HAWKEN servers are up and our latest minor update is live!
Forgot Password_ SUPPORT REDEEM CODE

Jump to content


What's up with the EOC_ ( The EOC Repeater revealed )

Beta Game Project Video Community Announcement

  • Please log in to reply
188 replies to this topic

#21 Gookywun

Gookywun

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 502 posts
  • LocationWest Midlands, UK

Posted July 17 2013 - 03:00 PM

View PostKejiGoto, on July 17 2013 - 02:47 PM, said:

Some aspects that seem to be left out of the discussion is things like spread which makes dealing direct damage a massive pain over a distance and also there is a gap between pucks meaning even a full volley can only deal partial damage if someone dodges quickly enough. Other weapons like Heat Cannon, TOW, Grenade Launcher, and so forth only need to connect one shot to deal their full potential where the EOC Repeater needs to connect with every puck.

Seeing as you can place a rediculous amount of pucks on the ground at such short bursts it honestly isn't a pain at short / mid range, also with the current RoF it's practically hit scan at short range. You can't tell somebody to dodge either, seeing as they are "sticky mines" placing them on the ground on people feet made them detonate instantly giving people no room to dodge or run.

I do agree the sound issues need to be fixed and the sooner those are addressed the better. The lack of hit detection is very annoying but players should be paying attention to their health at all times. Also in the video the sound is very low making it hard to properly judge things in the sound department.

Sound issues are my biggest problem and the sound in the video is fine since i maxxed it out to ensure this, it's the sound of the EOC itself that makes it seem so quiet.

Damage wise and how it is used I don't think it is overpowered. It could definitely use a little more tweaking, mines shouldn't last as long as they do because being able to get three volleys on the ground is a little ridiculous, but when you look at the other factors I pointed out above it becomes a little more apparent why the EOC can do as much damage as it does. It is a high skill ceiling weapon and rewards those who take the time to master it so they can achieve it's maximum potential.

Mine's not lasting as long as they do would make it even more overpowered making mines detonate pretty much as soon as they hit the ground, Damage wise compared to other burst weapons it is very overpowered dealing more than any secondary... as a primary. I don't even agree the skill ceiling is that high either, it's an extremely easy weapon to use when given to player that are fimilar with the game, to new players it may take some time but with the amount of high players that are abusing it's power it can get out of control especially when theres more than 1 on the field.


No one weapon fires like the EOC where you have to get a string of shots to connect in order to deal the full amount of damage. Flak, MIRV, and so forth fire a burst of pellets but those are grouped together, the EOC fires a string of pucks one at a time. Also lacking a self detonation puts primaries above the EOC because they can be fired around corners for AOE damage and allow for more control.

Doesn't beat the fact that it is still an incredibly strong burst damage weapon and is pretty rediculous in the hands of players that know how to abuse it.

Edited by Gookywun, July 17 2013 - 03:08 PM.

Posted Image

   http://www.twitch.tv/gookywun

  http://www.twitch.tv/lancersofficial

Dubbed 'Angela Merkel - Emperor of the Union' by ReachH.


#22 Sylhiri

Sylhiri

    Advanced Member

  • Full Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 3,135 posts

Posted July 17 2013 - 03:00 PM

Well, there goes an interesting topic...

[13:14] <nonsiccus_work> uh oh

there's gravy in my keyboard

----------------------------------------------------------------------

[11:18] <+shosca> if you wanna play ar, go play zerker
[11:18] <Hyginos> and if you want to play zerker, go smc
[11:19] <someone> if you want to play sustain, please go and die in hell


#23 Gookywun

Gookywun

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 502 posts
  • LocationWest Midlands, UK

Posted July 17 2013 - 03:03 PM

Comment Redacted.

Edited by Gookywun, July 17 2013 - 06:31 PM.

Posted Image

   http://www.twitch.tv/gookywun

  http://www.twitch.tv/lancersofficial

Dubbed 'Angela Merkel - Emperor of the Union' by ReachH.


#24 Xacius

Xacius

    The Saltan

  • Full Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,889 posts
  • LocationOther games, waiting for dev beacon

Posted July 17 2013 - 03:05 PM

View PostGookywun, on July 17 2013 - 03:03 PM, said:

I'm sorry i can't respond to you anymore, you're way too obnoxious and if you don't think the EOC is overpowered that clearly shows you know nothing.

