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Thoughts on Turret mode?

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#1
Exomedia

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When I first picked up the game back when it appeared on steam, I personally thought the deploy-able armor plates on the C class mechs to be honestly PRETTY FRICKIN' KEWL. Immediately, my first fateful mech purchase would be the Brawler and it would become my favorite mech today. However as I played I quickly realized that HAWKEN places more of an emphasis on speed and agility over health and firepower, and since turreting essentially strips you of your mobility I always felt gimped whenever I deployed my armor plates.

 

When the devs realized this inherent flaw in turret mode, they re-examined how a C class should play. The first experiment would result in the Incinerator, whose success and popularity would lead to the revised Grenadier "Artillery [BOOM BOOM] Shot" and the G2 Raider (Ah yes, the [in]famous "Battle Turkey"/ "Chicken of DOOM").  While I readily admit the Incinerator's Heat Burst to be most certainly visually impressive, the Grenadier and G2 Raider's armor plates felt like nothing more than decorative sheets of metal drooped over their backs, never to lower and face the thunder of gunfire like the appearance would imply.

Feels like a damn shame to me really, since I've always liked turreting, but hardly use it because it strips me of mobility, which I reiterate, is a very important element in HAWKEN's bouts of violent combat.

 

What I would like to propose, are alterations that while not completely thought out, I believe would improve turreting experience and viability in combat.

 

I think we should remove or reduce the movement speed penalty, it is already agonizingly crippling to fight in turret mode with evasive dodging unavailable and moving at the speed of slug is almost utter suicide without support and or a Technician with it's Helix Repair Torch jammed up your ass; especially so when you are lumbering into the enemy team to soak damage for your team in a slugging match.

We should also be allowed to move when deploying the armor plates, in addition to being more visually impressive and satisfyingly fluid to deploy on the move; it makes you less of a sitting duck and allows heavy mechs to keep up with their faster cohorts when spearheading an assault in such a fast paced game.

 

A buff to the Brawler's fortified turret is greatly overdue; 10% damage reduction with a slow regen does not justify the loss in mobility, even with support.

 

Also may I suggest adding more distinctive visual and sound effects when projectiles hit the armor plates?

I am severely disappointed to not hear PING PING PEWs and ricochet noises with the plates down.

 

I'd also like your thoughts on this matter.

 

By the way, any redditors here? /r/hawken feels like such a grave yard in comparison to /r/warframe (another great free mmo btw, SPACE NINJAS FTW)


Edited by Exomedia, 19 April 2015 - 11:07 AM.

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#2
Rainbow_Sheep

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I think the way the devs are currently going with turret mode is working: replace it. Movement is king in HAWKEN, and even if the speed reduction was reduced, you still can't dodge or fly meaning you are still a sitting duck.

Replacing the turret mode with a more useful ability worked great with the grenadier, allowing control over when you want to extra deeps while not forcing you to lose mobility whilst doing so.

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#3
Exomedia

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If that's going to be the case then at least provide some animation on the armor plates to move into protective positions when an ability is active, rather than sit passively on the mech's back. Static armor plates are going to feel like wasted art assets to me.


Edited by Exomedia, 19 April 2015 - 11:00 AM.

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#4
Silverfire

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Vanguard's turret mode is probably the only viable one btw, with a 55% reduction to frontal damage.  The Brawler's turret mode is remotely useful with SA-Hawkins at a long range.  

 

C classes in general are very strong, the only ones with meh abilities are Brawler and Rocketeer.  Vanguard's turret mode is good. Gren and Incin and G2R need not worry.


Edited by Silverfire, 19 April 2015 - 10:58 AM.

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#5
Exomedia

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Vanguard's turret mode is probably the only viable one btw, with a 55% reduction to frontal damage.  The Brawler's turret mode is remotely useful with SA-Hawkins at a long range.  

 

C classes in general are very strong, the only ones with meh abilities are Brawler and Rocketeer.  Vanguard's turret mode is good. Gren and Incin and G2R need not worry.

 

Despite this, turreting as a Vanguard is still rather situational for a readily available ability.


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#6
M4st0d0n

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If that's going to be the case then at least provide some animation on the armor plates to move into protective positions when an ability is active, rather than sit passively on the mech's back. Static armor plates are going to feel like wasted art assets to me.

 

This.



#7
Loglino

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I usually target and kill turreted mechs because they are sitting ducks. I usually win, even when I am a class-A and I have to deal about 1,000 damage.


