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Is there any reason for average players to use anything other than the Assault?

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#1
Jerv

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Okay, the simplicity of the Assault makes it a good trainer 'mech, but the low skill requirement also makes it seem slightly OP in the hands of slightly more experienced players. There is no one single factor that makes it OP, and in the hands of it's intended pilot (trainees) it actually is well-balanced as it allows them an edge in survivability and damage-dealing that they need to counter their inexperience.

 

The issue is that the factors that make it newb-friendly make it a little too good in the hands of those of moderate skill, those that are better than trainees but don't have the skills to use Flak guns to full effect in CQC. It's balance of above-average DPS, high HP (second only to the Assault G2 for B-class), and lack of real weaknesses (average mobility, and above-average heat management due to it's ability) kind of make it a little better than it's peers. It can out-DPS pretty much anything except an Incinerator or (at CLOSE range) mini-flak Scout while also outlasting anything outside of C-class.

 

Of course, we can't nerf it really as that'd make Hawken hard enough to start out htat a lot of newbies would quit shortly after starting. So we're stuck with the Assault the way it is, but for those who aren't going to become great players yet still prefer killing/winning over losing/dying, is there really any reason (other than lulz) to use any other 'mech? Before you answer, remember that I'm talking about average players, not the minority that chain dash-dodges together to preserve fuel and keep their crosshairs on-target better than aimbots.


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#2
Xacius

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The game isn't perfectly balanced.  Hopefully the new developers can get things into a better state.  Imo, sustained weapons are a bit too powerful.  They're supposed to be medium reliability/medium performance.  Currently, they're medium/strong, primarily because of their DPS.  If it were toned down a bit, mechs with sustained-fire would be more reasonably balanced, and players would have more alternatives to play other mechs.  

 

To make things worse, the Assault is the 2nd fastest B-mech with the 2nd highest armor for a B-mech (outclassed only by the lulzy G2 Assault).  It also has one of the best abilities in the game for use with sustained weapons.  


Edited by Xacius, 21 April 2015 - 07:21 PM.

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#3
Panzermanathod

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If you are an average player I guess you'll like an average mech, eh?



#4
LaurenEmily

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I would say the biggest reason is variety in the gameplay experience. So many mechs in the game are not comparable to the assault and offer different & unique ways to play, which is what most people want. Assault is like a super well-rounded vanilla mech that does it's job perfectly, but can get a little bit boring at times.

 

There's also no reason in my opinion why you couldn't try them out even if you are just a 'casual player', i believe there's something for anyone there.

That's my 2 cents on the subject :)


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#5
MacTep_6oT

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Yes. Vanguard is more fun.

16 more mechs to choose from. Then they can get Brawler and become Fearsome.

And have fun.

Quit trying to fix something that really isn't broken.


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#6
Aregon

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Assault/CR-T is the do-it-all mech, all other mechs are aspects of the things assault can do and are much more specific in their roles.

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#7
-Tj-

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There are two really big reasons any player, average or no, should use other mechs: fun and training.

The fun part is obvious. You won't know what you like or prefer unless you try something else. The game has a reasonably wide selection of weapons and mechs, so there's a lot to discover.

The other part is for training. Learning to play all the mechs also helps you figure out what their strengths and weaknesses are, and how to take advantage of or exploit them.

Really, though, bottom line should be "play whatever you find fun." ;)

#8
Elite_is_salty

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Sustained makes too much dmg. DPS should be a bit lowered, and weapon spread MUST comeback. Once that's done, things will look much more balanced.


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#9
Tankman95

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I suspect that I am such an average player and as such I don't play the assault very often. To be honest I reject the assault cuz the matches are flooded with them.
Usually I take the raider or bruiser and sometimes the good old fred, but no assault.

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#10
Xacius

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Sustained makes too much dmg. DPS should be a bit lowered, and weapon spread MUST comeback. Once that's done, things will look much more balanced.

Spread currently exists, except it's now static for all weapons.   Are you referring to bloom? Bloom is spread that grows over time (most commonly, while firing).

 

Imo, spread bloom is silly unless the weapon does stupidly-high damage.  There's no reason to punish someone for holding down the fire button, especially if they're landing their shots.  

