188 replies to this topic

[Gookywun]

Recently i thought of undertaking some tests that have been on my mind with one of Hawkens most contriversial weapon's, the EOC Repeater.

The EOC Repeater is a primary weapon in Hawken. The gun fires a string of sticky explosive pucks. Charging the weapon will fire multiple pucks simultaneously when the trigger is released. - Hawken Wiki.

EOC Repeater Stats :

Damage: 90 contact + mines (180 charged, 30/puck)
30 contact (60 charged, 10/puck)
60 mines (120 charged, 20/puck)  

Rate of Fire: 0.67 (0.33 charged

Effective Range: N/A

Heat Rate: N/A due to recent patch.

DPS: 60 contact + mines
20 contact
40 mines

Level Bonuses

Level 1: +1.5 Seconds Mine Lifetime (6.5 seconds)

Level 2: -3% Heat Generated (4.48)

Level 3: +1.5 Seconds Mine Lifetime (8 seconds)

- Hawken Wiki.

Now that the damage potential is out of the way i think it was needed to test the projectile speed of the EOC and also it's sound animations / detections on other mechs which i feel are the most important factors to take in of this weapon.

Below i have posted a video of our tests, i will also say that during these tests our sound optimisations were maxxed to ensure perfect results but we also had to take into conderation the lag imputs when testing the weapons used.








We also tested the EOC with Hawkens other projectile weapons and here were the results.

Projectiles :

Primary :

Rev - GL (Slower)
REDOX-02 (Close)
Heat cannon - Charged ( Slightly Faster )
Heat Cannon - Uncharged ( Slightly Faster )

Secondarys :

TOW (Close)
Grenade Launcher (Slower)
Hellfires (Slower)
Corsair (Slower)

Items :

EMP (Slower)
Detonator (Slower)
HE Charge (Slower)

So from what we have gathered from these tests is that the EOC is a SILENT, FAST and DEADLY killer, easily the scariest weapon IN THE GAME that outperforms any of it's primary brothers ( in nearly both damage AND speed ) and can still catch up to it's secondary "superiors". It's apparent that there is either a sound bug or that the EOC cannot be heard charging up when going against the enemy and that you can ONLY hear the pucks being fired from the weapon since there is no hit detection when being hit by the player using the EOC itself even if it's right infront of you.

(OPINION) I think that this weapon is severely overpowered and needs a lot of work to be accepted into any kind of competitive play for this game and i hope you guys can reflect on what we have gathered and shown in this topic to take in for future reminders of how a game can be seen as "balanced" and "unbalanced".

Special thanks to Pure_Amazing and Umbre for testing.

Edited by Gookywun, July 18 2013 - 06:45 AM.

[Sylhiri]

Question, what's it's charge time for a full charge_

[Gookywun]

Sylhiri, on July 17 2013 - 02:18 PM, said:

Question, what's it's charge time for a full charge_

Think it's slightly higher than the Heat Cannon but not by a large margin, you can check for yourself on the comparison video.

Edited by Gookywun, July 17 2013 - 02:30 PM.

[Sylhiri]

So do you have any suggestions about balancing this weapon among the Heat and Flak_ You stated that it is severely overpowered so I'm wondering what you would change to put it on Flak or Heat's effectiveness.

[Xacius]

To claim that the weapon is severely overpowered is an overstatement.  Such a statement must be made relative to the other weapons in the game.  The Slug Rifle, Flak Cannon, T-32 Bolt, Sabot, and MIRV are of the caliber that I would describe as "Overpowered."  

The EOC_  Not so much.  There are elements of the weapon that may need to be modified, such as the silent on-hit concern, but the weapon is no where near overpowered.

It's a short-medium range weapon that damages the user in very close range.  If utilized properly, the mines can cover an area and section off key points in a confined setting, forcing opponents to focus on maneuvering around the mines or risk damage.  But the refire rate for 6 mines is incredibly slow. Compare that to the DPS of other primary weapons, and you'll find that the EOC falls short of even the SA Hawkins.

Edited by Xacius, July 17 2013 - 02:42 PM.

[Gookywun]

Xacius, on July 17 2013 - 02:38 PM, said:

To claim that the weapon is severely overpowered is an overstatement.  Such a statement must be made relative to the other weapons in the game.  The Slug Rifle, Flak Cannon, T-32 Bolt, Sabot, and MIRV are of the caliber that I would describe as "Overpowered."  

