Phew playing overwatch with all this LAG COMPENSATION sure is fun! I mean idc what is happening and idc that its 20 tick but man imagive if it was 20 tick with server side hitscans and projectiles, everyone would be so mad. Even at 80 ping it just feels great even for a vet or a nub to actually have responsive weapons. Gee golly i wish another game i knew would have LAG COMPENSATION so i can actually stop targeting the air and maybe have some sensible gameplay. Oh wait COD and BF4 does I may aswell try that wooooo prestep feels amazing piew piew watatatatat die noobs. Oh man what is a hawken looks like fun wtf why do i have to lead my weapons wtf the firing delay is huge is this weapon a projectile or a hitscan god damn it you know what ill just stick to Overwatch, i appreciate the effort but you know, hitscanning the air isnt as fun as i thought it would be.
Phew playing overwatch with all this LAG COMPENSATION sure is fun! I mean idc what is happening and idc that its 20 tick but man imagive if it was 20 tick with server side hitscans and projectiles, everyone would be so mad. Even at 80 ping it just feels great even for a vet or a nub to actually have responsive weapons. Gee golly i wish another game i knew would have LAG COMPENSATION so i can actually stop targeting the air and maybe have some sensible gameplay. Oh wait COD and BF4 does I may aswell try that wooooo prestep feels amazing piew piew watatatatat die noobs. Oh man what is a hawken looks like fun wtf why do i have to lead my weapons wtf the firing delay is huge is this weapon a projectile or a hitscan god damn it you know what ill just stick to Overwatch, i appreciate the effort but you know, hitscanning the air isnt as fun as i thought it would be.
ok man im just going to tell you what you've been doing WRONG this whole thread YOU ARE NEW TO THE FORUMS and you are TALKING DOWN TO the people who have been here for YEARS.... you have no idea how much pf this crap we have to deal with,
TL:DR what you did wrong was making this your first post and then talking down to people
PS: GET OVERWATCH OUT OF THIS FORUM I'M FUZZING DONE WITH PEOPLE USING THE HAWKEN FORUMSTO TALK ABOUT OVERWATCH......
ok man im just going to tell you what you've been doing WRONG this whole thread YOU ARE NEW TO THE FORUMS and you are TALKING DOWN TO the people who have been here for YEARS.... you have no idea how much pf this crap we have to deal with,
TL:DR what you did wrong was making this your first post and then talking down to people
PS: GET OVERWATCH OUT OF THIS FORUM I'M FUZZING DONE WITH PEOPLE USING THE HAWKEN FORUMSTO TALK ABOUT OVERWATCH......
Spoiler
i'm very tired
Theres no need to be so arrogant. There are alot of things hawken could learn from overwatch. If hawken had jsut 1% of OW playerbase I might actually play it again.
You're trying to compare Reloaded to Blizzard...which is like comparing a horse and buggy to a Ferrari !
If you're so unhappy with the Hawken game situation (which many here still are) please take your talents to OW and be happy.... but you look foolish coming on the forum to trash this game by praising another one.
And when has the tactic of the old guard reprimanding the new people for such "infractions" really ever reliably worked? Probably happens as often as "scout is OP" complaints but it still persists.
Im trying to provide an outside perspective as to why I hate this game, even though I love it. You can tell me to go away but my opinion is the same. Casuals love lag comp, and casuals will flood as soon as they notice that it is in the game (even if they dont understand what lag comp means.).
Im trying to provide an outside perspective as to why I hate this game, even though I love it. You can tell me to go away but my opinion is the same. Casuals love lag comp, and casuals will flood as soon as they notice that it is in the game (even if they dont understand what lag comp means.).
Getting people to play the game is the issue, and getting people to stay is the issue, and I highly doubt lag compensation will do much at all. Casuals might "love lag comp" because it makes the game easier. While I do agree that the game should be more accessible to newer players, lowering a skill ceiling is not the way to do so.
Lag compensation wouldn't even be necessary if there were enough people to fill the servers, so repopulate the population and see if it's still a problem.
