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What advantage could Scanners have, instead of seeing walking players through walls?

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#41
TheButtSatisfier

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Stubbornpuppet is just being a sarcastic fuzzy bunny. We've just had a few threads get out of hand recently and end up locked.

 

By "get out of hand" you mean "addressed the palpable sexual tension between pilots"


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8) Tech in the streets, Brawler in the sheets (8


#42
hestoned

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i liked the idea someone had where instead of constant sight it updates positions every 4-5 secs or so like submarine radar



#43
PoopSlinger

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Maybe like a single instant wave that emanates from the dropped scanner and as the wave enlarges it shows things like the pred wall-hack, but only for a single player and only one pulse.


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Come on Crafty, you have been officially called out on your lies. Your online reputation is at stake here, this is just like an old school street race running for pink slips. Its run what you brung and hope its enough. Put up or shut the fuzzy bunny up.


#44
Hyginos

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Maybe like a single instant wave that emanates from the dropped scanner and as the wave enlarges it shows things like the pred wall-hack, but only for a single player and only one pulse.

 

The important thing about this is that it can be done without a client patch. We've already seen that the range and duration can be adjusted.

 

I approve this suggestion.


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#45
GreyFa1con

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Maybe like a single instant wave that emanates from the dropped scanner and as the wave enlarges it shows things like the pred wall-hack, but only for a single player and only one pulse.


Sounds like a great idea.

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#46
6ixxer

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Be real guys it needs more than one pulse.

Like 3 pulses a 3 sec intervals MINIMUM. Average 4 sec ttl you get 2 pulses. Longer skirmishes you get 3 and beyond that, everyone has moved on.
Saying pulse once, you may as well be saying 'remove from game' cos it'd be no better, seriously.

I personally think it should be until it gets destroyed, as you use them not so much mid fight, but to make sure you aren't being flanked.
I also think they should appear on radar when you walk close to it (2-3 of mech widths). Alerts you when someone is putting them in geometry (not that I do that O_o *cough* )

#dontkillscanners

Cheers,
6ixxer
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#47
PoopSlinger

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Be real guys it needs more than one pulse.

Like 3 pulses a 3 sec intervals MINIMUM. Average 4 sec ttl you get 2 pulses. Longer skirmishes you get 3 and bey

Cheers,
6ixxer


I mean like one pulse for one player that gives a full predator wall-hack with like a 2 second linger as the images of your opponents fade away. It would still come in clutch as fuzzy bunny and be used by almost everyone(who suck and are jerks) yet still be less op than giving an entire team super permanent radar.

khn3gAi.jpg?1CitkI9t.jpgGkp2fB7.jpg

Come on Crafty, you have been officially called out on your lies. Your online reputation is at stake here, this is just like an old school street race running for pink slips. Its run what you brung and hope its enough. Put up or shut the fuzzy bunny up.


#48
WmMoneyFrmMissouri

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Radar that pulses every 5 seconds could work.

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#49
6ixxer

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No to giving non-preds that kind of vision. Just No.

 

A lot changes in 3 sec, I think too much in 5. Again, on the borderline of not being worth it.

 

I don't see why people are going for full nerf rather than stepping it down. While we're at it, lets remove Techs; no point balancing those either....

 

Going from constant to even 2-3 sec pulses is a huge step. Pulsing at 3sec to me is getting underpowered. If it were me, i'd start at 2 and if still a problem then stretch it to 3 and 4sec with a week or so in between to reflect.

 

If people hate scanners then make a 3-4 slot anti-scanner internal. Give private servers optional* ability for scanners to insta-destruct when placed.


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#50
WmMoneyFrmMissouri

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I think if you believe 5 seconds puts it about not worth it we might be in a zone where a majority will be happy. I initially thought 3 seconds too but felt that might not be dark long enough to surprise anybody that's using it. 5 seconds could lead to feign tactics ect where you think the bulk is coming one way only to get flanked but 5 other mechs the other mid pulse. Just an idea. I definitely don't think getting rid of scanner all together is the answer either.
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#51
GreyFa1con

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Actually I'm gonna say 3 seconds of Predator vision would probably be simpler to code than a pulse.

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#52
CraftyDus

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Scanner is for players with zero gamesense.
Best scanner, no scanner.

At a certain level, once proficiency is attained, all shooters are about outwitting and out juking opponents.

Crutches like the scanner are only necessary if one is incapable or unwilling to learn how to play well.

Nothing shouts the message to others in game that a player has accepted that they are unable to play well, as clearly or as loudly as having a scanner in their load out.
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#53
BIsmuthZornisse

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Wouldn't drastically shortening the scanner's duration make the item not overpowered?

 

Scanner is for players with zero gamesense.
Best scanner, no scanner.

At a certain level, once proficiency is attained, all shooters are about outwitting and out juking opponents.

