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Please for the love of all that is holy unlock the servers.

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#41
crockrocket

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Instead of eliminating MMR fitness range, maybe instead increase fitness range proportionally with distance from the average (mean) MMR. For example, players within 1 standard deviation might have a narrow fitness range of ±100 MMR while the minority of extremely-high MMR players would end up with a much wider range, reflecting the fact that their are fewer players within that range who they could potentially join. This would retain the intention of the current system, creating balanced matches between comparably skilled players, while reducing some of the problems you are experiencing.

 

I don't think the population can support anyone being locked to +/- 100


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Salvage: An Idea to Stop Leavers

Player Retention & Howken

 

[14:31] <Crafty> I know that in my balls
[14:32] <Crafty> hawken is unlike anything Ive played

 

 


#42
Amidatelion

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I've noticed an interesting pattern. As a west coast player I get the kind of smooth ping distribution that I'd expect:

  • West coast is in the 30's
  • Central in the 60's
  • East coast in the 90's
However, it looks like east coast and maybe central players are getting disproportionately high pings for west coast servers. I saw Incitatus playing on a west coast server last night with 190ish ping and I don't blame him for leaving.

GGGanjaman, a fellow Westie, also said last night he gets 150+ ping on Kansas servers but not on Dallas servers. I suggested he submit a ticket because if it's a consistent issue then I bet that Josh would love to receive a Wireshark connection log.

Do any of you east coast players experience smooth ping increase as you go from your nearby east servers to the west coast? Put another way, are you getting the 30-60-90 spread that I am? Or does every east coast player get wild 150+ ping on west coast servers?

This likely has more to do with ISP settings than anything. I can get anywhere between 90-150 on West and I know that's because my ISP is a fiddly, penny-pinching fuzzy bunny. Differences in degredations in ping over the size of a continent have less to do with how many nodes the packet has to hit than with the initial local infrastructure.

#43
_incitatus

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Maybe y'all just have worse internet on the East coast.


Oregon gave me 80 ping, and it's further away than LA.

#44
Dew

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Oregon gives me 80 ping from central US as well, while LA is always 120.


Edited by Dew, 29 July 2015 - 02:23 PM.


#45
hestoned

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at the very least the star system for server should be removed. It makes no sense. If a server is rated 1 star what does that mean? Will I be stomped or will I be doing the stomping? just go back to the way it was. Display your MMR on your screen and display the average MMR of a server in the server browser. it be all like hmmm this TDM is rated 1600 that's way too low for me but ooo look at 2100 server let's join that. Weeeeeeeeee numbers!!!

Why is this so hard.
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#46
Nept

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Because numbers are magnets.


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#47
Onstrava

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at the very least the star system for server should be removed. It makes no sense. If a server is rated 1 star what does that mean? Will I be stomped or will I be doing the stomping? just go back to the way it was. Display your MMR on your screen and display the average MMR of a server in the server browser. it be all like hmmm this TDM is rated 1600 that's way too low for me but ooo look at 2100 server let's join that. Weeeeeeeeee numbers!!!

Why is this so hard.

I always assumed that 1 star ment your mmr is too high and 3 stars was perfect. Obviously thats not right but thats how I always looked at it.


Hold on to the things you care about most, even if others see it as insignificant..If you can't be true to yourself, are you really living?

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#48
StubbornPuppet

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Yeah, the star system is... "wonky".  It is primarily dependent on your own MMR.  Secondary is the strangeness of Hawkens matchmaking MMR spread allowance (like how you can end up in a match that is 1200-2400 mmr).

 

For me, an 1950 player, the stars almost always go as follows:

  • 3 star = a match where the average MMR is about 1900-2000, but the spread is usually pretty vast (avg of 1500 - 2200).
  • 2 star = the match is mostly comprised of really high MMR players.  I am usually one of, if the the lowest ranked player in the match.  It's gonna hurt.
  • 1 star = I am usually one of the highest ranked players in the match... for a while - as just joining has now increased the SRD and allows players higher than me to join... which means even higher players can join... which means even... etc.

 

The issue with matchmaking, as I see it, really stands out in these (for me) 1 star matches: the match may be within my skill range's ability to join... but then that just opens it up to the next level... and then the next.  So, for new and low ranked players who started off joining what was, for them, a "3 star" perfect match... have their whole game ruined just because a guy like me (who isn't impressive at all) joined in and opened the door for an exponential slaughter.

 

And since there really isn't any way to rebalance the teams as players join a match-in-progress, one by one, it gets ugly really quick.


To be serious for a moment this is just a joke

 


#49
comic_sans

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Yeah, the star system is... "wonky".  It is primarily dependent on your own MMR.  Secondary is the strangeness of Hawkens matchmaking MMR spread allowance (like how you can end up in a match that is 1200-2400 mmr).

 

For me, an 1950 player, the stars almost always go as follows:

  • 3 star = a match where the average MMR is about 1900-2000, but the spread is usually pretty vast (avg of 1500 - 2200).
  • 2 star = the match is mostly comprised of really high MMR players.  I am usually one of, if the the lowest ranked player in the match.  It's gonna hurt.
  • 1 star = I am usually one of the highest ranked players in the match... for a while - as just joining has now increased the SRD and allows players higher than me to join... which means even higher players can join... which means even... etc.

