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New PC Gamer article: Hawken co-founder talks eSports, missing server browsers, clan support and big Beta fixes

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#61 TwiceDead

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Posted January 23 2013 - 11:27 AM

View PostBeemann, on January 23 2013 - 11:12 AM, said:

I prefer games in which there's no melee
Why are my preferences not being catered to_
What if I prefer completely accurate auto-targetting missiles_ What if I prefer 1hk hitscan sniper rifles_ Should we attempt to cater to those preferences as well_
"I like it" is not a valid reason for adding something to the game. It has to fit both aesthetically and mechanically, and the pro-melee side has yet to give an adequate example of proper implementation for either Hawken or another game. Having an inadequate weapon that nobody uses doeasn't cut it

View PostTwiceDead, on January 23 2013 - 10:56 AM, said:

You can't cater to only one kind of people, it will put people off. But you can't cater to everyone either.
Read.
"I like it" doesn't cut it. But neither does "I don't like it."
The devs said they had a way to implement melee that would make sense to the Hawken universe. The universe THEY created.

You are talking as if you need to see proof that this would work as if you are asking for some psychic answer, if that's what you're looking for I suggest you go get your fortune told at the carnival or your closest amusement park. I don't think they need to prove anything to you, or show you anything to make you acknowledge that melee would get implemented. If the devs have a plan, they have a plan, and are not entitled to lay their cards on the table for everyone to see.

Your preference is already catered to afterall. You got your mechs, you got your guns, you get more coming, you got your competition, and that's why you're here. Or am I mistaken_

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What if I prefer completely accurate auto-targetting missiles_ What if I prefer 1hk hitscan sniper rifles_ Should we attempt to cater to those preferences as well_

I'd love all those things as well, but that wouldn't happen now would it_ They devs are not drones that follow every word of the community. I am certain that if the entire community screamed 1hit sniper rifles, it would NEVER happen. Why_ They're not DUMB.

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Flak isn't dependent on point blank, and thus doesn't have the same necessitated advantages as melee. As well, you have a TOW to keep in mind when using the flak (do you like massive splash damage to the face_). Can you promise the same range considerations when using the melee SECONDARY_
Oh so not being able to use your secondary that deals a majority of your damage forcing you to be at point blank is an advantage now_ What's going to be his primary_ AR_ Flak Cannon_ Flak cannon would make sense I guess... I better start doing that then! How much damage will I take before I get there unless I manage to sneak up on someone_ Smart people will counter this by throwing out radars anyhow so nobody can really sneak up on you. Actually smart people will occasionally look around so sneaking up on someone might be a tad bit difficult. You make it sound as if melee is EASY. Go play counterstrike against some lethal bastards using only your knife, unless your opponents are scrubs I doubt you'll be able to net one.
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#62 AsianJoyKiller

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Posted January 23 2013 - 11:30 AM

Another thought...
Why should Adhesive be spending time creating and implementing a new weapon that has a extremely high chance of not coming into the game balanced, when they have at least a half dozen weapons that currently work in a less than desirable manner (as judged by the majority of the communities opinion)_

In other words, why add more fuzzy bunny to fix when the stuff you already have doesn't even work right_

Edited by AsianJoyKiller, January 23 2013 - 11:30 AM.

[HWK]HUGHES, on July 03 2013 - 11:07 PM, said:

AJK is right

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#63 Juodvarnis

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Posted January 23 2013 - 11:31 AM

View PostAsianJoyKiller, on January 23 2013 - 11:30 AM, said:

snip.
Agreed.
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#64 TwiceDead

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Posted January 23 2013 - 11:39 AM

View PostAsianJoyKiller, on January 23 2013 - 11:30 AM, said:

-snip-
Fair point.
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#65 Kai_Kitamura

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Posted January 23 2013 - 11:39 AM

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I prefer games in which there's no melee
What's the distinction between melee and flakscout ramming your backside_


Quote

In other words, why add more fuzzy bunny to fix when the stuff you already have doesn't even work right_
You shouldn't devote too much time to balance a feature incomplete product because it's... well, incomplete and you'll be forcing yourself to balance everything again and again every time something gets added. Only when your desired feature set is all in should you start major balancing work.

