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Explain to me the "server_balancer" system.

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#1
llYuraXLozhll

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Alright. 

 

I am a new player here. Downloaded the game yesterday. Jumped into servers with 3 stars. Guess what I got? 

 

2 matches in a row my team was full of 1-15 levels, and enemy team had 2-3 30 levels, and half of their team being 20-25 levels. 

 

Why is that server called "3 stars"? I don't get it. 

 

And why are 30 levels allowed into those servers? They have upgraded weapons, mechs, they at least played more than 500 matches, and you place players below 100 matches vs them? 

 

I can understand the "not all 30 levels play good" excuse, but really. They have everything upgraded, the server is 3 stars and you intentionally place new players vs so called veterans. 

 

 


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#2
llYuraXLozhll

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Almost 5 days away and yet no explanation for a new player. :( 



#3
crockrocket

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Upgraded is kind of a misnomer. Everything is more just different options than it is an upgrade. 


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#4
Rainbow_Sheep

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The matchmaker struggles with a low player base. As hawken becomes more popular, this should slowly improve.

The "upgrades" that the other pilots have do not give a significant advantage to the player over other players. Indeed, new players start off in a fully loaded assault which is widely considered the best all round mech.
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#5
StubbornPuppet

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The matchmaker and team-balancers do work very, very well, but suffer from a few variables that simply cannot be accounted for.

 

The matchmaking and balancer to not work based on a players Level.  They work based on something called Match Maker Rating (MMR).  It uses a complex algorithm that determines a players level of actual "skill" in Hawken, based on the rest of the player base.  It adjusts every match.  You can see what your MMR and what the Standard Rating Deviation (SRD) is by adding "Scrimbot" to your friends list.  Just start a chat with it and type either mmr or srd to get those figures. :)

 

Now, the two pain points for matchmaking and team balancing:

 

1. There is a low total player count at the moment and the matchmaker adjusts to account for that.  This way, even when there are fewer players, everyone still finds full matches to play.  It's a bit frustrating, but it's actually a better thing than having a bunch of mostly empty lobbies.  It will get better when Hawken gets an official "relaunch".

 

2. The auto-balancer does what it does very well, but a few things that people do can cause this to look like it's not.

  • When players start the match before the lobby is mostly full.  If you start with only 5 players, the balancer will obviously put the first player to join on the team with fewer players - if that player happens to be awesome... you see what I mean, that's the right way to handle it, but it can throw of "balance".
  • When a player joins a game, where teams are even, the balancer chooses the team who is losing to get the new player.  Same condition as above applies.
  • If a player quits mid match, the same as above applies when a new player joins.

 

And I believe that is the correct way to handle both.

 

The alternatives, like asking players joining a match in progress to sit in limbo waiting for another player of the same skill level to join before they can be assigned a team and actually play is just going to make people leave the match and, ultimately, the game.  And force switching players to other teams to create better balance mid-match is a really bad idea.


To be serious for a moment this is just a joke

 


#6
Silverfire

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Nothing really is an upgrade IMO outside a few internals and I don't find them necessary. More like options. More options.

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#7
Call_Me_Ishmael

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Player level is really only an indicator that a player has been playing for a few weeks.

 

The star-rating system (much disliked) is based on a matchmaker rating, which is based on how well you perform in matches.  The better the rating (more stars), the closer you are to the server average skill (it's distance from the average.  1 star is much farther - above or below - between your skill and the server's current players' average skill).

 

If you're quickly seeing lots of players with some skill, it means you had enough skill for the matchmaking system to notice.  See this post: https://community.pl...cel-thisisreal/

 

As others have said, most internals are not upgrades - the only ones I can think of that are are Deflectors (better armor while dodging/boosting) and Extractor (faster extraction of health or EU). 

 

Air compressor is not necessary, and I have only ever equipped one once, back circa March of last year.

 

So, rather than be dismayed that there are better pilots, be proud that 3-star has put you against such skilled pilots - and learn from them.


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#8
GGGanjaMan

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A quick tip: if you're looking for a balanced game, don't ready up to start a lobby with an uneven # of players. The balancer only works on the initial ready up screen to sort the teams, and if you ready up to sort teams with odd #s, it is going to skew the balance to the side with less players to try and make up for numbers, which never really works well in the end with joiners/leavers.

 

It's been said countless times, but I still see idiots with 100s upon 100s of hours played still unable to grasp this basic fact. That's only if you're looking for balance - if you just want to kill fuzzy bunny and don't care whether you win, lose, or get stomped - then do whatever you want, however don't start complaining after the ready up lobby if things are uneven if you're one of those that ready up without learning how to count.


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#9
llYuraXLozhll

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Alright. I have read this everything... I still don't understand. 

 

Why are 30 levels being placed with newbies? 

 

I don't care about their MMR. They have played over 300+ matches. Some players barely played more than 50+ matches. And some players play less than 20 matches. And you make 300+ matches, who know the maps, weapons, even with their low MMR, they know basics and where to hide at least. And what about new players?

 

That's just not fair and I am sitting at 25% win rate after 12 played games overall? Really? This is how you treat new players? 

