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Ramifications of Universal Air Dodge: Objective View

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#41
IareDave

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@IareDave, you're suggesting that airborne maneuvers aren't anything special by comparing it directly to orblording.

Re-read everything I posted if you want to clarify your interpretation mistake. All I have done is state the MANY tradeoffs that everyone who complains about the air compressor seems to miss. Orblording was merely one example of many I have as to why the air compressor isn't as powerful as many people on this forum - who seem to lack the ability to hit air targets - believe it to be.


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#42
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I don't believe making the ac universal will drastically change where combat takes place. What dictates the elevation of encounters is largely dependant on fuel reserves. I have doubles with ground and air builds for most of my mechs; they are still most effective at the same altitudes, but the ac adds an extra layer of mobility and allows for seemless transitions for less predictable patterns and steps.

#43
moosa17

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Orblording was merely one example of many

 

It was the one I choose to address. 

Here's what arguments you've made:

-Air dodging takes a lot of fuel
-Being in the air prevents you from abusing orbs / air stuff doesn't seem strong compared to orb builds
-You can't chase or run (while in the air)
-You don't personally find it hard to hit airborne targets

 

You seem to be approaching this as if people think the air compressor is too strong, and yet this thread is about something else.


Edited by moosa17, 04 April 2015 - 08:31 PM.


#44
BaronSaturday

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Hey guys,

 

Here are my thoughts on why making air dodging universal without changing how it works might be not as good an idea as some people seem to think.

 

(CQC = close quarters combat)

 

 

1. Some weapons will become obsolete

 

1.1 Hellfires

 

Dodging HFs unscathed on the ground is an advanced, hard-to-pull-off manoeuvre. This is due to their considerable splash radius and peculiar homing algorithm. Dodging HFs in the air, however, is an easy task, as you don't have to worry about the splash, and the homing is just not enough to cut it. For this reason, the time frame for dodging HFs in the air is almost double that on the ground. Thus, in my opinion, making air dodging universal will considerably weaken this weapon, to the point where people will be using it much less often.

 

1.2 EOC and EOC-P

 

Even high-tier players will find it hard to land a high percentage of their pucks on air-dodgers, let alone low- and mid-tier players. It might not be a huge problem in CQC, but in mid-range combat your pucks will likely miss half the time, or more. Making air dodging universal will make these two weapons weaker as well.

 

1.3. Heat Cannon

 

It is possible to land a decent percentage of Heat shots on air-dodgers, but that is only either with charged shots or in CQC. However, charged shots have lower dps, and CQC is not always an option (and it can be evaded by the air-dodger; more on that later). In addition, you won't be able to capitalize on the weapon's large splash radius, except when your opponent flies near a wall or some other map structure, which he can avoid doing.

 

1.4 Rev-GL

 

Landing Rev grenades on an air-dodger takes a lot of skill even in CQC, but doing so consistently outside of point-blank combat is nearly impossible. In my opinion, this weapon will suffer the most from introducing universal air dodging.

 

1.5  Redox

 

Low projectile speed + low damage = almost useless against an air-dodger. Although the tech shouldn't be an attacker in the first place, so it doesn't matter much >:)

 

1.6 Grenade Launcher

 

Because grenades have a low projectile speed, an air-dodger, given a somewhat decent ping, can dodge away unscathed from an incoming grenade, starting at a certain distance that depends on your ping and reaction time. This is a huge problem outside of CQC, because you do have enough time to dodge away most of the time. In point-blank combat it is also a problem, because GL's minimum detonation time is longer than that of the TOW, which means your opponent will have a bit more time to dodge away from your shot or otherwise evade it. Now, the same applies for ground combat, but there is one difference: it is much more difficult to utilize the grenade's bounce against a flying air-dodger, and without the bounce, the Grenade Launcher, even with its large blast radius, is strictly worse than the TOW.

 

1.7 Corsair KLA

 

The grenade mode will suffer due to more flying going on in the game. Hitting flying targets with a KLA grenade is quite a challenge. And again, it will be much more difficult to take advantage of the weapon's large splash radius.

 

1.8 Seeker

 

Conversely, the Seeker will become stronger, because its cooldown is shorter than the dodge cooldown, meaning that you'll be able to dependably hit a good percentage of your seekers. The weapon is quite strong (a quite annoying, frankly) as it is, and making it stronger will make things worse.

