Balance For Pros? Balance For Newbies? Balance For Who?
#1
Posted 22 March 2015 - 06:36 PM
This has been a heated debate that has been popping up in various threads recently. Who do we cater the balance to? This question deserves to be discussed, as balance decisions influence how all of us play the game. This is my two cents.
For me, it is simple. Follow the model of games that are far more successful than Hawken, like Dota2. That game is balanced totally with the highest level of play in mind, and sees millions of users. Why is this so?
Balancing to the highest skill level forces people to improve to that level in order to be successful. If things that are "over powered" at a low level are nerfed, it gives no incentive to improve. If you are asking the devs to nerf things that are either balanced or under powered, you are basically giving up. You throw in the towel. "I'm not good enough to fight a rocketeer in my scout". Don't nerf a mech that is already borderline useless. Get better. The whole point of the game is that it is a competitive online shooter. You should always seek to improve. Games that encourage competition are more successful in the long run. It is human nature to compete. Let the game unleash it.
This is where I will get a ton of flak, and I get it. People have very strong opinions. This is mine. The main issue that I personally have with this philosophy is that it may drive away new players if they see certain things that they believe are op. This is where the community comes in. This is where we must teach new players correct information from the very beginning. The skill ceiling is high. We need to realize that there are people who believe they are dispensing good information, when they are really passing on their flaws. I'm not claiming to be perfect. I'm not claiming to know everything. I'm not saying that the opinions of less experienced players don't matter. What I am saying is that my experience and skill give me a different perspective. I have fought my way up the ladder. Looking back, I'm glad I didn't let anything stop me from improving. Not ping, not over powered mechs, and most certainly not refusal to get better. Looking forward, I still see things that I can improve on. Everyone doesn't need to be Dave, or even have ovrr 2000 MMR, but I implore you to realize that the people who are at the top have insight that they want to use to make the game better, not ruin it. We will debate. We will converse. We will do our best to help the game grow and prosper. We will not let people who have no idea what they are talking about ruin the game with their ineptitude. You may think that your concerns are valid. Maybe they are, maybe they aren't. Everyone has a different perspective. In my opinion, the players at the top of the ladder have a broader one when it comes to balance concerns, simply due to the fact that they must know what is good and what is not if they are to make it to that level. Again, that is not to say that players from all levels don't have valuable insight. I am simply stressing the importance of listening to the few who really know this game inside and out. I know it sounds elitist and douchy. Maybe it is. It's simply something that I want to get off my chest.
I want to make it very clear that I have an open mind when it comes to all issues. Someone may post something in the comments that will totally change my mind and make me realize that I am completely wrong. I am okay with that. I also want to clarify that I only want what I think is best for the game. My opinion is one of many. It is up to the developers to implement what they think will be best. I am simply here stating what I think will be best, and that is subject to change.
If you want help, or an explanation of why things are the way they are balance/meta wise, there are plenty of players that are more than willing to take the time to engage with you and help you improve. Come check out the community Teamspeak ts5.gameservers.com:9152 and git gud skrubs:) Thanks to all. Good luck out there pilots. I'll see you on the battlefield.
Merl
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#2
Posted 22 March 2015 - 06:58 PM
While I hate getting skunked by a superior player, I have to agree with the logic of "grind it out...you'll get better", because it has worked for me. I have had my lunch taken and eaten in more TDM matches than I care to remember....but it didn't come without several valuable lessons. Like not going solo, not camping out, not being constantly aware of the map choke points, etc. My only push back is this: fair play. I have learned more from the vets that doled out a painful whooping but took the time to instruct me on the 'why' I was getting a whooping. I can not, nor will I ever, agree to vets feeding their K/D ratios (egos) at the expense of discouraging fair play with the newbs. This coming from a so-so (competent) player.
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"The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting" - Sun Tzu
#3
Posted 22 March 2015 - 07:05 PM
I FIND THIS ELITIST AND DOUCHY, SIR.
Realistically, I agree on a gameplay level. I want to play a game that I can always improve at, that has a high skill ceiling, and that I can feel proud for being good at.
However, from a marketing perspective, the notion of "let the community show noobs the light" isn't a valid method of going about this. Most people, by a long shot, that I run into in game aren't on the forums; you know for a fact I'd like to change that, but the game has to have appeal right off the bat.
DotA 2 is successful for god knows what reason. Maybe it's because Valve created it. Maybe it's because.. I mean. Really, I have no idea why it is. It's practically impossible to break into without a friend's help, and doesn't have a campaign or anything.
This is one of the (many) problems that would be solved with a larger playerbase. Issues of balance are scarce when the teams are actually balanced.
