127 replies to this topic

[Kerc_Kersa]

Meh. It depends, this is the future and we are shooting large guns with big bullets.. Could be possible ^^

Besides, maybe it would be dependent on what mech you shot (example: You shoot through 3 A class mechs vs 1 C class mech, due to the size of each).

Just my thoughts

[AsianJoyKiller]

HawkEyE_, on February 21 2013 - 02:59 PM, said:

AsianJoyKiller, on February 21 2013 - 02:24 PM, said:

HawkEyE_, on February 21 2013 - 01:59 PM, said:

That is still 4 shots. Most people argue the point saying that the SS can kill them with 1 shot. Almost any mech can 1 hit kill an A class with a det combo in 3 seconds. Some could even do it to a class B.

Point is, the SS is balanced and this topic is to prove that. The poll is just for the people who want something done to "balance" it.

As far as I've seen on the forum, people spend half the time referring to 1 salvo as 1-shotting. It's not particularly clear.
And for the record, Slug/Sabot/Det/Power Shot doesn't take 3 seconds. That's instadeath. Even without the Det, you can take down an A in 2 seconds.

True, that is an instadeath, but that is with that item, not the SS. Also w/o the Det, you can't kill a class A mech in 2 seconds. Unless I am mistaken in how many slug rounds you can fire in 2 seconds, the max you could do is ~483. That is if you fired 1 Sabot and 2 slugs w/ ability.

Btw, prior to the update that changed the SS ability tp Power Shot, you could technically do 457.9 damage in 1 second w/ H.E. Charge and old ability. That isn't much more of a step up with the new ability and Det, since you were so close to 1 salvo killing a class A mech in the first place...

That's the thing. SS doesn't exist in a vacuum where you can't use items. When thinking about game balance, you have to account for everything.
Everything includes items and the fact that people often run around with less than full health.

[Kerc_Kersa]

AsianJoyKiller, on February 21 2013 - 04:08 PM, said:

HawkEyE_, on February 21 2013 - 02:59 PM, said:

AsianJoyKiller, on February 21 2013 - 02:24 PM, said:

HawkEyE_, on February 21 2013 - 01:59 PM, said:

That is still 4 shots. Most people argue the point saying that the SS can kill them with 1 shot. Almost any mech can 1 hit kill an A class with a det combo in 3 seconds. Some could even do it to a class B.

Point is, the SS is balanced and this topic is to prove that. The poll is just for the people who want something done to "balance" it.

As far as I've seen on the forum, people spend half the time referring to 1 salvo as 1-shotting. It's not particularly clear.
And for the record, Slug/Sabot/Det/Power Shot doesn't take 3 seconds. That's instadeath. Even without the Det, you can take down an A in 2 seconds.

True, that is an instadeath, but that is with that item, not the SS. Also w/o the Det, you can't kill a class A mech in 2 seconds. Unless I am mistaken in how many slug rounds you can fire in 2 seconds, the max you could do is ~483. That is if you fired 1 Sabot and 2 slugs w/ ability.

Btw, prior to the update that changed the SS ability tp Power Shot, you could technically do 457.9 damage in 1 second w/ H.E. Charge and old ability. That isn't much more of a step up with the new ability and Det, since you were so close to 1 salvo killing a class A mech in the first place...

That's the thing. SS doesn't exist in a vacuum where you can't use items. When thinking about game balance, you have to account for everything.
Everything includes items and the fact that people often run around with less than full health.

I know, I am not denying what you are saying here, I am just pointing out to everyone who thinks the SS or any mech for that matter is OP when they are not. It is true you can do kills in less than a second with a well fired Det/Sabot/Slug/Power Shot combo, but that would take most players a lot of skill to do.Not saying that it can't be done, just it would be hard for most players to do.

I am not sure what could be done to balance out that combo, but because there wasn't a problem before the item was added, perhaps it would be best to tweak the Det and not the SS, seeing how the poll shows that most players like the SS as it is now.

And I am not sure what point you are trying to make with the fact that people run around with less than full health, because wouldn't any mech be able to kill a damaged mech for the most part_

Edited by HawkEyE_, February 21 2013 - 07:33 PM.