 

For the steam update, the developers made three major changes to buff sustained weapons:

1. Reduced heat values for most sustained weapons, as well as a rebalanced heat system that favored extended sustained fire over spacing out shots.  

2. Weapon bloom removed entirely.  

3. Significant sustained DPS buffs.  

 

They could have done with options 1 and 2, and maybe a tiny DPS buff as well, but current values are a tad high.  

 

But bloom?  That's a shite mechanic. 


Edited by Xacius, 21 April 2015 - 11:33 PM.

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#11
CrimsonKaim

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Sustained makes too much dmg. DPS should be a bit lowered, and weapon spread MUST comeback. Once that's done, things will look much more balanced.

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#12
CrimsonKaim

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Spread currently exists, except it's now static for all weapons. Are you referring to bloom? Bloom is spread that grows over time (most commonly, while firing).

Imo, spread bloom is silly unless the weapon does stupidly-high damage. There's no reason to punish someone for holding down the fire button, especially if they're landing their shots.

For the steam update, the developers made three major changes to buff sustained weapons:
1. Reduced heat values for most sustained weapons, as well as a rebalanced heat system that favored extended sustained fire over spacing out shots.
2. Weapon bloom removed entirely.
3. Significant sustained DPS buffs.

They could have done with options 1 and 2, and maybe a tiny DPS buff as well, but current values are a tad high.

But bloom? That's a shite mechanic.


No. Bloom or recoil as I call it is good because it doesn't really punish the player from shooting but more for shooting too long. Additionally, the great accuracy loss while mid air should also come back. I hate seeing snipers with AC all over the maps, especially bunker.
Though for the bloom, it shouldn't be more than 100% (double spread). Additionally this should be the case after a long time of shooting, let's say 3 seconds. The accuracy will be perfectly again after not shooting for 0.5 seconds. Just examples.
But as it is now, Hawken does simply not have any core mechanics of a shooter. No ammo clips (I am fine with that), no recoil, no bullet drop, no actual projectiles (hitscan), no mid air spread, etc. etc.

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#13
Nept

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No. Bloom or recoil as I call it is good because it doesn't really punish the player from shooting but more for shooting too long. Additionally, the great accuracy loss while mid air should also come back. I hate seeing snipers with AC all over the maps, especially bunker.
 

 

Yeah, no.

 

I swear, 90% of your posts/threads bring a collective community facepalm.  What was that last one?  TDM losses shouldn't count as losses?

 

*Edit* Oh god, and that ridiculous "Officially OP Mechs Are" thread.  Go take a goddamn stats/research methods class.

 

Bloom in an arena shooter is trash.


Edited by Nept, 22 April 2015 - 12:02 AM.

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#14
Shoutaxeror

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There are two really big reasons any player, average or no, should use other mechs: fun and training.

The fun part is obvious.

 

Not for everybody.


Edited by Shoutaxeror, 22 April 2015 - 12:21 AM.

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#15
CrimsonKaim

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Yeah, no.

I swear, 90% of your posts/threads bring a collective community facepalm. What was that last one? TDM losses shouldn't count as losses?

*Edit* Oh god, and that ridiculous "Officially OP Mechs Are" thread. Go take a goddamn stats/research methods class.

Bloom in an arena shooter is trash.


Bloom was in before and it was fine. Actually required skill to shoot properly but what we have now is a shooter for 6 year olds. For those who are not able to shoot with recoil and stuff.

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#16
kingalbert2

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vaiety i'd say. assault is fun and all, but you aint blowing sh*t up point blank like the raider would, neither will you be able to hold the line like a vanguard or brawler.

 

assault is good, but it has no specialty.

 

 

also, didn't the am-sar lose accuacry fast when fired at max speed?


Edited by kingalbert2, 22 April 2015 - 02:14 AM.


#17
Xacius

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Bloom was in before and it was fine. Actually required skill to shoot properly but what we have now is a shooter for 6 year olds. For those who are not able to shoot with recoil and stuff.

Bloom was in before, and sustained was woefully underpowered compared to burst.  It was very far from "fine."

