65 replies to this topic

[AsianJoyKiller]

MA over Siege because see Leon's or Xacius's posts.
MA over TDM because TDM has already been done, and I think objective modes are more interesting to watch.

MA isn't the greatest for competitive play, but it's a damn sight better than Siege. At face value, it's simpler but that works to it's benefit allowing players to create depth through strategy and tactics, while Siege's gimmicky forced-depth mechanics end up making it more rigid and actually reduce the depth of available strategy and tactics.

Sylhiri, on August 10 2014 - 04:16 PM, said:

Did Xacius just pull a AJK_

He didn't break it up into enough mini-quotes. Also, not enough usage of the words "proof", "evidence" or some form of "fallacy".

[GaryFlyAndTheGirls]

I like either MA or Seige. I'll play whatever the community wants.
It's not really a thing of Right and Wrong. It's whatever you guys want to do.
As an old DoD kid, MA is Hawken's closest example. My friends from TPG DoD that play Hawken adapt instantaneously to it.
But my time playing with, and learning from the Seigehounds at vR, I can appreciate that game mode.
Which for me is unique to Hawken.
I'd have a fun time playing a season of either.

[Xacius]

Sylhiri, on August 10 2014 - 04:16 PM, said:

Did Xacius just pull a AJK_

He's not the only one capable of breaking down poor arguments, or pointing out a lack of evidence.

Personally, I think the competitive scene should wait until a new mode comes out before starting another league.  Isn't Siege 2.0 still in the works_

Edited by Xacius, August 11 2014 - 12:12 AM.

[Leonhardt]

Xacius, on August 11 2014 - 12:06 AM, said:

Personally, I think the competitive scene should wait until a new mode comes out before starting another league.  Isn't Siege 2.0 still in the works_

It has been for a while. Nobody has heard any news on that front though. If they were staying super quiet about Siege 2.0 and it was released in the coming weeks I would be overjoyed provided its a game mode with real competitive depth.

[shosca]

Siege on Bunker

One eu tree/aa to rule them all...

Edited by shosca, August 11 2014 - 08:11 AM.

[CounterlogicMan]

shosca, on August 11 2014 - 07:31 AM, said:

Siege on Bunker

gtfo


MA definitely would be my choice. It will mix things up, prevent turtling borefests, closely resembles competitive modes in other games, and requires more strategy but is easy to follow from a viewers perspective.

TDM was really not that fun to watch from a viewers prospective. From the outside perspective it looked like it was all about getting ahead by a few kills then turtling up or running away to burn time. The set up of most maps, I feel, supports defenders of a position heavily which facilitates this sort of strategy. That doesn't make a good viewing experience and from the scrims I played with the TPG teams, it really isn't all that fun either. To get ahead a few kills then just back off and wait around that is.

MA is akin to battlefields domination mode, which is played in the esl, and halo's dominion. Both extremely fun, in my opinon, and fast paced game modes that spread action around the map. It screams competitive mode.

Side Note: WTB spectator mode so people can commentate on TPG games.

Edited by CounterlogicMan, August 11 2014 - 08:17 AM.

[breadeffect]

As it stands right now, I'd much prefer having anything but Siege for this league season.  I see no reason why we would go commit to playing possible 2 hour long league matches.  As for between TDM and MA; personally I like TDM still, but MA at least brings a extra objective to the table, thus allowing more strategy to be involved when moving around the map rather than death ball and hold a singular position.  Honestly though, Bunker I'd love to have as an MA map rather than see it go.  Its a frustrating map, sure, but I enjoy the triangular MA maps more anyways. For a change of pace, I'd like to at least do the preseason of MA and see how that goes.  Make a decision on what gamemode we would like at the end of the preseason though.

[EliteShooter]

Xacius, on August 10 2014 - 03:36 PM, said:

EliteShooter uses "post on forums."
It's not very effective.

... and you're very humble ...

