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On code - Precedence in Damage Calculations

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#1
The_Silencer

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For starters, the precedence of the damage taken right after throwing an H.E Charge to an enemy is calculated way before than the damage which the H.E Charge should inflict to that forementioned enemy.

 

In other words, right before you got killed, your own H.E Charge will cause damage to your own mech (obviously if you're close enough..) than causing damage to your enemy target.

 

If the precedence I mention here is true then I think the code needs os a revision to make things a little bit more fair.

 

From where does this come from? Well, I realized on this (not sure at 100% on it though but "I've a bad feeling about this" in many games played under laggy conditions in several servers during all these many years..) is working that way.

 

Subsequently, the obvious issue with this, would be that you're gonna get killed by your own offensive item damage before inflicting damage to your opponent in the last moment. In that last moment.. right?

 

And that's not 100% fair, IMHO.

 

Precedents: you throw an offensive item right before dying and it does not inflict any damage to enemies.

 

Check it yourself. I may be wrong on this but I think it worths some little revision.. and I'd like to know if anyone else has found similar cases than me on this matter.

 

Hoping that this is of any help

 

 


Edited by The_Silencer, 22 February 2016 - 10:17 AM.

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The difference between theory and practice is smaller in theory than it is in practice.


#2
MechFighter5e3bf9

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i often throw a martyrdom grenade when i die aswell and expect it to be mabey 50/50 even if i see and hear it fire knowing that it fired on my end, on the server/other players end i was already dead



#3
The_Silencer

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remember, the thing is what happens right before dying.. ergo not once you die nor right after..


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The difference between theory and practice is smaller in theory than it is in practice.


#4
Morquedeas

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Is this from google translate?  I honestly have no idea what op is trying to say here.



#5
StubbornPuppet

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This is a real thing.  Any shot, secondary or primary, effectively disappears the moment you die.  So, what would have been a final blow to your opponent, that should have led to a mutual kill, just doesn't count.

 

I presume that what is happening on the backend is that the moment you die, the game removes/resets everything associated with you.

 

It's kind of frustrating.


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To be serious for a moment this is just a joke

 


#6
phed

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Happens with nades and he, tows and heat get though for that nice revenge shot \ riposte
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#7
DieselCat

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Don't know if this applies to what is being discussed here. Though I think when you kill each other at the exact same moment, both players are credited with a kill and a death ?...but correct me if wrong.


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Just Relax....and take life one game at a time....

Don't run to your death....walk

 

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*+

 


#8
KejiGoto

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This doesn't impact EOC-R, I know that much. Plenty of times I've gotten a clean up kill after being taken out thanks to mines on the ground and someone blundering into them while weak. Never realized GL vanishes though it makes sense as plenty of times I've fired off one knowing I'm about to die and never get anything out of it. Hopefully this get fixed.


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#9
Rainbow_Sheep

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This is a real thing. Any shot, secondary or primary, effectively disappears the moment you die. So, what would have been a final blow to your opponent, that should have led to a mutual kill, just doesn't count.

I presume that what is happening on the backend is that the moment you die, the game removes/resets everything associated with you.

It's kind of frustrating.

There was a forum thread about this a while ago and this turned out to be false


Edited by Rainbow Sheep, 23 February 2016 - 10:51 PM.

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#10
-Tj-

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There was a forum thread about this a while ago and this turned out to be false

I think what some may be experiencing is related to differences in ping and ping delay. Sometimes I hear a grenade get fired, but I die almost immediately afterward. While I might have heard the grenade get fired and my game client may have thought I did, the server decided I did not, thus the grenade is lost and no hits are registered. That's what I believe to be happening anyway.


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#11
The_Silencer

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Exactly, pings and possible lag will make a difference there and may confuse the crowd pretty much..

 

Killing every instance of child objects, properties.., et cetera (primary and secondary weapons, projectiles, items and so on..) of a Playable Character (a.k.a your mech) in the very moment it dies, doesn't look to me so terrible idea.

