139 replies to this topic

[Beemann]

Xuande, on March 13 2013 - 01:06 PM, said:

Beemann, on March 13 2013 - 09:52 AM, said:

1. It DOES fire in a straight line, does 60 more damage, and works up until 90m with very little spread

It fires in a straight line up until a point, which then requires one to awkwardly aim to hit targets from a distance, without even the chance to detonate for splash damage. For the damage it does I have to say those shortcomings are pretty fair. Imo, if you get hit with one from a distance, you deserved it.

2. 90m is already pretty considerable, but 175 damage at longer range ain't bad either. The raider is hardly gimped at mid range, and outside of facility and awkward spots on Bazaar there isn't really any long range unless you're deathmatching

One doesn't need extreme distance to take on a Raider. Mid distance is good enough and learning to time your dodges with the Raider's MIRV cooldown is an extremely useful skill. As I said above, you don't have the luxury of detonating the MIRV for splash so it is very limited compared to the TOW in mid range fights. Even when you put it into "shotgun mode" your distance is severely gimped and useless in mid-range. Also (I'm not completely sure on this), the cooldowns seem longer than TOW cooldowns which makes every shot that much more precious.

3. By including Siege you should also really include MA, which is currently closest to the point of balance for this game. This game should not be balanced for deathmatch or team death match

I usually stick to TDM and Seige and I'm not sure what you mean by that last sentence.

In other words, nope

1. The MIRV travels in a perfectly straight line til max range, the KLA-GL has an arc but it's MUCH less prominent than the standard GL, and it travels faster and does more damage

2.You can time dodges for any gun. People still get hit. Again if you're within 100 meters (99 to be exact apparently) you can still get hit for a full 240 (because the spread is basically negligible
And again, for clarity, the MIRV is the shotgun

3.Siege is busted, and DM and TDM aren't a good foundation for balance. The issue you've listed is very prominent in Missile Assault, which is currently the most balanced gamemode

xXHadroncutterXx, on March 13 2013 - 02:20 PM, said:

Raider's aren't that bad untill they hit level 25. EOC + MIRV + Experienced player = a bloody nightmare. There's no way in hell you can take that guy out in CQC one on one unless you are very, very skilled or/and lucky. But still, I wouldn't call them OP just because they can output so much damage at once, look at Rocketeers and Sharpshooters, they also output a lot of damage at once. In fact, I kinda like they are tough to beat in CQC, it forces you to use actual tactics, keep your distance and most importantly, play teamwork to take them out. If they caught you in the field where they're best at with your guard down, they deserve the kill.

Rocketeers do less damage (about 50 less assuming all rockets hit) against the EOC Raider and the Rocketeer (with perfect EOC hits, just like in the other one) only deals 42 more damage than a Raider with a Bolt. Sharpshooters with powershot, slug and sabot only do as much damage as a charged bolt and MIRV combo
Additionally, the game and the Raider are super weighted for CQC. Our only objectives are location based (and the only balanced map we have right now is Origin, which is SUPER clustered around points), and the Raider has the fastest top speed in the game, and more health than an A mech
The Raider is like a superhero created by an 8 year old. It has laser vision and super speed, but it also has a magic skateboard and bat wings and a machinegun that fires missiles that fire MORE lasers, and its also a velociraptor
In other words, it's inexplicably awesome, but bad for balance

[Bratwurst]

I main my Raider, and I still have problems taking out scouts.

[Gree]

But... I find them so balanced...

[rdKNIGHTMAREZ]

it's not only the dual wield as it is the frustration of getting a mech to lvl 25 and getting a weapon i don't want to use anyway.
not having options on both arms feels weird. It's how many years in the future but mechs come with one arm attached_ eh_
Making some more weapons before the beta is over is a challenge sure, bit it would be fantastic. I would love to see the berserker with 2x smg sure.but ( at later levels) being able to pay for something other than a tow on my scout, brawler and beserker would obviously make the game better.

