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Spawning system needs some work


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#1 Thermite

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Posted November 14 2012 - 10:04 PM

This is my first impression of Hawken. I primarily focused on simple DM games during this beta.
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The maps are really nice but seem too small for some DM games. The primary issue is spawning. You could safely battle multiple enemies only to be finished off quickly by a freshly spawned player. Spawn camping wasn't too much of an issue but it was almost unavoidable to drop a turret outside some spawn area.

Spawning needs to be done differently. Maybe using some drop pods or random shielded garage bays that open up only if there are no enemies near. Other players made similar comments during the game after being killed by players that spawned on top of them.

The simplest solution is to make sure spawn mechanics choose locations that do not have players nearby. If this mechanism is already coded, the value may need to be increased for DM games.

Edited by Thermite, November 14 2012 - 10:46 PM.


#2 Ace4225

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Posted November 14 2012 - 11:02 PM

you bring up an interesting point, but I didn't have much issues with spawning. 49/50 times, I spawned clear of any enemies. There were a few people that had the idea to drop a turret wherever they spawned so the next guy that spawned there would have a turret in his face.. if that really becomes a problem, that could probably be avoided by implementing an initial cooldown for items before they become available.

I believe your "simplest solution" is already implemented.

The idea of spawning in garage bays reminds me of bad memories from MechAssault. MechAssault was one of my favorite games of all time, but Destruction (deathmatch) on Colliseum was terrible. Everyone spawned in a garage just outside the map and then walked through a door into the arena. People would get shot up by mechs waiting outside the garages that unintentionally ended up there because of spawning issues.

Even if the garages wait for enemies to move away, you could still be sniped, or people could leave turrets by the entrances.

I do like the idea of drop pods, though... or possible temporary spawn shielding (like in Unreal Tournament)

I think the devs' original method for combating bad spawning was the limited use of items; you don't get fresh items until you respawn. So when you do spawn, if you happen to be in a bite off the bat, you can avoid camping by using your items.

Edited by Ace4225, November 14 2012 - 11:08 PM.

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#3 -Tj-

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Posted November 15 2012 - 01:10 AM

During DM games I'd usually be spawned far away from where the action was, though occasionally I'd be dropped in near a battle in progress. I would guess it's because it was the place where the least action was taking place, and it usually only happened like this when there were a lot of players on the map.

There have been instances where a player would spawn in an area I just killed someone in, and on some occasions I'd end up fighting newly-spawned player after player (I think I racked up maybe 5 kills once in the same area, just because the players spawning in kept coming). Sometimes I'll just ignore the spawned player if they don't see me because I don't think it's cool when you spawn in and immediately get shot. But most times, if you've just finished a fight with someone else, you're still on radar and that new spawn will jump right on you anyway (in that case, it's on!! :D).

The one thing that bothered me was people placing turrets near a spawn point. I can't stand turrets so I try to destroy them in DM games whenever I see them, but a turret placed near a spawn point is just not cool. I'm not saying turrets should be removed (they're an awesome tactical item), but it's just really annoying. If an item cooldown is used, players who like to do this might just wait till the cooldown is over and do it anyway.

Perhaps another solution would be to have random spawns at the point on the map with the least activity and with the least number of opposing mechs within a line of sight. If this isn't possible, I kinda like the spawn shield idea. But I also think that a mech that spawns with a shield should not be able to fire. It could last just long enough to know someone's shooting at you and to get away, or to assess the situation and ready a counter attack.

#4 Urvanis

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Posted November 15 2012 - 01:55 AM

The poor spawn system is why I avoid full DM rooms, and Sahara.There are times where I'll kill someone and they will literally respawn right next to me. I once got a 15 kill spree within 3 minutes just chain fighting respawns before I could even leave the room I spawned in. I realize there can be bad spawns sometimes, but it is just way too often in this game for me to believe anything other than spawn points are nothing more than a dice roll.
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#5 Decoy101x

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Posted November 15 2012 - 03:50 AM

I've never had an issue with spawns at all so from my personal experience I'd have to disagree. However I'm sure that if it is a problem that there are ways to fix it. I agree with spawns with the least lof.
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#6 Entity

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Posted November 15 2012 - 09:45 AM

Yeah spawns are terrible in full games.

At some point someone started accusing me of camping, when I simply could not leave the area, because between fighting off 2-3 people and repairing my mech, either someone spawned there again or noticed me on the radar and decided to come take a look. More often than not this repeats ad nauseum.

