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Funny things I've heard while playing the Tech

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#1
BaronSaturday

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I've been doing some data gathering since I've been back in Hawken. Many of you are aware of my situation and that my opinion on the Tech is that it should stay in the game as it is. Some of you are also aware that End of Days plays pubs every night together. Some of the in game data I've gathered will be presented here in relation to the Tech being OP.

So VertigoSick, Fenrir_117, and myself were playing last night and I was sticking with Vertigo. A Bruiser happened upon us. We began Assaulting him assuming he would run. He didn't. When Vertigo started taking massive damage I green beemed him. Needless to say, the bruiser who only engaged Vertigo was killed. He then chatted, "Medic OP."

So let's look at this. He engaged two mechs by himself and lost, which is a pretty standard affair. Not many people do that and win. His best bet, were he to engage us was to fight me, but he didn't. Were it any other two mechs, do you think he would have made the same claim? No. He viewed me as unassuming and chose to engage. If he really believed the Tech was OP then why engage in the first place?

So there was a Vangaurx in turret mode as I rounded a corner. I figurex I could put some damage on him and then run when he started to come out of turret mode as he was turned away. I hit him and tried to turn to engage me. I took to the air and flew around behind him and continued to hit him. At about 1/3 health left he decided to get out of turret mode. The fight was already won. I bobbed and weaved and kept hitting him. I won. He chatted, "Tether beam is cheezy."

Were I a scout, zerker, raider, a g2 assault even and he tried to engage me the way he did, he would have gone down 15 seconds earlier than he did.

I've never heard anyone chat that the Tech is OP prior to an engagement... (by that I mean before the match has started. Only after there was an engagement where that person lost did they mention the Tech.) Ever. Not once. It's only after they got killed. Never have I had someone kill me and say, "man, killed that OP Tech."

To the above two examples, do not engage two mechs of sny description alone. It's not wise. If you get hit from behind, alone, and in turret mode, get out of turret mode and turn around. Many more experiencex like this have occured and they are the only times I hear people get vocal in game about the Tech.

Edited by SaturdayGhede, 09 April 2015 - 01:58 AM.

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#2
Meraple

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The things you described there are rather obvious.

I imagine the people you were playing against weren't too bright either considering they were like that.

 

It's easy to back up the Tech against people without any common sense.

 

 

 

Before I get another wall of text thrown onto me about the Tech, no, I didn't argue anything about the Tech.

I was simply pointing out the things your opponents said which you described in the OP are derpy.


Edited by Meraple, 09 April 2015 - 01:03 AM.

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#3
CrimsonKaim

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Thing with the Tech is, it negates the burst, harras, damage you deal on medium-long distances.

 

Whe nI engage a 2v1 in a Brawler for example against two A - classes, I expect to win ebcause I have way more health, a tremendous dmg output plus a really good burst (assumign you are usign the Flak cannon). 

 

The strategy is to burst down one A-Class fast so I don't get so much damage fro mthe first one so I remain with only 100 HP damage to 1v1 the other one. The Tech disables that by this jesus revive beam. 

Removing the stickyness and exchange the ability for the improved aim should do (this was suggested in another thread and I have to say, this solution is brilliant).

 

Tech should heal mechs, and not make them immortal.


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#4
LU0P10

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Yet another Tech thread... so futile...



#5
Fantus_Longhorn

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I've never heard anyone chat that the Tech is OP prior to an engagement... Ever. Not once. It's only after they got killed. Never have I had someone kill me and say, "man, killed that OP Tech."

Just wanted to point out that no-one is going to start typing before a fight, you don't have time. After a fight, if you're dead, you have time.


Edited by Fantus_Longhorn, 09 April 2015 - 02:58 AM.

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#6
n3onfx

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Just wanted to point out that no-one is going to start typing before a fight, you don't have time. After a fight, if you're ded, you have time.

 

The best kind of self-fulfilling prophecy. Fight starts, stop to type that the mech in particular is OP, since you're typing you die, boom there's your proof. 


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#7
LaurenEmily

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Wait you don't pause after every kill to write #rektlolgitgudnoob ?
i thought everybody did that, even with the risk of getting blown up during it.
The more you know...
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#8
BaronSaturday

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Thing with the Tech is, it negates the burst, harras, damage you deal on medium-long distances.

Whe nI engage a 2v1 in a Brawler for example against two A - classes, I expect to win ebcause I have way more health, a tremendous dmg output plus a really good burst (assumign you are usign the Flak cannon).

