44 replies to this topic

[nokari]

PhasmaFelis, on March 21 2014 - 10:05 AM, said:

nokari, on March 20 2014 - 06:29 PM, said:

If that's pay to win, then so is using the CR-T elite parts and any of the free camos.

Uh. Except for the "pay" part, which free parts don't have, because they're, um, free. I don't think anyone has a problem with "free-to-win."

You've missed the point: The argument is that changing parts is pay-2-win because it confuses enemies visually. If using free customizations that are doing the same thing is not also considered an attempt to confuse people for a winning advantage, that's being hypocritical and having a double-standard. Ergo free and paid customizations are both the same concept and therefor paid customizations are not pay-2-win.

[Zycat]

*ahem*

I would like more differentiation between CR-T and Assault. They can be made to look the same.

Not a big deal, but I like nitpicking

[Nept]

https://community.pl...o-on-your-mech/

[Ls777]

nokari, on March 20 2014 - 07:36 PM, said:

No it's not bad game design. He's talking about having to place your crosshairs over an enemy that is way outside of radar range, off in the distance. Anyone within radar range will have those things automatically displayed above their mech the whole time. You've played the game, right_
If you never look at those icons, you're not paying attention when you should. Missing such an important and obvious detail is just plain ignorant behavior when it comes to situational awareness.It's something that anyone should do regardless of what each enemy mech looks like.

Whoops, looks like i was being retarded about the mouseover thing, I stand corrected, the icons are there all the time. Which naturally brings me to another point - icons are NOT an obvious detail. Distinctive mech shapes for every different mech is an example of an important, obvious detail. Allowing only a small number of players to contradict that detail is bad game design.

Quote

If classes is an issue to you, you absolutely can tell the type of class any mech is just by looking at it, regardless of what parts it has. All As, Bs, and Cs have distinctive silhouettes that can't be confused by swapping parts.

Sorry, wrong terminology. I was referring to type of mech - certainly there is no confusion between type of weight class.

Quote

What_ How could you confuse an Elite with an Assault in any way_ They look absolutely nothing alike and it's not possible to put elite parts on any other mech.
The point is that the CR-T elite parts, particularly the cockpit, looks very different than the default chassis. By your logic, any player that's never seen someone use the elite parts and gets confused by it isn't getting taken advantage of because they weren't bought. Camouflage is by definition an attempt to disguise and hide, which is basically the same thing as swapping parts.

I dont think you are getting what I am saying. You said it yourself: It's not possible to put elite parts on any other mech. Therefore, you can't use elite parts to pretend to be a different mech. If i see a crt-elite, then I recognize it as a crt. There is no mech confusion with elite parts.  You can only dress up your mech like a different one if you pay money. No combination of free parts will make your technician look like a scout - only paying will.

nokari, on March 21 2014 - 10:37 AM, said:

You've missed the point: The argument is that changing parts is pay-2-win because it confuses enemies visually. If using free customizations that are doing the same thing is not also considered an attempt to confuse people for a winning advantage, that's being hypocritical and having a double-standard. Ergo free and paid customizations are both the same concept and therefor paid customizations are not pay-2-win.

Same concept here. My argument is that confusing people into thinking you are a different mech is pay2win. Elite parts do not make you look like a different mech, so they aren't the same thing.The only way you can do this is by paying.

Beefsweat, on March 20 2014 - 09:25 PM, said:

Is it abuse when its an intended gameplay mechanic_

If its an intended gameplay mechanic, then its pay2win since you can only make use of it by paying.

6ixxer, on March 20 2014 - 09:31 PM, said:

hehe, i like it. My tech looks like a Zerker. Any good player will work out i'm still a tech.

N00bs might just avoid engaging if they think my mech has decent offense. Was mainly looking at n00b Preds when I did this.

This is exactly what im talking about.
You guys keep on arguing that experienced players wont fall for it - but that's irrelevant.
No matter how much I play the game, I will never have the same small advantage unless I pay for it.

comic_sans, on March 21 2014 - 05:25 AM, said:

appreciate how other players have made their murder machine their own.

Except dressing your mech to look like another one doesn't really express anything unique anyways_ It just looks like other peoples free mechs_ Cool, I guess_ Cosmetics can offer so many possibilities for uniqueness...

Edited by Ls777, March 21 2014 - 09:50 PM.

[SparkyJJC]

PhasmaFelis, on March 20 2014 - 03:57 PM, said:

You say that like it's a good thing. I thought we were all agreed that pay-to-win is bad.