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#8
AsianJoyKiller

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Hey! I use the Brawler's turret mode to heal up small amounts of damage while moving.

 

That's totally useful... right?


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#9
MomOw

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Pop a repair charge an switch to turret mode...


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#10
Hellzilla

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Whenever I use a C Class with turret mode I wish it had another ability besides Turtle Power. If only in turret mode I could fly around like Gamera.



#11
Panzermanathod

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Why not have the plates add damage no matter what? Just have it less noticeable outside turret mode.

 

Really, I'm eh on Turret Mode as is.



#12
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Kittles had an excellent suggestion for the Brawler that involved having three modes for the plates: neutral mode (normal, no effect), flank mode (plates cover sides and provide damage reduction from the sides), and turtle mode (plates cover back, providing damage reduction on the back). Each of the modes would not construct walking speed but each will trade off dodging and/or boosting. Such mode switching would be strategic options that also enable tactical options as well, while not providing any sort of unoriginal buff-only effect.

In general, I think turret mode must either be replaced entirely or reworked to the extent that they have real, tangible impact that illicits an "ohshi-" response while providing actual options for both play and counter play. Existing Brawler turret mode has too many drawbacks for subpar benefits that are very boring. Same with Rocketeer. Damage amplification from being is so incredibly problematic when (1) the damage protection is low, (2) the mobility is so heavily reduced in both speed and dodge capability or lack thereof. Immediate fixes would involve removing such unnecessary and negative drawbacks (particularly damage amplification -- the mobility decrease in itself is arguably a fair drawback).

What is notable is that the Vanguard's turret is legitimately strong and can stay because it actually provides a different strategy compared to it's usual fast movement.

However, the Brawler and Rocketeer's abilities are completely lackluster if not worthless. Personally, I see value in revising the turret modes for Brawler and Rocketeer (I really love Kittle's idea for Brawler and feels like a natural extension of existing ability and art assets). I would like to see Rocketeer's ability to be either revised or conceptually reworked, perhaps into a "Gundam spam" mode or duration ability that would cause it to attack at 200%+ rate.
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#13
BuffMyRadius

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In straight TDM turret mode isn't very useful but in MA and Siege its pretty much vital to team strategy.

 

So play objective games!


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#14
Kopra

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I didn't like how they changed Artillery Turret into "press F for steroids". The shield arms should have a purpose, otherwise it's just dead weight.


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#15
Silverfire

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For the Gren it'd be nice if the ability activation gave it the battle turkey look. I want the shield arms on my Gren to do something!
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#16
CounterlogicMan

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I like the uniqueness of the turret modes that use the armor plates. With the health drop of ascension I feel the extra damage done to their rears is way to punishing when combined with a huge hit in mobility. That being said I do like the incinerator and g2 raider's abilities. The gren abilities is such a lazy change it pains me to think about how the gren's ability was actually somewhat unique before. Rather than just being a c class with the berserker ability.

 

Maybe if the new devs don't want to spend the time and effort of creating new abilities that don't use the shields. Maybe they could just decrease the damage increase to the back of turret moded mechs to make the ability more useful. 

 

That is if they want to change it at all.


Edited by CounterlogicMan, 19 April 2015 - 05:59 PM.

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#17
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I like the uniqueness of the turret modes that use the armor plates. With the health drop of ascension I feel the extra damage done to their rears is way to punishing when combined with a huge hit in mobility. That being said I do like the incinerator and g2 raider's abilities. The gren abilities is such a lazy change it pains me to think about how the gren's ability was actually somewhat unique before. Rather than just being a c class with the berserker ability.

 

Maybe if the new devs don't want to spend the time and effort of creating new abilities that don't use the shields. Maybe they could just decrease the increase the damage increase to the back of turret moded mechs to make the ability more useful. 

 

That is if they want to change it at all.

I agree that the Grenadier ability is rather lazy. If the ability was changed to be focused solely on increasing area of effect (perhaps even in exchange with a very minor damage debuff), that would provide a significant team-oriented option. I would gladly swap that +10% damage buff to another +10% to +15% area of effect increase for a total of 30% to 35% area increase.

 

As an aesthetic side note: Instead of the Grenadier going into "battle turkey" position, I would like to see perhaps another unique formation. Perhaps one that is parallel to the weapons' lengths to make the weapons look a little bigger?

 

And, further, if Rocketeer had a +x% attack speed buff, its plates could be positioned at the back, with the undersides facing enemies at 45 degrees, to really look like it's going "Gundam mode/full open" at the enemy. Ah, what a sight it would be to behold!


