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What ruins a team in team based games

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#1
CrimsonKaim

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Wheather it is Battlefield, Elite: Dangerous, Hawken, League of Legends, World of Tanks/Warships/Planes etc.

 

I have increasingly spotted a certain playstyle of a group of players which I call "passive playstyle" and IMO this is very harmful to a team.

 

But to understand how and why it is harmful I'd like to shortly explain the difference between the two meanings of "Team" or "Teamwork".

 

First you have a team, you are thrown into a party of random or selected players which each their individual playstyle for example tank, front liner, assassin, support or whatnot. 

Depending on the game, a playstyle may or may not determine the efficiency of a team (for example 5 supports may win against a mixed team or not depending on the game). 

IMO a good game does not punish any given playstyle so an arbitrary troll team of 5 supports should well have a chance against a mixed team. 

However, durign a match I started to see a difference in a player's behavior. Some like to play in a team and some may not. This is no news but I want to focus on the ones who actually DO like to play in a team (not the one like me for example hehe).

 

There are two kinds of teamplayers: The active and the passive teamplayer. You can basically devide these up in two mindsets.

The active teampalyer sees the oppotunities and power in being and working as a team. He/She knows very well that a group of allies comes with great benefits and only minor disadvantages for example increased firepower, defnesive capabilities but at a cost of more visibility and less mobility. 

The active teamplayer tries to actively use these advantages and to counter the disadvantages by adapting to the situation. If the team gets flanked, the active teamplayer takes the initiative and goes for a counter flank while the rest of the team holds the front line. Or if a teammate is currently flanking, the active teamplayer goes in for an aggressive manouver as they are currently attacking from two sides.

 

This kind of teamplayer usually leads a team to success and is (if everything goes well) considered at the end of the game as the carry. Not only does he usually score the most kills and stuff but most importantly knows when to do certain things like flanking, pushing, etc.

 

 

Now the passive teamplayer is the one who does not acts by its own. Usually adapting to the team's manouvers and actions and just following the group without really thinking about what is happening now.

This kind of player lieks to be in a team but rarely works as a team. He/She is repsonsible for the weakness and disadvantages as this kind of player usually won't even recorgnize when or when not the right moment comes to push or to hold the front line. He/She is strongly reliant on teammates protecting and supporting him/her while not supporting or protecting other teammates him-/herself.

This results in safe play where it is not needed or aggressive play where it is fatal, effectively wasting the resources and potential of the whole idea of teamwork. 

Claiming "I like to play in a team." would be a wrong formulation as "I like to BE in a team." is way more accurate. 

 

The minor but critical difference here is that being in a team and working as a team is the main decisive factor of winning or losing a match for a team as a whole. 

 

 

So this is something that I have spotted on some team based games and as soon as I spot such a passive player I do my very best to seperate this kind of player form the team as (as mentioned before) they do harm the team IMO. I have seen lots of good players getting thrown in with a team full of passive players all following wrong player but in the nature of games the skill gap is most likely not the main decisive factor (unfortunately). 

 

 

Do you have spotted this or a similiar playstyle in other games too? Do you think passive playing is harmful? Leave your thoughts below. :)


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#2
coldform

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TEAMWORK


What team do you play for?
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I like going against the best of any game I play. Helps you in the long run n motivates u to do more. Always room for improvement not failure

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czerofive-Today at 2:22 AM > got banned from playing lazertag - I used a knife to conserve ammo

FIRST OFF WHAT THE FUZZ IS A "SHILL"


#3
Brother3J

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I have noticed this in just about all online games. Seems to me people have this perception their individual stats mean more then winning.  I don't care how many times I die in a video game, the only time your kill death ratio matters is in real life.  (here is hoping most of you are 0/0/0)    I don't think there is a way to change this behavior.  Just part of the dynamics of online games.  

 

The thing about passive players is they are missing out on thrill of teamwork.  It is really a great feeling when you get a team that plays the objectives and watches out for teammates.  

 

Cheers!



