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Has there EVER been a match where everyone stayed for the next one?

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#1
harmless_kittens

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OK, I took the advice of everyone here and stopped leaving matches very often.  (There are exceptions, but they are rare for me now.)

 

And WOW, I can't believe how many people leave a match at the end.  I don't know if its because you have to wait 2 minutes to get into the next match or not.  Do you know why so many people leave a match at the end?  Of a 12 person TDM, I've only seen 11 stay to the next match ONE time.  I've never see all 12 players stay for the next match.  Usually it's more like 6-8 who stay.  And its the losing team that almost always loses the most players.  WHY is this?  

 

Here's why it bothers me now (and you all have helped me to understand how Matchmaker works).  Say the next match screen only has 6 of the original 12 players still hanging around.  It seems that it takes longer to start the next match because not as many players are clicking "Ready".  Also, the next match is more likely to end up lopsided because MMR does not seem to be considered when new players are joining a match already in progress.  I've seen ourselves already losing (despite having one more mech), and then the other team gets another mech, and that extra mech is actually a stellar player.  It ends up a blowout.  (Sidenote, why do people say "good game" after a 14/40 match that was clearly NOT a good game?)

 

Anyway, as I learn more about why staying in a lobby is important, I'd like to encourage other players to do the same.  1) We can start the next match faster, and 2) It will likely be more balanced if we have more players at the start.


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#2
StubbornPuppet

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I've never been able to formulate a good reason myself.

 

If they stay, they are guaranteed a more balanced match.

If they stay,,they get to play a "full match" from the beginning.

If they stay, they don't have to dork around with finding a new match.

If they stay, they aren't contributing to the match balance problem.

 

What is the downside of staying again?

 

As for MMR being considered, "Yes" and "No".

MMR is considered for whether the player is suitable to be in a particular match, but not when figuring out which team to place them on.

 

The team balance thing may seem like an oversight, but I think it's working the best way it can:

When a player joins a match in progress, they are assigned to the team with the fewest players.  If teams are even, they are placed on the team which is technically losing.

 

That's the right way to do it.  If not, that means that a player who joins a match in progress would be forced to sit in limbo waiting for enough other players of similar skill to join the same match so the balancer could disperse them accordingly.  As Kitten pointed out, there's already enough 'waiting around' to play a match as it is... and people would leave.


Edited by StubbornPuppet, 24 March 2016 - 08:47 AM.

To be serious for a moment this is just a joke

 


#3
Shoutaxeror

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Yes


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#4
CraftyDus

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yes


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#5
-Tj-

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To answer the question in the title: yes, but it doesn't happen very often.

 

As to reasons people leave, they are many, including:

- No more time to play

- Bathroom break but don't want to keep the players in the next rotation waiting

- Angry girlfriend

- Dinner time

- Pet falcon is attacking your pet vole

- Want to buy a new mech

- Want to buy a new gun for a current mech

- Want to spend more time equipping a mech than the time between matches allows

- Don't like the server you're on

- Don't like the people you're playing with

- Like the people you're playing with, except maybe one arse who thinks it's fun to cheat

- Hate the next map

- Smoke break

- Coffee break

- Boss walked in

- Server level too low

- Server level too high

- Server level just right but you want to stomp

- Server level just right but you want to be stomped

- Emergency

- Too tired to keep playing

- Too angry to keep playing

- Just came for the daily win bonus, now it's time to move to the next game type

- Just came to test something out

 

(I could keep going lol)

 

On the point about the match starting faster if all players stay, this is not necessarily true. There's a certain percentage of players that have to click Ready before the MM shuffle begins, so you could still have a full server of 12 and still have to wait. You're right about players joining after the initial balance, but that goes back to having players wait a little bit before starting the match with less than 12 players. If everyone's willing to wait a little while to see if the server will fill to 12, you'll have that better match you want. It's really not that long before players inevitably join; sometimes it's even the players who just left.


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#6
Amidatelion

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no

 

 

To answer the question in the title: yes, but it doesn't happen very often.

