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How do you tell a "smurf"?

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#1
harmless_kittens

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The past few nights have been really hard on me.  It seems like in almost every "three star" match I get placed in, there is one player who is VASTLY more skilled than the rest of us.  Like scores of 500 with everyone else around 100, no deaths and 15+ kills.  So basically whoever is on that player's team is going to win.  In other words, they are a tier 1 player whom the matchmaker feels is on our skill level.

 

How can I tell if we are playing against one of these "smurfs" I've heard you guys talk about?  I notice that a lot of them are using Assaults.  Is this a required part of the "smurfing" process?  Also, how can I tell if they're not just a good player, but also a "bot"?

 

Frankly it is very discouraging.  I don't know why people would deliberately choose to beat up on the newer and weaker players, and risk them getting discouraged and quit (like I did last night) instead of playing against people of their own skill level.


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#2
Hyginos

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You can usually tell a smurf by low hours played but high KD and secondary weapon accuracy. Running meta setups like orblord, emp/orb, is also a sign sometimes. Underdog bonus will make it look like they are stomping harder than they actually are.

 

PublicMMR on an account with 15 hours played is a dead giveaway.

 

I would note that smurfing is not generally malicious. Many players have smurfs or alternate accounts solely for the novelty name, solely to play while inebriated/impaired, or just to play a mech that they can't play well at their current MMR bracket.


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#3
harmless_kittens

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You can usually tell a smurf by low hours played but high KD and secondary weapon accuracy. Running meta setups like orblord, emp/orb, is also a sign sometimes. Underdog bonus will make it look like they are stomping harder than they actually are.

 

PublicMMR on an account with 15 hours played is a dead giveaway.

 

I would note that smurfing is not generally malicious. Many players have smurfs or alternate accounts solely for the novelty name, solely to play while inebriated/impaired, or just to play a mech that they can't play well at their current MMR bracket.

Thanks.  How in the world do I know someones hours played, KD ratio, MMR, etc?  I don't see a way to determine this about another player in the game.  And thats a good point about the EMPs.  Those get thrown around a lot by the ones I have in mind.  Thanks again.



#4
Silverfire

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Thanks.  How in the world do I know someones hours played, KD ratio, MMR, etc?  I don't see a way to determine this about another player in the game.  And thats a good point about the EMPs.  Those get thrown around a lot by the ones I have in mind.  Thanks again.

 

you can check the player stats here: http://hawken.heroku...user/silverfire  except replace my username (silverfire) with the name of the player in question to check them out. You can click on the mechs individually to see the mech stats.


Edited by Silverfire, 17 March 2016 - 10:59 AM.

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#5
TheButtSatisfier

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PublicMMR on an account with 15 hours played is a dead giveaway.

 

@Harmless_kittens: I suspect you lack the context to know what Hyginos means here. To understand, check out the Hawken leaderboards. Notice how some of the ranks list the callsign name while others say "anonymous"? That's because one of the two steps required for your callsign to be publicly listed on the leaderboard is to go to your garage and name one of your mechs "PublicMMR". It's unlikely a new player would know how to make their callsign visible in that list.


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#6
crockrocket

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In addition to what others have said, with population the way it is some of these players probably aren't even smurfs. A lot of very good players get thrown into lower level lobbies because there isn't a large enough playerbase to form a higher skill lobby at all times.


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#7
SS396

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So basically whoever is on that player's team is going to win.


Lol, this guys been here for what 3 months and he's already figured out why the game is unfun.


In other words, they are a tier 1 player whom the matchmaker feels is on our skill level.


Not quite. They are a tier 1 player, yes, but the matchmaker ignores the fact that they are overqualified and just assigns them to the "best" (highest) lobby because there isn't a "better" lobby around. This was Joshs brilliant decision to combat the high tiers complaints about having no games to play. This was supposed to solve smurfing, and as anyone can observe it didn't do anything but make things 1000 times worse for 98% of the population. Now its common to see a lobby with over a 1000 MMR spread, where as before the matchmaker was more restricted and there were only spreads of 400-500 or so.
 

