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The Grind.

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#41
(Unknown)157a3decb342f5

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What's stopping you? Ten dollars is a really generous admission price for a game of this quality. And it will get you a new mech and more fun.

What's stopping me? The fact that I'm already on the ride. I'm no Good Samaritan, and most players aren't either. I'll pay when it gets me something I want.

Same reason I go to amusement parks over carnivals, I'll pay the price of admission, but I don't want to be charged per ride.

Maybe that's harsh but I'm already in the position where I'll likely keep playing. I'm primarily making the argument for players that haven't received my special treatment.

Edited by TestHAWKEN001, 25 May 2015 - 01:52 AM.


#42
Nightfirebolt

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Same reason I go to amusement parks over carnivals, I'll pay the price of admission, but I don't want to be charged per ride.

 

Except that:

 

A) you didn't pay admission in the first place,

 

and

 

B) you're not paying per ride. A more accurate metaphor would be that you're paying a one-time fee to be able to ride that same ride in that park forever (or presumably until the park goes out of business).

 

It's still not a bad deal. Let's keep it in perspective.


Edited by Nightfirebolt, 25 May 2015 - 01:57 AM.

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#43
hoghead

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duh ......purty shiny metal.....  I gots  the veriaty I justs wants too's gits gud. :teehee:



#44
EM1O

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unhappy now? wait until the only thrill left is starting another account and grinding it up, Noob Stomping, or else complaining about not getting a decent server.

Most of the people that stayed for that long are permanently gone.

Nearly all (with notable exceptions) of the pre-Ascension crowd are gone, as well. Many of them I genuinely miss seeing here. This game gives the feeling that it really doesn't want players to stay around. I can't explain it, but it has always felt like it was built to repulse the casual player, and infuriate the comp player.

:P


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#45
MomOw

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Having a fully loaded assault as starter Mech is good, but it's true that "discounts" or lower grinds for the first hours could really help.

After playing 2 or 3 hours every player should have at least one additionnal Mech. This with the more regular double HC/XP week-end would lead to a better early gaming experience.


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#46
XPloyt

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unhappy now? wait until the only thrill left is starting another account and grinding it up, Noob Stomping, or else complaining about not getting a decent server.

Most of the people that stayed for that long are permanently gone.

Nearly all (with notable exceptions) of the pre-Ascension crowd are gone, as well. Many of them I genuinely miss seeing here. This game gives the feeling that it really doesn't want players to stay around. I can't explain it, but it has always felt like it was built to repulse the casual player, and infuriate the comp player.

:P

 

Is the pre-ascension crowd you speak of the same as the pre-Tech crowd? I was here before ascension came out- May 2013 to be exact - and I started to become familiar with names within a few days of playing!


Edited by XPloyt, 25 May 2015 - 02:07 AM.


#47
EM1O

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Is the pre-ascension crowd you speak of the same as the pre-Tech crowd? I was here before ascension came out- May 2013 to be exact - and I started to become familiar with names within a few days of playing!

my perspective is anything after Closed Beta. oh, man. i remember the fury of the Tech update. that in itself probably cost Hawken a sizable chunk of its player population.

 

edit: pause for thot...and the 'Tech rage' is still continuing. possibly right in there with the Ascension update for being a really bad move. some explanation: the game i signed up for in 2012 that got the huge rave reviews and enthusiasm from the gaming community is NOT the game i logged into this morning.


Edited by em1o, 25 May 2015 - 02:23 AM.

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#48
XPloyt

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my perspective is anything after Closed Beta. oh, man. i remember the fury of the Tech update. that in itself probably cost Hawken a sizable chunk of its player population.

 

 Yeah, that's what I'm sayin'. In the past I have read here and there how strongly folks felt about it. I was even against the tech for a time...but somehow I've become acclimated to it, I guess. Maybe it was when the TTK decreased it become less of a pester...



#49
Dawn_of_Ash

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...and the amount of real dollars you pay for things in this game is also not as bad as some other games out there (try paying for stuff in Warframe; you'll go fuzzy-bunnying bankrupt).