 

Additionally, bloom doesn't increase the skill ceiling.  It's a counter-intuitive mechanic used to simulate recoil, and it's just silly.  The only thing it would do is nerf sustained weapons in the worst way possible.  RNG spread is stupid.  



#18
M4st0d0n

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Bloom can be totally bypassed by simple scripts, was done before even in comp plays. Recoil doesnt fit with mechs IMO. Heat management needs a rework because unlimited sustained with no recharge time/ammo is indeed stupid.



#19
Armymonger

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Yes.

Because using assault is flavorless.
And people like variety.
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#20
Superkamikazee

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Last thing Hawken needs is more burst mechs on the battlefield. If sustained gets significantly buffed, prepare for "everything with burst / mobility is OP" threads to flood the official forums, the steam forums, and the Steam reviews saying the game isn't balanced. 


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#21
Pelanthoris

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Last thing Hawken needs is more burst mechs on the battlefield. If sustained gets significantly buffed, prepare for "everything with burst / mobility is OP" threads to flood the official forums, the steam forums, and the Steam reviews saying the game isn't balanced. 

 

This. From MMR ~1800 perspective, burst weapons are way too powerful in the hands of a skilled pilot. Getting ganked again and again by an skilled flak scout is imho the main reason new players quit playing this game.

 

I think bloom/recoil was a good mechanic. It added one good parameter to sustained weapons which enabled weapons like AR to be versatile and useful, without being OP. When did you see anyone use AR last time? With current mechanic, if dps or accuracy is increased, it's OP, now it's useless. It used to be a fun weapon.

 

And as always, forums overpresent skilled/competive players. If devs make this game based on forums and views of +2000 MMR people, they alienate most of paying customers.


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#22
Superkamikazee

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This. From MMR ~1800 perspective, burst weapons are way too powerful in the hands of a skilled pilot. Getting ganked again and again by an skilled flak scout is imho the main reason new players quit playing this game.

 

I think bloom/recoil was a good mechanic. It added one good parameter to sustained weapons which enabled weapons like AR to be versatile and useful, without being OP. When did you see anyone use AR last time? With current mechanic, if dps or accuracy is increased, it's OP, now it's useless. It used to be a fun weapon.

 

And as always, forums overpresent skilled/competive players. If devs make this game based on forums and views of +2000 MMR people, they alienate most of paying customers.

 

Agreed. Between the "remove the delay", "air compressor standard", and now "nerf sustain to make burst better", 2000+ MMR players want to fundamentally change the game to "raise the skill ceiling". Give me a break, the majority of playes can't even break 1700 MMR, and the skill ceiling needs to be raised? Large majority of players can't even see the ceiling as is, and it needs to be higher? Please.


Edited by Superkamikazee, 22 April 2015 - 05:38 AM.

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#23
-Tj-

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There are two really big reasons any player, average or no, should use other mechs: fun and training.

The fun part is obvious.

Not for everybody.

 

Seems obvious enough to me. Play for fun. Try new things to see what's "funner."



#24
Duralumi

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While bloom is on the table, I'd like the bloom to come back to the Assault Rifle only, but to also increase it's base accuracy by a HUGE margin; you could also lower its DPS a tiny bit.


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#25
PoopSlinger

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. So we're stuck with the Assault the way it is, but for those who aren't going to become great players yet still prefer killing/winning over losing/dying, is there really any reason (other than lulz) to use any other 'mech? Before you answer, remember that I'm talking about average players, not the minority that chain dash-dodges together to preserve fuel and keep their crosshairs on-target better than aimbots.

 

Raider is fastest and most fun to rocketship across maps to kill people.  Reaper/ SS shoot assaults in the face from many meters away.  Vanguard, go turret mode and walk right up into assaults face eating all of its bullets. G2Raider, if you're on wreckage you'll win.

 

There are plenty of reasons to use other robots. 


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#26
CounterlogicMan

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Spread currently exists, except it's now static for all weapons.   Are you referring to bloom? Bloom is spread that grows over time (most commonly, while firing).

 

Imo, spread bloom is silly unless the weapon does stupidly-high damage.  There's no reason to punish someone for holding down the fire button, especially if they're landing their shots.  

