15 replies to this topic

[Lyker]

When the Mech has reached maximum speed and the player want to boost by double tap it makes the mech stop (Lifting the finger off the key to double tap) and need to regain speed. (Especially when player is out of fuel)

So basiclly double tap forward boots does the complete opposite of whats expected.
It makes you linger even longer in a heated spot when all you want is get out of there with boost.

This needs to be adressed, it's gameplay breaking.

You should be able to use double tab AND boost modifier at the same time.

I am sure more players then me want double tap for sideways movement but a boost button for forward or such.

Repro:
1. Set double tap to boost option
2. Start a game
3. Deplete the mech fuel then move forward in regular speed.
4 Double tap to boost

Notice how the mech goes into complete stop and have to regain its speed.

Now do 2-3 but with modifier key.

Notice how you do not loose any speed.

Edited by Lyker, November 27 2012 - 03:19 PM.

[Animal_Man]

I never have this problem with double tap forward. Maybe it's your keyboard_ Some keyboards have slower double tap registration.

[Wyr]

Lyker, on November 27 2012 - 03:10 PM, said:

You should be able to use double tab AND boost modifier at the same time.

I totally agree. Even with a Mechanical Keyboard double-tap to boost is great in case of left-right, back, but fails in case off forward.

[IguanaMGT]

No, it's not just his keyboard, and I don't think it's a ghosting problem. My keyboard works OK in other games, and I noticed the same problem. I thought it was because of some obstacles on the ground or sides in the middle of the fight, then I thought it's because the game is designed NOT to let you boost when the fuel is low (and not only when it's depleted), but now I'm pretty sure it's a bug and a major disadvantage if it doesn't work that way with the LSHIFT modifier. :-(

[Lyker]

IguanaMGT, on November 27 2012 - 04:41 PM, said:

No, it's not just his keyboard, and I don't think it's a ghosting problem. My keyboard works OK in other games, and I noticed the same problem. I thought it was because of some obstacles on the ground or sides in the middle of the fight, then I thought it's because the game is designed NOT to let you boost when the fuel is low (and not only when it's depleted), but now I'm pretty sure it's a bug and a major disadvantage if it doesn't work that way with the LSHIFT modifier. :-(

Exaclty my point.
A hugh disadvantage for a player just based on what control settings he use.

[Karaipantsu]

Boosting has an initial startup cost.  Even if you've got enough boost to "coast", you may not have enough to actually get going.  This isn't a bug, it's just an inherent problem with double tapping.  This should not be in the Bug Reports.

However, I agree.  I'd like dodges to be double taps, but forward and 180's to be doubletaps.

[Lyker]

Karaipantsu, on November 28 2012 - 06:31 AM, said:

Boosting has an initial startup cost.  Even if you've got enough boost to "coast", you may not have enough to actually get going.  This isn't a bug, it's just an inherent problem with double tapping.  This should not be in the Bug Reports.

However, I agree.  I'd like dodges to be double taps, but forward and 180's to be doubletaps.

You are missing the point.

If a player is using keymodifier to boost and has no fuel to boost when he is already moving forward he will just continue in regular walking speed.

When a player with double tap to boost does the same, the mech stop because the button needs to be released to double tap and the mech stops. Then starts over to gain speed and it takes a while until it reach max speed.

That's why I call it out as a bug.
The gameplay behaves differently based on a players key setup.



Everyone please try it our yourself so you know exaclty what the discussion is about.

Edited by Lyker, November 28 2012 - 07:27 AM.

[Karaipantsu]

Actually, if you run out of boost while doubletap boosting, you just revert to normal walking pace.

However, because forward movement and forward boosting are controlled by the same key, ending boost with doubletap requires you to stop by basic design and there's no real way around that.  It's not a bug, it's an inherent limitation to the system and therefore working as intended.  The only solution is to have dodge be capable of doubletap, but not forward boost/180 turn.

So, again, this should not be a bug report, but a suggestion.

[Lyker]

Karaipantsu, on November 28 2012 - 09:36 AM, said:

Actually, if you run out of boost while doubletap boosting, you just revert to normal walking pace.

However, because forward movement and forward boosting are controlled by the same key, ending boost with doubletap requires you to stop by basic design and there's no real way around that.  It's not a bug, it's an inherent limitation to the system and therefore working as intended.  The only solution is to have dodge be capable of doubletap, but not forward boost/180 turn.

So, again, this should not be a bug report, but a suggestion.