Crutches like the scanner are only necessary if one is incapable or unwilling to learn how to play well.

Nothing shouts the message to others in game that a player has accepted that they are unable to play well, as clearly or as loudly as having a scanner in their load out.

Define gamesense.

Also, how is your message true outside of (non-team) death match?

 

EDIT: Note to self: proofread before posting.


Edited by BismutZornisse, 19 November 2015 - 03:37 AM.

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#54
CraftyDus

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The ability to predict behaviors and intercept them is gamesense.
Nothing broadcasts that you have abandoned hope of learning to play well by naturally anticipating opponents, quite like adding a scanner. This is the truth in all hawken gamemodes.

If you are using a scanner, no decent player will respect your abilities.
This is Hawken.
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#55
spr1nterJam

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up

do not forget also
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#56
WmMoneyFrmMissouri

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Crafty, while I agree with the scanner being a crutch after getting to a certain level of game awareness I also believe it's an important learning tool for anyone starting out. When the competitive players don't like something, that tells me there might be some use for that something. The truth is the scanner prevents pub stomping sometimes and negates some of the effectiveness of the TPG level player in these rooms. It also gives a newer player tossed into these rooms at least a sliver of a chance to help. Not too bad an outcome when you look at it this way IMO.
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#57
DM30

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Crafty, while I agree with the scanner being a crutch after getting to a certain level of game awareness I also believe it's an important learning tool for anyone starting out. When the competitive players don't like something, that tells me there might be some use for that something. The truth is the scanner prevents pub stomping sometimes and negates some of the effectiveness of the TPG level player in these rooms. It also gives a newer player tossed into these rooms at least a sliver of a chance to help. Not too bad an outcome when you look at it this way IMO.


And in a high-level room, it makes pushing nearly impossible on some maps and frustrating on all others, and reduces the game to a boring corner-poking stalemate. Boost for new players or not, in the end it's bad for the game.

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#58
n3onfx

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It completely shuts down the role of several mechs that rely on flanking, denies the abilities of 2 of them (pred and infil) and puts the team that doesn't have one at a massive disadvantage until they destroy that scanner.

 

#ScannerIsCancer


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#59
WmMoneyFrmMissouri

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Which is why I'm open to it being changed in some form but not eliminated from the game.

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#60
GreyFa1con

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Scanner is for players with zero gamesense.
Best scanner, no scanner.

At a certain level, once proficiency is attained, all shooters are about outwitting and out juking opponents.

Crutches like the scanner are only necessary if one is incapable or unwilling to learn how to play well.

Nothing shouts the message to others in game that a player has accepted that they are unable to play well, as clearly or as loudly as having a scanner in their load out.

I like where you're going with this.

What. If.

We keep scanner. Exactly as it is.

In fact, what if we give an extra scanner to every player below a certain mmr, regardless of loadout, assigned to the 4 key.

And then make it so high mmr only see line-of-sight and boost/shoot info from scanners.

Which would give newbies in mixed mmr matches a solid advantage against more experienced players.

So essentially, make it "Hawken training wheels".


_

Edited by GreyFa1con, 19 November 2015 - 09:22 AM.

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#61
BIsmuthZornisse

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Nothing broadcasts that you have abandoned hope of learning to play well by naturally anticipating opponents, quite like adding a scanner. This is the truth in all hawken gamemodes.

Actually, that's a complete falsehood because the scanner doesn't let you read your enemy's mind, so you still have to do anticipation work.

 

 
If you are using a scanner, no decent player will respect your abilities.

Nevermind the fact that that's a blatant "no true scotsman" fallacy, how is not being "respected" by complete strangers on the internet, for using something that is in the game, supposed to be an issue for me or any other player?

 

This is Hawken.

You sure this isn't Bugs Bunny's Birthday Blowout?

 

Not liking the scanner is not a good reason to 5hit up a thread about how to fix it.

 

Also, this is probably me being overly pedantic, but doesn't "crutch" imply in this case that the scanner stops being useful at a certain point, which is clearly not the case, as explained by ticklemyiguana DM30 above, hence the ban at tournament plays?

 

---

 

I actually wouldnt mind having it detect enemies in a sweeping cone, as opposed to the static cylinder.

Is it, programming-wise, feasible to, instead of penetrating walls, have the "cone" bounce off them? It might need increased range without "wallhack", though.

Also, how about when a scrambler's effect radius intersects with the scanner's, the scanner's area shows false positives? Kind of extending the scrambler's range in a direction. This is probable more useful for nonsweeping detection, i suppose.

Also notifying a player that it has been detected by the scanner is fine, too. The game already does it for the hellfire launcher, so why not.


Edited by BismutZornisse, 19 November 2015 - 09:39 AM.

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#62
Sylhiri

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Which would give newbies in mixed mmr matches a solid advantage against more experienced players.