-------------------------------------

 

As for server balancer. 

 

Why the hell I just got matched 3 times in a row vs SAME enemies? I mean the match is over, the server changes map. Isn't it supposed to mix players? Cause it seems it doesn't mix players at all. 

 

-------------------------------------

 

You know, I want wins too, not losses because of those unfair match-ups...


Edited by llYuraXLozhll, 06 June 2015 - 01:23 AM.

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#10
llYuraXLozhll

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nevermind. Just forget everything what I said, because noone cares anyway. 


Edited by llYuraXLozhll, 06 June 2015 - 02:02 AM.


#11
FuzzyCupcake

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Alright. 

 

I am a new player here. Downloaded the game yesterday. Jumped into servers with 3 stars. Guess what I got? 

 

2 matches in a row my team was full of 1-15 levels, and enemy team had 2-3 30 levels, and half of their team being 20-25 levels. 

 

Why is that server called "3 stars"? I don't get it. 

 

And why are 30 levels allowed into those servers? They have upgraded weapons, mechs, they at least played more than 500 matches, and you place players below 100 matches vs them? 

 

I can understand the "not all 30 levels play good" excuse, but really. They have everything upgraded, the server is 3 stars and you intentionally place new players vs so called veterans. 

yeah i had this happen when i select server manually (wanted a server with almost full players that had 3 stars) but if i didnt select it manually the matches seemed allot better but smaller



#12
Nightfirebolt

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Why are 30 levels being placed with newbies? 

 

The matchmaker doesn't work. It used to be a bit more discriminate about who it would let into matches - and how it balanced teams - but it doesn't do any of that anymore, period.

 

I really hope Josh fixes it, or provides some dedicated servers for newbies, because what we have now - an "anything goes" approach to matchmaking - isn't good for anyone.

 

Evidenced by the fact that we have lost yet another new player because fuzzy bunnies are fuzzy bunnied up in this fuzzy bunny.


Edited by Nightfirebolt, 06 June 2015 - 02:49 AM.


#13
Nightfirebolt

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A quick tip: if you're looking for a balanced game, don't ready up to start a lobby with an uneven # of players. The balancer only works on the initial ready up screen to sort the teams, and if you ready up to sort teams with odd #s, it is going to skew the balance to the side with less players to try and make up for numbers, which never really works well in the end with joiners/leavers.

 

It's been said countless times, but I still see idiots with 100s upon 100s of hours played still unable to grasp this basic fact. That's only if you're looking for balance - if you just want to kill fuzzy bunny and don't care whether you win, lose, or get stomped - then do whatever you want, however don't start complaining after the ready up lobby if things are uneven if you're one of those that ready up without learning how to count.

 

Nope. Even if the number of players are balanced on both sides, the matchmaker will sometimes decide to stack one side for no discernible reason. See this thread.


Edited by Nightfirebolt, 06 June 2015 - 02:49 AM.


#14
SS396

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nevermind. Just forget everything what I said, because noone cares anyway.

People do care.

Yes, nobody likes to lose, but you cannot win every game.

I suggest playing co op tdm (solo), and co op destruction (not solo). Focus on learning the game, and experience the game where losing and winning don't matter very much. Once you get better things will change. You have to break past the wall and not focus on the little things like winning and losing.

If you are able to do that, I assure you in a few weeks things will be completely different.

Edited by SS396, 06 June 2015 - 04:44 PM.

[DELETED]

 

fuzzy bunny you CZeroFive 


#15
Call_Me_Ishmael

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Alright. I have read this everything... I still don't understand. 

 

Why are 30 levels being placed with newbies? 

 

I don't care about their MMR. They have played over 300+ matches. Some players barely played more than 50+ matches. And some players play less than 20 matches. And you make 300+ matches, who know the maps, weapons, even with their low MMR, they know basics and where to hide at least. And what about new players?

 

That's just not fair and I am sitting at 25% win rate after 12 played games overall? Really? This is how you treat new players? 

-------------------------------------

 

As for server balancer. 

 

Why the hell I just got matched 3 times in a row vs SAME enemies? I mean the match is over, the server changes map. Isn't it supposed to mix players? Cause it seems it doesn't mix players at all. 

 

-------------------------------------

 

You know, I want wins too, not losses because of those unfair match-ups...

 

 

You may wish the matchmaker didn't use MMR (Matchmaker Rating), but that is the ONLY thing it uses.

 

It puts you against the same players again because there are so few servers with people in them to choose from.

 

If we did have 'new player only' servers, I think you'd be in for a huge 'metagame shock' after graduating from the new-player servers.

 

This is a hard game, and the hardcore playerbase makes for an unforgiving learning curve, which is what I think your true complaint is.


Did I say Call Me Ishmael?

 

You should call me Luna.


#16
DarkSpock

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Sorry, but until the new devs learn how to code the game, you only have three options:

1) git gud

2) pay for the private server to arrange your own matches with friends

3) come back in another 6 months



#17
Dawn_of_Ash

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nevermind. Just forget everything what I said, because noone cares anyway. 

