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Why do we still have a vertical progression system?

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#41
Silverfire

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You can learn a lot from tickle, silver. :0


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#42
Sylhiri

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I play all forms of Infil. Just one publicized match where I play AR Infil and suddenly I'm a plebian.

What is this world come to.

 

AR is a gateway weapon, next thing you know you'll be playing Berserker. Slippery slope man, slippery slope.


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#43
DM30

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...

 

 The removal of the Tuning System was a step in the wrong direction. Big time. Reasons such as "it made the veterens OP" makes me want to facepalm after one look at the over-priced internals and items.

 

...

 

I can understand that the devs did it for balance. But there was so many other ways for them to fix it without utterly removing it. I do not trust people saying that it was horrible when the game had a greater population back then and destroying any chance of me having my own unique mech. As for optimal builds in the tuning system - stuff them. I just want to have fun.

 

Removing the tuning system was exactly the right direction, for exactly the reasons that you dismiss so quickly in your post. The main problem with the tuning system was that it stifled diversity instead of promoting it.

 

It DID make veterans much more powerful than new players, or even just more powerful than experienced players buying a new mech. If you had 100 more armour than your opponent, and faster cooling weapons, and more fuel to maneuver with, and better radar range, then skill stopped mattering. You had a better mech than they did, and you didn't have to work as hard to win. Buying a new mech became an undesirable situation, because you knew that you would have to claw your way up through the levels while always being at a statistical disadvantage. Not only did the people you were fighting against have more experience with the mech, their mech was just flat out better. Better to just stick with the mechs you already have maxed out.

 

Balance was a nightmare with the tuning system in place. IIRC, the mechs had seven categories that you could put points into. Seven different maximum and minimum values that the devs had to take into account for every single mech. Mechs like the Scout laughed at balance during this time, because if it had no tuning points in armour it was incredibly delicate, but with 100 extra armour points Scouts could actually tank secondary shots without breaking a sweat, especially if orbs were on the ground. On top of keeping its advantages in mobility and burst damage. I still hear people complain that mechs like Scout are OP now, but they really WERE back then, and the tuning system was a big contributing factor.

 

And then there were the gimmicks that the tuning system led to, like Techs and Grenadiers with full points in overheat recovery. There was absolutely no reason to manage your heat anymore, because doing a full overheat and recovery was actually FASTER than stopping firing and letting your weapons cool down normally. Full Air Dynamics Zerkers were faster in the air than boosting on the ground, and they had this speed in all directions including backwards. There was zero reason for them to not be flying when they had the fuel to do so. Sure, they're still fast in the air now, but it's not as over the top as it was and Air Compressor is actually required if you want to make a flying Zerker effective, whereas with tuning they were fast enough already that it was optional.

 

Optimal builds were also a very real concern, as quick as you are to ignore them. Someone who didn't put full points into armour was handicapping themselves severely for no reason at all, and that's one third of your available tuning points gone already. Each mech had categories that were objectively better to max out than others, and so sure, you could 'customize' your mech, but only if you wanted to fight an uphill battle against people that were following the established best setup. People generally like winning. If you didn't use the optimal build, it was harder to win. Disincentive for customization.

 

Sure, the internal system that ADH left when they removed tuning still makes vets stronger than noobs like you say, but then this internal system was introduced in Ascension alongside tuning. It isn't something that they replaced tuning with, it just wasn't removed at the same time that tuning was. It's still broken in terms of vertical progression, and that's exactly the point that Tickle is addressing in this thread. It's not an argument against the removal of tuning. It's just an incomplete job by ADH.


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#44
GreyFa1con

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TF2 does it. Locking weapons is reasonable.

Just tough with locked items and internals.

But yeah, some players need a treadmill.
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#45
bacon_avenger

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So if we will change current system from "equip your mech from scratch" to "alter your mech's equipment",  then it will be much more like tuning system from my POV.

So, kind of what we had back in the start of open beta?  :tongue: 

 

The biggest complaint I remember from that time was the lack of options, no one complained about the give and take it used.


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#46
Sylhiri

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So, kind of what we had back in the start of open beta?  :tongue:

 

The biggest complaint I remember from that time was the lack of options, no one complained about the give and take it used.

 

You mean the internals or the tuning trees?



#47
bacon_avenger

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You mean the internals or the tuning trees?