So essentially, make it "Hawken training wheels".

 

They already tried something like this with special new player internals. If I recall correctly they were removed.



#63
PoopSlinger

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Crafty's post sucks

I think what Crafty is trying to say is that scanners are dumb and people who use scanners are at a minimum crappy players and at worst a bunch of terrible people.


Edited by PoopSlinger, 19 November 2015 - 10:47 AM.

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Come on Crafty, you have been officially called out on your lies. Your online reputation is at stake here, this is just like an old school street race running for pink slips. Its run what you brung and hope its enough. Put up or shut the fuzzy bunny up.


#64
Epsilon_Knight

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Buff scanner to also double the radar range of all friendly mechs within its radius.

 

Then enable team attack on the player who dropped it and flag them with enemy colors on their team's HUDs.

 

Fair is fair, and all squares are rectangles.



#65
GreyFa1con

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Another mixup that would work.

Keep it as is, but only benefits to the person who deployed it, and destructs after # seconds.

Would still be lame, but it wouldn't be a menace.

TRIBES: Developed a server mod with 40 servers, 20 clans, and competitive league play.

PLANETSIDE: Got about 30 suggested changes implemented, and 40,000 game downloads via a 1Mb mini-installer I developed.

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#66
Epsilon_Knight

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Another mixup that would work.

Keep it as is, but only benefits to the person who deployed it, and destructs after # seconds.

Would still be lame, but it wouldn't be a menace.

 

Would still be a menage menace to DM.  That goes for my terrible idea as well.  

 

Truthfully, even time limited, it cripples mind games, tactical retreat, sneak attacks, and corner play for its duration.  It needs to be reworked.



#67
Call_Me_Ishmael

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Actually, that's a complete falsehood because the scanner doesn't let you read your enemy's mind, so you still have to do anticipation work.

 

Nevermind the fact that that's a blatant "no true scotsman" fallacy, how is not being "respected" by complete strangers on the internet, for using something that is in the game, supposed to be an issue for me or any other player?

 

You sure this isn't Bugs Bunny's Birthday Blowout?

 

Not liking the scanner is not a good reason to 5hit up a thread about how to fix it.

 

Also, this is probably me being overly pedantic, but doesn't "crutch" imply in this case that the scanner stops being useful at a certain point, which is clearly not the case, as explained by ticklemyiguana DM30 above, hence the ban at tournament plays?

 

---

 

 

First, I feel similarly to Crafty, the scanner is OP and should be removed.  If it's not removed, it needs a helluva change/nerf.

 

It's a crutch because you come to rely on it, and not progress past it's use.  Much like, oh, a crutch.

 

Third, Crafty has a little to say about how tournament play happens.  You could say he's entitled to speak about tournament play.  Lecturing him with what goes on in tournament play is a little like lecturing a Supreme Court Jurist about the law.  That didn't stop our resident Jackass-in-Chief though.

 

I agree with him:  a player carrying a scanner is advertising his failures or newness.  I'd rather people learned the game without it. 

 

I feel similarly with regard to air compressor.  I don't think the answer is 'make it ubiquitous'.  I mean, what if we removed the scanner and built it's function into every mech's radar, active all the time?

 

In the game of scissors, paper, rocketlauncher, scanner does not have any counter.  I do not consider the argument 'but, Scrambler', as the scrambler is an easily solved puzzle for me and many others who have learned how.

 

Remove scanner is the best fix.


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#68
nepacaka

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what if scanner can scan nearbly enemy mech, and show to You info about his internals, items, and how much second cooldawn his ability is (or if it ready to use now), how much overheat and hp he have. instead x-ray walking mechs.

 

also, delete this info showing when you die. i.e. you can't see enemy build without scanner.

just a random idea :P


Edited by nepacaka, 19 November 2015 - 03:55 PM.

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#69
Hecatoncheires

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How about if it were like a sonar and it scanned in revolutions, only revealing what it passes by. There's also the possibility of the scanner neutralizing mechs on the radar. Like every mech would appear within a certain radius but you wouldn't be able to tell the difference between friend and foe unless you see them directly.


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What the Heca-


#70
BIsmuthZornisse

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Reply to Ishmael in spoilers so my reply to hecatoncheires doesnt get lost.

Spoiler

 

---

 

@hecatoncheires

i am completely fine with this idea. Should the detection pass through walls, too (so not just line of sight)? If not, then it might need more health to survive being placed in the open for a few seconds.


Edited by BismutZornisse, 20 November 2015 - 01:02 AM.

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#71
CraftyDus

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Well, you did learn what gamesense means.
And how the majority of Hawken players regard a game breaking item.
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#72
Call_Me_Ishmael

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The scanner IS banned for being overpowered, right? Not because some people have petty vendetta against, as shown by the repeated, unfunny 5hitposts in this thread,right?

