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Should the Zerker be nerfed?

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#1
Pandabaron

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Okay, I'm going to throw this out there. I play the Beserker class a hell of a lot, and a few people have recently started shunning me, saying it's an easy mech to play, but it is by far my favourite class. So I ask, that as a high scorer on the European servers, is it down to my skill as a pilot that i'm doing well (i'm often round the 2300 mmr mark - but recently I've dipped to 2220 since travelling) or is it probably just that the zerker is overpowered. I just got a bit rattled by the guys i was playing against/alongside. Some feedback and thoughts would be helpful.  


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#2
ticklemyiguana

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So...

Yes.

 

But let's back up. If you're at 2300, you can't get there on mech choice alone. 2300 means you have a pretty solid understanding of likely all the mechs, positioning, timings, maps, and more. It's likely you're a highly competent player.

 

However, the berserker is unique in its aerial advantage. It has the fastest air speed, highest health for an A class, highest DPS for an A class (and one of the highest in the game), has a damage boosting ability to add to that, and has a weapon combo that is widely accepted as one of the best and most versatile in the game.

 

It is unique in that no other A class is nearly as versatile in terms of weapons. Throw in everything else, and it is most assuredly the most overpowered of A class mechs.

 

Even still, it doesn't detract from the fact that you're likely a very good player. It just means you should really, really, get into another mech.

 

From personal experience, the people that main berserkers or incinerators are pretty largely looked down upon.

 

It's not as blatantly OP as the incinerator, but its particular combination of traits gives it an unfair, and not fun to play against advantage in a lot of scenarios.


Edited by ticklemyiguana, 30 March 2015 - 04:18 PM.

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#3
Interrobang87

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Zerker is also my favorite mech. A lot of people complain about it because its ability is just straight extra damage so if you catch someone in the open you're going to win (unless you can't aim).

The other complaint, as I'm sure you're aware, is that you can flutter around someone like Muhammed Ali while raining death on them. What they choose not to remember is that the berserker was the weakest of the a class pre-AC because it has all sustain weapons aka weaker corner game. Its strong now because people can't corner game you as easily when you're flying over top of their precious cover.

Tldr the ability could be changed to something more interesting as it is overly strong and boring. It is admittedly strong because it is able to be played differently from what the current maps were designed for (more awesomely). Don't change zerker, change (more) maps.

Edited by Interrobang87, 30 March 2015 - 04:26 PM.

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#4
ticklemyiguana

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The other complaint, as I'm sure you're aware, is that you can flutter around someone like Muhammed Ali while raining death on them. What they choose not to remember is that the berserker was the weakest of the a class pre-AC because it has all sustain weapons aka weaker corner game. Its strong now because people can't corner game you as easily when you're flying over top of their precious cover.

I don't say this often, and I don't intend to be rude, but:

 

Wrong.

 

The berserker isn't OP because of its aerial maneuvering. Aerial maneuverability<ground maneuverability in all cases. It's annoying because of it, but not OP. To whatever degree it's OP to, which I'd argue is limited, it's because of the versatility and DPS of its weapons bundled into the highest health A class plus its damage boosting ability.

 

Its maneuverability in the air increases its ability to pub stomp lower level players, but perhaps unarguably the best zerker pilot in Hawken, Dave, does not use AC on the berserker, and is more effective because of it.


Edited by ticklemyiguana, 30 March 2015 - 04:47 PM.

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#5
Interrobang87

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@tickle I'm really not picking a fight here but in what you quoted I'm saying that's one BIG complaint players have about the zerker. Saying the entire statement is wrong is ludicrous because a lot of players do whine about it- doesn't matter if most of them are lower mmr it still happens frequently.

Now get over here and lets hug it out

#6
ticklemyiguana

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@tickle I'm really not picking a fight here but in what you quoted I'm saying that's one BIG complaint players have about the zerker. Saying the entire statement is wrong is ludicrous because a lot of players do whine about it- doesn't matter if most of them are lower mmr it still happens frequently.

Now get over here and lets hug it out

Sorry bang, I'm not attempting to rustle any jimmies. The only complaint I hear about the aerial section of the mech is that it's annoying. When referencing it in terms of OP, I've never heard the aerial component harped upon.