Games are also not popular because they have lag compensation. Overwatch is popular because of the massive amounts of advertising done, it's developed by a AAA developer. CSGO is popular on name recognition and relative ease of access to basic gameplay. COD/BF type games are popular because military shooters are historically popular regardless of how much skill it requires. They are all, to my knowledge, produced by AAA developers with money for advertising and regular updates. I would not attribute a game's massive popularity to simple lag compensation. Might be like saying a certain model of car is popular only simply because they have a few volume control buttons on the steering wheel for your radio. It might make the driving experience a little better and centralized, but by far it is not the reason why the car is popular.
I get it. I think the forums get it. You don't like the lag associated with your ping and location among other things. But grow the population, have more players in the region that you actually play, and I don't think there would be any need for such compensation across high pings, far location connections, type stuff. Lag compensation is not the end-all-Hawken-problems solution. No way in literal hell. Real content, semi-regular updates, improved servers, transparent developer communication. That would save Hawken worlds better than lag compensation would.
Edited by Silverfire, 06 June 2016 - 01:04 AM.
DieselCat, StubbornPuppet, Badtings and 1 other like this
Csgo, TF2, and other source/gldsource games from valve aren't "lag compensated" in the way battlefield and others are.
The fact that crouched hitboxes defusing in cs and shooters missing them is a years old meme should indicate that simple "favor the shooter" scenarios are non existent.
He's obviously never adjusted his rates or interp in those games.
He is largely ignorant of source net code.
This dirtygomchknov kid's terrible opinions are woefully misinformed.
The unreal netcode isn't a looming issue for hawken.
It pales in comparison to the abysmal tic rate.
EOC Raider, Bolt Pred, Rev Gl Gren, EOC Infil, All the Reapers, Father, Expert in Guitar Kung Fu, and Founder of TPG Hawken
I think the 80k current active players might have a different opinion on what sucks or what doesn't, i can almost guarantee if hawken has lag comp its playerbase will increase form 250 active to atleast 1k in just a few months. A simple NETCODE UPDATE advertisement on steam is all that is needed to save the game, maybe even turn it into something worth while.
What I said "Battlefield 4 has lag compensation and it sucks. " what i should have said was that "BF4 has lag comp and the lag compensation sucks donkey balls."
It is my opinion that BF4 doesn't have 80K players because of lag compensation. The update advertisement idea would be huge for tricking tons of people to come back for like 3 hours.
Come on Crafty, you have been officially called out on your lies. Your online reputation is at stake here, this is just like an old school street race running for pink slips. Its run what you brung and hope its enough. Put up or shut the fuzzy bunny up.
Phew playing overwatch with all this LAG COMPENSATION sure is fun! I mean idc what is happening and idc that its 20 tick but man imagive if it was 20 tick with server side hitscans and projectiles, everyone would be so mad. Even at 80 ping it just feels great even for a vet or a nub to actually have responsive weapons. Gee golly i wish another game i knew would have LAG COMPENSATION so i can actually stop targeting the air and maybe have some sensible gameplay. Oh wait COD and BF4 does I may aswell try that wooooo prestep feels amazing piew piew watatatatat die noobs. Oh man what is a hawken looks like fun wtf why do i have to lead my weapons wtf the firing delay is huge is this weapon a projectile or a hitscan god damn it you know what ill just stick to Overwatch, i appreciate the effort but you know, hitscanning the air isnt as fun as i thought it would be.
you like 20 tic because you don't know any better
talon70 and Badtings like this
EOC Raider, Bolt Pred, Rev Gl Gren, EOC Infil, All the Reapers, Father, Expert in Guitar Kung Fu, and Founder of TPG Hawken
Getting people to play the game is the issue, and getting people to stay is the issue, and I highly doubt lag compensation will do much at all. Casuals might "love lag comp" because it makes the game easier. While I do agree that the game should be more accessible to newer players, lowering a skill ceiling is not the way to do so.
Lag compensation wouldn't even be necessary if there were enough people to fill the servers, so repopulate the population and see if it's still a problem.
Games are also not popular because they have lag compensation. Overwatch is popular because of the massive amounts of advertising done, it's developed by a AAA developer. CSGO is popular on name recognition and relative ease of access to basic gameplay. COD/BF type games are popular because military shooters are historically popular regardless of how much skill it requires. They are all, to my knowledge, produced by AAA developers with money for advertising and regular updates. I would not attribute a game's massive popularity to simple lag compensation. Might be like saying a certain model of car is popular only simply because they have a few volume control buttons on the steering wheel for your radio. It might make the driving experience a little better and centralized, but by far it is not the reason why the car is popular.
