74 replies to this topic

[AsianJoyKiller]

[HWK]Deuy, on January 22 2013 - 06:18 PM, said:

Care to elaborate what you don't like about the idea_  What I was picturing is basically a secondary weapon that has the properties of an extremely close range "melee" instrument, like a spike or pneumatic hammer.  It wouldn't be terribly different from just having a flak cannon that's more effective at a much shorter range but basically has no damage potential at any other distance.  Seems like a reasonable trade-off to me, and it's a far cry from laser swords or roundhouse kicks (also in development > ).

You talk about getting in close range as if it's hard, but consider your objective modes, which are much, much more likely to become the competitive game mode. You are forced into close quarters combat whether you like it or not. At that point, it's a non-issue to get in point blank (especially in pub games).
And what weight class would it appear on_ Stick it on an A-Class, and it's waaay to easy to get in close, stick it on C-class and it'll be practically useless. Stick it on B, and then people complain about only one weight class having a melee weapon.
And how much more powerful than a flak to compensate for the point-blank requirement_

What bothers me most, is the fact that you guys (ADH) think you should be balancing for casual and pub play first, and then you'll work on competitive balance.
I'm sorry, but it just does not work like that.
That is how balance gets broken.

You know what things were balanced for casuals_ Seekers, Hellfires, REV-GL, EMPs, Siege mode.
Look at how well those items and modes are working out.
Siege was thoroughly broken, having a infinite-stalemate exploit that made it technically impossible to win if the losing team relied on that strat. It's change to an Alpha ruleset did nothing to fix that and broke it even further.
Seekers and Hellfires have such a low skill-ceiling they become useless even in high-level pub play. And if you buff them while trying to retain the same ease-of-use, then you end up breaking them like the original implementation of the Seekers.
The REV-GL is a ridiculous weapon that requires a minimum of aiming and skill to use effectively because it just relies on spamming.
EMPs have been broken since alpha, and even when they were 4.5 seconds, they were still considered to be overpowered by the competitive community and were banned from Zeshi's tournament even before they received the idiotic 7 second buff. Even with the nerf they've received, I know (not think, know) that they're still broken and there's absolutely no way that the competitive community will accept them.
That is your history in balancing stuff for casual players.
That's really gone well, hasn't it_

What you should be doing it balancing it for competitive level play, and then figuring out how to make that balance fun for casual players too. Not the other way around, because that's how balance gets broken, and you get bright ideas like a 7 second EMPs.



You guys have stated on multiple occasions that you want Hawken to be viable for eSports.
I believe that you guys believe in doing that and want to do it.
What I don't believe is that you actually know what competitive balance looks like and how to achieve it.

[erathic]

edit :

AsianJoyKiller, on January 23 2013 - 07:23 AM, said:

consider your objective modes, which are much, much more likely to become the competitive game mode. You are forced into close quarters combat whether you like it or not. At that point, it's a non-issue to get in point blank (especially in pub games).

Yep this should be obviously considered when balancing such(and any) weapons. But "if" -done well- (maybe by following your advises) i'm sure it could work in both competitive/casual games. If not maybe have different balancing on dedicated eSports servers to suit better pro-gamers.

Back on the topic,

Quote

Contests where player designs get elected and promoted by the community might be a good way to incorporate that though.

That will be so amazing too ! Power to the creatives !

Edited by erathic, January 23 2013 - 07:46 AM.

[Daronicus]

AsianJoyKiller, on January 23 2013 - 07:23 AM, said:

<snip>

Honestly, I'm sort of ok with certain items/weapons being considered unsuitable for competitive play and banned from tournaments.  I played in a couple of Left 4 Dead 2 tournaments, and CEVO basically stripped everything out of the game to make it competitive.  It made it more balanced, which was nice for a tournament, but I definitely didn't want to play on CEVO servers all the time.  There's a lot of... fun, I guess, that is added by mechanics that may never be suitable for competitive play.  It was never great when your team's tank spawned somewhere worse than the other team's, but... I guess it made it more of a game than a competition, if that makes any sense_  As in, a lot of the fun came from playing "with" the other team rather than just against them (which isn't to say that strict, intense competition isn't also a blast).  I think there's room for both of those things in every multiplayer video game, and they don't necessarily have to occupy the same space at the same time.  Maybe the server browser can help facilitate this, with "competitive" servers that have different rulesets.  Or maybe melee mechs won't be available for objective-based modes.  That sort of thing.