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#7
Pandabaron

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I'm in the camp that not having an AC on a zerker is not really a good idea, however Dave's good enough to have a limit on the zerker's potentially endless aerial options anyway. I just feel like the scout Orb lords, the tech is functional, the Inf is for assassination, and the reaper kills from afar. So the zerker is supposed to be the fast, front line, DPS monster that everyone knows and fears. and 25 extra health feels like a drop in the ocean.. I mean that's like 8% more health than our assassin. meh..

 

The game isn't fun Orb lording in a scout. and the Inf simply doesn't have the DPS to fight on the front lines (though i've also fought with the Inf for many hours). So i'm subjected to piloting an assault? IMO probably one of the least interesting classes, that seems to run out of options at close range. because it has the weapon setting i like? Or a brawler, and just hunker down and orb lord in a bottleneck. The zerker feels like it has such variety. Though perhaps that's the advantage it's had all along.. I find it strange to play a game at this level and be blamed by my teamates for OP 'functionality'. 

 

But yeah, the power is awesome. perhaps that's the element that needs to be looked into.. I think i could make do without it. But then you have your SS's and your Gren's. This game! A great melding pot of different play styles.

To sum it all up then, Perhaps a different power and a decrease in health. I could live with that. If it indeed needs changing at all. 

'Muhammed Ali raining death'. Perhaps it truly is time to move on, old friend. 


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#8
LaurenEmily

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Okay, I'm going to throw this out there. I play the Beserker class a hell of a lot, and a few people have recently started shunning me.

Don't take Gadzi's nonsense seriously :)

I'm guessing that is where you are coming from with this.

I personally don't think berserker is overpowered, the ability kinda is. And it is boring as hell too, something the devs slapped on because they couldn't figure out anything better. Change that to something else and it's balanced enough imo.


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#9
bacon_avenger

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...

I personally don't think berserker is overpowered, the ability kinda is. And it is boring as hell too, something the devs slapped on because they couldn't figure out anything better. Change that to something else and it's balanced enough imo.

Actually, the 'zerker has had the same ability since the beginning.  In fact, the sharpy shared the same ability for a while, then ADH came up with the powershot thing and applied it to the sharpy.


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#10
Pandabaron

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Gadzi is Gadzi. I am a quieter critic of his mech choice, play style and general obnoxiousness..  I'd love a speed booster power-up. I think that would make me happier, even if it's just a slight speed difference, it would make the mech even more enjoyable.. hmm..


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#11
Coboxite

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I've always felt that Zerker is more annoying than overpowered, only really strong against players that don't know what they're doing. Once that advantage goes away, most Zerkers evaporate against some of the B class mechs and almost all the C class mechs.



#12
ticklemyiguana

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double post go away. 


Edited by ticklemyiguana, 30 March 2015 - 05:19 PM.

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#13
ticklemyiguana

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I'm in the camp that not having an AC on a zerker is not really a good idea, however Dave's good enough to have a limit on the zerker's potentially endless aerial options anyway. I just feel like the scout Orb lords, the tech is functional, the Inf is for assassination, and the reaper kills from afar. So the zerker is supposed to be the fast, front line, DPS monster that everyone knows and fears. and 25 extra health feels like a drop in the ocean.. I mean that's like 8% more health than our assassin. meh..

 

The game isn't fun Orb lording in a scout. and the Inf simply doesn't have the DPS to fight on the front lines (though i've also fought with the Inf for many hours). So i'm subjected to piloting an assault? IMO probably one of the least interesting classes, that seems to run out of options at close range. because it has the weapon setting i like? Or a brawler, and just hunker down and orb lord in a bottleneck. The zerker feels like it has such variety. Though perhaps that's the advantage it's had all along.. I find it strange to play a game at this level and be blamed by my teamates for OP 'functionality'. 

i'd just like to point out that orb lording in the zerker is just about the most effective thing you can do with it. The orb lord build is for all, not just scout.


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#14
Pandabaron

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you are of course right, I guess you can orb lord almost anything; But scouts are where I mostly see it. I like an Air compressor, the deflectors and the fuel converter for the zerker's internals. But going back to your previous point Iguana, you could be right, it may just be time for a change.  


