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#81
Sriracha_Sauce

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 the cry babies enjoy posting their smack-talk on the forums, 

 

 

 the cry babies enjoy posting 

 

 

Pfft, 3 day ban for breaking rules and you're all going ape-sh*t; I lol in your general direction.

Poop ( below-average skill level player, hangs back and vultures for kills too often, not sure why you love him so much but I digress... ) has a nasty habit of talking rubbish constantly- if he couldn't control his posting habits, or language, then he got what he was asking for ultimately. Hell, my original alpha-tester account got banned by the old dev team for nothing more than high-lighting problems with the game and the bad attitude of one of the team ( I'm glaring at you, [HWK]Vanishingkaku... ).
 

 

lol

 

 

If rules are actually being enforced now without granting individuals allowances for breaking them based on how prominent they are in the community,  how is that a bad thing?  I don't know what exactly happened, I don't really care, what's done is done.  I can only wonder what new gamers must be thinking when they land on these forums to see this mess that's been splattered over the forum in response to what sounds like plain old bad behavior followed by more of the same.

 

Whereas these individuals had legitimate reason to post such threads (supporting PoopSlinger), and probably understood that moderation was going to happen, they did not expect at the level at which is was exacted - a 3 day suspension from the forums, a blanket punishment for all involved, even for those who were first offenders on the forums, both on the old and new.  The issue arises from the 1. blanket punishment for even newly minted "cool point" aka warning points collectors 2. vague procedures on punishing violation of forum rules (like spamming).  Good intentions, wrong execution from the get-go, and a punishment perceived as unjust and unfair.

 

It is to my belief that this could easily be solved just by deleting every single one of the threads and issuing a warning.  That seems appropriate (to me) for first time offenders, and even for multiple warning point offenders, due to the frivolous nature of the posts and the intentions behind it.  Except it wasn't handled like that.  Everyone got sucker-punched in the face with a 3 day suspension.  Mind you, these members are prominent because they are long tenured contributors to the forums and the game in general.  They contribute.  Pretty much the entire Hawken Teamspeak admin team was suspended.  The Hawken subreddit moderator was suspended.  The list goes on.  These aren't run-of-the-mill average joes who were looking to prey upon these helpless forums with spam. These are, as you say, prominent community members for good reason.  Perhaps it is seen as unjust to exact differing punishments to folks of different social status (in this game at least), but due to countless instances in which these suspended people essentially sustained the community and the game from the very beginning (dating back to 2012), perhaps a small amount of leniency could have been granted.  A goodwill gesture, so to speak, but with warnings attached to it.  Nobody, however, gets a "get of jail free" card I would think.

 

I understand that Tiggs has a job to do, and she did it.  People feel as if it could be handled differently.  Not in a way that there is no moderation, but different in the way of dishing out punishment.  Perhaps a set procedure can be formulated and made public to define clearly how the community moderator/manager will conduct business.


Edited by Sriracha_Sauce, 06 November 2015 - 09:01 AM.

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Can't handle the sauce?


#82
Sorroritas

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the HAMMER of JUSTICE

First thing that came to my mind after reading this

Spoiler

 

Spoiler


Edited by Sorroritas, 06 November 2015 - 01:45 AM.

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Treat them with honour, my Brothers.

Not because they will bring us victory this day,

but because their fate will one day be ours.


#83
ATX22

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lol

 

 

 

Whereas these individuals had legitimate reason to post such threads (supporting PoopSlinger), and probably understood that moderation was going to happen, they did not expect at the level at which is was exacted - a 3 day suspension from the forums, a blanket punishment for all involved, even for those who were first offenders on the forums, both on the old and new.  The issue arises from the 1. blanket punishment for even newly minted "cool point" aka warning points collectors 2. vague procedures on punishing violation of forum rules (like spamming).  Good intentions, wrong execution from the get-go, and a punishment perceived as unjust and unfair.