The strategy is to burst down one A-Class fast so I don't get so much damage fro mthe first one so I remain with only 100 HP damage to 1v1 the other one. The Tech disables that by this jesus revive beam.
Removing the stickyness and exchange the ability for the improved aim should do (this was suggested in another thread and I have to say, this solution is brilliant).

Tech should heal mechs, and not make them immortal.


If you think you should be able to take two A classes alone in any mech then; 1 that mech is OP, and 2 you need to fight Fenrir or Merl in their scouts. Never should a tech beat someone one on one. If they do it was either fighting another tech or someone who didn't have a clue.

Before a fight i meant as before the match starts.

And Techs don't make anything unkillable. Were that the case, we'd never lose.

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#9
BaronSaturday

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The things you described there are rather obvious.
I imagine the people you were playing against weren't too bright either considering they were like that.

It's easy to back up the Tech against people without any common sense.



Before I get another wall of text thrown onto me about the Tech, no, I didn't argue anything about the Tech.
I was simply pointing out the things your opponents said which you described in the OP are derpy.


You'd be surprised to note that both of those individuals had greater than 1700 mmr.

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#10
BaronSaturday

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Wait you don't pause after every kill to write #rektlolgitgudnoob ?
i thought everybody did that, even with the risk of getting blown up during it.
The more you know...


You act like this isn't common.

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#11
Nept

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I think the tech's more or less fine, tbh.  And I'm speaking from a bit of competitive experience.


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#12
Meraple

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You'd be surprised to note that both of those individuals had greater than 1700 mmr.

I'm not surprised at all.

If they had less than that, then it'd have a greater chance to surprise me.


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#13
Dawn_of_Ash

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You'd be surprised to note that both of those individuals had greater than 1700 mmr.

 

Thing is, to get to that MMR is not even hard anymore. It wouldn't surprise me if someone screamed me being a hacker at that rank, even though I only have an MMR of 1850.

 

Honestly, MMR is not a just way to say "I'm a good player" anymore since my MMR has kept dropping since I've gone back to my home server. I'm not even sure if I'm legit 1850 any more because I am capable of beating up 1900-2100 players.

 

That's my roundabout way on saying, MMR is not an accurate term ranking anymore. 


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#14
Superkamikazee

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In those situations the tech is fine. I believe when people on here discuss tech being OP, it has more to do with the fact a tech can keep a death ball marching forward almost indefinitely with little encumbrance . Throw an incinerator into the mix, and you're guaranteed some serious team staying power.


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#15
_incitatus

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Never should a tech beat someone one on one. If they do it was either fighting another tech or someone who didn't have a clue.

 


 

Disagree, there are some pretty good "Battle-Techs" out there.

 

Also, if you are facing a tech and his buddy and you don't shoot the tech first you are simply doing it wrong (most of the time).  It isn't really that hard to win a 2v1 against a tech.  Techs go down really fast if you shoot them.


Edited by incitatus, 09 April 2015 - 05:29 AM.

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#16
Grollourdo

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Yet another opportunity to put my opinion on the tech... But I won't all I will say now ... Is that I just don't want the tech to change and he is perfect where he is.

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#17
Bad_BennyAK

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Agreed.  The tech is fine.  it's low health is handicap enough,  not to mention the FRUSTRATION of chasing down retarded teammates who are 5 health away from dying, and charge right back into battle without letting you heal them.  

 

Perhaps 1 thing that makes the Tech "So Deadly"  is that it's nature is to pair it with another mech,  a damaged mech,  so wherever you see a good mech, you'll find another 1 or 2.   

 

Here's a tip:   when I find myself dying more than I'd like,  I ask myself, "have I been keeping in proximity with my team?"   The answer is usually a resounding "NO!"     Sometimes, though, I'll rush off to help a teammate,  and when I get there, the chickenpoop runs away letting me go Mono E Mono with a buff Vanguard,  so I get a bit ticked.  But When you're dying,  ask yourself that.   Were you in a group??   it's a good chance you wandered off.  


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#18
Grollourdo

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OMG YOU SPOKE MY MIND! XD
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#19
Grollourdo

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That's also use with other mechs asking "what could I have done differently" and stuff like That. This is how ex noon veterans learned their way a XD
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#20
dorobo

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never liked it.. game was different without it  :ninja: tech promotes camping behind corners.

 


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#21
EM1O

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heard that last night. I seriously think the Tech comments are just Loser's Lament.

I am a 1600mmr player, presently. Last night I played Siege in a server with srd of ~2165 if I recall correctly. I had been sucking with my Fat Boy in an earlier match, so I went Tech, as I noticed an Incinerator in the lobby lineup.