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#15
LaurenEmily

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Go for pred, it has a wonderful world. There's no going back to other mechs once you get the hang of it :)

That loading sound and the 'snap' of the breacher, no kill is more satisfying.


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#16
Fstroke

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What's all this talk of berzerkers having a variety of playstyles? We are talking about the same berzerker right? Haha

#17
TheFrostnessMonster

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Yeah Zerker is only good against enemies with no coordination, cause you will get evaporated by those pesky B and C classes if they work together.  Doesn't mean that the Zerker isn't fun though, because I love my Zerker, with those pretty Alpha tags :biggrin:


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#18
KamikazeCommando

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All mechs are OP if you have an experienced pilot with more than half a brain using it. I do love my zerker and use it as a primary usually, but it is indeed easy to take down if the enemy team have any sense of coordination, ergo, gang up instead of scattering, or flank insead of standing still on a hight point waiting to be blown to bits while shooting at me from across the map.

 

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#19
Superkamikazee

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Nerf all pilots

No crew


#20
TheFrostnessMonster

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Nerf all pilots

:down:


Edited by TheFrostnessMonster, 30 March 2015 - 06:59 PM.

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#21
n3onfx

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Aw I know I like to poke you a bit for playing zerker, but you truly are a good player, zerker or no zerker. I do honestly think it's a tad too strong though, I'm not sure if it's the way it can move in the air (incredibly annoying when playing mechs like raider, pred or anything relying on EOC/HEAT) or the insane damage boost the ability gives, but it's by far the A class that you don't want getting the jump on you.

 

If you want  bit of variety try heat scout (poke them to death!), or pred (mines!) or raider (explosions!), the later two are pretty challenging and get so much fun when you start to get the hang of them.


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#22
VisionCloud

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I've always felt that Zerker is more annoying than overpowered, only really strong against players that don't know what they're doing. Once that advantage goes away, most Zerkers evaporate against some of the B class mechs and almost all the C class mechs.

I'd have to agree with this. I feel that I am fairly competent in my zerker, in many matches I dominate and come out on top, however when you get someone in a B or C class that knows what they're doing, my zerker is often immediately vaporized, I get one tow off and I'm dead over and over and over again. To fight a well played B or C I often have to move on up to a Vanguard or another mech.

 

Another thing that I think people forget is that sure air dodging a lot makes you hard to hit, but it also makes it hard to aim. Before the new devs fixed the account problems, i was locked out of my primary and forced to play a brand new account. When I finally got  my zerker back, I felt like I was God, I never missed a shot. Eventually, they fixed my account and I got my old zerker back, and I realized, I was only such a good shot, because I wasn't dodging in air like I do in my real zerker. It almost takes more skill to be good with that air dodge than it does to be good without it.

All that being said, I can't speak to whether or not the zerker is over-powered, as I have never taken the time to analyze all the stats that each mech has and how they compare. but I know against certain players, or agains certain mechs, or even on certain maps (I'm looking at you, eco) the zerker doesn't stand a chance. I personally think most mechs have their time and their place where they shine. Against certain opponents on certain maps in certain game modes each mech feels overpowered, and in other situations they feel under-powered.

I feel like the predator is a worthless piece of crap, too slow and to unwieldy to ever make use of, yet others dominate me in it, so really, to each their own.


Edited by VisionCloud, 30 March 2015 - 07:37 PM.


#23
Nept

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Sorry bang, I'm not attempting to rustle any jimmies. The only complaint I hear about the aerial section of the mech is that it's annoying. When referencing it in terms of OP, I've never heard the aerial component harped upon.

Then you haven't seen Deiderall's posts!

 

I'm (obviously) fine with its air movement.  Makes things interesting.  The damage ability could use a bit of a toning down, though.


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#24
ticklemyiguana

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Then you haven't seen Deiderall's posts!

 

I'm (obviously) fine with its air movement.  Makes things interesting.  The damage ability could use a bit of a toning down, though.

Ah, no, you're correct. I've seen Sir Tree's posts.