"I can't respond to you anymore because your opinion differs from my own and I don't like you so that means you're wrong."
- Gookywun. July 17, 2013.  

Way to throw a reasonable debate out the window.  Enjoy your opinions.

Edited by Xacius, July 17 2013 - 03:10 PM.

High MMR (2700+) livestream (scroll down on twitch page for in-depth bio and PC specs).   Check out my Steam Guide!

Exeon is fuzzy bunny bad.

Currently inactive.  Estimated return: TPG 2

#25 angryhampster

angryhampster

    Advanced Member

  • Full Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 3,349 posts
  • Location

Posted July 17 2013 - 03:07 PM

when i start playing the raider 24/7.  people are gonna go on forums and ask to nerf the secondary weapon.

nobody panics when im dominating on my CR-T.   =(

Gookywun, what is ur rating btw.   j/w.

Edited by angryhampster, July 17 2013 - 03:08 PM.

    --[font=arial, sans-serif](◕_◕)    [/font]
Posted Image

#26 KejiGoto

KejiGoto

    Scruffy Lookin' Nerf Herder

  • Full Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,219 posts

Posted July 17 2013 - 03:16 PM

View PostGookywun, on July 17 2013 - 03:00 PM, said:

View PostKejiGoto, on July 17 2013 - 02:47 PM, said:

Some aspects that seem to be left out of the discussion is things like spread which makes dealing direct damage a massive pain over a distance and also there is a gap between pucks meaning even a full volley can only deal partial damage if someone dodges quickly enough. Other weapons like Heat Cannon, TOW, Grenade Launcher, and so forth only need to connect one shot to deal their full potential where the EOC Repeater needs to connect with every puck.

Seeing as you can place a rediculous amount of pucks on the ground at such short bursts it honestly isn't a pain at short / mid range, also with the current RoF it's practically hit scan at short range. You can't tell somebody to dodge either, seeing as they are "sticky mines" placing them on the ground on people feet made them detonate instantly giving people no room to dodge or run.

I do agree the sound issues need to be fixed and the sooner those are addressed the better. The lack of hit detection is very annoying but players should be paying attention to their health at all times. Also in the video the sound is very low making it hard to properly judge things in the sound department.

Sound issues are my biggest problem and the sound in the video is fine since i maxxed it out to ensure this, it's the sound of the EOC itself that makes it seem so quiet.

Damage wise and how it is used I don't think it is overpowered. It could definitely use a little more tweaking, mines shouldn't last as long as they do because being able to get three volleys on the ground is a little ridiculous, but when you look at the other factors I pointed out above it becomes a little more apparent why the EOC can do as much damage as it does. It is a high skill ceiling weapon and rewards those who take the time to master it so they can achieve it's maximum potential.

Mine's not lasting as long as they do would make it even more overpowered making mines detonate pretty much as soon as they hit the ground, Damage wise compared to other burst weapons it is very overpowered dealing more than any secondary... as a primary. I don't even agree the skill ceiling is that high either, it's an extremely easy weapon to use when given to player that are fimilar with the game, to new players it may take some time but with the amount of high players that are abusing it's power it can get out of control especially when theres more than 1 on the field.


No one weapon fires like the EOC where you have to get a string of shots to connect in order to deal the full amount of damage. Flak, MIRV, and so forth fire a burst of pellets but those are grouped together, the EOC fires a string of pucks one at a time. Also lacking a self detonation puts primaries above the EOC because they can be fired around corners for AOE damage and allow for more control.

Doesn't beat the fact that it is still an incredibly strong burst damage weapon and is pretty rediculous in the hands of players that know how to abuse it.

1.) When the mines are placed on the ground or any surface they do less damage than a full connect. They are also very visible on the ground making the job of avoiding them somewhat easy. Yes you can fire directly at someone's feet but you will get reduced damage and you might not get every puck. I've done this before and seen people walk away with mines still left on the ground and they've taken very little damage because only a small amount actually connected. Also even at close range the EOC isn't close to hitscan and you also risk damaging yourself in CQC.