[AsianJoyKiller]

HawkEyE_, on February 21 2013 - 07:32 PM, said:

I know, I am not denying what you are saying here, I am just pointing out to everyone who thinks the SS or any mech for that matter is OP when they are not. It is true you can do kills in less than a second with a well fired Det/Sabot/Slug/Power Shot combo, but that would take most players a lot of skill to do.Not saying that it can't be done, just it would be hard for most players to do.

You don't balance for the average player because those mechanics can be easily abused by good players, and become completely broken in the hands of great players. There needs to be a tradeoff between skill and power, and at the moment, you can get a lot of power out of the SS for not a lot of skill.

Unless your telling me that a moderate knowledge of positioning, timing and the ability to place your crosshairs over a target requires an excessive amount of skill_

Quote

I am not sure what could be done to balance out that combo, but because there wasn't a problem before the item was added, perhaps it would be best to tweak the Det and not the SS, seeing how the poll shows that most players like the SS as it is now.

A forum poll is hardly representative of what's true, easily messed with and popular choice isn't always what's good for the game. And the real problem isn't the det (though that does need to be tweaked), it's the massive boost that the Power Shot gives.

Quote

And I am not sure what point you are trying to make with the fact that people run around with less than full health, because wouldn't any mech be able to kill a damaged mech for the most part_

Except if your missing just a tiny fraction of your health, because you got winged by a stray bullet, or popped out of repair a fraction of a second early, an SS can kill you in 1 or 2 salvos, in the space of 2 seconds.
What other mech can do that_
What other mech can force A and B Classes to retreat for repairs in 1 salvo_
What other class can do that without needing to lead_
What other class can do that across the map_
What other class can do that without you having any time to react_

[Kerc_Kersa]

AsianJoyKiller, on February 21 2013 - 08:06 PM, said:

HawkEyE_, on February 21 2013 - 07:32 PM, said:

I know, I am not denying what you are saying here, I am just pointing out to everyone who thinks the SS or any mech for that matter is OP when they are not. It is true you can do kills in less than a second with a well fired Det/Sabot/Slug/Power Shot combo, but that would take most players a lot of skill to do.Not saying that it can't be done, just it would be hard for most players to do.

You don't balance for the average player because those mechanics can be easily abused by good players, and become completely broken in the hands of great players. There needs to be a tradeoff between skill and power, and at the moment, you can get a lot of power out of the SS for not a lot of skill.

Unless your telling me that a moderate knowledge of positioning, timing and the ability to place your crosshairs over a target requires an excessive amount of skill_

Quote

I am not sure what could be done to balance out that combo, but because there wasn't a problem before the item was added, perhaps it would be best to tweak the Det and not the SS, seeing how the poll shows that most players like the SS as it is now.

A forum poll is hardly representative of what's true, easily messed with and popular choice isn't always what's good for the game. And the real problem isn't the det (though that does need to be tweaked), it's the massive boost that the Power Shot gives.

Quote

And I am not sure what point you are trying to make with the fact that people run around with less than full health, because wouldn't any mech be able to kill a damaged mech for the most part_

Except if your missing just a tiny fraction of your health, because you got winged by a stray bullet, or popped out of repair a fraction of a second early, an SS can kill you in 1 or 2 salvos, in the space of 2 seconds.
What other mech can do that_
What other mech can force A and B Classes to retreat for repairs in 1 salvo_
What other class can do that without needing to lead_
What other class can do that across the map_
What other class can do that without you having any time to react_

Yes, I know the SS's weapons do not require a lot of skill to use (unless your PC lags like no tomorrow) just point and shoot. The only skill that I was referring to, is the Det. The Det moves fairly slow and your target should have some time to react (unless that was fired from close range) it would take some decent skill at the very least to make it hit your target (seeing how they can move at any time).

True, a poll will not necessarily show what is true, but for the most part, no one has posted saying that there is anything wrong with it. I do agree that the current ability could be tweaked (I have said this a few times and it is in the OP) and hopefully, the devs will see something of value in here to help fix some things.

And yes, once again you are right with the fact that the SS is the only mech that can do enough damage in just 2 seconds to kill a slightly damaged mech (the SS could NOT do this w/o the current ability though). Also the data that I used for this topic came mostly from your tests (and others) I believe, so who knows better about the damage than you_

[Nept]

HawkEyE_, on February 21 2013 - 08:35 PM, said:

AsianJoyKiller, on February 21 2013 - 08:06 PM, said:

There needs to be a tradeoff between skill and power, and at the moment, you can get a lot of power out of the SS for not a lot of skill.