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#25
Amidatelion

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The 'zerker is currently OP because of three things: 

 

  1. Its aerial maneuverability.
  2. Its HP.
  3. Its ability.

You can't nerf its manoeuvrability, because that is arguably what makes the 'zerker the 'zerker. Yes, it is god-awfully annoying. No, it's not insurmountable. Learn to position and aim.

 

I'd argue that the ability isn't core to it either, as it shares a similarity with the Grenadier. Along with the maneuverability though, it becomes a serious problem. Perhaps a nerf here of about 2.5-5%.

 

But holy hell who thoughy giving this thing the most HP AND the highest aerial manoeuvrability in the game was a good idea? Jesus bloody fuzzity fuzzing Christ. Drop its HP to the 320 range and we'll talk.


Edited by Amidatelion, 30 March 2015 - 08:22 PM.

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#26
Nov8tr

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Zerk is my fav mech too. But I do use several others. Like the bruiser, assault and infil too. I played a match or 2 with Pandabaron on the other team the other day. Had fun and lol I killed him and set him on fire more than once. I was in my zerk or my assault doing that. Yeah Panda is a good player. Plenty of skill.


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#27
MomOw

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Hey panda! Don't feel ashamed of mostly playing Zerker, you're a good pilot but as a lower ranked player I don't feel unable to strike back.


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#28
Interrobang87

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i disagree with lowering the zerker's health - it's a front line SUSTAIN A mech - it needs the slightly higher health to stay in the fray longer

 

i completely agree with changing the ability though, flat damage increase is boring and dumb - press X to win should never be a mechanic ever 


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#29
devotion

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it dies in like 3 tows; it's strong, but hardly op material. the only stat that really stands out to me is it's air speed.



#30
Tankman95

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the zerker is one of my favs, too, and was the first mech that I max leveled. But it's absolutly not OP. You can get dumpstered in it quite easily.

 

My thoughts on it: lower the fueltank size a bit and give it the fuel regen ability of the scout.


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#31
Aregon

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the zerker is one of my favs, too, and was the first mech that I max leveled. But it's absolutly not OP. You can get dumpstered in it quite easily.

My thoughts on it: lower the fueltank size a bit and give it the fuel regen ability of the scout.

Which will make it even more OP in the air. And it still got a massive DPS compared to many mechs.

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#32
Pandabaron

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The airspeed is what makes this make unique. It's one of the mechs i don't feel like strapping loads of health orbs to, because it's all about the joy of the aerial combat. About the change up between spearheading and running for dear life because of that low health, and just being able to scrape away because of its speed. Perhaps it's just as many people say, if an experienced pilot is behind the controls, any mech can seem OP. 

I'm having a lot of fun with some of the suggested mech choices though. I'm getting the hang of the predator, but I'm struggling with 1on1's, remembering to fire the breacher and detonate mines underneath an enemy is my multitasking hell. I will however persevere.. And there's always that raider..  


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#33
n3onfx

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And there's always that raider..  

 

 

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#34
Amidatelion

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i disagree with lowering the zerker's health - it's a front line SUSTAIN A mech - it needs the slightly higher health to stay in the fray longer

 

i completely agree with changing the ability though, flat damage increase is boring and dumb - press X to win should never be a mechanic ever 

 

But it's not a front line mech. That's the problem. People use it as such when it is clearly stated to be an assassin.



#35
defekt

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The Zerker suffers from an ability that is perhaps the laziest mech ability in a long line of lazy mech ability designs; if anything needs looking at it should be the ability. 

 

The flight model has its problems -- allows full retreat whilst delivering full DPS (which was never meant to be a thing in Hawken); enables you to damage ground targets that can't aim up enough to hit you back; looks sh_t (but that's a matter of taste) --  and it's the Zerker that's best placed to highlight those problem areas.

 

Fix the Zerker's ability, and address some of the things that make the flight game a bit w_nk, and the Zerker will be okay.


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#36
Hyginos

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I think we should see what an SMC nerf does to it and go from there.


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#37
Pastorius

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I like it please don't nerf.


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#38
HorseHeadProphet

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I say don't change anything. The health difference between the scout and zerker is a whopping 35 points.