I suppose my point is that it may pay to be cautious when it comes to pushing the game in the most hardcore direction as possible. I'd love to see it, but perhaps the best solution is wait for the playerbase to increase, through whatever possible means, and then split the game into casual and competitive game modes. Ranked and unranked, and have some particular differences between them based on the existing metas. The fact of the matter is, it's easy to find a "consensus" among existing players for the grind-it-out mentality, because we're here. We stuck around. However for every one of us, there are 10 potential players that left because they found the game too hard to break into.
Edited by ticklemyiguana, 22 March 2015 - 07:07 PM.
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#4
Posted 22 March 2015 - 07:07 PM
Yes. I agree 100%.I FIND THIS ELITIST AND DOUCHY, SIR.
Realistically, I agree on a gameplay level. I want to play a game that I can always improve at, that has a high skill ceiling, and that I can feel proud for being good at.
However, from a marketing perspective, the notion of "let the community show noobs the light" isn't a valid method of going about this. Most people, by a long shot, that I run into in game aren't on the forums; you know for a fact I'd like to change that, but the game has to have appeal right off the bat.
DotA 2 is successful for god knows what reason. Maybe it's because Valve created it. Maybe it's because.. I mean. Really, I have no idea why it is. It's practically impossible to break into without a friend's help, and doesn't have a campaign or anything.
This is one of the (many) problems that would be solved with a larger playerbase. Issues of balance are scarce when the teams are actually balanced.
I suppose my point is that it may pay to be cautious when it comes to pushing the game in the most hardcore direction as possible. I'd love to see it, but perhaps the best solution is wait for the playerbase to increase, through whatever possible means, and then split the game into casual and competitive game modes. Ranked and unranked, and have some particular differences between them based on the existing metas.

Thanks to Badtings for this awesome banner!
#5
Posted 22 March 2015 - 07:14 PM
Before this blows up, and it will, I want to make my position clear. Balance is a situation for the devs to deal with, and all we can offer is input. We are already aware that there are some huge obstacles regarding changing weapons on mechs and so forth, and I imagine other things will crop up as time goes on. Balancing for the ideal is all very well and good, but the ideal may not come to pass because of hard coding issues and it may not come to pass because of hard financial issues. This game needs to be more new-user friendly. if the devs decide that requires nerfs or making things easier to use, so be it. I would rather have a populated game than a balanced one.
It's not like we haven't built an entire ruleset around balancing issues in top-tier play before.
If balancing in favour of high-tier play does come about, I have this to say to new players. I have been where you are before. In many ways, I still am. As impossible as it may seem, you can reach these heights. Throw yourselves at that wall of skill and exult in every bloody nose you get bouncing off. I have raised an entire team on the principle that getting beaten by the best will make you better, and goddammit, we had fun along the way. If you need a hand learning, let me know.
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#6
Posted 23 March 2015 - 12:39 AM
I really like the idea to split balance somewhat between ranked and unranked, Maybe make some items exclusive to ranked as not to flabbergast new players (I'm looking at you AC). Scanner (post nerf) and scrambler may also be good candidates for this, so players can learn how to properly read the radar before it's filled with Fuzzy Bunny stuff.
I am not sure on the consensus in higher levels about the amount of healing in game, but slower repair time and less healing from orbs might be good thing to isolate for ranked play.
Another idea could be a form of drafting, where you get to pick your 3 mechs, to play as and swap between, in the lobby. Also maybe add as a server option to use TPGs standard for class and internal restrictions.
I am not entirely against the idea of higher TTK, ever so slightly, to the casual side.
The question of matchmaking and splitting the playerbase is a bit of a catch-22 and I have no idea how to get around the problems that comes with limiting the availability of matches for good players.
Edit: Ideas about mech rental systems have been thrown around as an alternative to the current rolling roster. Where you pay HC to play a fully decked mech for a period of time. This could work very well together with a Ranked/Unranked split. As ranked would require you to actually own the mechs you want to play. Also making universal xp tie into HC instead of MC would give some incentive to play a variety of mechs before purchase.
in case of the above I would also like internals to be universal so you could customise your rental mechs and get a feel for what works and what doesn't before committing to a mech purchase.
Edited by Crminimal, 23 March 2015 - 12:55 AM.
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#7
Posted 23 March 2015 - 02:28 AM
I can see there being a dumbed down playlist for players that are lower than say rank 15. They can always choose to pick the higher level one, but that option could be there to make new players feel more secure in the beginning. We need more players before this happens though.I really like the idea to split balance somewhat between ranked and unranked, Maybe make some items exclusive to ranked as not to flabbergast new players (I'm looking at you AC). Scanner (post nerf) and scrambler may also be good candidates for this, so players can learn how to properly read the radar before it's filled with Fuzzy Bunny stuff.