The EOC_  Not so much.  There are elements of the weapon that may need to be modified, such as the silent on-hit concern, but the weapon is no where near overpowered.

In it's current state i stay by my statement being that it IS severely overpowered no doubt about it.

[Gookywun]

Sylhiri, on July 17 2013 - 02:36 PM, said:

So do you have any suggestions about balancing this weapon among the Heat and Flak_ You stated that it is severely overpowered so I'm wondering what you would change to put it on Flak or Heat's effectiveness.

It's hard balancing such a weapon as the EOC because of it's design, IMO it needs a new design but the games whole level of burst needs balancing at some point and shouldn't be balanced around ONE weapon.

[Pure_Amazing]

Xacius, on July 17 2013 - 02:38 PM, said:

It's a short-medium range weapon that damages the user in very close range.

Apart from it can go all the way across the map and still do maximum damage...

[Xacius]

Gookywun, on July 17 2013 - 02:40 PM, said:

Xacius, on July 17 2013 - 02:38 PM, said:

To claim that the weapon is severely overpowered is an overstatement.  Such a statement must be made relative to the other weapons in the game.  The Slug Rifle, Flak Cannon, T-32 Bolt, Sabot, and MIRV are of the caliber that I would describe as "Overpowered."  

The EOC_  Not so much.  There are elements of the weapon that may need to be modified, such as the silent on-hit concern, but the weapon is no where near overpowered.

In it's current state i stay by my statement being that it IS severely overpowered no doubt about it.

You're one of the only players in this game that holds such a sentiment.  I've been in matches with you, and you're primarily a Flak Scout user.  I'd wager that EOC's give you a hard time.  I'd like to see your reasoning as to why the weapon is overpowered, as well as your proposed changes for it.

[Sylhiri]

Pure_Amazing, on July 17 2013 - 02:43 PM, said:

Apart from it can go all the way across the map and still do maximum damage...

Did you guys test how long it takes to go across a small/medium/large sized map_

[Xacius]

Pure_Amazing, on July 17 2013 - 02:43 PM, said:

Xacius, on July 17 2013 - 02:38 PM, said:

It's a short-medium range weapon that damages the user in very close range.

Apart from it can go all the way across the map and still do maximum damage...

So can a Rev-GL grenade or uncharged heat cannon shot, but good luck landing those at long range.

[Pure_Amazing]

Xacius, on July 17 2013 - 02:45 PM, said:

Gookywun, on July 17 2013 - 02:40 PM, said:

Xacius, on July 17 2013 - 02:38 PM, said:

To claim that the weapon is severely overpowered is an overstatement.  Such a statement must be made relative to the other weapons in the game.  The Slug Rifle, Flak Cannon, T-32 Bolt, Sabot, and MIRV are of the caliber that I would describe as "Overpowered."  

The EOC_  Not so much.  There are elements of the weapon that may need to be modified, such as the silent on-hit concern, but the weapon is no where near overpowered.

In it's current state i stay by my statement being that it IS severely overpowered no doubt about it.

You're one of the only players in this game that holds such a sentiment.  I've been in matches with you, and you're primarily a Flak Scout user.  I'd wager that EOC's give you a hard time.  I'd like to see your reasoning as to why the weapon is overpowered, as well as your proposed changes for it.

Only one_ I don't think so. Did you like the EOC after the Raider patch_

[KejiGoto]

Some aspects that seem to be left out of the discussion is things like spread which makes dealing direct damage a massive pain over a distance and also there is a gap between pucks meaning even a full volley can only deal partial damage if someone dodges quickly enough. Other weapons like Heat Cannon, TOW, Grenade Launcher, and so forth only need to connect one shot to deal their full potential where the EOC Repeater needs to connect with every puck.

I do agree the sound issues need to be fixed and the sooner those are addressed the better. The lack of hit detection is very annoying but players should be paying attention to their health at all times. Also in the video the sound is very low making it hard to properly judge things in the sound department.

Damage wise and how it is used I don't think it is overpowered. It could definitely use a little more tweaking, mines shouldn't last as long as they do because being able to get three volleys on the ground is a little ridiculous, but when you look at the other factors I pointed out above it becomes a little more apparent why the EOC can do as much damage as it does. It is a high skill ceiling weapon and rewards those who take the time to master it so they can achieve it's maximum potential.