 

It is to my belief that this could easily be solved just by deleting every single one of the threads and issuing a warning.  That seems appropriate (to me) for first time offenders, and even for multiple warning point offenders, due to the frivolous nature of the posts and the intentions behind it.  Except it wasn't handled like that.  Everyone got sucker-punched in the face with a 3 day suspension.  Mind you, these members are prominent because they are long tenured contributors to the forums and the game in general.  They contribute.  Pretty much the entire Hawken Teamspeak admin team was suspended.  The Hawken subreddit moderator was suspended.  The list goes on.  These aren't run-of-the-mill average joes who were looking to prey upon these helpless forums with spam. These are, as you say, prominent community members for good reason.  Perhaps it is seen as unjust to exact differing punishments to folks of different social status (in this game at least), but due to countless instances in which these suspended people essentially sustained the community and the game from the very beginning (dating back to 2012), perhaps a small amount of leniency could have been granted.  A goodwill gesture, so to speak, but with warnings attached to it.  Nobody, however, gets a "get of jail free" card I would think.

 

I understand that Tiggs has a job to do, and she did it.  People feel as if it could be handled differently.  Not in a way that there is no moderation, but different in the way of dishing out punishment.  Perhaps a set procedure can be formulated and made public to define clearly how the community moderator/manager will conduct business.

 

Legitimate or not is a matter of opinion.  Thing is, the forums are no longer being managed like a patient-run asylum.  People apparently don't get immunized from consequence by playing the popularity game with their more prominent peers here any more.  I hope that is here to stay.  The type of punishment doled out, eh, that's a discussion best initiated via a PM/ticket to the admins here rather than rabble-rousing threads that read like they're aimed at shaming Reloaded.  But hey, I'll leave it at that.. this topic is past the point of being relevant.


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#84
Skrubdos7

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Legitimate or not is a matter of opinion.  Thing is, the forums are no longer being managed like a patient-run asylum.  People apparently don't get immunized from consequence by playing the popularity game with their more prominent peers here any more.  I hope that is here to stay.  The type of punishment doled out, eh, that's a discussion best initiated via a PM/ticket to the admins here rather than rabble-rousing threads that read like they're aimed at shaming Reloaded.  But hey, I'll leave it at that.. this topic is past the point of being relevant.

I don't know what exactly happened


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#85
Not_Silverfire

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Legitimate or not is a matter of opinion.  Thing is, the forums are no longer being managed like a patient-run asylum.  People apparently don't get immunized from consequence by playing the popularity game with their more prominent peers here any more.  I hope that is here to stay.  The type of punishment doled out, eh, that's a discussion best initiated via a PM/ticket to the admins here rather than rabble-rousing threads that read like they're aimed at shaming Reloaded.  But hey, I'll leave it at that.. this topic is past the point of being relevant.

 

Again, the issue does not arise whether or not the protest was legitimate (which it sort of is).  The issue does not arise from consequences being placed on those members of the community.  The issue arises from vague moderation procedures and a perceived unjust punishment for a significant portion of the active forum community (at least 20 respected members of the game).  I'm not asking for immunization from consequences.  None of the suspended people are.  We did break forum rules, and at least I expected some sort of punishment for it.  Warning points and a deletion of threads is what I expected, it seems reasonable. Very reasonable and understandable, the message would've gotten across.  Not a 3 day suspension, however, only because it seems out of place for a minor incident and especially for first time offenders that have continually built and supported the game from day 1.  You don't exact heavy handed punishment to a model citizen who only just committed a crime, a very minor crime.  Kind of like jailing a person for 3 years for shoplifting for the first time.  The punishment doesn't match the crime.

 

And why not make it public? If discussion is to happen, especially in regards to how the forums are going to be moderated (or issues that may arise in regards to moderation, which would in turn affect everyone on the forums), why not have it open discussion about it, like we're having right now?  Better to clear the air about the issue instead of leaving it in limbo, waiting for the next incident to arise and another debate to occur.  Hash it out now and we won't have to worry about arguing over vague procedures or anything else.  We can point to the forum rules, see that it's definitive and clear in wording, and then move on.

 

Running away from a problem does not make it go away.  