I get it. I think the forums get it. You don't like the lag associated with your ping and location among other things. But grow the population, have more players in the region that you actually play, and I don't think there would be any need for such compensation across high pings, far location connections, type stuff. Lag compensation is not the end-all-Hawken-problems solution. No way in literal hell. Real content, semi-regular updates, improved servers, transparent developer communication. That would save Hawken worlds better than lag compensation would.
I played it, I didnt stay, and I know why. There might be greater gameplay issues like pay2win/brokenmm/imbalance but I cant experience that since the game is unplayable, so i just leave. Im not going to be 40 ping fodder, its just unfun and unsatisfying for either party. Lag comp doesnt make the game "easier" it makes the game "fairer", its time Hawken players realise the difference. Server side everything isnt increasing the skill barrier, it is increasing the geographical barrier, which limits your market and at the same time your success. It has nothing to do with the skill ceiling. Was CSGO's skill ceiling affected by lag comp? No. Hawken wouldn't either.
Local servers dont solve anything, especially with a peak of 250 players, most which reside in NA and EU, its pointless to expect players in dead regions to find games like in Oceanic and Asia. The only regions that matter is NA and EU for dead games.
CSGO was never popular at the start, and it was mostly because of netcode.Valve acknowledged its importance and dealt with it and its now one of the most popular games. Try and post about server side hitscans for CSGO and everyone would laugh at you, theres no need for an explanation as to why it wouldnt work.
OW is popular because its made by a dev that historically is known to give a fuzzy bunny. And part of giving a fuzzy bunny is developing a fair and consistent netcode. OW has generally done that regardless of what noobs seem to think. Same rule applies to BF series and CoD.
When i talk about the importance of lag comp, its not an opinion. Its a statistical fact that any shooter that plans to survive in the casual market (the only market that really matters if you plan to earn anything) must have lag compensation. Look at steamcharts and find me a non lag compensated shooter that has a playerbase above 500. Ill be here all year.
Csgo, TF2, and other source/gldsource games from valve aren't "lag compensated" in the way battlefield and others are.
The fact that crouched hitboxes defusing in cs and shooters missing them is a years old meme should indicate that simple "favor the shooter" scenarios are non existent.
He's obviously never adjusted his rates or interp in those games.
He is largely ignorant of source net code.
This dirtygomchknov kid's terrible opinions are woefully misinformed.
The unreal netcode isn't a looming issue for hawken.
It pales in comparison to the abysmal tic rate.
Are you telling me CSGO/tf2 uses server side hitscans? You are the one that is woefully misinformed. If CSGO doesnt favour the shooter then I dont think you know what that word means.
What I said "Battlefield 4 has lag compensation and it sucks. " what i should have said was that "BF4 has lag comp and the lag compensation sucks donkey balls."
It is my opinion that BF4 doesn't have 80K players because of lag compensation. The update advertisement idea would be huge for tricking tons of people to come back for like 3 hours.
What you are saying is an opinion, and thats great and all but it doesn't really add to discussion since it isn't backed by anything. Find a successful unlag compensated shooter, I dare you, because statistics dont lie. The only shooters that survive today are lag compensated and its time to accept it, even at a high skill level.
you like 20 tic because you don't know any better
Id much rather 20 tick over server side hitscans and projectiles. 20 tick isn't really the netcode either, its just a server specification. The 20 tick circlejerk is the biggest issue in OW atm because casuals dont know anything else to complain about when there are many other issues in the game that can be dealt with without directly affecting blizzards spending, but they rather not bring those to light because they don't understand it well enough. If it was up to me I would give all the african kids 60 tick servers too, but thats not how the market works. Blizz has to protect their bottom line, however once they see overwatch as a sustainable project, it is extremely likely they will switch to 60tick.
Edited by dmirtygorachyov, 06 June 2016 - 04:54 PM.
CSGO getting popular had more to do with the introduction of cosmetics and random skin drops than better netcode. CS had already made its niche, and being popular or not wasn't going to be something decided by some netcode changes.
Do you honestly think that if Overwatch had been developed by a different company and without marketing push it would have done just as well, even if the resulting game was identical?