How can I tell if we are playing against one of these "smurfs" I've heard you guys talk about?


You can click on their name in the recently played with list and view their game profile, without having to tab out. Common themes are low time ingame, and high K/D ratio. Also lack of cosmetic items meaning no custom camos that cost actual money.

 

Frankly it is very discouraging.  I don't know why people would deliberately choose to beat up on the newer and weaker players, and risk them getting discouraged and quit (like I did last night) instead of playing against people of their own skill level.


There isn't anyone (or enough people) playing in their skill level, so who are they supposed to play against? This is the crux of the problem, Reloaded lowered the restrictions and now it lumps everyone into any valid game after 30 seconds instead of segregating the population like it was designed to do in the first place. You couple that issue with playing at times when the NA population is low like mornings or late at night and you have the perfect situation where the overqualified get lumped into a game with much weaker players. There are a few that purposely engage in this activity and its easily noticed after a few rounds of playing with or against them. Just write their callsigns down on a post it note and when you bump into them again leave the lobby.

It's unlikely a new player would know how to make their callsign visible in that list.


Or care to begin with.
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#8
harmless_kittens

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Regarding MMR, and looking at those links, I see that I was in a match just last night with at least one player whose MMR was a full 1000 higher than mine.  Yes, ONE THOUSAND :(

 

So you're right, its not a smurf thing so much as the "not enough comparable players" thing.  In my case, its probably that no else as LOW as me is playing, not so much that the better players need to drop down.



#9
DallasCreeper

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Edited by (TDM) DallasCreeper, 17 March 2016 - 01:06 PM.

 

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#10
TheButtSatisfier

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So you're right, its not a smurf thing so much as the "not enough comparable players" thing.  In my case, its probably that no else as LOW as me is playing, not so much that the better players need to drop down.

 

Yep. Sometimes it will be a high level player that got dropped in your match by letting matchmaker ("MM") place them in the most appropriate available game, and sometimes it will be a newly made smurf account piloted by an experienced player. The frequency that you play games with players like this will probably increase as your MMR does too.

 

It's understandable that you experience frustration when pitted against really good players. Everyone I know that plays Hawken went through the same thing. My former roommate, Kirkgonewild, and I used to marvel at how good certain players were compared to us. We'd point out their scores. We'd consider leaving when we recognized that they joined.

 

But soon, we started noticing things about those good players. Things we didn't notice about the players that were matched at our skill level. We saw that the good players we never caught alone. We saw that they didn't stay out in the open. That they chose specific mechs on particular maps. That they weren't actually any faster than us, but that they would time their dodges to when we were about to fire - thereby maximizing the usefulness of their dodges. I could go on.

 

Look. Playing against better players is shitty, but it's the way it is for now. Period. You and your son have shown tenacity in learning the ropes, and now you have enough skill to recognize how just how good some other players are. That's progress. Over time that recognition will be more granular. You'll subconsciously adapt their techniques to your own. It's cliche, but every time you face a good player it's an incredible learning experience if you take the time to slow down and watch. Every game against a +1000 MMR player is worth ten games against people your level in terms of learning potential.

 

Before you know it, other people will be making threads about people like you and your son who ruin the game for everyone else.


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#11
SS396

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Regarding MMR, and looking at those links, I see that I was in a match just last night with at least one player whose MMR was a full 1000 higher than mine.  Yes, ONE THOUSAND :(


Yeah, its unfun. Even someone 400 or so MMR above (or below you) is unfun to play against. I say below because lower players commonly just stand still while you shoot them, its really not any challenge.

Now, if that player that has the game experience to get 1000 MMR higher than you, goes and creates a brand new account with zero minutes of playtime and a MMR of 1250. That would be considered a smurf, because his actual game experience doesn't match the new account numbers. You'll get all kinds of excuses from "I'm protecting my mains MMR" to "I smurf because I don't want to have to tryhard and carry an entire team of noobs", to many others just read about it on the forums, its been posted hundreds of times.