 

Would be cool having that last nade thrown to your enemy killing them right after you got killed? Well.. probably. Although that might have a relevant impact in the actual gameplay. Think about that..

 

ANYWAY,

my point wasn't that, guys. My point was and still is as follows:

 

Seems to me that, if you throw an H.E. Charge to an enemy close to you, while you're very low on health ergo right before dying by the damage inflicted by your own and forementioned H.E charge (because your mech is within AoE of it), yes? Ok, the damage of that H.E caused to you has precedence, is calculated and processed to damage you first and only right before you die,

 

In other words, I think your own explosives never damage an enemy close to you, but will kill you first always because the precedence at calculating and processing the damage of those will always suppose a disadvantage for you.

 

Lol.. what a mouthful, my apologies. You see the point though?


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The difference between theory and practice is smaller in theory than it is in practice.


#12
StubbornPuppet

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Just because you have one video of a time where it didn't happen, doesn't 'prove it to be false'.  That is also a very controlled test in a very controlled environment - which is good... but it does not represent what happens in a real match, with a full complement of players, all firing and moving.

 

I can launch a grenade, watch it fly out, see it bounce right at my target and then, when I die, it just disappears.  I've seen it happen with TOW's, I've seen it with an HE. I've seen it happen with Corsair, I've seen it happen with Seekers, I've seen it happen with the Grenadier and the B34R's.

 

I've seen it happen so many hundreds of times, as have so many others.  And if you want to blame it on lag or ping, then you have to convince all of us that everything I see on my screen, including the movement of my own mech, is actually 3-4 full seconds behind.  But, since I know that isn't the case... I am perfectly founded.

 

What I think is happening is that the code that keeps track of all this stuff is making decisions about what to 'throw away' when it gets 'busy'.  So, while you may not see it with two players, standing still, making one shot at a time... there is much more going on when a full match is running.  I don't think that anyone here is going to argue that Hawken server-side client does a good job of cleanly and rapidly managing synchronization of all the data that needs to be distributed to the user-side client.


Edited by StubbornPuppet, 24 February 2016 - 07:33 AM.

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To be serious for a moment this is just a joke

 


#13
CraftyDus

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No one believes you

EOC Raider, Bolt Pred, Rev Gl Gren, EOC Infil, All the Reapers, Father, Expert in Guitar Kung Fu, and Founder of TPG Hawken

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#14
The_Silencer

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Interesting discussion, guys. Would be cool having a dev unveiling the mistery someday ;)


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The difference between theory and practice is smaller in theory than it is in practice.


#15
Rainbow_Sheep

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Just because you have one video of a time where it didn't happen, doesn't 'prove it to be false'. That is also a very controlled test in a very controlled environment - which is good... but it does not represent what happens in a real match, with a full complement of players, all firing and moving.

I can launch a grenade, watch it fly out, see it bounce right at my target and then, when I die, it just disappears. I've seen it happen with TOW's, I've seen it with an HE. I've seen it happen with Corsair, I've seen it happen with Seekers, I've seen it happen with the Grenadier and the B34R's.

I've seen it happen so many hundreds of times, as have so many others. And if you want to blame it on lag or ping, then you have to convince all of us that everything I see on my screen, including the movement of my own mech, is actually 3-4 full seconds behind. But, since I know that isn't the case... I am perfectly founded.

If you produce reliable video evidence of this happening I would believe you.

Until then I'm inclined to believe that another factor is the culprit.

Edited by Rainbow Sheep, 24 February 2016 - 09:03 AM.

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#16
The_Silencer

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If you produce reliable video evidence of this happening I would believe you.

Until then I'm inclined to believe that another factor is the culprit.

Yes Sir! ;P

 

Work, work, work....... ;)


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The difference between theory and practice is smaller in theory than it is in practice.


#17
StubbornPuppet

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Just because you have one video of a time where it didn't happen, doesn't 'prove it to be false'.  That is also a very controlled test in a very controlled environment - which is good... but it does not represent what happens in a real match, with a full complement of players, all firing and moving.