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#86
ATX22

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Legitimate or not is a matter of opinion.  Thing is, the forums are no longer being managed like a patient-run asylum.  People apparently don't get immunized from consequence by playing the popularity game with their more prominent peers here any more.  I hope that is here to stay.  The type of punishment doled out, eh, that's a discussion best initiated via a PM/ticket to the admins here rather than rabble-rousing threads that read like they're aimed at shaming Reloaded.  But hey, I'll leave it at that.. this topic is past the point of being relevant.

I don't know what exactly happened

 

 

I read some Q&D explanations on what happened, didn't go searching for the actual infraction, so no, as I said, I don't know EXACTLY what happened.  But I'm also not calling into question what Reloaded did in response, I'm trusting the forum moderators' judgment here on what constitutes rule breaking, it's their messageboard anyway.  EDIT: Heck, still droning on about this is probably already close enough that I'm risking warning points.. 


Edited by ATX22, 06 November 2015 - 06:20 PM.


#87
Superkamikazee

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Are people really still mad about the current and ongoing state of Hawken? Guys and gals, its been a sh¡t show for 3 years, how can anyone still be upset, its a miracle the game still exists. Lol

Edited by Superkamikazee, 06 November 2015 - 08:16 PM.

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#88
Dawn_of_Ash

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This is one of very few threads that haven't been derailed. Good job, team!

 

But can we just move on? The fact that so much heat has been produced by one person not even being permanently-banned truly needs to stop. I can understand that people are angry but making a topic like this and already having a developer respond to it,and stating their intentions,and willing to improve it seems like a good move to me.

 

But one thing that is making me angry about this entire topic is how people saying that some of the people should not have been banned because they are "so-and-so" really annoys me. Tiggs obviously didn't care that they were "the head of reddit" or "a part of the Hawken Teamspeak" and punished them to the book for spamming - which it was. What people are saying about these banned forum members should not have been banned because they are something-or-other is utterly stupid. Stupid reasoning and stupid logic. That is not to say that I agree with Tiggs in the severity of the punishment, but I agree that a punishment was required. I also find it interesting how people of these "high-status" positions decided to take part in the spamming anyways - they knew the rules.

 

Anyways, can we just learn that Tiggs does her job to the book and without bias-ness and just move on and, you know, not do it?


Edited by Dawn_of_Ash, 06 November 2015 - 08:23 PM.


#89
Superkamikazee

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Wait, this poopgate hashtag idiocy is over a 3 day slap on the wrist? Maybe the 3 day ban is a blessing in disguise for these individuals to get some damn life perspective and reevaluate what's really important. Good lord.

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#90
crockrocket

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Hey! Alright now that my suspension is over, here are my two cents. First of all, the whole #freepoopslinger thing was not an organized affair. Many of us came to the same conclusion and were inspired by the other posts. Secondly, after talking to those suspended, we pretty much all expected moderative action. What we did not expect was a 3-day suspension with zero warning. I'm aware that a three day suspension is a slap on the wrist, however the fact that it was enacted, en masse, with absolutely zero communication from Tiggs is extremely perturbing. I want to have a relationship with the devs wherein either of us can communicate to the other when one has fuzzed up.
 
Now, to address some of the comments I've seen over the past three days. Frankly, I'm surprised. Speaking for myself here; no, I never thought I was "immune" or "un-banable" or for that matter better than any other Hawken player in any way. Y'all are my friends, and if any of you think I have been a dildo in any way, please shoot me a PM so that we can sort things out. I only want the best for this community and everyone involved.
 
Crash & Burn!
 
-crockrocket

Edited by (TDM)crockrocket, 06 November 2015 - 09:16 PM.

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Salvage: An Idea to Stop Leavers

Player Retention & Howken

 

[14:31] <Crafty> I know that in my balls
[14:32] <Crafty> hawken is unlike anything Ive played

 

 


#91
Superkamikazee

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Hey! Alright now that my suspension is over, here are my two cents. First of all, the whole #freepoopslinger thing was not an organized affair. Many of us came to the same conclusion and were inspired by the other posts. Secondly, after talking to those suspended, we pretty much all expected moderative action. What we did not expect was a 3-day suspension with zero warning. I'm aware that a three day suspension is a slap on the wrist, however the fact that it was enacted, en masse, with absolutely zero communication from Tiggs is extremely perturbing. I want to have a relationship with the devs wherein either of us can communicate to the other when one has fuzzed up.
 
