148 replies to this topic

[Nov8tr]

FenixStryk, I understand your point of view. And I played the original series when it came out. The new online version is suffering not because of 3PV but because of massive bugs, coding problems, lag, etc. 3PV is the last of their problems. I do agree no game should be rushed out without proper coding and testing of 3PV. Do I require 3PV to continue playing Hawken_ Of course not, it just something I would LIKE in my personal opinion. And last of all let us not forget, THIS game and MECHWARRIOR are in BETA. Not a finished product, not close. I spent 10 minutes last night searching online and found a dozen cheat sites for this game and its not even out. There were PAGES  of them. Cheaters are such losers, they are straight up saying they don't have the skill to play. I don't mind losing to a better player. Hell I still do good, BUT I'm also 60 so I am going to lost to some faster players, its just a fact. I'm not mad. I'm mad when people cheat. I don't think 3PV is "cheating". But thats my opinion, your mileage may vary.

Edited by Nov8tr, August 11 2013 - 11:13 AM.

[AsianJoyKiller]

Hawken is a FPS.
Now who can tell me what "FPS" stands for (in the context as a game genre)_

Edited by AsianJoyKiller, August 11 2013 - 01:39 PM.

[Nov8tr]

https://en.wikipedia...-person_shooter

My first FPS was Wolfenstein 3D in 1992. I also playe DOOM. In fact DOOM was my first multiplayer. I played it on a BBS server with a ISDN acct. Even DOOM way back then ALSO had a 3PV.  So have many games since. It is not uncommon. Can you say adaptive game play_ Bottom line. FPS are NOT limited to inside a body, mech or whatever. It is commonly accepted for them to have more than one point of view without being a 3PV game. Diablo is 3PV. DOOM was not only a FPS, it was THE FPS.

Edited by Nov8tr, August 11 2013 - 02:34 PM.

[Sylhiri]

Pretty sure that having a third person view goes against what they are trying to achieve with Hawken in terms of gameplay and even story.

Edited by Sylhiri, August 11 2013 - 02:44 PM.

[Nov8tr]

Sylhiri, on August 11 2013 - 02:43 PM, said:

Pretty sure that having a third person view goes against what they are trying to achieve with Hawken in terms of gameplay and even story.

Now THAT is the most accurate post I've seen. It CAN be their only focus. My DESIRE for 3PV is a wish, a want, not a must have. If they say NO, fine. I'm OK with that.

[Wondrz]

T : A is a first person shooter i think, you just have the ability to simple, go third person, anyway its not like third person helps in combat except for looking around corners at times.

[AsianJoyKiller]

Nov8tr, on August 11 2013 - 02:50 PM, said:

Now THAT is the most accurate post I've seen. It CAN be their only focus. My DESIRE for 3PV is a wish, a want, not a must have. If they say NO, fine. I'm OK with that.

Let's see...
What evidence do we have that Hawken is focused on being a first person shooter_

• Hawken is a first person shooter.
  
• Hawken is being advertised as a first person shooter.
  
• This is a suggestion that has popped up dozen of times since the early Alpha days, but the devs have never bothered to even give a "maybe" to the idea.
  
• 3PV is being used in a specific manner as a function of repairing, ergo 3PV is supposed to be a special function and not a general function.
  
• 3PV has been around since the Alpha, yet it has never even been suggested that it will be used for anything other that repair and spectator functions.
  
• The HUD has been specifically designed to utilize elements only available in first person.
  
• And let's not forget, the devs have stated that the first person viewpoint is specifically there for immersion purposes.

So yeah, if you do your research, it's obvious that it's only an FPS for a reason.

Wondrz, on August 12 2013 - 02:59 AM, said:

T : A is a first person shooter i think, you just have the ability to simple, go third person, anyway its not like third person helps in combat except for looking around corners at times.

However, that ignores the large differences of scale and speed, or the types of combat that typically occur in Tribes: Ascend. Tribes is played mostly on large open maps and extremely high speeds of movement, especially in comparison to Hawken. And even then you can get a large benefit from playing in third person.

Hawken is a slow game, played in tight quarters with extremely large amount of cover. In Hawken, the benefit of 3rd person tactics like corner peeking is exponentially more powerful than it is in a game like Tribes.

[FenixStryk]

AsianJoyKiller, on August 12 2013 - 03:29 AM, said:

• The HUD has been specifically designed to utilize elements only available in first person.

Small comment: do you think 3PV would be more easily implementable if we had floating health bars and fuel gauges instead of the current HUD_ While your bullet-point list is considerably thorough, I wouldn't consider any of them a definitive proof that there's no way they could have a change of heart -- it wouldn't be the first time I've heard a company say "That was our position at the time" with a straight face.

[Silverfire]

FenixStryk, on August 12 2013 - 04:20 AM, said:

AsianJoyKiller, on August 12 2013 - 03:29 AM, said:

• The HUD has been specifically designed to utilize elements only available in first person.

Small comment: do you think 3PV would be more easily implementable if we had floating health bars and fuel gauges instead of the current HUD_ While your bullet-point list is considerably thorough, I wouldn't consider any of them a definitive proof that there's no way they could have a change of heart -- it wouldn't be the first time I've heard a company say "That was our position at the time" with a straight face.