 

I can launch a grenade, watch it fly out, see it bounce right at my target and then, when I die, it just disappears.  I've seen it happen with TOW's, I've seen it with an HE. I've seen it happen with Corsair, I've seen it happen with Seekers, I've seen it happen with the Grenadier and the B34R's.

 

I've seen it happen so many hundreds of times, as have so many others.  And if you want to blame it on lag or ping, then you have to convince all of us that everything I see on my screen, including the movement of my own mech, is actually 3-4 full seconds behind.  But, since I know that isn't the case... I am perfectly founded.

 

 

If you produce reliable video evidence of this happening I would believe you.

Until then I'm inclined to believe that another factor is the culprit.

 

Well, then I guess I'll just have to concede.  I have never recorded video of any games, nor do I have anything (software or hardware) for doing so.  And, I'm not even remotely concerned enough about this to go through all the hassle of doing all of that, or playing a bunch of Hawken matches where I attempt to reproduce it.  I'm just too lazy and lack the 'give-a-s#!t' attitude required.

 

There used to be some posted videos that show what we're talking about.

 

Anyhow, I have a thick skin, so if you want to tell me what this "other factor" that you think is the culprit is, I can take it.


Edited by StubbornPuppet, 24 February 2016 - 02:25 PM.

To be serious for a moment this is just a joke

 


#18
Rainbow_Sheep

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Anyhow, I have a thick skin, so if you want to tell me what this "other factor" that you think is the culprit is, I can take it.


TL:DR: I'm not entirely sure

In both situations, The video test done with grenades and in the situation you described, the same things happen. A grenade is launched , and then apparently it sometimes dissapears after death and sometimes does.

Which is really strange.

Now there shouldn't be any difference between the test and in a normal game. Which is why I was talking about another factor being the culprit. It seems unlikely that it "sometimes happens and sometimes doesn't" without something else controlling that.

So anyway, this mysterious factor I mentioned. What could it be? Like the tl:dr says, I'm not entirely sure.

However, I think it's likely it's a ping/netcode thing. Hopefully the latter, since the devs can hopefully fix bugs in the netcode, but there isn't much they can do about people just having high ping.

Either way, it definitely is a problem. The test has shown that dissapearing grenades does not always happen, but this problem apparently happens enough and enough peoppe have noticed to deserve 2 forum threads.
Whatever the problem is, hopefully it is one that can be fixed

I'll probably reword this post later to make it clearer

Edited by Rainbow Sheep, 25 February 2016 - 12:21 AM.

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#19
StubbornPuppet

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^No, that's pretty clear.  I appreciate what you're saying and that you're not, as I thought, looking to blame it on me being a whiner or unwilling to take a mature accounting of my own inadequacies and failures.  So, thank you for that.

 

My ping is actually pretty darn low on most every occasion.  On some occasions, it actually sucks to have such a fast connection in online games - since the server has to balance the game between the fast people and the slow people, I often end up being thoroughly screwed by people with really slow connections.  That abomination of a game, COD: MW, was the worst experience of that I've ever had with it's backasswards lag compensation.

 

I'd say that I notice the disappearing weapon shots, items immediately after death far more often than I don't.


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To be serious for a moment this is just a joke

 


#20
Rainbow_Sheep

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^No, that's pretty clear.  I appreciate what you're saying and that you're not, as I thought, looking to blame it on me being a whiner or unwilling to take a mature accounting of my own inadequacies and failures.  So, thank you for that.

 

 

Thanks for being understanding, I was looking back at my previous posts in this thread this morning and hoping I wasn't implying that. In hindsight I worded those posts pretty badly.


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#21
The_Silencer

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Ok guys, allow me posting a little disclaimer as reminder, for myself as well:

 

I'm not sure on the precedence of damage calculations in the code. It's just seemed to me that happening during a fist of games I played in different servers on the EU zone. Most of them were lagging pretty "well". Hence, that's why I asked for and opened this friendly topic. ;)


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The difference between theory and practice is smaller in theory than it is in practice.