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#18
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#19
defekt

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A little bit of history about turret mode: it's always felt rather out of place in Hawken.

 

There were many excellent ideas suggested as replacements for turret mode waaaay back in the day from pretty much the moment the first Heavy landed -- rocket bulldozer, deployable riot shield, droppable bunker, piggyback frame, etc -- but ADH were having none of it, probably because at that time someone in ADH was very heavily invested in making turret mode relevant; however, over time that intransigence gave way to simply not having the resources to retro-fit the old turret modes, all they could do was (endlessly) tweak the numbers.  Such was the evident frustration about not being able to do anything material about turret mode ADH made a pretty big song and dance about the next Heavy, the Incin as it turned out, not having a turret mode at all.

 

I started playing the Brawler from the moment it landed, it was and remains my favourite mech, but for me it was a choice that had no relevant ability - and that never changed really.  Still loved the fairy elephant tho.  :wub:

 

The core problem with turret mode, IMV, is that Hawken is all about mobility, and dodging shots was and is always better than trying to stay put and tank damage. 


Edited by defekt, 20 April 2015 - 03:11 AM.

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#20
Flifang

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My only issue right now is I like turret mode. Not for the effects gods no I could care less, it's just I like going into that slow position with the cool view, even if all it does is make us a sitting duck. I could totally go with removing it as an ability and making it an active emote of sorts. Maybe put it in as a type of taunt I don't know. There's just something so thrilling about pretending to be a big ass ninja. It's like sneaking around in the box in metal gear solid. I also don't think turret mode fits in with the current meta of hawken, but I don't want the only time I ever get to see it to be when I press F at the carousel after a match ends. Sad to say I almost die a little inside when I see a gren go into turret mode when a match is over because I have such good memories...
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#21
Fstroke

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I was actually one of the few that thought the grenadier should have kept its turret mode. It was one of the useful ones. It was really just useless on brawler and rocketeer and still is if you ask me.

#22
eth0

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I still like the riot-shield idea as a C-class ability. Could be no boosting, but walking speed stays the same. Damage reduction from the front and smaller mechs can be pushed. Anything but plain turret mode or none-at-all.


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#23
(Unknown)1590d2c747fabd

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In straight TDM turret mode isn't very useful but in MA and Siege its pretty much vital to team strategy.

 

So play objective games!

 

100% concur... particularly the maps where the AA is over a "gazebo" so you have some overhead cover to prevent A's and B's from jumping over your head. (You can still be flanked and be snuck upon from behind.)

 

<SNIP>

There were many excellent ideas suggested as replacements for turret mode waaaay back in the day from pretty much the moment the first Heavy landed -- rocket bulldozer, deployable riot shield, droppable bunker, piggyback frame, etc. 

<SNIP

 

I would love the Vanguard to get the rocket-bulldozer ability when turreted up. So keep the walk speed and turn cap crippled but when you hit boost it should fire you straight ahead for X meters/yards (like a dash/dodge), *no controlling or turning*, consume 1/4 to 1/2 of the fuel tank (kinda like G2 raider special ability), and do mele damage to anything in the way (kinda like Incin's special ability.)


Edited by oSPANNERo, 20 April 2015 - 10:32 AM.

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#24
teeth_03

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What if we just made it so Turret mode doesn't slow you down, and instead is tied to Fuel so you could use it full speed, but not forever? You could still dodge, but it makes it so you couldn't stay in it as long.

I like the idea of turret mode, it makes the C classes unique, but implementation could use some work.

#25
AngryOgre

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I think a special ability that plays to the strength of the mech would be good. Like Gren's get a AoE boost. Makes sense. Rockets maybe get a Improved tracking salvo for X seconds? the hellfires can maybe track over or around objects? Just for a shot or two.

Brawler tho I have no idea. It's a walking fortress or it's supposed to be. I think a intresting ability for it would be like for X seconds X portion of incoming fire is deflected back at surrounding mechs who are within Z radius. Just spitballing.

Edited by AngryOgre, 20 April 2015 - 03:04 PM.


#26
Superkamikazee

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Turret mode in the current meta just isn't all that useful. Speed and mobility is king in Hawken right now. Turret mode limits that, huge vulnerability at the rear, and limited buffs in turret mode leaves C class abilities seldomly used.

Vanguard's turret mode is the only one worth using in battle, brawlers healing ability in turret mode is too slow to help, add the flak and there's really no point in being turreted.