Unless your telling me that a moderate knowledge of positioning, timing and the ability to place your crosshairs over a target requires an excessive amount of skill_

Yes, I know the SS's weapons do not require a lot of skill to use (unless your PC lags like no tomorrow) just point and shoot. The only skill that I was referring to, is the Det. The Det moves fairly slow and your target should have some time to react (unless that was fired from close range) it would take some decent skill at the very least to make it hit your target (seeing how they can move at any time).

Hah! Don't fold so easily, Hawkeye.  That "point and click" argument is ridiculously poor.

Here's another variation: "You can get a lot of power out of the Scout for not a lot of skill.  Unless you're telling me that a moderate knowledge of positioning, timing, and the ability to place your crosshairs slightly in front of your target and then remote detonating the massive splash requires an excessive amount of skill_"

Playing Sharpshooter against top-tier A-class competition requires a significant amount of skill.  Oversimplifying the process to point and click is not only ridiculous, but disingenuous.  And if it were remotely true, it would absolve all shooters of any skill.

I'd suggest responding to people based on the quality of their arguments.  Pay no heed to their forum reputation or the aggressiveness/rudeness with which they post.

Edited by Nept, February 21 2013 - 09:05 PM.

[AsianJoyKiller]

Nept, on February 21 2013 - 09:04 PM, said:

HawkEyE_, on February 21 2013 - 08:35 PM, said:

AsianJoyKiller, on February 21 2013 - 08:06 PM, said:

There needs to be a tradeoff between skill and power, and at the moment, you can get a lot of power out of the SS for not a lot of skill.

Unless your telling me that a moderate knowledge of positioning, timing and the ability to place your crosshairs over a target requires an excessive amount of skill_

Yes, I know the SS's weapons do not require a lot of skill to use (unless your PC lags like no tomorrow) just point and shoot. The only skill that I was referring to, is the Det. The Det moves fairly slow and your target should have some time to react (unless that was fired from close range) it would take some decent skill at the very least to make it hit your target (seeing how they can move at any time).

Hah! Don't fold so easily, Hawkeye.  That "point and click" argument is ridiculously poor.

Here's another variation: "You can get a lot of power out of the Scout for not a lot of skill.  Unless you're telling me that a moderate knowledge of positioning, timing, and the ability to place your crosshairs slightly in front of your target and then remote detonating the massive splash requires an excessive amount of skill_"

Playing Sharpshooter against top-tier A-class competition requires a significant amount of skill.  Oversimplifying the process to point and click is not only ridiculous, but disingenuous.  And if it were remotely true, it would absolve all shooters of any skill.

I'd suggest responding to people based on the quality of their arguments.  Pay no heed to their forum reputation or the aggressiveness/rudeness with which they post.

Maybe you should try a stronger argument than "I don't like his position, and don't listen to him because I say so."

[Nept]

AsianJoyKiller, on February 21 2013 - 09:31 PM, said:

Nept, on February 21 2013 - 09:04 PM, said:

HawkEyE_, on February 21 2013 - 08:35 PM, said:

AsianJoyKiller, on February 21 2013 - 08:06 PM, said:

There needs to be a tradeoff between skill and power, and at the moment, you can get a lot of power out of the SS for not a lot of skill.

Unless your telling me that a moderate knowledge of positioning, timing and the ability to place your crosshairs over a target requires an excessive amount of skill_

Yes, I know the SS's weapons do not require a lot of skill to use (unless your PC lags like no tomorrow) just point and shoot. The only skill that I was referring to, is the Det. The Det moves fairly slow and your target should have some time to react (unless that was fired from close range) it would take some decent skill at the very least to make it hit your target (seeing how they can move at any time).

Hah! Don't fold so easily, Hawkeye.  That "point and click" argument is ridiculously poor.

Here's another variation: "You can get a lot of power out of the Scout for not a lot of skill.  Unless you're telling me that a moderate knowledge of positioning, timing, and the ability to place your crosshairs slightly in front of your target and then remote detonating the massive splash requires an excessive amount of skill_"

Playing Sharpshooter against top-tier A-class competition requires a significant amount of skill.  Oversimplifying the process to point and click is not only ridiculous, but disingenuous.  And if it were remotely true, it would absolve all shooters of any skill.

I'd suggest responding to people based on the quality of their arguments.  Pay no heed to their forum reputation or the aggressiveness/rudeness with which they post.