PGI balances items on a per-issue (per-community whining) basis while half the important things are still out and look how well it worked out for them (hint: it didn't).

And that all is ignoring the fact that weapons ARE tweaked in small steps (see changelog) so you're not only wrong on a conceptual level, but on a factual level as well. Unless you're still going on about the flak spread in which, well, tough fuzzy bunny, I don't sympathize with that complaint and my thought on the whole random vs even debate is "eh... whatever."

Edited by Kai_Kitamura, January 23 2013 - 11:42 AM.

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#66 x1aa

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Posted January 23 2013 - 11:45 AM

Guess the problem is like following
-Some people like the game as it is and just want balance added to finally start playing this tasty thing competitively
-Others like more stuff included and don't care as much about balancing; the more casual players

Upcoming patch(es) will show which direction the devs are heading
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#67 Beemann

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Posted January 23 2013 - 11:46 AM

View PostTwiceDead, on January 23 2013 - 11:27 AM, said:

Read.
"I like it" doesn't cut it. But neither does "I don't like it."
The devs said they had a way to implement melee that would make sense to the Hawken universe. The universe THEY created.
Then it's probably good that I haven't actually used personal preferences as a reason against it, but rather an example of why your argument is flawed

View PostTwiceDead, on January 23 2013 - 11:27 AM, said:

You are talking as if you need to see proof that this would work as if you are asking for some psychic answer, if that's what you're looking for I suggest you go get your fortune told at the carnival or your closest amusement park. I don't think they need to prove anything to you, or show you anything to make you acknowledge that melee would get implemented. If the devs have a plan, they have a plan, and are not entitled to lay their cards on the table for everyone to see.
No, I'm asking for an adequate idea as to how this wouldn't be completely broken one way or the other. Even an example IN ANOTHER GAME was accepted and still the pro-melee crowd has failed to deliver outside of one wrong-genre example

View PostTwiceDead, on January 23 2013 - 11:27 AM, said:

Your preference is already catered to afterall. You got your mechs, you got your guns, you get more coming, you got your competition, and that's why you're here. Or am I mistaken_
Not if they keep the imbalanced fuzzy bunny and heap MORE of it on the game
Not if they continue to cater to people who make balance suggestions based on personal preference rather than sound logic and a consideration for the game's mechanics and pacing

View PostTwiceDead, on January 23 2013 - 11:27 AM, said:

I'd love all those things as well, but that wouldn't happen now would it_ They devs are not drones that follow every word of the community. I am certain that if the entire community screamed 1hit sniper rifles, it would NEVER happen. Why_ They're not DUMB.
...I was joking about liking those things
You know, to make a point

View PostTwiceDead, on January 23 2013 - 11:27 AM, said:

Oh so not being able to use your secondary that deals a majority of your damage forcing you to be at point blank is an advantage now_ What's going to be his primary_ AR_ Flak Cannon_ Flak cannon would make sense I guess... I better start doing that then! How much damage will I take before I get there unless I manage to sneak up on someone_ Smart people will counter this by throwing out radars anyhow so nobody can really sneak up on you. Actually smart people will occasionally look around so sneaking up on someone might be a tad bit difficult. You make it sound as if melee is EASY. Go play counterstrike against some lethal bastards using only your knife, unless your opponents are scrubs I doubt you'll be able to net one.
A weapon that forces you to make position-based tradeoffs IS a good thing, yes
With the Flak and Melee combo, you'd basically rip people to shreds in any objective based gamemode, because they're forced to do your work for you (move into CQC)
This becomes even worse if the class in question is an A or a C, because they already HAVE CQC classes

@Kai
The flak user isn't balanced for point blank, and is scewed over if they go there (no explosives)
Currently getting to melee range (with no applicable melee weapons of course) is fairly risk reward as both parties will hit all of their shots, and will receive splash from any subsequent explosives, With melee, the defending party takes their own splash, but now the attacker gets free primary AND secondary hits while taking no damage from their own weapons

Edited by Beemann, January 23 2013 - 11:48 AM.

