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XP reward for healing must be reduced

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#1
Elite_is_salty

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I don't think this's been brought up in the new forums meaning the new devs probably don't realize that most of the community agrees that the amount of XP rewarded to the tech for healing teammates is way over the deserved amount.

 

I think it's pretty fair to cut it by two fifths. Meaning make it only 60% of what it currently rewards.

 

A lot of us are probably never happy seeing techs taking the MVP rank effortlessly while you've been trying your best and end up second. Also tech has become a very cheap way of boosting MMR.

 

 

 

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Edited by Elite Trash Talker, 11 June 2015 - 09:37 AM.

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#2
BIsmuthZornisse

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actualy, doesn't the technician also get the assist of the the ally it's healing? I'm pretty sure i got 100% assists that way before. That would probably inflate the tech pilot's score.

I have a lot of ideas and would like some feedback on them:

Suggestions for fixing things:

https://community.pl...of-suggestions/

Suggestions for new things:

https://community.pl...for-new-things/


#3
Panzermanathod

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I don't think this's been brought up in the new forums

It has. Multiple times.

 

Just letting you know.


Edited by Panzermanathod, 11 June 2015 - 09:57 AM.


#4
TheButtSatisfier

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It has. Multiple times.

 

Just letting you know.

 

I haven't seen it, so I appreciate OP raising the topic (again).


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#5
Kopra

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Just kill the tech! Lowest hp in game! Dead techs cannot get points!  :yucky:


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#6
Elite_is_salty

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Just kill the tech! Lowest hp in game! Dead techs cannot get points!  :yucky:

 

What about when he's your teammate? And it's not about it's effectiveness so that you bring up that annoying repetitive point. We're talking about generated XP.


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#7
HepTagoN

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I would leave them as they are, or in case actual descrasing their score - make change small. They jsut deserve to be MVP as they allow you to pew pew lot more, instead of boring duck sitting and waiting to get your HP back.



#8
MomOw

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I agree that tech scoring is too high. Most of the time when I get 300, I feel that I deserve more ~200.

But I think that the way tech score should be looked at to but emphasis on healing the whole team and trying to shoot while healing instead of just staying hidden behind a corridor healing a C-Class.

 

So :

- reduce overall scoring

- add "multi heal" bonus when you heal at least x% of Mech max HP for more than y Mech in less than z seconds

- no "assist" when you only heal a Mech, but an increased assist bonus when you heal and shoot

(and maybe some "assist" reward when RE-D0X debuff increase teammate damages)


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#9
Kopra

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What about when he's your teammate? And it's not about it's effectiveness so that you bring up that annoying repetitive point. We're talking about generated XP.

 

Maybe I should've added more exclamation marks and smileys to indicate that the post wasn't of serious nature.


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#10
Sylhiri

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I would leave them as they are, or in case actual descrasing their score - make change small. They jsut deserve to be MVP as they allow you to pew pew lot more, instead of boring duck sitting and waiting to get your HP back.

 

Repair Charge MVP. Make it happen.



#11
Amidatelion

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"Must" is not a word I would use.

Sure, decreasing it a bit might be nice, but it's nowhere near important enough to warrant a must, as if it were a priority.

Orblording, Incinerator, sticky walls, GUI, new player experience and just about every other issue brought up here is more of a must than this.
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#12
HassanTheAssassin

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I main a Tech. The approach to the Technician's overall build is flawed. It should, if anything be hugely buffed in all aspects, and here's why:

Tech has been repeatedly nerfed over and over since it was introduced. Quit nerfing it, and fix the problem itself:

Tech's meta.

My slant is that what should be done is either make the Tech the ONLY means of healing/HP-regeneration (without the capacity to heal itself) in the game to include eliminating the Orbs, or get rid of it. This has been posted before, but it really should be looked at.

I'm not sure if there is any other FPS game out there that has both self healing and a Medic running around healing (including himself) AND getting "paid" for it, and Balls of Magic too.

It just sorta reeks.

The Tech is fine as is. It's the game-build around him that is hosed. Balance the game first.

Fix it. Then decide if the Tech is over-nerfed, OP, or what. :no:


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#13
The_Silencer

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not a new issue, this mech needs of a revision.

 

P.S. Say thanks upon a time to techies running here and there as crazy to save your A$$es on the battlefield, Ok? That would be very cool as a normal basis.. you know. (Don't feel bad if you already do...)


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#14
Panzermanathod

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I haven't seen it, so I appreciate OP raising the topic (again).