Now, to address some of the comments I've seen over the past three days. Frankly, I'm surprised. Speaking for myself here; no, I never thought I was "immune" or "un-banable" or for that matter better than any other Hawken player in any way. Y'all are my friends, and if any of you think I have been a dildo in any way, please shoot me a PM so that we can sort things out. I only want the best for this community and everyone involved.
 
Crash & Burn!
 
-crockrocket

 

 

I don't want to sound rude but, really? People just irrationally spammed the forums, but now there's a call for rational communication? 

 

I was banned for 6-7 months and I didn't even cry half as much as some people have over a 3 day time out. Sheesh.


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#92
crockrocket

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I don't want to sound rude but, really? People just irrationally spammed the forums, but now there's a call for rational communication? 

 

I was banned for 6-7 months and I didn't even cry half as much as some people have over a 3 day time out. Sheesh.

Wait lol wut? I never hear about that ban... Is that why our 3v3 team fell though lol?

 

 

In any case, I wouldn't call it irrational as I think most of us knew why we did it. Anyway, I'm gonna go ahead and see myself out of this thread, I think I've made my point clear and see no reason to continue. 


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Salvage: An Idea to Stop Leavers

Player Retention & Howken

 

[14:31] <Crafty> I know that in my balls
[14:32] <Crafty> hawken is unlike anything Ive played

 

 


#93
Dawn_of_Ash

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I didn't know you were a part of the ban, Crock. O__O

 

 

 What we did not expect was a 3-day suspension with zero warning. I'm aware that a three day suspension is a slap on the wrist, however the fact that it was enacted, en masse, with absolutely zero communication from Tiggs is extremely perturbing.

 

This sounds familiar from that blame_saturn guy. Maybe you guys should send PMs to each other and agree with each other on there or something! :D You guys might become best friends or something...

 

 

I don't want to sound rude but, really? People just irrationally spammed the forums, but now there's a call for rational communication? 

 

I was banned for 6-7 months and I didn't even cry half as much as some people have over a 3 day time out. 

 

I don't think the spamming was irrational. I considered it kind of like a Dragonborn killing a chicken (Poopslinger) then the whole town trying to kill the Dragonborn but then they get Fusrodaed (the banned people). 

 

Also, about the whole being banned for 6-7 months thing, its become obvious that many people don't really care about that and disregard the comment because its not them. Very few people in this forum would listen you unless it affects them. I tell you that after personal experience.

 

Sorry, do I sound angry? Oh, yeah, I am. 


Edited by Dawn_of_Ash, 06 November 2015 - 09:31 PM.

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#94
crockrocket

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I didn't know you were a part of the ban, Crock. O__O

 

 

This sounds familiar from that blame_saturn guy. Maybe you guys should send PMs to each other and agree with each other on there or something! :D You guys might become best friends or something...

 

 

Huh, funny thing about that ;)


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Salvage: An Idea to Stop Leavers

Player Retention & Howken

 

[14:31] <Crafty> I know that in my balls
[14:32] <Crafty> hawken is unlike anything Ive played

 

 


#95
Superkamikazee

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Wait lol wut? I never hear about that ban... Is that why our 3v3 team fell though lol?

 

 

In any case, I wouldn't call it irrational as I think most of us knew why we did it. Anyway, I'm gonna go ahead and see myself out of this thread, I think I've made my point clear and see no reason to continue. 

 

Got into it with an old dev via pm's way back, my ban lifted when the forums went back online with the new devs. Fell off Hawken recently, had a baby. Unfortunately I can't find enough time to commit to organized play. I'm sorry for failing the team, at least we did it that one time, that was cool beans.