After busting my butt, using everything I've been getting taught by upper tier teachers, dying frequently, and getting around 10k repair points doing what I considered a damn good job of keeping everyone alive (not just the Incin) and ranking third, the first chat post after we won was "Tech OP".

You think they were talking about their Tech?

:P

btw, i've posted this before (in spite of my enjoying the Tech). Get rid of the Tech, or remove the self-repair capacity from all other mechs. I'd go with the second idea, as this would completely change the meta of the game, and Tech would become a highly valued niche mech.


Edited by em1o, 09 April 2015 - 08:16 AM.

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#22
Armymonger

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Everything is overpowered when used right.

If I were to speak my mind about the tech
I think of him as like a flee stuck to the side of a bear.
You don't see him when you are getting attacked by the bear.
You only see the Bear.

The issue is that a competent mech tech will NEVER BE ALONE.
It's really difficult to get him when he's cowering behind everyone
You don't focus on the tech when you are being shot at by his companion.

I'm ALWAYS TOLD. Get the tech get the tech.
And I KNOW that I need to get the tech.
But he's behind everyone! I'm just a raider! I can't dive into 6 others to ninja strike that tech.

Maybe if I had a sniper or some stealth, I might have some chance...but yeah...not my style. Or skill level.

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#23
_incitatus

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You don't focus on the tech when you are being shot at by his companion.
...
But he's behind everyone! I'm just a raider! I can't dive into 6 others to ninja strike that tech.
 

 

No, you should focus the tech even if his buddy is shooting you.  That's what is going to happen most of the time, the tech is going to heal the guy shooting you.  SHOOT THE TECH FIRST.  KILL THE DOCTOR.

...

Lol, that's what a Raider is good for... boost in, POP HIM, boost out.

 

It's easier if you can flank them, don't rush straight through the team.  Come at them from the side while the team is distracted.  Whack the tech.  Even if you die, you can take out the tech and distract their team enough to where the rest of your team can come clean up.  Doesn't work all the time obviously lol, but yolo-diving the tech is fun fun fun.


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#24
Sylhiri

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Lol, that's what a Raider is good for... boost in, POP HIM, boost out.

 

Infiltrator against a good team, there is no boosting. You only explode.

 

Some people like it but to me it's not very fun drawing the short straw and need to be the sacrificial lamb.


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#25
_incitatus

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Infiltrator against a good team, there is no boosting. You only explode.

Some people like it but to me it's not very fun drawing the short straw and need to be the sacrificial lamb.


I mean I do my best to not die, but if it happens it's usually glorious. It's a rush sneaking behind enemy lines, popping that fuzzy bunnyer and then Scooting away...
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#26
BaronSaturday

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See. When we notice a Tech, it becomes a priority target. That's the nature of healers. I used to PVPin wow from the last two seasons of Wrath to the end of season one in WoD. I played a Prot Warrior. My job was controling the healer. It's not because they are OP, but because of what they do. Kill orders were dependant on team make up. If there was a rogue, mm hunter, disc priest in 3v3, we went for the hunter because he put out the most damage.

In WoD, if they had a Disc priest, we attacked it until it popped it's CDs and assaulted the squishiest thing next.

Healers do change the dynamic of the game. However, when properly balanced they are never necessary as having more DPS is also viable. We ran DK, Warlock, Warrior a lot. I feel a tech isn't needed to be viable. It's just another option. It forces the other side to play diffdrently. It only adds to the game.

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#27
AsianJoyKiller

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The question isn't whether or not the Tech is balanced.
The question is, are it's current mechanics really the best implementation for a defensive support class in Hawken?


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#28
kasei

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The tech is "OP", because it exists. I'm joking... kinda. For some, the tech will be considered OP as long as it can heal another mech.

Do I think it's OP?

I want all healing, except repair drones, removed from the game. Whether the tech is OP or not, has nothing to do with that opinion.
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#29
BaronSaturday

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The question isn't whether or not the Tech is balanced.
The question is, are it's current mechanics really the best implementation for a defensive support class in Hawken?


Again, it certainly changes the games it is in. There's no denying that. I think it's in a good spot and I say that as objectively as possible.

I think, before we make any major decisions on the Tech, we should get more support mechs. Also, changing how passive support mechs interact with other support mechs should be looked at. I think that not allowing passive support abilities to effect other support mechs is probably wise.

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#30
Sylhiri

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I think, before we make any major decisions on the Tech, we should get more support mechs. Also, changing how passive support mechs interact with other support mechs should be looked at. I think that not allowing passive support abilities to effect other support mechs is probably wise.

 

Exactly what support is needed?

 

Also I don't think anyone has explained why Hawken needs the continuous healing mechanic.



