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MMR Locking - A Short Rant

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#1
crockrocket

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So as I'm sure many of you know, I have been participating in the current season of TPG. As a skrub, this means that my mmr has a tendency to go down during both matches and practices.  Previously, my mmr had been fluctuating between ~1880 and 1940. This meant I could consistently, even with the ridiculous new mmr lock, get into 2200 lobbies when invited. Now that I have dropped to ~1800, I can't get into jack fuzzing fuzz. I have to ignore invites all the fuzzing time, and it bugs the hell out of me because I generally prefer the 2k+ lobbies, and while I'm definitely not topping the scoreboard there, I can hold my own. 

 

Tl;dr: I don't give a flying fuzz about my e-peen, but I shouldn't fell the need to find a mayhem server and tech every time I log in for non-TPG stuff. I feel like I don't have room to play around with new mechs or weapon choices. At least move the + side of the lock back to 500, for christ's sake.


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Salvage: An Idea to Stop Leavers

Player Retention & Howken

 

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[14:32] <Crafty> hawken is unlike anything Ive played

 

 


#2
6ixxer

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Its a hard call to make for the devs. They have to weigh up the experience of new players vs those that are higher skilled and like being challenged.

I'm in a position that if I want to play with people who I find interesting/challenging, I can't get into the lobby, so will have to spend all my time looking for ways to grind my MMR back to where it was many months ago.

 

I'm glad that private servers now ignore MMR. I'm waiting to see the pricing and availability of the next round so that I can get another for Aus region.


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#3
GGGanjaMan

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I'm glad that private servers now ignore MMR.

 

Yea they do ignore mmr. Scrims/TPG matches are always held in private servers too. How are you not able to join private servers crock? If something's buggy with the invite, just find the server through browser and type in password to enter. Your mmr shouldn't have any effect there - I mean just the other day didn't you sub in a scrim against omni? That was a 2400+ lobby I'm pretty sure.


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#4
crockrocket

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Yea they do ignore mmr. Scrims/TPG matches are always held in private servers too. How are you not able to join private servers crock? If something's buggy with the invite, just find the server through browser and type in password to enter. Your mmr shouldn't have any effect there - I mean just the other day didn't you sub in a scrim against omni? That was a 2400+ lobby I'm pretty sure.


Private servers are fine lol, I meant pubs

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Salvage: An Idea to Stop Leavers

Player Retention & Howken

 

[14:31] <Crafty> I know that in my balls
[14:32] <Crafty> hawken is unlike anything Ive played

 

 


#5
Loglino

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Private servers are fine lol, I meant pubs

Yep I love playing against Dave and Xacius too, but it only happens in organized games and private servers :P


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#6
DerMax

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What a preposterous request.

 

You want the devs to change the matchmaking for you alone, because you can't farm enough mmr to play in the bracket you like. Not only that, but you completely disregard the ramifications of bringing the 500-lock back, because you tunnel-vision on yourself. Do you realize how egocentric this request is?


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#7
Draigun

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I think the matchmaking changes don't reflect well for the high tier players. Currently, the matchmaker should never be relied upon for joining a server. Restricted manual joining via MMR requirements were previously at +/- 500. Reloaded reduced this value, which effectively imposed a stricter way of joining a server, for all level of tiers.

 

In terms of game design and theory, this actually would be helpful, since it shortens the chance of a higher MMR spread in each server. But at Hawken's current state, it wouldn't matter anyway. MMR values have already broken the theoretical maximums, which reduce matchmaker effectiveness to a subtle degree—especially when given a change that inherently places barriers on MMR.

 

Reloaded should have not tampered with the requirements to manually join a server, since its effect is rendered null by the lackluster player base.

 

 

--

 

The point is, a tighter MMR lock-out range is not ideal at this time. There is no evidence that indicates a steady influx of players. Low player retention doesn't bode well with some of the recent changes in matchmaking. I'd rather see Reloaded keep the default lock-out range, but still implement the alterations to MM logic.


Edited by Draigun, 01 July 2015 - 12:04 AM.

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#8
Sp3ctrr

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 I don't give a flying fuzz about my e-peen,

 

That's your problem.


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#9
Meraple

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I'd prefer if servers that have an average MMR of atleast 2200 to allow everyone that has a higher MMR to join through the serverbrowser.

 

It's not really neccesary since I can already herokuapp>queue to get in them, but it'd make things much easier.



#10
comic_sans

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What a preposterous request.

 

You want the devs to change the matchmaking for you alone, because you can't farm enough mmr to play in the bracket you like. Not only that, but you completely disregard the ramifications of bringing the 500-lock back, because you tunnel-vision on yourself. Do you realize how egocentric this request is?

 

Do you realize how over the top this post is?


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#11
DerMax

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Do you realize how over the top this post is?

I do, but I made it intentionally over the top, in order to discourage people who think the game's mechanics should revolve around their whim from posting similar requests. Hope it works.


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#12
Hyginos

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I've said this before but:

 

MMR lock needs to have a different value above than below. Playing down should be harder than playing up.