Beyond that, there's a little bit of an attitude on the forums, especially among the upper strata of players, that some things are inherently impossible to balance.  It may be true, but I say let them try it before crying imba.  It's beta; it's the time to try new things.  Maybe they don't work and need to be ripped back out of the game, but I see no problem with the attempt being made.  I don't like the EMP in it's current iteration (and am skeptical I'll like it post-patch), but I view its current problems as tied to them trying something new (countermeasures, which I also dislike right now; I think they need a rework. Although--tangent here--maybe they just need to have a countermeasure for each item.  That way each player can choose whatever item they have the most problem with and take a counter for that. Of course, this requires for all items to be relatively balanced. And it can't be something that completely negates the effects. And I feel like there needs to be some sort of countermeasure "default" of sorts that doesn't cost any credits, so there isn't as much that pay-to-win vibe, which sort of defeats the purpose of countermeasures in the first place. And then there's the concern that countermeasures themselves will affect the balance of items. Yeah, maybe that won't work.) and am willing to see how it all pans out.

All that said, I don't really want melee weapons in Hawken.  It has nothing to do with balance, game logic, or world logic, though.  I just think it kind of ruins the aesthetics of the game.  I really, really love the designs for all the mechs (save maybe FRED, though he's kind of an exception) and I think adding melee weapons messes with that.  It just feels... off.  One of the reasons I like more western mech designs over their Japanese counterparts is because of the whole walking tank look and feel, and while I adore the speedier, more mobile take on this that Hawken offers, melee weapons still feel... wrong, I guess.  It may not be a good reason, but it's my reason, right_  Or something_

Also, apologies if anything I said seems overly critical.  I really don't mean it as such.  Merely offering my perspective sort of thing.

Edited by Daronicus, January 23 2013 - 09:18 AM.

[burns1124]

AsianJoyKiller, on January 23 2013 - 07:23 AM, said:

What you should be doing it balancing it for competitive level play, and then figuring out how to make that balance fun for casual players too. Not the other way around, because that's how balance gets broken, and you get bright ideas like a 7 second EMPs.

This is the way any major eSport has gone about balancing, since forever.  It is the only way to make things work correctly, and anyone that attempts to debate otherwise, needs to have their head examined.  AJK might not be your favorite forum poster, but the guy knows wtf he is talking about in this regard.  

There is a reason why only games that are balanced for the highest skill levels are picked up for major events and leagues.  That is the same reason those games become popular in the first place, and persist well beyond their intended lifespan (read:Counterstrike).

[erathic]

Daronicus, on January 23 2013 - 08:58 AM, said:

I don't really want melee weapons in Hawken. it kind of ruins the aesthetics of the game. and I think adding melee weapons messes with that.  It just feels... off.  One of the reasons I like more western mech designs over their Japanese counterparts is because of the whole walking tank look and feel, and while I adore the speedier, more mobile take on this that Hawken offers, melee weapons still feel... wrong, I guess.  It may not be a good reason, but it's my reason, right_  Or something_

Yes,
if ever added to the game their designs (as well as their balance) must be studied to fit and keep the walking tank strong identity Hawken mechs have. By keeping them subles, visually realistics (well, in the Hawken way at least),etc..

Edited by erathic, January 23 2013 - 09:33 AM.

[x1aa]

Running around with a pneumatic drill, flak and a grappling hook in speeded up version of Hawken...
Now that would be ultimate kickass!

[DeVact]

I think what scares away the most players from melee is that in pretty much every other game it's a one-hit-kill weapon/feature. I agree that this would break the game if it were implemented like that. I do however believe that's not what the Devs have planned/ are going for.
I could imagine the long-ago-announced repair torch being used on enemy mechs to melt away HP. A UT-style impact hammer would be awesome too (charging it like the HEAT for increased damage would be nice)

[Beemann]

superbank, on January 22 2013 - 10:03 PM, said:

So what if it was a weapon that does more damage the longer it's in use_ Like a buzzsaw weapon. You start it up and at first doesn't do too much damage but the longer it spins the faster it goes dealing more DPS. Not saying I approve but this should be the opposite of first strike damage.