#31
AsianJoyKiller

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I think it's in a good spot

Why?



#32
BaronSaturday

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Exactly what support is needed?

Also I don't think anyone has explained why Hawken needs the continuous healing mechanic.


Why does it need a Stealth mechanic? Well, both of those things create more varried gameplay options. While healing keeps things in the fray longer, which is always more interesting. It keeps the battle moving. Whether that's needed is an interesting qiestion. The fact that it's not needed is what makes it interesting. It doesn't have to be there. No team needs a tech, a predator, an incin, a raider or an anything. You just need people in mechs doing cool things.

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#33
BaronSaturday

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Why?


I think I answered this numerous times. It gives options. It changes match dynamics. It creates play styles that, while not necessary, wouldn't exist without it. Same goes for the raider, pred and incin though. They all do things no other mech does.

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#34
AsianJoyKiller

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I think I answered this numerous times. It gives options. It changes match dynamics. It creates play styles that, while not necessary, wouldn't exist without it. Same goes for the raider, pred and incin though. They all do things no other mech does.

Great. Generic, catch-all non-answers. A 1-hit kill weapon with an AoE that covers the entire map also gives options, changes dynamics and creates a play style that, while not necessary, wouldn't exist without it. Doesn't mean it's good.

I'll be more clear.

 

I'm asking you to explain specifically what is it about the mechanics of how the Tech does what it does, is good. Especially relative to other sorts of healing mechanics. Why is a healing leash good? Why is continuous healing good? Why is a steriod for the beam good as an ability? Etc.

 

And what about these sorts of things makes them the best option possible? Why is a healing leash better than a hitscan HoT? Why is it better than a healing grenade launcher? Why is healing as a weapon ability better than something like a damage reduction beam? Why is an ability that just makes you heal faster better than a group burst heal or something else?

What it is about the Tech's current incarnation that makes it the best possible healer for Hawken's mechanics?


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#35
Scow2

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btw, i've posted this before (in spite of my enjoying the Tech). Get rid of the Tech, or remove the self-repair capacity from all other mechs. I'd go with the second idea, as this would completely change the meta of the game, and Tech would become a highly valued niche mech.

So... how do you plan to make the Brawler a highly-valued niche mech?
How do you plan to make the Vanguard a highly-valued niche mech?
How do you plan to make the Predator a highly-valued niche mech?
How do you plan to make the Scout a highly-valued niche mech?
How do you plan to make the Incinerator a highly-valued niche mech?
How do you plan to make the Rocketeer a highly-valued niche mech?
How do you plan to make the Bruiser a highly-valued niche mech?
How do you plan to make the Reaper a highly-valued niche mech?
How do you plan to make the CR-T Recruit a highly-valued niche mech?
How do you plan to make the Berzerker a highly-valued niche mech?
How do you plan to make the Grenadier a highly-valued niche mech?
How do you plan to make the Sharpshooter a highly-valued niche mech?
How do you plan to make the Raider a highly-valued niche mech?

And what about these sorts of things makes them the best option possible? Why is a healing leash better than a hitscan HoT? Why is it better than a healing grenade launcher? Why is healing as a weapon ability better than something like a damage reduction beam? Why is an ability that just makes you heal faster better than a group burst heal or something else?

All of those are also valid choices. Let's roll out more healer-class mechs!

What it is about the Tech's current incarnation that makes it the best possible healer for Hawken's mechanics?

That, so far, it's the only healing mech with Hawken's mechanics

#36
AsianJoyKiller

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That, so far, it's the only healing mech with Hawken's mechanics

Eh... not quite what I was getting at.

Think about it this way. If there could only be one healing mech in Hawken, would the Tech's current mechanics really be the best way, or are there other healing mechanics that are better suited for Hawken?



#37
Grollourdo

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I personally prefer the tech... Maybe its just that I main him and I TRUELY appreciate its design like lore says it XD

No really now... The tech is not op
Its the pilot that does the mech and not the mech that does the pilot.

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#38
BaronSaturday

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Great. Generic, catch-all non-answers. A 1-hit kill weapon with an AoE that covers the entire map also gives options, changes dynamics and creates a play style that, while not necessary, wouldn't exist without it. Doesn't mean it's good.

I'll be more clear.

I'm asking you to explain specifically what is it about the mechanics of how the Tech does what it does, is good. Especially relative to other sorts of healing mechanics. Why is a healing leash good? Why is continuous healing good? Why is a steriod for the beam good as an ability? Etc.

