213 replies to this topic

[JackKerras]

EMPs are an awesome way for the devs to incentivize purchasing credits to refill their countermeasures.

Also, they're a terrible mechanic.

Stuns are boring.  Disarms are boring.  Removing control of your 'mech is super boring.  The only reason I'm remotely okay with having a control-removal mechanic regarding overheats is because you're inflicting it upon yourself.

EMPs are just irritating.  They're an AoE disarm that totally removes your combat effectiveness.  They are not interesting to be hit by, they give rise to no particular playstyle, and they're a great way to spend money on HAWKEN when the system ought to be 'pay because you like us/because this art is cool' not 'pay to avoid having all the fun sucked out of your game'.

Very much like many temporary-invincibility mechanics or stun-locks or other things, they make the game very easy for one person to survive and very hard for the other person with no real drawbacks except 'easy to dodge'.  There's no fighting with EMPs.  You get hit with it and that's all.  If I get hit with a TOW or an HE charge or something, cool, I can fight.  If I get hit with an EMP, I have to go.  I'm a good dodger, but I am here to fight people, not be repeatedly forced flee from them because I haven't paid enough.

I would absolutely pay money for this game.

I will absolutely never buy a single consumable countermeasure, ever.

Consumable stun breakers are the most egregious abuse of a game system for profit I hope I ever run into.  They suck in every other game they exist in, and they suck extra in action mech games that are otherwise an absolute trainload of fun.

[Woobins]

Hiphin, on December 23 2012 - 08:07 AM, said:

FOR all of you Players who Don't know, you can counter the EMP with the Battery charger Countermeasure. The EMP has a Cool Down, The EMP shoots Slow, its balanced.

When HIT with an EMP RUN do not stand there as if your legs are pinned to the ground
Several times I was EMP'ed ran and Killed the person who EMP'ed me and chased....

agreed, I don't even use countermeasures, not out of some moral high ground but simply because i keep forgetting to click it on, I habitually do a runner/be as annoying as possible throughout the EMP lock and it ends up being a successful escape or tables turned regardless, I really don't believe EMP is OP at all, and I don't even use it that much.

Being disabled for a few seconds is boring_ What compared to the whole 10-20 minutes  firing the most absurd volume of ballistics at someone_ I see being EMP'd as almost like a break, keeps you on your toes that reminds you not everything is hold left click.

Edited by Woobins, December 23 2012 - 08:34 PM.

[TwiceDead]

Jesus fuzzy bunny christ these guys refuse to acknowledge that the EMP is a piece of fuzzy bunny that should never have existed in the first place since all it does is fuzzy bunny up everyones day functioning as an iWin button in a fast-paced mech FPS.

[Teljaxx]

There were way too many times in Closed Beta when someone shot an EMP at me, and I shot one back at them, then we stared at each other for a few seconds, then the game continued. And that was before it was SEVEN SECONDS! Now it feels like "oh, I got hit by an EMP, let me go make a sandwich and see if I can shoot again by the time I get back."

I have actually stopped fighting people because someone else hit them with an EMP. I usually go for the person who fired the EMP when that happens to thank them for ruining the fight. I have also seen a few obviously new players in Open Beta dominating DM games, simply because they use the EMP, and then they complain about how Hawken is too easy.

And the countermeasures...

In a normal DM game with no HC boost, you can make about 130 HC if you win. a single countermeasure charge costs about 100 HC. that means that if you counter a single EMP, you basically forfeit your winnings. Is that worth it_

The only way I could see keeping so long a shutdown, is if they completely remove the blast at the impact point, as well as slowing the projectile down. This would make it closer to the HE charge with how hard it is to actually hit someone, and removes the ability to hit multiple people at once. Although, even with these changes, seven seconds still seems way too long for how quickly you can die in Hawken.

[Kitsunin]

The problem with EMPs, is they present no counter-play to the table. The reason silences/disarms work in other games is because they are necessary to shut someone's combat ability down so they are out of the picture at a crucial time, but in this case they act as a counter to someone with very powerful skills/weapons you need to remove from the picture. It doesn't work in a game like Hawken because everyone is a threat, there's no need to shut down a dangerous individual so the EMP functions as just another form of attack, one which is nothing but irritating for the one attacked. Getting an EMP thrown at you is like getting a grenade thrown at you, only the result of failing to dodge is having your weapons shut down for seven seconds, you don't need to think about the possibility of getting an EMP thrown at you because by avoiding regular fire you're doing the same thing you have to do to avoid getting EMPed. When you are EMPed you don't need to react in a special way, just get out of the fray, but this doesn't help the gameplay because that's already how you react to overheating or having low health.

And the fact that there are countermeasures which cost credits per-use, and let you cancel an EMP...whaaaaaaat.

