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Fix collision on maps (and remove the superglue if possible), and other stuff

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#1
-Tj-

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Pin this one up there with the all-time irritations I have with this game: map collision. It's not so much the stuff that looks like it should block you, it's the stuff that blocks you when there's absolutely nothing there to block you.

 

First one that comes to mind: on Front Line, if you're standing on the AA, facing the side with the two jump pads, near the pad on the left there's some kind of invisible collision there that makes it so you can't move in a certain direction. It's probably a tiny little bit of collision from a piece of kitbashed level asset that's causing mechs to hitch on this, but it never got fixed and I can't understand why.

 

There's also tons of places on Last Eco and Bunker that make movement extremely annoying. Near the base of the lower rock around Pride Rock, you can't walk up one side but you can on the other. Near the back on the upper area by the pyramid, same thing. There's also all those smaller boulders all over the place where you get stuck and can't move, and die amazingly dumb deaths because the level decided it didn't want you to move, period. Bunker has a lot of these spots, too, where the hills are just ever-so-slightly steeper than the game engine seems to allow walking up, and you have to do a micro hop to get over it.

 

There are also some areas like this on Uptown and Origin as well. All these little places where you can get easily stuck and you never know why. One spot up on the top of Uptown, you can't walk over if you're an A class, but you can boost over it (it's on the bridge, near the hallway side).

 

In addition to this, the "superglue" walls never went away. The previous devs mentioned this was something to do with Unreal Engine 3, not something they could fix. I remain unconvinced, considering UT3 never had such issues.

 

One last thing, regarding the starting barriers and climb spots: can we fix these? On one side of Uptown, it's really easy to get out of the starting area, and all it would really take is to raise the height of the start barrier. Climb spots, I don't really see why some of them were blocked off in the first place. It used to take a while to get up to these spots, and once up there it you weren't really of much help to your team. It's one thing if it's a sniping spot and it's really easy to get up, it's another when it's just a part of a building that you can already kinda get up on top of. Verticality in maps makes them interesting, imo (like Origin) and making them flat makes them a bit boring (Bunker).

 

All this stuff should be after other, more pressing stuff is fixed, of course. These are just things I think need to be fixed eventually.

 

Edit: regarding climbing spots, I don't really mean the ones that let you get out of the map and hide indefinitely, I mean the ones that let you get a little higher up but don't really have any cover. Prosk used to have a lot of these, and Front Line has a lot of areas where the verticality of certain buildings would make some battles a lot more interesting. The blocking off of certain areas in Origin and Last Eco didn't make sense to me when they were introduced, and I think they should be removed. Maybe I'll start editing some maps whenever I find an area of bad collision so at least we have some kind of record.


Edited by -Tj-, 04 May 2015 - 09:37 PM.

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#2
Derpy Hooves

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They claimed the superglue walls couldn't be fixed, and that it was a part of UE3, because to be quite blunt. They were relying completely on Scaleform (a derivitive of Autodesk), to design the maps for them. A ton of games that were designed with Scaleform are a victim of this, because Scaleform is complete crap. It can be fixed quite quickly and easily, ADH just never gave a dam they were still making money so it wasn't their problem. What the real problem with the maps are, is Scaleform/Autodesk overprovisioned the collision boxes for everything except the mechs. This is easily seen with Uptown and how you clip through the floor in the scisor back ramp section, scaleform put the collision floor well under where it placed the textures. Again this is from using the generic Game Dev mode of Scaleform it optimizes everything for human height, and obviously the mechs are far taller than human height. Using the newest UE3 SDK to preview the maps in an editor view, some collision boxes are spot on, other are overprovisioned by 200px (hence invisible walls/objects we get stuck on) in rare instances like the pride rock area, it's overprovisioned by 500px which is needless to say the entire width of an A class mech.


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#3
n3onfx

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There's also this spot on Facility, near the highest point of the map (where the jumpad from the tunnels to the top platform is) on the left side when facing the center of the map and right where you can look down into the pit with the central pillar. 

 

This spot;

Spoiler

 

Well in that spot you can actually get stuck in the floor, happens more easily with A class it seems.


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#4
Neraste

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Completely agree!

 

But what bothers me more than invisible collisions, is when a contact of 1 cm² with some blocking element immobilizes your entire mech. I don't know how physics of solids is handled in UE3, but according to dynamics, torque should make your mech to rotate in this case.

 

What?

 

Say my mech is touching a wall on its right corner. If I want to move forward, I will turn around the collision point. But currently, the wall stops my mech completely.

 

w2cPubD.png

 

Can this sort of thing be fixed?


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#5
PepeKenobi

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If the game's engine allows some kind of mini bouncing effect for when your mech colides against walls (and probably other heavy stuff on a map? ) then the issue might be pretty alleviated, IMHO...