I'm not giving the OP any flak for making this thread, and I've nothing against this topic coming up again. OP didn't think the topic had came up in the new forums, I corrected him. No big deal.



#15
The_Silencer

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just to clarify, I wasn't harsh nor negative towards the OP with my previous comment. I don't use to do that. Just posted my opinion on the matter and hoping that the devs know well already on the need of a revision&fix for the Technician.


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#16
Guns_N_Rozer

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without team work Tech is useless , and i love to hug techs because they r looks like girls  :teehee: so yeah kill the tech  :pirate:


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#17
BaronSaturday

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It doesn't need reduced rewards for healing, it need reduced rewards for assists from healing.
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#18
Sylhiri

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I'm not sure if there is any other FPS game out there that has both self healing and a Medic running around healing (including himself) AND getting "paid" for it...

 

Dirty Bomb has self regeneration and 2 out of 4 medics released, one has medic packs where you throw on the ground and gives bonus healing on direct hits (enemies can pick the packs up as well) and the other has a turret like healing station that is an AoE but is stationary.


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#19
Elite_is_salty

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It doesn't need reduced rewards for healing, it need reduced rewards for assists from healing.

 

That's also another good point. A tech can receive 20 XP as assist reward without making dmg.


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#20
comic_sans

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Does the tech get an assist if they healed the mech getting the kill, but were not healing them during the actual killshot?


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#21
Titanus

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as the tech is by far the easiest to kill(in a battle, thats the first mech i target) the fact that they can top the charts means they are doing their job well.  an awesome tech with a crappy team will almost never top the chart, at least from what ive seen.  also a crappy tech with a great team will also never top the charts.  why shouldnt a mech that can keep most or all of his team alive so they can win the game be on or near the mvp?  



#22
Elite_is_salty

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Does the tech get an assist if they healed the mech getting the kill, but were not healing them during the actual killshot?

 

Yes, you'll get 16XP in that case.


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#23
TheButtSatisfier

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Removing the mechanic that grants XP on assist from healing may work, but I'd like to keep it so that assists from healing still trigger internals like armor fusor and replenisher.


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#24
Aims

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I main a Tech. The approach to the Technician's overall build is flawed. It should, if anything be hugely buffed in all aspects, and here's why:

Tech has been repeatedly nerfed over and over since it was introduced. Quit nerfing it, and fix the problem itself:

Tech's meta.

My slant is that what should be done is either make the Tech the ONLY means of healing/HP-regeneration (without the capacity to heal itself) in the game to include eliminating the Orbs, or get rid of it. This has been posted before, but it really should be looked at.

I'm not sure if there is any other FPS game out there that has both self healing and a Medic running around healing (including himself) AND getting "paid" for it, and Balls of Magic too.

It just sorta reeks.

The Tech is fine as is. It's the game-build around him that is hosed. Balance the game first.

Fix it. Then decide if the Tech is over-nerfed, OP, or what. :no:

Was mentally preparing a rebuttal after the first sentence but I'm glad to have read onward! 

This has been a colossal issue with Hawken since its introduction and, in my opinion, probably has a lot to do with why so many of us dislike the tech so much. The game was built and balanced around much older mechanics then had the tech shoehorned into it; the healing orbs on death originally gave people a reason to play aggressively and kept the pace up when mechs had larger health pools.

Seeing as how at this point there is very little hope of that game returning (or the tech being removed), we need to at least TRIAL no health orbs on death (and possibly no repair charge item) and then alter the tech.

This will doubtfully fix the problems it caused but it seems like a great place to begin. Certainly not the first time this has been brought up either but worth reiterating. 


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#25
TheButtSatisfier

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[Remove orbs]

 

I'd be concerned that techs would become necessary if orbs were removed. I don't like the idea of having any mech be necessary in a match. Right now there's pretty decent balance between mech roles; multiple mechs can do burst, sniping, sustain, and so on. But only one mech can do healing on the move, and orbs make it possible to heal a team on the move without having to rely on a tech. Take orbs away and you're forced to use a mech to achieve the same thing.


Edited by TheButtSatisfier, 12 June 2015 - 09:42 AM.

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#26
Aims

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I'd be concerned that techs would become necessary if orbs were removed. I don't like the idea of having any mech be necessary in a match. Right now there's pretty decent balance between mech roles; multiple mechs can do burst, sniping, sustain, and so on. But only one mech can do healing on the move, and orbs make it possible to heal a team on the move without having to rely on a tech. Take orbs away and you're forced to use a mech to achieve the same thing.