Maybe you should try a stronger argument than "I don't like his position, and don't listen to him because I say so."

I trust that you actually understand the thrust of my argument and are playing ignorant to save face.  If not, try another read:

Quote

That "point and click" argument is ridiculously poor.

Here's another variation: "You can get a lot of power out of the Scout for not a lot of skill.  Unless you're telling me that a moderate knowledge of positioning, timing, and the ability to place your crosshairs slightly in front of your target and then remote detonating the massive splash requires an excessive amount of skill_"

Playing Sharpshooter against top-tier A-class competition requires a significant amount of skill.  Oversimplifying the process to point and click is not only ridiculous, but disingenuous.  And if it were remotely true, it would absolve all shooters of any skill.

And if you've truly missed it again, I present a boldfaced variation:

Nept][b]Oversimplifying the process to point and click is not only ridiculous, on but disingenuous.[/b, said:

[Nept]

Doublepost.

Edited by Nept, February 21 2013 - 09:50 PM.

[AsianJoyKiller]

Nept, on February 21 2013 - 09:49 PM, said:

Playing Sharpshooter against top-tier A-class competition requires a significant amount of skill. Oversimplifying the process to point and click is not only ridiculous, but disingenuous.  And if it were remotely true, it would absolve all shooters of any skill.

You know what else requires a using a significant amount of skill when playing against top-tier A-Classes_
Every mech in the game.

[Krellus]

Thing about SS power shot is that the damage is instant and happens from across the other end of the field, without warning and no real chance to avoid, which is unlike most damage in this game.

[Nept]

[quote name='AsianJoyKiller' timestamp='1361513286' post='213750']
[quote name='Nept' timestamp='1361512148' post='213738']Playing Sharpshooter against top-tier A-class competition requires a significant amount of skill. Oversimplifying the process to point and click is not only ridiculous, but disingenuous.  And if it were remotely true, it would absolve all shooters of any skill.[/quote]
You know what else requires a using a significant amount of skill when playing against top-tier A-Classes_
Every mech in the game.
[/quote]

And you've evaded your error yet again.  We'll get it eventually! [quote name='Nept]Oversimplifying the process to point and click is not only ridiculous' date=' but disingenuous.[/quote']

[AUTOAL]

HawkEyE_, on February 20 2013 - 10:08 PM, said:

Alrighty, so I have been seeing a lot of "SS are OP" or "SS powershot is too strong nerf it" posts lately, so I decided to set everyone straight. The SS is not OP, the ability however, seems to need tweaking/changing. I will list every mechs total damage that it can do in 3 seconds. (3 seconds was chosen due to the SS max level Powershot)

All data used in this list was provided by the Hawken Wiki page: http://hawkenwiki.net/wiki/Main_Page

Class A mechs:

Berserker
: Submachine Cannon and TOW Rocket, total damage in 3 seconds: 446 (With Ballistic Barrage Ability 512.9)
: Assault Rifle and TOW Rocket, total damage in 3 seconds: 423.2 (With Ballistic Barrage Ability 486.68)
: Point-D Vulcan and TOW Rocket, total damage in 3 seconds: 480.2 (With Ballistic Barrage Ability 552.23)

Infiltrator
: Assault Rifle and Grenade Launcher, total damage in 3 seconds: 388.2
: Heat Cannon and Grenade Launcher, total damage in 3 seconds: 370.2
: EOC Repeater and Grenade Launcher, total damage in 3 seconds: 360

Scout
: Mini Flak Cannon and TOW Rocket, total damage in 3 seconds: 567.8
: Flak Cannon and TOW Rocket, total damage in 3 seconds: 479.6
: Heat Cannon and TOW Rocket, total damage in 3 seconds: 405.2

Reaper
: AM-SAR and KE-Sabot, total damage in 3 seconds: 234.6 (With scoped 370)
: Hawkins-RPR and KE-Sabot, total damage in 3 seconds: 320.7 (With scoped 330.7)
: Slug Rifle and KE-Sabot, total damage in 3 seconds: 287.1 (With scoped 297.1)

Class B mechs:

Assault
: Submachine Cannon and TOW Rocket, total damage in 3 seconds: 446
: Point-D Vulcan and TOW Rocket, total damage in 3 seconds: 480.2
: Assault Rifle and TOW Rocket, total damage in 3 seconds: 423.2

