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defense stacking diminishing returns

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#1
Acguy

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Hopefully this isn't also old news like my last thread.

 

It's easiest to show what I found by just posting the data, which was taken by shooting myself while boosting with the raider;

 

no parts, net 0% reduction bonus: 0% of damage removed

b. deflectors, net 10% reduction: 10% of damage removed

deflectors, net 20% reduction: 20% of damage removed

b. fail + b. def, net 30% reduction; 28% damage removed
failsafe, net 40% reduction; 40% damage removed
failsafe + b. def, net 50% reduction; 46% damage removed
failsafe + deflectors, net 60% reduction; 52% damage removed
 
the first thing to notice is that, the more reduction you add, the further your actual value deviates from your expected value
 
the second thing to notice is that, for some reason, this doesn't affect my trial with just a failsafe even though it has more reduction than the prior, which was reduced
 
across the board, only trials with multiple parts equipped at once were effected
 
a gold star for someone who can produce a mathematical model to explain this. Note that a failsafe will still block the full 40% if you have deflectors equipped and aren't boosting, the downscaling only kicks in when multiple parts are actually active, not just equipped.
 
---
 
EDIT; figured it out because of that last sentence I wrote, I get a gold star even though someone probably already knew this.
 
What the game is doing is applying one bonus, reducing the damage, then applying the next bonus to the already-reduced damage for some reason instead of applying them all in one fell swoop.
 
Inventively you'd think a 40% bonus + a 20% bonus means DamageTaken=DamageGiven*(1-0.4-0.2)=DamageGiven*0.4, aka you only take 40% of the damage given because you blocked 60%. 
 
When you don't do it all at once you get DamageTaken=[DamageGiven*(1-0.4)]*(1-0.2)=DamageGiven*0.48, aka you take 48% of the damage, which lines up with the prior measurement where 52% was removed with both a failsafe and a pair of deflectors.
 
Basically you reduce the incoming damage by 40, then take that new reduced damage, and in turn reduce THAT by 20, instead of reducing the initial damage by 60. If you do the 20 first and the 40 second nothing changes (you can just remove the parenthesis in the equation I wrote), but either way it's a lot less than a 60% reduction. 
 
What this means in a nutshell is that if I had 2 parts which decreased the incoming damage by 10% equipped at the same time, or if I had one 15% and one 5% part stacked together, they would be less effective than one part which decreases the incoming damage by 20%. 
 
---
 
Nevermind, that's wrong. I bolded the part that shows it's wrong. Removing 48% =/= taking 48%. However it lines up when you use 0.4 and 0.1, I might have just written my last trial down improperly. Gonna go check that.
 
Nevermind, that's right! My third trial was written as 48% instead of 52% at first because I flipped it around by accident. I've since fixed it and the math works properly. (1-0.4-0.2)=0.4, 40% taken/60% blocked, whereas (1-0.4)*(1-0.2)=0.48, 48% taken/52% blocked. All you need to read is the stuff written above the last "---" I left.

Edited by Acguy, 22 December 2016 - 11:37 PM.

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#2
ArchMech

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wouldnt matter,

most of those would end up as a fraction of a point of damage and would just make things unnecessarily complex/not be counted/get rounded anyway and would need to be so drastic that it may throw things out of balance instantly and possibly forever (see ascension changes  for reference) 

 

DR is needed in instances where most of or some of the following is true

when % values stack up close to to 90%+ range

affect values upwards of 1000

in games with linear level progression in the range of 50-100 "levels"

aka, mmorpgs with some exceptions

 

and specifically NOT in:

games with a generally speaking ALREADY stable/balanced baseline (IE not COMPLETELY imbalanced across the entire board for any little reason, see orblord for reference....)

 

and specifically FOR:

orblord(?) (depends on if you count the change to orblording where you only get 1 orb heal rate as DR, a technicality really) 


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#3
JeffMagnum

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As far as I know it's just standard multiplicative stacking: final=1-(1-x)*(1-y) e.g. 1-(1-.1)*(1-.2)=.28 for Basic Deflectors and Basic Failsafe.

Are you sure you were getting the full amount of damage with Failsafe+Deflectors though? It should hypothetically be a 52% reduction which is also what I got when I was doing Fuel Converter tests earlier.

Edited by JeffMagnum, 22 December 2016 - 11:33 PM.

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#4
Acguy

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most of those would end up as a fraction of a point of damage and would just make things unnecessarily complex 

 

how is DamageGiven*(1-0.2-0.4) more complex than DamageGiven*(1-0.2)*(1-.04)? It's literally less to type. This doesn't directly have anything to do with orb lording either, and as it stands the extractor and repair kit already directly stack your consumption rate. a 15% extractor plus a 15% repair kit gives you exactly 30% faster healing, whereas two pieces of 15% composite armor would theoretically only give you 27.75% more defense instead of 30%.