It would be "less bad" but would still ultimately run into the positioning problem

erathic, on January 23 2013 - 07:26 AM, said:

Yep this should be obviously considered when balancing such(and any) weapons. But "if" -done well- (maybe by following your advises) i'm sure it could work in both competitive/casual games. If not maybe have different balancing on dedicated eSports servers to suit better pro-gamers.

Can you name a game in which a melee centric playstyle was actually competitively viable_
Cuz I can't
And that includes games where forward and backward speed are equal, which is much better for melee than Hawken's system is

[Decoy101x]

Melee is bad omfg noobs no one should want melee only scrubs and nubs and baddies want it who can't aim lolololol stupid ppl who are stupid want that broken and bad mechanic in dis game. Blargomgwtfbbqsauce

Edited by Decoy101x, January 23 2013 - 10:47 AM.

[Juodvarnis]

Melee is great when done correctly. It SHOULD not have some idiotic leaping mechanic or lunging lock-on nonsense from Call of Duty and every other god damn modern military shooter! If they add something like this, it should be something like a gun but with an extremely limited range. Like a pneumatic hammer or some extending blade.

[Beemann]

Juodvarnis, on January 23 2013 - 10:48 AM, said:

Melee is great when done correctly. It SHOULD not have some idiotic leaping mechanic or lunging lock-on nonsense from Call of Duty and every other god damn modern military shooter! If they add something like this, it should be something like a gun but with an extremely limited range. Like a pneumatic hammer or some extending blade.

Where is it done correctly_

[Conquistador]

For balancing issues:

All melee weapons should be restricted to a single new game type called "JOUST". Melee weapons should not be included in the current list of standard game types.

Melee weapons should never be "thrown in" as an afterthought of design. You need to build your initial game around melee support (e.g. tf2) for balance or exclude it altogether. I'd rather the team first balance guns before they try to balance in swords or lances, as their current weapons balance leaves much to be desired.

[Sylhiri]

Beemann, on January 23 2013 - 10:52 AM, said:

Where is it done correctly_

Only allow it when your overheated_ I dunno, lol.

[TwiceDead]

Beemann, on January 23 2013 - 10:32 AM, said:

Can you name a game in which a melee centric playstyle was actually competitively viable_
Cuz I can't
And that includes games where forward and backward speed are equal, which is much better for melee than Hawken's system is

So because melee is not going to work competitively is the reason it should be kept out of the game_
In other words anything that is made without the thought of competition in it shouldn't be made_
Which again means that as long as Melee is not a viable option in competitive play, it shouldn't be implemented_

Many games have melee implemented because it's fun. Not because it's competitive.
Melee doesn't need to be "viable" in competitive play... And no it would not be pointless to add melee just because it isn't, know why_
Some people ENJOY melee. Doesn't need to be viable, hell a knife in Counter Strike was not much viable unless you were extremely skilled and the opponents a bunch of doofuses... It was still there. Battelfield Franchise, since 1942 to Battlefield 3, knife is still there. You can attempt to knife someone in the face, but you will pay for it. Backstab_ Opponents fault for not being aware of his own surroundings. In most games, melee is not a VIABLE option. Yet some people enjoy doing just that for the credit of having done so.

Keywords: ENJOYABLE, FUN, PERSONAL PREFERENCE, All that stuff.

You can't cater to only one kind of people, it will put people off. But you can't cater to everyone either. Melee however is a feature that should have been in, since very few games to this date have melee excluded, hence melee comes kind of expected.

Now you might not enjoy melee, but some do. You don't have to use melee just because it's there, nobody forces you to, it just gives your opponents/friends something else to play with. If someone is going to play competitively, nobody is stupid to go with something that is not viable. If melee is viable, then it is viable... But I doubt it ever will be viable in competitive play no matter how they implement it, unless it's a one shot fuzzy bunny fuzzy bunny type ability.

Juodvarnis, on January 23 2013 - 10:48 AM, said:

Melee is great when done correctly. It SHOULD not have some idiotic leaping mechanic or lunging lock-on nonsense from Call of Duty and every other god damn modern military shooter! If they add something like this, it should be something like a gun but with an extremely limited range. Like a pneumatic hammer or some extending blade.

