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Mini-Flak, the Heat vs EOC, CU and general heat gen balance


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#1 FenixStryk

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Posted December 12 2013 - 06:59 PM

Before I begin, a handful of numbers:

Spoiler


Applied Examples:
The EOC in general offers 400% heat efficiency with similar burst output when compared to the Heat.
The Vulcan Grenadier has an uptime of 81% (13 out of 16 seconds).
The Mini-Flak Vanguard has an uptime of 60% (9 out of 15 seconds).
The SMC Vanguard has an uptime of 70% (14 out of 20 seconds).
_____ ____ ___ __ _

While much effort has been made to curb heat's influence in Hawken -- between Cooling Units, the Coolant patch and a potential upcoming Mech designed to absorb allied heat generation -- heat still remains as a significant limiter in disadvantageous limitations, much to the chagrin of underdog teams trying desperately to reverse an 8-28 TDM score deficit. As such, I can't help but peer over certain heat values without a dubious sense of curiosity. Certain Mechs and weapons significantly outpace other equivalents that perform similar roles without meaningful trade-offs. Is this obsolescence by design_

I would like to hear the opinions of other pilots regarding heat in general, and specifically concerning what I see as three outliers:
the Mini-Flak vs. other sustained weapons;
the Heat Cannon vs. other burst weapons;
and Cooling Units vs. non-CU vs. the sad, sad Brawler.

The Mini-Flak:
While one may assume this Flak Cannon is built to pack a punch, its combat application is typically that of a sustained weapon; it only deals 44 damage per shot, so it offers little meaningful leverage when used as a burst weapon. Despite that, it is significantly hotter than other sustained weapons in the same category: the Vulcan, which has nearly identical DPS, is nearly twice as cold, and the SMC even colder with only a marginal (~10%) DPS sacrifice. Is the ~30 damage "edge" in burst reason enough for this weapon to be an oven_

The Heat Cannon:
The Heat is surely an infamous weapon, but history as sole reason for eternal damnation is justice poorly served. When compared to the EOC, it offers less utility and abysmal heat efficiency; yet, when compared to the Flak, it offers less burst (129 vs. 90) and less DPS (105/s vs. 94/s) with splash damage as its sole advantage. Am I alone in viewing the Heat is a poor compromise between the Flak and the EOC_ What can be done to address this_

"Why is the Brawler so bad_":
Buff the Brawler.
The most recent patch has in some part closed the gap between the Gren and the Van, but little was done to address the Brawler's ghastly base heat and CU values. While certainly the Brawler requires a slightly different metric as it wields a Flak, I do feel that this former Prime Example of Vulcan Supremacy needs some form of re-evaluation.

Regarding CU vs. non-CU, I do still feel that CU rests in the same position as Suspension: it offers flat scaling (-3.5s), such that Mechs with already low natural heat generation benefit exponentially from it. It is a tune that gets better the more you invest in it, rather than yielding diminished returns (see: Armor). Is a 3 second overheat time "fair" for 7 tuning points when non-CU Mechs cool down within 6 seconds, or is heat inconsequential simply because popular burst weapons need not think of it_


For fear of running out of breath, I'll close abruptly. Any input is greatly appreciated.
Thank you for reading, and doubly so to those that respond.

It was fun while it lasted.


#2 Bloody_Bucket

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Posted December 12 2013 - 09:56 PM

I like the HEAT, because it made me learn to aim, quickly.

#3 Xacius

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Posted December 13 2013 - 12:00 AM

I agree with most of your points, except for the Heat cannon.  The Heat outputs considerable DPS in clusters, and allows you to hit multiple targets at the same time.  While this is also true for the EOC, it accomplishes this more slowly and is more effective in defensive application.  

The Heat is more effective in direct assaults against faster targets, imo.
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#4 Super_Pickle

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Posted December 13 2013 - 12:48 AM

I play heat scout. I used to play flak scout, but for some reason I ended up changing, even though I originally thought the heat was downright lousy.

