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#1 ThatDamnedBoedy

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Posted August 22 2014 - 12:19 AM

Thing 1:  64-bit client - you're losing a good amount registers on the CPU by staying 32-bit.  In addition to that is probably memory based performance by going to 64-bit.  Yes I understand its *hard* and that information goes into the CPU in bigger chunks in 64-bit but it still should give you more performance.  

I feel most games have failed to really push existing hardware for all it is worth...simply relying on newer hardware to make up for the lack of forward thinking in the coding world.

Thing 2:  AMD Mantle API support.  50%+ of the world runs around on AMD platforms be they mobile, desktop or workstation including their APU's.  Mantle promises more performance and control through direct hardware access.  We have NVIDIA's PhysX and other stuff...why no love for AMD_  Are their drivers simply that fuzzy bunny or what_  Does NVIDIA offer better support to developers_

Edited by ThatDamnedBoedy, August 22 2014 - 12:20 AM.


#2 Amidatelion

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Posted August 22 2014 - 12:49 AM

View PostThatDamnedBoedy, on August 22 2014 - 12:19 AM, said:

Thing 1:  64-bit client - you're losing a good amount registers on the CPU by staying 32-bit.  In addition to that is probably memory based performance by going to 64-bit.  Yes I understand its *hard* and that information goes into the CPU in bigger chunks in 64-bit but it still should give you more performance.  

I feel most games have failed to really push existing hardware for all it is worth...simply relying on newer hardware to make up for the lack of forward thinking in the coding world.

Absolutely agreed.

View PostThatDamnedBoedy, on August 22 2014 - 12:19 AM, said:

Thing 2:  AMD Mantle API support.  50%+ of the world runs around on AMD platforms be they mobile, desktop or workstation including their APU's.  Mantle promises more performance and control through direct hardware access.  We have NVIDIA's PhysX and other stuff...why no love for AMD_  Are their drivers simply that fuzzy bunny or what_  Does NVIDIA offer better support to developers_

Mantle has been made largely pointless by DirectX 12 updates. It's proprietary and it's 1st on the market - never a good sign for longevity or applicability. I have no idea about developer support. Nvidia might make their own proprietary version, but realistically it just makes more sense to tweak the DirectX 12 usages when it comes out. Also, Nvidia moved to make PhysX devkit much faster than AMD is looking to make Mantle open. In the mean time, sure, the devs could start to support Mantle, but honestly, there is just so goddamn much else to do that it would be a tiny gain, especially with AMD's share of the market dropping. I don't think it's had 50% since I built my Crossfire rig.

But yeah, I could deal with more developers rolling out 64-bit clients. I can count the number of games with it off the top of my head on the fingers of one hand.

#3 nokari

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Posted August 22 2014 - 01:03 AM

View PostThatDamnedBoedy, on August 22 2014 - 12:19 AM, said:

Thing 2:  AMD Mantle API support.  50%+ of the world runs around on AMD platforms be they mobile, desktop or workstation including their APU's.  Mantle promises more performance and control through direct hardware access.  We have NVIDIA's PhysX and other stuff...why no love for AMD_  Are their drivers simply that fuzzy bunny or what_  Does NVIDIA offer better support to developers_

1) Mobile devices are irrelevant. This is a PC-only game that won't be converted to mobile.
2) As is clearly plastered everywhere, Hawken is sponsored/partnered with Nvidia. So while they do support AMD graphic cards like every other game, don't ever expect them to give anything other than Nvidia technology preferential treatment.

Edited by nokari, August 22 2014 - 01:05 AM.

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#4 ThatDamnedBoedy

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Posted August 22 2014 - 01:16 AM

View Postnokari, on August 22 2014 - 01:03 AM, said:

View PostThatDamnedBoedy, on August 22 2014 - 12:19 AM, said:

Thing 2:  AMD Mantle API support.  50%+ of the world runs around on AMD platforms be they mobile, desktop or workstation including their APU's.  Mantle promises more performance and control through direct hardware access.  We have NVIDIA's PhysX and other stuff...why no love for AMD_  Are their drivers simply that fuzzy bunny or what_  Does NVIDIA offer better support to developers_

1) Mobile devices are irrelevant. This is a PC-only game that won't be converted to mobile.
2) As is clearly plastered everywhere, Hawken is sponsored/partnered with Nvidia. So while they do support AMD graphic cards like every other game, don't ever expect them to give anything other than Nvidia technology preferential treatment.