Edited by Kitsunin, December 24 2012 - 01:26 AM.

[Animal_Man]

EMP is not overpowered, countermeasures help you once per life. If you get EMP again, than you deserve the full duration of the EMP. People need to complain less, and play more. Pew Pew

[Kitsunin]

Animal_Man, on December 24 2012 - 01:34 AM, said:

EMP is not overpowered, countermeasures help you once per life. If you get EMP again, than you deserve the full duration of the EMP. People need to complain less, and play more. Pew Pew

Err. Sorry_ You're saying it's fair because you can give up all the HC you earn to make it so_ I certainly agree if you get hit twice in one life by an EMP you deserve it...but who in their right mind uses countermeasures_ What kind of bass ackwards logic is that_

[Beemann]

I feel as though the people playing the victim-blaming game are just awful at aiming the EMP
Seriously, it's the easiest weapon/item/etc to connect with. Splash the ground and watch it disable people outside of the actual visual blast
You can hit people through walls with it, rush and detonate with a CM to negate its effect on you, and it's an item that comes back after a certain timespan
If you wanna talk about newbies and bad players trying to force balance their way, why don't we talk about the people who think it's okay to have 7 seconds of free beatdown time on an opponent in a game where you can kill in half of that

[cognos]

NotKjell, on December 23 2012 - 08:32 AM, said:

Yes, the general balancing strategy of nerfing things into the ground sucks and is overused. But there is such a thing as overpowered, and it annoys me when people act like there isn't. If the AR did 100 damage per shot instead of 17 but everything was left the same, that's overpowered. You can't tell someone 'oh just play around it, I managed to kill someone using it', that's just stupid at that point. At that point the best gun would obviously be the AR, and you would use it or die. Variety would disappear, particularly in the competitive scene.

And this is why the EMP is banned in the upcoming tournament. It's the best item in the game hands down, no comparison. It's so versatile, so easy to use and give such a huge payoff. A direct hit with the HE charge does 160 damage with a direct hit, and it has a unique travel time and no mid-air detonate. With 8 seconds of shutdown, I can kill a C-class from full health without him being able to fight back. And I can hit him through a wall. With teamwork, chain EMPing someone is utterly absurd and due to the obscene splash radius you can easy EMP more than 1 enemy at a time. Hell, in CBE3 the EMP had half the duration yet was still the best item in the game. Scrims, pugs and matches between clans had EMP's flying everywhere.

When something is the only truely viable choice, it's overpowered.

In the prev releases the emp was about a 3sec shutdown - now its a 8 sec shutdown and usually I am able to evade after beeing hit. It's not "by far" the best item. IMHO the machine gun tower is by far more powerful than that stupid noop emp. You cant kill a class a by emping it - class b and c are easier but still i am able to flee with my bruiser - with my inf its abolutely no problem to evade the kill move of the EMPer. Usually I kill them after i reactive because the EMPers get to hasty.
Now you have the opportunity to counter the EMP - so EMP is worthless in some situations. But still i am using exstinguisher because i am able to evade.

What do you want_ Items that are useless_ Sometimes Balance is overrated - the players pick and balance based on their abbility

Edited by cognos, December 24 2012 - 03:41 AM.

[Kitsunin]

cognos, on December 24 2012 - 03:37 AM, said:

In the prev releases the emp was about a 3sec shutdown - now its a 8 sec shutdown and usually I am able to evade after beeing hit. It's not "by far" the best item. The machine gun tower IMHO by far more powerful than that stupid noop emp. You cant kill a class a by emping it - class b and c are easier but still i am able to flee with my bruiser - with my inf its abolutely no problem to evade the kill move of the EMPer. Usually I kill them after i reactive because the EMPers get to hasty.
Now you have the opportunity to counter the EMP - so EMP is worthless in some situations. But still i am using exstinguisher because i am able to evade.

What do you want_ Items that are useless_ Sometimes Balance is overrated - the players pick and balance based on their abbility

The balance on EMPs isn't bad, per se. The problem is that they make the game less fun. They aren't fun to use and they CERTAINLY aren't fun to deal with.

[Rosengren]

cognos, on December 24 2012 - 03:37 AM, said:

You cant kill a class a by emping it - class b and c are easier but still i am able to flee with my bruiser - with my inf its abolutely no problem to evade the kill move of the EMPer.

The EMP makes it so that you absolutely must spend the next seven seconds fleeing for your life, regardless of how much health you have. All because you got hit once. Getting hit by a missile, grenade, sabot or whatever from full health still gives you a fighting chance. Fleeing is only one of two options and if you do flee you at least have the ability to choose how far you run and when or if you turn around to counterattack.

[Hiphin]

Thanks for all the FeedBack,

It's interesting me and my friends are all Top 3 players...
They don't think anything is wrong with it.