Internals.  The tuning tree was ascension (the attempt by meteor to bring in the CoD player crowd), well after the start of open beta.  Virtually no one in either round of the HAB liked the tuning tree thing.

 

The tuning tree was a very strong vertical system, which was the opposite of what we were told from the beginning, that the game was going to have a horizontal progression system.

 

If it's not somewhat obvious, I'm in the 'glad that it's gone' camp.  That system was broken in so many ways...


Edited by bacon_avenger, 06 October 2015 - 11:45 AM.

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#48
DM30

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Internals. The tuning tree was ascension (the attempt by meteor to bring in the CoD player crowd), well after the start of open beta.


Pre-Ascension had the Optimazation Tree which was essentially the same thing. But since you meant Internals that's kind of irrelevant.

I also liked the +/- style of the old internals, actually.
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#49
Kindos7

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Just one publicized match where I play AR Infil and suddenly I'm a plebian.

 

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#50
Amidatelion

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I'm actually pretty hungover, so my interpretation of some of the above posts are...

 

HOW THE fuzzy bunny ARE YOU HUNGOVER IT WAS 11pm WHEN WE QUIT AND YOU WERE SOBER AF



#51
comic_sans

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Just one publicized match where I play AR Infil and suddenly I'm a plebian.

 

That is exactly how fast it works.


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#52
Massive_Assailant_Stingray

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TF2 does it. Locking weapons is reasonable.

Just tough with locked items and internals.

But yeah, some players need a treadmill.

 

TF2 is a lot different, where a stock load out is pretty even with most side grades in the game. (baring some very obvious upgrades, most stock melee isn't up to par with unlocks.) Not to mention in tf2, a stock load out is also a full load out. Don't you have to level up a mech before you can start to think about equiping certain things, even if you have the credits for them anyways? Also pretty much anything you could want in tf2, outside of cosmetics, is a free flowing sea of duplicates. Where you either will find it randomly, have it thrown at your face by another player if you ask nicely enough (or probly at all on most servers), or you could make it. If none of that works you could pick it up for 10 cents, which is cheaper than anything you could buy for this game, and you won't have to level up to equip it.

 

There's nothing wrong with gating content. Vertical progression just sucks, and is disgusting to see in a shooter. It's always really bugged me about hawken. But honestly sometimes I just don't know if it's really that big of a deal. Even though I think it's repulsive.



#53
ticklemyiguana

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HOW THE fuzzy bunny ARE YOU HUNGOVER IT WAS 11pm WHEN WE QUIT AND YOU WERE SOBER AF


No haha. No I wasn't.

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#54
Nov8tr

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And now for something totally different...................

 

 


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#55
Sylhiri

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Pre-Ascension had the Optimazation Tree which was essentially the same thing. But since you meant Internals that's kind of irrelevant.

I also liked the +/- style of the old internals, actually.

 

^

 

74f04a744902ae5e2f8d326a1429cc2a.jpg

 

I liked how the internals were catagorized into three sections so you had to make a decision of what to pick.

 

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Edited by Sylhiri, 06 October 2015 - 12:54 PM.

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#56
ticklemyiguana

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And now for something totally different...................
 

 

I do this on first dates. I mean. My car sounds are a little better, but still.
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#57
Amidatelion

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No haha. No I wasn't.


Fired.

#58
DeliciousHaterade

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Internals.  The tuning tree was ascension (the attempt by meteor to bring in the CoD player crowd), well after the start of open beta.  Virtually no one in either round of the HAB liked the tuning tree thing.

 

The tuning tree was a very strong vertical system, which was the opposite of what we were told from the beginning, that the game was going to have a horizontal progression system.

 

If it's not somewhat obvious, I'm in the 'glad that it's gone' camp.  That system was broken in so many ways...

 

The suggestion was repeatedly made and subsequently ignored to make the tuning system a "give and take" deal, i.e. you start with all your points pre-assigned and leveling up allows you to take those points and shuffle them around. So everyone would have had the same amount of points, and the more you progress, the more you're allowed to customize.

 

I personally liked being able to do things like run a full-armor zerker without air dynamics or a no-armor scout with maxed mobility. Being able to toy around with builds that were considered sub-optimal gave day-to-day gameplay a lot more longevity for me.