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#68 erathic

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Posted January 23 2013 - 11:51 AM

View Postx1aa, on January 23 2013 - 11:45 AM, said:

Guess the problem is like following
-Some people like the game as it is and just want balance added to finally start playing this tasty thing competitively
-Others like more stuff included and don't care as much about balancing; the more casual players

Upcoming patch(es) will show which direction the devs are heading

+1
There is also inbetween, wich want the "base"-game to run smooth and -then- want to see more stuffs.

Edited by erathic, January 23 2013 - 11:51 AM.

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#69 x1aa

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Posted January 23 2013 - 11:56 AM

View Posterathic, on January 23 2013 - 11:51 AM, said:

View Postx1aa, on January 23 2013 - 11:45 AM, said:

Guess the problem is like following
-Some people like the game as it is and just want balance added to finally start playing this tasty thing competitively
-Others like more stuff included and don't care as much about balancing; the more casual players

Upcoming patch(es) will show which direction the devs are heading

+1
There is also inbetween, wich want the "base"-game to run smooth and -then- want to see more stuffs.

As soon as stuff is added, the old stuff has to be balanced again. it's a vicious circle.
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#70 Beemann

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Posted January 23 2013 - 12:01 PM

View Postx1aa, on January 23 2013 - 11:56 AM, said:

View Posterathic, on January 23 2013 - 11:51 AM, said:

View Postx1aa, on January 23 2013 - 11:45 AM, said:

Guess the problem is like following
-Some people like the game as it is and just want balance added to finally start playing this tasty thing competitively
-Others like more stuff included and don't care as much about balancing; the more casual players

Upcoming patch(es) will show which direction the devs are heading

+1
There is also inbetween, wich want the "base"-game to run smooth and -then- want to see more stuffs.

As soon as stuff is added, the old stuff has to be balanced again. it's a vicious circle.
...If you have to balance everything around a new weapon (or set of weapons), isn't that a sign that you done goofed on balancing the new weapon(s)_
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#71 x1aa

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Posted January 23 2013 - 12:12 PM

View PostBeemann, on January 23 2013 - 12:01 PM, said:

...If you have to balance everything around a new weapon (or set of weapons), isn't that a sign that you done goofed on balancing the new weapon(s)_

Good point.
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#72 DieselCat

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Posted January 23 2013 - 12:46 PM

View PostAsianJoyKiller, on January 23 2013 - 11:30 AM, said:

Another thought...
Why should Adhesive be spending time creating and implementing a new weapon that has a extremely high chance of not coming into the game balanced, when they have at least a half dozen weapons that currently work in a less than desirable manner (as judged by the majority of the communities opinion)_

In other words, why add more fuzzy bunny to fix when the stuff you already have doesn't even work right_

^^^This makes way to much sense...... ;)

I'm against any form of melee here, I don't think it fits well for the type of game that Hawken is.
If someone has the itch for melee,  you can always grab a copy of something like Soulcalibur to get your fix....just my opinion.

Please for now just work on getting the current list of weapons balanced and working as correctly as possible first, along with other known issues, before trying to add something of this nature that really isn't (and imo shouldn't be) a priority for the game.

*+.
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#73 The_Silencer

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Posted January 24 2013 - 07:16 AM

Once more, QC melee oriented approaches are still promising possibilities which may add value to the game, IMHO. That, coherently implemented and implying a minor impact to the current gameplay is something which still looks pretty promising to me.

That's all a widely open discussion though...

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#74 ReachH

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Posted January 24 2013 - 07:24 AM

View PostDecoy101x, on January 23 2013 - 06:58 AM, said:

Also i don't care if you like my argument or not. So eat me.
To be fair Decoy, you look like you would be delicious grilled with secret herbs and spices, drizzled with truffle oil and served with a dollop of butter.

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And whether or not Melee would be a good addition to this game (which it won't), I'm gonna go with AJK's line of reasoning that there are much more urgent things to address before we get all giddy adding shiny things.

Edited by ReachH, January 24 2013 - 07:28 AM.

View Post[HWK]HUGHES, on October 23 2013 - 06:01 PM, said:

Development happens.


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#75 cpl_bradders

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Posted January 24 2013 - 08:07 AM

I personally don't want them, but I won't cause a fuss if a patch shows up one day with melee attacks included - seems fair that they would ram/shove each other if they somehow found each other that close.

A little stomping action from the comic:

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You are immediately liable for any and all damage incurred to this mech.






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