3PV might be more easily integrated with floating indicators, but really_ That might have been their intention "at the time," but I seriously doubt they would have changed their stance AT ALL. If one of the devs' main goals is to provide an immersive experience in a mech's cockpit AND a shooter feel, then implementing 3PV would essentially kill that goal because then you would no longer be in the cockpit. That immersive feel + shooter is how Hawken has been built from the ground up and to add 3PV threatens the foundation in which Hawken was built upon. Such a change for a game at this stage of development doesn't sit well with me at all. Even if the devs were to consider 3PV, it would have most likely been tested in Alpha and not in an Open Beta, but AJK said it was not, so therefore, the devs must have not implemented it or even tried it out because it didn't fit their image of Hawken, period.

[hoghead]

AsianJoyKiller, on March 03 2013 - 09:40 PM, said:

Beefsweat, on March 03 2013 - 09:30 PM, said:

I say they just give us spectator mode already.

It's not like it's currently in the works, but the current form is in no way ready to go live.
OH WAIT

EDIT: Seriously, if they implemented it now, it would likely just end up with tons of people bitching about how spec mode sucks, ignoring the fact that it's unfinished.

The bitching and moaning is getting a little stale, were going to have an amazing patch pretty soon and I'll bet there will be plenty of bitching and moaning about it. I cant wait! Devs. hurry up please!!!!

[AsianJoyKiller]

FenixStryk, on August 12 2013 - 04:20 AM, said:

While your bullet-point list is considerably thorough, I wouldn't consider any of them a definitive proof that there's no way they could have a change of heart -- it wouldn't be the first time I've heard a company say "That was our position at the time" with a straight face.

Alone, most of them aren't definitive, but together they present a long standing history that is rather indicative of the stance.

However, the whole "1st person for immersion" thing, which by itself is definitive.

f_error, on August 12 2013 - 05:55 AM, said:

As what other game would you advertise it in its current state_ And for what other game would anyone ask for a TPV if not in a FPS with mechs_
Think of any game in any genre where you see your character. That's a 3rd person game. People could ask for 3rd person viewpoint in anything from a shooter where it ends up being over the shoulder, a RTS where you view things from an eye-in-the-sky, a fighting game where you view characters from the side or even a turn based RPG where you might see your character from a raised isometric view.

So to answer your question, you could ask for a TPV in almost any game ever.
A list of 3rd person capable games from my Steam library to demonstrate that point.

• Assassin's Creed series
  
• Bastion
  
• Batman: Arkham City
  
• Beat Hazard
  
• Chivalry
  
• Command and Conquer series
  
• Company of Heroes series
  
• DCUO
  
• EDF
  
• Skyrim
  
• Fallout
  
• LIMBO
  
• Mark of the Ninja
  
• Marvel Heroes
  
• Mass Effect series
  
• Red Faction: Armageddon
  
• Saints Row series
  
• NFS Shift 2
  
• Star Wars: Jedi Knight series
  
• SMNC
  
• Supreme Commander
  
• Tomb Raider
  
• Torchlight
  
• Warhammer 40k Space Marine
  
• The Witcher 2
  
• XCOM: Enemy Unknown

How many of those games are mech-based shooters_ How many are shooters at all_ How many have mechs_
Being a mech based shooter doesn't magically predispose Hawken to somehow be a better 3PV candidate. If anything, that actually makes it a better candidate for first person perspective due to the unique immersive options it presents that can't be found in any other genre, as only racing games and flight games tend to offer cockpit views.

Correct. So far they also have denied that lasers will ever be used, so_ Its not like you have to approve of everything as soon as its mentioned the first time.
Where did they deny lasers would be used_ Last time I saw them comment on energy weapons it was a definite "maybe" with a distinctly positive reception.

Anyway, you're right in that they don't have to approve everything the first time around, but 3rd person is something they have actively denied in the past. It's one thing when they haven't said a peep, but another entirely when they've mentioned in interviews that they've purposefully built the game in 1st person for a reason.

And keep in mind how much hawken is under development and still changes. Its not like TPV would be the feature to print cash.
The ability to change does not necessitate change. Just because it can be done, doesn't mean it should be done.

What are "special" and "general" functions_ Is that an official gaming/developing term_ Is hawken not allowed to have a general TPV by law of nature_
By "general function" I meant a mechanic that makes up the status quo of the game, like walking around and fighting in first person. By "special", I meant a function that removes you from first person for a very specific reason, such as giving more situational awareness during a moment of weakness (repairing) or for non-active functions like spectating.

That is incorrect. The spectator view includes TPV. Many people are asking for it. It partly exists and is supposed to be the next step from the killcam.
Additionally it raises (or should) a lot more concern about abuse and "unfair advantage" since common spectator views also allow to follow enemies, while TPV does not.
Um... You didn't read what I said. It's obvious because you're denying what I'm saying by saying pretty much exactly what I said.
Furthermore, it's extremely easy to mitigate "advantages" by having a spectator relay information by simply delaying what spectators see, so that that any information they gain is out of date, especially in a game where camping is of minimal usefulness.

