369 replies to this topic

[Akaon]

AsianJoyKiller, on March 11 2013 - 02:20 AM, said:

What if there was an option you could toggle that would force the game to render other player's mechs as using their default chassis_

I don't know much (read: anything) about how this could or would be coded, but hear me out. I mean, what we see are 3rd person models that represent other players, and not the 1st person model that we actually use, right_ So it should be possible I would think. I know Global Agenda allowed you to view other peoples armor dye (ie: paintjobs) or force what you see to be default team colors.

This is a Free to Play game, and one of the largest money makers is obviously going to be cosmetics, and what body part is more popular to customize than the chassis_ It helps give you a sense of individuality  and can be great fun. I mean, aside from your paint job, or a TOW to the face, it's probably the first thing people notice about your mech.

On the other hand, there's a lot of people who have a serious and legitimate issue with not being able to identify mechs by their silhouette, and this can be problematic in competitive play, or just when you need to quickly identify what you are fighting, and knowing how to respawn properly.

So what if you could go into your options menu and toggle an option that shows all mechs as using their default chassis_
The idea is, this would only be on your end of things, so it doesn't take the freedom of customization away from those who want to see pretty things, but if you like having the readability of silhouettes, the option is there for you.

Just so I'm being clear: This would ONLY affect what YOU see. This does not force other people to see the same.

So we let people pay for a new chassis so you can remove it. What's the point_ You can barely see your own mech, the whole idea is that others can see it.

[Keyser Soze]

AsianJoyKiller, on March 11 2013 - 11:47 AM, said:

Hey Keyser, think you could make a post that's logically sound and not full of insults_ That would be nice and help the discussion along constructively.

Well,...Logically Insults are much more fun..and also logically the idea is not bad for competitive ie PRO play (which I agree would give a fair playing field which is needed) But in the open game it just kills another way to set yourself aside from others in order to be deceptive or unique or whatever you want....I am against the Idea.........Hows That You ADD WHATEVER INSULT YOU LIKE HERE!

Edited by Keyser Soze, March 11 2013 - 01:04 PM.

[AsianJoyKiller]

Akaon, on March 11 2013 - 12:46 PM, said:

So we let people pay for a new chassis so you can remove it. What's the point_ You can barely see your own mech, the whole idea is that others can see it.

You understand this is an option, and not everyone will use it, yes_
Plenty of people, myself included, would end up seeing your fancy paint and chassis, just not everyone.

[AsianJoyKiller]

Keyser Soze, on March 11 2013 - 01:00 PM, said:

Well,...Logically Insults are much more fun..and also logically the idea is not bad for competitive ie PRO play (which I agree would give a fair playing field which is needed) But in the open game it just kills another way to set yourself aside from others in order to be deceptive or unique or whatever you want....I am against the Idea.........ADD WHATEVER INSULT YOU LIKE HERE!

Except it wouldn't kill it.
Saying that having this option would kill the reason for having cosmetics is an extreme statement. There are plenty of people who buy cosmetics just for themselves. There are people who would turn the option on only during certain matches.
Saying that it kills cosmetics means you have to assume that a huge majority of people would have this on all the time.

[Keyser Soze]

AsianJoyKiller, on March 11 2013 - 01:02 PM, said:

Akaon, on March 11 2013 - 12:46 PM, said:

So we let people pay for a new chassis so you can remove it. What's the point_ You can barely see your own mech, the whole idea is that others can see it.

You understand this is an option, and not everyone will use it, yes_
Plenty of people, myself included, would end up seeing your fancy paint and chassis, just not everyone.

AJK its not really about fancy paint for me TBH...I play against very skilled players most of the time and if changing the head on my mech to something other than the default gives me an edge of deception even for a second I will take full advantage of it. I do agree that possibly in Tourny format that this would be a useful tool....but to make it game wide I strongly disagree...it is a part of what makes this game cool IMO....and for your proponents It needs to be said that this function has nothing to do with making the game more or less complex or deep.....its combat and a true warrior looks for any advantage over his adversary....you don't pay for stronger gunz because that in fact would be PTW...so cosmetics are what people have to whine about at this point( Not you because your point was valid IMO) This is happening because they get owned by a smart pilot who changed his look so that he would not be so easy to pick up on....That is kind of what your first statement was turned into as an argument throughout this thread...at least in my point of view...I just want freedom in the choices I make in my mechs look and feel based on the play style and whatever the hell I feel like!

I may offend many people in my time in this game and I dont care....It is hard not to say something when most of the time all I read is whining about this being OP or that and this is too hard and I died because the other player had this mech or that one.....ENOUGH ALREADY.....GET SOME F...ING SKILLS!

Edited by Keyser Soze, March 11 2013 - 01:46 PM.

[Osune]

AsianJoyKiller, on March 11 2013 - 01:15 PM, said:

Saying that it kills cosmetics means you have to assume that a huge majority of people would have this on all the time.

I think it's quite save to assume this.
Considering the natural laziness of mankind and the ( kinda rhetorical ) question why to give yourself a malus in any match.

[ShadowWarg]

I think it takes more away from gameplay more than anything else. A lot of us say that Hawken is more of a tactical game rather than your typical FPS, and one part of tactics is deception. Isn't it partly our fault for relying to much on what the mech looks like and assuming that it one class rather than keeping the option in our minds open that it could be something completely different_

[AsianJoyKiller]

ShadowWarg, on March 11 2013 - 02:26 PM, said:

I think it takes more away from gameplay more than anything else. A lot of us say that Hawken is more of a tactical game rather than your typical FPS, and one part of tactics is deception. Isn't it partly our fault for relying to much on what the mech looks like and assuming that it one class rather than keeping the option in our minds open that it could be something completely different_

Except the deception isn't based on any sort of skill. It's not like a feint or any sort of skill based deception.
The sole requirement for the deception is having the money to buy a different chassis. Purchasing one takes no skill.