Am i a "jerkass-in-chief" for hurting (what i assume to be) a resident of the elite ivory tower's feelings. I'm flattered, no sarcasm. I could actually already tell just by CraftyDus' signature that someone would try to defend that user's honor by personal attacks.

 

 

Commander-In-Chief is the President of these United States.  Jackass-In-Chief is what he is affectionately called when he lectures the Supreme Court on Constitutional Law during his second Inauguration.

 

You missed the reference.  I wasn't explicitly calling YOU a jackass. 

 

I still think the item is broken, and the best solution to the broken item is remove it, not write a bunch of tortured-concept code and have to tweak it a lot.  This is presupposing the code will be tortured in proportion to the concept. 


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You should call me Luna.


#73
Nept

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Nevermind the fact that that's a blatant "no true scotsman" fallacy

 

Actually, it's not a blatant No true Scotsman fallacy. An NTS fallacy requires a response which narrows the definition of an already-refuted generalization.  If, after Crafty's initial claim, you had named a decent player who respects your scanner-laden abilities, and had Crafty then replied that "No truly decent player would respect your scanner-laden abilities," then you'd be looking at a potential NTS fallacy.  Of course, not even that scenario necessarily entails an NTS.  For instance, he might simply disagree with your assessment of "decent".

 

If I were construing Crafty's statement as an informal fallacy, I would point toward poisoning the well.  This particular fallacy doesn't depend upon redefinition (as does the NTS fallacy); instead, it preemptively denigrates.  Note that Crafty's statement, "If you are using a scanner, no decent player will respect your abilities," excludes from consideration any "decent" players who consider the scanner's use legitimate.  Therefore, anyone who believes as much is automatically labelled "non-decent". 

 

Of course, the statement constitutes an informal fallacy only insofar as it's erroneous reasoning.  Although it's probably fallacious (depending on your definition of "decent") to claim that no decent players would respect someone who regularly uses the scanner, it's not much of a stretch to claim that the scanner is disliked by the vast majority of the veteran community.

 

*Edit* We have some data on that last claim of mine which, although not necessarily representative of the veteran community, is fairly representative of those vets on the forums. (Scroll down about halfway for the scanner data)


Edited by Nept: Ultra Lord of the God-Kings, 20 November 2015 - 05:38 AM.

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#74
spinningchurro

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Sonar function that shows a split-second blip indicating an enemy's position,  so you're forced to predict their movement instead of being able to outright track them effortlessly.  It scans in a clockwise motion and blips show up once per rotation (the rotation speed of the radar is not quick, either).  The scanner item lasts 30 seconds maximum after it is deployed, and it does not reveal Predator or Infiltrator cloaking.

 

 

Alternatively, get rid of it.  Its only "honorable" use is in Siege by people who have a gameplan/coordinated team.



#75
PoopSlinger

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Sonar function that shows a split-second blip indicating an enemy's position,  so you're forced to predict their movement instead of being able to outright track them effortlessly.  It scans in a clockwise motion and blips show up once per rotation (the rotation speed of the radar is not quick, either).  The scanner item lasts 30 seconds maximum after it is deployed, and it does not reveal Predator or Infiltrator cloaking.

 

 

Alternatively, get rid of it.  Its only "honorable" use is in Siege by people who have a gameplan/coordinated team.

Honestly playing on Eth0's pizza server with no radar at all is the best siege.  When teams are even and both filled with good players its too difficult to take the AA once the other team controls it.  To launch a successful attack against a full health and entrenched group on the AA you need have at least one flanker and you may have to do it multiple times (if the first time doesn't work).  Flanking without using boost begins to put you outside the timeframe of destroying a 3rd or 4th ship in this post-steam siege.

 

With no radar, it opens a lot of possibilities to launch a successful attack within the window of time it takes to destroy a 3rd or 4th ship.


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Come on Crafty, you have been officially called out on your lies. Your online reputation is at stake here, this is just like an old school street race running for pink slips. Its run what you brung and hope its enough. Put up or shut the fuzzy bunny up.


#76
GreyFa1con

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Well, here's an idea.

Make it silent. And make it so the IFF red "Enemy Scanner Mk3" doesn't pop up unless you're looking directly at it. Allow deploying 3x simultaneously if you have a Mk3. And possibility increase it's range a bit.

Then make it so it only detects line-of-sight, and boost-shoot.

I.e. Make it a strategic item, instead of a tactical item.


_

Edited by GreyFa1con, 20 November 2015 - 07:27 AM.

TRIBES: Developed a server mod with 40 servers, 20 clans, and competitive league play.

PLANETSIDE: Got about 30 suggested changes implemented, and 40,000 game downloads via a 1Mb mini-installer I developed.

http://hawken.heroku...user/GreyFa1con

 





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