20 replies to this topic

[DeathWaffle]

Update February 9 2014

Still no changes made to hitscan weapons with the Steam update. I believe that making the bullet follow your new tracer round effect, that was just recently added, would greatly benefit the overall combat experience in Hawken. Although you guys have polished this game to a great extent, not many games still fancy this all-auto-hitscan feature. A lot of fans are giving their opinions such as I am, and taking our own time without pay to explain what we're experiencing to help out and when we get no response at this point, it becomes insulting. This game has a lot of potential and your team is composed of smart individuals, so they can figure out a way to implement this "MUST".

Original Post

As title says, I'm not crazy about the hitscan rifles with non-hitscan tracer effects.

I believe that the bullets fired should follow the tracer effect it comes with, and not immediately reach the enemy upon firing like it's a laser with a nice little tracer effect.

Here's how a good mech game like this should feel when firing ballistics, video demonstration below:

http://youtu.be/TOlRKbWwGTo_t=24s

I hope the next update fixes this issue already, and these are big scale weapons firing high caliber projectiles, which means it should feel even slower than any rifle tracer from any Youtube video.

Edited by DeathWaffle, February 09 2014 - 07:19 AM.

[tektzby]

Boyo heavy machinegun is not snipie. And second thingie, you maybe dont know tracer on normal belt its every fifth one. Whats mean .50 "beast" from that video shooted tracer after every forth bullet. Tbh i never had problem with snipies, they seems fine to me. Comparing autosnipies and snipies with HM its (like for someone with "some" training) really wierd.

for compare:

snipie - barrett .50 - type (speer) -  930 m/s
HMG - m2    .50 - type (M33 Ball) - 890 m/s

p.s.:for fun just try to check good ol´ russian VSS, thats really fast snipie (just 290 m/s but with 820 r/s) XD

Edited by tektzby, October 06 2013 - 07:00 PM.

[DeathWaffle]

Gotta love em russian guns

And I agree, it's every fifth one, but the Hawken team can chose whatever they like as long as the laser speed bullets change this has got to stop.

[MajorAjer]

DeathWaffle, on October 06 2013 - 06:31 PM, said:

As title says, I'm not crazy about the hitscan rifles with non-hitscan tracer effects.

I believe that the bullets fired should follow the tracer effect it comes with, and not immediately reach the enemy upon firing like it's a laser with a nice little tracer effect.

Here's how a good mech game like this should feel when firing ballistics, video demonstration below:

http://youtu.be/TOlRKbWwGTo_t=24s

I hope the next update fixes this issue already, and these are big scale weapons firing high caliber projectiles, which means it should feel even slower than any rifle tracer from any Youtube video.

It is a pure gameplay mechanic. The snipers in hawken already have the lowest dps of any mech (maybe not tech). Reapers need like 5 shots with both weapons to take out a non A class mech. Sniping in hawken is like long range harassment so I think having the bullets be instant is fine. If you keep getting your head taken off look at where the tracer is and adjust your position accordingly.

[Teljaxx]

I would like to see all the bullet weapons fire projectiles with travel time, instead of being hitscan. It would make skillful aiming more important on more weapons, even the machine guns. This is one thing that I like about Borderlands. All of the guns have travel time on their shots, and it differs from weapon to weapon.

I could see this being a problem in Hawken for high latency players, though. It is hard enough to hit your target with hitscan weapons and high ping. But adding even a 0.2 second travel time to the shot can be horrendous with the added latency. This was one of the main things that ruined my enjoyment of Bullet Run. They had exceedingly laggy servers, and all the bullets had travel time. Combine the two, and you have a bullet that takes 1.5 seconds to travel fifty feet, making hitting your fast moving target impossible.

So I think that Hawken is better off with hitscan weapons, at least for now.

[DeathWaffle]

Teljaxx, on October 06 2013 - 08:33 PM, said:

I would like to see all the bullet weapons fire projectiles with travel time, instead of being hitscan.
[...]
I could see this being a problem in Hawken for high latency players [...]

Actually it doesn't make a difference. Look at Tribes Ascend for instance, even when I have high latency on some servers, I still hit exactly where I want to hit with or without high latency.