 

I can assure you that people do care - any game that puts veterans in the same lobby as new players is, to be blunt, an unbalanced game. As for the leveling system on this game - it really isn't that hard to get to level 30 so, unfortunately, the leveling system on this game is also not too accurate. The only thing players can actually rely on is the game's matchmaking rank (MMR) which can be good or bad at times - like in your post, it has been bad for you. If you want to find your MMR, add Scrimbot as your friend in-game (it's a bot) and type in "!mmr" or just "mmr". It should give you the number.

 

As far as this is concerned though, 3 stars = good server, so you should enter those servers whenever possible. The problems though that is causing this unbalance is because people smurf because they are "too gud" and the best thing that the community can do is to tell them - which they mostly ignore. This causes matches to be unbalanced at low-mmr games and for people to get annoyed and quit.

 

Yes, this is a serious problem and can only be solved by people not smurfing. Or if they do, they better handicap themselves. 


Edited by Dawn_of_Ash, 06 June 2015 - 05:30 PM.


#18
FURRYHUSKY1000

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Alright. 

 

I am a new player here. Downloaded the game yesterday. Jumped into servers with 3 stars. Guess what I got? 

 

2 matches in a row my team was full of 1-15 levels, and enemy team had 2-3 30 levels, and half of their team being 20-25 levels. 

 

Why is that server called "3 stars"? I don't get it. 

 

And why are 30 levels allowed into those servers? They have upgraded weapons, mechs, they at least played more than 500 matches, and you place players below 100 matches vs them? 

 

I can understand the "not all 30 levels play good" excuse, but really. They have everything upgraded, the server is 3 stars and you intentionally place new players vs so called veterans. 

 

I somehow agree to this that the matches seems to be unfair at times.

 

Joined a TDM match, sees the score 0-35....

 

Joined a Siege match, sees 0-3000....

 

It's understandable, judging that there's not that much players for this "Match Maker"/"Auto Balancer" to work that well. (or it's intended to be THAT buggy)

 

And yes, it can be quite annoying. Despite earning low HC as well.


Edited by FURRYHUSKY1000, 06 June 2015 - 05:33 PM.

~FURRYHUSKY1000


#19
Grizzled

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Most of the above but also and explicitly, the balance system does not balance on the same curve as skill actually works in the game. I believe, (not sure) that the MMR system balances just MMR score.

 

So as an example, if my MMR is 2000, and somehow, I end up in a server with a couple of people at 1650. Even if I don't want to "ready up" both of them can forcing me to play. So team 1 has 3300 MMR and team 2 (me) has 2000. Assuming they aren't smurfs, they actually don't have much of a chance I can usually take a couple 1650s if that is their true skill. And just like the above. I can neither 1 to 1 or 2 on 1 most players at or above 2250. Sometimes I get lucky, or have just the right position and weapons to kill them, but mostly it is not going to happen. 



#20
StubbornPuppet

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Most of the above but also and explicitly, the balance system does not balance on the same curve as skill actually works in the game. I believe, (not sure) that the MMR system balances just MMR score.

 

So as an example, if my MMR is 2000, and somehow, I end up in a server with a couple of people at 1650. Even if I don't want to "ready up" both of them can forcing me to play. So team 1 has 3300 MMR and team 2 (me) has 2000. Assuming they aren't smurfs, they actually don't have much of a chance I can usually take a couple 1650s if that is their true skill. And just like the above. I can neither 1 to 1 or 2 on 1 most players at or above 2250. Sometimes I get lucky, or have just the right position and weapons to kill them, but mostly it is not going to happen. 

No, it does not makes teams based on who is "Ready" and who isn't.  If that's what you suspect is happening.

 

The one thing that so very often gets overlooked in why 2-3 players always end up stacked on the other team against you is the dumb "party" system.  I am not opposed to having a party feature in a game, what I think Adhesive did wrong is to make it so that parties are always on the same team.  Parties should be for following friends from match to match, but it should split them up on to teams using full recognition of the MMR balance.


To be serious for a moment this is just a joke

 


#21
SS396

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So as an example, if my MMR is 2000, and somehow, I end up in a server with a couple of people at 1650. Even if I don't want to "ready up" both of them can forcing me to play. So team 1 has 3300 MMR and team 2 (me) has 2000.

 

I just want to point out that the situation you described does not happen on normal TDM, MA, or Siege servers.  Why you may ask?  Because theres a minimum number of players required to start a match.  It happens to be 4.  Now it is possible that once the match starts, one player leaves, and causes it to be a 2 on 1, but the game should never start with only 3 players in a lobby even if all 3 players select ready. (the screen will say insufficient number of players)

 

Now, on a private server, that minimum player variable should be adjustable down to 2 or maybe even 1 or zero and I doubt many people bother to change it.  Its possible though, which is why I'm mentioning it, but since its only been a relatively short time since the private servers have been available (by Reloaded) I'm pretty sure you weren't describing a situation that you've run into just recently, and were explaining something you've seen over the years.


[DELETED]

 

fuzzy bunny you CZeroFive 





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