If you know how to check your MMR by messaging scrimbot, type in SRD and it will show you the lobby MMR spread and average. When I enter a lobby thats the first thing I type, and if I see a situation where someone is way too overqualified, I'll go find another lobby.


In my case, its probably that no else as LOW as me is playing, not so much that the better players need to drop down.


Well I don't buy that at all and don't beat yourself up about it. Everyone starts out at 1250 (even a smurf that just created a new account), and around 1500 to 1800 is considered average. Once you start getting into the 2000's or so the number of players that have reached that achievement really starts to drop off. 2400+ is pretty much less than 1% of the total population.

Check out this graph, you'll see that you aren't as low as you think, I couldn't get the 365 days one to display though, shrug.
http://home.xshade.c...ent/7-days/mmr/

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#12
TheButtSatisfier

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If you know how to check your MMR by messaging scrimbot, type in SRD and it will show you the lobby MMR spread and average.

 

(@Kittens) You can also check out the server browser list here. Clicking on player callsigns will take you to their individual pages where available.


Edited by TheButtSatisfier, 18 March 2016 - 01:07 PM.

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#13
SS396

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You can also check out the server browser here. Clicking on player callsigns will take you to their individual pages where available.


The whole point of what I was explaining was to do everything INSIDE the game without having to tab out and bother opening web pages to get the same information.

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#14
Call_Me_Ishmael

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Appropos of nothing whatsoever, if I log in and play this morning (I only play mornings anymore, due to work), it'll be the first time in two weeks.

 

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#15
StubbornPuppet

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Kittens, you can also get a decent idea if a player is a smurf by looking right at their in-game information.  If they are below pilot level 30 (especially below pilot level 20) and seem to be owning the match... they're probably smurfing.

 

And, I do not yield to the excuses made to forgive smurfing.  So many people say, "They/I have to do it to find matches."... but they are contributing to the very problem them claim to be trying to escape.  For every high MMR player that smurfs, that's yet another player missing from the high-tier pool of players.  If NONE of them went a-smurfin', there would be plenty of players for them.  And the new matchmaking algorithm that ends up putting them in lower lobbies really solves the former complaint.

 

This in NOT to say that I think they are bad people or have ill intentions, just that they are failing to understand that they, and others like them, are the root of their own problem.  Low player population does feed into exacerbating the problem as well.


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#16
TheButtSatisfier

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The whole point of what I was explaining was to do everything INSIDE the game without having to tab out and bother opening web pages to get the same information.

 

I'm sure he appreciates it too. You reminded me about the server browser list so I decided to post it. I've found it useful to identify the person with the highest MMR in the server, and figured OP might like that also.

 

Is that alright with you?


Edited by TheButtSatisfier, 18 March 2016 - 01:07 PM.

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#17
Meraple

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If NONE of them went a-smurfin', there would be plenty of players for them.

Not the case in Europe - being generous, there's 9 semi-active semi-high to high-tier players over here.

 

Edit: I suppose you're talking about NA though.


Edited by (KDR) Meraple, 18 March 2016 - 06:50 AM.


#18
harmless_kittens

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OK, more questions about these lists you guys have provided.  1)  On the leaderboard, why are so many of them "Anonymous"?  2)  On the server board, when I click on a player in the server, most of their screens do not show an MMR at the top.  Why not?

 

Thanks again.



#19
TheButtSatisfier

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OK, more questions about these lists you guys have provided.  1)  On the leaderboard, why are so many of them "Anonymous"?  2)  On the server board, when I click on a player in the server, most of their screens do not show an MMR at the top.  Why not?

 

Thanks again.

 

 

Notice how some of the ranks list the callsign name while others say "anonymous"? That's because one of the two steps required for your callsign to be publicly listed on the leaderboard is to go to your garage and name one of your mechs "PublicMMR". It's unlikely a new player would know how to make their callsign visible in that list.

 

Some follow-up: if a player doesn't opt-in on the leaderboard (one of the two steps I've described in my quote), then by default that player will show up as "Anonymous". All the defined players you see on the leaderboard (1) went into their garage and named one of their mechs "PublicMMR", and (2) they entered their callsign into the form located here.