#6
spinningchurro

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This needs a sticky.



#7
Grollourdo

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Oh tj I feel how you feel when you try to dodge and get stuck.... Ahhhhh XD lol

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#8
Derpy Hooves

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Completely agree!

 

But what bothers me more than invisible collisions, is when a contact of 1 cm² with some blocking element immobilizes your entire mech. I don't know how physics of solids is handled in UE3, but according to dynamics, torque should make your mech to rotate in this case.

 

What?

 

Say my mech is touching a wall on its right corner. If I want to move forward, I will turn around the collision point. But currently, the wall stops my mech completely.

 

w2cPubD.png

 

Can this sort of thing be fixed?

That's because all UE3 has is collision detection, and Apex (software physics), doesn't have things for lateral/vertical momentum or, torque. Since adding such things onto Apex would slow the client down severely even on the mightiest of Intel's Xeon processors since Apex in itself is pure shite, and should be replaced with software PhysX.

 

The way Apex works is movement is either a 1 or a 0, on or off. In the case of collision detection UE3 reports to Apex "vertices at (blank) X and (blank) Y coordinates have made a collision, stop forward movement. All Apex is there to do for movement is to stall walk/run animations during a collision event.

 

Now however what your proposing can be done in PhysX as opposed to Apex, however calculations would be moderately slow on non Nvidia GPU based systems since PhysX would be running in Software Mode instead of Hardware Mode.


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#9
n3onfx

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Spoiler

 

Since you seem to be knowledgeable on the matter, would making the walls more "slippy" be possible in UE3 and Apex? As in collision still happens but pushes the mech away a bit in the opposite direction.


Edited by n3onfx, 05 May 2015 - 01:04 AM.

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#10
Houruck

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Since you seem to be knowledgeable on the matter, would making the walls more "slippy" be possible in UE3 and Apex? As in collision still happens but pushes the mech away a bit in the opposite direction.

Just do not make something that Postal 2 has. It can detect that you are stuck and it will try to throw you somewhere it thinks you came from.


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#11
Derpy Hooves

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Since you seem to be knowledgeable on the matter, would making the walls more "slippy" be possible in UE3 and Apex? As in collision still happens but pushes the mech away a bit in the opposite direction.

 

It can be done but it's difficult to do, plus the amount of resources it would require are unknown.

 

Just do not make something that Postal 2 has. It can detect that you are stuck and it will try to throw you somewhere it thinks you came from.

 

Yeah but in an online environment that can cause a lot of placement issues and eventually lead to rubberbanding.
 


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#12
crockrocket

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Relevant


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#13
Neraste

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Now however what your proposing can be done in PhysX as opposed to Apex, however calculations would be moderately slow on non Nvidia GPU based systems since PhysX would be running in Software Mode instead of Hardware Mode.

 

I don't know how PhysicX works and handles it, but amount of computations can be cut down using assumptions: torque calculated in z direction only, leading to one scalar equation, movement already known, constant moment of inertia...


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#14
Derpy Hooves

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I don't know how PhysicX works and handles it, but amount of computations can be cut down using assumptions: torque calculated in z direction only, leading to one scalar equation, movement already known, constant moment of inertia...

It can be but, again your limited to CPU speed for software PhysX vs GPU for hardware PhysX. Even a good Xeon E5 averages around 25~30fps during heavy fluid simulations in software mode. The only reason why hardware PhysX is perfered is due to the nature of PhysX when Aegia released the API in 2005, it's heavily paralell processing based, and that's the type of work load GPUs excell at the most. Where as CPUs are alright but not great, their strong point is sequential tasks.


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#15
JeffMagnum

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I hope they fix pieces of the map not showing up on lower graphics settings too. I get ~100 FPS on maxed settings but prefer playing on ultra textures/low graphics with a few tweaks due to there being less in the way of aiming, and I always run into dumb fuzzy bunny like this:

 

 

Granted, most of the invisible objects aren't that big and in a spot that constantly gets kited around, but it's still irritating. 


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#16
Derpy Hooves

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I hope they fix pieces of the map not showing up on lower graphics settings too. I get ~100 FPS on maxed settings but prefer playing on ultra textures/low graphics with a few tweaks due to there being less in the way of aiming, and I always run into dumb fuzzy bunny like this:

 

Granted, most of the invisible objects aren't that big and in a spot that constantly gets kited around, but it's still irritating. 

There would need to be seperate pipeless models made for something like that to happen. Granted it'd be an easy fix but the pipes are still "there" regardless of texture/graphics settings due to that being the way the model is designed.


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#17
Houruck

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Yeah but in an online environment that can cause a lot of placement issues and eventually lead to rubberbanding.

This is why I said DO NOT.

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#18
Derpy Hooves

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This is why I said DO NOT.