 

 

2. Hitscan/TOW meta

 

As you might have noticed, all of the aforementioned weapons are projectile. And all of them, save for the Seeker, will suffer from making air dodging universal. As I see it, air combat will become much more widespread (because there are so few drawbacks to going airborne; more on this later), and this will lead to players — especially low- and mid-tier ones — massively favor hitscan weapons and the fast-travelling, easy-to-use TOW. This will create an array of new balance problems.

 

Now you can say, "Okay, but you just pointed out that everything's fine in CQC for all these projectile weapons! Why not force CQC?"

 

And the answer is this:

 

1. Forcing CQC is often risky, because you have to boost towards your opponent (walking won't cut it), which makes you visible on the radar for the air-dodger's teammates. You can find yourself in a trap once you get into that CQC you strived for. In addition, forcing CQC takes precious seconds that the air-dodger spends pounding you with lead.

 

2. More often than not, the air-dodger can boost backwards mid-air to make forcing CQC more difficult. If his mech's air speed is low, he can air-dodge backwards. So at the point when you get into CQC, you already have too little armor to win the fight. Right now this is not so much a problem, because the Air Compressor occupies whopping 3 slots that you can use for something that makes you live longer, but it will become a problem should air-dodging become universal.

 

 

3. Flying meta

 

There are really few drawbacks to flying when you can air-dodge. Here are some of the advantages:

 

1. With hitscan, you get immediate advantage against enemies with projectile weapons if you can force mid-range combat (which you will be able to most of the time) for the reasons mentioned above.

 

2. A flying enemy has a better shooting angle against a ground enemy, so why be on the ground?

 

3. You don't care about splash damage of any sort.

 

4. Spamming air-dodge against low-tier to mid-tier players or players with high ping works wonders.

 

5. If you're piloting an SS or reaper, being in the air means you have a better reach to the enemy mechs, but without the drawbacks of flight if you can air-dodge. This is especially noticeable on Bunker.

 

The only drawback I can think of is that by going airborne you make yourself more vulnerable to snipers. The fuel thing is not really problematic because a) fuel converter and b) you can continue dodging even after landing with no fuel left.

 

 

4. Conclusion

 

So what will we get in the end? I think we'll get ourselves a Hawken where hitscan and the TOW heavily dominate the meta and everyone prefers going airborne.

 

 

I will welcome your counterarguments and additional points I might have missed :)

My only response is, So what?  Things will be adjusted by development accordingly until a proper solution is found.  I play a Tech.  The compressor is a must for me.  I have to have it.  Having it for free would be great.  I do have a better solution to all of this though.  Certain mechs get air dodge at the cost of smaller tanks.  Boom.  Problem solved.  Not all mechs get them.  The Scoot should probably have it, I could see the Brawler needing it as it's already slow.  Give ole Fred and not to the Assault. 


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#45
Superkamikazee

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Lol, people posting to remove remote detonate. You're good at the game, we get it. Same applies to the "get better" responses.

And there's plenty of shooters sans ridiculous skill ceilings that are fun, engagin, competive, and have a large player base. Not sure why a mech game needs this infinite skill ceiling to appease a tiny percentage of its player base. I'm not saying make the game easy, but enough with pushing to raise the skill ceiling to infinity.
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#46
LoC_TR

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The whole internal system systems needs a rework. There are so many internals that are basically made useless by the orb lord build. There are just too many variables with how all the mechs are balanced right now to make the AC universal. For example.. I do not pick a air compressor EVER on a Raider, so  having it on there will by default will give me many more options. Whereas on the Zerker if I don't have to pick Air compressor I can pick other things like [insert OP build], or it may weaken a Zerker because if everyone is special no one is special. I don't know.. balance changes to this game have been super finicky, we must be wise in how we proceed. (the royal "we")

 

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#47
shosca

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The whole internal system systems needs a rework. There are so many internals that are basically made useless by the orb lord build. There are just too many variables with how all the mechs are balanced right now to make the AC universal. For example.. I do not pick a air compressor EVER on a Raider, so  having it on there will by default will give me many more options. Whereas on the Zerker if I don't have to pick Air compressor I can pick other things like [insert OP build], or it may weaken a Zerker because if everyone is special no one is special. I don't know.. balance changes to this game have been super finicky, we must be wise in how we proceed. (the royal "we")

 

starsupontharssingle2.jpg?format=500w

 

Yup, whatever is going to be done for balance needs to be done on test servers with a whole ton of analytics on it.