*sigh*

#5 hendman

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Posted August 22 2014 - 01:23 AM

View PostThatDamnedBoedy, on August 22 2014 - 12:19 AM, said:

Thing 1:  64-bit client - you're losing a good amount registers on the CPU by staying 32-bit.  In addition to that is probably memory based performance by going to 64-bit.  Yes I understand its *hard* and that information goes into the CPU in bigger chunks in 64-bit but it still should give you more performance.  

I feel most games have failed to really push existing hardware for all it is worth...simply relying on newer hardware to make up for the lack of forward thinking in the coding world.


The Unreal 3 engine doesn't support 64-bit.

#6 SS396

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Posted August 22 2014 - 01:59 AM

View PostThatDamnedBoedy, on August 22 2014 - 12:19 AM, said:

Thing 1:  64-bit client - you're losing a good amount registers on the CPU by staying 32-bit.  In addition to that is probably memory based performance by going to 64-bit.  Yes I understand its *hard* and that information goes into the CPU in bigger chunks in 64-bit but it still should give you more performance.  
Sorry, but you are displaying a classic misnomer.

64-bit compared to 32-bit code has zero effect on CPU performance.  Having/using more registers has nothing to do with increasing performance.  In fact 64-bit compiled code is larger than in 32-bit compiled code, mostly because the registers, pointers, and structures are larger due to their larger/longer addresses.

The only benefit to using 64-bits over 32-bits is you can count to (2^63)-1 compared to (2^31)-1 and access a theoretical limit of 16 exabytes (which in reality hasn't happened yet) of memory compared to maximum of 4 gigabytes.

Again memory performance between 64-bit and 32-bit is identical on the same system.  Why do you ask_  The answer is because in both cases its running on the same internal bus.  

View PostThatDamnedBoedy, on August 22 2014 - 12:19 AM, said:

I feel most games have failed to really push existing hardware for all it is worth...simply relying on newer hardware to make up for the lack of forward thinking in the coding world.

Don't blame the programmer, blame the compiler.

View PostThatDamnedBoedy, on August 22 2014 - 12:19 AM, said:

Thing 2:  AMD Mantle API support.  50%+ of the world runs around on AMD platforms be they mobile, desktop or workstation including their APU's.  Mantle promises more performance and control through direct hardware access.  We have NVIDIA's PhysX and other stuff...why no love for AMD_  Are their drivers simply that fuzzy bunny or what_  Does NVIDIA offer better support to developers_

As far as the Nvidia vs AMD, No Comment.  I'm not even going to go there.

Edited by SS396, August 22 2014 - 02:00 AM.

# while true; do echo "Post"; done

#7 ThatDamnedBoedy

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Posted August 22 2014 - 02:37 AM

There are certain performance gains to be had by accessing more registers and writing larger chunks of data per clock cycle.  Otherwise there would be no point aside from the amount of system RAM you can address and Hard Drive space that can be logically assigned.

And you are correct about the compiler...my bad.  So does a 64-bit compiler cost more_  Or take too long to do the job_  Or are there no good ones on the market for 64-bit_  I'm curious about the possibilities.

#8 TwentyFirstPilot

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Posted August 22 2014 - 06:14 AM

That's a helpful title you have here.

Aspiring Professional Yolodriver


View PostAmidatelion, on May 24 2014 - 01:36 AM, said:

Yeah, but dude, we are at 1750. As much as we would like to be Professional Yolodrivers like you [Meraple] and Lightangel112, we're not there yet. It's something to aspire to, sure, but there's a lot of ground to cover.

View Postcomic_sans, on October 31 2014 - 05:50 PM, said:

SS, you wanna fight me_  I'm druuuuuunk_____ You could maybe win_!!

#9 SS396

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Posted August 22 2014 - 09:58 PM

View PostThatDamnedBoedy, on August 22 2014 - 02:37 AM, said:

There are certain performance gains to be had by accessing more registers and writing larger chunks of data per clock cycle.  Otherwise there would be no point aside from the amount of system RAM you can address and Hard Drive space that can be logically assigned.