 

As far as I know it's just standard multiplicative stacking: final=1-(1-x)*(1-y) e.g. 1-(1-.1)*(1-.2)=.28 for Basic Deflectors and Basic Failsafe.

Are you sure you were getting the full amount of damage with Failsafe+Deflectors though? It should hypothetically be a 52% reduction which is also what I got when I was doing Fuel Converter tests earlier.

 

Yeah you caught me, but I fixed it. I wrote down .48, the amount taken, rather than .52, the amount reduced.


Edited by Acguy, 22 December 2016 - 11:47 PM.


#5
ArchMech

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o wait...you're saying that these are actual stats in game that you are seeing right this very moment in a test

woops i thought this was a suggestion not data mining


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#6
Elite_is_salty

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knurds


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#7
Sriracha_Sauce

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If you've ever used deflectors with the bruiser ability, the percentages stack additively. Multiple defense internals paired with the bruiser ability turns out to be your diminishing returns as you said, you would take a very small percent higher damage than with just one defense internal. Just one internal + ability is additive.

Just thought you'd appreciate that.
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Can't handle the sauce?


#8
Acguy

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Good to know, not that I have a bruiser though. Are the movement speed parts additive?



#9
DallasCreeper

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 Are the movement speed parts additive?

Yes, and they also stack with Blitz (including G2). 


 

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#10
coldform

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Good to know, not that I have a bruiser though. Are the movement speed parts additive?

definitely.  get a G2 raider in the right conditions, and it will outrun a boosting scout.


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#11
WmMoneyFrmMissouri

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definitely. get a G2 raider in the right conditions, and it will outrun a boosting scout.


You're also forgetting that G2R's look better the faster they get. That like cubes any calculation you want to run when concerning this.
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#12
Acguy

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If you're a turret mode vanguard (that's the one with 60% reduction from the front I think) with a failsafe, are you immune to your own grenades from the front?

 

Also, if you get an assist with the armor fusor while the effect is already activefrom a kill, does it replace the faster regen rate with the lower one?

 

And when you say that speed parts are additive, do you all actually mean they actually stack with eachother like 15% + 15% = 30% more speed, or just that you can have more than one active at once?


Edited by Acguy, 23 December 2016 - 11:28 AM.


#13
TheButtSatisfier

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There's so much experimentation and peer-review of all this data that it's making me hot and bothered. Keep it up.


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#14
Amidatelion

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If you're a turret mode vanguard (that's the one with 60% reduction from the front I think) with a failsafe, are you immune to your own grenades from the front?

Also, if you get an assist with the armor fusor while the effect is already activefrom a kill, does it replace the faster regen rate with the lower one?

And when you say that speed parts are additive, do you all actually mean they actually stack with eachother like 15% + 15% = 30% more speed, or just that you can have more than one active at once?


1. No, you just itch a little.
2. Dunno this one.
3. Yup, they're the only additive ones, I think.
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#15
Acguy

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1. No, you just itch a little.

 

So it's safe to assume turret defense bonuses add the same way parts add with other parts, even though the brawler ability allegedly works off of the 15%+15%=30% logic?


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#16
Silverfire

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So it's safe to assume turret defense bonuses add the same way parts add with other parts, even though the brawler ability allegedly works off of the 15%+15%=30% logic?

 

I think generally speaking, yes.  The percentages may not be exactly perfect, like you might take 82% less damage when the math says 85% less damage (as a reference to the Bruiser ability + deflectors stack as a straight additive stack as Sriracha_Sauce mentions), but we may have to take into account the somewhat arbitrary values and measurements the UE3 engine does and stuff.


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#17
Onstrava

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I have ask, why the sudden interest in theory crafting internals? Besides that, yes in the right conditions you can outrun a scout in a G2R but that means two things, your health is low and you have to kill someone for the short movement speed buff. Most of the time this doesn't happen because most of the time you need your ability to down your opponent. But you get the chance to run that fast every once and awhile, which is always nice.

Edited by Onstrava, 24 December 2016 - 05:25 AM.

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#18
Acguy

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It isn't that my interest is new, it's just that I'm new.


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#19
Nept

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#20
EM1O

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Brawler with defl+evasive+psurg=hackusations.

a-yup

:yes:


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#21
ARCH3TYP3

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I just have to mention again that I love the chown sig, EM10.


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#22
EM1O

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for the unknowing, it's a Linux geek script joke.  google it--it might be "out there", as this joke is about 30 or more years old.

 

edit:  actually, it didn't start out as a joke, it was just the morphing of Engrish, and it got caught.


Edited by EM1O, 25 December 2016 - 04:13 PM.

#:  chown -R us ./base

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