 

As to reasons people leave, they are many, including:

- No more time to play

- Bathroom break but don't want to keep the players in the next rotation waiting

- Angry girlfriend

- Dinner time

- Pet falcon is attacking your pet vole

- Want to buy a new mech

- Want to buy a new gun for a current mech

- Want to spend more time equipping a mech than the time between matches allows

- Don't like the server you're on

- Don't like the people you're playing with

- Like the people you're playing with, except maybe one arse who thinks it's fun to cheat

- Hate the next map

- Smoke break

- Coffee break

- Boss walked in

- Server level too low

- Server level too high

- Server level just right but you want to stomp

- Server level just right but you want to be stomped

- Emergency

- Too tired to keep playing

- Too angry to keep playing

- Just came for the daily win bonus, now it's time to move to the next game type

- Just came to test something out

 

(I could keep going lol)

 

On the point about the match starting faster if all players stay, this is not necessarily true. There's a certain percentage of players that have to click Ready before the MM shuffle begins, so you could still have a full server of 12 and still have to wait. You're right about players joining after the initial balance, but that goes back to having players wait a little bit before starting the match with less than 12 players. If everyone's willing to wait a little while to see if the server will fill to 12, you'll have that better match you want. It's really not that long before players inevitably join; sometimes it's even the players who just left.

 god fuzzing dammit tj


Edited by Amidatelion, 24 March 2016 - 09:05 AM.

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#7
-Tj-

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Sorry, I broke teh chain. :P


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#8
Dedhed

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I dunno


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#9
TheButtSatisfier

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MMR is considered for whether the player is suitable to be in a particular match, but not when figuring out which team to place them on.

 

I'm nearly certain that MMR affects team assignments before a match. That's why young smurf accounts can mess up balance so much; MM sees their low MMR and places them on a team that it probably wouldn't if that player's true MMR was magically used instead.

 

For example, take a game that's about to begin and there's 11 players in the lobby. MM would be busy switching people around based on their MMR values. Since the teams don't have equal numbers of players, MM is going to put a few high-MMR players on the smaller 5-person team and will put a smaller amount of comparatively high-MMR players on the other team. However, since there's a smurf account in the mix, MM may put that smurf on the smaller team with more high-MMR players. Right then the match will probably be unbalanced. Give the match 2 minutes and wait for someone to join and be put on the 5-person team, and now it's even more unbalanced.


Edited by TheButtSatisfier, 24 March 2016 - 09:43 AM.

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#10
The_Silencer

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I like to stay

 

sometimes can't though


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#11
hellc9943

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No such match has ever happened and the people who tell they saw it are liars and deserve to be hanged.


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#12
DM30

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Have I seen it happen? Yes. Have I seen it recently? No. Not unless it was in an organized context.

A while back when there was a more active community of skilled veteran players (not huge, but certainly more than now), I would occasionally happen across a server with several known names here on the forums and in game, and those games would be fairly enjoyable and people would generally stick around in the lobby for a few matches in a row at least.

Nowadays, there are less active long-standing players who know each other, even fewer are online at the same time and those that are get scattered across different servers because none of them can manually join a game and so they're at the mercy of a system that tries its best with what it's given but can only do so much. What's left is a crowd of randoms who have no reason or motivation to stick around after a bad match and are too impatient to give the next one a chance.

So, yeah. Just the side effects of a less-than-ideal situation.

As for your question about people saying "GG", it's generally a sign of courtesy, like sports teams that will shake hands after a match. Less a literal statement on the game itself, more a gesture of respect to your fellow players.
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#13
eth0

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no

EVER?


Pubstomping is a whole different strategic discussion, however, and usually just becomes an exploration of the ethics of dumpstering randos.

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#14
DeeRax

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Never.


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#15
Amidatelion

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EVER?

never ever



#16
DeeRax

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Forever ever?
Forever ever?


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#17
StubbornPuppet

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I'm nearly certain that MMR affects team assignments before a match. That's why young smurf accounts can mess up balance so much; MM sees their low MMR and places them on a team that it probably wouldn't if that player's true MMR was magically used instead.

 

For example, take a game that's about to begin and there's 11 players in the lobby. MM would be busy switching people around based on their MMR values. Since the teams don't have equal numbers of players, MM is going to put a few high-MMR players on the smaller 5-person team and will put a smaller amount of comparatively high-MMR players on the other team. However, since there's a smurf account in the mix, MM may put that smurf on the smaller team with more high-MMR players. Right then the match will probably be unbalanced. Give the match 2 minutes and wait for someone to join and be put on the 5-person team, and now it's even more unbalanced.

 

You missed the important qualifier from Kittens original post that I was addressing. (and my bad for not quoting him directly to clarify)

 

 

Also, the next match is more likely to end up lopsided because MMR does not seem to be considered when new players are joining a match already in progress.  

 

So, "No", MMR is not considered when a person is joining a match already in progress.


To be serious for a moment this is just a joke

 


#18
TheButtSatisfier

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So, "No", MMR is not considered when a person is joining a match already in progress.

 

Are you sure? If there's a TDM with even team scores (let's say 15 v 15) and even amounts of players on both teams, you're saying that MM doesn't assign the incoming player based on MMR? I ask because think I've seen MM place players based on MMR in those conditions. I haven't run into it enough times to be sure though.


