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RAIDERS ARE OP FACT


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#41 OdinTheWise

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Posted March 10 2013 - 06:41 PM

Yes, we all know most of the SK guys are very blunt and/or tactless on the forums. But rdknightmarez does not need to post dumb fuzzy bunny all the time.  Every time I have seen rdknightmarez post any thing it has been fuzzy bunny.

FYI AJK, a little tact goes a long way, most of your posts come as abrasive at best regardless of how valid you are

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#42 tman7919

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Posted March 10 2013 - 06:45 PM

View PostElix, on March 10 2013 - 06:22 PM, said:

View PostElix, on March 10 2013 - 06:06 PM, said:

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#43 Beemann

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Posted March 10 2013 - 07:03 PM

View PostrdKNIGHTMAREZ, on March 10 2013 - 05:53 PM, said:

Or you increase the flexibility/focus potential of the other classes by giving them 2 options on one of their arms, and balance it that way...which is better.
you will still get lots of people buying mechs for
A: their different special abilties
B: the 'choices' on the right arm can be radically different for each class.
C: The player feels the mech is personalized.
If you have to balance against an OP combo by doing the same thing on every class (because, as you said, the dual wielding class is more powerful) then it isn't balanced and the only way to not feel gimped is to dual wield. If the raider is an example of dual wielding gone wrong because non-dual wielding combos can't match up to it specifically due to its dual wielding then dual wielding is more powerful. There's no other way around it

If the game has to be rebalanced around some new concept, that new concept isn't actually balanced. It should work the other way around, whereby new mechanics, weapons etc. are balanced around a pre-existing baseline derived from a game's core mechanics
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#44 TwiceDead

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Posted March 10 2013 - 07:05 PM

Hmmm... *Grabs popcorn* B)
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#45 Moderator03

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Posted March 10 2013 - 07:14 PM

Keep posts Constructive and Inviting.

#46 rdKNIGHTMAREZ

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Posted March 10 2013 - 08:00 PM

Beeman provides a constructive and inviting criticism.

Something worth my time and attention.

The problem of the op'ness of Raider is a combination of strengths, from toughness, break-neck speed and extreme dps...but also flexibility with its 'dual mode' function. All of these things combined.... in the hands of a 4-5star pilot picking the best upgrades to combine with it's strengths....results in a simply better mech. Why play scout when you can play Raider_

Its secondary weapon with it's two modes is More powerful than the suggestion i made,

(the suggestion: being able to swap the now 1-weapon arm for 2 choices in the garage, one perhaps being a copy of the left arm.)

The raider is more powerful than even that because it can switch them at will. The fact that one of them is also a shotgun allowing the mech to be "double shotgun" compounds the situation.

If other mech classes could FOCUS like this the game as a whole would be more balanced and more fun. Unlocking such abilities at high levels gives the player late-game rewards and unique combinations to look foward in a way a 3rd gun doesn't.

Right now each mech gets 3 options.
if one could simply swap the right arm for 1 of 2 choices (class based ofc) and the left arm had 2 choices....each mech gets 4 options.

I can understand why the original build of the game was flawed but it had something like 6 options on one arm and 7 on the other for each class.

Back to my suggestion.

Not only would it not feel silly, (1 choice for the right arm_ eh_) and stop the game from being tow-launcher online, but it would also allow me the OPTION to FOCUS my mechs on either short, medium, long range or extreme range.

right now the raider, even without it's op speed boost, is the only truly short-range mech. The scout for example, despite having a shotgun, has a Tow launcher as well. a medium-long-seomtimes-sniping weapon.

If i chose a build that isn't focused and gets stomped by one that is, it's not the games fault. it's mine. Likewise if someone uses the terrain and the flexibility of a mixed long-medium/wtv build... and beats me...its not the games fault its mine.

I chose scissor he picked rock, nothing wrong there. gg

when you give one guy a pistol, then it's not paper-scissor rock anymore. it's just a pistol fight.

Edited by rdKNIGHTMAREZ, March 10 2013 - 08:08 PM.


#47 Elix

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Posted March 10 2013 - 08:07 PM

rd, what you're saying is that the Raider is imbalanced compared to the rest of the mechs available, and I think AJK could agree with that statement.

But where you and the rest of us differ is this: We see an opportunity to nerf the Raider to bring it in line with the others. You see it as an opportunity to take your pet theory and buff all the other mechs into line with the Raider.

This core difference of opinion is the reason this thread is continuing. Let us agree that we have different solutions to the problem and move on.
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#48 rdKNIGHTMAREZ

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Posted March 10 2013 - 08:13 PM

Oh so you are being civil now_

The fix i have suggested helps improve the game as a whole and allows the raider to be awesome and not need a MASSIVE nerf, but instead a subtle one.