 

 

Don't want to go too much of a tangent here, but Warframe gives you a chance to get 20-75% off what you pay from it's daily bonus rewards. I somehow managed to get a 50% off bonus from a day one daily reward, although I never pay on any free-to-play game. I am far more tempted to buy something on Warframe than Hawken right now due to every customisation tool on Hawken "not being shiny". Yes, it does have a style, but it's just not good-looking for the majority of people. League of Legends have generated a lot of money because of their good-looking-skins for their characters which had originally inspired my idea here: https://community.pl...one/#entry26699. I would still like to see this implemented into the game, as I definitely feel that it can help.

 

Seriously, imagine this instead of your TOW: 

Spoiler

 

Sorry about the tangent, but I felt that it answered why LoL has generated so much money (other than it's gameplay) and why Warframe also is so expensive by using clever marketing techniques...while also promoting an almost dead topic which I feel would help this game a lot.


Edited by Dawn_of_Ash, 25 May 2015 - 02:26 AM.


#50
Nightfirebolt

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Don't want to go too much of a tangent here, but Warframe gives you a chance to get 20-75% off what you pay from it's daily bonus rewards. I somehow managed to get a 50% off bonus from a day one daily reward, although I never pay on any free-to-play game. I am far more tempted to buy something on Warframe than Hawken right now due to every customisation tool on Hawken "not being shiny". Yes, it does have a style, but it's just not good-looking for the majority of people.

 

I absolutely agree that Hawken needs more customization options. And yes, Warframe has way more support and development than Hawken currently does.

 

...That really doesn't have anything to do with my argument, though.  :tongue:

 

Even if Warframe is potentially cheaper with the discounts you mentioned, the base platinum value is still ridulously high. Like... $20 USD for a single frame (compared to $10 for a mech in Hawken).

 

Let's also keep in mind that things occasionally went on sale back when Hawken was receiving regular development, making things even more affordable (that's definitely something we need to bring back, too).


Edited by Nightfirebolt, 25 May 2015 - 03:00 AM.


#51
HHJFTRU

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I personally am ok with the grind.

I used to be thinking about it being too harsh, then I purchased a HC boost.

Now with the double HC weekend + boost I'm getting 600 HCs per TDM.

After less than 2 months since I started with Hawken I have 10 mechs. Well, few of them are fully loaded.

 

Sorry if it appears as a double post, the first one got lost somewhere.


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THANKS FOR THIS AWESOME GAME!

 


#52
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unhappy now? wait until the only thrill left is starting another account and grinding it up, Noob Stomping, or else complaining about not getting a decent server.
Most of the people that stayed for that long are permanently gone.
Nearly all (with notable exceptions) of the pre-Ascension crowd are gone, as well. Many of them I genuinely miss seeing here. This game gives the feeling that it really doesn't want players to stay around. I can't explain it, but it has always felt like it was built to repulse the casual player, and infuriate the comp player.
:P


No offense, but oh well. This is the game now, and this is what's chasing players away. People are joining the game in i S current state, and they're going to stick around or leave based on its current state. Not some bygone nonexistent build.

Except that:
 
A) you didn't pay admission in the first place,
 
and
 
B) you're not paying per ride. A more accurate metaphor would be that you're paying a one-time fee to be able to ride that same ride in that park forever (or presumably until the park goes out of business).
 
It's still not a bad deal. Let's keep it in perspective.

This is sort of another post that I'm going to have to reply with "so?"

The metaphor isn't perfect, it only captures the gist of the legitimate points I made in the same post which were summarily ignored.

Having a fully loaded assault as starter Mech is good, but it's true that "discounts" or lower grinds for the first hours could really help.
After playing 2 or 3 hours every player should have at least one additionnal Mech. This with the more regular double HC/XP week-end would lead to a better early gaming experience.


I can't speak to how the grind feels later. If after fourteen hours in game, a player feels they aren't rewarded by their efforts (inb4 herp derp games don't have to reward you - please understand that I don't give a fuzzy bunny. You're competing for my (read: new players') time and money. If you don't want to get with the times you're going to get left behind.) then who's to say they're going to stick around any longer?

Now if every two or three hours I was unlocking a mech, but only as a new player (need a more objective standard) then yeah, that might help, but overall that feels gimmicky. It doesn't change the fact that on non double xp weekends and outside of your once a day bonus, TDM, what I'm assuming is the most played and simplest to pick up in a somewhat complicated game, is only netting you a max of 200 hc every ten or fifteen minutes, and that's if you do well. Don't tell me "switch teams when possible" don't tell me "play a different game mode." That's silly. Forcing a new player to jump through hoops just to obtain a couple viable builds is dumb.