You're already forced to use a tech in a serious game if you want to have any chance of keeping up with the other team's tech+incin+heavy deathball. I also dislike the idea of any particular mech being necessary in a match but the tech arguably is anyway. This might just force teams to position themselves more carefully and bring back some of the risk vs reward gameplay. 

 


Edited by Aims, 12 June 2015 - 09:56 AM.


#27
TheButtSatisfier

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You're already forced to use a tech in a serious game if you want to have any chance of keeping up with the other team's tech+incin+heavy deathball. This might just force teams to position themselves more carefully and bring back some of the risk vs reward gameplay. 
 

 

There's been multiple TPG scrims recently where one team ran a tech and another team didn't, and it wasn't as lopsided as you'd imagine. No team is "forced" to use a tech to be competitive. Some compositions work better with a tech present, but they can be countered. Removing orbs while keeping techs relatively the same would make techs as necessary as you're making them out to be.


Edited by TheButtSatisfier, 12 June 2015 - 10:01 AM.

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#28
Panzermanathod

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If the orbs were removed... maybe it would just mean players die more often, more defensive play would needed (possibly moreso if Techs were the only source of healing), and then we just might have the same issues all over again about the tech being an issue.

 

It's not like removing orbs is absolutely an improvement to Hawken.



#29
Amidatelion

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There's been multiple TPG scrims recently where one team ran a tech and another team didn't, and it wasn't as lopsided as you'd imagine. No team is "forced" to use a tech to be competitive. Some compositions work better with a tech present, but they can be countered. Removing orbs while keeping techs relatively the same would make techs as necessary as you're making them out to be.

 

Thing is, that's in MA and Siege. A tech is an actively liability in MA and only useful in the AA portion of Siege. Most people's experience is in TDM. In a TDM a TPG team with a tech will beat a TPG team without, all else being equal.


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#30
TheButtSatisfier

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In a TDM a TPG team with a tech will beat a TPG team without, all else being equal.

 

Could a few other TPG participants validate this point?


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#31
Drusus

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As a newer returning Hawken player, the xp on the Tech doesn't seem to be the issue.

 

The fact that the Tech is the ONLY mech that operates in this capacity on the other hand seems, as someone else rightly put, shoehorned into the model.

 

In my limited experience thus far, the Tech seems to be the single best way to mitigate and manage the observably over-rapid TTK.  

 

The fact that the healing weapon is the ever irritating 'Healer Leash' forcing a Tech to dedicate itself to running around behind a heavy I'd argue is a major part of hte problem there too.

 

Small hitpoint pool coupled with the short range, steady stream lock on beam means a Tech has to essentially commit to being a tag along to 1, maybe 2 wingmen to patch them up steadily.  This further relegates the Technician to playing 'Mister Target' as they have to be right there at the point of engagement rather than doing their support role from a more tactically viable position.  Even if this is intended to keep the Tech in current format from being overly dangerous, it locks it into operating in an undesirable way imho.

 

I would have expected the Helix to operate much more similarly to the Nanite Restoration System from Global Agenda, namely a 'shot' that upon impacting the target does it's fixed value of repair (and can even apply that as a HoT to stop it from burst healing someone ridiculously).

 

But that is probably besides the point.

 

I would argue that Technicians are artificially influencing the landscape simply because the damage model is so small in the first place, far too much twitch over tactical, but I may just be biased in this regard and as I said, this is a newcomer perspective.

 

I will be curious if that feeling holds after more hours of play but I would certainly think the leveling component of the Technician is the least point of concern overall; leveling ones pilot level doesn't seem to be that critical or difficult regardless of what you're driving, time commitment wise so I must be missing the criticality of this element?



#32
DM30

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Just a little anecdotal account in support of OP:

 

A little while back I was in an organized Siege scrim where I played tech for the first time in months. My healing was far less efficient than it should have been with me constantly letting my heal beam get blocked by obstacles or ending up just out of range to heal my target. On top of that my positioning was crap and I died a LOT, making me lose upward of a full minute of potential healing time while waiting for the respawn counter.

 

And I got MVP.

 

In a match with several players who are significantly better than me.

 

So yeah, I would say that the Tech's score/XP rewards for healing are a little out of line.


Edited by DM30, 12 June 2015 - 02:34 PM.