So the server uses my computer's calculations, and they also use the same engine as Hawken. Look it up

Edited by DeathWaffle, October 06 2013 - 08:52 PM.

[Teljaxx]

DeathWaffle, on October 06 2013 - 08:49 PM, said:

Actually it doesn't make a difference. Look at Tribes Ascend for instance, even when I have high latency on some servers, I still hit exactly when I fire.

So the server uses my computer's calculations, and they also use the same engine as Hawken. Look it up

Oh, I know it can work. But the question is can the Hawken Devs get it to work_

Hawken has had some pretty horrible lag issues since the beginning. Sometimes secondary shots either fire late, or not at all. Sometimes the manual detonation occurs behind the actual projectile. Sometimes Hitscan weapons have ~1 second delay to their hits registering. Sometimes Hellfires take an extra second to lock on properly.

So making all weapons projectiles, and then having that going in, the game would be unplayable. If they can get the servers stable and reliable all the time, and they can figure out how to compensate for lag, the I am all for giving everything travel time.

[WarlordZ]

DeathWaffle, on October 06 2013 - 06:31 PM, said:

I hope the next update fixes this issue already, and these are big scale weapons firing high caliber projectiles, which means it should feel even slower than any rifle tracer from any Youtube video.

It's just how things are, and there's no sign of change on the horizon.  Maybe after they work on lag and such, I could see ballistics as a possibility.  It would seriously alter the balance of bullet weapons though, so it isn't a minor endeavor.

If they did add ballistics, they could probably ditch damage falloff altogether.  Changing round velocity based on the gun's intended range would achieve a similar effect with fewer headaches.

[UnDeaD_CyBorG]

Tribes has a strong lag compensation, while Hawken has none.
Targets there often fly in ballistic arcs with little cover, and they also have a hitscan sniper rifle if I remember right (Ascend, that is).
It's really a lacking comparison.
How overbearing lag compensation interacts with ballistics is seen in Planetside 2, where upon a laggy day, you can hit enemies that are already in cover even on your screen.

Something I could immediately get behind, however, is the tracers going where the actual bullet goes, instead of just somewhere in the area.
And yes, I prefer ballistics, but it can't be a priority.

[DeathWaffle]

UnDeaD_CyBorG, on October 07 2013 - 05:06 AM, said:

Tribes has a strong lag compensation, while Hawken has none.
Targets there often fly in ballistic arcs with little cover, and they also have a hitscan sniper rifle if I remember right (Ascend, that is).
It's really a lacking comparison.
How overbearing lag compensation interacts with ballistics is seen in Planetside 2, where upon a laggy day, you can hit enemies that are already in cover even on your screen.

Something I could immediately get behind, however, is the tracers going where the actual bullet goes, instead of just somewhere in the area.
And yes, I prefer ballistics, but it can't be a priority.

So you're saying it's already been implemented in Planetside 2_

[tektzby]

DeathWaffle, on October 08 2013 - 06:12 AM, said:

UnDeaD_CyBorG, on October 07 2013 - 05:06 AM, said:

Tribes has a strong lag compensation, while Hawken has none.
Targets there often fly in ballistic arcs with little cover, and they also have a hitscan sniper rifle if I remember right (Ascend, that is).
It's really a lacking comparison.
How overbearing lag compensation interacts with ballistics is seen in Planetside 2, where upon a laggy day, you can hit enemies that are already in cover even on your screen.

Something I could immediately get behind, however, is the tracers going where the actual bullet goes, instead of just somewhere in the area.
And yes, I prefer ballistics, but it can't be a priority.

So you're saying it's already been implemented in Planetside 2_

In PL2 they basicaly can kill you four metres behind corner XD they implemented stron lag compensation, but with server laggy like hell you get killed basicaly everywhere XD that reason why i left PL2 for some time

[Alchemer]

Teljaxx, on October 06 2013 - 08:33 PM, said:

I would like to see all the bullet weapons fire projectiles with travel time, instead of being hitscan. It would make skillful aiming more important on more weapons, even the machine guns. This is one thing that I like about Borderlands. All of the guns have travel time on their shots, and it differs from weapon to weapon.

