21 replies to this topic

[quicksilver7]

As the title suggests, I'm referring to automatic weapons such as Assault Rifle, Submachine Gun and the Vulcan. These weapons require not much skill to handle but they pack a larger DPS than other more skilled weapons, not to mention they take super long to overheat and have a thin spread.

Why do the devs want to create such an imbalanced game_ I would think they purposely want to cater these type of weapons for the newer players but have they considered what would happen since there is not much reward for players to move to weapons of more difficulty (greater DPS)_ These type of players wouldn't wanna change to a more difficult mech, trust me.

Hawken is probably the game with the 5hitie5t gameplay balance. Firstly weapon balance was fine, until they messed it up by making the automatic weapons OP. Then they introduced air dodges and all. But the greatest imbalance I feel is giving way too much DPS to the easier weapons. That's plain 5tupid.

If you (Devs) want to make newer players last longer on the battle field, you should implement proper measures to ensure huge skill mismatches don't and will not happen. Overpowering automatic weapons is not a solution.

It would be great if a HWK representative or Hughes himself could come clean to let the community know why they decided to go down this path.

#allForTransparency

[SandSpider]

Sorry, but I thought most of the weapons were quite well balanced now. Did I miss something_

[Dew]

Automatics have never been viable in HAWKEN until now, burst weapons were always king. Burst vs. sustain is balanced better than it's ever been.

tl;dr you're wrong.

[Valimer]

I do way more damage as a reaper than any mech with an automatic. Like, twice as much. And thats when im dueling half the time. Maybe you could chalk it up to be me not being able to land a TOW rocket, but even still thats not saying much for the machineguns.

Im assuming this topic is on behalf of you being on the recieving end_

[quicksilver7]

Valimer, on April 03 2014 - 06:18 AM, said:

I do way more damage as a reaper than any mech with an automatic. Like, twice as much. And thats when im dueling half the time. Maybe you could chalk it up to be me not being able to land a TOW rocket, but even still thats not saying much for the machineguns.

Im assuming this topic is on behalf of you being on the recieving end_

The most basic AR does more DPS than the reaper's weapons. I guess you don't know what you're talking about. Why don't you draw up an excel sheet and calculate the DPS for each weapon.

https://community.pl...atch-notes-r332
http://i.imgur.com/OCSYi2l.png

I would like to hear from a HWK rep on this.

[Stingz]

[SMC is making AR and Vulcan look bad in comparison.] SMC probably needs some tweaking, while AR and Vulcan need an overhaul of stats.

Also Hawkins-RPR is an AR with SMC accuracy, same DPS. (Accuracy Overdrive means Laser-AR, keep that in mind)

Edited by Stingz, April 03 2014 - 07:18 AM.

[quicksilver7]

Stingz, on April 03 2014 - 06:39 AM, said:

[SMC is making AR and Vulcan look bad in comparison.] SMC probably needs some tweaking, while AR and Vulcan need an overhaul of stats.

Also Hawkins-RPR is an AR with SMC accuracy, same DPS. (Accuracy Overdrive means Laser-AR, keep that in mind)

Exactly what I meant.

DEVS_

[kanamisan]

I would like to point something out. sustained automatic weapons fall victim to los problems, that is if your target ducks into cover for any period of time, you lose out on some of your damage, with a burst weapon like the flak, you can trade a moments worth of sustained damage for one of your burst hits. and then get back into cover while its reloading. then hit them again. doing so, you can actually trade damage more effectively then a sustained weapon can. so if your just going to stand out in the open and let them shoot you with an ar or smc while you try to shoot them back with a flak cannon, dont expect anything good to happen. this is one of the basic tactics you need to do well.

[quicksilver7]

kanamisan, on April 03 2014 - 05:11 PM, said:

I would like to point something out. sustained automatic weapons fall victim to los problems, that is if your target ducks into cover for any period of time, you lose out on some of your damage, with a burst weapon like the flak, you can trade a moments worth of sustained damage for one of your burst hits. and then get back into cover while its reloading. then hit them again. doing so, you can actually trade damage more effectively then a sustained weapon can. so if your just going to stand out in the open and let them shoot you with an ar or smc while you try to shoot them back with a flak cannon, dont expect anything good to happen. this is one of the basic tactics you need to do well.

Yes everyone knows that, but everyone also knows that there are certain areas only where the above is true. Most of the maps are too open for these kind of combat.

[Hell_Diguner]

I can't think of a single first-person shooter where the high-burst-damage weapons (which are usually harder to use) have better dps than the sustained-fire-weapons. In every game I'm aware of, the whole point of burst damage weapons is you're more effective in certain situations, and you try to play the game in such a way that every time you encounter an enemy it's in one of those situations where you have the advantage. Risk/reward, you know_

Hawken has a longer TTK than most FPS games, but I believe the principle still holds true.

[LoC_TR]

The only reason I die in a Raider is because of SMC.