#59
TheButtSatisfier

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The suggestion was repeatedly made and subsequently ignored to make the tuning system a "give and take" deal, i.e. you start with all your points pre-assigned and leveling up allows you to take those points and shuffle them around. So everyone would have had the same amount of points, and the more you progress, the more you're allowed to customize.

 

I personally liked being able to do things like run a full-armor zerker without air dynamics or a no-armor scout with maxed mobility. Being able to toy around with builds that were considered sub-optimal gave day-to-day gameplay a lot more longevity for me.

 

Though I wasn't there to experience this, it sounds like having this system would be a breath of fresh air compared to the ubiquitous internal loadouts we see now. I'd still expect optimized tuning loadouts to emerge - just like there's optimal internal loadouts now - but the breadth and gradation of customization would be more rewarding.

 

Then again, maybe it would turn into a total fuzzy bunny show. Who knows.


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#60
_incitatus

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Don't you have to level up a mech before you can start to think about equiping certain things, even if you have the credits for them anyways?


Yes. And this needs to go. It's very unfair to lock something like AC away behind a level restriction but allow AC equipped players to play against people who haven't leveled up that far. Same with MK III items and the rest of the it. Why? So players waste HC on MK I stuff that they will replace when they are "allowed" to but what they really wanted in the first place.
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#61
phed

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I was a fan of the way they implemented tuning at the start of open beta, except for the points being lelvel locked and the offense tree being pointless.

Under this system there seemed to be even more flexibility in mech customization.

Internals were handled better at that time as well.

#62
comic_sans

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Then again, maybe it would turn into a total fuzzy bunny show. Who knows.

 

It was a total shitshow and boy oh boy was it fun to be a scout at 1900 mmr.


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#63
Dawn_of_Ash

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Removing the tuning system was exactly the right direction, for exactly the reasons that you dismiss so quickly in your post. The main problem with the tuning system was that it stifled diversity instead of promoting it.

 

It DID make veterans much more powerful than new players, or even just more powerful than experienced players buying a new mech. If you had 100 more armour than your opponent, and faster cooling weapons, and more fuel to maneuver with, and better radar range, then skill stopped mattering. You had a better mech than they did, and you didn't have to work as hard to win. Buying a new mech became an undesirable situation, because you knew that you would have to claw your way up through the levels while always being at a statistical disadvantage. Not only did the people you were fighting against have more experience with the mech, their mech was just flat out better. Better to just stick with the mechs you already have maxed out.

 

Balance was a nightmare with the tuning system in place. IIRC, the mechs had seven categories that you could put points into. Seven different maximum and minimum values that the devs had to take into account for every single mech. Mechs like the Scout laughed at balance during this time, because if it had no tuning points in armour it was incredibly delicate, but with 100 extra armour points Scouts could actually tank secondary shots without breaking a sweat, especially if orbs were on the ground. On top of keeping its advantages in mobility and burst damage. I still hear people complain that mechs like Scout are OP now, but they really WERE back then, and the tuning system was a big contributing factor.

 

And then there were the gimmicks that the tuning system led to, like Techs and Grenadiers with full points in overheat recovery. There was absolutely no reason to manage your heat anymore, because doing a full overheat and recovery was actually FASTER than stopping firing and letting your weapons cool down normally. Full Air Dynamics Zerkers were faster in the air than boosting on the ground, and they had this speed in all directions including backwards. There was zero reason for them to not be flying when they had the fuel to do so. Sure, they're still fast in the air now, but it's not as over the top as it was and Air Compressor is actually required if you want to make a flying Zerker effective, whereas with tuning they were fast enough already that it was optional.

 

Optimal builds were also a very real concern, as quick as you are to ignore them. Someone who didn't put full points into armour was handicapping themselves severely for no reason at all, and that's one third of your available tuning points gone already. Each mech had categories that were objectively better to max out than others, and so sure, you could 'customize' your mech, but only if you wanted to fight an uphill battle against people that were following the established best setup. People generally like winning. If you didn't use the optimal build, it was harder to win. Disincentive for customization.

 

Sure, the internal system that ADH left when they removed tuning still makes vets stronger than noobs like you say, but then this internal system was introduced in Ascension alongside tuning. It isn't something that they replaced tuning with, it just wasn't removed at the same time that tuning was. It's still broken in terms of vertical progression, and that's exactly the point that Tickle is addressing in this thread. It's not an argument against the removal of tuning. It's just an incomplete job by ADH.

