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Opinions of Cosmetic mech designs

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#1 Hayseed

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Posted March 19 2014 - 07:22 PM

This is just my opinion on what is wrong with the cosmetic features of Hawken and how to fix it...if you have any separate ideas or grievances please share

    Let me start of by saying that I really do admire the customization available for your mechs. However, I do have some problems with them. The problem is that you can equip part from other mechs to your mech (for example, you can put sharpshooter parts on your predator mech) by doing this you make your mech looking like a completely different one, meaning that players will respond differently when spotting you. This is all because of something that I call a "mech's identity" and that is physical appearances that we, the players, assign to a certain mech in our brain. This is because that when we first get this mech, they come with these parts and the elite parts are off similar appearance. They are encouraged by the games art designs and trailers too. A mech's identity mostly originates in its core, or main, piece. I dont mind about being able change the arms, legs, or hips, or even thrusters, as long as the core remains the same. And by same, I dont mean exactly the same, Meteor could come up with some different diesigns that still have the same overall shape but different textures/parts. A hose could be moves/removed, an armor plate could be placed here or there. Basically just like the differences between the elite parts and the original, except that there would be more of them.

#2 PhasmaFelis

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Posted March 19 2014 - 08:11 PM

Yup. There's a famous Team Fortress 2 presentation from Valve where they talk about the importance of distinctive silhouettes, allowing you to distinguish any class at a glance, even if they're in shadow and backlit, and react accordingly. It's a pretty interesting point, and Hawken will never ever fix it because they're irreversibly committed to funding the game by charging people for cosmetic parts. To roll it back now, they'd have to take those cosmetics away from people who paid cash money for them, which would understandably infuriate them. So it can't happen.

#3 nokari

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Posted March 19 2014 - 08:24 PM

Let me give you some context here.

In the beginning, there was only chassis part swapping with MC. There were no elite parts and no icons of any kind to indicate what mech someone was using. You could only identify by the combination of weapons they were using. To correct this problem, they added mech ability icons in the matches and on the scoreboard so that mechs could be easily identified.
Now as for the use of swapping parts, there is nothing wrong with that. They are supposed to confuse enemies, not only provide custom looks. The elite parts are a free customization piecemeal giving to players that level up to encourage them to buy the MC-only parts. They're the bare minimum of customization and are more of a gimmick than having anything to do with encouraging clear identities. Doing what you're suggesting in having only minor differences like hoses and textures would be no different than elite parts and just doesn't make spending any money worth it.

So given the clear indicators of what type of mech each player has in a match, letting yourself get duped by changes in appearance isn't a problem with customizations, it's a matter of you not paying good enough attention. Confusion and camouflage are natural factors in combat, so rather than trying to make the game easy-mode, learn to adapt.

If you want to argue about it, I suggest you first use the search, because this topic has been covered in depth several times before.

Edited by nokari, March 19 2014 - 08:25 PM.

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#4 Hayseed

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Posted March 19 2014 - 09:51 PM

View PostPhasmaFelis, on March 19 2014 - 08:11 PM, said:

Yup. There's a famous Team Fortress 2 presentation from Valve where they talk about the importance of distinctive silhouettes, allowing you to distinguish any class at a glance, even if they're in shadow and backlit, and react accordingly. It's a pretty interesting point, and Hawken will never ever fix it because they're irreversibly committed to funding the game by charging people for cosmetic parts. To roll it back now, they'd have to take those cosmetics away from people who paid cash money for them, which would understandably infuriate them. So it can't happen.
To be honest I was going to reference team fortress 2 in my post but i forgot :( but it further proves my point. TF2 has plenty of purchasable items that you can equip to your classes that are only cosmetic...they dont do anything besides change the look. Yet whenever you walk into a battlefield you can instantly understand who is what class. Even in games such as Battlefield and hell, even in Call of Duty you can tell something about the person your fighting by looking at them! And thats important because half the skill in Hawken is identifying your enemy and reacting accordingly (i.e. should I stay, pursue, or flee_). I know that you can TECHNICALLY tell by weapons but they are extremely hard to figure out, especially in the the middle of combat, and just cause you took damage doesn't mean you know how it happend. You could get hit in the back, turn around and see mech right behind you and assume "oh, its an sharpshooter, the damage must have been from the sabot rifle" and then you get close and BAM! you get whacked off because he actually was an assault with a freakin point d vulcan/TOW (dont even get me started on TOW). I konw they wont, but Meteor could always make the change, take the pieces away from players and (gasps) refund the amount they paid in MC. By refunding it in MC you garentee that they will use it agian so its not like they would be losing any money. By switching to this format you encourage people to think about what is actually on their mech and what it represents (for instance, Halo: Reach, each armor piece had a story or a purpose behind it, if i wanted to be a sniper, i equipped sniperesque pieces).