Well it could technically work, if peer to server bandwidth was high enough. Probably a minimum of 3MB/s upload, since Battlefield Hardline has something similiar to Postal's system but EA recommends to have 2.5MB/s upstream speed.


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#19
JeffMagnum

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Granted it'd be an easy fix but the pipes are still "there" regardless of texture/graphics settings due to that being the way the model is designed.

 

Well yeah, I know they still exist regardless of whether or not they're being visually represented. It's just really sloppy to not have anything show up, especially considering they're so conspicuous and in a relatively important part of the map that constantly gets fought around. 


Edited by JeffMagnum, 06 May 2015 - 01:56 AM.

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#20
Derpy Hooves

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Well yeah, I know they still exist regardless of whether or not they're being visually represented. It's just really sloppy to not have anything show up, especially considering they're so conspicuous and in a relatively important part of the map that constantly gets fought around. 

It'd take all of maybe 10 min, to remove the pipes, slap a new asset label on it, and configure it to load on settings that remove the pipe texture. Then treat it as a toggle-able asset for graphics quality dependant settings.


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#21
Grollourdo

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Arnt all of those collision stuff just map finishing problems? Why not just reedit the map?

Just askin XD

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#22
bacon_avenger

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Arnt all of those collision stuff just map finishing problems? Why not just reedit the map?

Just askin XD

Funny you should say this...
 
A few days ago, I was chatting with Tiggs in IRC, and mentioned that MTR seemed to suffer from the 'not invented here' syndrome...
 
From  http://en.wikipedia....t_invented_here :
 

Not invented here (NIH) is the philosophical principle of not using third party solutions to a problem because of their external origins. It is usually employed in favor of employer's own solution to a given problem, though not necessarily so; NIH's emphasis is on ignoring, boycotting, or otherwise refusing to acknowledge solutions by others.

To this, I was told that we wouldn't find that with her or Josh.

 

So, knowing this, if someone has the necessary software to fix the maps, do so!  Upload the fixed version to google drive, dropbox, what-have-you and let them know!

 

If it's possible to put them in a private server for testing, I'm sure someone will do so!  We have a lot of talented people in here who have made some amazing mock ups for HUD's and such, so why not?


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#23
Grollourdo

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Funny you should say this...

A few days ago, I was chatting with Tiggs in IRC, and mentioned that MTR seemed to suffer from the 'not invented here' syndrome...

From http://en.wikipedia....t_invented_here :

To this, I was told that we wouldn't find that with her or Josh.

So, knowing this, if someone has the necessary software to fix the maps, do so! Upload the fixed version to google drive, dropbox, what-have-you and let them know!

If it's possible to put them in a private server for testing, I'm sure someone will do so! We have a lot of talented people in here who have made some amazing mock ups for HUD's and such, so why not?


Ooohhhhh I get it now XD

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#24
Derpy Hooves

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Funny you should say this...
 
A few days ago, I was chatting with Tiggs in IRC, and mentioned that MTR seemed to suffer from the 'not invented here' syndrome...
 
From  http://en.wikipedia....t_invented_here :
 

To this, I was told that we wouldn't find that with her or Josh.

 

So, knowing this, if someone has the necessary software to fix the maps, do so!  Upload the fixed version to google drive, dropbox, what-have-you and let them know!

 

If it's possible to put them in a private server for testing, I'm sure someone will do so!  We have a lot of talented people in here who have made some amazing mock ups for HUD's and such, so why not?

With everything "wrong' with the maps, collsion detection wise, it would take way more than just one person. I've seen some bad maps in my day (UT2k4/UT3 map builder), but what you got here would take months of rework.

 

Plus we'd have to by US law, have written permission from the devs to do it (copyright crap), as well as access to Hawken's map editor since some elements don't load properly in the UE3 SDK. Maps you don't think have a lot of problems actually have loads, take Bunker for example, people may have noticed 5 or 6, but there's really around 30 or more un-needed collsion points in open field and around another 10 near the little bunkers themselves. The open field ones are hard to spot due to the excessive use of white, but once in wireframe those points stand out.


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#25
Grollourdo

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With everything "wrong' with the maps, collsion detection wise, it would take way more than just one person. I've seen some bad maps in my day (UT2k4/UT3 map builder), but what you got here would take months of rework.
 
Plus we'd have to by US law, have written permission from the devs to do it (copyright crap), as well as access to Hawken's map editor since some elements don't load properly in the UE3 SDK. Maps you don't think have a lot of problems actually have loads, take Bunker for example, people may have noticed 5 or 6, but there's really around 30 or more un-needed collsion points in open field and around another 10 near the little bunkers themselves. The open field ones are hard to spot due to the excessive use of white, but once in wireframe those points stand out.


Well ... There goes one suggestion down the drain....

So what could we do?