 

For the steam update, the developers made three major changes to buff sustained weapons:

1. Reduced heat values for most sustained weapons, as well as a rebalanced heat system that favored extended sustained fire over spacing out shots.  

2. Weapon bloom removed entirely.  

3. Significant sustained DPS buffs.  

 

They could have done with options 1 and 2, and maybe a tiny DPS buff as well, but current values are a tad high.  

 

But bloom?  That's a shite mechanic. 

 

Agree with everything except I would argue more in favor of increasing heat generation of sustained weapons rather than decreasing dps.

 

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#27
Nept

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Bloom was in before and it was fine. Actually required skill to shoot properly but what we have now is a shooter for 6 year olds. For those who are not able to shoot with recoil and stuff.

 

Bloom isn't the same as recoil.  Nor does bloom's management take any skill whatsoever.  It's just RNG after a set time period.

 

Also, everyone hated it.

 

Arena shooters don't include recoil in their mechanics because the skill comes from tracing targets that are able to rapidly shift direction.  "Realistic" shooters include recoil mechanics because it's easy as balls to hit opponents, so you need something to make shooting more difficult.



#28
Jerv

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If you are an average player I guess you'll like an average mech, eh?

 

Well, I got beat to the punch...

 

Because using assault is flavorless.
And people like variety.

 

Assault does get boring, and I would like to be able to play other mechs without getting totally outclassed by a "trainer" mech.

 

 


There's also no reason in my opinion why you couldn't try them out even if you are just a 'casual player', i believe there's something for anyone there.

That's my 2 cents on the subject :)

 

Well, at ~850 HC per hour, it takes practically forever to earn enough to buy a new mech. Now, 15 hours of battle time can take me over a month depending on what else is going on, and I'm not going to blow a month's work on something that will just get shredded by an Assault. Or rather, I won't do that again. Also, it takes even longer if you do "stupid" things like by internals/items for mechs you already own. If the economy of the game were better then yes, though I will say that the Test Drive feature is nice.

 

This. From MMR ~1800 perspective, burst weapons are way too powerful in the hands of a skilled pilot. Getting ganked again and again by an skilled flak scout is imho the main reason new players quit playing this game.

 

I think bloom/recoil was a good mechanic. It added one good parameter to sustained weapons which enabled weapons like AR to be versatile and useful, without being OP. When did you see anyone use AR last time? With current mechanic, if dps or accuracy is increased, it's OP, now it's useless. It used to be a fun weapon.

 

And as always, forums overpresent skilled/competive players. If devs make this game based on forums and views of +2000 MMR people, they alienate most of paying customers.

 

Getting ganked again and again by Assaults and Berserkers is what has me on the fence as to whether I want to stay myself.

And yes, the forums will be mostly super-serious players that are not actually truly representative of the entire player base.

 

Seems obvious enough to me. Play for fun. Try new things to see what's "funner."

 

Well, having Assault after Assault walk away from me with less than 40 HP regardless of what mech I am in, none of them are really fun any more. When I go up against pretty much any other mech, then it's usually a fair fight whether I'm in my slow-but-sturdy Brawler or my fast-but-fragile Scout. Against pretty much anything except for an Assault, I can give as good as I get and have a 50/50 shot at being the one that walks away.

 

 

Raider is fastest and most fun to rocketship across maps to kill people.  Reaper/ SS shoot assaults in the face from many meters away.  Vanguard, go turret mode and walk right up into assaults face eating all of its bullets. G2Raider, if you're on wreckage you'll win.

 

If it were that easy then my Raider, Reaper, and Vanguard would at least be competitive. They aren't, at least not versus Assaults. My Raider and Scout often die before they are close enough to counter the damage drop-off of their flak guns, my Reaper loses due to it's HP deficit unless I manage to get the drop on them, while the Vanguard just isn't fast enough to keep Assaults from doing to me what I usually do to C-classes in my Reaper or Scout. And it's not like most maps are really set up for true sniping, especially not since they seem to have issues with "pop-up" on distant mechs. (It's now my system either. My GTX465 doesn't have Draw Distance issues with other games.)

Then again, with a 2348 MMR, you probably have a lot better results with those mechs than I do anyways; you obviously have more skill than me.