#48
Fstroke

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Your entire post could be interpreted in making the game harder or "raising the skill ceiling as some would say." The weapons you mentioned being impacted the most are also the ones that are the most powerful and rewarding once mastered.

The only one I agree with is the rev-gl but only because I think it had an odd trajectory to begin with and fires off center to your target reticule in all but long range making aiming a bit tedious at times

#49
vonbach

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Air-dodging needs to die in a fire.


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#50
TheButtSatisfier

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Yup, whatever is going to be done for balance needs to be done on test servers with a whole ton of analytics on it.

 

I agree.

 

I'm interested in seeing all mechs have air dodge capability by default, but each dodge takes between 40 and 60 percent of your total fuel unless you have an internal that reduces fuel consumption to existing levels with AC. This way every mech can air dodge once or twice, but the pilot better be sure the air dodge was worth it.

 

I also think a good way to counter airborne mechs would be to have an item that causes little damage but immediately grounds any airborne mech within its radius. I swear I've seen an existing item do that occasionally, but it happens so infrequently I think it's a bug. But whenever it does happen to me, I always think, "Man I wish that was an actual item".


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#51
LoC_TR

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I agree.

 

I'm interested in seeing all mechs have air dodge capability by default, but each dodge takes between 40 and 60 percent of your total fuel unless you have an internal that reduces fuel consumption to existing levels with AC. This way every mech can air dodge once or twice, but the pilot better be sure the air dodge was worth it.

 

I also think a good way to counter airborne mechs would be to have an item that causes little damage but immediately grounds any airborne mech within its radius. I swear I've seen an existing item do that occasionally, but it happens so infrequently I think it's a bug. But whenever it does happen to me, I always think, "Man I wish that was an actual item".

 

 

The MIRV on the Raider acts as a "grounder" If you hit someone in the air with a full MIRV it will rocket them to the ground. The fall damage can actually kill you. 


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#52
ThirdEyE

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The MIRV on the Raider acts as a "grounder" If you hit someone in the air with a full MIRV it will rocket them to the ground. The fall damage can actually kill you. 

We just talked about this all last night, one of the few good things it has going for it.  Don't get me started again on how bad the mirv is...


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#53
CrimsonKaim

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Get good. That is all. 

 

*Equipped Air Compressor*

 

"WOW, I am so much better now!"


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#54
LoC_TR

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We just talked about this all last night, one of the few good things it has going for it. Don't get me started again on how bad the mirv is...


I guess there's also a couple spots on wreckage that could rocket you to the ground.

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#55
DerMax

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Is the reason for people playing mostly sustain assault or zerker or etc.. to counter the air compressor or is it that these combos are way more versatile than all other combos, perhaps even too versatile? Unfortunately we don't have analytics and numbers to measure how well weapons/mechs are doing against each other, but my gut feeling says that the combo is too versatile.

 

Also sorry about the objective/subjective thing, your text mostly contained your opinions about negative aspects of global ac and missed the positive aspects completely.

Actually, it would be nice if you or anyone else compiled the positive aspects of making air-dodging universal. Apart from the "because it raises the skill ceiling" argument, of course.



#56
OdinTheWise

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, but making air-dodging universal would tilt the meta to this side even further.

 

 

is there any thing wrong with this?


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#57
DerMax

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is there any thing wrong with this?

Hitscan/TOW meta? I think so.

 

1. It will, to some extent, discourage players from using other weapons.

 

2. New players, having played with the strongest class in the game as their first mech (Assault), will be frustrated to learn that virtually any other mech is weaker.

 

Although, as it has been pointed out, proper balancing can make things work well even with the universal air dodging. But what tweaks would be required has yet to be analyzed.


Edited by DerMax, 05 April 2015 - 11:58 AM.

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#58
ThirdEyE

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Actually, it would be nice if you or anyone else compiled the positive aspects of making air-dodging universal. Apart from the "because it raises the skill ceiling" argument, of course.

Increases mobility in general, which to me makes the game more fun.  It would free up internal slots so people could be more creative with internal setups, which would be nice if orb lord wasn't such a problem and/or reloaded comes up with more interesting internals.  Most importantly (imo) it would allow new players to use it without having to reach pilot level 21 AND spend lots of HC for each mech they want it on.