#4
coldform

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Maybe pubbers just wanna shoot teh mechs.
And that's fine. Maybe they want a group of friendlies to reduce the number of enemies the have to face. That's fine, too. Maybe they wanna play a mode were you can score some points in other ways besides shooting teh mechs. Again, good stuff. You cannot take pubs too seriously.

Like the forums...

If you want teamwork, seek out an actual team, and don't rely on randos from across the interest to be good teammates.

Edited by (TDM)coldform, 24 May 2016 - 08:17 AM.

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I like going against the best of any game I play. Helps you in the long run n motivates u to do more. Always room for improvement not failure

z6aJAX7.png?1

 

czerofive-Today at 2:22 AM > got banned from playing lazertag - I used a knife to conserve ammo

FIRST OFF WHAT THE FUZZ IS A "SHILL"


#5
CrimsonKaim

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What team do you play for?

 

None, I am a solo player and will probably always be one as I don't like to adapt to rules and morals I don't stand for. For example I am so not a carebear. For what I am hated by some here I am loved by others in Elite for example. Simply said: I do what I want.

 

 

I have noticed this in just about all online games. Seems to me people have this perception their individual stats mean more then winning.  I don't care how many times I die in a video game, the only time your kill death ratio matters is in real life.  (here is hoping most of you are 0/0/0)    I don't think there is a way to change this behavior.  Just part of the dynamics of online games.  

 

The thing about passive players is they are missing out on thrill of teamwork.  It is really a great feeling when you get a team that plays the objectives and watches out for teammates.  

 

Cheers!

 

 

Well in TDM your KDR matter as it directly influences the outcome. :P

 

But in other modes this is somewhat true. While a kill/death doesn't really contributes to the claiming of an objective or the push of an assault it does help it somehow. I mean a 10v9 is easier than a 10v10 isn't it? :D


Edited by Crimson Kaim, 24 May 2016 - 08:15 AM.

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#6
coldform

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None, I am a solo player and will probably always be one as I don't like to adapt to rules and morals I don't stand for. For example I am so not a carebear. For what I am hated by some here I am loved by others in Elite for example. Simply said: I do what I want.


You're contradicting yourself. You say there should be more teamwork, but state you're a lone wolf.

Tell me if I'm reading this wrong: you want a team to help you, but you think lone wolf in it helps a team?
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I like going against the best of any game I play. Helps you in the long run n motivates u to do more. Always room for improvement not failure

z6aJAX7.png?1

 

czerofive-Today at 2:22 AM > got banned from playing lazertag - I used a knife to conserve ammo

FIRST OFF WHAT THE FUZZ IS A "SHILL"


#7
CrimsonKaim

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You're contradicting yourself. You say there should be more teamwork, but state you're a lone wolf.

Tell me if I'm reading this wrong: you want a team to help you, but you think lone wolf in it helps a team?

 

 

I have talked about two different kinds of teamplayers (The active and the passive ones) that doesn't mean that there are other players in team based games as well for example the solo player. There are some more types of players but this depends on the game itself. Some games simply make it impossible for certain playstyles to exist but teamplay and solo play will most likely always be available in team based games.

 

But back on track: I do not say I like a team for myself or a team that helps me. In Hawken I do my job as the backstabber. Take out important targets like the tech or just go in 5v1, alpha someone and run away after that. Commonly with enough distance to my team so they draw the attention to them and not to me as backstabbing works bad (or not at all) when you are spotted. Additionally I have made bad expereinces over and over again also with passive players. 

 

What I do expect from a team is that they know how to get along with themselves. How to not get stomped in a 3v3, realizing when a good oppotunity for an attack is and generally working together and not mindlessy following someone who looks good like a dog mindlessy follows a piece of bacon. 

Simply said: I expect my team to be competent enough to survive on their own without me, the solo player who does its job and contributes to the team score.

 

My critique goes to the ones who are not able to do that, who only want "to shoot mechs" and fail hard as I am so sorry and not the one supporting their playstyle. If they can not afford their own playstyle they simply should not play their playstyle. If one needs another one to have fun, well, good luck but without me. 

 

I have my fun on my own and if I want to I can play in a team and contribute to the teamfights as an active teamplayer but I can also contribute my own part as an active soloplayer.