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#19
SS396

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And WOW, I can't believe how many people leave a match at the end.  I don't know if its because you have to wait 2 minutes to get into the next match or not.  Do you know why so many people leave a match at the end?  Of a 12 person TDM, I've only seen 11 stay to the next match ONE time.  I've never see all 12 players stay for the next match.  Usually it's more like 6-8 who stay.  And its the losing team that almost always loses the most players.  WHY is this?  

  
Part of it is having to wait so long between matches (years ago time between matches was much shorter), and part of it is that nobody enjoys losing.

 

There is this whole recurring pattern where players ragequit mid match if they are losing, or accept that loss and leave right after the match ends.   You'll also see people leave right at the start of a match if they've been placed against the best player in the lobby (say the player that just MVP'd the round) that just handed them their ass.  I feel some of those people stick around in hopes that they get paired up with the best player in the lobby so they can collect an easy win for their own stats, once they are forced to play against them, they just leave instead.

 

 

 

Also, the next match is more likely to end up lopsided because MMR does not seem to be considered when new players are joining a match already in progress.  I've seen ourselves already losing (despite having one more mech), and then the other team gets another mech, and that extra mech is actually a stellar player.  It ends up a blowout.  

 

 

Exactly, late joins ALWAYS throw off the balance that the ingame balancer had tried to accommodate for, and you are 100% correct, it doesn't look at MMR values to decide if a player is a fit for that team, it just dumps whoever joins next on a team that needs another player.  The overall system prioritizes filling the lobby over everything else.

 

 

 

Anyway, as I learn more about why staying in a lobby is important, I'd like to encourage other players to do the same.  1) We can start the next match faster, and 2) It will likely be more balanced if we have more players at the start.

 

Sorry but the people who need to know stuff like this, don't visit the forums, you are just preaching to the choir.  Also there are some players that don't want balanced matches at all, they are perfectly happy pubstomping and watching their K/D stats grow.  Shrug.


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#20
harmless_kittens

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On a related note, I also saw a player last night on our team leave a match that we were losing badly, and later rejoin the match and get placed on the other (winning) side.  I didn't think this was possible?  If it is it seems like a definite flaw in the system.  



#21
Amidatelion

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On a related note, I also saw a player last night on our team leave a match that we were losing badly, and later rejoin the match and get placed on the other (winning) side.  I didn't think this was possible?  If it is it seems like a definite flaw in the system.  

 

It's absolutely possible. Mid-match, matchmaker places you on the team with the least amount of people, followed by the side that hasn't had a new player join most recently.



#22
SS396

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On a related note, I also saw a player last night on our team leave a match that we were losing badly, and later rejoin the match and get placed on the other (winning) side.  I didn't think this was possible?  If it is it seems like a definite flaw in the system.  

 

Well, its possible it was just good timing, but odds are most likely it was specific communications, either by VOIP, or private messages with someone inside that lobby and it was done on purpose.

 

Happens all the time.


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#23
TheButtSatisfier

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Well, its possible it was just good timing, but odds are most likely it was specific communications, either by VOIP, or private messages with someone inside that lobby and it was done on purpose.

 

Happens all the time.

 

"I only have anecdotal evidence to support either theory, but since one theory includes a coordinated effort between multiple parties, then that's the most likely one. And it happens all the time."

 

Anecdotally, what I see most often is someone leaving a match for whatever reason and then they get dropped back in by matchmaker. Then they say, "Well, I guess I'm playing this game" in chat, and they stay for another round or so.


Edited by TheButtSatisfier, 24 March 2016 - 02:11 PM.

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#24
SS396

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"I only have anecdotal evidence to support either theory, but since one theory includes a coordinated effort between multiple parties, then that's the most likely one. And it happens all the time."

 

Anecdotally, what I see most often is someone leaving a match for whatever reason and then they get dropped back in by matchmaker. Then they say, "Well, I guess I'm playing this game" in chat, and they stay for another round or so.

 

:rolleyes:

 

Yeah fuzzy bunnyng right, this isn't about just leaving and rejoining a room, this is about leaving a room when the team you are on is losing and reentering and magically being on the team thats ahead.

 

I guess you've never seen anyone on the losing team, immediately teamswitch to the winning team when someone on the winning team disconnects instead of riding the match out either.  In the old days when you could use the teamswitch button at any time during the match when the teams were uneven it was highly abused specifically for this purpose.  