You also may have missed the part where I said the mine time needs to be reduced to cut down on the amount of mines on the ground.

2.) The sound isn't fine in the video. I had to turn my speakers up over half way to full volume to hear simple things like charging the Heat Cannon or your mech walking. I generally play Hawken just fine at quarter volume but your video is close to being silent.

3.) Making mines explode faster wouldn't result in more damage being dealt because mines explode when people walk over them. If there is no one near by to set them off then no one is going to take damage if they suddenly explode due to time running out. In case you're not aware but there has been a patch which has greatly reduced the amount of feathering explosions do meaning damage doesn't carry very far. If you're not close enough trip the EOC mines then you're not going to take much damage when they explode due to the timer.

You complain about the amount of pucks that someone can lay down but then complain that the damage would be ridiculous if the timer was decreased. So how do you fix this issue then_ You certainly can't limit the amount of times the EOC can fire because that would be incredibly stupid and wouldn't make much sense at all.

The EOC is also a very high skill weapon as the user has to adjust for travel time, spread, and so forth. I see Infiltrators, Raiders, and Rocketeers all the time packing the EOC and they are miserable with it. These same players handle themselves very well with other mechs too so it isn't like they are new to the game or anything like that. The EOC does a great amount of damage when you connect with every puck and you should be rewarded with a good burst of damage for connecting with every puck. As I said earlier no other weapon has that sort of requirement.

4.) Every weapon in the game for the most part is very dangerous in the hands of a highly skilled player. The damage isn't ridiculous for the requirements to get that much damage as you have to land every puck fully charge directly onto the target to achieve the highest damage amount. Weapons like TOW, Grenade Launcher, Heat Cannon, Sabot Rifle, Slug Rifle, and KLA only need to connect one shot to deal their maximum damage.

And yes you can dodge a partial EOC blast, I see people side dodge constantly when I fire a string at them at medium distance. I get the sound effect that I connected with them, I see them take damage, and I also see mines on the wall right where they used to be because the the EOC Repeater fires a string of pucks and not a cluster like Flak, Mini Flak, and MIRV.

Posted Image


#27 Immortal009

Immortal009

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 66 posts
  • LocationMy Own Little World...

Posted July 17 2013 - 03:35 PM

View PostKejiGoto, on July 17 2013 - 03:16 PM, said:

Every weapon in the game for the most part is very dangerous in the hands of a highly skilled player.

This forum needs a banner at the top of it with these words on it. :)

#28 N0stalgia

N0stalgia

    Advanced Member

  • Full Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 570 posts
  • LocationSan Diego, California

Posted July 17 2013 - 03:39 PM

I am glad someone finally put this all together in a nice package. I also feel that the EOC is overpowered as well, but not obnoxiously so. I'm with Leonhardt in arguing for a slight damage nerf and my argument would be the same as his. I base my comparison with the HEAT cannon, which is in a pretty good place right now balance-wise (despite that blasted 10% nerf across the board).

EOC advantages over the HEAT cannon:
1. Potential for double the damage and a lethal alpha strike.
2. Potential for similar damage with faster firing rate and lower heat generation.
3. Potential for area denial for 7-10 seconds via mines.
4. No hit-detection sound or indicator (silent and invisible).
5. Potential for spam via weapon spread and mines. (Spray and pray is viable when large groups of enemies are clustered together.)
6. Even if you miss, you can still hit for a portion via mines. (Everyone aims at feet with the EOC anyway).
7. Lower risk, higher reward.

EOC disadvantages:
1. Slightly slower projectile speed, but not by much.
2. Not as precise.
3. Slower charge time.
4. Not as reliable (damage-wise).

EOC definately needs reliable hit detection (same as all the other weapons) and I think it could use a slight damage nerf. You have to at least question why most of the HEAT Infils migrated over to the EOC and why just about every 25 Raider is using EOC.

Happen to miss a bit_ No, problem. Shoot at the feet and you'll still do partial damage. See someone repairing_ No problem. Kill them with your alpha strike. Group of enemies_ No problem. Stay in cover and shoot in their general direction to rack up the kills. Need to defend the AA_ No problem. Just spray mines all over the openings so that nobody dares to come inside. If it wasn't so devastating damage-wise, it would be a versatile weapon that you would need to be smart to use. Right now, it's just too easy and too damaging.