Sharpshooter
: SA Hawkins and Sabot Rifle, total damage in 3 seconds: 346.3 (Scoped 380.3) (With min (2 seconds) Power Shot Ability 484.4 (Scoped 535.4)) (With max (3 seconds) Power Shot Ability 519.45 (Scoped 570.45))
: Slug Rifle and Sabot Rifle, total damage in 3 seconds: 333.1 (Scoped 367.1) (With min (2 seconds) Power Shot Ability 466.8 (Scoped 517.8)) (With max (3 seconds) Power Shot Ability 499.65 (Scoped 550.65))
: AM-SAR and Sabot Rifle, total damage in 3 seconds: 280.6 (Scoped 440) (With min (2 seconds) Power Shot Ability 396.8 (Scoped 615)) (With max (3 seconds) Power Shot Ability 420.9 (Scoped 660))

Bruiser
: Point-D Vulcan and Hellfire Missiles, total damage in 3 seconds: 503.2
: Submachine Cannon and Hellfire Missiles, total damage in 3 seconds: 469
: Assault Rifle and Hellfire Missiles, total damage in 3 seconds: 446.2

CR-T Recruit
: Assault Rifle and TOW Rocket, total damage in 3 seconds: 423.2
: Submachine Cannon and TOW Rocket, total damage in 3 seconds: 446
: Point-D Vulcan and TOW Rocket, total damage in 3 seconds: 480.2

Class C mechs:

Brawler
: Flak Cannon and TOW Rocket, total damage in 3 seconds: 479.6
: SA Hawkins and TOW Rocket, total damage in 3 seconds: 395.3
: Point-D Vulcan and TOW Rocket, total damage in 3 seconds: 480.2

Rocketeer
: Seeker and Hellfire Missiles, total damage in 3 seconds: 442.9
: EOC Repeater and Hellfire Missiles, total damage in 3 seconds: 418
: Heat Cannon and Hellfire Missiles, total damage in 3 seconds: 428.2

Grenadier
: REV-GL and Grenade Launcher, total damage in 3 seconds: 411.6
: Heat Cannon and Grenade Launcher, total damage in 3 seconds: 370.2
: Point-D Vulcan and Grenade Launcher, total damage in 3 seconds: 445.2

Vanguard
: Submachine Cannon and Grenade Launcher, total damage in 3 seconds: 411
: Mini Flak Cannon and Grenade Launcher, total damage in 3 seconds: 532.8
: Point-D Vulcan and Grenade Launcher, total damage in 3 seconds: 445.2

(All mechs are at level 1 with no upgrades except for the max SS ability data)

As you can see, the SS is by no means OP. There are lots of other mechs that do more damage than a SS (In raw damage w/o abilities) and most have a higher ROF than the SS. The current ability does indeed make it the most powerful mech (for 3 seconds) with the AM-SAR and I do agree that the ability needs to be worked on.

Yes, I know that the SS uses hitscan weapons, but regardless of what some people say, these weapons DO require you to aim. If you miss then there is a whole second between your shots giving your target time to dodge/attack you. Every other mech in the game (except for the Reaper) has some kind of "soft-aim" weapon, meaning that you can miss your target and still damage it. Also, nearly every single mech can out-damage the SS (even when it is scoped) in CQC. So, there is no reason to nerf the SS in damage/ROF and anyone who says otherwise is just a crying noob.

Here is some suggestions that I have found/thought of to change the SS current ability to:

Power Shot: (Nerfed) Does the same effect as current Power Shot, but it makes the cool-down 2 minutes.

Power Reroute: Does the same effect as current Power Shot, but it temporarily disables your radar.

Power Scan: Temporarily lets you see enemy mechs red hitboxes through walls.