 

All it takes is watching this sort of thing happen BY THE SAME PLAYERS MULTIPLE TIMES to realize its more than just a fuzzy bunnyng coincidence like what you would like to believe.  And FYI those players that do this REPEATEDLY, never say "Well, I guess I'm playing this game" in chat.

 

Nice try.


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#25
talon70

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It happens but Its unrealistic to expect all 12 people to stay and having maybe 8 pilots staying is the most you should expect in public servers. The private server community has never really devolved. I expected 3 or 4 private servers to be active 24/7 and where the good fightin would be and pilots wopuld wait to get in. That never really happened I think due to population being so low. 



#26
Lioot

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You should come to Australian servers, with usually 10 people in one server out of the five, no one leaves


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#27
Merl61

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Forever ever?
Forever ever?

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#28
TheButtSatisfier

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I guess you've never seen blah blah blah

 

I'm smart enough to know that seeing something a handful of times doesn't mean that I have a representative sample. I provided my thoughts by prefacing that it was anecdotal for that very reason. I've seen both things happen, and so when I see someone leave and come back I think to myself, "Huh. Wonder why that happened. Oh well, I lack the evidence to really know why, and I'm not going to waste my time or energy by assuming things, so - oh hey there's something to shoot at" and I promptly forget about it.

 

Pull up your big boy underoos and stop looking for boogeymen. It will feel like a great weight being lifted from your shoulders, I promise.


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#29
SS396

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I'm not smart enough to know blah blah blah

 

I'm NOT fuzzy bunnyng talking about seeing someone a fuzzy bunnyng handful of times you moron, I'm talking about seeing the same usernames MULTIPLE TIMES a night for YEARS pulling the same shitty schemes.  I've witnessed it.  I guess you are quick to forget how much some of us have actually played this game and how many observations we conduct with the other 11 players each round.  So yeah, observations conducted over years of playing this game nightly, does NOT equal a handful of times that you are trying to assume as the basis for your argument.

 

Next. 


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#30
crockrocket

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I'm talking about seeing the same usernames MULTIPLE TIMES a night for YEARS


That would require you to play the game though
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#31
SS396

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That would require you to play the game though

 

HAH HAH.

 

I thought you would of learned that you can't automatically assume that I DO NOT play the game anymore.  Perhaps you, Buttsatisfier or anyone else would like to make another wager on the last time I played Hawken.  Same wager conditions as before.

 

This game is over 3 years old now.  Just because I do not play much anymore since Reloaded made things worse for the general public with the 1000 MMR spread lobbies, does not mean that I didn't put enough hours into the game to be able to make such simple observations.  Those players that I used to play with and against nightly, many of them still play, some don't but that doesn't make every one of their patterns any less obvious or irrelevant.


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#32
crockrocket

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HAH HAH.

I thought you would of learned that you can't automatically assume that I DO NOT play the game anymore. Perhaps you, Buttsatisfier or anyone else would like to make another wager on the last time I played Hawken. Same wager conditions as before.

This game is over 3 years old now. Just because I do not play much anymore since Reloaded made things worse for the general public with the 1000 MMR spread lobbies, does not mean that I didn't put enough hours into the game to be able to make such simple observations. Those players that I used to play with and against nightly, many of them still play, some don't but that doesn't make every one of their patterns any less obvious or irrelevant.


I'm just saying we're talking about current phenomena here. At least that was the impression I got, given that OP has only been around a couple months and all.
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#33
SS396

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I'm just saying we're talking about current phenomena here. At least that was the impression I got, given that OP has only been around a couple months and all.

 

No, this isn't exclusively about recent events, and trying to say that is just another excuse.  Sorry, but there was life before harmless_kittens graced us with their presence, and there will be life after they decide this game isn't for them and their family, should they come to that conclusion.


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#34
Massive_Assailant_Stingray

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 because you have to wait 2 minutes to get into the next match

 

Jiminy Christmas, Hawken post match is the dumbest thing ever. Give me the ability to run around and shoot during prematch, and cut post match down to 30 seconds or less. There's no real reason to sit idle for that long during a post match. Why? Community building? So we can make friends and giggle over our favorite match moments? Nah, it ain't like that, internet is not that mature, and it's boring anyways. Anything other than actually playing the game results in the game being played less, so maybe that's why nobody plays it.

 

And that's not really a joke either, I really mean that. Stream line this experience, get me playing faster, and keep me playing for longer. Anything inbetween is usually some kind of a circle jerk or troll, and it's all pointless. Besides, real community building happens inside the game, and naturally extends outside of it. You make connections with these people by playing with them often, and after that you have friends lists, forums, and chat programs.