And technically the 'pet theory' doesn't buff the mechs, but makes them a touch more flexible.

#49 SilentJacket

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Posted March 10 2013 - 08:18 PM

I would argue to the contrary, but I don't want to get caught up in the drama permeating this thread

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#50 Elix

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Posted March 10 2013 - 08:20 PM

When have I not been civil in this thread_ I asked you to explain your statement regarding the devs' alleged opinion of AJK, and then I warned people not to argue with you when it became clear that you were not interested in listening to opposing viewpoints, because that can only end in the mods coming in and warning people, as has happened.

I disagree with your opinions on the effects your suggestions would have on Hawken's game balance, and that's all there is to say. We shall agree to disagree. Balance is tricky, but I do not feel that your idea would be the most beneficial or balanced, and you'll just have to accept that.
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#51 AsianJoyKiller

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Posted March 10 2013 - 08:23 PM

View PostrdKNIGHTMAREZ, on March 10 2013 - 08:00 PM, said:

Right now each mech gets 3 options.
if one could simply swap the right arm for 1 of 2 choices (class based ofc) and the left arm had 2 choices....each mech gets 4 options.

I can understand why the original build of the game was flawed but it had something like 6 options on one arm and 7 on the other for each class.

Back to my suggestion.

Not only would it not feel silly, (1 choice for the right arm_ eh_) and stop the game from being tow-launcher online, but it would also allow me the OPTION to FOCUS my mechs on either short, medium, long range or extreme range.

right now the raider, even without it's op speed boost, is the only truly short-range mech. The scout for example, despite having a shotgun, has a Tow launcher as well. a medium-long-seomtimes-sniping weapon.

If i chose a build that isn't focused and gets stomped by one that is, it's not the games fault. it's mine. Likewise if someone uses the terrain and the flexibility of a mixed long-medium/wtv build... and beats me...its not the games fault its mine.

I chose scissor he picked rock, nothing wrong there. gg

when you give one guy a pistol, then it's not paper-scissor rock anymore. it's just a pistol fight.
Except then you diluting the identity of each mech and causing more redundancy problems than there already are.
Different mechs are supposed to fill different roles, and if you give every mech an option to fit every role, what's the point of even having all the different mechs_

[HWK]HUGHES, on July 03 2013 - 11:07 PM, said:

AJK is right

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#52 SilentJacket

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Posted March 10 2013 - 08:25 PM

If every mech had the ability to select custom weapons, it would be slug-and-Tow online

Edited by SilentJacket, March 10 2013 - 08:25 PM.

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#53 machmanx

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Posted March 10 2013 - 08:26 PM

Dude, in the hands of a 4 or 5 star pilot, ANY MECH becomes more powerful than it actually is, ROFL.  It's the truth. :D

All I need is a Zerker and you'll see plenty of Raiders welded into the walls. B)   I call it art, others call it destruction, ultimately it's called OWNAGE and if I, one single player, can beat Raiders with my little Zerker, then WHY...CAN'T...YOU_

Wow, and to believe that I complained about the raider being Underpowered, I laugh at this thread just because there are so many different opinions about the Raider and ALL MECHS for that matter.  Some people say pot-ae-toe, others say po-ta-toe.  I guess ultimately all opinions balance out and all this Overpowered vs Underpowered cancel each other out :D

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#54 Elix

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Posted March 10 2013 - 08:28 PM

Adding to AJK's statement, the devs explicitly veered away from the "anything goes" weapons loadout in early testing because it led to min/maxing and everyone running with the same one or two weapons combos. Choosing any combo other than the most powerful ones meant you handicapped yourself voluntarily for no reason. Everyone was in the same mech with the same two weapon loadouts.

However, by restricting the choices, you create roles and tactical decisions. Do you go for the grenade launcher secondary for bouncing around corners, or do you go for the TOW for direct dumb-fire damage_ Or do you choose hellfires instead_ And then, what class of mech do you want_ Slow and heavy ( C) or light and fragile (A)_ Or, in between with B_

All of that goes out the door as soon as you unrestrict weapon choice.

Edit: No, I did not want a copyright symbol in there, forum, thank you.

Edited by Elix, March 10 2013 - 08:29 PM.

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#55 AsianJoyKiller

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Posted March 10 2013 - 08:32 PM

View Postmachmanx, on March 10 2013 - 08:26 PM, said:

Dude, in the hands of a 4 or 5 star pilot, ANY MECH becomes more powerful than it actually is, ROFL.  It's the truth. :D
No. That's not how it works.
The higher the skill of the pilot, the greater the chance a mech will be used to is full and true potential.
In other words, if the pilot is a 5 star pilot, then and only then will you see how powerful the mech actually is.