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#96
Dawn_of_Ash

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Huh, funny thing about that ;)

 

*gasp* Their your brother/sister aren't they?!


Edited by Dawn_of_Ash, 06 November 2015 - 09:35 PM.


#97
Superkamikazee

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I didn't know you were a part of the ban, Crock. O__O

 

 

This sounds familiar from that blame_saturn guy. Maybe you guys should send PMs to each other and agree with each other on there or something! :D You guys might become best friends or something...

 

 

 

I don't think the spamming was irrational. I considered it kind of like a Dragonborn killing a chicken (Poopslinger) then the whole town trying to kill the Dragonborn but then they get Fusrodaed (the banned people). 

 

Also, about the whole being banned for 6-7 months thing, its become obvious that many people don't really care about that and disregard the comment because its not them. Very few people in this forum would listen you unless it affects them. I tell you that after personal experience.

 

Sorry, do I sound angry? Oh, yeah, I am. 

 

Oh, I'm listening, and I get it, getting banned sucks, but it's only a 3 day ban. This thing is being blown so far out of proportion vs just being a lesson learned for everyone involved and moving forward.


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#98
WmMoneyFrmMissouri

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Crock,
Regardless of expectation, it seems from what you say you knew what you were doing was going to have a response from management. You misjudged the situation, and took a tow to the face for it. Take the 3 day suspension as a sign they're not messing around and move on is my humble suggestion.

To me it feels some of this moderator animosity is a culmination of many things. This situation I feel has been blown out of proportion in order to settle some old scores on both sides of the fence. I ask all the ro-bros involved to hit the re-boot button on this one to let cooler heads prevail. All this over heating does is take away from what's awesome here - the game - and makes people not want to play. That's DEFINATELY what we don't need! Less players, let alone losing the ones who can help teach us scrubs to be respectable targets..... Muahahaha ;)
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#99
crockrocket

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Crock,
Regardless of expectation, it seems from what you say you knew what you were doing was going to have a response from management. You misjudged the situation, and took a tow to the face for it. Take the 3 day suspension as a sign they're not messing around and move on is my humble suggestion.

To me it feels some of this moderator animosity is a culmination of many things. This situation I feel has been blown out of proportion in order to settle some old scores on both sides of the fence. I ask all the ro-bros involved to hit the re-boot button on this one to let cooler heads prevail. All this over heating does is take away from what's awesome here - the game - and makes people not want to play. That's DEFINATELY what we don't need! Less players, let alone losing the ones who can help teach us scrubs to be respectable targets..... Muahahaha ;)

 

I like this. Yeah what we got was out of proportion, but our reaction probably was as well. All I ask for in the future is communication. 

 

 

EDIT: Just for clarity's sake, we did not all receive the same punishment. I got a suspension with zero warning points, others received warning points associated with their suspension, and others still had points before hand. So, just to be abundantly clear, all I have ever wanted after this moderative action is a clear statement as to why the action was taken, and why different pilots received different punitive action. Talk to us Tiggs, we want to talk to you.


Edited by (TDM)crockrocket, 07 November 2015 - 01:05 AM.

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Salvage: An Idea to Stop Leavers

Player Retention & Howken

 

[14:31] <Crafty> I know that in my balls
[14:32] <Crafty> hawken is unlike anything Ive played

 

 


#100
LadyTiggs

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For a while we didn't have rules and many begged for rules, so we used the rules that were from the original Hawken team and have them posted as an announcement at the top of each forum.  As Josh has stated before, it's not like we go looking for posts in violation, if a post is reported it is investigated to see if action needs to be taken. Many reports are received each day, I do let some posts go because I understand you folks are just waiting for our announcements of what is coming and have discussed everything you can over and over. I get you're passionate about Hawken and want to see it be a great game, I want that and so does the team that Josh is building. 

 

Regardless if the posts were done as a group effort or not, they were removed and actioned (3 day suspension). Take a look over the rules and it's not hard to figure out which rules were broken by the spam posts.  Someone mentioned earlier; how were the threads that were removed considered spam when a different person created each thread, it's no different from the spam threads we receive from bam war or babji, they're done by different forum names too and those are actioned.