 

 

 

TL;DR: I do not want a team that supports me, I want a team that doesn't self-destruct when I am not present.


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#8
harmless_kittens

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Meh.  As a generally poor player myself (sub 1600 MMR), I don't know how to feel about this.  For example, I main Predator in always cloaked "Vulture" mode, if I'm doing it correctly.  My goal is to pick off those stragglers that retreat to repair, and also to take out back line snipers if possible.  As a result, I am usually far away from my team, but if I'm doing it right I AM helping my team by finishing off their kills.  (If I don't do this then that enemy mech you got down to 10% goes back and heals up back to full.  What was the point?)  But if I DON'T kill my target, or they have friends nearby (stupid spawn-ins!), then I am likely dead as I have no team-mates nearby to help.  It's a risky playstyle, but it suits my tastes and often helps the team.  Yeah, I've also done the whole Incinerator/G2 Assault guns-a-blazing thing, and I can get maybe 10 kills that way, but then also die 10 or more times.  Somehow I don't feel like I'm helping in that scenario as much as 5 kills 0 deaths with Pred (unless our team was already out to a huge lead).

 

So in other words, there ARE scenarios I can think of where a player may want to stay away from their team.  Also, I feel that new players do much better starting off cautiously and actively working at NOT DYING instead of charging in with a K/D ratio of roughly 1/5.  But this is just theory-crafting, and I may be totally wrong.  But all the air dodges and orb-lording makes me suspect that DEFENSE, knowing how to stay alive, when to retreat, etc,  is vital to this type of game.  And hoping that new or casual players will somehow know when to make these amazing "counter-offensives" and other fancy terms you throw out there, or even come to this forum and read this, seems unlikely also.


Edited by harmless_kittens, 24 May 2016 - 08:41 AM.

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#9
harmless_kittens

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"My critique goes to the ones who are not able to do that, who only want "to shoot mechs" and fail hard as I am so sorry and not the one supporting their playstyle. If they can not afford their own playstyle they simply should not play their playstyle. If one needs another one to have fun, well, good luck but without me." 

 

Do you even remember the Tutorial?  It is a totally solo experience about "shooting mechs".  Why would you "expect" a player who goes through that terrible tutorial to meet these expectations?


Edited by harmless_kittens, 24 May 2016 - 08:40 AM.

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#10
coldform

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Hmm. Assassination is a good strategy, but only works if you have an organized, communicative team.

Posting a guide for team based play on the forums and expecting that randos across the Web to adhere to it borders on egotism.

It would be different if you actually communicated 1 on 1 with people to see if they would like to do this, and then once you have those people in a position that all of you can communicate to each other as a whole, and developed an overarching strategy to support everyone's playstyles...

Maybe worked with each other to adapt and overcome any lack of ability and skill that you and them have...

Edited by (TDM)coldform, 24 May 2016 - 08:47 AM.

I like going against the best of any game I play. Helps you in the long run n motivates u to do more. Always room for improvement not failure

z6aJAX7.png?1

 

czerofive-Today at 2:22 AM > got banned from playing lazertag - I used a knife to conserve ammo

FIRST OFF WHAT THE FUZZ IS A "SHILL"


#11
harmless_kittens

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As a counter-argument, let me share my current "expectations of my teammates" in a TDM match.

 

I expect that they will mess up the MM by "readying up" before all players have joined.  I expect that there will be ZERO communication or coordinated effort between team-mates whatsoever.  I expect that if I try to help them, like with a Tech, they will still play stupidly (just like I usually do).  I expect my team-mates to start bailing out and leaving a losing match before it is over, making the problem worse.  I expect there to be a "smurf" on my team approximately 1 in 5 matches.  I expect a "cheater" on my team about 1 in 10 matches.  I expect to have team-mates who are very good, and learning.  I expect to have players who just started and get killed a lot, OR who stand back and watch so that they don't get killed.  I expect my team-mates to not know much at all about Items and Internals, to never dodge, and to think that "turret-mode" is totally awesome.  I expect my 5 team-mates to find some way to run in SIX different directions at the same time.  And I expect my team to lose (very likely because I am on it).