And for all those people that say it has a higher skill cap.... no. It USED to, before it was easy to use. When enemies actually had to literally touch the mines for them to pop. When the projectiles were slower and farther apart. Learning the timing for HEAT cannon leads at range with both charged/uncharged... firing an uncharged follow-up shot.... HEAT had a higher learning curve for me. And it took a lot longer for me to get really lethal with it.

Edited by N0stalgia, July 17 2013 - 03:46 PM.

Call me Nos.

#29 Beemann

Beemann

    Sentient Wall-of-Text

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 2,974 posts
  • LocationVancouver, BC

Posted July 17 2013 - 03:49 PM

So to boil down Xacius' arguments here:

The EOC is fine because it got nerfed. Lets of course ignore that that 30 point drop still let it be higher than the original damage values of several secondaries that received 20-35 point nerfs

The EOC is fine because not that many players (in Xacius`experience) feel that it`s broken. Lets ignore both the fact that this doesn`t prove anything and that Xacius has simply been ignoring many of the complaints about EOC classes

The EOC is fine because it has low DPS. Lets ignore the fact that the current king is burst damage, and the EOC wins that hands down. The pervasiveness of cover in Hawken heaps advantage after advantage onto people who can stack alpha strikes. DPS means pretty much nothing when you only have to be exposed for about a second, and can deal more burst than your opponent can DPS anyway

Also, other things that Xacius said that are wrong:
The Bolt is better than the EOC (poor man`s flak > secondary weapon in a primary slot_ Okay bro)
The REVGL can hit across the map (protip: it has max range)
That the EOC did 270 damage before the nerf (it did 210)
Suggested that 1v1's with EU players decide balance

And the number 1 ridiculous comment made by Xacius is....
Suggesting that he's trying to have a reasonable debate

Edited by Beemann, July 17 2013 - 03:50 PM.

Posted Image

C-Class Swagger
Ballin' and Brawlin'
Cloakin' and Smokin'

#30 Xacius

Xacius

    The Saltan

  • Full Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,889 posts
  • LocationOther games, waiting for dev beacon

Posted July 17 2013 - 03:50 PM

View PostN0stalgia, on July 17 2013 - 03:39 PM, said:

And for all those people that say it has a higher skill cap.... no. It USED to, before it was easy to use. When enemies actually had to literally touch the mines for them to pop. When the projectiles were slower and farther apart. Learning the timing for HEAT cannon leads at range with both charged/uncharged... firing an uncharged follow-up shot.... HEAT had a higher learning curve for me. And it took a lot longer for me to get really lethal with it.

I like the points you've made.  I'd agree that the EOC could use a slight damage nerf and hit sounds if the other weapons were already balanced.  This is not the case.  I think we need to wait and see what's coming from the next patch before we demand balance changes.

Against a skilled opponent, the EOC is hard to use.  And you have to remember that the player risks damaging themselves by stepping over their own pucks as they're about to explode.
High MMR (2700+) livestream (scroll down on twitch page for in-depth bio and PC specs).   Check out my Steam Guide!

Exeon is fuzzy bunny bad.

Currently inactive.  Estimated return: TPG 2

#31 N0stalgia

N0stalgia

    Advanced Member

  • Full Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 570 posts
  • LocationSan Diego, California

Posted July 17 2013 - 03:55 PM

Against a skilled opponent, the EOC is hard to use. Just stay in cover and fire at the map on both sides of the pillar. When they boost at you to come from above, thats when you use your alpha. If they do rush from the sides, forget about charging shots, spray and lead - and you better connect with your secondaries.

In order to have the advantage on an EOC using opponent, get the high ground. It's a big help. Hovering is dangerous.

Edited by N0stalgia, July 17 2013 - 03:59 PM.

Call me Nos.

#32 h0B0

h0B0

    Non Sequitur Leprechaun

  • Full Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 4,143 posts
  • Location[delete for trolling] --defter

Posted July 17 2013 - 03:57 PM

Thank you gookywun for the test to provide evidence to back up claims we have been making for a long time.