#5 PhasmaFelis

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Posted March 20 2014 - 03:57 PM

View Postnokari, on March 19 2014 - 08:24 PM, said:

Now as for the use of swapping parts, there is nothing wrong with that. They are supposed to confuse enemies, not only provide custom looks.
You say that like it's a good thing. I thought we were all agreed that pay-to-win is bad.

#6 Beefsweat

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Posted March 20 2014 - 04:03 PM

View PostPhasmaFelis, on March 20 2014 - 03:57 PM, said:

You say that like it's a good thing. I thought we were all agreed that pay-to-win is bad.

Oh not this again...
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#7 PhasmaFelis

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Posted March 20 2014 - 04:09 PM

View PostBeefsweat, on March 20 2014 - 04:03 PM, said:

View PostPhasmaFelis, on March 20 2014 - 03:57 PM, said:

You say that like it's a good thing. I thought we were all agreed that pay-to-win is bad.

Oh not this again...
What_ Am I wrong_ Letting people pay cash to get in-game benefits early is one thing; having in-game benefits that must be paid for is the fuzziest of bunnies.

So which is it_ Are they harmless cashflow cosmetics, or are they a concrete benefit_ I'm not really that bothered by them myself, the hypothetical benefit is so small, but if you're gonna say "duh, they're supposed to give you an advantage," you're saying that Hawken is pay-to-win and that the devs are the kind of jerks who make pay-to-win games.

#8 Ls777

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Posted March 20 2014 - 04:24 PM

View Postnokari, on March 19 2014 - 08:24 PM, said:

Now as for the use of swapping parts, there is nothing wrong with that. They are supposed to confuse enemies, not only provide custom looks. The elite parts are a free customization piecemeal giving to players that level up to encourage them to buy the MC-only parts. They're the bare minimum of customization and are more of a gimmick than having anything to do with encouraging clear identities. Doing what you're suggesting in having only minor differences like hoses and textures would be no different than elite parts and just doesn't make spending any money worth it.

So given the clear indicators of what type of mech each player has in a match, letting yourself get duped by changes in appearance isn't a problem with customizations, it's a matter of you not paying good enough attention. Confusion and camouflage are natural factors in combat, so rather than trying to make the game easy-mode, learn to adapt.

This is basic pay2win. I liked the way you tried to put a "skill" spin on it, like "oh, pay attention better, its just confusion and camouflage"

fuzzy bunny.

It doesn't take any skill to dress up ur mech to look like another, only money. Furthermore, skill IS knowing how to react and deal with the different mech classes on sight. Making classes hard to identify isn't making the game more skillbased, its dumbing the game down.

Finally, there is no reason why you can't still change it. Weapons and mechs are rebalanced and nerfed and people payed mc for them too. Just refund the mc.

#9 Beefsweat

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Posted March 20 2014 - 04:32 PM

View PostLs777, on March 20 2014 - 04:24 PM, said:

View Postnokari, on March 19 2014 - 08:24 PM, said:

Now as for the use of swapping parts, there is nothing wrong with that. They are supposed to confuse enemies, not only provide custom looks. The elite parts are a free customization piecemeal giving to players that level up to encourage them to buy the MC-only parts. They're the bare minimum of customization and are more of a gimmick than having anything to do with encouraging clear identities. Doing what you're suggesting in having only minor differences like hoses and textures would be no different than elite parts and just doesn't make spending any money worth it.

So given the clear indicators of what type of mech each player has in a match, letting yourself get duped by changes in appearance isn't a problem with customizations, it's a matter of you not paying good enough attention. Confusion and camouflage are natural factors in combat, so rather than trying to make the game easy-mode, learn to adapt.

This is basic pay2win. I liked the way you tried to put a "skill" spin on it, like "oh, pay attention better, its just confusion and camouflage"

fuzzy bunny.

It doesn't take any skill to dress up ur mech to look like another, only money. Furthermore, skill IS knowing how to react and deal with the different mech classes on sight. Making classes hard to identify isn't making the game more skillbased, its dumbing the game down.