[Quwin]

I don't know, seeing it action myself it doesn't seem all that bad. It is a surprise what the fuzzy bunny experience when your life bar starts getting chopped like hell, and its pretty annoying when they just sort of walk up in your face like two kids spraying eachother with hoses, but it seems pretty simple to get around depending on class. B class, well you'll probably have one too so just get face to face and see who goes down first with a bit of maneuvering. A class, well you're an A class you shouldn't be getting shot up that much. C class is still strong enough to tank and, with good aim, deal out even more damage than they do. And seeing how this game is about as much about movement as it is about finding cover, with this you'll just be a little bit more confident about taking on something else and not feel like you're poking them with a toothpick. You'll still die, but not with a toothpick.

Edited by Quwin, April 03 2014 - 11:32 PM.

[Valimer]

quicksilver7, on April 03 2014 - 06:38 AM, said:

Valimer, on April 03 2014 - 06:18 AM, said:

I do way more damage as a reaper than any mech with an automatic. Like, twice as much. And thats when im dueling half the time. Maybe you could chalk it up to be me not being able to land a TOW rocket, but even still thats not saying much for the machineguns.

Im assuming this topic is on behalf of you being on the recieving end_

The most basic AR does more DPS than the reaper's weapons. I guess you don't know what you're talking about. Why don't you draw up an excel sheet and calculate the DPS for each weapon.

https://community.pl...atch-notes-r332
http://i.imgur.com/OCSYi2l.png

I would like to hear from a HWK rep on this.

Of course on paper it's going to have high DPS, but in reality the machine guns effective DPS is lower. You aren't going to hit with literally every bullet, which is what that stat on the paper means. The DPS in game is lower than that on the paper unless you have some sort of aim hack and can hit LITERALLY every single bullet (you can't).

[FakeName]

Increase heating and readd weapon spread in midair and when firing for too long without a break.
The dmg remains the same but you have tradeoffs, best solution for every side.

[nepacaka]

three letters...
SMG

Quote

The only reason I die in a Raider is because of SMC.

when i play flak-brawler against smg-cupcake, i just die faster in cqc
higher dps, good range, less heat...too much for one weapon

Edited by nepacaka, April 04 2014 - 03:44 AM.

[kanamisan]

quicksilver7, on April 03 2014 - 09:57 PM, said:

kanamisan, on April 03 2014 - 05:11 PM, said:

I would like to point something out. sustained automatic weapons fall victim to los problems, that is if your target ducks into cover for any period of time, you lose out on some of your damage, with a burst weapon like the flak, you can trade a moments worth of sustained damage for one of your burst hits. and then get back into cover while its reloading. then hit them again. doing so, you can actually trade damage more effectively then a sustained weapon can. so if your just going to stand out in the open and let them shoot you with an ar or smc while you try to shoot them back with a flak cannon, dont expect anything good to happen. this is one of the basic tactics you need to do well.

Yes everyone knows that, but everyone also knows that there are certain areas only where the above is true. Most of the maps are too open for these kind of combat.

are you playing the same game I am.. there is cover everywhere, best part, this is a team game, if you are getting to shot up, dodge behind other players. so unless your ramboing everywhere and staying away from cover. I call bs.  all you have to do is pay attention. yes there are some areas that are open. but there are many other routes around. for example, on uptown, yes the bridges in the center are exposed, they are exposed for a reason. you have lots of cover down below and plenty on each of the lower canon paths, you have lots of cover on each side of the bridge. and on the weird back side area, so much cover (though I rarely see it getting used) what about frontlines. buildings and hidyholes everywhere. prosk, lots of ground level cover and some sniping spots that have some cover as well. a few open areas with trenchs to duck down into if you need them. wreckage, so many corners and hallways. last echo, lots of hills and trees everywhere to hide behind. even basar, so many buildings. and even maps like bunker, while it does not give you that much cover from arty style weapons, there are so many spots to hide from ar's that its not even funny.

[craftydus]

LoC_TR, on April 03 2014 - 10:52 PM, said:

The only reason I die in a Raider is because of SMC.

[font=times new roman,times,serif]not sure if serious..[/font]

[nepacaka]

craftydus, on April 04 2014 - 08:55 AM, said:

LoC_TR, on April 03 2014 - 10:52 PM, said:

The only reason I die in a Raider is because of SMC.

not sure if serious..

true. SMC is really strong now.
I use it against higher-skill enemies, against which the other weapons I would not have a chance. but if high-skill opponents use SMC against me...I still have no chance :Ъ

also, i try AR and SMC on assault. SMC just better in most of cases

Edited by nepacaka, April 04 2014 - 12:13 PM.

[SuperSpartacus]

LOL I love how you posted that spreadsheet of stats but completely fail to look at the falloff ranges_ Saying the SMC can out damage the AM-SAR at medium range is a fuzzy bunny joke, past 110m you're plinking 3.5 dmg per shot while the AM-SAR doesn't even fall off from 30 damage until past 100m. YOU'RE STUPID.