[XyXly]

Maybe every mech should just be given one unmistakable, unchangeable trait such as a large exhaust pipe or a sizeable utility case attached to one of the arms or something, something that would stick out and become part of the mech's silhouette. I mean you would still get the uppers and lowers you want, the exhaust stack can just be something like this:
http://www.dieselpla...moke_stacks.jpg
sticking out of the back of, maybe an assault or something.
Maybe a rocketeer can have some small versions of something like this below the "wing" arms:
http://fc06.devianta...heOrangeGuy.jpg

That's just an idea.
Not too big though, but just enough so that you would be able to see that "Yep, that is that mech."

As it stands though, I'm not too bothered about this.

Edited by XyXly, March 22 2014 - 03:33 AM.

[Wipman]

If someone knows the Battletech or the Earth Siege... there's alot of room for improvements and additions to the mechs shape, cannons on top or over the shoulder like a battletech's Marauder, missile launchers like a battletech's Warhammer... but adapted to the game's mechs style, that's quite unique and pimp between the alike genere games. IMO something with a closer shape of the original Robocop's ED-209 will be very pimp too.

[Beefsweat]

I'd really love to see some concrete, empirical evidence on this supposed advantage. I get the 'pay' part, but I'd be very interested to see some real proof on that 'win' part of the argument. (fun fact: last time this argument popped up the exact same thing happened and no real proof was ever brought to the table)

[RavWielki]

PhasmaFelis, on March 20 2014 - 04:09 PM, said:

Beefsweat, on March 20 2014 - 04:03 PM, said:

PhasmaFelis, on March 20 2014 - 03:57 PM, said:

You say that like it's a good thing. I thought we were all agreed that pay-to-win is bad.

Oh not this again...

What_ Am I wrong_ Letting people pay cash to get in-game benefits early is one thing; having in-game benefits that must be paid for is the fuzziest of bunnies.

So which is it_ Are they harmless cashflow cosmetics, or are they a concrete benefit_ I'm not really that bothered by them myself, the hypothetical benefit is so small, but if you're gonna say "duh, they're supposed to give you an advantage," you're saying that Hawken is pay-to-win and that the devs are the kind of jerks who make pay-to-win games.

I identify mech by icons not by their  appearance,you will get used to it. In my opinion mech customization is weak, so thats why they allow to change parts.They should really add few very nice and polished parts(at least 25k polygons for core, and 15k for rest parts) if they want to earn some money. Personally i wait for "new looking" parts because now we have only rusty parts to choose which doesn't fit to other less rusty or different rusty parts.

Edited by RavWielki, March 22 2014 - 12:23 PM.

[Ls777]

Beefsweat, on March 22 2014 - 09:35 AM, said:

I'd really love to see some concrete, empirical evidence on this supposed advantage. I get the 'pay' part, but I'd be very interested to see some real proof on that 'win' part of the argument. (fun fact: last time this argument popped up the exact same thing happened and no real proof was ever brought to the table)

A video wont prove anything, there are a number of factors that could explain anything in a video. You can't videotape someones mind. Anecdotal evidence gets thrown out as the player being bad and lacking situational evidence. (which is missing the point)
What exactly are you expecting as proof_ Its not like looking like a different mech will suddenly allow you to roll servers, its only a slight tactical advantage. You said yourself that its an intended gameplay mechanic - then why am I not allowed to take advantage of it_

Edited by Ls777, March 22 2014 - 01:00 PM.

[timestandstill]

I changed my sharpshooter to a G2 chassis, but it hasn't stopped anyone from approaching me like they would a sharpshooter. Only made the change because I hate the way sharpshooters look, not for any perceived tactical advantage.

Come to think of it I never even taken notice of my enemy's cosmetics.  Identifying which mech they're piloting has literally never been a problem, and I'm pretty new to the game.

[Hayseed]

Beefsweat, on March 22 2014 - 09:35 AM, said:

I'd really love to see some concrete, empirical evidence on this supposed advantage. I get the 'pay' part, but I'd be very interested to see some real proof on that 'win' part of the argument. (fun fact: last time this argument popped up the exact same thing happened and no real proof was ever brought to the table)