You assert that the casual audience makes or breaks a game, and I agree with that, but I submit to you that the casual audience (being as they are, casual) need only the bare minimum quality of netcode so long as the gameplay keeps them engaged. They won't notice the difference between anything above passable.
Csgo does not have lag compensation.
It becomes unplayable above a low threshold compared to lag compensated games like bf4 in terms of latency.
Also he has no idea why anything is or isn't a popular game.
He's obviously got developmental and intellectual deficits that will be difficult to overcome.
Not only is he wrong, but he's using what he is wrong about to assert further delusions he's basing on it.
The thing I can be most sure of, is he's very likely very bad at games.
Edited by CraftyDus, 07 June 2016 - 08:03 AM.
Kindos7 and dmirtygorachyov like this
EOC Raider, Bolt Pred, Rev Gl Gren, EOC Infil, All the Reapers, Father, Expert in Guitar Kung Fu, and Founder of TPG Hawken
Csgo does not have lag compensation.
It becomes unplayable above a low threshold compared to lag compensated games like bf4 in terms of latency.
Also he has no idea why anything is or isn't a popular game.
He's obviously got developmental and intellectual deficits that will be difficult to overcome.
Not only is he wrong, but he's using what he is wrong about to assert further delusions he's basing on it.
The thing I can be most sure of, is he's very likely very bad at games.
Thats what lag comp is btw
Show me the data.
CSGO getting popular had more to do with the introduction of cosmetics and random skin drops than better netcode. CS had already made its niche, and being popular or not wasn't going to be something decided by some netcode changes.
Do you honestly think that if Overwatch had been developed by a different company and without marketing push it would have done just as well, even if the resulting game was identical?
You assert that the casual audience makes or breaks a game, and I agree with that, but I submit to you that the casual audience (being as they are, casual) need only the bare minimum quality of netcode so long as the gameplay keeps them engaged. They won't notice the difference between anything above passable.
List of games that uses lag compensation of any form.
Planetside 2, Unreal tournament 4, Unreal tournament 3, Ark, Rust, Dayz, Counter strike Global offensive, CS Source, GTA V, Garry's mod, Black ops 3, Arma 3, H1Z1, War thunder, Left 4 dead 2, MGSV TPP, Robocraft, Dirtybomb, Rainbox 6 siege, AVA, Warframe, Warhammer Vermintide, Payday, Evolve, Star wars battlefront, Tom Clancys Ghost recon Online, Chivalry Medieval warfare, Splatoon, Destiny, Titanfall, Minecraft, Firefall, Warframe, gears of war, Destiny, Uncharted series, ARMA series, All Halo games except Halo 1,Insurgency, Killing floor 2, Battleborn,Heroes & Generals, Starwars Battlefront 3.
List of games that DOESN'T use lag compensation of any form.
Redorchestra series, Hawken
Feel free to add to the list, every non lag compensated shooter is dead. I have proven it. Unless you can prove otherwise.
Loaded question aside about overwatch, yes I do think if any dev decided to tackle a game like OW it would be popular. No one has tried to make a shooter with abilties yet. I mean hawken is fairly similar to overwatch in many ways, but it doesnt give a fuzzy bunny about the casual market as you can see by the lack of lag comp. Blizzard embraces casuals, they know its what they need to survive. I tried the beta, I wasn't a big fan but what other alternative do i have for shooters? CoD? BF4? Hawken? Hawken is dead in my region, why should I care about the game if the game doesn't care about me? OW I can play on US servers without feeling like im at a massive disadvantage. Stop using this against me, im not the only one who appreciate's this, as you can tell by the amount of casuals playing high ping lag compensated games on consoles.
Casuals wont notice netcode immediately, but they will feel something is off about the game. THe game doesnt feel responsive etcetc. Every game with server side hitscans and projectiles always feel like garbage, and casuals will know something is off but they cant pin point what it is. Also its unsatisfactory to actually be aware of how the netcode handles weapons and having to compensate for ping for you to actually hit. Casuals wont know that. Casuals come from CoD/BF4/console games whicbh are all heavily lag compensated. If you just told them "oh btw you ahve to compensate for ping to aim your hitscan weapons unlike every other game you ever played ever" they are going to respond with "rofll, ill just stick to CoD where my crosshair is true, it just makes more sense to play a shooting game that way".