I have a few things to add to this topic.
1. Some of you are stating the EOC is not overpowered because it is comparable to secondaries, which in all cases except Torch and KE sabot are considerably stronger than their primary alternatives. I wouldn't mind having a primary as strong as a secondary i that secondary was balanced accordingly, which isnt the case with the MIRV, GL.....hellfires.
2. Stating that the EOC is hard to hit because of firing delay whilst ignoring the fact that those pucks stay on the ground for an excessively long amount of time, something no other weapon does.

I could say more, but this conversation is degenerating and so is my post.

I support gookywun in his test and agree the EOC needs balance fixes.

I do not support Xacius' belief it is fine, nor do i support the mentality that we should way for new content to make our feelings/observations known. Issues need to be discussed and addressed, we have no way of knowing what is coming and the possibility of those things changing the balance of the game significantly enough to make the king of burst in line with the redox for example is fairly unlikely.

Click me! I dare you.

Posted Image

View Post[HWK]HUGHES, on March 15 2013 - 08:35 PM, said:

Oh don't always listen to h0B0. Lol.


#33 Gookywun

Gookywun

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 502 posts
  • LocationWest Midlands, UK

Posted July 17 2013 - 04:01 PM

I just want to say that i made this topic mainly focusing on certain aspects of the EOC that i think are problematic and that is the sound detections for the weapon, the projectile speed and range and the puck spamming, i did not make this post to put forward how I think this weapon should be balanced in terms of DPS wise, but i have my own opinions on that i did not want this post should be about.

Edited by Gookywun, July 17 2013 - 04:20 PM.

Posted Image

   http://www.twitch.tv/gookywun

  http://www.twitch.tv/lancersofficial

Dubbed 'Angela Merkel - Emperor of the Union' by ReachH.


#34 Teljaxx

Teljaxx

    Advanced Member

  • Full Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 2,448 posts
  • LocationIn the thick of 8;;8

Posted July 17 2013 - 04:06 PM

I still think that the EOC would have worked better as a secondary weapon with a few modifications. But, I seriously doubt that will be changed at this point.

If it did 4~6 less damage per puck, and had the same sound and explosion graphic for a direct hit as the mines, I think that it would be fairly close to balanced.
Always on the move / My trigger finger itches / If it moves, shoot it!  Posted Image8;;8

#35 Conquistador

Conquistador

    Holy Roman Emperor

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,176 posts
  • LocationAt the back of the North Wind

Posted July 17 2013 - 04:08 PM

Given one of the major detriments to the EOC was reduced during the heatsink patch (I.e. it can now fire more before overheating), the weapon at the very least deserves a proportional reduction in damage. In its current state, since risk of overheating has been reduced, its total damage output before hitting that critical red line is much greater. The weapon's damage needs to be reduced accordingly to offset the buff it received to what is effectively an increased clip size.
Posted Image

#36 v009

v009

    Advanced Member

  • Full Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 379 posts

Posted July 17 2013 - 04:17 PM

Interesting findings. Maybe they could limit the number of EOC that can be laid on the ground_ For example a full charged 6 mines only and if you charge and fire again the other mines will disappear.

@Beeman: I think what xacius is saying with T-32 being better is the higher DPS it has (uncharged) and the ability to fire a lot before overheating so in organised games it well help in those long fights. Also you have to land all the puck whilst Bolt is hitscan.
Also Burst is king, yes. When playing peekaboo, although the EOC has such high burst damage you have to be exposed longer than other burst weapon user like flak scout or heat infil/scout where by the time you fire all the charged pucks the enemy will b e behind cover already.

We will just have to see how ADH will balance the weapons.
To all new Hawken Pilots! Press SPACE BAR and HOLD to enter GOD mode.

#37 Sylhiri

Sylhiri

    Advanced Member

  • Full Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 3,135 posts

Posted July 17 2013 - 04:18 PM

View PostGookywun, on July 17 2013 - 04:01 PM, said:

I just want to say that i made this topic mainly focusing on certain aspects of the EOC that i think are problematic

I have yet to see a EOC thread that takes all aspects of the EOC into consideration as they mainly focus on the damage aspect like it was some kind of boogeyman. As you said, it is a hard gun to balance so I think we should put everything on the table and really think about what we can fix to bring it in line with other weapons besides "OMFG DAT DAMAGE" *beats with nerf stick* (not saying it's happening here, yet, but it's been most of the case whenever you whisper EOC).