And what about these sorts of things makes them the best option possible? Why is a healing leash better than a hitscan HoT? Why is it better than a healing grenade launcher? Why is healing as a weapon ability better than something like a damage reduction beam? Why is an ability that just makes you heal faster better than a group burst heal or something else?

What it is about the Tech's current incarnation that makes it the best possible healer for Hawken's mechanics?


Not one of my answers is a catch all. You just spin it that way so it sounds good on your end of the debate. I took debate in high school too. You can dance around and ask things like "why" as the most open ended question possible, then when I give you an answer, you can TRY and make me look like I didn't understand you when there was nothing to be understood from your question.

Now to answer your actual question after you decided to present it with a game.

The technician works best in Hawken as it is right now because it allows you to heal a single target in or out of combat and still be able to put damage down range. It would be far more dangerous if it had a fire and forget healing grenade. We'd have another Incin problem where there is only benefit, and no negative consequence. Hit scan weapons might be cool, but yhen you could just spray your whole team with health rather than one at a time. A damage reduction weapon would be mostly useless. It wouldn't keep anything in combat the way that continuous healing does. And that's the point. Keeping the battle going longer and forcing substantial reactions without giving too much power.

I hppe this was sufficiant.

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#39
Panzermanathod

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Well, I wouldn''t want to see Tech removed. I'm used to it, and it has it's niche importance.

 

Also I'm pretty sure Tech without a tether would be next to useless in most cases. I've teched plenty of times, and with people either deciding to still run away from you while you heal them, or people jumping around the place (and until one of you proves you have telepathy I don't expect anyone to perfectly match someone else's movements), those times where you see a mech hide behind a wall healing others or surrounded by other mechs would be, I think, the only real major uses Tech will recieve.

 

So... how do you plan to make X a highly-valued niche mech?

 

I could be mistaken, but I think you missed his point. Or at least the point of the concept of a niche-anything.

 

Also, given how the Tech is made, I think if it didn't have some sort of constant effect it would be pretty terrible.

 

Think about it, if it was a single heal per X amount of seconds (which probably won't have a high RoF for however much it'll heal), what then? All Tech'll have for the time is the primary weapon. Even if it has an offensive alternate secondary, the switch between both beams is quick currently, but with a slow RoF it'll be that much worse at healing or defending itself. Not unless the tech gets a complete revamp with more defense and more health.



#40
AsianJoyKiller

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Protip: If I can exchange the subject of your argument and have your reasons still work out logically no matter what I exchange it with, then your answers are catch-all.
 

The technician works best in Hawken as it is right now because it allows you to heal a single target in or out of combat and still be able to put damage down range.

 

So do HoTs, AoE heals, etc. There is nothing unique about a leash that automatically makes it better for the purpose of being an equal opportunity healer and damage dealer.

 

 

It would be far more dangerous if it had a fire and forget healing grenade.

 

Exactly how so? It's curious to make a statement so conclusive when I didn't define much about the idea. There's many different ways for a healing grenade to work.

 

So what about the most basic aspect of a healing grenade (ie: A projectile that travels along an arc, and results in an AoE heal) makes it inherently more dangerous? Why can't the mechanics or numbers of it be tweaked so it's balanced?

 

 

We'd have another Incin problem where there is only benefit, and no negative consequence.

 

That's not true.

 

You can botch your aim. You can mistime. You can make the grenade result in an AoE HoT that only works when not taking damage. You could have the grenade deploy a static HoT AoE that people have to stay within to receive healing. You could have a very slow projectile. You could have the heal be so small it would only be worth it if you chained several hits. You could make the AoE falloff be severe enough that it strongly encourages direct hits over ground splashes.

 

I could go on, but I think I've made my point. This assertion is false.

 

 

Hit scan weapons might be cool, but yhen you could just spray your whole team with health rather than one at a time.

 

Unless you made the cooldown on the weapon longer than the HoT. Or made healing less effective the more targets you hit. Or made it so that only 1 HoT could be applied at a time.

 

Another false assertion, simply because you're making assumptions.

 

 

A damage reduction weapon would be mostly useless. It wouldn't keep anything in combat the way that continuous healing does. And that's the point. Keeping the battle going longer and forcing substantial reactions without giving too much power.

 

Damage reduction also keeps the battle going longer and forces substantial reactions without giving too much power. That's not unique to the healing leash. What unique trait makes the healing leash better? Why is healing in combat a better method of prolonging combat than damage reduction?

 

Also, what would make damage reduction useless? I'd think that if there were 100% damage reduction, it would be overpowered. So obviously, the very nature of it simply being damage reduction can't mean it would be useless. I need you to explain what trait damage reduction has that renders it "mostly useless".






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