Some of them don't even use the EMP.

We seriously didn't have any trouble with balance.
I used the Brawler at level 1 and got kills and got killed.
I will not be using a Emp with him cause of the speed and Power

I felt the level 1 brawler was underpowered, which is how it should feel.
With just a few levels I'm starting to feel like its a Monster.

And the MG turret is a nice companion... Better not let people catch on to the MG turret though...
Cause it'll get NERFED!!


So once I get Good I'm a cheater and its gonna need Balance.
I hate that so much cause its not really a balancing of mechanics its a balancing of unskilled players
capabilities vs. the advantage of being a better player. You make it take more to be Good is all,
then when people exceed that bar, you raise it again.(I don't mind Challenge but Below is a Bar too High for Fun)

If it doesn't feel like a fun game anymore, its like a job.
"Oh NOOOOoooooo people are complaining that the .50 Cal is too powerful!!!!!" "I have an Idea, Make it take 3 headshots to kill someone"  EXCELLENT!!!!

[Hiphin]

cognos, on December 24 2012 - 03:37 AM, said:

NotKjell, on December 23 2012 - 08:32 AM, said:

Yes, the general balancing strategy of nerfing things into the ground sucks and is overused. But there is such a thing as overpowered, and it annoys me when people act like there isn't. If the AR did 100 damage per shot instead of 17 but everything was left the same, that's overpowered. You can't tell someone 'oh just play around it, I managed to kill someone using it', that's just stupid at that point. At that point the best gun would obviously be the AR, and you would use it or die. Variety would disappear, particularly in the competitive scene.

And this is why the EMP is banned in the upcoming tournament. It's the best item in the game hands down, no comparison. It's so versatile, so easy to use and give such a huge payoff. A direct hit with the HE charge does 160 damage with a direct hit, and it has a unique travel time and no mid-air detonate. With 8 seconds of shutdown, I can kill a C-class from full health without him being able to fight back. And I can hit him through a wall. With teamwork, chain EMPing someone is utterly absurd and due to the obscene splash radius you can easy EMP more than 1 enemy at a time. Hell, in CBE3 the EMP had half the duration yet was still the best item in the game. Scrims, pugs and matches between clans had EMP's flying everywhere.

When something is the only truely viable choice, it's overpowered.

In the prev releases the emp was about a 3sec shutdown - now its a 8 sec shutdown and usually I am able to evade after beeing hit. It's not "by far" the best item. IMHO the machine gun tower is by far more powerful than that stupid noop emp. You cant kill a class a by emping it - class b and c are easier but still i am able to flee with my bruiser - with my inf its abolutely no problem to evade the kill move of the EMPer. Usually I kill them after i reactive because the EMPers get to hasty.
Now you have the opportunity to counter the EMP - so EMP is worthless in some situations. But still i am using exstinguisher because i am able to evade.

What do you want_ Items that are useless_ Sometimes Balance is overrated - the players pick and balance based on their abbility

You my friend must be Top 3 or you got emped and realized its not OP and you did something amazing... you used Shift!!!!

[TwiceDead]

Hiphin, on December 24 2012 - 06:11 AM, said:

Thanks for all the FeedBack,

It's interesting me and my friends are all Top 3 players...
They don't think anything is wrong with it. Some of them don't even use the EMP.

You and your pubstomping friends don't think there's anything wrong with it_ I see they have no idea what they're talking about.

Quote

We seriously didn't have any trouble with balance.
I used the Brawler at level 1 and got kills and got killed.
I will not be using a Emp with him cause of the speed and Power

Thank you for you confession, but just because you're not using it doesn't make it any less OP.

Quote

I felt the level 1 brawler was underpowered, which is how it should feel.
With just a few levels I'm starting to feel like its a Monster.

Ironic considering 80-90% of the game is skill-based... Not level based.

Quote

And the MG turret is a nice companion... Better not let people catch on to the MG turret though...
Cause it'll get NERFED!!

So far I don't see any reason to nerf this thing. Until the community sees it otherwise, it will remain as is.

Quote

So once I get Good I'm a cheater and its gonna need Balance.
I hate that so much cause its not really a balancing of mechanics its a balancing of unskilled players
capabilities vs. the advantage of being a better player. You make it take more to be Good is all,
then when people exceed that bar, you raise it again.(I don't mind Challenge but Below is a Bar too High for Fun)
If it doesn't feel like a fun game anymore, its like a job.

Yeah there are good players out there pub-stomping, but the EMP does not factor within player skill. There's a multitude of people pub-stomping without the use of EMP, it's just that EMP is the bad players solution to all his problems... Or someone who enjoys to exploit the only viable offensive item there is. (Well I use MG turret but ohwell.)