I am not sure on the consensus in higher levels about the amount of healing in game, but slower repair time and less healing from orbs might be good thing to isolate for ranked play.
Another idea could be a form of drafting, where you get to pick your 3 mechs, to play as and swap between, in the lobby. Also maybe add as a server option to use TPGs standard for class and internal restrictions.
I am not entirely against the idea of higher TTK, ever so slightly, to the casual side.
The question of matchmaking and splitting the playerbase is a bit of a catch-22 and I have no idea how to get around the problems that comes with limiting the availability of matches for good players.
Edit: Ideas about mech rental systems have been thrown around as an alternative to the current rolling roster. Where you pay HC to play a fully decked mech for a period of time. This could work very well together with a Ranked/Unranked split. As ranked would require you to actually own the mechs you want to play. Also making universal xp tie into HC instead of MC would give some incentive to play a variety of mechs before purchase.
in case of the above I would also like internals to be universal so you could customise your rental mechs and get a feel for what works and what doesn't before committing to a mech purchase.

Thanks to Badtings for this awesome banner!
#8
Posted 23 March 2015 - 02:30 AM
My point of view is that using correctly the player levels tied to the item restrictions, the match maker and special rules for competitive play you could keep in mind competitive balancing while avoiding noob-stomping.
I mostly play TDM, so the statement below only stands for TDM (MMR stands for whatever ranking system) :
- 3 types of servers :
"ranked League"
with item restrictions and limit access so that only parties with even number of player can connect, whenever a player leave the game is halted and if the team doesn't manage to replace the missing member within 1 minutes is a draw, a player leaving has some sort of loss (punitive enough to avoid rage quit but not too much so that I you have a connection loss or something like that you won't be punished too much, an example could be being inable to log a "ranked TPG" game for a certain amount of time). These servers should be "3 golden stars" and made for top players. MMR is modified when playing in these servers.
"ranked training"
same as above but without restriction to parties and quiting. Make 1 server for each MMR range (1500 : no stars, up to >2200 : 3 stars), limit acces to players that have MMR within range. MMR is modified when playing in these servers. These servers are locked if the game is balanced (for example : if kill difference is less than 5 after 5 minutes the game server is locked unless a player quit).
"pub wreckage"
No restriction (even a top player can join a ~1500 MMR game), server is always opened, no MMR change for playing, but appropriate team maker : for example a 2000MMR player in a 1500MMR pub stands for 2 players (taking 2 slots in a team), add bots if teams are unbalanced.
Make a real "queue/ticket service" so that you can queue for a "ranked training" while playing in a "pub wreckage" and make a "chat room" for players waiting for ranked training and ranked League.
#9
Posted 23 March 2015 - 02:36 AM
The pilot rank is a separate issue. it seems that a lot of players are disuaded from the game based on their assumption that higher ranked players have access to better items and weapons. And AC on 21 doesn't help.
I would rather have advanced internals and items restricted from the kiddie pool, not the skill level or rank.
Edited by Crminimal, 23 March 2015 - 02:37 AM.
#10
Posted 23 March 2015 - 03:01 AM
I will make a post eventually detailing my ideas for playlists. I agree with you to a certain extent.The pilot rank is a separate issue. it seems that a lot of players are disuaded from the game based on their assumption that higher ranked players have access to better items and weapons. And AC on 21 doesn't help.
I would rather have advanced internals and items restricted from the kiddie pool, not the skill level or rank.

Thanks to Badtings for this awesome banner!
#11
Posted 23 March 2015 - 03:10 AM
The pilot rank is a separate issue. it seems that a lot of players are disuaded from the game based on their assumption that higher ranked players have access to better items and weapons. And AC on 21 doesn't help.
I would rather have advanced internals and items restricted from the kiddie pool, not the skill level or rank.
I dunno if you were replying to my post, but when I talked about item restriction I meant it the other way : limit items to re-balance the game (only 1x healing orbs or stuff like that).
#12
Posted 23 March 2015 - 03:19 AM
Before this blows up, and it will, I want to make my position clear. Balance is a situation for the devs to deal with, and all we can offer is input. We are already aware that there are some huge obstacles regarding changing weapons on mechs and so forth, and I imagine other things will crop up as time goes on. Balancing for the ideal is all very well and good, but the ideal may not come to pass because of hard coding issues and it may not come to pass because of hard financial issues. This game needs to be more new-user friendly. if the devs decide that requires nerfs or making things easier to use, so be it. I would rather have a populated game than a balanced one.