You still dont get what I am saying.

Double tap makes the mech go below walkingspeed while a modifer key player can retain the walkingspeed.

The way around it is simply to let a player use double tap AND a key to boost.

EDIT:
I'll create a youtube video of the problem to make it more clear.

Edited by Lyker, November 28 2012 - 01:29 PM.

[IguanaMGT]

Karaipantsu, you somehow managed to misunderstand him not once, but TWICE, and continued to talk about bananas, while he's talking about apples.
First, nobody talked about "ending the forward boost" situation, neither by running out of fuel, nor intentionally. Actually, there's no problem there, because players with doubletap settings CAN abort boosting forward and continue walking, contrary to your oppinion that it's an inherent limitation and not possible. They just need a bit of practise and timing between releasing the [W] key and pressing it again.
Second, you can't seem to lock-on to the actual problem, you keep talking about other things. Please try as Lyker described it, reproduce the problem and you'll finally understand what we're talking about. For example, depleet the fuel any way you like, then walk forward and while youre still in not-enough-fuel situation try doubletapping forward. No boosting, but NO WALK, either. No such thing with Shift, so that's an incosistency, or an oversight probably, and I'd call it a serious bug because of the disadvantage in moving mechanics for doubletap (DT) players.

The following part should probably go to suggestions, but I'll leave it also here and copy it there if need be.

I just tested a whole bunch of different situations with doubletap and Shift and there IS some inconsistency, both with doubletap and Shift settings.

First, to clear up some things I wasn't familiar with before. There is an initial startup cost for boosting - roughly the 1st notch on the fuel gauge on the B class mech (and below that on C-class). You cannot initialise the boosting if low on fuel. If you're boosting fwd and run out of fuel, mech continues in walk mode. (Both with DT and Shift.) If you're boosting and ending boost to walk again, you can do it very easily in Shift mode, and with a bit of practice in DT mode. So there aren't problems there. No limitations, no mech fullstop while ending the boost so you have to accelerate again. (Atleast it seems to me that way. Tested with the Assault B-class. I'll try it later with the C-class.) The same solution SHOULD be applied to the problem we're talking about, so it's fixed. The game shouldn't interpret BOTH key-release and key-doubletap, but only the doubletap. If there's no fuel, nothing happens, mech continues to walk forward.

There's another inconsistency in controls I've noticed. Lets talk about Shift mode only. When you're "in red" with fuel and you keep left [A] or right [D] pressed down, the boosting WILL NOT activate automatically once the fuel goes past the 1st notch. But, it's not the same with the forward key [W]. As soon as you have enough fuel, the mech boosts forward. I think this should be fixed (or changed) to either all auto-boosts with enough fuel reached, or NEITHER. THIS ACTUALLY GIVES ANOTHER LARGE ADVANTAGE TO THE Shift PLAYERS ONLY. DT players cannot do that, even with a huge ammount of practice. First, because of the aforementioned "mech full stop" bug, and then because they would have to hit the exact moment of reaching the enough fuel with the double-tap. Almost mission impossible. AND all that in the middle of the fight or fleeing with no time to keep an eye on the fuel gauge_ Mission impossible for sure. Now, Shift setup has it all automatically. I'd say there's not ONE bug in controls, but two.

Karaipantsu, feel free to try it out ingame and comment on, but try to drop your "only solution" advertisement in every post. IMHO it' doesn't solve anything except your personal preference and probably some unintentional boosts fwd and 180° turns, to be fair. But it complicates things further MORE, because there won't be ANY "simple mode" with less keys for beginners as DT-mode seems to be now, and there won't be any "unwanted-dodges/backturns safe mode" for players that have a bad habit of hitting the keys repeatedly (Pros_) in the middle of the close-combat carnage, as Shift-mode seems to be now. And I feel that was an idea behind this current implementation of the controls by the developers. Let them FIX current Shift- and DT-modes, then they can implement a hybrid mode or both at the same time, as some players request also.

Edited by IguanaMGT, November 28 2012 - 02:50 PM.