#7 The_Silencer

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Posted November 15 2012 - 10:34 AM

View PostThermite, on November 14 2012 - 10:04 PM, said:

...
The simplest solution is to make sure spawn mechanics choose locations that do not have players nearby. If this mechanism is already coded, the value may need to be increased for DM games.

+1 (plus more spawn points if required as well)

I've not had issues with campers during the CB2. Just some few random spawns with opponents nearby. Although id the probability of that can be minimized somehow then the better, indeed.

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#8 Frenotx

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Posted November 15 2012 - 11:58 AM

View PostEntity, on November 15 2012 - 09:45 AM, said:

Yeah spawns are terrible in full games.

At some point someone started accusing me of camping, when I simply could not leave the area, because between fighting off 2-3 people and repairing my mech, either someone spawned there again or noticed me on the radar and decided to come take a look. More often than not this repeats ad nauseum.

I had a lot of issues with this, too. As a c-class, running away wasn't really an option. I'd just have to fight mech after mech until my large health pool finally got erroded away- rarely had time for a full repair when I got caught in those situations.
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#9 3Jane

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Posted November 15 2012 - 12:13 PM

Loads of times on Andromeda I kill someone and engage a second player.

2 seconds after the 2nd die guys I get shot in the back and killed before I can think about repairing by the first guy who respawns behind me
-_-

It could definately be better. Maybe some spawns that are sort of out of the way by making some areas that are blocked off at the sides  of the map available as spawns instead, turned into a little more of the map.

#10 KejiGoto

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Posted November 15 2012 - 12:17 PM

In Team Death Match and other team based modes I had zero issues with spawning. I'd spawn far enough away that it made it a con to dying but not far enough away that it felt like this huge trek back to the action. I never spawned with enemies on top of me or anything like that either.

Death Match is something different entirely and I didn't overly care for this mode during the Alphas or the Closed Betas. Spawn camping happens but my biggest complaint are turrets and those who abuse them. Far too often I'd spawn in and instantly come under attack from a turret leaving me to either sit there and destroy it while taking damage and thus starting my new life off having to heal or run for it and hope I don't spawn there again anytime soon.

Honestly I feel like this game works the best with team focused gameplay over everyone vs everyone. Those matches felt more like I was using cheap tactics, sticking to the outsides of combat to snake kills from other players and such. I much rather have matches where both sides are in all out war fighting over points on the map and other objectives.

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#11 Tezkat

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Posted November 15 2012 - 01:02 PM

Yeah, I've had a lof of DM games with enemies spawning right behind me. I don't know if adding safe spawning zones is the answer, though. I can't see many ways of implementing that that wouldn't be awkward additions to the map or end up with something just as campable.
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#12 Saer

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Posted November 15 2012 - 02:28 PM

Definitely agree, one too many times after having killed someone, literally 1 second later they spawn right behind me while I'm in repair mode and have their revenge.

#13 DarkPulse

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Posted November 15 2012 - 03:41 PM

I mostly avoid DM, but there's definitely that issue when DM is more full.

There's plenty of ideas, but here's another simple one: Just give a handful of seconds of spawn protection that also immediately cancels if the player fires a shot.
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#14 3Jane

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Posted November 16 2012 - 01:59 AM

I don't know that's kind of gross too. They just boost on to your face and wait until they can't miss (:

#15 Thermite

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Posted November 16 2012 - 10:31 AM

View PostSaer, on November 15 2012 - 02:28 PM, said:

Definitely agree, one too many times after having killed someone, literally 1 second later they spawn right behind me while I'm in repair mode and have their revenge.

That's a good point. In addition to no enemies, the spawn system needs to choose a location away from your 'last death' in order to prevent instant revenge kills..

Edited by Thermite, November 16 2012 - 01:14 PM.


#16 KejiGoto

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Posted November 16 2012 - 10:58 AM

I think one thing that might help out in Death Match would be having a respawn timer so players aren't dying and then getting tossed right back into the action. Die and wait five to ten seconds to respawn and then once you come back into the match you have a few moments where you can't take damage. However in order to keep players from abusing that temporary invincibility I'd say the moment they start charging their weapons the invincibility is removed and if they have something like the Grenade Launcher (or another weapon that doesn't need charging) the first hit does nothing. This way there is something of a penalty if you decide to be a jerk and go after someone who can't damage you but you can hit them at any moment.

Also I'd say make the invincibility count down timer appear next to the mech that way others know how long they have.

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