Pretty much this.

Edited by TwiceDead, January 23 2013 - 11:04 AM.

[LunaticCalm]

I think some melee weapons could fit into hawken's aesthetic, like a pneumatic punching spike or ram, buzz saw, or drill.

Certainly no swords or knives though.

[TwiceDead]

AsianJoyKiller, on January 23 2013 - 07:23 AM, said:

[HWK]Deuy, on January 22 2013 - 06:18 PM, said:

Care to elaborate what you don't like about the idea_  What I was picturing is basically a secondary weapon that has the properties of an extremely close range "melee" instrument, like a spike or pneumatic hammer.  It wouldn't be terribly different from just having a flak cannon that's more effective at a much shorter range but basically has no damage potential at any other distance.  Seems like a reasonable trade-off to me, and it's a far cry from laser swords or roundhouse kicks (also in development > ).

You talk about getting in close range as if it's hard, but consider your objective modes, which are much, much more likely to become the competitive game mode. You are forced into close quarters combat whether you like it or not. At that point, it's a non-issue to get in point blank (especially in pub games).

Best remove Flak Cannon then as it's the exact same thing. You are forced into CQC, Flak becomes dominant. No point using AR on point blank when you have a Flak available. Unless you know somebody is not going to let you come close because they have long range ordinance...

[erathic]

Beemann, on January 23 2013 - 10:52 AM, said:

Where is it done correctly_

Dota 2 (i don't play it but one of my co-worker does) he said that this hook guy is the most faved/played character at this time,
it may sound innapropriate but Dota 2 is the most played F2P at this time, so, yeah some people are finding melee "viable", or at least fun to play.

[Beemann]

TwiceDead, on January 23 2013 - 10:56 AM, said:

Stuff.

I prefer games in which there's no melee
Why are my preferences not being catered to_
What if I prefer completely accurate auto-targetting missiles_ What if I prefer 1hk hitscan sniper rifles_ Should we attempt to cater to those preferences as well_
"I like it" is not a valid reason for adding something to the game. It has to fit both aesthetically and mechanically, and the pro-melee side has yet to give an adequate example of proper implementation for either Hawken or another game. Having an inadequate weapon that nobody uses doeasn't cut it

TwiceDead, on January 23 2013 - 11:07 AM, said:

Best remove Flak Cannon then as it's the exact same thing. You are forced into CQC, Flak becomes dominant. No point using AR on point blank when you have a Flak available. Unless you know somebody is not going to let you come close because they have long range ordinance...

Flak isn't dependent on point blank, and thus doesn't have the same necessitated advantages as melee. As well, you have a TOW to keep in mind when using the flak (do you like massive splash damage to the face_). Can you promise the same range considerations when using the melee SECONDARY_
Additionally, I WOULD actually prefer it if the Flak (not the mini) was taken off of the scout and was replaced with a new, appropriate gun for the class. This whole nonsense about balancing weapons around A's (because they're certainly not being balanced elsewhere) is getting silly

erathic, on January 23 2013 - 11:09 AM, said:

Dota 2 (i don't play it but one of my co-worker does) he said that this hook guy is the most faved/played character at this time,
it may sound innapropriate but Dota 2 is the most played F2P at this time, so, yeah some people are finding melee "viable", or at least fun to play.

Wrong genre, try again_
It's not applicabe for the same reason that adventure game puzzles and APM aren't applicable here
WoW had millions of subscribers, but that doesn't mean FPS' should take on several hotbars of skills and introduce 40 man raids

Edited by Beemann, January 23 2013 - 11:14 AM.

[Juodvarnis]

I feel that something like a melee weapon could exist, in a way not too different from the flak cannon, just make it more heavy hitting (but not too much, because then people will just use it over flak), slower "RoF" and make it so it has pretty much hugging distance.

Of course i'm not the sharpest tool in the shed and pretty much everything i say (type in this case) can be complete and utter gibberish nonsense and should be ignored.

Edited by Juodvarnis, January 23 2013 - 11:21 AM.

[Guiotine]

Beemann, on January 23 2013 - 11:12 AM, said:

WoW had millions of subscribers, but that doesn't mean FPS' should take on several hotbars of skills and introduce 40 man raids

Actually, I think you are on to something here...