No one weapon fires like the EOC where you have to get a string of shots to connect in order to deal the full amount of damage. Flak, MIRV, and so forth fire a burst of pellets but those are grouped together, the EOC fires a string of pucks one at a time. Also lacking a self detonation puts primaries above the EOC because they can be fired around corners for AOE damage and allow for more control.

[Gookywun]

Xacius, on July 17 2013 - 02:45 PM, said:

Gookywun, on July 17 2013 - 02:40 PM, said:

Xacius, on July 17 2013 - 02:38 PM, said:

To claim that the weapon is severely overpowered is an overstatement.  Such a statement must be made relative to the other weapons in the game.  The Slug Rifle, Flak Cannon, T-32 Bolt, Sabot, and MIRV are of the caliber that I would describe as "Overpowered."  

The EOC_  Not so much.  There are elements of the weapon that may need to be modified, such as the silent on-hit concern, but the weapon is no where near overpowered.

In it's current state i stay by my statement being that it IS severely overpowered no doubt about it.

You're one of the only players in this game that holds such a sentiment.  I've been in matches with you, and you're primarily a Flak Scout user.  I'd wager that EOC's give you a hard time.  I'd like to see your reasoning as to why the weapon is overpowered, as well as your proposed changes for it.

Sorry Xacius you know too little to make me have to be reasonable to you and i haven't touched Flak Scout since the first 2 weeks of Open Beta, you have obviously never played against me seeing as i am based on UK servers too.

[Gookywun]

Sylhiri, on July 17 2013 - 02:45 PM, said:

Pure_Amazing, on July 17 2013 - 02:43 PM, said:

Apart from it can go all the way across the map and still do maximum damage...

Did you guys test how long it takes to go across a small/medium/large sized map_

We only needed to know Mid range potential and that has already shown us it's speed, it's made to "think" that it looks like it's going slower but it's just the fire rate of the pucks themselves... it's on par to the fastest projectile weapon in the game.

[Pure_Amazing]

Xacius, on July 17 2013 - 02:45 PM, said:

Pure_Amazing, on July 17 2013 - 02:43 PM, said:

Xacius, on July 17 2013 - 02:38 PM, said:

It's a short-medium range weapon that damages the user in very close range.

Apart from it can go all the way across the map and still do maximum damage...

So can a Rev-GL grenade or uncharged heat cannon shot, but good luck landing those at long range.

The pucks barely spread thus making it easy to shoot across the map added with the fact they are mines, making the weapon a bit of fuzzy bunny to be up against. Sure close range I might go with that but a longer ranges no shouldn't be done.

Edited by Pure_Amazing, July 17 2013 - 02:50 PM.

[Xacius]

Pure_Amazing, on July 17 2013 - 02:46 PM, said:

Xacius, on July 17 2013 - 02:45 PM, said:

Gookywun, on July 17 2013 - 02:40 PM, said:

Xacius, on July 17 2013 - 02:38 PM, said:

To claim that the weapon is severely overpowered is an overstatement.  Such a statement must be made relative to the other weapons in the game.  The Slug Rifle, Flak Cannon, T-32 Bolt, Sabot, and MIRV are of the caliber that I would describe as "Overpowered."  

The EOC_  Not so much.  There are elements of the weapon that may need to be modified, such as the silent on-hit concern, but the weapon is no where near overpowered.

In it's current state i stay by my statement being that it IS severely overpowered no doubt about it.

You're one of the only players in this game that holds such a sentiment.  I've been in matches with you, and you're primarily a Flak Scout user.  I'd wager that EOC's give you a hard time.  I'd like to see your reasoning as to why the weapon is overpowered, as well as your proposed changes for it.

Only one_ I don't think so. Did you like the EOC after the Raider patch_

Read my statement.  I said "one of the only," not "only one."

The EOC was incredibly overpowered after the Raider patch.  Mines dealt 135 damage and a full charged EOC unleashed a whopping 270 if all the mines hit.  We're not talking about that EOC, though.  We're talking about the current EOC, which deals 33% less damage than the aforementioned.  