 

https://community.pl...-a-bone-please/

 

And then you have posts like this. Don't let people just sit there and brood over this junk post match. They think it's important, but it's not, it's just there while you have nothing else to do for an obscene amount of time. Just get people playing the game, not arbitrarily quantifying it.


Edited by Massive_Assailant_Stingray, 24 March 2016 - 11:32 PM.


#35
Guns_N_Rozer

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yesh



#36
harmless_kittens

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I agree that it takes WAY too long to start another match.  I don't really understand why we need 1 full minute before the next location is displayed.

 

Here's what I "recorded" from last night, playing 10 TDM games for about 2 hours straight and never leaving the server.  All of these were matches that at the end of the match had 12 players.  This is how many of those 12 players stuck around for the next match:  9, 8, 8, 7, 5, 5, 7, 6, 8, 7.  Again, ALL of these matches eventually had 12 players in them, but I don't think ANY of them started with 12.  As a result of this and other factors, MAYBE 3 of these 10 matches were actually close.

 

So yeah, 7 or 8 hanging around (65% or less) is about the best we can expect right now.  And yet there's all these people looking to join matches?  That's just plain weird.  

 

Stick around people!  And DEVs, PLEASE cut down the amount of time between matches.  


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#37
StubbornPuppet

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So, "No", MMR is not considered when a person is joining a match already in progress.

 

 

Are you sure? If there's a TDM with even team scores (let's say 15 v 15) and even amounts of players on both teams, you're saying that MM doesn't assign the incoming player based on MMR? I ask because think I've seen MM place players based on MMR in those conditions. I haven't run into it enough times to be sure though.

 

I'm sure.  If the teams and scores are even, then it places the incoming player on the opposite of the team who last had a player join.


  • TheButtSatisfier likes this

To be serious for a moment this is just a joke

 


#38
Amidatelion

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I agree that it takes WAY too long to start another match.  I don't really understand why we need 1 full minute before the next location is displayed.

 

Here's what I "recorded" from last night, playing 10 TDM games for about 2 hours straight and never leaving the server.  All of these were matches that at the end of the match had 12 players.  This is how many of those 12 players stuck around for the next match:  9, 8, 8, 7, 5, 5, 7, 6, 8, 7.  Again, ALL of these matches eventually had 12 players in them, but I don't think ANY of them started with 12.  As a result of this and other factors, MAYBE 3 of these 10 matches were actually close.

 

So yeah, 7 or 8 hanging around (65% or less) is about the best we can expect right now.  And yet there's all these people looking to join matches?  That's just plain weird.  

 

Stick around people!  And DEVs, PLEASE cut down the amount of time between matches.  

 

This, basically. The wait time was increased because people, particularly noobs, didn't have enough time to check all the stuff they wanted to. But the old devs overshot and a minute is about thirty seconds too long for this crap.



#39
CraftyDus

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 you moron.....you are quick to forget..... you are trying to assume..

 

Next. 

 

You're gonna end up being penned in The ButtSatisfier's next erotic short story at this rate.

Try to imagine that people like you.

Try to imagine that they are not trying to get into hostile confrontations where you always lose.

Instead of bending the spoon try to imagine the truth.

There is no spoon.


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#40
TheButtSatisfier

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I'm NOT fuzzy bunnyng talking about seeing someone a fuzzy bunnyng handful of times you moron, I'm talking about seeing the same usernames MULTIPLE TIMES a night for YEARS pulling the same shitty schemes.  I've witnessed it.  I guess you are quick to forget how much some of us have actually played this game and how many observations we conduct with the other 11 players each round.  So yeah, observations conducted over years of playing this game nightly, does NOT equal a handful of times that you are trying to assume as the basis for your argument.

 

There there, take a breath. I know what you meant, and my response remains the same: you lack a representative sample size.

 

For example, let's say you saw the same group of players hacking over and over, but you didn't see enough players to compose a representative sample. It means you've just identified a number repeat offenders - you haven't made enough observations to say how likely it is that another random player from the population will turn out to be hacker. If you found enough repeat offenders (or random people hacking) to make a representative sample of the active population then that's different. But your description of how many unique people you've seen who rejoin to benefit in some way is anecdotal , and telling someone that you have sufficient evidence to say that it's (1) more likely than another potential explanation or (2) that it happens all the time is misleading.

 

If you start seeing enough people doing it to have a representative sample of the population then be sure to let us know.

 

This, basically. The wait time was increased because people, particularly noobs, didn't have enough time to check all the stuff they wanted to. But the old devs overshot and a minute is about thirty seconds too long for this crap.

 

Agreed, and let me skip the carousel roll. I don't want to wait 15 seconds to get to the garage or whatever it is I want to do.


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