It's not like we haven't built an entire ruleset around balancing issues in top-tier play before.
If balancing in favour of high-tier play does come about, I have this to say to new players. I have been where you are before. In many ways, I still am. As impossible as it may seem, you can reach these heights. Throw yourselves at that wall of skill and exult in every bloody nose you get bouncing off. I have raised an entire team on the principle that getting beaten by the best will make you better, and goddammit, we had fun along the way. If you need a hand learning, let me know.
100% accuracy right here ladies and gentlemen.
Edited by Z1Alpha, 23 March 2015 - 03:19 AM.

- How fine you look when dressed in rage. Your enemies are fortunate your
condition is not permanent. You're lucky, too. Mad eyes suit so few. -
#13
Posted 23 March 2015 - 04:21 AM
A lot of valid ideas that makes it really hard for me to show 'where I stand', which isn't really something I want to be saying. I mean, I wholeheartedly say that balancing shouldn't be done for the highest or lowest denominator... Each player is as important as another, and it's up to players, high skill level and low, to adapt to the game. The balance shouldn't be done in favor of competition for skilled players, or for ease of new players, it should be balanced as a game, as a whole. Unless everyone is flocking to one particular mech and loadout because it's "the best possible combination" and wins most of the time, then maybe nothing is overpowered, it's just that a lot of things available are underpowered in comparison. But that's the idea of a meta, of some matchups working bad against others, strengths and weaknesses. Unless there's a particular combination that has little to no weaknesses and cannot be trumped (Tech+incin? just pokin' fun, chill), then maybe things are balanced.
Okay, one ramble over. Butcher me for that if you want, just 2AM thoughts.
Look, one thing we all have in common is that we want the game to improve, but how it happens is going to be hard to iron out.
Another thing we all seem to agree on is that Hawken needs a larger playerbase before certain changes can even be considered. For a larger playerbase, we need Hawken to be more immediately accessible... which, I'm sorry, isn't something achievable through 'showing new players the way' or 'trying to be fair with them.' No matter how many of us vow to ease new players into the game, there will always be someone pubstomping, or a new player being put off too easily. That's NOT TO SAY that we shouldn't be nice with newccomers, I'm just saying it's not the solution to solve everything. Nothing turns off a new player faster than trash talk or negligence, but trying to tell them "it's okay, it's not OP, you'll get better soon" isn't a saving grace either. (I know, there are people who endure, practice, get better and more skilled. But not everyone is like that, we have to assume that most players coming to the game don't want to spend excessive time on something they're not enjoying).
Feel free to butcher me for that too,^ just rambling at this time of night.
So, we need a solution, something in the game, not just a mentality. Let's hopefully iron one out.
How can we 'balance' this game for newcomers (or rather make it more accessible) without:
A) Splitting the playerbase into ranked/casual or playlists (more viable once the playerbase expands)
B) Balancing at lower levels which disrupts the higher tier competitive scene
C) Giving newer or disadvantaged players live handicaps during matches
My two cents (or rather my amalgamation of shitty suggestions) would be to give players HC and/or XP boosts during their first 5 levels or something, or maybe drastically reduce the amount of XP needed to level the CTR (possibly even drastically reduce the HC cost of items and internals for just the CTR since they aren't universal across any new mechs they may get). This could give them a taste of what they 'could' be staying for. They'll get a rocket turret item, or a fuel converter internal, both easily and quickly... And when they get a new mech, maybe they'll have an idea of what they want or what to try next. I mean, they stayed this long, right? The solution may not lie in balancing the game for any particular party, but it's true that newcomers need to be eased in somehow... so the solution might not even lie in changes to 'gameplay', but rather outside of matches.
Although a possible change to gameplay (which unfortunately comes under C) Handicaps) could be deathstreaks of sorts. Clearly for only newcomers (let's just say rank 5 and below again for the hell of it, debatable) only, just to help them along. If they're doing well, then this won't affect them, it can't exactly be abused or used to their advantage if they're pitted against high level players, as it involves dying (even better if the deathstreak bonus, whatever it may be, is removed upon getting a kill or heavy assist (>50%)). Clearly it wouldn't fit the game beyond newcomers though, as it is essentially a pat on the back for the other team winning. So IF we look at gameplay solutions and not playlist solutions, the best thing to do would be to have them apply only below a certain threshold... And once they get high enough MMR or rank, then they've certainly stayed long enough to have the training wheels removed, right? They would have stayed long enough to hopefully be invested and interested in continuing to play (and hopefully enjoy) Hawken.
Yet again, butcher me, just rambling.
Edited by Zilph, 23 March 2015 - 04:52 AM.
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