Still recovering from a neurological incident, spent a couple months learning how to walk without a cane,

figured I'd try a fast-paced game to see if I could get my reflexes back to where they were.

Garage:

A - Infiltrator, Reaper, Technician, Scout

B - Assault (x2), Predator, Raider

C - Brawler, Vanguard, Incinerator


#29
Jerv

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I tried a little experiment and found something interesting. The mechs that I seem to have the most difficulty against, the ones that seem to kill me the fastest, all have one thing in common; the Assault Rifle. Berzerkers have also given me issues, but I thought that was just because they were hard to hit.

 

Last night I tried the Assault and noticed my TTK was ridiculously low without even using the TOW. Then I tried the Infiltrator with the Assault Rifle... and same thing, even without the Grenade Launcher. I tried a few others just for comparison. The findings were... disappointing. 

 

Allegedly, the Hawkins-RPR on the Reaper and Tech have the same DPS as the Assault Rifle but with more range and accuracy, yet it apparently does not.

Allegedly the B3-AR:BBY has superior DPS and Accuracy with the same range as the Assault Rifle, yet that seems to also be false.

 

Are the numbers given for the Assault Rifle lies?


Still recovering from a neurological incident, spent a couple months learning how to walk without a cane,

figured I'd try a fast-paced game to see if I could get my reflexes back to where they were.

Garage:

A - Infiltrator, Reaper, Technician, Scout

B - Assault (x2), Predator, Raider

C - Brawler, Vanguard, Incinerator


#30
Kopra

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I tried a little experiment and found something interesting. The mechs that I seem to have the most difficulty against, the ones that seem to kill me the fastest, all have one thing in common; the Assault Rifle. Berzerkers have also given me issues, but I thought that was just because they were hard to hit.
 
Last night I tried the Assault and noticed my TTK was ridiculously low without even using the TOW. Then I tried the Infiltrator with the Assault Rifle... and same thing, even without the Grenade Launcher. I tried a few others just for comparison. The findings were... disappointing. 
 
Allegedly, the Hawkins-RPR on the Reaper and Tech have the same DPS as the Assault Rifle but with more range and accuracy, yet it apparently does not.
Allegedly the B3-AR:BBY has superior DPS and Accuracy with the same range as the Assault Rifle, yet that seems to also be false.
 
Are the numbers given for the Assault Rifle lies?


Both RPR and BBY have more spread than AR which is a major factor against anything beyond close-mid range.

#31
Jerv

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Both RPR and BBY have more spread than AR which is a major factor against anything beyond close-mid range.

 

Therefore, with sustained being the new meta, there isn't any reason to use any weapon other than Assault Rifle?


Still recovering from a neurological incident, spent a couple months learning how to walk without a cane,

figured I'd try a fast-paced game to see if I could get my reflexes back to where they were.

Garage:

A - Infiltrator, Reaper, Technician, Scout

B - Assault (x2), Predator, Raider

C - Brawler, Vanguard, Incinerator


#32
Silverfire

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Where are you determining these stats? The RPR and AR, I'm pretty sure don't have the same DPS.

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#33
Kopra

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Therefore, with sustained being the new meta, there isn't any reason to use any weapon other than Assault Rifle?


The mechs that have the RPR don't have access to AR though. If you're more precise and/or your targets are fatter, RPR is the superior choice due to range... if you could choose between the two.

#34
Interrobang87

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Sustain is strong in lower brackets because new players do not utilize cover effectively

/thread
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#35
Vdragon

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Agreed. Between the "remove the delay", "air compressor standard", and now "nerf sustain to make burst better", 2000+ MMR players want to fundamentally change the game to "raise the skill ceiling". Give me a break, the majority of playes can't even break 1700 MMR, and the skill ceiling needs to be raised? Large majority of players can't even see the ceiling as is, and it needs to be higher? Please.

Well, not all 2000+ players. And actually those modification would lower the skill ceiling, imo, except the sustain nerf, which would just be nonsense.

 

Sustain is strong in lower brackets because new players do not utilize cover effectively

/thread

This.

Sustain being really powerful in open ground is normal.


Edited by Vdragon, 23 April 2015 - 03:30 PM.