 

Against more than one enemy who can aim well, you're toast. Play sloppy and get surrounded, you're wrecked. Run out of gas at the wrong time or overheat, and that extra 35 health you have over the scout isn't going to help you.

 

I also happen to like the ability. Going into beast mode and tearing an unsuspecting C class apart, or firing a missile at a group of enemies, detonating the tow in mid-flight and getting a double kill is awesome. It could be argued that most mech's abilities are "lazy': Oh extra fuel? Wow, real creative. Negate weapon overheat - How long did that take to think up? Go invisible? Never seen that in a game before. It's combat - you want things like that, which are going to give you a direct advantage. If it annoys the enemy - good. Do it more. Get in their head. I quote Sun-Tzu:

 

"If your opponent is of choleric temper, seek to irritate him. Pretend to be weak, that he may grow arrogant. "

 
 

Everyone seems to have ideas about changing the game, nerfing this, buffing that, eliminating those. Yes, there are adjustments to be made, I concede. But saying "oh this needs to be nerfed, or removed because I don't like playing it, or because it kills me a lot of the time and I perceive it as being cheap," is just silly. For example I used to hate scouts, called them OP and everything, until I figured out I was going to have to learn to kill them, key skills being positioning, waiting for the right time and anticipating their movements, and then using careful aim, not just spraying and praying - and looky that, a flaming dead scout. Same goes for zerker. Someone else on the forum made the prfound and correct statement that Mechs are not OP (maybe Incin a little lol) but pilots are.


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#39
Niels

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I think it's a little on OP side. And it promotes laziness, which fits me well but it may not be the best quality ever.

 

A more rewarding/harder to use ability would do it for me. Crazy idea: weapon reversal ability, the weapons/arms rotate around their axis and shoot behind (blidnly, except you have the radar) for a few seconds. Well it might be even more OP, but on the other hand :

- the enemy knows you have triggered the ability so he can adapt

- cool factor, I think

 

Other idea, stronger TOW only (+20%) but with remote detonation disabled.


Edited by Niels, 31 March 2015 - 07:30 AM.


#40
CounterlogicMan

CounterlogicMan

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As usual sorry for any grammar mistakes that might grind your gears.

 

Let us remember the big picture when talking about A-Class balance.

 

1 tow/gl shot = 125 damage splash radius of 4m and 5m respectively before falling off then to a width of 12m and 14m respectively (20dmg at the end of the radius) 2.25s/2.5s reload time respectively. Me and x9x8x7x did some splash radius tests last night and in Hawken 4-5m is larger than you think. I use tow and gl as examples because they are the most common secondaries in the game and are also very forgiving when it comes to accuracy. A zerker is 100% ded in 3 tow/gl shots (decently aimed ofc). That is if you are not firing your primary weapon 6.75s/7.5s ttk on a zerker.

 

Add primary fire in there and the zerker, and really any A-Class, gets rekt in open combat without employing some sort of creative/skillful play. In fact the highest TTK with perfect aim against zerker is alittle over 3 seconds (tech) and the lower end being about half a second. (source) again i need to emphasize these stats are computed assuming perfect aim.

 

If anything the zerker ability puts b/c class on even-ish footing with the zerker while stil giving slight ttk advantage to b and c.

 

What I am trying to get across here is that no A-class, especially the zerker (the frontline a mech), should receive a health nerf. The TTK for A-Classes (avg 1.5s) vs B (avg 2.5s) and C classes (avg 3.5s) (also assuming perfect aim) suggests that lowering A-Class hp would make C-Class and B-Class even more dominant at all levels of play. As you go higher in skill aim gets better and thus A-Class becomes less effective, due to the hp advantage of B and C Classes. 

 

As for Air Compressor being a source of imbalance....I really don't feel so personally. If used it creatively and skillfully it can make a difference in a high level fight, at the expense of fuel, which do not forget is a big part of your ehp. Once it is revealed that the mech has AC, the fight becomes more difficult because the opponent will abuse the downsides of the AC (predictable dodging, more fuel consumption, no cover). AC provides an interesting option for the zerker in really allowing its air prowess to shine. But....no mech can fly forever and an A-Class mech without cover is an easy target for many players out there.


Edited by CounterlogicMan, 31 March 2015 - 08:36 AM.

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