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#59
FRX23

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Remove AC, end of problem.


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#60
shosca

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Actually, it would be nice if you or anyone else compiled the positive aspects of making air-dodging universal. Apart from the "because it raises the skill ceiling" argument, of course.

 

Why should I? You're the one who's claiming things in your wall of text, so prove it. lel :P


Edited by shosca, 05 April 2015 - 01:26 PM.


#61
Sylhiri

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Increases mobility in general, which to me makes the game more fun.  It would free up internal slots so people could be more creative with internal setups, which would be nice if orb lord wasn't such a problem and/or reloaded comes up with more interesting internals.  Most importantly (imo) it would allow new players to use it without having to reach pilot level 21 AND spend lots of HC for each mech they want it on.

 

Hopefully they would come up with some more useful internals. Right now it's basically the same problem with items, few are so overwhelmingly better that you would be at a disadvantage if you didn't use them against someone that does.



#62
AsianJoyKiller

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Though I support universal AC, I'm just going to go ahead and say this. Hawken's air combat is just about the worst I've come across in any shooter. It's clunky, weird, gimmicky, and bizarrely limited. It feels tacked on, which it was.

If Reloaded felt like put the time and resources into it, I would suggest they should just remove the AC entirely and rework how flying works in Hawken into something that feels more natural.


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#63
shosca

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Hopefully they would come up with some more useful internals. Right now it's basically the same problem with items, few are so overwhelmingly better that you would be at a disadvantage if you didn't use them against someone that does.

 

Yea, the current item/internals certainly feels like the cookie cutter ascension builds, maybe not to the same effect but, either you do it or...



#64
RedVan

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Actually, it would be nice if you or anyone else compiled the positive aspects of making air-dodging universal. Apart from the "because it raises the skill ceiling" argument, of course.

 

Well, raising the skill ceiling makes the game more fun imo, so that's good enough reason for me lol

 

It makes jumping into the air a little less stupid.  See:


Taking to the air has always been a risk vs reward thing. Attacking from the higher ground has always been an advantage, which I understand it, in Hawken was supposed to be balanced out by being an easier target.

 

Yes, it is a risk vs reward thing, and it still will be.  Attacking from higher ground is an advantage blown incredibly out of proportion.  Yeah, it's nice, but you're also painting a huge target on your head.  Even with universal air dodge, you'll still have that target.  Currently getting airborne is the stupidest thing you can do in hawken.  Remember the days when turret mode wrote "I'm a noob that knows nothing" all over?  It's like that.  You jet into the air, any competent player laughs, calls you "cute", then destroys you.  Universal air dodge just makes it so that doesn't happen so fast.

 

Yes, it does use a lot of fuel to go airborne and air dodge, potentially leaving the attacked at a disadvantage when landing.  However, I do not believe this is enough to counter the large advantage an AC using mech has for the few seconds it's airborne, and you know as well as I do that with the current TTK, those handful of seconds can and often does make the difference in an engagement. 

 

Like I said, the advantage of being airborne is blown way out of proportion.

 

But most importantly, it opens up tactical options, thus making the game more interesting overall.  When you limit combat to the ground, your tactics are limited as such.  As you increase the Z aspect, so too, tactical options increase.  Think of a cube, if you just fill it with enough water to cover the ground, you don't have much water.  But if you fill it up all the way, there's a lot more water :)  Right now we have a bunch of unused air above us just asking for something interesting to happen in it.

 

Just those off the top of my head for now.



#65
VYR3

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Hey guys,

 

 

1. Some weapons will become obsolete

 

1.1 Hellfires

 

congrats, now I'm in favour of universal AD.

 

I love the idea of making skill-less weapons obsolete and shitty.

 

as for the others, they arent gonna be made obsolete at all. heatcannon fully charged is near hitscan, EOC P is easy to use against flying targets if you can aim, and EOC would just be slightly harder to use, but if they made it a single puck launched from a tap fire then it would be fine.



#66
Superkamikazee

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congrats, now I'm in favour of universal AD.

 

I love the idea of making skill-less weapons obsolete and shitty.

 

as for the others, they arent gonna be made obsolete at all. heatcannon fully charged is near hitscan, EOC P is easy to use against flying targets if you can aim, and EOC would just be slightly harder to use, but if they made it a single puck launched from a tap fire then it would be fine.

 

That's very short sighted.


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