MFW Howken

 

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#13
Kopra

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I've said this before but:
 
MMR lock needs to have a different value above than below. Playing down should be harder than playing up.


What is "playing up and rising to the challenge" to the lower player, looks like waddling to one's obvious death and failing to even scratch the opponent.
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#14
coldform

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At he minimum, one Should be able to join on friends without MMR restrictions. I'm kind of in the same boat as crock - I'll get invited to a game that is well above my level, but must kindly refuse due to fitness range issues.
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I like going against the best of any game I play. Helps you in the long run n motivates u to do more. Always room for improvement not failure

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FIRST OFF WHAT THE FUZZ IS A "SHILL"


#15
Hyginos

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What is "playing up and rising to the challenge" to the lower player, looks like waddling to one's obvious death and failing to even scratch the opponent.

 

Two points:

 

First, I'm not suggesting any player be able to join any server so long as the server average is above their MMR. I'm saying both the upper and lower limit cap should be bumped up by 50-100 MMR.

 

Second, the players that voluntarily persist in waddling to their doom tend to get pretty good pretty quickly in my experience, at least to the point that they can hang in the top server most of the time.


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MFW Howken

 

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#16
StubbornPuppet

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I'm a 1950 avg player and I am constantly still finding myself in 3-star public matches where the SRD is 1400 - 2500.  1-star matches are usually 1500-2100.  2-star matches are 1950 - 2600.

I'm not sure what point I'm making exactly, but I don't see how the lock can be working as described or how people can be having trouble getting into matches of a wide variety of skill.  The whole system barely makes any sense.


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To be serious for a moment this is just a joke

 


#17
CrimsonKaim

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Punish vets, so noobs can have fun!

 

I guess you have to use the matchmaker then :]


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#18
StubbornPuppet

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Punish vets, so noobs can have fun!

 

I guess you have to use the matchmaker then :]

Which comment(s) are you pointing that towards?


To be serious for a moment this is just a joke

 


#19
SS396

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I've said this before but:
 
MMR lock needs to have a different value above than below. Playing down should be harder than playing up.

I'm a 1950 avg player and I am constantly still finding myself in 3-star public matches where the SRD is 1400 - 2500.  1-star matches are usually 1500-2100.  2-star matches are 1950 - 2600.
I'm not sure what point I'm making exactly, but I don't see how the lock can be working as described or how people can be having trouble getting into matches of a wide variety of skill.  The whole system barely makes any sense.


Heres the issue with both of your ideas, the stricter MMR locking is only for invites and joining on friends. Its utterly stupid that while the front door is locked, one can easily just walk to the back door and walk right in the lobby they could not manually join. That is where the system fails and what causes this 1000+ MMR spread.

Crock, there are plenty of ways to play with your friends who are much higher than you and you know it or do you need to me list the myriad of ways to exploit the system?

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#20
Kopra

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Two points:

 

First, I'm not suggesting any player be able to join any server so long as the server average is above their MMR. I'm saying both the upper and lower limit cap should be bumped up by 50-100 MMR.

 

Second, the players that voluntarily persist in waddling to their doom tend to get pretty good pretty quickly in my experience, at least to the point that they can hang in the top server most of the time.

 

It's true that you have to start somewhere, and I've seen some players improve substantially from where they started and where they are now. The thing is, most of the time it feels like they are not trying to go a level upwards, but skipping five or six levels of improvement in between and they simply won't learn anything from being obliterated because they're lacking on the information they should have learned in between the newbie servers and "pro" servers.

 

As it's a team based game and because of how flawed the matchmaker logic is when it comes to big differences in MMR (two fresh 1250 players do not equal a 2500 player, and there can be a lot of difference between a 2200 and 2400 player), the drastically lower MMR player becomes a liability to his team and needs to be babysat. Unless you get newbies in pairs, it's effectively a man down for the team that has the newbie in (not necessarily a 1250 but new to a higher level game type in general).


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#21
DieselCat

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I'm a 1950 avg player and I am constantly still finding myself in 3-star public matches where the SRD is 1400 - 2500.  1-star matches are usually 1500-2100.  2-star matches are 1950 - 2600.

I'm not sure what point I'm making exactly, but I don't see how the lock can be working as described or how people can be having trouble getting into matches of a wide variety of skill.  The whole system barely makes any sense.

 

Agreed...I see the same things happening here.

 

*+

 

Punish vets, so noobs can have fun!

 

I guess you have to use the matchmaker then :]

 

Didn't mean for this to be long winded.

 

No player should be punished to be able to play.....you and I and all  know the game simply needs more players. Till then I think everyone should be able to play any server anytime regardless of skill lvl. I know this may be a can of worms to some but I think the most important thing for now is to get as many people playing at one time as possible till the community grows to a much larger scale. 

 

This may cause some irritation to higher lvl players, in that they feel it would cause their team to suffer in high tier matches with having a new / newer lower skill lvl player on their team. Effectively adding a non-effective player that can't contribute to a win. And I'm sure this would, so lower skill players should be aware of this and try to find matches more suitable for their playstyle. How practical this is, not quite sure. 