 

Now, having said all that.  IF (and this is a big if) I can truly go into a match with all the above as my only expectations of my team-mates, I'll usually be pleasantly surprised, and I can have a good time.  It's when I don't have these expectations that I get frustrated with my team-mates, and the game is no longer fun.  In other words, for me at least, it IS a GAME about "shooting mechs", and that's it, and it is supposed to be fun.  And if someone can't have fun unless their team is meeting their unrealistic expectations - that's what "Deathmatch" is for.  In the end, all you can control is yourself.

 

That is all.


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#12
Aregon

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Keep playing deathmatch Fake, there`s a reason why TDM got an extra T and DM got none.

 

Most people will prolly play the game casually because they will probably use it to let off some steam, or to do something they enjoy. For many, going complete hardcore with the plan to widen the anus of every opponent isn`t exactly a top priority, and unless you are in an actual tournament this is what you should expect to counter in every pub. 


Edited by Aregon, 24 May 2016 - 10:17 AM.

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#13
ATX22

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Until voice chat works in Hawken again, I wouldn't expect nor put alot of effort into getting random pub gamers to coordinate super effectively. Especially newer players.
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#14
StubbornPuppet

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Until voice chat works in Hawken again, I wouldn't expect nor put alot of effort into getting random pub gamers to coordinate super effectively. Especially newer players.

 

And then, once it's fixed, I wouldn't expect to be able to hear much of anything useful over all the people screaming insults at one another. :D


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To be serious for a moment this is just a joke

 


#15
ATX22

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And then, once it's fixed, I wouldn't expect to be able to hear much of anything useful over all the people screaming insults at one another. :D


There's that too, but I'm not going to stop and type "enemy mech sneaking around your 6" and get obliterated mid sentence.

Can't say I miss all the high pitched keyboard commandos barking out orders and insults... but, that's what mute/ignore buttons are for. Especially when they do so in various languages I never cared to really learn.

#16
Flifang

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If you think I'm playing passively, it's either because I see something you don't, or I'm guarding for flankers.

Or I realize I have a really bad habit of running into a bad situation and not being able to escape in time, adding kindling to the possible inferno that is a complete team wipe. I have really bad game play habits at times and I've been trying really really hard to get rid of them :/



#17
CrimsonKaim

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-snip-

 

 

And this is a good strategy. In the end you are the one securing the kills and therefore adding points to your team's score. I usually do that in my infiltrator but not focusing repairing mechs but go nuts and alpha A-classes or mid-health mechs. As long as the KDR stays above 1.0 this is totally fine in TDM as it is literally only about KDR.

 

 

"My critique goes to the ones who are not able to do that, who only want "to shoot mechs" and fail hard as I am so sorry and not the one supporting their playstyle. If they can not afford their own playstyle they simply should not play their playstyle. If one needs another one to have fun, well, good luck but without me." 

 

Do you even remember the Tutorial?  It is a totally solo experience about "shooting mechs".  Why would you "expect" a player who goes through that terrible tutorial to meet these expectations?

 

 

Why do you play the tutorial? I never paly the tutorial, I press buttons until it works. :D


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#18
Shade__

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Until voice chat works in Hawken again, I wouldn't expect nor put alot of effort into getting random pub gamers to coordinate super effectively. Especially newer players.

 

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Note: im sorry


Edited by Shade__, 24 May 2016 - 11:53 AM.

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#19
ATX22

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Note: im sorry


My phone's autocorrect is not happy with you. :p

Edited by ATX22, 24 May 2016 - 12:20 PM.


#20
lo_spaghetto

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Baaasically, winners win and noobs lose?

 

Noobs have less experience

 

therefore less awareness of wth is happening around them,

 

and even if they were aware, they would not know how to act on the information.

 

Sometimes you can't win. Sometimes you can only limit your losses.


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#21
TheButtSatisfier

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TL;DR: I do not want a team that supports me, I want a team that doesn't self-destruct when I am not present.

 

A team is more likely to self-destruct if at least one of their teammates is not present, period. It takes a respectable amount of map awareness, experience, and coordination from all allied players to negate that effect.