Finally, there is no reason why you can't still change it. Weapons and mechs are rebalanced and nerfed and people payed mc for them too. Just refund the mc.

Except mech classes have always been broadcast on the scoreboard and they have big bright icons that signify their ability (and thus their class) right next to their names and health bars that you can see by highlighting right over a mech at even long ranges... hell I'm colorblind and I can still see those massive outlines.

Edited by Beefsweat, March 20 2014 - 04:34 PM.

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#10 nokari

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Posted March 20 2014 - 06:29 PM

View PostPhasmaFelis, on March 20 2014 - 03:57 PM, said:

View Postnokari, on March 19 2014 - 08:24 PM, said:

Now as for the use of swapping parts, there is nothing wrong with that. They are supposed to confuse enemies, not only provide custom looks.
You say that like it's a good thing. I thought we were all agreed that pay-to-win is bad.

If that's pay to win, then so is using the CR-T elite parts and any of the free camos.

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#11 Hayseed

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Posted March 20 2014 - 06:51 PM

View PostBeefsweat, on March 20 2014 - 04:32 PM, said:

Except mech classes have always been broadcast on the scoreboard and they have big bright icons that signify their ability (and thus their class) right next to their names and health bars that you can see by highlighting right over a mech at even long ranges... hell I'm colorblind and I can still see those massive outlines.

Well I can't, the little indicators over the mechs are small as hell as keeping track of it in the middle of combat is nearly impossible for me.  Also, isn't having a little icon over your head that "tells" enemies what mech your are kinda stupid_ Especially when they have their callsign over it. If we were going to use this approach then why dont we just remove the callsigns over enemies heads and replace them with the name of their mech_

#12 Ls777

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Posted March 20 2014 - 07:05 PM

View PostBeefsweat, on March 20 2014 - 04:32 PM, said:

Except mech classes have always been broadcast on the scoreboard and they have big bright icons that signify their ability (and thus their class) right next to their names and health bars that you can see by highlighting right over a mech at even long ranges... hell I'm colorblind and I can still see those massive outlines.

Needing to mouse over someone to identify is bad game design, but it would be okay if all the mechs weren't so distinctive. By giving each mech its own unique look you are already training everyone to recognize the type of mech through visuals - which only helps the small amount of people who abuse the cosmetic system to look like a different mech. In the heat of battle, im looking at what type of mech you look like. Needing to mouse over to double check that the mech matches the icon is bad game design - this is hawken, not papers please.
Maybe YOU look at the icon first to tell - but I doubt that is true for 99% of people. Dressing up your mech to look like another one is clearly a small gameplay advantage that you can only get with money, therefore, pay2win.

You should be able to tell what type of class something is just by looking at it - thats a basic tenet of good class based shooters.

Note that in the end, its not really a big deal, but its details like this that seperate the great games from the incredible ones.

View Postnokari, on March 20 2014 - 06:29 PM, said:

If that's pay to win, then so is using the CR-T elite parts and any of the free camos.

Thats terrible logic. The crt elites could only maybe be confused with the assault, which is virtually an identical class.
The free camos don't obscure the type of mech you are at all.

Edited by Ls777, March 20 2014 - 07:05 PM.


#13 nokari

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Posted March 20 2014 - 07:36 PM

View PostLs777, on March 20 2014 - 07:05 PM, said:

Needing to mouse over someone to identify is bad game design, but it would be okay if all the mechs weren't so distinctive. By giving each mech its own unique look you are already training everyone to recognize the type of mech through visuals - which only helps the small amount of people who abuse the cosmetic system to look like a different mech. In the heat of battle, im looking at what type of mech you look like. Needing to mouse over to double check that the mech matches the icon is bad game design - this is hawken, not papers please.
Maybe YOU look at the icon first to tell - but I doubt that is true for 99% of people. Dressing up your mech to look like another one is clearly a small gameplay advantage that you can only get with money, therefore, pay2win.

No it's not bad game design. He's talking about having to place your crosshairs over an enemy that is way outside of radar range, off in the distance. Anyone within radar range will have those things automatically displayed above their mech the whole time. You've played the game, right_
If you never look at those icons, you're not paying attention when you should. Missing such an important and obvious detail is just plain ignorant behavior when it comes to situational awareness.It's something that anyone should do regardless of what each enemy mech looks like.