 

The problem with the tuning system, it seems, was that it mattered so much. What if, everything was reduced? What if the max armour you could put on a mech is around 20-50 instead of the 100 you mentioned? Some of the current internals are pathetically weak and are not game-changing at all - which they should be. But I think that the tuning system should have followed a similar path and just nerf it/change it instead of full-out removing it.

 

You made valid points, DM, and ones I am not going to dismiss either. But your view is completely the view of someone who has tried the tuning system and noticed how bad it is. Of someone who has entered the game with the TS in place and is at an elite level when you noticed how unbalanced it is. Keyword here - elite. The current Hawken does not appeal to people who want to just have fun but who want to challenge themselves and get better at the game. Balance is important, but fun should be a priority. My point I was trying to get across in my sleep-deprived state when I wrote the message was that the removal of the TS made the game all-the-more COD-like.

 

The reason I dismissed optimal builds is because I didn't know that the Tuning System was as powerful as you had mentioned. But regardless, people should not dismiss the TS entirely when it could have been changed to be less effective and less game-changing.

 

And for the reason I want the TS back so bad - the illusion of choice and progression. If you feel like you are progressing toward something then you would play longer. Playing longer = greater view of the game = recognition of the smaller details of Hawken which makes it different to COD = playing more = greater population = :D

 

Maybe population is not much of deal with USians and EUians, but in other places, you would notice that they are pretty much dead. And right now, i care more about population than keeping an entirely "balanced" system. 


Edited by Dawn_of_Ash, 06 October 2015 - 02:59 PM.


#64
bacon_avenger

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Pre-Ascension had the Optimazation Tree which was essentially the same thing. But since you meant Internals that's kind of irrelevant.

Yes it did, as Sylhiri pointed out as well.

The big difference was that ADH deliberately nerfed it into the ground to make it as ineffective as possible and constantly reminded us that it was just a place holder until a 'true horizontal system' could be put into place.

Then we were presented with ascension, and things went downhill from there.
 

I also liked the +/- style of the old internals, actually.

As did I, and I've been advocating for their return (or something close to it) since they went away.

 

In my opinion, the tuning tree from ascension might have been repairable if it had not been 100% gain with no downsides and had been consistent across mechs (each one had different things that could be adjusted).

The lack of consistency may have been an attempt to further define a roll for each mech, I don't know, but I found it to be a bad design idea.


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#65
GreyFa1con

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Never saw the tuning system, but I'm glad it's not in. Would be a headache to balance for gameplay meta.

Also it's a big barrier to entry for new players. And we need new players.

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#66
Ashfire908

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*ignores all posts except op*

We already tried undoing the pilot level lock on buying items/internals with hc but found it can't be done without a client patch.
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#67
ticklemyiguana

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*ignores all posts except op*

We already tried undoing the pilot level lock on buying items/internals with hc but found it can't be done without a client patch.

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#68
Dawn_of_Ash

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...that Dawn is scraping the surface of something accurate. All fun factors equal, a game that makes you feel like you're progressing is going to hold the attention of players better than a game that doesn't.
 

 

Geez thanks Tickle. x) "Scraping the surface", not like I spent an hour typing and thinking about the whole message wanting to be ignored. Granted, I was tired and I worded the whole post wrong and I think my point was lost in the jumble of emotions and sleepiness.

 

But still, "scraping the surface". XD Haaaaaaaaaarsh.



#69
DM30

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The suggestion was repeatedly made and subsequently ignored to make the tuning system a "give and take" deal, i.e. you start with all your points pre-assigned and leveling up allows you to take those points and shuffle them around. So everyone would have had the same amount of points, and the more you progress, the more you're allowed to customize.

 

I personally liked being able to do things like run a full-armor zerker without air dynamics or a no-armor scout with maxed mobility. Being able to toy around with builds that were considered sub-optimal gave day-to-day gameplay a lot more longevity for me.

 

I expect this kind of system could work with enough careful thought put into it, but the problem still arises that if the difference between min tuned and max tuned is too high it makes balancing mechs much, much more difficult. Having a pre-assigned starting point and two directions of tuning does give some more flexibility, but it would still be a concern.

 

I'm just biased against tuning at this point after seeing it fail twice. I naturally assume that if Reloaded were to spend time and energy on a new implementation that it would just be wasted in the end.


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