Correct. Does that make the devs unable to design something new_
No, but that's not the point. It's an obvious piece of evidence that shows how committed they are to the first person design.
When you look at games that allow you to switch between 1st and 3rd person views, how many of them have HUDs that are different for each perspective, especially when it comes to action games_

The "immersion" in hawken is a complete joke. Its purely based on a "fictional comical universe" with, pardon my french, "fuzzy bunny" effects like unlimited ammo, unlimited recharging fuel, blocking weapons while moving, weapons overheating each other, tiny energy shield generators that can block rockets, mechanical weapons like guns and rockets getting shutdown by emp while walking electronics are unaffected, drones that repair destroyed material with laser beams, mechs that assimilate material from other mechs by the means of magical beams, machines that can climb rocks and fly up in the air and turn 180° fast enough to blackout the pilot, but can not turn fast 90°, mechs that can take 90% of "damage" from bullets and explosions and "deconstruction" but still are 100% operational and physically unaffected, ...
How immersed can you feel as a pilot who does not even have the ability to look sideways, or cant put a rear view camera/mirror on his mech_
How immersed can you feel, when 50% of your teams rockets end up in the back of a teammate that just dodged in line of sight, without doing any damage to him while they hurt you when you shoot at your feet_ (currently my biggest immersion conflict)
Immersion is not a question of mechanics. It depends on your point of view.
Immersion actually is a question of mechanics, as certain mechanics typically give players a better sense of immersion than others. It can be of limited use in a game where you're just a pair of hands or a floating gun, but when turn that into being in a cockpit, it's much more effective.
Also keep in mind, immersion != realism.

No hate intended, but i fail to see how most of your points are anything but redundand. EVERY game is "something else" before it gets a certain feature. That is like
"Mom, can i have icing on my cake. No! You see there is no icing on top, so it is intended not to get some."
What a ridiculously inaccurate analogy. I'm not sure it even makes sense, as it is not a requirement that cakes have icing.

And games aren't simply "something else" before they get certain features. There is a design and intended path that they follow.

An accurate analogy would be like saying, "Mom, could I have icing on the cake_"
"No dear, this particular type of cake isn't meant to have icing on it. By putting icing on it, it unbalances the flavors and makes the cake worse."

hoghead, on August 12 2013 - 06:00 AM, said:

were going to have an amazing patch pretty soon

And you know this how_

Edited by AsianJoyKiller, August 12 2013 - 02:50 PM.

[onehourleft]

DoctorSprocket, on March 02 2013 - 04:17 PM, said:

Why not have a customizable cockpit_ The same way you'd do in your car with bobble heads and fuzzy dice (not those specifically, but you get the idea). It would feel so much more like your own mech and would give it a feeling of character. You could have pictures stuck to the inside of the mech with images you input yourself.

[onehourleft]

DoctorSprocket, on March 02 2013 - 04:17 PM, said:

Why not have a customizable cockpit_ The same way you'd do in your car with bobble heads and fuzzy dice (not those specifically, but you get the idea). It would feel so much more like your own mech and would give it a feeling of character. You could have pictures stuck to the inside of the mech with images you input yourself.

I think my mech would end up looking like a combination of these cockpits

[GodsHolyMember]

My Mech needs to get detailed

Oh, and NO THIRD-PERSON VIEW!!!

• It's not immersive
  
• It's unimaginative
  
• It allows you to look around corners and over obstacles, and lowers the likelihood someone can flank you
  
• None of the reasons you gave are good reasons for why it should be implemented...cosmetic stuff...really_  LOL

[Zanozus]

Please, introduce rearview mirrors into cockpit ! (or special cameras)

Edited by Zanozus, August 13 2013 - 08:27 AM.

[Skrill]

Wondrz, on August 11 2013 - 05:00 AM, said:

I Totally vote for third person view so then i would totally buy thrusters (cosmetics), but when an enemy has spotted you in puts you back into first person, so if a explosion happens near you like a grenade it'll swap you back to first person and then you cant go back into third person mode in 30 seconds, this time limit can be debated however,

Also like my new profile pic, HUE@W

No. Spend ten minutes thinking about what you just typed and you will see why this is a bad idea. If you don't see it pm me and I'll happily explain why.

[Sylhiri]

So they are making a special Oculus Rift cockpit that helps with the immersion of play for those people who wear one. I suppose that you can have a 3rd person view of this too but unless you separate anyone that uses Third Person from players that use First Person (separating the community even more), your going to have balancing issues. If one person can look around the corner due to a magical floating camera while another player can't, you can see the problem here. Not only that, in third person you have a lot more visual range then someone in first person which also gives them an edge. Even if you made the camera close enough where it wasn't that big of an advantage, most of your screen would be covered from the mech itself as they have large models, it would just be a really crappy 1st person view.

It's just not a good idea financially to change entire game mechanics to balance out between the two or even switch to just third person just for a tiny visual change that some people enjoy in other games.

Edited by Sylhiri, August 13 2013 - 10:42 AM.