Quote

If they caught you in the field where they're best at with your guard down, they deserve the kill.

except in seige or missile assault where you are FORCED to stay within range of a certain object_ like the AA

Edited by rdKNIGHTMAREZ, March 13 2013 - 09:08 PM.

[Elix]

rdKNIGHTMAREZ, on March 13 2013 - 09:06 PM, said:

not having options on both arms feels weird. It's how many years in the future but mechs come with one arm attached_ eh_

Have you noticed something_ With the exception of A-class + hellfires and C-class + sabot, every class has every secondary represented on a different mech, at the moment. This allows you to make the following decision tree:

1. Do you want A-class speed/HP, B-class, or C-class_

2. Once you've selected your class, what secondary do you want_

3. You now have a single mech with the secondary you want. Assuming you have it levelled, what primary do you want to equip from the three allocated weapons_

Now you have the mech that (likely) best suits your play style, assuming you chose intelligently. Yes, the special ability varies, but that's part and parcel with the class role the mech is designed to fulfill.

Allowing mechs to dual-wield the same weapon, or sharing secondaries, takes away a significant portion of this class role. (Imagine if Berserker could equip Hellfires as they currently are, combined with its damage boost ability. Bye, balance!)

Edited by Elix, March 13 2013 - 09:28 PM.

[Packmang]

AsianJoyKiller, on March 10 2013 - 08:23 PM, said:

rdKNIGHTMAREZ, on March 10 2013 - 08:00 PM, said:

Right now each mech gets 3 options.
if one could simply swap the right arm for 1 of 2 choices (class based ofc) and the left arm had 2 choices....each mech gets 4 options.

I can understand why the original build of the game was flawed but it had something like 6 options on one arm and 7 on the other for each class.
Back to my suggestion.

Not only would it not feel silly, (1 choice for the right arm_ eh_) and stop the game from being tow-launcher online, but it would also allow me the OPTION to FOCUS my mechs on either short, medium, long range or extreme range.

right now the raider, even without it's op speed boost, is the only truly short-range mech. The scout for example, despite having a shotgun, has a Tow launcher as well. a medium-long-seomtimes-sniping weapon.

If i chose a build that isn't focused and gets stomped by one that is, it's not the games fault. it's mine. Likewise if someone uses the terrain and the flexibility of a mixed long-medium/wtv build... and beats me...its not the games fault its mine.

I chose scissor he picked rock, nothing wrong there. gg

when you give one guy a pistol, then it's not paper-scissor rock anymore. it's just a pistol fight.

Except then you diluting the identity of each mech and causing more redundancy problems than there already are.
Different mechs are supposed to fill different roles, and if you give every mech an option to fit every role, what's the point of even having all the different mechs_

Flipping thank you.  Class synergy and team coordination should take precedence over who can wtfpwn as many nubs as possible.  Play a class to its strengths and gear it/optimize it to further push those strengths.  If you treat every mech as a jack-of-all-trades, you just hamstring yourself (excluding Fred/Assault).  Of course a purpose built cqc mech will pump your buttocks up close if you just let it come up on you.  The mechanics are there to counter it.

[Packmang]

rdKNIGHTMAREZ, on March 13 2013 - 09:06 PM, said:

it's not only the dual wield as it is the frustration of getting a mech to lvl 25 and getting a weapon i don't want to use anyway.
not having options on both arms feels weird. It's how many years in the future but mechs come with one arm attached_ eh_
Making some more weapons before the beta is over is a challenge sure, bit it would be fantastic. I would love to see the berserker with 2x smg sure.but ( at later levels) being able to pay for something other than a tow on my scout, brawler and beserker would obviously make the game better.

Quote

If they caught you in the field where they're best at with your guard down, they deserve the kill.

except in seige or missile assault where you are FORCED to stay within range of a certain object_ like the AA

Zerk with dual vulcans or dual flaks!  Kamikaze build FTW!  I totally play that setup in my Hawken dreamland.