Well, the only programs that respond well in terms of an increase in performance to 64-bit compiling are ones that have what is termed a heavy "register pressure".  Those programs are usually scientific in nature and are normally composed of a number of deeply nested loops or recursion.  Games and normal everyday apps don't seem to respond if at all, which is why I said what I said earlier and not seeing an increase in performance.  I guess in a way, my statement about using more registers does not increase performance is false.  Some applications benefit from the use of more registers and some don't.  For every case, you can find one that says theres an increase, you can find another that says there is no increase.

One of the major issues is since the register size has doubled from 4 bytes to 8 bytes, the number of registers you can hold in the CPU cache is effectively cut in half.  So having to swap that out ends up taking time and costing a decrease in performance.

As far as clocks per instructions or instructions per clock, thats entirely dependent on the CPU architecture regardless of the choice of bits.


View PostThatDamnedBoedy, on August 22 2014 - 02:37 AM, said:

And you are correct about the compiler...my bad.  So does a 64-bit compiler cost more_  Or take too long to do the job_  Or are there no good ones on the market for 64-bit_  I'm curious about the possibilities.

I don't really think any company charges more for a 64-bit compiler, and don't think that they take noticeably longer to compile.  I'm sure its a tad bit longer because of the longer address lengths, and a bit more swapping of registers, but like I said, I doubt its noticeable and longer than a few minutes.  I really don't have any experience testing the difference myself, I've never actually tried and timed it.  I just knew that the size of the program was larger KB wise, and that a 64-bit application takes up more memory.

Its just that its all up to the compiler to optimize the code, and if it does a cruddy job at it, then you won't see any good results in your program.  Thats why I said blame the compiler.  I've seen bad compilers try to optimize code and fail badly causing a task exception.  When I removed the optimizations flag and recompiled, I had no more issues.

Most do their job well, and some are better than others, but again for everyday normal computing or game playing, its not really worth squeezing a few nanoseconds out, unless you recall that code over and over a few million times.

I think that if Hawken did have a 64-bit version, it would likely only see an increase in performance due to the fact it has access to more memory space.
# while true; do echo "Post"; done

#10 Onstrava

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Posted August 22 2014 - 11:51 PM

Well I'm all ways for more performance, I'm not sure what kind of "jump in performance" I would get really. I'm using an old 460gtx on a ASUS labtop so yeeaaaaa, I'm not expecting miracles here. Otherwise I can play the game just fine really, only last eco gives me fps issues  sometimes.

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#11 Amidatelion

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Posted August 23 2014 - 12:04 AM

View PostOnstrava, on August 22 2014 - 11:51 PM, said:

Well I'm all ways for more performance, I'm not sure what kind of "jump in performance" I would get really. I'm using an old 460gtx on a ASUS labtop so yeeaaaaa, I'm not expecting miracles here. Otherwise I can play the game just fine really, only last eco gives me fps issues  sometimes.

Really_ My laptop's using a 560M and Wreckage gives me problems, but not Last Eco, really.

#12 Onstrava

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Posted August 23 2014 - 12:11 AM

View PostAmidatelion, on August 23 2014 - 12:04 AM, said:

View PostOnstrava, on August 22 2014 - 11:51 PM, said:

Well I'm all ways for more performance, I'm not sure what kind of "jump in performance" I would get really. I'm using an old 460gtx on a ASUS labtop so yeeaaaaa, I'm not expecting miracles here. Otherwise I can play the game just fine really, only last eco gives me fps issues  sometimes.

Really_ My laptop's using a 560M and Wreckage gives me problems, but not Last Eco, really.
Yea really, my laptop is a miracle worker, it's played games that most people have problems with that have higher cards, then again I did remove alot of useless junk programs. :T I get fine fps on Wreckage, last eco is the only map that gives me issues. Thats why I try to avoid it if I can.

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#13 Infyrno

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Posted August 24 2014 - 12:43 AM

I use an amd graphics card and it seems to work fine, i bet an nvidia card of equal performance level would be better since hawken is based more heavily on nvidia's technology.  Though yes, i would like a 64 bit client because who doesn't love a little extra "oomph" :P

#14 Outsider1337

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Posted August 25 2014 - 03:16 PM

64 bit client would be nice, yea :D




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