[EliteShooter]

I mean, it's a fact that after all, TPG admins might select TDM again, cuz that's what the high tier teams are best at. Even MA is much closer to TDM than siege, so it will still be a good option for them. NO matter what I will say, you all select what's doubtable about my posts, and then start talking about them like they're their core, or the most important part of it.


What you people have to understand is that I don't have the language or the time to sum up all my takes on the mode, ones accumulated from hundreds of games. You all know that siege is the UNIQUE hawken gamemode, and I truly believe that the only problem with it might be the possible very long gametime.

Xacius, on August 11 2014 - 12:06 AM, said:

Personally, I think the competitive scene should wait until a new mode comes out before starting another league.

Or until you get your team back_ Or they're back already_

[EliteShooter]

AsianJoyKiller, on August 10 2014 - 04:21 PM, said:

MA isn't the greatest for competitive play, but it's a damn sight better than Siege. At face value, it's simpler but that works to it's benefit allowing players to create depth through strategy and tactics, while Siege's gimmicky forced-depth mechanics end up making it more rigid and actually reduce the depth of available strategy and tactics.

Simpler objectives means more killing, more TDM, I guess that's what they want.

[EliteShooter]

my 2 cents; in the most part, people who posted their suggestions here are from the top teams, and those are the ones that will after all decide everything. Obviously other people explained their POVs but, in the end, it's gonna come down to what people from Omni, SASC, vanguard, and HFC want. Other players from other teams don't even bother.

[Xacius]

EliteShooter, on August 15 2014 - 02:29 PM, said:

I mean, it's a fact that after all, TPG admins might select TDM again, cuz that's what the high tier teams are best at. Even MA is much closer to TDM than siege, so it will still be a good option for them. NO matter what I will say, you all select what's doubtable about my posts, and then start talking about them like they're their core, or the most important part of it.

What you people have to understand is that I don't have the language or the time to sum up all my takes on the mode, ones accumulated from hundreds of games. You all know that siege is the UNIQUE hawken gamemode, and I truly believe that the only problem with it might be the possible very long gametime.

You miss the point, again.  We're not missing what you're saying.  We're taking what you're saying and we're discussing how it either A. doesn't apply or B. needs evidence.  Give us some reasoning to back up your claims, and then we might get a real discussion underway.  

Simply because it's "unique to Hawken," doesn't mean it's a competitively viable mode.  

EliteShooter, on August 15 2014 - 02:29 PM, said:

Xacius, on August 11 2014 - 12:06 AM, said:

Personally, I think the competitive scene should wait until a new mode comes out before starting another league.

Or until you get your team back_ Or they're back already_

I have a team.

[EliteShooter]

Xacius, on August 10 2014 - 03:36 PM, said:

EliteShooter, on August 10 2014 - 01:36 PM, said:

Ker4u, on August 10 2014 - 01:28 PM, said:

Quote

My siege strategy on 90% of maps will not be to hold the AA no once we have the AA we will camp the most direct routes to the AA and launch ships at your team until we win

You won't be able to defend  aa in 4v6, and  collect energy at the same time, especially in late game when you need 800+ eu to launch.

Recently i won a siege game where my team never fully had aa.
We launched ships faster, made ambushes on enemy collectors forcing  main stack to leave aa, and than had few free missile launches, killing turrets on ship early, but always lost it afterwards since their team had better individual players. This way their base got damaged  while only  single ship was launched. And just by suicide rushing the aa  we won on 7th ship.
Difference in regions regarding siege is quite interesting actually, much more popular in europe, where it's not rare when all players are 2000~ mmr, and in use it's mostly  tdming beginners

Totally right. Good american players rarely play siege, and they look at it from one angle, a simple look that has no depth, the kind of look the considers it simple and boring, a look that takes away the strategical part and considers it a repetitive process, a one-way to be done kind of mode. And that's all false.