I don't want gimmicks. New players don't want gimmicks. They want to feel engaged. Gameplay is fine. It's great. I'm sure that for the people here, it keeps you coming back. But who cares? Even if every one of you put in 100 dollars, how long would the game last without more income?

Engagement in the game, even though most players aren't aware of the meaning, often means engagement in the meta. Do you understand that? It means being able to experiment with different tools, and earn those tools consistently.

A new player on their first game might face 10 assaults and 1 scout and be like "hey I want that." So best case scenario, new player does ok, gets a bunch of achievements, wins, even gets a team balancer bonus. End result: 1000 hc. New player thinks "hey that's 12 games and I can get that mech." So they play again, but don't do so hot, but are still earning some new player hc achievements. End result: 250 hc. "Hey wtf? Alright let me play another." Achievements come slower. End result: 150 hc. The player plays a full 12 games, an unlikely session in my opinion, but they do, spending two full hours in game, many more minutes in the server browser, never once buying anything, and realizes at the end of it that he's earned less than 6000 hc. Less than half his way there. So he flips through the garage, but the brawler and the reaper don't appeal to him, so he sees what else he can buy. Not knowing anything he buys a detonator and some random internal in hopes that they'll make him do better and get hc at a faster rate.

But we know that doesn't happen. The player plays one more game, hc trickles in around 100 per game considering he's a new player losing a fair share of matches, and he turns it off. "Maybe I'll do better tomorrow." Except, he looks through his plethora of steam games, and picks something else, every single time, never returning to Hawken, forgetting that it was fun enough for him to put in over two hours in one day, because his last impression of the game was "I wasted all that time."

That is frustrating. That is a new players experience, and a real one too. That is what the grind is telling new people. "I'm wasting my time."

Well. Good luck with that.

#53
System64

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Not when the devs been dead for more than a year, new devs JUST took over the project and starting to get things rolling, be patient.

^This.

There's a good chance that Reloaded will fix up all the sh*t Adhesive did with the financial model, at some point.


Edited by System64, 25 May 2015 - 07:56 AM.

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#54
Amidatelion

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But we know that doesn't happen. The player plays one more game, hc trickles in around 100 per game considering he's a new player losing a fair share of matches, and he turns it off. "Maybe I'll do better tomorrow." Except, he looks through his plethora of steam games, and picks something else, every single time, never returning to Hawken, forgetting that it was fun enough for him to put in over two hours in one day, because his last impression of the game was "I wasted all that time."

 

This is the biggest issue, the one a lot of vets have trouble understanding. The grind we can argue about all goddamn day. But we know it's there. It's difficulty and frustration for us is irrelevant because we have "arrived." We like the game and will continue playing it.

 

The grind, which we all know exists, is massively compounded by the fact that new players win only 1 in 4 games. That is fuzzing abysmal. An F2P needs to either be balanced as close to 50/50 win rate as possible or have some manner of option to mitigate that in order to hook a player. A 25/75 win rate is absofuzzinglutely unacceptable for player retention and right now the HC grind is such that players do not feel they have accomplished anything by the time that their win/loss ratio becomes depressingly clear to them. The 500 MC you get is kinda nice, but unless you have a mech of your own by then it ain't that nice. The price of a mech I think is pretty ok, personally, it's the crushing sense that it is incomplete without parts that cost more than the goddamn mech.

 

Yes I know you can compete perfectly well in a bare-bones CRT/Assault. If you are accomplished at the game and understand the mechanics. The new player doesn't even know how to L-dodge, let alone how to make use of the most balanced mech in the game so the argument that you can do well without internals is pointless. The average new player is not and will not be coming to the forums to learn. They need the incentive to give a fuzzy bunny.

 

Either the HC gain rate needs to go the fuzzy bunny up or the price for items, weapons and internals needs to come the fuzzy bunny down. 

 

Some other reason to stay would be nice too. Like fuzzing Steam Achievements.


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#55
reVelske

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new players win only 1 in 4 games.

 

A 25/75 win rate is absofuzzinglutely unacceptable

 

Just where are you pulling those amazing stats out from?