Quote

"Oh NOOOOoooooo people are complaining that the .50 Cal is too powerful!!!!!" "I have an Idea, Make it take 3 headshots to kill someone"  EXCELLENT!!!!

What are you trying to prove with this_ Any fuzzy bunny can see THAT is a bad idea.

When you can kill someone in TWO Seconds in this game, seven seconds of free reign is an eternity and a ticket to the inside of satans furnace, which is basically you surrounded by burning and melting metal trapped inside your mech. A H.E Charge deals damage, yes. But in seven seconds, you can kill THREE opponents that are too stupid to run away with little to NO effort. You don't need to worry about dodging or moving anymore, just sit still and watch the fuzzy bunny squaddle about helplessly while you hold your firetrigger blowing them to pieces one by one with NO effort involved. If you can't kill a person in a 7 second duration, then you are just bad, and should be ashamed for being such a bad tracker. If you can't hit a person with the EMP, then you should be even more ashamed considering the darn thing has a radius at the size of the FU--NG globe!

Quote

You my friend must be Top 3 or you got emped and realized its not OP and you did something amazing... you used Shift!!!!

Oh my god...

[Karaipantsu]

It's been nearly 2 weeks of playing pretty much every day since the OB started, and I can't say I feel I've lost many kills or died more often than I should have because of EMP's.  I just reeeeally wish the graphic for the explosion was actually indicative of its real range.  I'm sick of thinking I've dodged 'em because I'm outside the radius of the graphic and still getting shut down.

Whenever I get EMPed, I just have to run a bit.  That doesn't seem like too much of an annoyance.

[The_Silencer]

AsianJoyKiller, on December 23 2012 - 10:54 AM, said:

The_Silencer, on December 23 2012 - 10:18 AM, said:

Although I got one question for you AJK (and to PlagueDoctor as well...): Do you use EMPs whilst you're piloting a CupCake mech_ Just curious on this.

I use them on damn near everything. Why wouldn't I when they give such a large advantage_

Perhaps 'cos you end up exploting a balancing inconsistency_ I use it sometimes only, mainly when the things get too ugly when I'm piloting my Scout. But most of the times I don't go EMP and use other items for the sake of the fair-play. I'm not judging you though..

[AsianJoyKiller]

The_Silencer, on December 24 2012 - 07:27 AM, said:

AsianJoyKiller, on December 23 2012 - 10:54 AM, said:

The_Silencer, on December 23 2012 - 10:18 AM, said:

Although I got one question for you AJK (and to PlagueDoctor as well...): Do you use EMPs whilst you're piloting a CupCake mech_ Just curious on this.

I use them on damn near everything. Why wouldn't I when they give such a large advantage_

Perhaps 'cos you end up exploting a balancing inconsistency_ I use it sometimes only, mainly when the things get too ugly when I'm piloting my Scout. But most of the times I don't go EMP and use other items for the sake of the fair-play. I'm not judging you though..

Fair play is for competitive matches.
In pub play, I'll take whatever advantage I can get legitimately.

[The_Silencer]

So is your point of view on that which I won't share. Although, now that we're on this again, going EMPs as you're piloting that CupCake down there in the BF isn't my ideal style..

Nevertheless, I'm not nor I wasn't judging you.

[RespawningJesus]

EMPs are bad since they ruin the pacing of the game.  Seven seconds of you not able to fire is just bad, since seven seconds is a long time in a fast paced game.  Sure, you can always run away for that time, but that is no fun.

It is kinda like how the Armor Lock was in Halo Reach.  It prevented you from getting the kill, and the only counter for it would be time.  

In the hands of an unskilled player, EMP becomes an annoyance.  In the hands of a skilled player, EMP can be beyond devastating.

[Animal_Man]

Kitsunin, on December 24 2012 - 03:49 AM, said:

cognos, on December 24 2012 - 03:37 AM, said:

In the prev releases the emp was about a 3sec shutdown - now its a 8 sec shutdown and usually I am able to evade after beeing hit. It's not "by far" the best item. The machine gun tower IMHO by far more powerful than that stupid noop emp. You cant kill a class a by emping it - class b and c are easier but still i am able to flee with my bruiser - with my inf its abolutely no problem to evade the kill move of the EMPer. Usually I kill them after i reactive because the EMPers get to hasty.
Now you have the opportunity to counter the EMP - so EMP is worthless in some situations. But still i am using exstinguisher because i am able to evade.

What do you want_ Items that are useless_ Sometimes Balance is overrated - the players pick and balance based on their abbility

The balance on EMPs isn't bad, per se. The problem is that they make the game less fun. They aren't fun to use and they CERTAINLY aren't fun to deal with.

That's YOUR opinion. I'm having fun using EMPs and getting owned by EMPs. I have no problem with it at all. If you don't like it, quit playing the game.