If it really was so simple as nerf damage then it's not that hard to balance :o

[13:14] <nonsiccus_work> uh oh

there's gravy in my keyboard

----------------------------------------------------------------------

[11:18] <+shosca> if you wanna play ar, go play zerker
[11:18] <Hyginos> and if you want to play zerker, go smc
[11:19] <someone> if you want to play sustain, please go and die in hell


#38 KejiGoto

KejiGoto

    Scruffy Lookin' Nerf Herder

  • Full Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,219 posts

Posted July 17 2013 - 04:26 PM

View Postv009, on July 17 2013 - 04:17 PM, said:

Interesting findings. Maybe they could limit the number of EOC that can be laid on the ground_ For example a full charged 6 mines only and if you charge and fire again the other mines will disappear.

@Beeman: I think what xacius is saying with T-32 being better is the higher DPS it has (uncharged) and the ability to fire a lot before overheating so in organised games it well help in those long fights. Also you have to land all the puck whilst Bolt is hitscan.
Also Burst is king, yes. When playing peekaboo, although the EOC has such high burst damage you have to be exposed longer than other burst weapon user like flak scout or heat infil/scout where by the time you fire all the charged pucks the enemy will b e behind cover already.

We will just have to see how ADH will balance the weapons.

I agree with the above when talking about burst potential and playing peekaboo with the EOC. Yes the EOC can lay mines on the ground which can cause problems but that also uses a volley and is time the user needs to spend charging the EOC again which leaves them open for a rush attack.

The EOC, at least from my stand point, is more of an ambush weapon and area denial than a straight forward dueling weapon like Flak, Heat, and so forth. You get the best potential out of it when you catch your target completely off guard which is why it is so deadly on the Infiltrator since it is the king of ambushing. The lack of hitscan or exploding on contact tends to limit how well it works in peekaboo situations.

Whenever I come across someone trying to play peekaboo with the EOC I tend to hang back and wait for them to come to me or blanket the ground with mines meaning they are open to attack.

Posted Image


#39 Guiotine

Guiotine

    Mech Collector

  • Full Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 2,136 posts
  • Locationsomewhere between Illal and Eorzea

Posted July 17 2013 - 04:27 PM

I'm just gonna start this off by saying I do think the EOC is too strong as it stands, and that on hit sounds and hit detection markers need fixing, but I will also say that I have never had a problem hearing an enemy's EOC charging or firing, even on my crappy laptop speakers. I'm not saying it's not a problem, it might be for some people, I have just never experienced it.

I will also say that I feel Gookywun should not have started that little tirade between him and Xacius. That could have been an interesting debate had it been handled more elegantly, and while I do not care for Beemann's oversimplification of Xacius' argument (in my eyes), I do believe beemann is correct here. I feel that the EOC is overpowered as it currently stands in the game, just not "severely overpowered". However, I do not think it should be nerfed too severely. One thing I noticed when I started playing LoL, was that a lot of champions were not used because the skill cap was too high for too little reward, and other champions could perform the same role easier. Examples would be Syndra or Lee Sin, who are typically replaced by easier AP mids or Junglers, like Lux or Diana. I want to avoid such a scenario with the EOC, so I would say nerf the damage, for sure, but not too much, and make it a little harder to use (longer charge, more spread at short range, that kind of thing).

edit:

View PostXacius, on July 17 2013 - 04:32 PM, said:

And sitting on the forums crunching numbers is the sole determination of balance, right_  Balance is relative.  

I agree with this here. A mathematical analysis of the weapons and items is a great point to consider in balancing, but it definitely should not be the only point. If you focus only on damage or heat gen, you can easily miss other things contributing to balance. Another point to note: a mathematical analysis is by it's very definition a theory, and someone has a great quote in their sig (The_Silencer, I believe :P): "The difference between theory and practice is smaller in theory than it is in practice". That really drives home the point that analyzing the numbers is not the only thing to consider in balance.

Edited by Guiotine, July 17 2013 - 04:41 PM.

ReachH said:

I dub thee, Guiotine, 'Coloxxen, the mech pokemon'

View PostAsianJoyKiller, on July 02 2013 - 03:18 PM, said:

This wall of text gets the AJK Seal of Approval.