[HWK]HUGHES, on July 03 2013 - 11:07 PM, said:

AJK is right

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#56 Analysis

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Posted March 10 2013 - 08:53 PM

View PostrdKNIGHTMAREZ, on March 10 2013 - 04:04 PM, said:

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It's basically a DUAL WIELDING shot gun class, but no-one else can dual wield.

They have more HP than lights. DO insane dps, and also when used in gangs are unstoppable.

Just had a match of siege where it was 3000/0 hp loss. It was a struggle just to kill one of them.

My solution_ make other classes able to dual wield and then it's not just the Raider that can effectively do it.
Maybe you want to sell mechs, but not giving people two right-arm-choices is silly.
Having one choice only feels like im piloting a tow-launcher with a mech attached.

Bring on the trolls to play devils advocate with the absurdity that is the op'ness of the Raider.

Based on your story I'm guessing this is more of difference in skill instead of a difference in power between mechs.

#57 Teljaxx

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Posted March 10 2013 - 08:56 PM

The way the mech classes are designed in Hawken makes it so that they are defined by their secondary weapon. Not being able to change it at all makes it so that the primary reason to pick what mech to use is based off of what secondary it has. having swappable primary weapons makes this choice a bit more flexible, but adding swappable secondary weapons as well ruins the whole system.

If you take the Berzerker and give it the Grenade Launcher as an alternate secondary choice, now the only thing that makes one of its loadouts different than the Infiltrator is its special ability. And the same would be true if you gave the Assault Hellfires as an alternate Secondary, or many other combinations. This makes each mech class much more homogenous by making all of them much less unique.

This also puts much more strain on the Developers because they now have to come up with even more new secondary weapons to keep new mechs interesting. As well as making balancing the weapons harder since you have to plan around many more combinations of primary and secondary weapons.
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#58 machmanx

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Posted March 10 2013 - 09:17 PM

View PostAsianJoyKiller, on March 10 2013 - 08:32 PM, said:

View Postmachmanx, on March 10 2013 - 08:26 PM, said:

Dude, in the hands of a 4 or 5 star pilot, ANY MECH becomes more powerful than it actually is, ROFL.  It's the truth. :D
No. That's not how it works.
The higher the skill of the pilot, the greater the chance a mech will be used to is full and true potential.
In other words, if the pilot is a 5 star pilot, then and only then will you see how powerful the mech actually is.

LOL same thing.  See how we both used "powerful" and "actually is"_  Seriously man, does it matter who's more Politically Correct_  I'm just trying to get the point across that a good pilot can use any mech and kill any mech.  You're letting this guy get to you.  Cool down :D

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#59 PlagueDoctor

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Posted March 10 2013 - 09:32 PM

View Postmachmanx, on March 10 2013 - 09:17 PM, said:


LOL same thing.  See how we both used "powerful" and "actually is"_  Seriously man, does it matter who's more Politically Correct_  I'm just trying to get the point across that a good pilot can use any mech and kill any mech.  You're letting this guy get to you.  Cool down :D

Not the same thing, I mean, you're agruing semantics, but AJK is right. A top pilot will max out, much like a balloon hitting a ceiling. The balloon can't go higher than the ceiling.

On topic, I think that the Raider should be the only mech with this kind of secondary (the changing modes). It lends itself to a blitz type fighting style. Hang back, harass, wait for an opening, and rush in. If other mechs get this type of deal, it would make the Raider less valuable.


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#60 v009

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Posted March 10 2013 - 09:39 PM

View PostErdos, on March 10 2013 - 06:03 PM, said:

View Postv009, on March 10 2013 - 06:01 PM, said:

Yes. Raider had high DPS and they are OP. But only when they are in CQC. Medium to long range the Raider cannot do his business. Yes it  get's EOC at 25 but over 50 metres it's much harder to hit full burst on the target (unless it's an AI pilot). It can use Blitz to close the gap but it will take some damage closing the gap and have less fuel than the enemy afterwards.

How does an A or B class stop the Raider from closing_
This game isn't one man army game. Stick with your team. How can you make an enemy closing on you_ Hurt him so he has to think of closing on you. :unsure:  

Raider has max blitz usage of 7 seconds. If you are using A class. You can use cover, just keep on dancing around pillars and covers so he has to chase and waste time (pray you have good team mates that support you). You also have an advantage of having a smaller hit box, can move faster(except when he got blitz, even then you're marginally slower).
Raider had high DPS but why don't you play to his weakness.
The KLA-MIRV, although very powerful and has range of 90 metres (thanks to SK guys for finding it out) but you can't hit the full volley of it everytime over 50 metres (for me at least).
The T32 BOLT won't do full 120 damage unless your very close.

Playing Raider myself, it's really annoying to play against SS, Reaper, and the hell fire duo when not in your range.
Also if you get caught off guard. Just do 180 and accept your death :P
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