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#33
BaronSaturday

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I main a Tech. The approach to the Technician's overall build is flawed. It should, if anything be hugely buffed in all aspects, and here's why:
Tech has been repeatedly nerfed over and over since it was introduced. Quit nerfing it, and fix the problem itself:
Tech's meta.
My slant is that what should be done is either make the Tech the ONLY means of healing/HP-regeneration (without the capacity to heal itself) in the game to include eliminating the Orbs, or get rid of it. This has been posted before, but it really should be looked at.
I'm not sure if there is any other FPS game out there that has both self healing and a Medic running around healing (including himself) AND getting "paid" for it, and Balls of Magic too.
It just sorta reeks.
The Tech is fine as is. It's the game-build around him that is hosed. Balance the game first.
Fix it. Then decide if the Tech is over-nerfed, OP, or what. :no:


No no no no. The Tech is perfectly fine where it is except that it gains rewards for things it does not do. You wanna make the Tech OP then removing all other forms of healing is how you do it. As it stands, the Tech is not required on any team. Your suggestion would make it requires. Period. It won't be removed so we can all stop saying that now.

As for other games not having self heals and heals I give you WoW, Tera, SWtOR and almost every other MMO with competitive PVP. Besides that, just because other game doesn't mean this game.

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#34
CraftyDus

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Could a few other TPG participants validate this point?


Season 1 was TDM
Most Teams ran a tech/incin
Games for the most part reminded me of a hyena pack trying to intimidate a lion pride off a freshly killed fellow hyena
With each team taking turns at who was which
Death balls colliding and regrouping, the occasional rout
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#35
Pelanthoris

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Currently tech gets too much, too easily imho. I don't see decreasing the xp to be an urgent point tho. I would make tech a tad more difficult by decreasing it's self heal rate and increase armor a bit. Then also the tech would be required to heal itself from time to time, decreasing the time team gets healed.
If xp is touched, I'd start by a drastic decrease of xp for healing and introduce significant xp multipliers for healing many team members. That way being a pocket tech wouldn't pay so well.

Edited by Pelanthoris, 13 June 2015 - 06:00 AM.

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#36
Nept

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Thing is, that's in MA and Siege. A tech is an actively liability in MA and only useful in the AA portion of Siege. Most people's experience is in TDM. In a TDM a TPG team with a tech will beat a TPG team without, all else being equal.

Could a few other TPG participants validate this point?

Re: TDM composition, I'd say no.  A TDM team running tech has an advantage if they slow the pace of the game and use cover competently, but they're liable to be overrun by skilled, aggressive opponents.  Techs are also easy prey for strong Sharpshooters and coordinated offensives.  Omni preferred running sans tech on most maps, and our lineup depended more on player availability (and specialization) than on some composition meta.  Techs were only "essential" when mechs had higher health pools across the board, and when their heal rates were ridiculous. 
 

Again, teams often get it in their heads that they have to run this or that.  In my opinion, teams should determine composition through their skill levels and their overarching strategy.  Tech + Incinerator was a terrible idea for most teams in Season 1 (and honestly, even for the second- and third- place teams), yet they were all convinced it was essential and amazing.

 

As for techs in MA, I don't think that they're necessarily liabilities.  Just depends on what you're doing with them, and how they integrate with your player placement.

 

*Edit* Should also mention that during our 3v3 and 4v4 intra-team TDM practices, the tech team was often obliterated.


Edited by Nept, 13 June 2015 - 11:02 AM.


#37
Merl61

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Could a few other TPG participants validate this point?

Validate

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#38
Elite_is_salty

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It has. Multiple times.

 

Just letting you know.

 

No one knows the forums better than I do bud.


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#39
Elite_is_salty

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No no no no. The Tech is perfectly fine where it is except that it gains rewards for things it does not do. You wanna make the Tech OP then removing all other forms of healing is how you do it. As it stands, the Tech is not required on any team. Your suggestion would make it requires. Period. It won't be removed so we can all stop saying that now.

As for other games not having self heals and heals I give you WoW, Tera, SWtOR and almost every other MMO with competitive PVP. Besides that, just because other game doesn't mean this game.

 

No no no no, you don't understand what I said. So know what to answer friend. It's about the generated XP. There's not tech on my team that does better than me or gives more effort. But at the end he/she gets a higher rank. It's enough that I only play infil and gren, too mechs that don't have it easy like the likes of assault or zeker.


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#40
BaronSaturday

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No no no no, you don't understand what I said. So know what to answer friend. It's about the generated XP. There's not tech on my team that does better than me or gives more effort. But at the end he/she gets a higher rank. It's enough that I only play infil and gren, too mechs that don't have it easy like the likes of assault or zeker.


That also wasn't a reply to you... So... I'm not sure how your point is relevant to the conversation. I've already said, in this thread and many others, that the rewards for assists while healing and not dealing damage need to be reduced or removed entirely.

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