Quote

You should be able to tell what type of class something is just by looking at it - thats a basic tenet of good class based shooters.

If classes is an issue to you, you absolutely can tell the type of class any mech is just by looking at it, regardless of what parts it has. All As, Bs, and Cs have distinctive silhouettes that can't be confused by swapping parts.

Quote

Thats terrible logic. The crt elites could only maybe be confused with the assault, which is virtually an identical class.
The free camos don't obscure the type of mech you are at all.

What_ How could you confuse an Elite with an Assault in any way_ They look absolutely nothing alike and it's not possible to put elite parts on any other mech.
The point is that the CR-T elite parts, particularly the cockpit, looks very different than the default chassis. By your logic, any player that's never seen someone use the elite parts and gets confused by it isn't getting taken advantage of because they weren't bought. Camouflage is by definition an attempt to disguise and hide, which is basically the same thing as swapping parts.

Edited by nokari, March 20 2014 - 07:38 PM.

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#14 Beefsweat

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Posted March 20 2014 - 09:25 PM

View PostLs777, on March 20 2014 - 07:05 PM, said:

By giving each mech its own unique look you are already training everyone to recognize the type of mech through visuals

Except that you'll most likely experience chassis swapping very early on in your gameplay career (many experienced it back in alpha 2) and very quickly learn not to rely on the silhouette of the mech but the silhouette/sound of the weapons + engagement style among many other factors which makes this topic hugely moot.

View PostLs777, on March 20 2014 - 07:05 PM, said:

abuse the cosmetic system to look like a different mech

Is it abuse when its an intended gameplay mechanic_

View PostLs777, on March 20 2014 - 07:05 PM, said:

Needing to mouse over to double check that the mech matches the icon is bad game design - this is hawken, not papers please.

Do you actually play the game_ Do you aim at enemies_ The only way I could see this being an actual problem is if you somehow never manage to look at the scoreboard or actually aim at your enemy at any range.

Edited by Beefsweat, March 20 2014 - 09:25 PM.

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#15 6ixxer

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Posted March 20 2014 - 09:31 PM

hehe, i like it. My tech looks like a Zerker. Any good player will work out i'm still a tech.

N00bs might just avoid engaging if they think my mech has decent offense. Was mainly looking at n00b Preds when I did this.

#16 XyXly

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Posted March 20 2014 - 10:44 PM

I can't guess the actual mech, but it's easy to distinguish class.

Pretty much all of them look the same in their respective classes from behind.

Not too great on the front either. The best I can do is be prepared for anything, looking at the icon next to the username doesn't really do it for me.

#17 RedRumOnE

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Posted March 20 2014 - 10:59 PM

Yeah, in the end of the day you're ultimately responsible for your own survival. I just look at the icons and remain aware of the mechs that inhabit any certain area. If it's a 2v1 I'm smart enough not to go in if it's a 3v1 I'm smart enough not to go in. If I can get a few picks I'm happy. The icons above mechs heads helps a lot. I really don't see it as their mech is this powerfull ________. I see it as This mech has THESE DRAWBACKS ___________ ,____________,____________. Counter accordingly and if you ever use pay to play as an excuse you're just terrible.

As far as the cosmetic stuff... yeah options are nice but as for me I like basics I keep it simple and stupid. I think if you enjoy those parts then use them, pay for them, support the developers. Personally I'm not affected one way or the other what my opponent looks like... wont stop me from killing them.

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#18 comic_sans

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Posted March 21 2014 - 05:25 AM

If you keep playin, eventually you're just gonna recognize mechs not by their silhouette, but by their icon, movements, and the reputation of the pilot.  It will become second nature, and then you'll be free to appreciate how other players have made their murder machine their own.

#19 RunaPanda

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Posted March 21 2014 - 05:48 AM

View PostBeefsweat, on March 20 2014 - 04:03 PM, said:

View PostPhasmaFelis, on March 20 2014 - 03:57 PM, said:

You say that like it's a good thing. I thought we were all agreed that pay-to-win is bad.

Oh not this again...
Oh yes it's that again.
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#20 PhasmaFelis

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Posted March 21 2014 - 10:05 AM

View Postnokari, on March 20 2014 - 06:29 PM, said:

If that's pay to win, then so is using the CR-T elite parts and any of the free camos.
Uh. Except for the "pay" part, which free parts don't have, because they're, um, free. I don't think anyone has a problem with "free-to-win."





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