#56
Amidatelion

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Just where are you pulling those amazing stats out from?

 

https://community.pl...ailure/?p=35230



#57
Xer06siX

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...


Edited by Xer06siX, 26 May 2015 - 10:32 PM.

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                                                                                                        Just here.                            

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#58
(Unknown)157a3decb342f5

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I would pay 50-60$ for this game right off the bat. Enjoy the game. I started off with Fred, I love fred. I actually went from the B class (fred CRT) to C class brawler. Then up to A class scout. I remember when I first got the scout AND the reaper. I went through the grind. I got circa 800 hours on one character alone in another game for example. I don't see it as a grind if I am getting something out of it <------- (Enjoyment)...I enjoy the game and have spent money on MC so that I could purchase cosmetics and support the developers for making such a fun game to play online with friends. I believe in it very much so, that as a mapper, I would be willing to create content for this game for free. I never expect to walk into a Ferrari dealership and drive away with the top model. 

Congrats.



#59
Nept

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Just get a loan from hestoned.



#60
M4st0d0n

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Ah the grind. What's makes life worth living?

 


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#61
LoC_TR

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Grind is terrible. I would hate to be a new player right now, I know a lot of us vets benefited from earlier betas before steam when HC rewards were higher, items and internals were much cheaper. We also got refunded for a lot of stuff we bought and that was subsequently taken out of the game, I know of a few players with stockpiles of HC and nothing to buy it with. It was a much smoother ride back in the day, had that new mech smell too. 


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#62
Nightfirebolt

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TestHAWKEN001, on 25 May 2015 - 09:23 AM, said:

 

This is sort of another post that I'm going to have to reply with "so?"

The metaphor isn't perfect, it only captures the gist of the legitimate points I made in the same post which were summarily ignored.

 

No, I read your entire post. You want to be rewarded more for your time, which I understand. And while I agree that the grind could use some tweaking, keep in mind that this game really only makes money in two ways: Unlocks and cosmetics. If unlocks could be easily and consistently be acquired with little effort (and no money invested), the only thing left for Reloaded to make money off of is the cosmetics, which may not be enough. After all, a lot of people don't give a crap about how their mech looks, they want all the things instead.

 

I agree that some of the unlocks aren't worth what you pay in real dollars, and that is a problem. But this is their business model and it still beats a subscription or a hefty entry fee (or both, as some games tend to do).

 

But we know that doesn't happen. The player plays one more game, hc trickles in around 100 per game considering he's a new player losing a fair share of matches, and he turns it off. "Maybe I'll do better tomorrow." Except, he looks through his plethora of steam games, and picks something else, every single time, never returning to Hawken, forgetting that it was fun enough for him to put in over two hours in one day, because his last impression of the game was "I wasted all that time."

 

But this isn't you. You haven't chosen to leave Hawken, because you know that Hawken is a great game. You're not "wasting time" if you're having fun.


Edited by Nightfirebolt, 25 May 2015 - 01:31 PM.


#63
Amidatelion

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But this isn't you. You haven't chosen to leave Hawken, because you know that Hawken is a great game. You're not "wasting time" if you're having fun.

 

But he's the exception. Josh hasn't released the turn-over numbers, but Test's point is clear - it feels like a waste of time. It's why I dropped HotS and half a dozen other F2P games. A lot of people don't have that fun when they are losing constantly and not getting anything for their time - it's a waste.


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#64
PepeKenobi

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... I have a bad feeling about what you stated in page 1 on the mechs and equipment you started playing with in HAWKEN ...



#65
Hijinks_The_Turtle

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But he's the exception. Josh hasn't released the turn-over numbers, but Test's point is clear - it feels like a waste of time. It's why I dropped HotS and half a dozen other F2P games. A lot of people don't have that fun when they are losing constantly and not getting anything for their time - it's a waste.

 

I agree with this.  It's a problem that's been plaguing a lot of newer/not very skilled players.  I've asked a few people on why they left, this was one of the larger problems they talked about.



#66
(Unknown)157a3decb342f5

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No, I read your entire post. You want to be rewarded more for your time, which I understand. And while I agree that the grind could use some tweaking, keep in mind that this game really only makes money in two ways: Unlocks and cosmetics. If unlocks could be easily and consistently be acquired with little effort (and no money invested), the only thing left for Reloaded to make money off of is the cosmetics, which may not be enough. After all, a lot of people don't give a crap about how their mech looks, they want all the things instead.