 

The server browser points to the same player profiles that the leaderboard does. If you are clicking on players where it doesn't show any information about them (like not showing their MMR), then that means they haven't opted-in.


Edited by TheButtSatisfier, 18 March 2016 - 07:14 AM.

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#20
harmless_kittens

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Thanks.  Not sure I like the "anonymous" default option then, but I guess some people value their privacy, or are easily embarrassed.



#21
TheButtSatisfier

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Thanks.  Not sure I like the "anonymous" default option then, but I guess some people value their privacy, or are easily embarrassed.

 

NP.

 

For some context, being able to retrieve someone else's MMR through the leaderboards or server list is a very recent thing. In the past it was much more difficult to identify someone's MMR; we didn't have a webpage where a bunch of people opted-in to show that kind of info. Pretty much nobody knew your MMR unless they found you in a server where you unquestionably had the highest MMR and they got a SRD report from Scrimbot (which would give the lower and upper MMR ranges, so you could assume that the upper range MMR value belonged to the dude who is comfortably at the top of the scoreboard). As a result, it was natural that those webpages were made with privacy as the default setting.


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#22
Ashfire908

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NP.

For some context, being able to retrieve someone else's MMR through the leaderboards or server list is a very recent thing. In the past it was much more difficult to identify someone's MMR; we didn't have a webpage where a bunch of people opted-in to show that kind of info. Pretty much nobody knew your MMR unless they found you in a server where you unquestionably had the highest MMR and they got a SRD report from Scrimbot (which would give the lower and upper MMR ranges, so you could assume that the upper range MMR value belonged to the dude who is comfortably at the top of the scoreboard). As a result, it was natural that those webpages were made with privacy as the default setting.


There's also the aspect that MMR was never intended to be exposed like it is now. There's no official way to get it.
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#23
Merl61

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There's also the aspect that MMR was never intended to be exposed like it is now. There's no official way to get it.

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#24
SS396

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I'm sure he appreciates it too. You reminded me about the server browser so I decided to post it. I've found it useful to identify the person with the highest MMR in the server, and figured OP might like that also.
 
Is that alright with you?


No, its not.  First when I think of the term "server browser" I don't conclude Shadeness' app. To me the server browser is in game where its the list of servers you can join manually.

And second, I read it as if you were telling ME how I could also use Shadeness' app, and not directing your comment towards the OP.

 

 

There's also the aspect that MMR was never intended to be exposed like it is now. There's no official way to get it.


Actually you can easily get anyones MMR from any account using the clients features. I do it all the time and have been for years.   :thumbsup:


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#25
TheButtSatisfier

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No, its not.  First when I think of the term "server browser" I don't conclude Shadeness' app. To me the server browser is in game where its the list of servers you can join manually.

 

And second, I read it as if you were telling ME how I could also use Shadeness' app, and not directing your comment towards the OP.

 

Cool, thanks for sharing.


Edited by TheButtSatisfier, 18 March 2016 - 11:54 AM.

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#26
Nept

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And there he goes off the deep end!


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#27
Onstrava

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The problem is how mmr is all together, if your a high level player and you do mid to low pack you drop like 20mmr points and sometimes even more. Then when you leave and try to que up, matchmaking puts you in a room with new players as opposed to looking at your overall stats in the past, move importantly, your accuracy. Unsurprisingly you stomp the new guys but instead of your mmr going back up to what it was, it only goes up by 1 point. <--- Fix this. If you get put into a room with low players and stomp them, give the player more mmr points rather than 1, that way the game will put you back into the high mmr bracket and let the new guys play against the new guys, while the other higher tier players play against higher tier.

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Unfortunately like many others out there I was put in lord knows how many low tier rooms and stomped them, knowing that I probably just made someone quit the game.


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#28
SS396

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And there he goes off the deep end!

 

And here you go again...  

 

GTFO


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#29
TheButtSatisfier

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And here you go again...  

 

GTFO

 

You are an endless well of reliable entertainment.