I could see this being a problem in Hawken for high latency players, though. It is hard enough to hit your target with hitscan weapons and high ping. But adding even a 0.2 second travel time to the shot can be horrendous with the added latency. This was one of the main things that ruined my enjoyment of Bullet Run. They had exceedingly laggy servers, and all the bullets had travel time. Combine the two, and you have a bullet that takes 1.5 seconds to travel fifty feet, making hitting your fast moving target impossible.

So I think that Hawken is better off with hitscan weapons, at least for now.

I agree. Tribes:Ascend did this, and while it is a fantastic game too, hitting enemies traveling at 300 KPH with non-hitscan weapons was a pain. I think hitscan for bullets is good, because most bullet based weapons aren't exceedingly powerful, while the projectile based weapons are, and you can dodge them.

[h0B0]

I think teljaxx covered it pretty well.

The simplest fix to the tracers not following the hitscan would be a simple change to the visuals and not to the actual mechanics of the game.

However the optimal fix would be to have all weapons fire tracers. There are multiple issues with such a mechanic tho: more need for balancing, lag compensation, and an engine to run it.

From what i heard, Unreal engine might not be able to support projectiles traveling at extreme speeds.

So whilst i support such an endeavor i am not optimistic about seeing a change.

[Tahoma]

Very fast bullet speed over hitscan would be a better option in my opinion.

[DeathWaffle]

Still no change.

[Farlanghn]

DeathWaffle, on October 06 2013 - 06:31 PM, said:

Still no changes made to hitscan weapons with the Steam update. I believe that making the bullet follow your new tracer round effect, that was just recently added, would greatly benefit the overall combat experience in Hawken. Although you guys have polished this game to a great extent, not many games still fancy this all-auto-hitscan feature. A lot of fans are giving their opinions such as I am, and taking our own time without pay to explain what we're experiencing to help out and when we get no response at this point, it becomes insulting. This game has a lot of potential and your team is composed of smart individuals, so they can figure out a way to implement this "MUST".

This statement as a dev would make me not change a thing. Its sounds angry and jaded. "It becomes insulting"_ Well excuse them for insulting your little feelings. If you are getting insulted over a dev not listening to a board post you need to chill. Maybe make your own game. Its not easy! Maybe some like certain aspects of the game. Maybe.. Just the devs like it that way and are deciding to leave it that way on THEIR game. Just maybe though..

"A lot of fans are giving their opinions such as I am, and taking our own time without pay to explain" Hold up one sec! Are you saying you aren't getting paid real money to give a suggestion on a message board_ You really need to get with the program. I am swimming in a pool of cash right now.

These statements are all angry. You can give constructive criticism about something without saying, "You're not listening to me!!!"

Edited by Farlanghn, February 09 2014 - 07:56 AM.

[DeathWaffle]

Farlanghn, on February 09 2014 - 07:55 AM, said:

Still no changes made to hitscan weapons [...] without saying, "You're not listening to me!!!"

Meh, you're obviously new to seeing my posts. What you cannot see is I'm trying to get my message heard, and I'm trying to help this game and the community. But you see it in your own pessimistic way, your loss.

Edited by DeathWaffle, February 09 2014 - 08:37 AM.

[DennisKnightPC]

I beleive the choice to use hitscan is a lot to do with the Unreal 3 engine and the fact that "true" simulated ballistics and bullet physics is a more intensive operation for the hardware and more sensitive to packet loss and ping.  ADH simply don't have the same resources as Dice, for instance.

[Beefsweat]

DennisKnightPC, on February 09 2014 - 08:48 AM, said:

I beleive the choice to use hitscan is a lot to do with the Unreal 3 engine and the fact that "true" simulated ballistics and bullet physics is a more intensive operation for the hardware and more sensitive to packet loss and ping.  ADH simply don't have the same resources as Dice, for instance.

Pretty much this. It's just not feasible for the game's engine and for the average pace and briskness of matches.

[Zanozus]

DeathWaffle, forget about this game.It is already obsolete before the official launch. New Generation Games will turn Hawken in dust.