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#101
cavefishes

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I'd like to say that as far as forums go, this one already has some of the most lenient moderation I've seen. Yes, we're a small community and there aren't fresh discussion topics available. Most threads have at least some posts that don't contribute to the conversation or break the rules in other ways. Tiggs is aware of this, as she said above.

 

However, when the posts being reported and looked at are objectively spam, despite strong community support, you have to do something. A three day ban and maybe a warning point or two would be completely justified on other forums.

 

Everyone sending a PM to Tiggs would have sent the same message about Poopslinger's moderation without widespread forum spam.


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#102
SS396

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Someone mentioned earlier; how were the threads that were removed considered spam when a different person created each thread, it's no different from the spam threads we receive from bam war or babji, they're done by different forum names too and those are actioned.

 

Uh, Sorry Tiggs, but it is completely different, its not even in the same ballpark.  Baba-Ji isn't a real person, its a bot spamming advertisements for the sole purpose of advertising.  It changes names to defeat being blocked, but its base intent is always advertising.  That is what spam is, its unsolicited or undesired electronic messages.

 

The ones you say are no different are actually different people who publicly disagreed with heavy handed moderation of one forum user.  Those messages were hardly spam, I understand you might of felt they were unwanted because they directly questioned your authority, but they were not spam, they were public displays of disagreement.  Granted it had an undesired effect of bandwagoning, which is why I felt you overreacted but either way, they were NOT spam under any circumstances.  For you to classify them as such, really shows your lack of knowledge and ability to identify things that I feel a community manager should be able to easily identify.

 

So I guess what you are saying is that since its no different in your eyes, that you only give every temp Baba-Ji account a 3 day temp ban then??  Because if you don't then you aren't treating both instances exactly the same with the logic you just mentioned.

 

Did you read my post about timed expiration of warning points?  I didn't get any responses and I'd like to know what you and Josh thought of it.  It is a much better system than the current system in place.


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fuzzy bunny you CZeroFive 


#103
phed

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every so often, ss uses his powers for good.



#104
Dawn_of_Ash

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every so often, ss uses his powers for good.

 

Not to discredit SS396, but I feel that we all have this power. We just never want to put the effort in to use it. 

 

And so far, I haven't seen much of SS396 using his power for bad either.

 

Also, on a side note, I disagree with SS and agree with Tiggs on the reasoning for the punishment, but I really cannot be stuffed wasting anymore brain-power on a subject which really is not going to make any difference. Disagreeing with Tiggs is also not going to make a difference because, believe it or not, she makes the rules and decides when it is enforced. I also disagree with the amount of arguing taking place over an action that has taken place over three days ago where the penalties have already been lifted.

 

I suggest Tiggs to make a new thread stating her reasoning and how she views the spam (because that's what it was regardless of any discussion) so more people see it and can see the rules. That is only to make more people happy. Tiggs already has explained herself twice, so please do not harass her about it any more.


Edited by Dawn_of_Ash, 07 November 2015 - 07:15 PM.


#105
Hyginos

Hyginos

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He's not banned, there was a choice to be made... ban for his posts constantly violating the forum rules and being alerted or placing him into moderation. I went with placing him into the moderation queue since some of his posts are on topic and don't go against the forum rules. 

 

Right. I guess being incarcerated and being incarcerated but you can ask to go out and do something and maybe get permission a few days later are technically different.

 

 

Everyone sending a PM to Tiggs would have sent the same message about Poopslinger's moderation without widespread forum spam.

 

It would not have been the first PM inquiry about moderator action that went ignored. Posting publicly forces Tiggs to notice and forces the community to be aware of what's going on. I doubt we would be discussing anything of the sort if it had been taken to PMs.

 

At the very least we learned something about the logic behind how the moderation is done.

 

EDIT: I forgot to thank BlackWarGreymon for the good gut busting laugh.


Edited by Hyginos, 07 November 2015 - 07:29 PM.

MFW Howken

 

My post count is neat.





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