Power Snipe: Increases damage based on how far away your target is. (This would make the SS ability exclusively sniping)

Silent Shot: Temporarily removes your radar shooting signature, shooting sounds, and the direction indicator from where they are hit. (This would also promote sniping from being able to snipe w/o giving away your position)

Piercing Shot: Temporarily makes your shots travel through multiple mechs. (So you could multi-kill with a single shot)

(Please vote on the poll so that the devs might change the SS's current ability to something better balanced)

So, now that you can see that the SS is NOT OP and for those of you that still think it is, I have this for you:

in my opinion SS is not OP but power shot is OP.(plz forgive my bad language)
shot, dodge, run and wait for special weapon cd is a common thing we do in this game. SS's PS means doing large damage in short time and make pro players more pro.
thanks for listing these damages in 3secs. but in a game ppl dont stand still and shoot each other.
for those data, SS is not op. but in real game, SS is op a little. SS' ability is gain about 47% damage. i think 40%is enough

sometimes i find that this game is simple, pick SS or die

[Beemann]

[quote name='Nept' timestamp='1361514585' post='213763']
And you've evaded your error yet again.  We'll get it eventually! [quote name='Nept]Oversimplifying the process to point and click is not only ridiculous' date=' but disingenuous.[/quote']
[/quote]
Except it IS literally point and click. You don`t factor in travel time, which means you don`t lead and your opponent can`t dodge. If we compare this to a direct hit from the HEAT, the HEAT is going to be far less effective (because you simply can`t guarantee the same sorts of shots) AND require more skill
Implying that a hitscan weapon takes as much skill to use as a projectile is disingenuous, and implying that ease of use isn`t a factor is equally so

[AsianJoyKiller]

In case anybody is confused about how powerful Power Shot is, and how fast you can kill, here's a video.

Fully offensive specced SS vs 500 hp Beserker
No items used.
Kill time: 1 second from first shot, 2 salvos

http://youtu.be/QuZHnu44skk

Are you telling me that's not too powerful_

[Nept]

[quote name='Beemann' timestamp='1361517131' post='213784']
[quote name='Nept' timestamp='1361514585' post='213763']
And you've evaded your error yet again.  We'll get it eventually! [quote name='Nept]Oversimplifying the process to point and click is not only ridiculous' date=' but disingenuous.[/quote']
[/quote]
Except it IS literally point and click. You don`t factor in travel time, which means you don`t lead and your opponent can`t dodge. If we compare this to a direct hit from the HEAT, the HEAT is going to be far less effective (because you simply can`t guarantee the same sorts of shots) AND require more skill
Implying that a hitscan weapon takes as much skill to use as a projectile is disingenuous, and implying that ease of use isn`t a factor is equally so
[/quote]

Except you don't need a direct hit from the HEAT.  Implying that a projectile with massive splash isn't easy to use is disingenuous.  You're also forgetting the zoom-in time necessary for sabots, as Hawken doesn't permit immediate quick scoping.  Remember that simple comparisons don't adequately describe the skill required to use certain weapons in certain situations.  You're committing the same error as asian: you're oversimplifying.

I posted this explanation on an earlier thread.

[quote=Nept]
Soft-aimed, remote det splash weaponry is ubiquitous.  Most mechs need not expose themselves to do significant damage; they need not even hit their target, for that matter.  As a result, most high-level play involves humping cover, watching the radar, and exposing your mech only briefly - long enough to fire your remote det tow, remote det nade, or your massive-splash heat cannon.  Maybe you'll have to take a shot with your easy-aim, hitscan flak cannon.  In this setting, the sharpshooter carries a massive disadvantage.  Against a quality player, you've a half second to zoom in, take your shot, and evade the incoming tow - a procedure that's complicated by the zoom-in time.  This process becomes slightly easier at medium ranges, but remains unreasonably difficult for most players.

After you've fired your salvo, you've 4-5 seconds before you're triggering that sabot again, and 1.158 before the slug.  That gives the (often faster) enemy plenty of time to close any distance.  In other words, if you're beaten by a sharpshooter at close-medium range, that player damn well deserved that kill:  he/she pinpointed every shot against a fast-moving target while you splashed around with soft-aim and cover.[/quote]

Edited by Nept, February 21 2013 - 11:23 PM.

[Beemann]

Nept, on February 21 2013 - 11:21 PM, said:

Except you don't need a direct hit from the HEAT.  Implying that a projectile with massive splash isn't easy to use is disingenuous.  You're also forgetting the zoom-in time necessary for sabots, as Hawken doesn't permit immediate quick scoping.  Remember that simple comparisons don't adequately describe the skill required to use certain weapons in certain situations.  You're committing the same error as asian: you're oversimplifying.

splash hits also don't do full damage... don't you think you're oversimplifying a bit_
There's also the EOC....
It's worth noting that even with that, the reaction time given to the target of someone using projectiles is larger than it is for someone being hit by hitscan weapons. The first bit of damage isn't done at t=0, and with the S&S+PS you're able to finish them off right after