[Lyker]

IguanaMGT, on November 28 2012 - 02:29 PM, said:

Karaipantsu, you somehow managed to misunderstand him not once, but TWICE, and continued to talk about bananas, while he's talking about apples.
First, nobody talked about "ending the forward boost" situation, neither by running out of fuel, nor intentionally. Actually, there's no problem there, because players with doubletap settings CAN abort boosting forward and continue walking, contrary to your oppinion that it's an inherent limitation and not possible. They just need a bit of practise and timing between releasing the [W] key and pressing it again.
Second, you can't seem to lock-on to the actual problem, you keep talking about other things. Please try as Lyker described it, reproduce the problem and you'll finally understand what we're talking about. For example, depleet the fuel any way you like, then walk forward and while youre still in not-enough-fuel situation try doubletapping forward. No boosting, but NO WALK, either. No such thing with Shift, so that's an incosistency, or an oversight probably, and I'd call it a serious bug because of the disadvantage in moving mechanics for doubletap (DT) players.

The following part should probably go to suggestions, but I'll leave it also here and copy it there if need be.

I just tested a whole bunch of different situations with doubletap and Shift and there IS some inconsistency, both with doubletap and Shift settings.

First, to clear up some things I wasn't familiar with before. There is an initial startup cost for boosting - roughly the 1st notch on the fuel gauge on the B class mech (and below that on C-class). You cannot initialise the boosting if low on fuel. If you're boosting fwd and run out of fuel, mech continues in walk mode. (Both with DT and Shift.) If you're boosting and ending boost to walk again, you can do it very easily in Shift mode, and with a bit of practice in DT mode. So there aren't problems there. No limitations, no mech fullstop while ending the boost so you have to accelerate again. (Atleast it seems to me that way. Tested with the Assault B-class. I'll try it later with the C-class.) The same solution SHOULD be applied to the problem we're talking about, so it's fixed. The game shouldn't interpret BOTH key-release and key-doubletap, but only the doubletap. If there's no fuel, nothing happens, mech continues to walk forward.

There's another inconsistency in controls I've noticed. Lets talk about Shift mode only. When you're "in red" with fuel and you keep left [A] or right [D] pressed down, the boosting WILL NOT activate automatically once the fuel goes past the 1st notch. But, it's not the same with the forward key [W]. As soon as you have enough fuel, the mech boosts forward. I think this should be fixed (or changed) to either all auto-boosts with enough fuel reached, or NEITHER. THIS ACTUALLY GIVES ANOTHER LARGE ADVANTAGE TO THE Shift PLAYERS ONLY. DT players cannot do that, even with a huge ammount of practice. First, because of the aforementioned "mech full stop" bug, and then because they would have to hit the exact moment of reaching the enough fuel with the double-tap. Almost mission impossible. AND all that in the middle of the fight or fleeing with no time to keep an eye on the fuel gauge_ Mission impossible for sure. Now, Shift setup has it all automatically. I'd say there's not ONE bug in controls, but two.

Karaipantsu, feel free to try it out ingame and comment on, but try to drop your "only solution" advertisement in every post. IMHO it' doesn't solve anything except your personal preference and probably some unintentional boosts fwd and 180° turns, to be fair. But it complicates things further MORE, because there won't be ANY "simple mode" with less keys for beginners as DT-mode seems to be now, and there won't be any "unwanted-dodges/backturns safe mode" for players that have a bad habit of hitting the keys repeatedly (Pros_) in the middle of the close-combat carnage, as Shift-mode seems to be now. And I feel that was an idea behind this current implementation of the controls by the developers. Let them FIX current Shift- and DT-modes, then they can implement a hybrid mode or both at the same time, as some players request also.

You nailed it sir, thank you. =)

I really hope the devs see this and get this fixed before 12/12.

Edited by Lyker, November 29 2012 - 05:31 AM.

[Lyker]

Video of the issue here:

[Karaipantsu]

Ah, now I got it.  Yeah, I can get behind that now that I understand.  

[Lyker]

Karaipantsu, on November 29 2012 - 12:19 PM, said:

Ah, now I got it.  Yeah, I can get behind that now that I understand.  

=)

Devs, could we get a comment on this please_

Edited by Lyker, November 29 2012 - 12:48 PM.

[Lyker]

It's getting closer to release.
Please give me an update.

[IguanaMGT]

I tried playing with shift-only and I gave up. I guess I'm playing with doubletap for too long. I'm afraid if this is not fixed, the game won't hold my interest for too long after the release. Just to note I'm not considering to buy any special type controller for this game, my keyboard & Razer mouse ought to be enough. If the rumours of the Hawken-specific controller are true, maybe that's why the devs aren't too concerned with controls issues in the current state of the game_ Thinking along the line "If controls aren't good enough for you, buy the dedicated controller, period.". I hope that's not the case, though.