229 replies to this topic

[Zyrusticae]

Yes, I am aware there is another topic on this on the first page. But I want to explain why the Hellfire is so terrible, so here we go:

• The ignition delay is too long. This is by far the most crippling defect of the Hellfire. It is why it's completely impossible (no, not just difficult, impossible) to land it against moving targets in close-range. It is why it is so easy to just take cover every time someone fires them off. It makes it completely useless against any skilled player. It makes it COMPLETELY useless against any A-class, no matter what situation they're in. It is a terrible, awful defect that makes it all but unusable in 75% of actual combat situations, and it really should be fixed, if not removed outright.
  
• The spread is incredibly harsh at closer ranges. This is what results in such travesties as half your rockets striking the ground when you're firing uphill. Flavor-wise, it's very cool to see a huge spread of rockets coalesce into one giant mass of death when firing at long range. It's not so cool to see half of them miss after painstakingly timing a shot half a second ahead of the target (because that's how far you have to go with how long the ignition delay is).
  
• The weapon is highly susceptible to protection from cover. Of all the secondaries, it is by far the worst in this area. TOWs can do damage around corners thanks to mid-air detonations. The SABOT has projectiles that travel fast enough to land before a target can dodge around a corner. Grenade launcher... well, I don't need to explain that one. Hellfires, meanwhile, have the massive delay AND the warning signal in addition to the travel time inherent in the rockets themselves which gives the target plenty of time to find cover before they land - and even if there isn't any cover, they can just walk in one direction and then dodge in the opposite direction to cause them to go wide.

So think about that for a second. At what range do Hellfires exceed_ Well, they suck at close combat because of the delay and spread. They suck at long range because of how easy it is to dodge or find cover to intercept them. So the only thing left for them is mid-range combat, right_ Unfortunately, this exact situation is too rare to justify the use of Hellfires when TOWs work even better in that same situation. They're easy to dodge (ESPECIALLY with A-classes), easy to block with cover, easy to completely nullify by fighting in the target's face... they have no use except for supporting teammates at mid-to-long ranges in completely open fields and for stomping newbies who still don't know the basics of combat in Hawken. That's it. I can't even recall losing to someone wielding Hellfires... ever. It's just way too easy to nullify the weapon completely. If they're at range you just move from cover to cover and get in their face, and their weapon is entirely 100% useless.

Funny thing is, most of this could be avoided if they just didn't have that gawd-awful ignition delay. As it is, any player that's paying any attention at all has far too easy a time dodging them and trying to land any hits with the thing is an exercise in constant frustration. They might even need a boost in travel time so players don't get so much advance warning before they land (though this also makes them conveniently easier to dodge at range since their agility is lower).

At any rate, I'm 100% certain something needs to be done to make them less useless, because only people who really, REALLY like the flavor of a lock-on weapon are going to be using this thing when players figure out how to beat it.

[Deu]

This is by far the most thought out cry cry thread. This secondary can be used in all the ways you said it couldn't if used correctly. Be it tilting the gun to curve the missiles around the corner or speed locking as I call it. Anything can be dodged in this game. Not trying to be difficult but you're just wrong and/or using the mech incorrectly. It happens. There are guns with higher learning curves than others so that skillful players are rewarded in some way for landing shots not everyone can easily. If they take learning curves away from this game then I'm just done.

Edited by Deu, December 18 2012 - 11:45 PM.

[Zyrusticae]

I'm speaking large from a perspective of having used and fought against the weapon many times. In no situation have I ever actually been afraid of someone wielding Hellfires. Hell, I can't even recall the last time someone with them topped the leaderboard (it's usually someone with a recruit or a berzerker) - that is to say, besides myself.

I've played a bruiser throughout the entirety of closed beta and a huge chunk of open beta. I've regularly topped leaderboards but I can recognize when I'm doing so because I'm playing against mostly stationary targets and when I'm actually up against competent opponents this thing is useless.

You've got plenty of noobs to stomp with it now, but as more and more players become competent you'll be howling with frustration at all the myriad ways this weapon can be countered that other weapons do not suffer.

Edited by Zyrusticae, December 18 2012 - 11:58 PM.

[DexteraDomini]

Deu, on December 18 2012 - 11:39 PM, said:

This is by far the most thought out cry cry thread. This secondary can be used in all the ways you said it couldn't if used correctly. Be it tilting the gun to curve the missiles around the corner or speed locking as I call it. Anything can be dodged in this game. Not trying to be difficult but you're just wrong and/or using the mech incorrectly. It happens. There are guns with higher learning curves than others so that skillful players are rewarded in some way for landing shots not everyone can easily. If they take learning curves away from this game then I'm just done.

Pretty much this.

A lot of the complaining or "[insert thing here] sucks!" comes from player-failure rather than actual balance issues. At least as far as my experience has shown.

~

In this particular instance, though, kudos for giving it some actual thought. A few thoughts in response:

1) I have never even noticed this as an issue. Both on the firing and receiving ends. I actually fear hellfires more than TOWS. TOWS are common and easier to dodge as you learn to combat against them. Hellfires are less common, have a strange firing pattern, and wreck you if you aren't paying attention. (The same could be said of all weapons I suppose, but I'm considering this a special case).

2) Yes. The spread IS harsh at close range. Missiles are not meant to be point-blank roflstompbbq. They are medium to long range weapons, use them as such. I'm attributing this one to user-error.

3) You mean people use cover to avoid taking damage from your weapons_ And that some - but not all - weapons can still utilize their specific ammunition type to land damage in these circumstances_ I apologize for sounding a bit snarky here but this is just silly.