Speaking of which, what do you think of that video_ The only way to do anything that without using S&S is to use the EOC, which is considerably harder to hit with

[Nept]

Beemann, on February 21 2013 - 11:31 PM, said:

Nept, on February 21 2013 - 11:21 PM, said:

Except you don't need a direct hit from the HEAT.  Implying that a projectile with massive splash isn't easy to use is disingenuous.  You're also forgetting the zoom-in time necessary for sabots, as Hawken doesn't permit immediate quick scoping.  Remember that simple comparisons don't adequately describe the skill required to use certain weapons in certain situations.  You're committing the same error as asian: you're oversimplifying.

splash hits also don't do full damage... don't you think you're oversimplifying a bit_
There's also the EOC....
It's worth noting that even with that, the reaction time given to the target of someone using projectiles is larger than it is for someone being hit by hitscan weapons. The first bit of damage isn't done at t=0, and with the S&S+PS you're able to finish them off right after

Speaking of which, what do you think of that video_ The only way to do anything that without using S&S is to use the EOC, which is considerably harder to hit with

The splash damage in Hawken is ridiculously high.  But yes, that is an oversimplification.  However, the fact you can do that damage around corners circumvents the slight damage degradation.  And since we're admitting to oversimplifications, I think it's time that you and asian did the same.

If you've not noticed, my entire argument has been with asian's especially poor point re: hitscan and his subsequent evasions. Simply put, you cannot evaluate skill differentials with simple numerical or hitscan vs. non-hitscan comparisons.  You cannot balance weapons without a complete picture - a picture that takes into account a game's overall pacing, enemy speeds and dodging capabilities, firing rates, splash, map construction and control points, and added difficulties (e.g., Hawken's slow zoom-in times).  Admit your oversimplifications and acknowledge that complete pictures are necessary.  

Then we can have a discussion.

*Edit* Heading to bed - can't wait around all night for your compositions.

Edited by Nept, February 21 2013 - 11:58 PM.

[Beemann]

Nept, on February 21 2013 - 11:44 PM, said:

Stuff

Hitscan ignores the level of mobility. Rather than have an exchange in which a shot is fired through a combination of timing, prediction and aim, and is avoided using speed, timing and prediction, often with the help of cover, you simply have the skill required to hit a moving target
That's it
If you look at previous posts by Asian and myself, you'll find that we actually oppose the current splash radius present in the majority of explosive weapons. The issue here is that your argument is a red herring
So here are the primary issues

1. Hitscan is, and always has been, easier than a projectile equivalent. In a max damage scenario (which was calculated wrong in the OP btw. hitscan damage starts at T=0s and ends and T=3s, the OP has it starting at T=1s), you'd be comparing a direct hit HEAT to a hit from a slug or sabot, and the frequency of said hits. You'd also have to consider the ease with which simultaneous hits can be made with both primary and secondary, as doing so with the HEAT and TOW is considerably harder
Finally, and most importantly, you must consider the retaliation potential, both in terms of time and in terms of player influence on hits. With a projectile weapon, you can dodge, feint etc. and, should splash be used, you have a decent window of time in which to move or push in and force a fight on your own terms

2. The Sharpshooter does obscene damage. As shown in that video, if you aren't killing an A mech during PS, it's because you can't snipe very well (not to be rude or anything, but there's not really a nice way to say that) or because you have noticeable levels of lag
With the way that s&s+ps works, you have ONE SECOND of time to act as an A class. You cannot dodge the projectile, because there isn't one, and as such you are at the mercy of your opponent's accuracy. Additionally you cannot dish out an equivalent amount of damage within the same timespan unless you're a sharpshooter as well

Edited by Beemann, February 22 2013 - 12:06 AM.

[RedVan]

AsianJoyKiller, on February 21 2013 - 11:17 PM, said:

In case anybody is confused about how powerful Power Shot is, and how fast you can kill, here's a video.

Fully offensive specced SS vs 500 hp Beserker
No items used.
Kill time: 1 second from first shot, 2 salvos

http://youtu.be/QuZHnu44skk

Are you telling me that's not too powerful_

O SNAP!  YOU KILLED A STATIONARY TARGET!

*pats AJK on the head* "it's ok, everyone's gotta start somewhere"

Edited by RedVan, February 22 2013 - 09:41 AM.