[Akaon]

Beemann, on March 13 2013 - 12:48 PM, said:

Akaon, on March 13 2013 - 12:41 PM, said:

Interesting discussion about dual wielding in a game where every single mech dual wields weapons.

Proof: http://en.wikipedia....i/Dual_wielding

I see you've chosen not to read the issue or contribute in a productive manner. I like your style, discussing game mechanics is clearly overrated anyway (thats why we're here to beta test right_ to not talk about any mechanics and quietly accept every patch)

Just pointing out that the whole definition of dual wielding is being misused. So let me ask you: how is a post purely aimed at berating me constructive to the thread_

One thing I did notice about the MIRV that kind of bothers me: it does massive damage damage to A mechs. The damage to C mechs is relatively less, but with the spread being a little like a shotgun: C mechs are not only easier to hit, they tend to get hit by more of the projectiles, resulting in more damage overall. Similar effect as with shotguns. Essentially, C mechs take more damage from these kinds of weapons, not just because they're easier to hit.

Also means that these weapons are as effective vs C mechs as they are against A mechs at longer ranges (in terms of total damage output).

[Xuande]

Beemann, on March 13 2013 - 04:14 PM, said:

1. The MIRV travels in a perfectly straight line til max range, the KLA-GL has an arc but it's MUCH less prominent than the standard GL, and it travels faster and does more damage

Again, with out the advantage of detonation splash, which means one must have near perfect aim for it to be useful. Which does, in my opinion, warrant the damage boost it gets over the TOW. Take into consider that the target is dodging, or better yet a speedy A class, a primary that requires charging for a good amount of damage or one that does hardly any considerable damage, and you got yourself a pretty difficult target to hit in mid range fights.

2.You can time dodges for any gun. People still get hit. Again if you're within 100 meters (99 to be exact apparently) you can still get hit for a full 240 (because the spread is basically negligible
And again, for clarity, the MIRV is the shotgun

See above. And of course you get hit every now and then, though for the most part, it's a lot easier to get away from Raider's KLA-GL/MIRV, than it is from the Sabot. As a Reaper I chased down Raiders yesterday. Every time they tried to close the distance in a mid range fight, I would fall back to keep it mid-ranged and continue pecking away til they were down. The MIRV was useless and I dodged the KLA-GL whenever possible, with no chance of splash damage and a weak primary, they went down without much trouble.

3.Siege is busted, and DM and TDM aren't a good foundation for balance. The issue you've listed is very prominent in Missile Assault, which is currently the most balanced gamemode.

Seige does need a lot of work. Though I'm not seeing what's wrong with TDM and DM and how MA is the best balanced.

[BlackCephie]

First of all...every mech can dual wield. It is one of the elements that sets Hawken apart from most other fps's. Dual wielding is defined by the fact that you can fire both of your weapons simultaneously.

So what about an EOC Raider pilot like myself. According to the OP, am I no longer "dual wielding"_

Secondly, Raiders are very strong, no doubt...then again, a 1v1 engagement will come down to who hits with what more often, I've said it before. I get killed all the time against scout. Then again, I kill a lot of scouts.

I'm not sure where the OP is gleaning the validity of his or her argument. The whole topic is in debate. In all likelihood, we will see s raider nerf sometime in the near future. Not necessarily because its a "fact" that its overpowered, but simply because enough people are crying about it being overpowered, so politics.

For real though, your "dual wielding" argument made me lol.

[Beemann]

Xuande, on March 14 2013 - 08:29 AM, said:

Again, with out the advantage of detonation splash, which means one must have near perfect aim for it to be useful. Which does, in my opinion, warrant the damage boost it gets over the TOW. Take into consider that the target is dodging, or better yet a speedy A class, a primary that requires charging for a good amount of damage or one that does hardly any considerable damage, and you got yourself a pretty difficult target to hit in mid range fights.