 

But I guess that works both ways with top players entering low skill matches, the newer player generally gets destroyed either way. Again, low player population is the disease.

 

I struggle to find matches because of my skill lvl (average player) but try my best whatever game I get into. Not everyone can aspire to the top / Pro ranks (I'm sure I never will) but love playing this game and always try to do better. Hope all players can recognize the different abilities and I think most do.

 

As this game moves forward with the new team on board, I believe that there will be a place for all players to find decent matches and many of them to fit into whatever skill lvl they are or hope to be.

 

   

 

 

 

*+


Edited by DieselCat, 01 July 2015 - 01:19 PM.

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#22
Hyginos

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It's true that you have to start somewhere, and I've seen some players improve substantially from where they started and where they are now. The thing is, most of the time it feels like they are not trying to go a level upwards, but skipping five or six levels of improvement in between and they simply won't learn anything from being obliterated because they're lacking on the information they should have learned in between the newbie servers and "pro" servers.

 

As it's a team based game and because of how flawed the matchmaker logic is when it comes to big differences in MMR (two fresh 1250 players do not equal a 2500 player, and there can be a lot of difference between a 2200 and 2400 player), the drastically lower MMR player becomes a liability to his team and needs to be babysat. Unless you get newbies in pairs, it's effectively a man down for the team that has the newbie in (not necessarily a 1250 but new to a higher level game type in general).

 

I don't disagree with your assessment, but OP isn't talking about playing that far up above his skill level. Allowing an 1800 MMR player into a 2200 avg match is plenty fine IMO, especially considering an 1800 MMR player in a 2200 MMR lobby can happen by accident in the random flow of matchmaking already. I can never remember what the actual MMR lock range is though. Is it actually 400?

 

Perhaps the MMR lock range should widen as MMR goes up to account for the degradation of resolution.


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#23
Kopra

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I don't disagree with your assessment, but OP isn't talking about playing that far up above his skill level. Allowing an 1800 MMR player into a 2200 avg match is plenty fine IMO, especially considering an 1800 MMR player in a 2200 MMR lobby can happen by accident in the random flow of matchmaking already. I can never remember what the actual MMR lock range is though. Is it actually 400?

 

Perhaps the MMR lock range should widen as MMR goes up to account for the degradation of resolution.

Do you mean something like this:

 

1250-1600 = +300, -300

1600-1900 = +400, -300

2000-2200 = +400, -350

2200-2400 = +450, -400

2400-2600 = +450, -450

2600-2800 = +450, -500

2800-3000 = +450, -550


Edited by (KDR) Kopra, 01 July 2015 - 02:35 PM.


#24
crockrocket

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I don't disagree with your assessment, but OP isn't talking about playing that far up above his skill level. Allowing an 1800 MMR player into a 2200 avg match is plenty fine IMO, especially considering an 1800 MMR player in a 2200 MMR lobby can happen by accident in the random flow of matchmaking already. I can never remember what the actual MMR lock range is though. Is it actually 400?

Perhaps the MMR lock range should widen as MMR goes up to account for the degradation of resolution.

AFAIK it's 350

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Salvage: An Idea to Stop Leavers

Player Retention & Howken

 

[14:31] <Crafty> I know that in my balls
[14:32] <Crafty> hawken is unlike anything Ive played

 

 


#25
talon70

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A lower mmr joining a server by invite should always be allowed to a higher level server. Recently I had an invite, it said out of my fitness, but when i checked it was a one star but I still could not join. It was only avg mmr 200 over mine when i looked.

 

I am not sure the segregated levels are always the best structure for this game. It sure doesn't keep the low and high players apart because you still see 1600-2600 and  other issues like that. How bout some Hard Core, open to all, play at your own risk, someone is bound to pound ya, servers?

 

I am all for retaining new players better and they perhaps need segregated servers  and help from the community ambassadors (that's us), for a while. After months or a year of playing you should be not needing as much help. Pilots can never get better if they always play at a  low level.



#26
crockrocket

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I am not sure the segregated levels are always the best structure for this game. It sure doesn't keep the low and high players apart because you still see 1600-2600 and  other issues like that. How bout some Hard Core, open to all, play at your own risk, someone is bound to pound ya, servers?

 

At first I was like, that sounds like the best idea I've heard about this, and then I thought wait that's just the private servers :P


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Salvage: An Idea to Stop Leavers

Player Retention & Howken

 

[14:31] <Crafty> I know that in my balls
[14:32] <Crafty> hawken is unlike anything Ive played

 

 


#27
6ixxer

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At he minimum, one Should be able to join on friends without MMR restrictions. I'm kind of in the same boat as crock - I'll get invited to a game that is well above my level, but must kindly refuse due to fitness range issues.

 

I made a suggestion requesting this.

The answer was making private servers not use MMR.

Looks like its either too hard to implement at this time or they want to encourage people to rent private servers.

 

I don't have a huge problem either way, I'm thinking of renting one cos why not. Just waiting for CapnJosh to update on when I can get one.






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