#22
ArchMech

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well i remember plenty of kills after the fact of death with projectile items/weapons so im not sure if what you're experiencing is some sort of lag compensation that makes the servers think you fired the shot after dying and then nullifying it or what the deal may be

but meh


don't mind me, i'm just on a crusade against humanity, by the end of my lifespan earth's population will be 8 billion+ trolls


#23
The_Silencer

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Hahah, Ok

 

Assuming that your mech is very low on health..

what I'd like to know is if, rigth before dying, your own explosives (thrown or fired to an enemy very close to you) will kill your mech always and won't cause any damage to the enemy because the code do as follows:

 

you throw the H.E Charge or grenade (to an enemy very close to your mech)

the nade explodes and its AoE damage kills you FIRST (by residual self-damage of it)

-?-

BUT your enemy isn't damaged at all..

-probably because the nade + its damage effects by AoE are gone in the very moment your mech dies. The thing is that both mechas should die...

 

But as you said... meh

 

not so important thing after all ;P


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The difference between theory and practice is smaller in theory than it is in practice.


#24
StubbornPuppet

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Assuming that your mech is very low on health..

what I'd like to know is if, rigth before dying, your own explosives (thrown or fired to an enemy very close to you) will kill your mech always and won't cause any damage to the enemy because the code do as follows:

 

you throw the H.E Charge or grenade (to an enemy very close to your mech)

the nade explodes and its AoE damage kills you FIRST (by residual self-damage of it)

-?-

BUT your enemy isn't damaged at all..

-probably because the nade + its damage effects by AoE are gone in the very moment your mech dies. The thing is that both mechas should die...

 

That's what I've seen happen.  It's not every time, but it happens.  I think it's related to/the same as what I was talking about, which is why I chimed in.

 

I suppose that, if Hawken is like most games, they have to compensate for the lag by giving the benefit of the doubt to the player who's client hasn't registered your action.  So, if you have a fast-ish connection and your opponent has a slow connection, the game tries to avoid excess frustration for the player with the slow connection by saying, "You didn't see it, so it didn't happen."  That high ping player never saw you launch the HE Charge... so their client end doesn't calculate the damage for it.

 

So, where did the decision to throw that data out occur?  My suspicion would be that the client on the end of the person that died stops sending information like that to the server at the moment of death.  Then, if the server registers your death, but sees that the other players client didn't yet register your HE Charge, it throws it away.


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To be serious for a moment this is just a joke

 


#25
The_Silencer

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Good analysis, mate

 

I think I'm gonna open a new topic on GD.. how about this? : "Hey devs.. Knock - Knock! ;)"


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The difference between theory and practice is smaller in theory than it is in practice.


#26
MechFighter5e3bf9

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great theory, that would clean alot of network overhead

#27
hestoned

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if your charging a heat shot and die the cannon automatically fires. projectiles dont disappear after death. have gotten plenty of kills firing my tow right before dying to bullets.



#28
The_Silencer

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if your charging a heat shot and die the cannon automatically fires. projectiles dont disappear after death. have gotten plenty of kills firing my tow right before dying to bullets.

Interesting, I've to try that myself here. I'd find this to be pretty fair due to the inherent difficulty of this weapon ( even more while playing with not so good pings.. )

 

Additionally, I've checked myself on how heat cannon shots can go through map boundaries too; just as an annecdote


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The difference between theory and practice is smaller in theory than it is in practice.


#29
StubbornPuppet

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It may simply be that some weapons/items are tied to whatever piece of code controls this... and others are not.  That's an easy enough thing to overlook in development if you're in a hurry, or have people being dumped on a task that they didn't start... or being careless.


Edited by StubbornPuppet, 07 March 2016 - 06:59 AM.

To be serious for a moment this is just a joke

 


#30
The_Silencer

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if some few weapon projectiles "survive" the kill method when a mech dies... then this would be a pretty curious case, indeed

 

note: I've seen that happening withing some other projects in the past for a considerable number of different reasons...


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The difference between theory and practice is smaller in theory than it is in practice.





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