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#30
SS396

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You are an endless well of reliable entertainment.

 

Then the game is working as intended.

 

 

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#31
TheButtSatisfier

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P.s., I noticed you were lurking around in this thread for a few hours waiting for my response, I figured I'd wait until you gave up waiting.   :tongue:

 

You caught me. I definitely wasn't checking to see which of my posts received a like.


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#32
6ixxer

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Hawken should detect if an account logs in from an IP that is also used by other high MMR accounts.
Then it should enforce a custom blue/white painscheme on them...

Edit: If they have 2500MMR+ then they can be papa smurf scheme.

Edited by 6ixxer, 20 March 2016 - 10:34 PM.

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#33
CrimsonKaim

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Hawken just consists of loyal players at the moments and those who join and leave rapidly. 

 

Pardon. I meant to say colonel lv 30 sh*tbucket prestige players with 1000h+ playtime.

 

 

Noone defeats the sh*tbucket.


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#34
LarryLaffer

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Noone defeats the sh*tbucket.

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#35
ThirdEyE

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Actually you can easily get anyones MMR from any account using the clients features. I do it all the time and have been for years.   :thumbsup:

How can you do that?  I was under the impression they removed MMR visibility in the client, and currently don't know of any way to see it without the help of scrimbot or heroku.

 

I would really appreciate the help.  :thumbsup:


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#36
SS396

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How can you do that?  I was under the impression they removed MMR visibility in the client, and currently don't know of any way to see it without the help of scrimbot or heroku.

 

I would really appreciate the help.  :thumbsup:

 

Well, years ago while working on my Hawken remote MMR stat tracker application for Android and IOS devices, I stumbled onto it.  ADH may have removed the visibility of it but that does NOT mean it isn't included inside the games back and forth communications data.  You just have to snag it when it flys by.

 

Good to see ya ThirdEyE.


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#37
DemitronPrime

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Well, years ago while working on my Hawken remote MMR stat tracker application for Android and IOS devices, I stumbled onto it.  ADH may have removed the visibility of it but that does NOT mean it isn't included inside the games back and forth communications data.  You just have to snag it when it flys by.

 

Good to see ya ThirdEyE.

 

other than ADDING scrimbot as a friend and messaging him MMR ? i mean an ap that does that would be handy

 

you should make that app windows based... also posting it would be great...

 

I mean it would def help to be able to check a name and see just how quick their MMR has raised, this can be a tell tale of smurfing i guess.

 

+10 for putting the effort into that btw


Edited by DemitronPrime, 21 March 2016 - 05:00 PM.

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#38
SS396

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other than ADDING scrimbot as a friend and messaging him MMR ? 

 

Yes.  Along time ago Ashfire decided to limit the number of MMR checks a user could do per hour using scrimbot (because people were checking MMR after every round), I set about to find a way to get MMR without having to be forced to comply with his restrictions as I wanted to track exactly how much MMR was won or lost in real time.  His system also incorporates a significant delay that I was unhappy with, meaning that if you check the MMR with scrimbot right after the match ends, it doesn't return the correct updated result due to some sort of caching in the way his system works.  My system doesn't suffer from that delay issue, it shows whatever the current player stats are.

 

 

i mean an ap that does that would be handy

 

you should make that app windows based... also posting it would be great...

 

Well, I don't really know how handy it actually is, you can get the same info from various means, I just wanted to be able to get it more than the restrictive number of times when I played.  Just one of those things I wanted and I doubt many other people cared about.  Shrug.

 

Its already completed, working and has been for years.  I never even bother to use it anymore honestly.  Its just unsatisfactory watching your MMR climb by .1 after MVPing a match.  Just another one of my many programming projects that clutters up this HD.  

 

Its a 2 part system, a client/server and a remote display app.  At first it started out by being a tiny windoze application that sits alongside Hawken, running in the background, and displays whatever fields I wanted to see mostly current MMR, and the MMR delta over X amount of matches that its logged.  Just so I could monitor my own progress and watch it change after every round.  Later on I decided to use the base application to funnel the same info that was displayed to an old android phone I had laying around after I upgraded my phone contract, that way I no longer had to alt-tab out, due to not being able to use a 2nd or 3rd monitor.