wow..."Real Proof"_  What is there to prove these are all facts!
This  thread has gotten a little off-topic... let me re-iterate my initial argument
1.) I do like the ability to visually customize my mech. From legs, to middles, to arms and torsos and even camos
2.) However, I do not like putting a torso from another mech on to it. I do not like it when other players do the same.
3.) The reason why I do not like it when players do this is because it makes your mech look like a mech that has different abilities/weapons/advantages/disadvantages. Since half the game is identifying what mech your up against and responding accordingly, "disguising" your mech DOES give you a "generated" advantage (meaning that there is no statistical advantage as in speed or health, but the advantage is created when adding human players to the mix). Certainly there are ways to work around this advantage, but I do not think that anyone should have to do this.
4.) I do not like disguising my mech because it takes away from the spirit/idea of being a pilot. To a true pilot (for example, an air force pilot) your mech is not just a tool like a pocket knife or a watch or a shovel, it is what keeps you alive and protect your friends. You grow to appreciate your mechs looks just by using it and you slowly develop a relationship with it like an owner and his dog. Just like an mech pilot, an owner may give his dog a cool collar or a different leash and maybe some doggie clothes, but he doesn't rip a head off of another dog just because he likes the looks better. I feel the same towards my mechs and will only replace them with elite parts.
5.) My idea wasn't to remove mech customization but to change it so that your available mech parts still retains the most prominent features of your mech. This would add to immersion as well because the it doesn't make any sense that your can make your infiltrator look exactly like a sharpshooter, but your can't put a grenade launcher and assault rifle on your sharpshooter.
6.) Mech's look different FOR A REASON. If Meteor truly didn't care at all about class recognition, they would have made all class A look alike, as well as class B's and class C's.

[Hayseed]

timestandstill, on March 22 2014 - 01:31 PM, said:

I changed my sharpshooter to a G2 chassis, but it hasn't stopped anyone from approaching me like they would a sharpshooter. Only made the change because I hate the way sharpshooters look, not for any perceived tactical advantage.

Come to think of it I never even taken notice of my enemy's cosmetics.  Identifying which mech they're piloting has literally never been a problem, and I'm pretty new to the game.

I did the same at first, but then grew to like the sharpshooter's looks and evetually went to elite

[Beefsweat]

Ls777, on March 22 2014 - 12:58 PM, said:

Beefsweat, on March 22 2014 - 09:35 AM, said:

I'd really love to see some concrete, empirical evidence on this supposed advantage. I get the 'pay' part, but I'd be very interested to see some real proof on that 'win' part of the argument. (fun fact: last time this argument popped up the exact same thing happened and no real proof was ever brought to the table)

A video wont prove anything, there are a number of factors that could explain anything in a video. You can't videotape someones mind. Anecdotal evidence gets thrown out as the player being bad and lacking situational evidence. (which is missing the point)
What exactly are you expecting as proof_ Its not like looking like a different mech will suddenly allow you to roll servers, its only a slight tactical advantage. You said yourself that its an intended gameplay mechanic - then why am I not allowed to take advantage of it_

So you're admitting that it's only a theoretical advantage and that there's no way to actually prove the veracity of the 'pay2win tactic' claim_ Now that's novel, it's almost like there were threads on this subject that ended the exact same way!

Edited by Beefsweat, March 23 2014 - 06:30 AM.

[Ls777]

Beefsweat, on March 23 2014 - 06:29 AM, said:

So you're admitting that it's only a theoretical advantage and that there's no way to actually prove the veracity of the 'pay2win tactic' claim_ Now that's novel, it's almost like there were threads on this subject that ended the exact same way!

No, I'm not admitting that it's a theoretical advantage. I'm saying that its an actual advantage that can't be proven in video due to its nature. For example, If you had a brightly colored mech, you would be clearly be at a visual disadvantage. How would you show that disadvantage with "concrete, empirical" evidence_ A video of you getting shot at more_ how would you quantify that_ A video would be meaningless.

Even if you insist that its not an advantage at all, you yourself said its an intended gameplay mechanic. How can you justify hiding a gameplay mechanic behind a paywall_

Edited by Ls777, March 23 2014 - 07:10 PM.

[FRIBAT]

I do like the idea of adding even more options to mech with custom tubing,armor plating,anttenas etc. Most appealing idea. The more customization,the better.
But about Pay-to-Win argument about the hull of a mech,now that is realy out of place. They do fool me if i see a tech looking mech and it turns out its a scout or berserker but that can fool me only once. And i am more and more ignoring the look and more to the details like stated by other,looking at weapon types the mech is equipped with and other details. Adapt is the key. You dont change the world,the world changes You. IMO

[SandSpider]

How on earth do you get pay to win from someone changing what a mech looks like_ Does it affect their weapons_ Does it affect their style of play or any other game mechanic_

NO!

It's just a bit of decoration.

Learn the weapons, those are the most important things, not what a mech looks like.

Edited by SandSpider, April 03 2014 - 09:16 AM.

[PhasmaFelis]

nokari, on March 21 2014 - 10:37 AM, said:

PhasmaFelis, on March 21 2014 - 10:05 AM, said:

nokari, on March 20 2014 - 06:29 PM, said:

If that's pay to win, then so is using the CR-T elite parts and any of the free camos.

Uh. Except for the "pay" part, which free parts don't have, because they're, um, free. I don't think anyone has a problem with "free-to-win."