And please stop making the 1+1=3 argument that "CSGO was successful + It has lag compensation = Lag compensation makes games successful." It's insane.
The only thing that is insane is the amount of denialism in this forums that is bringing hawken to the grave to preserve low ping advantage and call it a "high skill ceiling".
Edited by dmirtygorachyov, 07 June 2016 - 05:45 PM.
When I said "show me the data" I assumed it would be obvious that I was looking for data that was relevant to the discussion. You simply added a broken steamcharts link and proceeded to, yet again, state your assertions as proof of themselves. Opening the discussion with an assertion places the burden of proof on you. Do not try to shift it.
Forgive me for assuming that this conversation would be productive.
To be clear though, I don't think anyone has said that lag compensation is something that Hawken doesn't need, only that it is not the only thing or the most important thing. Honestly I'm not convinced Hawken has no lag comp at all whatsoever anyway. The server experience has varied so much even since the last time anything was done to the game that it really is hard to tell.
When I said "show me the data" I assumed it would be obvious that I was looking for data that was relevant to the discussion. You simply added a broken steamcharts link and proceeded to, yet again, state your assertions as proof of themselves. Opening the discussion with an assertion places the burden of proof on you. Do not try to shift it.
Forgive me for assuming that this conversation would be productive.
To be clear though, I don't think anyone has said that lag compensation is something that Hawken doesn't need, only that it is not the only thing or the most important thing. Honestly I'm not convinced Hawken has no lag comp at all whatsoever anyway. The server experience has varied so much even since the last time anything was done to the game that it really is hard to tell.
Alright let me hold your hand.
On the first page, the only unlag compensated MP games is SMITE, DOTA 2, and maybe terraria.
I dont want to have to list all the games because Im pretty sure you can see for yourself, every MP shooter in the top 25 most played games is lag compensated. Even rocketleague (weird sports racing game), Tree of saviour (MMORPG) and DS3 (thirdperson fighting game) is lag compensated.
In the top 50 still all shooters are lag compensated.
In the top 75, still all shooters are lag compensated
Top 100, still true
top 125, still true
The FIRST un lag compensated commes in at no. 134, red orchestra 2.
But there are some reports that the game does use lag compensation. When I played on release, it didn't. I might try it again to confirm, but I think they use lag compensation up to 200ping, anything else isn't predicted so in a way its abit of a yes/no.
On the first page, the only unlag compensated MP games is SMITE, DOTA 2, and maybe terraria.
I dont want to have to list all the games because Im pretty sure you can see for yourself, every MP shooter in the top 25 most played games is lag compensated. Even rocketleague (weird sports racing game), Tree of saviour (MMORPG) and DS3 (thirdperson fighting game) is lag compensated.
In the top 50 still all shooters are lag compensated.
In the top 75, still all shooters are lag compensated
Top 100, still true
top 125, still true
The FIRST un lag compensated commes in at no. 134, red orchestra 2.
But there are some reports that the game does use lag compensation. When I played on release, it didn't. I might try it again to confirm, but I think they use lag compensation up to 200ping, anything else isn't predicted so in a way its abit of a yes/no.
We can keep going if I must, but I think the point is made clear enough I hope.
Unless you consider Hawken an RTS, it should have lag comp.
You can put all that work into explaining your point, and one or two sentences can make it all for not. Interesting video though in your previous post.
When I play on European servers my ping is like 120-200 and I can still hit my targets most of the time.. Yes I'm less accurate than on us servers but I can still hold my own and play decently and enjoy myself.
How about you just get good? Then you won't need lag comp, you filthy peasant c:
I'm no longer taking anything you say seriously; you're ridiculous. I can only hope others follow suit.
Edited by PsychedelicGrass, 07 June 2016 - 08:08 PM.
What's the big fuzzy bunnyng deal? Lots of amazing people have committed suicide, and they turned out alright.
When I play on European servers my ping is like 120-200 and I can still hit my targets most of the time.. Yes I'm less accurate than on us servers but I can still hold my own and play decently and enjoy myself.
How about you just get good? Then you won't need lag comp, you filthy peasant c:
I'm no longer taking anything you say seriously; you're ridiculous. I can only hope others follow suit.
way to completely miss the point about the playebase issue.