#40 Xacius

Xacius

    The Saltan

  • Full Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,889 posts
  • LocationOther games, waiting for dev beacon

Posted July 17 2013 - 04:32 PM

View PostBeemann, on July 17 2013 - 03:49 PM, said:

So to boil down Xacius' arguments here:
The EOC is fine because it got nerfed. Lets of course ignore that that 30 point drop still let it be higher than the original damage values of several secondaries that received 20-35 point nerfs

It's original damage values are quite high.  This much is true.  The TOW's nerfs were made up for the damage reduction with 20% speed increase.  DPS stayed relatively the same.  I think this should be done to the EOC.  Drop the extra 3 charges and increase its firing speed to compensate.  

View PostBeemann, on July 17 2013 - 03:49 PM, said:

The EOC is fine because not that many players (in Xacius`experience) feel that it`s broken. Lets ignore both the fact that this doesn`t prove anything and that Xacius has simply been ignoring many of the complaints about EOC classes

You've actually provided context to back up your claims, which I've responded to.  Gookywun did not.  


View PostBeemann, on July 17 2013 - 03:49 PM, said:

The EOC is fine because it has low DPS. Lets ignore the fact that the current king is burst damage, and the EOC wins that hands down. The pervasiveness of cover in Hawken heaps advantage after advantage onto people who can stack alpha strikes. DPS means pretty much nothing when you only have to be exposed for about a second, and can deal more burst than your opponent can DPS anyway

The current king is burst damage, you're right there.  But the nature of the EOC's burst is no where near as effective as that of the hit scan offenders due to travel time and self-damaging properties.  Refer to my previous point with regards to balance changes.  

View PostBeemann, on July 17 2013 - 03:49 PM, said:

Also, other things that Xacius said that are wrong:
The Bolt is better than the EOC (poor man`s flak > secondary weapon in a primary slot_ Okay bro)

The Bolt's heat generation is next to nothing.  With regards to the current shield/tech meta, TTK is higher than ever.  Having a weapon that can last in these long fights and take shields down quickly is incredibly useful. Have you ever tried to fight any hitscan user in close range with shields all over the place_  The EOC loses in close quarters because of its explosive projectiles that damage the user.   The EOC's burst in this setting damages both the user and the opponent, thereby being less effective than hit scan, in addition to having travel time. It's also much more efficient to take down a shield with the Bolt than it is with the EOC.   Go test it.  Poor man's Flak... rofl.  You clearly haven't been playing much since the Heatsink patch.  

View PostBeemann, on July 17 2013 - 03:49 PM, said:

The REVGL can hit across the map (protip: it has max range)


And what would that max range be_  Care to share_  Probably so far that it barely even makes a difference.  

View PostBeemann, on July 17 2013 - 03:49 PM, said:

That the EOC did 270 damage before the nerf (it did 210)


Was it 210_  I thought it was 270.  I thought the mines did 135, so I was half right.  My bad.  

View PostBeemann, on July 17 2013 - 03:49 PM, said:

Suggested that 1v1's with EU players decide balance

And sitting on the forums crunching numbers is the sole determination of balance, right_  Balance is relative.  You know this as much as I do.  My pings rival UK players on US East.  As AJK would say, "you're ignoring context."  
The weapon may need a slight adjustment, but not before other offenders get toned down a bit.  

View PostBeemann, on July 17 2013 - 03:49 PM, said:

And the number 1 ridiculous comment made by Xacius is....
Suggesting that he's trying to have a reasonable debate

It's better than sitting here patrolling forums for a game that you no longer play.  lol.  

I like how you ignored the key point that I was trying to make:

Balance the other weapons first, them come back and adjust the EOC.  In its current state, it still pales in comparison to the Flak, Slug, or even the Bolt.

Edited by Xacius, July 17 2013 - 04:35 PM.

High MMR (2700+) livestream (scroll down on twitch page for in-depth bio and PC specs).   Check out my Steam Guide!

Exeon is fuzzy bunny bad.

Currently inactive.  Estimated return: TPG 2





Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: Beta, Game, Project, Video, Community, Announcement

1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users