You've missed the point: The argument is that changing parts is pay-2-win because it confuses enemies visually. If using free customizations that are doing the same thing is not also considered an attempt to confuse people for a winning advantage, that's being hypocritical and having a double-standard. Ergo free and paid customizations are both the same concept and therefor paid customizations are not pay-2-win.

That makes no sense at all. Do you know what "pay-to-win" means_ The key word is "pay". Nobody thinks that just "having an advantage" is bad, as long as you can get it for free (even if it involves some grinding).

Besides which, elite parts don't confuse enemies because they're still obviously the same mech. (Even the Recruit--once you know that the tuna can is the same as the TV, you'll never expect it to be anything else.) The only thing that anyone's complained about is being able to make one mech look like another mech, which elite parts don't do. You're making up strawman arguments instead of confronting the actual arguments.

Edited by PhasmaFelis, April 03 2014 - 10:59 AM.

[SectionZ]

I just really, really want to be able to paint my Elite parts.  I would have paid dollars to paint up my Elite Recruit but no, you can't even use the Rank 6 freebie camo on it, let alone a paid one.  Considering recent patch notes saying they removed the ability to paint some of the Incinerator Elite parts, this is sadly working as intended.  That free Rank 6 Camo feels a bit pointless when you can't use it on your unlocked Mech parts too.

I can totally stand by some signature visual traits of robots,  but that is because I like a distinctive look of some kind as a personal choice.  It is why I like the Elite parts, but am so sad you can't paint them. I will admit I thought dressing the Assault up like the Recruit was funny, but even that is only because they are completely identical except for some statistical tweaks.  The only reason anyone could consider an Assault dressed like a Fred as "Cheating"  would be if you expect a Recruit to automatically be a worse robot.  <Outlandish Accusations>What, you take it easy on the Recruits_  You only take Assault's seriously_  You robot bigot.</Outlandish Accusations>

As for the rest, it hasn't really made much of a difference to me.  B and C classes sort of blur together in a fight and I pay more attention to what they are shooting and doing than what their Body looks like most of the time.  A classes are more distinctive looking in combat to my eyes, so I can't tell if it's observational bias or reality that "A classes dress up like other Mechs more than the rest".

But again, it's obvious to my Started playing around March 20th eyes what mech is what to the point it tends to make no difference.  Oh look, that "Reaper" is using a heal beam.  Or look, that "Technician" has a grenade launcher.   The only Mechs you can really confuse for others are the ones with identical secondaries, AND identical or very similar primaries.  Berserkers and Scouts may both have a TOW, but their primary weapons are vastly different from eachother.  Or would you "let" a Berserker get close to you without trying to kill it more than you would a Scout_

Which means the biggest result of Disguise would be, hold let me check...  A Vulcan equipped Grenadier and Vanguard dressing as eachother.  Now there's a stretch compared to "Oh my god that Assault is dressed like a Recruit!"

I can understand this sort of thing bugging people's sensibilities, and how if the game was different than it was dressig up like another robot would be a HUGE disguise, like dressing up "Obvious weak point shoulder" Hunchbacks as something else in Mechwarrior would be. But so far to this newbie, it's been more a curiosity than a problem.

Also, some of the fancy painted mech bodies are just cooler than others.  The Technician's "Ace" body you can barely tell it's painted.  While the Scout's body is done over the entire thing to look like a Crab.  Of COURSE people are going to buy parts that look like a different mech in that case.

[nokari]

PhasmaFelis, on April 03 2014 - 10:57 AM, said:

nokari, on March 21 2014 - 10:37 AM, said:

PhasmaFelis, on March 21 2014 - 10:05 AM, said:

nokari, on March 20 2014 - 06:29 PM, said:

If that's pay to win, then so is using the CR-T elite parts and any of the free camos.

Uh. Except for the "pay" part, which free parts don't have, because they're, um, free. I don't think anyone has a problem with "free-to-win."

You've missed the point: The argument is that changing parts is pay-2-win because it confuses enemies visually. If using free customizations that are doing the same thing is not also considered an attempt to confuse people for a winning advantage, that's being hypocritical and having a double-standard. Ergo free and paid customizations are both the same concept and therefor paid customizations are not pay-2-win.

That makes no sense at all. Do you know what "pay-to-win" means_ The key word is "pay". Nobody thinks that just "having an advantage" is bad, as long as you can get it for free (even if it involves some grinding).

Besides which, elite parts don't confuse enemies because they're still obviously the same mech. (Even the Recruit--once you know that the tuna can is the same as the TV, you'll never expect it to be anything else.) The only thing that anyone's complained about is being able to make one mech look like another mech, which elite parts don't do. You're making up strawman arguments instead of confronting the actual arguments.

You still don't seem to get it.