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#27
kasei

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This is from the perspective of the Rocketeer. I absolutely love the way turret mode looks, sounds, and feels... but I only use it as a taunt or bait.

Choose:
1) Don't use turret mode, bend rockets around cover, while attempting to stay out of the line of sight of snipers.
2) Use turret mode, sit out in the open, fire rockets straight at people.

Ding, ding, ding, #1 is the correct (better) answer!

One of the Rocketeer's strong points is its hover speed, being in turret mode means being stuck on the ground. No bending rockets over cover either.

It does have one redeemable quality. The ability is so pathetic that when combined with a hologram, it can used it as bait. Drop one or two holograms in or on AA, then go to sniping location. The rockets are far too noticeable for that effect to last more than a few seconds per target, but sometimes that's all your allies need to clean up.
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#28
driedjello

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When playing most C class mechs, it is advisable to pry the F key off your keyboard.

 

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#29
LaurenEmily

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For the Gren it'd be nice if the ability activation gave it the battle turkey look. I want the shield arms on my Gren to do something!

No. The turkey is sacred. But they could come up with another 'turkey mode' for the grenadier, but different looking.


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#30
Jelooboi

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The vanguard's turret mode with its walk speed was perfect for me. It can train aim and situational awareness. In fact you're pretty much forced to be more aware but it was a fun learning experience and took in the turret vanguard as my second main now because of how fun it was piloting tank mode. It was a completely different play-style that even challenged the current meta of Hawken. 


That back damage though is wayy too punishing, I mean comon' now I've already sacrificed a huge amount of mobility isn't that enough?

 



#31
crockrocket

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While I don't think C Classes need a buff whatsoever, it would be cool to have the abilities make sense and.. I dunno, somehow still be turrety?


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#32
Kopra

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Hey! I use the Brawler's turret mode to heal up small amounts of damage while moving.
 
That's totally useful... right?


It's funny that I think Brawler's turret mode is pretty sweet, even on par with Vanguard's in usefulness. Combined with Advanced Armor Fusor you're regenerating armor pretty fast, including the ability to have radar, spam TOWs at a chokepoint and suck down repair orbs like a hoover since after a fight has finished, they're scattered here and there. It's definitely not an in-combat turret mode (hell it gets a penalty for being hit, you'd think that would discourage people from using it in combat). Very useful for repairing small amounts of armor fast provided you know what's happening around you.
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#33
TangledMantis

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I usually target and kill turreted mechs because they are sitting ducks. I usually win, even when I am a class-A and I have to deal about 1,000 damage.

 

Depending on the situation, thats exactly what ill do with my Vanguard. The other team sees a sitting duck and forgets about everyone else. I camp on a choke point and toss out orbs while my a-class team mates scramble for flanks. The other team is so giddy trying to kill the sitting duck the dont realize their about to go pop. I may get blown up, but it costs them 2-4 of their own.


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#34
StubbornPuppet

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I think turret mode suffers from a couple of problems that make what should be a useful mode be useless.

 

Unless you have a Tech and a team at your back, going into turret mode is practically suicide.  While I am all for turret mode and realize it is about using it when it's appropriate... that appropriateness went almost completely away with the changes that came with Ascension and Steam.  The game sped up, movement sped up, time to kill went down... yet the turret mode stayed just as slow as before and gained no buff to armor or its engage/disengage speed.

 

Perhaps, if it were given a small buff to front-side armor, slightly faster movement speed and a faster transition speed it would again become viable.


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#35
Jelooboi

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Depending on the situation, thats exactly what ill do with my Vanguard. The other team sees a sitting duck and forgets about everyone else. I camp on a choke point and toss out orbs while my a-class team mates scramble for flanks. The other team is so giddy trying to kill the sitting duck the dont realize their about to go pop. I may get blown up, but it costs them 2-4 of their own.

I know this feel. A lot of pilots are just so thirsty for a kill lol



#36
Nightfirebolt

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Vanguard is the only turret mode that has any use at present. 60% damage reduction plus enhanced movement speed makes it viable.

 

I have used the Brawler and Rocketeer's turret in certain circumstances, though. For instance, if I've retreated and need to repair - but I don't feel comfortable being completely vulnerable - I'll drop an orb and turret up. Gives me the ability to defend myself and have some damage reduction while I'm getting some HP back.

 

Granted, limited uses like these are, perhaps, not enough to justify keeping these abilities the way they are. Maybe this is just one more reason why #increasethespeeds was a bad idea. Or perhaps Brawler and Rocketeer's turret modes need to have their movement rate increased to be comparable to the Vanguard's.