You can put all that work into explaining your point, and one or two sentences can make it all for not. Interesting video though in your previous post.
Generally, any time a person dismisses everything you've put all that time and effort into because.. pick a reason; doesn't mesh with their opinion, because general consensus among the popular Hawken elite says otherwise, you are apparently angry resulting in your judgment being impaired, you're too negative, because Obama, because Trump, Bush did it, Gore invented it first, a single sentence gets cherry picked out of your post, misquoted and used to draw you in on a tangent discussion.. does it ever matter on the Internet?
Don't get me wrong, I'm not disagreeing with what you posted, I just don't see anything to gain from putting much effort into proving anything to what little is left of the Hawken community these days. The ADH/meteor train wreck was a good show, watching the smoldering remains waiting to see what Reloaded does with it, it's like watching paint dry.
Lag compensation, I'd think it'd be a good thing, and is probably sitting in the bucket of things that Reloaded is "open to", and may one day get around to working on. Eventually... maybe.. if they don't end up killing Hawken with silence (only ~70 people actually in a server right now according to herokuapp, that's *** poor near dead for a world-wide count of people playing Hawken...)
Local servers dont solve anything, especially with a peak of 250 players, most which reside in NA and EU, its pointless to expect players in dead regions to find games like in Oceanic and Asia. The only regions that matter is NA and EU for dead games.
Asia isn't a dead region, are you sure you aren't going on the server when its 3am for them?
Australia isn't a dead region, we have set times when we go on to play games.
Well, I'm not sure whether is against the forum rules (sry where can I read them?) but what about writing here the nicknames that you have in Overwatch?
Mine is SzoszM8 and I play after 10pm. My kids play under the same name and we are all noobs.
Don't worry about hawken's netcode dirtygorbachov, you don't even play this game.
Overwatch is a casual game for casuals to play casually.
It works very hard to elevate people who are bad or new to shooters to the illusion of competence.
"Lag compensation" doesn't count for much when you have characters with straight up aimbot/aimlock special abilities, and a complete lack of consistency between character's persistent physics parameters.
As a fair contest of fps skill, it's dog vomit.
It's small wonder the pack is lapping it up.
EOC Raider, Bolt Pred, Rev Gl Gren, EOC Infil, All the Reapers, Father, Expert in Guitar Kung Fu, and Founder of TPG Hawken
To be clear though, I don't think anyone has said that lag compensation is something that Hawken doesn't need, only that it is not the only thing or the most important thing. Honestly I'm not convinced Hawken has no lag comp at all whatsoever anyway. The server experience has varied so much even since the last time anything was done to the game that it really is hard to tell.
All the games you mentioned are backed by AAA sized publishers and the resulting marketing. To say that lag compensation is the single reason for that is to ignore a whole battery of variables.
To be clear again: the only problem I (and it seems many of the people in this thread) have with your original post is the assertion that adding (or perhaps improving) lag compensation in Hawken will, in and of itself, increase the user base. The idea that simply changing the netcode will somehow wipe away 3+ years of people assuming Hawken is a dead, broken, unbalanced, and pay-to-win mech shooter is a bit simplistic.
On the topic of all this, I can say that in quite a few instances but not a recent thing I've noticed; is that sometimes in a game the ping seems to fluctuate when players join or leave. I'm not talking for a few moments: I'm talking about my or others' ping's going up a little or down a little and then leveling out after players enter or leave the game.
My connection is super stable right now, and sometimes for no reason my ping at any given time in a region on any given day will vary by a bit. This is never more than 15~30 or so ping so I often don't pay it any attention.
A third thing that I have run into, is sometimes when I first spawn into a match before the shields go down around the spawns I will have a pretty normal ping for my distance (being in alsaka). I usually hit tab at the start of every match to see team comp and such. Unfortunately on these few occasions I see my ping slowly skyrocket up: and when this happens it always levels out at a number higher than 200. Iv'e been in teamspeak with members here and they've also seen it. I don't know if any of you remember this, and I also don't know if anyone else here has noticed these very slight (for the most part) changes in ping.
Might be worth testing and doing some in-game simulations with players from outside the US to try to find patterns and see if we can figure out if it's in fact a form of equalizer or compensation. (This is assuming I'm a test dummy because I brought it up and thus possibly the only person interested. Not trying to single regions out or anything)