1. "Good american players rarely play siege..."
Here, you're generalizing with no real evidence to back up your claims.  

Oh, almost forgot about this. Let's see. If you guys aren't lazy enough, I'd love to see the following people (who are elite players that played in the TPG and posted here) to tell us how many siege games they played:
OmegaNull
_incitatus
ThirdEye
Loc_TR
Xacius
Daronicus
Leonhardt
CounterlogicMan
breadeffect



I and my poor math can make an average number of how many siege games those great players played. And then compare it with the noob eliteshooter.

I expect the average to be much smaller than the number of siege games I played, and that's why the way I look at it is very different from what you guys do.

Xacius, on August 15 2014 - 03:01 PM, said:

I have a team.

Cool, I expect great matches next year then.

[Leonhardt]

EliteShooter, on August 15 2014 - 02:39 PM, said:

my 2 cents; in the most part, people who posted their suggestions here are from the top teams, and those are the ones that will after all decide everything. Obviously other people explained their POVs but, in the end, it's gonna come down to what people from Omni, SASC, vanguard, and HFC want. Other players from other teams don't even bother.

This is an open forum for discussion about gametype for the second season. Claiming that those who speak up will make the decision and blaming them for others non-action is not only illogical, but down right rude. I don't know why you feel there is a conspiracy going on, but I assure you there is not. If the vast majority of players who are going to play in the league would prefer a certain game mode then that is what will be chosen.

Their failure to act is nobodies fault, but their own. If they disagree then this is an open and friendly environment for them to provide their opinion on the matter as they are entitled to do by being a player in the league.

EliteShooter, on August 15 2014 - 03:09 PM, said:

Oh, almost forgot about this. Let's see. If you guys aren't lazy enough, I'd love to see the following people (who are elite players that played in the TPG and posted here) to tell us how many siege games they played:

If we are counting from when siege was first put into Hawken I have at least over 300 games in the mode. I can't give you an exact count since they wiped the stats. Point being I have played my fair share of siege. I do not have a lack of experience with the game mode.

Edited by Leonhardt, August 15 2014 - 03:30 PM.

[EliteShooter]

And you all say there's strategy in MA, but I don't see how. It's just what silos to chose, capture or defend. When the targeted positions are constently changing, you can't apply team positioning schemes, and you aren't in need of managing the objective execution timing, or setup roles for members but probably leave a heavy to guard a silo, or send a light to capture an uncontested one.

Leon asked why I don't break it down, and I really can't, first because of time, second because I can't tell you all my secret strategies (I hear you laughing right now, but I don't care), and third because my non-native english isn't good enough to transform all what I learned in a long time of playing to text, it seems tedious to me, and not even worth it.


It's simple but you people are arrogant. If we play 3 pre-season games, each can be of a certain mode (MA, TDM, SG) and then people can vote. Obviously most of you already made up their minds, so I don't expect enough transparency from anyone, but, you never know.


I ultimately sill believe most people who posted here don't play SG nearly as much as they play other modes. I wish they did but, I can't help it.

I once watched a scrim of 2 ELITE teams playing siege, and it was so obvious that my old friends I used to play with are much better in siege than those great players (especially spliff_craven and charcoal, 2 smart siege lovers, with great experience and crafty siege approaches).

[EliteShooter]

Leonhardt, on August 15 2014 - 03:18 PM, said:

open and friendly environment for them to provide their opinion on the matter as they are entitled to do by being a player in the league.

Xacius, on August 10 2014 - 03:36 PM, said:

EliteShooter uses "post on forums."
It's not very effective.

Oh yea, I totally believe you.

[Leonhardt]

EliteShooter, on August 15 2014 - 03:23 PM, said:

Leonhardt, on August 15 2014 - 03:18 PM, said:

open and friendly environment for them to provide their opinion on the matter as they are entitled to do by being a player in the league.

Xacius, on August 10 2014 - 03:36 PM, said:

EliteShooter uses "post on forums."
It's not very effective.

