saraha, and then get reamed by their superior speed.  This is mostly how it's supposed to work, I know, but with so much cover of this variety available in almost all the maps, it creates a lot of aggravating blue-balls scenarios where I know I have to break off the engagement because I've walked into an area where I have no chance.  This seems especially true of the Scout, with it's special ability for another boost tank.  They are IMPOSSIBLE to run down if they don't feel like engaging, and impossible to top up close with flak and TOW.  The only time I've ever really downed a Scout is after he's done with a teammate and at low life.  Uptown and Prosk are the only levels I've really not run into this issue as much in, because of their design.

Second: burst.  The A-class mechs are all pretty heavily stacked for close range burst, with grenade launchers, TOW rockets, and Flak cannons providing stopping power like woah.  Once they're in close range, there's no realistic way to get them off you, either, and they can close distance like no other class, obviously.  However, their midrange is also great, which leads to aggravating encounters like being flaked to death from mid range.  Scouts have killed me from 200 hp in my Bruiser with their Mini-flak's at a range where I feel Hellfires are most effective (50-60 meters) after I take some TOW splash damage.  That seems impossible.  The only heavier class that can really keep up is the Brawler, because it has the same loadout.

Third: range.  Long range encounters are currently a joke with the SS gimped and no other viable long range mech available, and Midrange encounters are discouraged by the level design and by weapon limitations.

tl;dr - All encounters take place at close to close-mid range, heavily favoring speedier and burstier mechs, which are A-class.  B and C class mechs feel outgunned by their lack of burst and speed.

[RedVan]

quite true.  Class A mechs need a tone down on their damage output.  There's no problem with the game revolving around mid-close range, but all mechs should be able to do so equally to a certain extent.

For example:
SS is more long range, but can be used close range by good players.  The balancing aspect is accuracy of the sabot unscoped, slow rof, and the slower speed of the mech.

Compare that to an inf or scout which has huge damage at close range, and high speed to close the range or get out of the line of fire if they wish.  How does a SS long range something that they cant see_  They may get one shot off, but they'll just go heal.  On top of that, they can dodge cover to cover quite easily to close the range on a SS, and then have the SS dead in about 3 shots.

Edited by RedVan, November 24 2012 - 11:36 AM.

[Necro]

^ i don't think it's a matter of DPS more a matter of burst and speed.

I do feel Bs and Cs need sped up but the amount you fought your own argument makes it seem like there not all too far apart.

And scouts are special because of thier ability, usually scouts escape with less then 100 health or such because they now when to run and where to run.

Being a scout tho, I notice a lot of places with a lack of cover and avoid those spots of the maps so that's another thing also.

Edited by Necro, November 24 2012 - 11:34 AM.

[ReachH]

There are lots of places on maps where you have los down a looong path across an important section of the map. These spots also allow you re-position in a few boosts and cross your original los - giving a very generous kill zone. Something you cannot do with rockets or a grenade launcher.

All topics on the sniper mech so far in CB3 have been second rate players mad about how they can no longer stand toe-to-toe with every other mech. When in reality you can still beat every other mech at medium range, with good map knowledge.

If this doesn't sound appealing or sounds broken, then take up the assault. It functions a lot like the sniper used to in close quarters.

Please close this topic.

[Dreizehn]

I tend to be a bit of a bloodhound, so unless you're really good at staying off the radar somehow, I'll chase you to the ends of the earth, even when you think you're safe. I have chased down A-Classes with a C-Class and taken them out before. They have to stop and repair eventually, and speed difference isn't so huge that its that impossible. Definitely a risky move to take, often impossible if there are team mates screening the guy's retreat. But sometimes grudges are more important than risk/gain.

Also a lot of arguments assume some sort of ideal arena in a 1v1 environment. I've seen Sharpshooters dominate scoreboards before, and yes they do tend to be somewhat lackluster machines to duel with(pretty sure this was intentional). But excellent support fire in a team. Its not so easy to 'go heal' when he's already engaged in a fight, or has people bearing down on him.

[Lithium03]

Prosk is a team not a map.

[Karaipantsu]

I think most of my issues with A class are aimed at the Scout, honestly.  Mini-flak is just a does-it-all weapon, superb in close range and pretty good at medium range, and combined with their escape ability, insane dodging advantage, and TOW rockets, they just seem like far too heavy of a damage dealer combined with too much mobility and not enough fragility to counterbalance it.  Zerker/Assault is really really REALLY good at high levels, but before you hit, like, lvl 12, it's not a stand out beast yet.  The Infiltrator is difficult to use effectively, so that gets a pass on the checks and balances.