Edited by Nightfirebolt, 28 April 2015 - 08:56 PM.


#37
(Unknown)1590d2c747fabd

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<SNIP>

Or perhaps Brawler and Rocketeer's turret modes need to have their movement rate increased to be comparable to the Vanguard's.

 

So I can understand the "why" of the suggestion but I don't think it is quite the right fit.

 

The vanguard is designed to be "rapid, close-range riot control" and "to diminish frontlines and secure ground". So, basically a fast moving armored bulldozer which I think it mostly achieves. The "tradeoff" for being fast is that its armor is only 685 and has that +20% damage from behind. About the only thing I would tweak here is that I would like to see the "boost" when in turret mode be a semi-uncontrolled, straight line "rocket powered bulldozer" melee style attack.

 

Now when I look at Rocketeer, I think its pretty clear cut. Its a "Targeted support vehicle, commonly used to discourage strategic positioning" with strengths in "Area Control and Zoning, Aerial Prowess, and Ranged Supression." So basically something you put up on a vantage point, bunker up, and shoot down on an area. Not get up close and personal. So in this case, I don't think enhancing the movement rate makes a ton of "sense" when looking at the role the Mech is supposed to play. Especially given its 730 armor. Perhaps looking at the specific turret mode and dropping the increased damage to the rear to give a 360* enhanced protection from ranged incomming "small arms" fire. *MAYBE* give it a buff to its turn cap when in turret mode so it can acquire targets better. (Think like a Air-to-Air or Air-to-Ground missile installation.)

 

Then you have Brawler. This one is interesting, its described as a "walking tank" that is a "point defender" and "spearhead vehicle, developed to penetrate frontlines with concentrated firepower." This screams to me "Slow moving pile of armor with guns sticking out everywhere". And I think that is backed up by the 800 Armor. This thing should be able to turret up and, slow as molasses, push its way into the middle of a death ball. Its gonna die eventually, just not right away and its gonna take some doing on the enemy team's part. (god forbid one of these things sets up on AA). On this one, I would again just look to the turret mode, drop the increased damage to the rear and maybe buff the overall armor enhancement (In the description its supposed to have "reactive armor") and keep the turn and movement penalties the same.

 

*NOW* before you flame me with the "HAWKENZ IZ ALLZ ABOUTZ TEH SPEEEEDZ & MOVMENETZ!!!1!1111" (Sorry for the lazy LEET speak translation.)

 

I am strictly basing my suggestions on the *WRITTEN IN GAME DESCRIPTIONS* that you can find under "Market" >> "Mechs" >> Specific Mech

 

This then leads to my usual comment: "Concerns like these, while absolutely valid, are hard to find a good 'balanced' answer to when we are walking the fine line between FPS & SIM."

 

And again, before the flaming, if the intent hadn't at least *ORIGINALLY* been for HAWKEN to be at least partially a "SIM-ish" game why write entire mech descriptions that talk about Ranged Suppression or Point Defender or "persistent dispersal of tactical formations" (Grenadier)? I *get* that the current incarnation is much closer to FPS/Arena-Shooter but when these mechs were designed and implemented the it *appears* that the lines may have been a bit more blurry.

 

Which then drives me to the question: "Are we asking the wrong question?" As in, should we take the conversation up to the next level of "Thoughts on Class C's and their relevance to the current game meta?" Are we looking at entire mechs that, outside a few skilled pilots, don't make a whole lot of sense in how the game is played today?


A little link from the "old days" because it seems I lost all my street cred with the forum reboot:

http://hawken.mirror...primary-weapon/

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Oh... and to tack on to my last post I just saw this post by Silverfire in a different thread: https://community.pl...hawken/?p=25415

 

<SNIP>
The devs need to stick to something and do it, not change their mind all the time.

 

 

In order for anything above this post to have relevance we (community) need to know/respect what they (Reloaded) have in mind for the Hawken vision. Once we have that, we can make our suggestions more relevant to the path Hawken is on.

 

Sure, while Hawken is on the Rocky Road to Dublin we can suggest which path Reloaded shoud take at a fork/crossroads but we should be wary of suggesting that we turn around and head for Ibiza instead as it may eventually either weaken our roles as "advisers" or contribute to undue churn in the product.

 

And for a little levity:

 

 


Edited by oSPANNERo, 29 April 2015 - 07:55 AM.

A little link from the "old days" because it seems I lost all my street cred with the forum reboot:

http://hawken.mirror...primary-weapon/




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