Oh yea, I totally believe you.

When you put out negative responses you will get negative reactions. Do not point to your conversation with Xacius that only escalated due to your constant negative behavior as "proof" of this being a closed forum. This is an open and friendly environment even though you may choose to make it negative per your reactions to others posts.

Edited by Leonhardt, August 15 2014 - 03:33 PM.

[EliteShooter]

Leonhardt, on August 15 2014 - 03:18 PM, said:

I don't know why you feel there is a conspiracy going on, but I assure you there is not.

I know, nept has opened the discussion for us, but after all, the top teams want the same thing, and their ideas are just automatically more respected than others. That's not any conspiracy, it's just in all of us, we favor what the stronger wants and thinks.

Leonhardt, on August 15 2014 - 03:33 PM, said:

When you put out negative responses

Which ones_

[Leonhardt]

EliteShooter, on August 15 2014 - 03:35 PM, said:

Leonhardt, on August 15 2014 - 03:18 PM, said:

I don't know why you feel there is a conspiracy going on, but I assure you there is not.

I know, nept has opened the discussion for us, but after all, the top teams want the same thing, and their ideas are just automatically more respected than others. That's not any conspiracy, it's just in all of us, we favor what the stronger wants and thinks.

We all play in the league equally. Who plays "better" than others has no baring on the decision or the facts of the discussion unless you let it. Your opinion is just as valid as mine or anyone else who has posted or will post in this topic. You are also charged with providing logical arguments to back up your claims just like anyone else. I may agree with AJK or Xacius on a few points regarding this subject, but that does not mean that I automatically agree with them because of their status as players. What is important to me is that their experiences and points match my own. Provide logical arguments that I can resonate with and I will change my position and its likely so will others provided you are convincing enough.

EliteShooter, on August 15 2014 - 03:35 PM, said:

Leonhardt, on August 15 2014 - 03:33 PM, said:

When you put out negative responses

Which ones_

EliteShooter, on August 10 2014 - 01:36 PM, said:

Totally right. Good american players rarely play siege, and they look at it from one angle, a simple look that has no depth, the kind of look the considers it simple and boring, a look that takes away the strategical part and considers it a repetitive process, a one-way to be done kind of mode. And that's all false.

EliteShooter, on August 10 2014 - 01:36 PM, said:

If you all chose MA then be it, people hate to think really, all they want is keep boosting all over the place, and killing separated groups ... I know how everyone thinks ... meh ...

EliteShooter, on August 15 2014 - 02:20 PM, said:

... and you're very humble ...
*Admittedly provoked, but still negative none the less.*

EliteShooter, on August 15 2014 - 03:23 PM, said:

Oh yea, I totally believe you.
*Negative response to me that I did not reply negatively to.*

EliteShooter, on August 15 2014 - 03:21 PM, said:

It's simple but you people are arrogant.

EliteShooter, on August 15 2014 - 02:29 PM, said:

I mean, it's a fact that after all, TPG admins might select TDM again, cuz that's what the high tier teams are best at. Even MA is much closer to TDM than siege, so it will still be a good option for them. NO matter what I will say, you all select what's doubtable about my posts, and then start talking about them like they're their core, or the most important part of it.

EliteShooter, on August 15 2014 - 02:29 PM, said:

Xacius, on August 11 2014 - 12:06 AM, said:

Personally, I think the competitive scene should wait until a new mode comes out before starting another league.

Or until you get your team back_ Or they're back already_

Now all that being said I understand that there is a language barrier. Actions speak louder than words so if you want to show me how strategical siege is would you be willing to set up a scrim with Omni_ You can choose the map we have a server to access and everything else. We can work out a time that is convenient I understand that your time zone is rather far away from ours.

[Sylhiri]

I'm not seeing how the number of Siege games a person plays gives them more insight into the mode past a certain number of matches.