Actually the point was that I have zero incentive to spend money because I do not feel invested in the game despite the time I've put into it.

 

 


But this isn't you. You haven't chosen to leave Hawken, because you know that Hawken is a great game. You're not "wasting time" if you're having fun.

 

Thread's about new players, not me. I actually don't know that Hawken is a great game. I'm here because I was heckled the fuzzy bunny out of to play it, was given a leveled account, and have just been sort of stomping around since.

 

I might know moreabout the game, might call it a "great" game if I was able to play more mechs, items, internals and all of that. My mouth. Stay out of it.

 

What's up with this grey highlighting thing?


Edited by TestHAWKEN001, 25 May 2015 - 01:58 PM.


#67
(Unknown)157a3decb342f5

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... I have a bad feeling about what you stated in page 1 on the mechs and equipment you started playing with in HAWKEN ...

I think at nearing 2300 MMR, I'll live.



#68
Nightfirebolt

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But he's the exception. Josh hasn't released the turn-over numbers, but Test's point is clear - it feels like a waste of time. It's why I dropped HotS and half a dozen other F2P games. A lot of people don't have that fun when they are losing constantly and not getting anything for their time - it's a waste.

 

Crappy match balance and a long grind are two separate problems.

 

I completely agree that new players need to be able to win more matches. In fact, I realized this first-hand when I tried to get a friend of mine into Hawken. She got frustrated after being trashed too many times by veteran players and eventually decided not to come back.

 

She never expressed any problems with progression, though. So I wonder if maybe the grind wouldn't feel as punishing if the match balance problem was fixed? It would go a long way to retaining new players, at any rate. The good news is that Josh wants to solve this problem, and I don't doubt that he will make good on his word.

 

Actually the point was that I have zero incentive to spend money because I do not feel invested in the game despite the time I've put into it.

 

I think that's OK. After all, you've only been playing a few days. It's your dollar and you get to choose when and how to spend it, you have every right to withhold that if you choose.

 

As for the devs doing their part to improve player incentive, the good news is, better content is on it's way now that development has resumed. Hopefully you'll stick around and see what Hawken has to offer going forward.


Edited by Nightfirebolt, 25 May 2015 - 02:01 PM.


#69
(Unknown)157a3decb342f5

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Crappy match balance and a long grind are two separate problems.

 

I completely agree that new players need to be able to win more matches. In fact, I realized this first-hand when I tried to get a friend of mine into Hawken. She got frustrated after being trashed too many times by veteran players and eventually decided not to come back.

 

She never expressed any problems with progression, though. So I wonder if maybe the grind wouldn't feel as punishing if the match balance problem was fixed? It would go a long way to retaining new players, at any rate. The good news is that Josh wants to solve this problem, and I don't doubt that he will make good on his word.

They're part of the larger problem that is unsatisfactory experience for new players.



#70
kasei

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I forget how long it takes to level up. How does awarding players with 8K HC at pilot levels 5, 15, and 30 sound?

Edited by kasei, 25 May 2015 - 02:21 PM.


#71
(Unknown)157a3decb342f5

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I forget how long it takes to level up. How does awarding players with 8K HC at pilot levels 5, 15, and 30 sound?

Any reason for this not to be a flat 10k?



#72
kasei

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Any reason for this not to be a flat 10k?


I had it at 10k at first, then edited it to 8k. My reasoning was that there are currently six mechs available under 8k, with two of those mechs under 4k. When a new player reaches level 5, they could buy one new 8k mech, or both the Brawler and Reaper. The 12k mechs look pretty cool, if a new player really wants that badass ninja Predator, then I don't think it's a bad idea to let them strive for it.

Although those mechs don't come with any items or internals, so 10k doesn't really bother me any.

#73
(Unknown)157a3decb342f5

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I had it at 10k at first, then edited it to 8k. My reasoning was that there are currently six mechs available under 8k, with two of those mechs under 4k. When a new player reaches level 5, they could buy one new 8k mech, or both the Brawler and Reaper. The 12k mechs look pretty cool, if a new player really wants that badass ninja Predator, then I don't think it's a bad idea to let them strive for it.