However, of the two B Class mechs, currently only the Bruiser is viable in "solo" play, which, let's be honest, is 85% or more of TDM and all of DM matches.  I'd never EEEEEEVER take a Sharpshooter into FFA DM, but the Bruiser holds its own in FFA.  In TDM, the Bruiser is less useful than any of the class A's, and the SS is excellent as a fire support role, but not really any good at a brawl and it's not really going to be racking up the kills to keep players satisfied as a support role.

ReachH, on November 24 2012 - 05:07 PM, said:

There are lots of places on maps where you have los down a looong path across an important section of the map. These spots also allow you re-position in a few boosts and cross your original los - giving a very generous kill zone. Something you cannot do with rockets or a grenade launcher.

This thread isn't JUST about the Sharpshooter, but that's also not true.  The only place I could really think of setting up shop with a Sharp for Sniping in is Prosk, down the main drag near the AA tower.  But no one in their right mind is going to come marching down Main Street into a sniper's fire.  They'll go around into the buildings and pop out closer.  Up on the bridge works too, but it's more exposed to flanking from people jumping up on buildings to jump you.  In Uptown, there's the big ass area in the center for sniping, but not a lot of shots to take before someone ducks behind cover, and certainly not enough time for a kill from 100% health.  Sarah has a lot of good sniping places, but it's very exposed.  And so on, and so forth.

The point isn't that the SS is bad (just underpowered ATM), it's that the game isn't set up so that the SS can be used to any kind of real advantage anywhere currently.  With more boost available on all mechs, enemies can easily close the distance between themselves and cover or themselves and you before you can effectively damage them solo.  Snipers role has been reduced to fire support for the up-close and uncomfortable for them mechs rather than solo hunter.  The sniper can't go "toe to toe" anymore, and that's fine, but it should still be capable of filling the role of sniper: heavy damage in one shot, using the element of surprise to obtain kills.  Currently, it cannot.

[PiVoR]

I think toning down speed of B and C mechs was a mistake, A mechs are even more dominant, especially when they can use Flak now. One salvo from Flak and TOW and its game over, they should give B and C some more HP for exchange.

[ReachH]

Karaipantsu, on November 25 2012 - 01:29 AM, said:

I think most of my issues with A class are aimed at the Scout, honestly.  Mini-flak is just a does-it-all weapon, superb in close range and pretty good at medium range, and combined with their escape ability, insane dodging advantage, and TOW rockets, they just seem like far too heavy of a damage dealer combined with too much mobility and not enough fragility to counterbalance it.  Zerker/Assault is really really REALLY good at high levels, but before you hit, like, lvl 12, it's not a stand out beast yet.  The Infiltrator is difficult to use effectively, so that gets a pass on the checks and balances.

However, of the two B Class mechs, currently only the Bruiser is viable in "solo" play, which, let's be honest, is 85% or more of TDM and all of DM matches.  I'd never EEEEEEVER take a Sharpshooter into FFA DM, but the Bruiser holds its own in FFA.  In TDM, the Bruiser is less useful than any of the class A's, and the SS is excellent as a fire support role, but not really any good at a brawl and it's not really going to be racking up the kills to keep players satisfied as a support role.

ReachH, on November 24 2012 - 05:07 PM, said:

There are lots of places on maps where you have los down a looong path across an important section of the map. These spots also allow you re-position in a few boosts and cross your original los - giving a very generous kill zone. Something you cannot do with rockets or a grenade launcher.

This thread isn't JUST about the Sharpshooter, but that's also not true.  The only place I could really think of setting up shop with a Sharp for Sniping in is Prosk, down the main drag near the AA tower.  But no one in their right mind is going to come marching down Main Street into a sniper's fire.  They'll go around into the buildings and pop out closer.  Up on the bridge works too, but it's more exposed to flanking from people jumping up on buildings to jump you.  In Uptown, there's the big ass area in the center for sniping, but not a lot of shots to take before someone ducks behind cover, and certainly not enough time for a kill from 100% health.  Sarah has a lot of good sniping places, but it's very exposed.  And so on, and so forth.