I then revised my thoughts after playing it for a while. The heat cannon is awesome. Difficult to use, but totally totally awesome. The main awesomeness is the near hitscan charged fire and the splash. Seriously, that's the reason the heat cannon is awesome. Every stat on the gun says it should suck balls, but splash damage is that good. I can finally play the scout like a little mini version of my raider with my stupid ability to hit targets without line of sight, making me near invulnerable if the enemy can't match my peekaboo skills. The thing is, it comes with more ability to get up close and wreck single targets and more ability to deal with mid air targets. Peekaboo with splash weapons around corners is my main game, and the heat allows me to do just that. It also gives me the ability to be accurate at range without losing a ton of dps up close. The tow also makes it easier to deal with inclines. I've never felt at a huge disadvantage when I'm down at the bottom of a hill with my heat scout, but with my EOC raider I feel like I'm royally screwed against a mech at the top of a hill. Can't land EOC pucks, can't hit the corsair-KLA slug, too far for the MIRV, and the EMP is useless up a hill. I'm screwed, but with the heat, it's hitscan, so I can hit stuff reliably and the TOW can be detonated in mid air.

The heat allows me to stay at really really long ranges with no penalties. The way I pilot the scout, the map is my playground. I engage at any range I want, with whatever mech I want, at whatever position I want. I find that the TOW isn't fast enough to handle the ranges I frequently engage enemies at. I pick at SS whenever I feel like it with the scout. The uncharged shots kinda stink, but it allows pretty darn good dps compared to most stuff, and it does all that while giving you really really really good accuracy. I'd like to see a flak cannon hit a sniper across the map. It just doesn't happen, but I can pop out and burst something with a charged shot and a TOW and it's feeling the pain afterwards.

The thing is, I rarely overheat with my scout. I time my shots very accurately and play around corners, so the heat generation isn't normally that big of a problem. Most of my firing is charged shots. I still push overheating limits more than my raider, but with the EOC heat changes, that's becoming less true. I've actually had problems with heat gen on my raider today. I'd say it's getting closer to being balanced. I could say that the heat cannon uncharged shots needs a little fixing and the delay between uncharged and charged is too long, but that could just be me complaining. I seem to be using it to deal with flak scouts just fine.

Note: as an EOC raider and a Heat scout, I'll give some quick notes for comparison. The heat is awesome. The EOC is still awesome, despite numerous minor nerfs recently. My thoughts are below:
Spoiler

Heat is awesome in different ways than the EOC, but that doesn't change the fact that the miniflak is still pretty bad. Less burst, less dps, more heat than both the flak and the sub machine gun. It doesn't come with better accuracy or splash, or anything that makes it worth using. I haven't seen one single scout ever use it. Why even have it_

Edited by Super_Pickle, December 13 2013 - 01:09 AM.

Spoiler

#5 Grizzled

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Posted December 14 2013 - 08:52 AM

Your analysis of the factors you take into account seems pretty good.

I think you are failing to take other factors into account, accuracy, spread, damage drop-off due to range. Weapon utility can play a factor too.
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#6 ThatDamnedBoedy

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Posted January 01 2014 - 11:07 AM

View PostXacius, on December 13 2013 - 12:00 AM, said:

I agree with most of your points, except for the Heat cannon.  The Heat outputs considerable DPS in clusters, and allows you to hit multiple targets at the same time.  While this is also true for the EOC, it accomplishes this more slowly and is more effective in defensive application.  

The Heat is more effective in direct assaults against faster targets, imo.

Pretty much this that and now for the other...EOC is great in siege games for trap laying and just firing into defensive positions.  Heat cannon I like but sometimes I feel it could use more oomph...and then someone kills me with it and I back off that position.  The miniflak though does generate waaaay too much heat.  put it with the point-d in heat generation...or give it a higher burst and it will be fine.  One or the other.  I'm fine with high heat as long as I get something for it.




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