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#22
HOHOHOSANTA

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There's only one answer to this whole thread. Yolo wins games.
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#23
TurquoiseTortoise

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How to be good at Hawken TDM

 

help requested? ignore that

enemy sighted? who cares

you know what just mute the game so you can focus on winning.

is your teammate fighting an enemy? wait until the enemy has low armor before shooting to get the kill or see who dies first.

did your teammate die? go in for the kill, the enemy should be weakened by now.

use rocketeer or bruiser on open maps.

use predator on maps with lots of hallways.

always flank, even if your teammate is fighting an enemy in front of you,

its a good strategy to take a lap at least once around the whole map before battle.

technician has highest dps in game and best mobility, use it to fight heavy class mechs head-on.

always hover in the air, its harder for enemies to shoot you when you're flying.

always sidedash after you shoot a secondary weapon. always.

always taunt after you kill someone with your missiles. missiles have low damage and need good aim to use, so killing

someone with missiles takes great skill. you earned it.

did someone die from your predator mines? taunt them.

if you use a heavy mech always stay behind a teammate.

never look at your radar, its only a distraction that will get you killed.

with only 1 minute left in a match, now would be a good time to work together with your team.

also if your team is a couple points behind, dont forget to hide. that way the other team cant get more points.


Edited by TurquoiseTortoise, 24 May 2016 - 03:18 PM.

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#24
ATX22

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Maybe if Hawken had bigger teams and larger maps to accommodate, a single gamer wouldn't have such a huge impact, good or bad, on the entire team?

That, or I'd like to see self healing or unlimited lives go.. one or the other (I'd leave TDM and DM as-is).



#25
HOHOHOSANTA

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It's dead as is

#26
thedark20

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Expecting teamwork in a pub is like expecting Merl to stop complaining about scanners


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#27
Pelanthoris

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At times one hears a guide state that in tdm, if your kdr is over 1, you are helping your team. Imho this isn't strictly true. As an example consider, say a veteran inf player (wink, wink) and a noob brawler in the same team. If the inf uses the feeding brawler as a bait over and over again, resulting in lot's of deaths for the brawler and some kills for the inf, the inf isn't really helping the team. Even if his kdr was 25.

This actually seems to happen a lot in the pubs, some people are able to maintain a very high kdr by backstabbing enemies who have already made 1-3 kills. In these cases the team often loses, but the backstabber is the mvp, resulting in "bad team, i did great"-attitude.

This of course relates to problems with the matchmaker being unable to resolve playstyles. If in a noob pub one team has two mediocore (active) teamplayers and the other one good backstabber, this becomes inevitable.

Just my dime on the matter.


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#28
MechFighter5e3bf9

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Edited by Bastardo, 26 May 2016 - 02:10 AM.

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#29
StubbornPuppet

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The Battle-Turkey is REAL!


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To be serious for a moment this is just a joke

 


#30
angryhampster

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when 2 skilled pilots are on one side, and there's only  1 skilled pilot on the other.



#31
DemitronPrime

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people the cant admit they arnt the best so they cheat to win or smurf to pretend they are


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#32
Shade__

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people the cant admit they arnt the best so they cheat to win or smurf to pretend they are

i know i'm garbage and full accept it, But i strive to get better.


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#33
DallasCreeper

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people the cant admit they arnt the best so they  smurf to pretend they are

I think Xacius has a couple smurfs. 


 

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#34
TheButtSatisfier

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people the cant admit they arnt the best so they cheat to win or smurf to pretend they are

 

I think Xacius has a couple smurfs. 

 

Everyone in the top 20 has (or is) a smurf / alt.

 

Demitron, get in here this instant and revise your statement.


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#35
Hyginos

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I think Xacius has a couple smurfs. 

 

 

Everyone in the top 20 has (or is) a smurf / alt.

 

Xacius, much like everyone else at the top of the board, can't admit he's not the best. 

 

Ultimately none of them will ever be as good as ArRmOrEd_KlOwN.


  • coldform and TheButtSatisfier like this

MFW Howken

 

My post count is neat.





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