I think you overestimate the amount of dodging one can do in this game.Some level of damage can be avoided, but that applies to all weapons (even the midair detonation ones now that the min splash damage isnt so high). As well, the spread on the pellets adds a small amount of leeway when aiming at a target.  Additionally, the TOW does about 55 damage less than the MIRV and the GL does 90 less

Xuande, on March 14 2013 - 08:29 AM, said:

See above. And of course you get hit every now and then, though for the most part, it's a lot easier to get away from Raider's KLA-GL/MIRV, than it is from the Sabot. As a Reaper I chased down Raiders yesterday. Every time they tried to close the distance in a mid range fight, I would fall back to keep it mid-ranged and continue pecking away til they were down. The MIRV was useless and I dodged the KLA-GL whenever possible, with no chance of splash damage and a weak primary, they went down without much trouble.

Sabot is hitscan, so of course it's easier to get away from a projectile gun. However if you're losing to reapers as a raider, it's probably because you're not very good at it. The reaper is one of the weakest classes in the game

Xuande, on March 14 2013 - 08:29 AM, said:

Seige does need a lot of work. Though I'm not seeing what's wrong with TDM and DM and how MA is the best balanced.

Hawken is a team based game, so DM is right out
TDM doesnt provide any reason to play aggressive in a comp format. Additionally, many of the maps are very CQC focused, and have excessively close quarters spots with a good amount of defense, so not only are you forcing people to camp, but the attacking team is basically forced to use a team of CQC mechs, which at this point basically amounts to raiders. The only other option is to find a sharpie friendly spot with decent amounts of cover for the non-sharpshooters and for the repairing mechs, which is not exactly a guarantee

[Ezpikins]

AsianJoyKiller, on March 12 2013 - 04:56 PM, said:

Ezpikins, on March 12 2013 - 04:38 PM, said:

Raiders are NOT op. I have one and let me tell ya through the first 4 levels so far

Judging by the fact your Raider is Lvl. 4, and the information you posted, you don't seem to have a solid grasp on how the Raider should be played, or even some of the more basic combat tactics (like taking cover while you reload, basic heat management).

I don't think you are qualified to objectively comment on whether or not anything is overpowered.

Opinions are like A______s everyone has one. I know enough about fighting with a mech. I didn't say he was my ONLY mech did I_ I do fine with others and I made a concerted observation as a experienced pilot making observations about a mechs low level abilities. If you must flap the big mouth just to flame do it with someone else.

[Beemann]

Ezpikins, on March 14 2013 - 05:27 PM, said:

Opinions are like A______s everyone has one.

That sorta thing is generally said by people who have more going for their statements than...well.. their own opinion
What`s more, going after Asian for criticizing an objective statement you made on a public forum is a bit silly, doncha think_

[Ezpikins]

Pirits, on March 12 2013 - 06:46 PM, said:

Ezpikins, on March 12 2013 - 04:38 PM, said:

Raiders are NOT op. I have one and let me tell ya through the first 4 levels so far it's a big walking target. Sure if you get absolutely lucky and surprise someone who just got half the life kicked out of them_, you might kill them if you have the flak setting up the long range grenade takes what seems 10 minutes to reload and the flak cannon does good damage but heats up in two shots leaving you holding your bolts while the enemy empties into you.

I'm not impressed, at least not with the lower levels. The EMP Which is the default speacial weapon on the Raider is useless. Common who will stand still in a green bubble and let their energy be tapped_ If you would_ let me freind you in game I need a pigeon. What the DEV TEAM needs to do is this, the EMP needs to be an bigger area effect not a damn bubble but a flash with a big radius and any thing in that area (not small dome sized area) would be effected if its an enemy not friendlies. what about making it a small land mine that's hard to see_ You drop it and if an enemy hits/walks or slides by it, they trip it and boom they are stuck with no power for two minutes or until a friend outside the effect shoots the mine_ Makes more sense to me.