[SilentJacket]

I think that it's cool how people switch up frames, it keeps me on my toes (also, shouldn't you identify the weapon esp when we can have alt primaries_)

[Beemann]

SilentJacket, on March 11 2013 - 04:43 PM, said:

I think that it's cool how people switch up frames, it keeps me on my toes (also, shouldn't you identify the weapon esp when we can have alt primaries_)

1. This option doesn't stop you from switching up frames. At. All.
2. This option doesnt stop you from being kept on your toes. At. All.
3. Lemme know how well you can identify a primary on someone at mid-long range boosting around in the middle of a teamfight, especially when there's overlap in some primaries. Additionally, let me know how new players will immediately be able to figure out the visual distinction between every primary in the game

[KaszaWspraju]

It is very simple. People will turn on this option because it will be easier for them to play. Most players will do it. It will be less motivation to buy mech chassis.

Edited by KaszaWspraju, March 11 2013 - 05:12 PM.

[SilentJacket]

KaszaWspraju, on March 11 2013 - 05:12 PM, said:

It is very simple. People will turn on this option because it will be easier for them to play. Most players will do it. It will be less motivation to buy mech chassis.

I wanted to avoid the monetary reasons, but that's pretty much it

chassis swapping is something you spend money on, removing that just removes profit, and is it really such a huge deal_

[AsianJoyKiller]

SilentJacket, on March 11 2013 - 05:23 PM, said:

KaszaWspraju, on March 11 2013 - 05:12 PM, said:

It is very simple. People will turn on this option because it will be easier for them to play. Most players will do it. It will be less motivation to buy mech chassis.

I wanted to avoid the monetary reasons, but that's pretty much it

chassis swapping is something you spend money on, removing that just removes profit, and is it really such a huge deal_

Can you give me some detail on just how much profit will suffer_

[SilentJacket]

no I didn't want to go into hard data, because I really do have better ways to spend my time, which is why I tried not to bring it up.

I'm serious though, is it such a huge issue that it would warrant an entire re-coding of the way the game renders objects_

[Beemann]

Showing default models has been a thing since the 90's and has been done on other UE3 titles. Do you have proof that it would be impossible/require re-coding for Adhesive to do it_
Additionally you cant go into the hard data, because there really is none, which is why Asian asked about it in the first place I imagine

[AsianJoyKiller]

SilentJacket, on March 11 2013 - 06:01 PM, said:

no I didn't want to go into hard data, because I really do have better ways to spend my time, which is why I tried not to bring it up.

I'm serious though, is it such a huge issue that it would warrant an entire re-coding of the way the game renders objects_

You, or rather people on your side of the argument, have made the claim that this function would hurt profits from cosmetics.
I'd like to see proof that backs this claim.

[SilentJacket]

can I see proof that body swapping is as horrible as you guys seem to make it out_

[ShadowWarg]

AsianJoyKiller, on March 11 2013 - 04:41 PM, said:

ShadowWarg, on March 11 2013 - 02:26 PM, said:

I think it takes more away from gameplay more than anything else. A lot of us say that Hawken is more of a tactical game rather than your typical FPS, and one part of tactics is deception. Isn't it partly our fault for relying to much on what the mech looks like and assuming that it one class rather than keeping the option in our minds open that it could be something completely different_

Except the deception isn't based on any sort of skill. It's not like a feint or any sort of skill based deception.
The sole requirement for the deception is having the money to buy a different chassis. Purchasing one takes no skill.

Yes you are right, a player shouldn't have an advantage over another just because they dished out some money to make their mech look a particular way. You said that deception isn't a skill, and you are partly correct in that we are talking about the "look" of the mech confusing others, but then lets move one step further. Say that someone buys a zerker and gives it an infiltrator look, they both have AR's but different secondaries. The guy with the zerker finds an opponent and CHOOSES not to use the TOW until he absolutely has to, thus throwing the other guy off guard when he does. Does a deliberate action like this still not qualify as skill or tactics_ (there is also the holo, but thats not what we are talking about) If you say "no" that's alright. However "Observation" is a skill. An action like this would only work once against an experienced player and most likely only in the first few minutes of the match. After that, for the rest of the match its a useless tactic. Even more experienced players can spot that the mech was actually a zerker just by paying attention to what weapons it had. Observation is a skill that you, myself and many other experienced players have developed so we don't fall pray so easily to something as simple as a body swap. If you give the option to players to force the default bodies to render, not only does that give them a handicap (a small one but a handicap non the less) but you take away the players ability to develop that skill. Yes its a toggleable option, but you can't say that they wont ever switch it off, and you are also delaying them the ability to develop that observation skill for the period of time that they have it on.

Its almost like changing the difficulty settings in a game, but for an online game such as this one the difficulty should be determined but the players (both the individual playing who has to develop their skills and by the people he/she goes against)

I remember a post a while back about some people claiming it was easier to do things such as see cloaked infiltrators better depending on their graphic settings. Whether you think this is relevant to the discussion at hand or not is completely your choice, but me personally see this as the same thing and don't think this or forcing default rendering is fair to the others playing.

(I apologize for any grammar mistakes I honestly didn't mean to type out such a long winded mini essay)

Edited by ShadowWarg, March 11 2013 - 07:21 PM.

[PlagueDoctor]

Maybe a symbol displayed next to the enemies' health bar representing their class_

[SilentJacket]

PlagueDoctor, on March 11 2013 - 07:03 PM, said:

Maybe a symbol displayed next to the enemies' health bar representing their class_

that might work actually