Although those mechs don't come with any items or internals, so 10k doesn't really bother me any.

I think this is a step in the right direction, certainly, but I think that 24k in level bonuses doesn't get you very far. Stuff is just too expensive.

 

Also, jesus christ, I got accused of hacking on my old account, but at 2300 all I'm hearing is whining. What's the deal with that? People whine about ping, people whine about scanners (the only item I have because fuzzy bunny buying items at this point - even if I had those 24k in level bonuses, I'd be spending it on mechs, not items to replace the scout's scanner), people whine about orbs. I just did not have to go through that on my old account. There are some hit registration issues that I've been picking up on, but it's like people at this level constantly feel entitled to win if their opponent does one thing they don't like.

 

That's a bit off topic, but wtf?



#74
Call_Me_Ishmael

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Well, because you're choosing a Scout, which is clearly OP.  Scanner and all.

 

Actually, Scanner is the sign of a trashy opportunistic player.  I'm not impressed with scanner users.  I don't think it needs to come out of the game, tho.

 

I get POed at hit registration misses and dodges that don't dodge.  Especially when my opponent hits his shots and dodges away from mine.


Did I say Call Me Ishmael?

 

You should call me Luna.


#75
(Unknown)157a3decb342f5

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Well, because you're choosing a Scout, which is clearly OP.  Scanner and all.

 

Actually, Scanner is the sign of a trashy opportunistic player.  I'm not impressed with scanner users.  I don't think it needs to come out of the game, tho.

I think when the average MMR of a server reads 2400, they should fuzzy bunnyng deal with it. That being said: nothing else to choose from!



#76
thirtysix

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36 mechs in my garage, did the grind for every single one. I'm a better player for it.

Grinding is good for your mech pilot soul.


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#77
kasei

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36 mechs in my garage, did the grind for every single one. I'm a better player for it.
Grinding is good for your mech pilot soul.


BZoIu9i.gif

Edit:

Seriously though, what you're really saying is that you became a better player by playing more. Grind has nothing to do with that.

Edited by kasei, 25 May 2015 - 05:50 PM.


#78
M4st0d0n

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48 hours to unlock all is certainly not enough. Some people are actually playing videogames for the grind. But cred income should be tweaked a bit for sure. And internals are buyable direct upgrade, they should be balanced sidegrades for alternative gameplay, not the mandatory crap we got. If you're not the kind of guy who want to invest in cosmetic, that's fine. Maybe the reason is that you started whith a smurf account and didnt even choose a name for it. Cosmetics would appeal to main accounts with identities that want to show off.



#79
StubbornPuppet

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I think the guy you got the account from must have done something terribly wrong.   My grind was nothing like that at all.

 

What I will say is that level 30 means N.O.T.H.I.N.G. and should be set differently.  Either it should take a whole freaking lot longer to reach 30 or the level cap should be increased to more around 100.  Seriously.  I reached level 30 years ago.

 

By the time I hit 30, I already had like 7 mechs I believe.  And I wasn't finding the grind to be much at all.  I say that because I was finally feeling proficient and skilled with a mech just as I maxed it's level out.  That meant, "Hey, I think I've finally got the hang of this mech... but if I'm bored I can now go buy a new one and start learning that."

 

So, ignore level 30.  Ignore how many items and internals you have (you'll never buy them all for every mech, never).  The game is about practice, practice, practice and you'll find it worth the effort.

 

Also:  There are no OP mech or weapons to buy.  It's all pretty well balanced and about learning to play to your own strengths.


Edited by StubbornPuppet, 26 May 2015 - 07:35 AM.

To be serious for a moment this is just a joke

 


#80
Hek_naw

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I, and possibly others who are new to Hawken and started playing over the last month or so, have had the kind of privilege of having BOOST WEEKENDS WOO! (And to that add the xp boost code.)

 

So when I play during the week I kind of notice the slow progress with buying and equipping mechs, compared to the last weekend, but then since these boosts are continuing I don't despair. And I think that's fine for a reason: The mid-week grind is great for learning to play with a new mech. You know you won't be getting a new mech soon so you spend time figuring out your current mech.

 

If you think you made a poor choice buying the wrong mech/weapon/internals... well there is always next weekend xD






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