Relative to the other weapons in the game, the EOC isn't overpowered.  Fix the weapons I mentioned in my first post, then come back and check up on the EOC.

[Leonhardt]

I like that you guys did testing for sound and projectile speed, I don't think the EOC is "severely overpowered." I am in favor of a slight damage nerf, but beyond that I'm skeptical. I would like to point out that 4 pucks doing direct damage do more than a fully charged heat cannon. So for some perspective with the EOC you only have to land 3 pucks to do the same damage as a fully charged heat cannon and charging 3 pucks is a lot faster than charging the heat cannon.

[KejiGoto]

Pure_Amazing, on July 17 2013 - 02:49 PM, said:

Xacius, on July 17 2013 - 02:45 PM, said:

Pure_Amazing, on July 17 2013 - 02:43 PM, said:

Xacius, on July 17 2013 - 02:38 PM, said:

It's a short-medium range weapon that damages the user in very close range.

Apart from it can go all the way across the map and still do maximum damage...

So can a Rev-GL grenade or uncharged heat cannon shot, but good luck landing those at long range.

The pucks barely spread thus making it easy to shoot across the map added with the fact they are mines, making the weapon a bit of fuzzy bunny to be up against. Sure close range I might go with that but a longer ranges no shouldn't be done.

There's actually a fair amount of spread the further the pucks go out. You can even see in the video when they are firing the Heat and EOC side by side that over a short distance they create a line up the wall due to the spread.

As someone who has been playing EOC Infiltrator for quite some time now nailing someone from across the map is very hard to do and in most cases utterly pointless. Between spread and shot delay chances are your target will be long gone before the EOC pucks arrive. Even doing something like trying to bump a sniper off a high point on Origin or Bazaar is pretty difficult to do with the EOC at a distance.

[Xacius]

Gookywun, on July 17 2013 - 02:47 PM, said:

Xacius, on July 17 2013 - 02:45 PM, said:

Gookywun, on July 17 2013 - 02:40 PM, said:

Xacius, on July 17 2013 - 02:38 PM, said:

To claim that the weapon is severely overpowered is an overstatement.  Such a statement must be made relative to the other weapons in the game.  The Slug Rifle, Flak Cannon, T-32 Bolt, Sabot, and MIRV are of the caliber that I would describe as "Overpowered."  

The EOC_  Not so much.  There are elements of the weapon that may need to be modified, such as the silent on-hit concern, but the weapon is no where near overpowered.

In it's current state i stay by my statement being that it IS severely overpowered no doubt about it.

You're one of the only players in this game that holds such a sentiment.  I've been in matches with you, and you're primarily a Flak Scout user.  I'd wager that EOC's give you a hard time.  I'd like to see your reasoning as to why the weapon is overpowered, as well as your proposed changes for it.

Sorry Xacius you know too little to make me have to be reasonable to you and i haven't touched Flak Scout since the first 2 weeks of Open Beta, you have obviously never played against me seeing as i am based on UK servers too.

Know too little_

/letthepissingcontestbegin

I was in games with you last week.  You were playing on East servers with reasonable ping (roughly the same ping that I get, around 120-130).  In the three games we played, you used Flak Scout.  It was level 19.  For the first two games, you received 2nd place.  First game I used Flak Scout (first place), in the second I used AR Infiltrator (1st place).  You won the third by 150xp as I was using my AR Infiltrator.  

To claim that I, a player who you have little to no experience playing, "knows too little," is an overstatement, much like your EOC complaint.  
Don't start this game with me.  You will lose.  

I have over 600 hours of experience in Hawken starting with the 2nd closed Alpha in September of last year.  OhBos and I have been dominating with the EOC since the nerf of the Heat Cannon back in March.  I have yet to see another player that compares to either him or me with the EOC.  

You have yet to back up your concerns with reasonable evidence.  Against unskilled opponents, the EOC dominates.  Against more skilled foes, however, the EOC must be used properly in order to be effective.

Based on what I've seen, our pings are around the same on US East.  Let's have some 1v1's to determine which one of us "knows too little."  You use the EOC, and I'll play Reaper, Flak Scout, Mini-Flak Scout, Cupcake, or even the CR-T recruit.  Then we'll see what you have to say about balance, or the weapon being overpowered.

Edited by Xacius, July 17 2013 - 03:02 PM.