Maybe you don't understand what damage falloff is_ SMC is only a very effective weapon at >~90m, which it should be. Shotguns are more effective at CQC, and the AR is more of a consistent choice, being slightly less powerful at close range and signifigantly more powerful at ranges above 100m, though still less powerful then the AM-SAR at even longer ranges of >200m   fThe AM-SAR's primary advantage is the high distance it begins it's falloff. It does absurd damage from 120-~200m but actually ends up doing less dps then the AR after the full falloff at 250m. Here, have some math instead of random accusations of "OP"

POSSIBLE (assuming 100% accuracy, which is another factor the SMC is weaker then the AR and AM in) DPS
SMC: (1/.115) = 8.7 shots/sec BASE DAM: 12.45 END DAM: 3.5   50m-160m 110 differential
50m: (1/.115) * 12.45 = 108.261 DPS
105m (easier to calculate as it's halfway between falloffs) : (1/.115) * ((12.45-3.5)*(55/110)+3.5) = 69.3478 DPS
160m: (1/.115) * 3.5 = 30.43478 DPS
Rate of Heat: (1/.115) * .67 = 5.826 H/s

AR: (1/.2) = 5 shots/sec BASE: 19.8 END: 6.5 60-200m, 140 differential
60m: 5 * 19.8 = 99 DPS (about 10 less base dps then SMC)
130m (halfway falloff) : 5 * ((19.8-6.5)*(70/140)+6.5) = 65.75 DPS
200m: 5 * 6.5 = 32.5 DPS
Rate of heat: 5 * 1.4 = 7 H/s

AM-SAR: (1/.33) = 3.03 shots/sec BASE: 30.25 END: 10.5 120-250m 130 diff.
120m: (1/.33) * 30.25 = 91.667 dps (about 150% of the dps of SMC/AR at this range)
185m (halfway falloff): (1/.33)*((30.25-10.5)*(65/130)+10.5) = 61.7424 DPS (still outdamages AR at 185 signifigantly)
250m: (1/.33) * 10.5 = 31.818 dps. (LOSES DPS ADVANTAGE TO A/R past ~250, Still better then SMG)
Rate of heat: (1/.33) * 2.035 = 6.167 H/s

As you can see, the SMC and AR attain similar dps in lower ~100 range. up to 120m, the AM-SAR will have FULL damage, beating the AR/SMC by about 50% dps in that range. (120m dps for AM is 91.667, 130m for AR is 65.75, 105m for SMC is only 69)

The only real problems I'm seeing with this calculation is that the AM-SAR actually does LESS dmg then the A/R does at very long ranges, but that's compensated by the fact that the AM rips people up in the middle 100 ranges before falloff becomes an issue for it.

tl;dr nah, SMC has highest base DPS, but has lowest dps past 100m

In my opinion, these three weapons are very well balanced against each other. The only suggestion I might have is to slightly increase the spread on the smg to make it even less effective at longer ranges, but it is already out-dpsed there by both the AR and AM. A nerf to the heat generation of the SMC could be reasonable, as I think that's a major reason many people choose it over the AR.

Edited by SuperSpartacus, April 04 2014 - 01:42 PM.

[nepacaka]

Quote

As you can see, the SMC and AR attain similar dps in lower ~100 ranges

true, but 80% all fight is at a distance less than 100 meters... =/
And even if the distance is greater, at the current speed rate it pretty easily to stay closer. if u try gain little (a little!) advantage in DPS with AR u need runaway from enemy and stay in 100m range.
thats mean, what SMC have a incredible push ability compared to AR.
if u try attack AA on with AR, u start have a disadvantage in DPS, cuz enemy with SMC deal more damage to you.

SMC uses a lot of bullets with low damage, so a miss for him less significant, than miss from  SA Hawkins for example.

SMC less heat generation = more time to shoot = more damage

* just for information.
All combat positions viewed from the point of AA on the FrontLine about ~100m or less (not to mention the smaller maps). This means that the SMC is almost always better than the AR at current moment. see_

Your calculations are correct, but yet only in teory. In fact, it is a very powerful weapon, and I'm afraid of him on flak-brawler. if i miss one shot in cupcake - i'm just die faster.

I used it before ascension, it was a weapon for close fighting only. Now it is not, it is devastating, even at medium ranges, I do not know why, but it is much stronger than it was before. too much. IMHO, main problem - deleted weapon spread.
Previously, almost no one used the SMC. Now it is used by almost all irrespective of the mech (cupcake/assault/bers). And I use SMC sometimes too.

I Demand:
- increase heat generation (and create it like busrt weapon, a lot of dmg, but not so long)
or
- little increase spread (something to make it less threatening for medium distances)
or
- is banal reduce DPS...i talked about little nerf. not nerf into oblivion. just a little... -1 or -2 DPS

Edited by nepacaka, April 04 2014 - 02:08 PM.