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#36
Jerv

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Where are you determining these stats? The RPR and AR, I'm pretty sure don't have the same DPS.

 

Both Salty Stats and the bar-graphs presented in-game and on the wiki.

 

 

The mechs that have the RPR don't have access to AR though. If you're more precise and/or your targets are fatter, RPR is the superior choice due to range... if you could choose between the two.

 

Only at long ranges; the sort of ranges you normally don't engage at on certain maps. If you're shooting across Facility or Origin, yes, but on Wreckage, no, and on many other maps it's conditional. At Medium Range, the RPR seems to put more rounds on-target than the RPR though.

 

 

Sustain is strong in lower brackets because new players do not utilize cover effectively

 

Given the low TTK against A and B class combined with the general slowness of C class, it's moot, especially if you get close enough to try using any sort of flak weapon. Using cover effectively enough to have an A or B class survive is generally something only found in those above average; last I checked, 2281 MMR was in that category. In fact, if these numbers are remotely correct, then most players (>75%) are "lower brackets" (<2000 MMR).

 

 

Sustain being really powerful in open ground is normal.

 

If all Sustain were created equal, I would agree. Then again, if that were the case, we wouldn't be having this discussion anyways.


Still recovering from a neurological incident, spent a couple months learning how to walk without a cane,

figured I'd try a fast-paced game to see if I could get my reflexes back to where they were.

Garage:

A - Infiltrator, Reaper, Technician, Scout

B - Assault (x2), Predator, Raider

C - Brawler, Vanguard, Incinerator


#37
Panzermanathod

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Both Salty Stats and the bar-graphs presented in-game and on the wiki.

 

 

 

I am leery at the game's stats as the Raider's (G1 and 2) Corsair have the exact same stats, despite not being the same in power and RoF



#38
Kopra

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Kopra, on 23 Apr 2015 - 3:03 PM, said:snapback.png

The mechs that have the RPR don't have access to AR though. If you're more precise and/or your targets are fatter, RPR is the superior choice due to range... if you could choose between the two.

 

 

Only at long ranges; the sort of ranges you normally don't engage at on certain maps. If you're shooting across Facility or Origin, yes, but on Wreckage, no, and on many other maps it's conditional. At Medium Range, the RPR seems to put more rounds on-target than the RPR though.

 

I believe I didn't explain myself properly. Let me elaborate. AR and RPR are otherwise equal DPS at their optimum ranges, which are 60m and 80m respectively. RPR's falloff range starts later (= higher damage potential), but has a higher spread than AR has. This means that you will have to try harder to hit into the center of a hitbox so you will not get screwed over by spread and thus missing shots. The spread pattern of RPR is approximately the size of an A-class mech at 80-100 meters, so to get maximized DPS you will either have to compensate by tracking a much smaller space than you would with a more accurate weapon, or in the Reaper's case, activate the ability. Against meatier targets, B and C-classes, having a higher spread makes less difference than against a smaller target because you have more room to work with, so to speak. You don't always need the most accurate weapon if you can compensate by being able to aim better at the center.


Edited by Kopra, 24 April 2015 - 03:46 AM.


#39
WillyW

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Maybe I'm alone here, but am I the only one who thinks the CR-T is more practical than the Assault? I feel that the Assault is a slower, but more powerful brother to the CR-T. More powerful in the sense that it has higher armor, and lower speed with the same DPS for the same weapons. I find the speed of the CR-T makes it more adapted for close-range against Light mechs. Whereas the Assault handles close-range just as well, except it has the armor to take the damage instead of relying on speed.


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#40
Meraple

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I personally prefer the Vulcan over the AR on my Assault, because I mostly fight in closer ranges.

The DPS is simply delicious, and so is the sound.

 

 

Last night I tried the Assault and noticed my TTK was ridiculously low without even using the TOW. Then I tried the Infiltrator with the Assault Rifle... and same thing, even without the Grenade Launcher. I tried a few others just for comparison. The findings were... disappointing.

..I'm not sure why you find the TTK with only an AR ridiculously low.

It's a sustained weapon, if you repeatedly hit your shots it's supposed to have more DPS than a burst weapon.

AR doesn't have that high of a DPS either imo, but then I'm used to the Vulcan.


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