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#26
CounterlogicMan

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Well ... There goes one suggestion down the drain....

So what could we do?

 

Wait until Reloaded either 1. Releases a map editor for Hawken. 2. Reloaded hires someone/some people to do it 

 

I for one, and I am sure many in the community feel this way, would really like a reedit of the maps. Changing some problematic spots in terms of collisions and balance.


Edited by CounterlogicMan, 07 May 2015 - 06:15 AM.

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#27
PepeKenobi

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maybe is all about defining a "couple of properties" or maybe not....



#28
Derpy Hooves

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Well ... There goes one suggestion down the drain....

So what could we do?

I'd love to jump into it but it's way to much for one person to do alone plus I personally don't have the time, But laws in this country won't permit me to do so without their expressed consent or for anyone else to take up the project unless they hire someone to do it.


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#29
bacon_avenger

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I'd love to jump into it but it's way to much for one person to do alone plus I personally don't have the time, But laws in this country won't permit me to do so without their expressed consent or for anyone else to take up the project unless they hire someone to do it.

While technically true, I highly doubt that Reloaded would object as long as you aren't distributing the end result with instructions on how to use them outside of the official servers/channels.


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#30
Derpy Hooves

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While technically true, I highly doubt that Reloaded would object as long as you aren't distributing the end result with instructions on how to use them outside of the official servers/channels.

true, but still we all know how fast the copyright hounds would be on us for doing it. They're often times far worse than lawyers.


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#31
bacon_avenger

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true, but still we all know how fast the copyright hounds would be on us for doing it. They're often times far worse than lawyers.

Actually, we don't.  Unless you have something publicly viewable about how fast Reloaded/G1 has released the Hounds Of War ™ on someone who cleaned up a map for another of their games or made a 3D model of something that isn't already the IP of someone else?  They aren't The Mouse after all, and since it would be working with Hawken specific assets for Hawken... :smile:

 

I'm just saying that Reloaded doesn't have an objection to us, the community, making things that might be a good addition to the game and are not against using them if they can and the creator is OK with it.

 

So if someone is able to fix up the maps, create a 3D model of a laila bobble head for an in-game cosmetic, go nuts and present it to Tiggs and/or Josh and see what they say.

 

EDIT:  Unless I totally misread and misunderstood what Tiggs was saying, in which case I would expect her to jump in and correct me. :tongue:


Edited by bacon_avenger, 08 May 2015 - 03:41 AM.

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#32
Derpy Hooves

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Actually, we don't.  Unless you have something publicly viewable about how fast Reloaded/G1 has released the Hounds Of War ™ on someone who cleaned up a map for another of their games or made a 3D model of something that isn't already the IP of someone else?  They aren't The Mouse after all, and since it would be working with Hawken specific assets for Hawken... :smile:

 

I'm just saying that Reloaded doesn't have an objection to us, the community, making things that might be a good addition to the game and are not against using them if they can and the creator is OK with it.

 

So if someone is able to fix up the maps, create a 3D model of a laila bobble head for an in-game cosmetic, go nuts and present it to Tiggs and/or Josh and see what they say.

 

EDIT:  Unless I totally misread and misunderstood what Tiggs was saying, in which case I would expect her to jump in and correct me. :tongue:

Theres a 3 letter agency that'll fire off warnings for them CAS or Copyright Alerts System.


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#33
bacon_avenger

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Theres a 3 letter agency that'll fire off warnings for them CAS or Copyright Alerts System.

http://en.wikipedia....ht_Alert_System

 


A review of MarkMonitor's system for the CAS stated that only uploads are monitored, with infringement being suspected when MarkMonitor's BitTorrent client successfully obtains pieces of known-infringing content from a peer in the swarm.[11] The pieces are compared to pieces from an already-downloaded copy of the content, which has already been matched to content samples supplied by the copyright owners.[11]

 

Honestly, it sounds like you are buying into FUD in regards to copyright.  The CAS depends on the infringing content being an already known quantity, as well as being transmitted in a snoop-able data-stream (opportunistic encryption FTW).

 

I agree that the assets are the IP of Reloaded (and perhaps G1 as well), and therefore are covered under their respective copyrights, which does make it technically illegal to do anything with them.  However, I highly doubt that anyone who makes the effort to fix things like maps for Hawken is going to get slapped with a CAD (Cease and Desist) notice from anyone, especially after my discussion with Tiggs on IRC.

 

As I read it, most game companies will let things slide as long as the person working with the assets are not making money from the work.  If the landscape was as black and white as you are inferring, a heck of a lot of the mod authors of various games like Skyrim would have been hit with CAD notices a long time ago.


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#34
MechFighter5e3bf9

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yeah get rid of full bounding collision on the meshes and slide in some unreal engine oldschool bsp collision zones to solve this and improve performance as a cube is much easier than a custom mesh






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