The point isn't that the SS is bad (just underpowered ATM), it's that the game isn't set up so that the SS can be used to any kind of real advantage anywhere currently.  With more boost available on all mechs, enemies can easily close the distance between themselves and cover or themselves and you before you can effectively damage them solo.  Snipers role has been reduced to fire support for the up-close and uncomfortable for them mechs rather than solo hunter.  The sniper can't go "toe to toe" anymore, and that's fine, but it should still be capable of filling the role of sniper: heavy damage in one shot, using the element of surprise to obtain kills.  Currently, it cannot.

Uh... camping high ground is not what I'm talking about. This is not counter strike. I'm talking about aiming down the bridge on Titan (forgot its new name), then dashing left or right to cover a new avenue, or rounding the corner slightly to intersect your old LOS. So you have crazy coverage. Bazaar is the best example of this: playing around the buildings. Prosk is the most interesting because there are lot of varied 'sniper avenues', and you can dance across the map from one to the other.

Also the very idea of a 'solo-hunter' is just for the infiltrator (on paper), and in reality it is more a question of game awareness of when you can break off and pursue. This is true for all mechs (some less than others).

So yes SS are weaker long range because of the damage nerf, but you never wanted to engage long range anyway even before. This is because mechs can repair. This game is still about medium range, and flanking (at least for the SS).

As for 1-on-1, you have to be much more selective(are you good health_ is there good cover_ are you in danger of being ganged_ are your items off cooldown_ is your ability available_). This is reasonable.

[Akrium]

This topic is confusing me... since when are bruisers supposed to be CQC mech_ I have an 8:1 k:d ratio with mine because I play the support role. I don't chase because I save said boost for when it is actually needed. I make people engage me. I don't go chasing after ppl and putting myself in bad positions. Chasing an A-Class around buildings is him just making you kill your ability to dodge so he can fuzzy bunny you.

ALL mechs are viable solo play, if you understand how to play them. No point in arguing about this though as some ppl want to play their style no matter what.

A lot of people keep talking about the burst of A-Class.. when beserker has no burst other than the tow. Which B and C class have as well. Yes they get a 10% dmg boost for 7 seconds.. but that is once every 60 seconds, or death. That isn't crazy damage to overcome or output. All it does is turn your health into 9/10ths of what it was. So a 500 health A-Class turns into a 450 health A-Class... which is about 1-2 seconds of fire from your primary weapon. That isn't overwhelming or what I would consider burst damage. And that is ONLY if he kills you within the 7 seconds and you don't ever dodge or use LOS during the fight to cancel out the buff.

A lot of issues ppl have still are the fact they stand still, use their boost improperly and/or then fail to dodge at the correct times. That or they chase and put themselves from a good position into a horrid position. A-Class is great at getting people to chase. And that is their game plan. It makes you use what little boost you have to chase. Now you cannot dodge and they still can. Advantage A-Class... stop chasing them and let them go.

Also remember all A-Class mechs will at some point become very very very hard to play. People will figure out speed and dodging mechanics and eat alive most A-Class players. When the game is about mitigation through dodging and it has auto seeking weapons... it will be hard to survive as an A-Class unless you play smart.

B-class has the most "support" roles in my mind. SS and Bruiser are both excellent at providing damage from range and chewing up a team before their teammates get into their range to fight. Assault is really just the best all around mech. It will at some point probably become the dominate mech in the game because of this.

C-Class is huge about positioning. If you put yourself into a bad spot you will die fast. But since you go slower you can sit back more and figure out the best way into places. I'm still not a fan of their abilities yet... morphing into something seems to always fail in some way. Most of the time it is because it has a cast time that gets you destroyed and the negatives of using it far outweigh the bonuses. But still.. they are very good in the hands of ppl that know how to use them. They can help a team push while A-Class flanks and B-Class supports.

/summary:
Learn to play your class and understand movement to survive. Don't put yourself into bad positioning just to get a silly kill. And the game turns very fun and no one class is crazy OP (seeker IS the new OP weapon though).

[Karaipantsu]

Bruiser isn't a CQC mech, it's the kind of midrange, where it's hellfires are hardest to dodge and the SMC/Vulcan are most effective.  No Class B mech has a TOW launcher, though.  The Bruiser is a beast in the right situations.  However, "getting people to engage you" is just playing into a stalemate situation, because they'll be trying to do the same thing.  FPS games reward aggression, not patience (for the most part) because if you're not aggressive, your reward goes away and repairs itself, unless they're the kind of scrub to chase and get themselves into a bad situation.