Each weapon has its place. The Hellfire Missiles function well when used at medium to long range, and while supporting teammates. They can also be used to deal an ABSURD amount of damage to a player that is not expecting them. I say that being an A-Class pilot that has eaten a few due to negligence.

If every single weapon were set up so that it were usable in every situation that was convenient for every player, FPS games would be absolute trainwrecks.

[Deu]

You are asking to buff a weapon not because of it's inability to deliver damage but your own lack of ability to use it to it's full potential. Do you understand why that is wrong_ If you can't land your HFM then Seeker until you can get in a position that you can. Don't put yourself in a position where you cannot land your own attacks. This is a flaw in strategy not the weapon design. It's okay though because your positional awareness gets better the more you play and you'll know exactly which vantage point to switch to depending on where the enemy is heading, when their dashes are up, and how much fuel you believe them to still have in those canisters. I can name 5 players who go pro on the rocketeer and never go back which is why I feel strongly that you aren't using the mech correctly yet.

[Omega22]

I agree and support Zyrusticae completely in all that you have said... I have experienced this in game and compared to the TOW this is a JOKE.. i have had more shots land on the MEch compared to the Hell Fire Missles ..

What a Joke , could they not think of a alternate , man give me a TOW to outfit my Bruiser ...

I did not see this happen in CB3 playing with the Rocketer...  after the release of open beta ... the HELL became a SICK MINDLESS JOKE of a weapon.

Please take this back to the drawing boards... or replace

[Bratwurst]

Using the hellfire forced me to lead my targets when not locking-on, a direct from a hellfire, you do not want to be on the receiving end of the weapon, from long range, an unsuspecting enemy will be dead in seconds, even a c-class will not stand a chance, even with turret mode on. That is why I love the bruiser so much.

[RedVan]

Hellfire is perfect imo.  Any more powerful and it would be OP (kinda like the tow)

[Omega22]

and i am talking about have a clear , unblocked shot and you fire for a direct hit and it flys off target like a spread/bloom effect.... what gives man...

so i dont think its about skill... skill is about dodge  enemy fire

[Deu]

Omega22, on December 19 2012 - 12:36 AM, said:

and i am talking about have a clear , unblocked shot and you fire for a direct hit and it flys off target like a spread/bloom effect.... what gives man...

so i dont think its about skill... skill is about dodge  enemy fire

Oh it's Omega22 /skiptext

[Necro]

Deu, on December 19 2012 - 12:42 AM, said:

Omega22, on December 19 2012 - 12:36 AM, said:

stuff

more stuff

You didn't skip it in fact you quoted it_

[145154151164145]

Yes this weapon is useless against very skilled players, but so are most that are not point and shoot burst damage weapons (except grenade launcher).  Point is moot though among your average pubber.

[Deu]

Necro, on December 19 2012 - 01:22 AM, said:

Deu, on December 19 2012 - 12:42 AM, said:

Omega22, on December 19 2012 - 12:36 AM, said:

stuff

more stuff

You didn't skip it in fact you quoted it_

It was more of a warning to others.

[Gunhed]

In an open space clash..normaly I take two salvos and burn..unable to dodge cuz they'r homing missiles..overpowered to me..unplayable to you..

[Beemann]

Remove spread, put player skill and decision making into firing the weapon (read: HL2 style laser tracking please), fix explosion stunlock, fix firing delay across the board (fire then dash != I want to dash into that wall and blow myself up)

Weapon works with low skill play (AOE spam), weapon works with high skill play (curving around corners through clever laser guiding), missiles get reliable, weapons in general stop acting silly

Problems_

[Juodvarnis]

I'm inclined to agree with Beemann.

To add, there is nothing more annoying than pressing launch ZE MISSILESZ!! And during the delay a friendly dodging into your face and you blow up "PILOT ERROR" well it wasn't MY ERROR that's for sure!

[HotDog]

Another Weapons thread....

OK the Hellfire could be more functional:

Original Hellfire:https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/AGM-114_Hellfire

This would be AWSOME - If the Hellfire could do the (LOBL, Lock On Before Launch) and (LOAL, Lock On After Launch)

It would bring more dynamic to the Hellfireusers and would reconsidure tactics in a Game on how to use different mechtypes.

Best regards

-BV-HotDog

[Omega22]

lock on to what _open space_ heck going toe to toe with a scout and infiltrator and still no good , the vulcan says shred enemies in close range but it seems to be the other way around... i get shredded to bits ... another joke weapon + another bigger Joke of weapon _HELL FIRE MISSLES with a delay timmer or 10 seconds - to refire and miss and by that time u dead...

[HotDog]

Hi,

ive been Testing the different Class Mechs and one point is for sure in Hawken. Movement is the key to success!

I know it sounds hard but see this:

A Class Mechs - Hit and Run
B Class Mechs - More Punishment but still there is Movement involved!
C Class Mechs - Move a little Extreme Punishment and in a Team is Deadly in close combat!

Why am i saying this:

Its Easy - This is a Teambased Tactical game and as a solo player you dont have a chance.

------- It realy doent matter how the weapon loadout is but how to use it and when to use it ------ This can help or even destroy a Team since other Player fill in a different role in combat-----

For Example:

Im a A-Class Mech Pilot its just my style to play. But i have to count on my team to push the line! Like this i can capture the Mech that does not have Team support and destroy it.

My second role is to find Camping Mechs that dont have Team support and distract them.

On a Teamfight situation - Ill just rush to the center and stall them with DMG and even EMPs like this my team can gain a advantage to attack.

--------------

MY Point: Teamplay is Key

Best regards

-BV-HotDog

[Omega22]

Tactical Shooter... i prefer hardcore Shooter of mass destruction with ungodly mayhem !!!

Gunam Style !!!