Dear god not the infinite EMP again. It had an area you couldn't dodge out of if it was heading right at you, it travled at least one and a half times faster and EMP'd for seven seconds.

Go home you're drunk. Nah I don't mean that the EMP was the weapon of cowards, now you have to be close in and take the chance when you get the hit.

Ass-hat, my drinking problem is none of your business. I say anything about permanent EMPS _ Where_ You bozo's only read two or three words its the uneducated way to do things these days. I said make it a mine instead of a tossed green bubble and i didn't say leave it up the whole match either.

[AsianJoyKiller]

Ezpikins, on March 14 2013 - 05:27 PM, said:

Opinions are like A______s everyone has one. I know enough about fighting with a mech. I didn't say he was my ONLY mech did I_ I do fine with others and I made a concerted observation as a experienced pilot making observations about a mechs low level abilities. If you must flap the big mouth just to flame do it with someone else.

If every mech played the same, then you'd have a good point.
Unfortunately, the Raider has one of the more extreme playstyles out there because of how specialized it is, and just because you do well with other mechs, does not mean you'll do well with the Raider if  you don't know how to utilize it. And at Lvl. 4, it's extremely unlikely you fully understand how to utilize it.

[Astrolis]

AsianJoyKiller, on March 10 2013 - 04:43 PM, said:

For anyone who's interested, this is what happened last time rdKNIGHTMAREZ tried to push dual wielding.
http://community.pla...g-primary-guns/

Look at those solid facts and all that concrete evidence he brought to the table.
Oh wait...
He didn't.
Nevermind.

Well at least he is consistant

[Pirits]

Ezpikins, on March 14 2013 - 05:27 PM, said:

...A______s...

Ezpikins, on March 14 2013 - 05:33 PM, said:

Ass-hat, my drinking problem is none of your business.

Based on your limited vocabulary and the ability to not realize I took back the statement about drinking as it was a jest of good will. I'm guessing you're close-minded. I drink as well, but seeing as what I said was a joke, and most people seem to read these over at their home.

I say anything about permanent EMPs_ Where_

A seven second EMP with movement enabled was a pain, how bad would a two minuet EMP with no movement be_

You bozo's only read two or three words it's the uneducated way to do things these days. I said make it a mine instead of a tossed green bubble and I didn't say leave it up the whole match either.

I read the whole post, cringing whilst I read, but I read the whole thing. And whilst a EMP mine would be fun you'd either have to stare at it (0.0) or make it's effect last longer, something the majority of the community does not want to see.

​And lastly I disapprove of hypocrites, and people that need to fall back on the less creative insults, such as the one I out-lined and the beginning of your second post.

'Hypocrites': You accuse me of only reading a few words, I didn't want to reply in full to such a flimsy argument but you've forced my hand, IF you read more than a few words out of what I wrote then thought on them to comprehend them you'd realize I was joking about the drinking, I don't stab people with words for living life the way they wish.

I didn't call you out on land-mine EMP's cause it's a half decent idea, just needs refining. The owner of said land mine can't constantly keep watch over it, how would one fix this problem, extend time. People don't like sitting in one spot for an extended amount of time, or being EMP'd for much longer than 4.5 seconds (if at all), the community would instantly call for a nerf, thus your theoretical land-mine suffers from a small amount of though.

Sorry it just seems to me few people have the patience of a spider waiting for a fly to get caught in it's web, and fewer still the amount of people that like to be a fly coated in humiliation just before being bitten by the spider in question.

Two minuet EMP in which the EMP has a massive range, and he who is EMP'd can't move, seems flawed even if it has a reload time of five minuets and takes a five second time to charge with a high-pitched screech when tripped, like the charging of an old fasioned flash bulb, or the singing of a crystal wine glass, or metal singing bowl.

[Elix]

I think this thread's officially gone off the rails now.

[Pirits]

ALL ABOARD! HAHAHAHA

*cue the guitar

[Moderator03]

This thread has de-railed and as such, it is now...

>>>CLOSED<<<