 

I doubt I will make it available to anyone as really there is no purpose for it other than novelty.  It was mostly just an experiment and a programming project that kept my mind busy to see if I could actually do it.

 

 

 

I mean it would def help to be able to check a name and see just how quick their MMR has raised, this can be a tell tale of smurfing i guess.

 

+10 for putting the effort into that btw

 

Just a correction here so you know, its purpose is NOT to be able to look up and track other peoples MMR as I feel that is an invasion of privacy, it is designed to only display and track your own account that you are currently playing Hawken on.  The thing I stumbled onto while working on it was how to GET other peoples MMR, that part is NOT part of my application.  I can do it with a few changes to my original program, but I would never publish a program that could do it.  

 

Thats another reason why I feel it won't ever get released to the general public, because of the lack of respect returned by some of the fellow members of this forum.  I don't feel they would genuinely appreciate it, or the hours I wasted working on it.  If I were to ever release it, they'd have a nice little easter egg surprise, if you will, if they ever downloaded and opened up one of my apps.  lol.


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fuzzy bunny you CZeroFive 


#39
harmless_kittens

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Am I using "SRD", as you suggested, correctly with Scrimbot?  When I get into a match I type SRD to Scrimbot and he will tell me the MMR range of all players on the two teams, correct?

 

I've been doing it every match or so and its been very interesting.  First of all, I only click the TDM matches that are "3 stars" for me, or "2 stars" if 3 stars is not available.  In a "3 star" match, I get an MMR range of like 1300-1800.  I do "OK" in these matches, with my low MMR hovering around 1400.  But its interesting how when someone new joins the match and I run the MMR again.  If that range increases to, say, 2300 all of a sudden, does this mean the person who just joined has an MMR around 2300?  So far the matches do seem to reflect this.  In fact in one match I just flat out asked "Who's the one here with 2350 MMR?" (I of course had my suspicions when we're all at 100 or so points and he keeps getting over 500).  And he/she said that it was them.  But this person joined a low MMR game when there WERE high MMR matches going on (I know because I looked).  Another player with a high MMR kept thrashing us all last night before admitting "I shouldn't be here", and then finally left (thankfully).  Saturday a player with around 2500 MMR joined our low tier match, which I and others promptly left.  Also last night a "team" of super-skilled Scout pilots thought it would be fun to come down to our level and club some seals for a while.  Out of about 10 matches last night, I estimate that 3 of them were actually close.  When I asked a "smurf" whose score was consistently scoring 400 points or more above the rest of us how long he's been playing the game.  "Two days", he said, and I promptly left the forum.

 

I'm sorry, but I'm not buying the "no comparable matches thing" right now.  That may be true after about 2-3 am, but this weekend from 9pm EST to 2am EST there were MULTIPLE TDM matches taking place.  Players of this skill level are not just accidentally getting placed with us - they're deliberately doing so, and I'm getting closer and closer to not tolerating it anymore.  And this is after my son and I feeding about $50 of our own money into supporting the game.  I can confidently say that they will NEVER EVER get a very large player base unless they FIRST find a way to stop the Veterans from clubbing the weaker and newer players like myself.

 

I know, I know.  "Git gud", right?  Some of you have been telling me that for weeks now, and here I am still getting schooled by the Vets even WORSE than before.  I'm wondering how many of the Vets "got good" themselves when there were multiple servers with dozens of players, so they were able to learn the game years ago with other newbies.  Try instead to imagine a person who has never played a FPS shooter before trying to learn the dodge-fest that is Hawken today, and then imagine 2500 MMR players and the "Smurfs" coming in to show us how its done.  In this new player's humble opinion, the "learning curve" for this game is not a curve at all - we start at the bottom of a sheer cliff.



#40
crockrocket

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Even when there are multiple matches available, as you saw this weekend, it is rare that one of those will have an SRD over 2k. It really is a population issue. 


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