 

The issue with matchmaking, as I see it, really stands out in these (for me) 1 star matches: the match may be within my skill range's ability to join... but then that just opens it up to the next level... and then the next.  So, for new and low ranked players who started off joining what was, for them, a "3 star" perfect match... have their whole game ruined just because a guy like me (who isn't impressive at all) joined in and opened the door for an exponential slaughter.

 

And since there really isn't any way to rebalance the teams as players join a match-in-progress, one by one, it gets ugly really quick.

 

On a kinda bright side though, if that room keeps filling with high level people, then we all go to that server because it's the only good one and other servers can now be used by more ho-mmr-mogenous peeps.  I am pretty sure this is the only way that about half of hawken games I can get into get started.


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#50
Flifang

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To be fair comic has a point. With my tendency to stay in a lobby for a good while I see this almost every day to some extent.


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#51
StubbornPuppet

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To be fair comic has a point. With my tendency to stay in a lobby for a good while I see this almost every day to some extent.

If only even most players did that.  Unfortunately, at the end of almost every match, 75% of the players immediately bail and the 3 players who are left, the good ones who understand the importance of starting a round with a full server, sitting on their thumbs and bored to death until they too quit and move on to the next match already in progress.  Then the cycle starts over.


To be serious for a moment this is just a joke

 


#52
Call_Me_Ishmael

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If I wait in a server hoping the skill climbs the MM stacks the team against me.

It's an art form knowing when to stay

Did I say Call Me Ishmael?

 

You should call me Luna.


#53
crockrocket

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I just hate the annoyingly frequent times where there's a 2200 lobby (which I apparently can't join with +1850? AFAIK the lock was reduced to 350?) and then the next highest lobby is like 1700. When there are 1900 lobbies it's fine unless I wanna join friends. But please don't force me into a lobby below my skill.

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Salvage: An Idea to Stop Leavers

Player Retention & Howken

 

[14:31] <Crafty> I know that in my balls
[14:32] <Crafty> hawken is unlike anything Ive played

 

 


#54
BluetoothBoy

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Locked servers aside, I would like to take a moment to remind everyone that with the switch to a new company, the servers changed as well. It would be rather odd, actually, if we noticed no change. Yes, there is room for improvement, of course, but with change comes... well, change.

 

On that note, I'd also like to point out that it is very hard to have both development and stability at the same time (ESPECIALLY when it comes to networking). If a company succeeds in doing that, well, more power to them - but simply put, it is a daunting task. We were used to the way HAWKEN played during its stable months - but to expect that stability to be maintained when switching entire game studios is unreasonable.

 

Just a few things to keep in mind. I do, however, feel that the servers could be unlocked, at least until the playerbase has grown a bit. Thing is, that will come with its fair share of problems too, such as newer players quitting entirely because they can't beat the higher-tiered players that have joined the match.


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#55
TheButtSatisfier

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(Logic)

 

Did you just come swaggerin' in here and try to use that fancy critical thinking on us? Now I'll have you know that we are a proud people with a rich tradition founded on baseless claims, and you are insulting us by waving around yer brain for everyone to see. Put that thing away before you hurt yourself. It's time you saw how things are really done around here.

 

Anyways, as we were saying:

 

Hawken is dying, we need better servers, ping is too high, and Ashburn servers aren't in Ashburn because I traced it. Why aren't the new owners of Hawken making new servers with newer, and therefore better, ping? Because they're lazy, that's why. Remove the delay, make AC universal across all mechs, make A classes slower, C classes fatter, B classes B'er, reinstate remote det on EMPs, remove remote det on secondaries, unlock MMR but only to 2600+ MMRs, release 2 new mechs and 1 new map, bring back New York servers and put them in LA, and the ping will get better. Scrubs use scanners, amen.


Edited by TheButtSatisfier, 05 August 2015 - 06:19 PM.

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8) Tech in the streets, Brawler in the sheets (8


#56
TheButtSatisfier

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I dedicate this double post to me


Edited by TheButtSatisfier, 03 August 2015 - 02:00 PM.

8) Tech in the streets, Brawler in the sheets (8


#57
TangledMantis

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Did you just come swaggerin' in here and try to use that fancy critical thinking on us? Now I'll have you know that we are a proud people with a rich tradition based on baseless claims, and you are insulting us by waving around yer brain for everyone to see. Put that thing away before you hurt yourself. It's time you saw how things are really done around here.

 

Anyways, as we were saying:

 

Hawken is dying, we need better servers, ping is too high, and Ashburn servers aren't in Ashburn because I traced it. Why aren't the new owners of Hawken making new servers with newer, and therefore better, ping? Because they're lazy, that's why. Remove the delay, make AC universal across all mechs, make A classes slower, C classes fatter, B classes B'er, reinstate remote det on EMPs, remove remote det on secondaries, unlock MMR but only to 2600+ MMRs, release 2 new mechs and 1 new map, bring back New York servers and put them in LA, and the ping will get better. Scrubs use scanners, amen.

 

Last I read, the new owners were [this] close to hiring new developers and programmers for the Hawken team. If they dont do something quickly, I think you're right - this game is going to flatline. The past couple weeks it seems like im either playing with the same old names over and over again or im playing against their alt accounts. From a business perspective, the tenured players are not enough to support this game. They need new wallets and need to get something things fixed and streamlined fast.



#58
TheButtSatisfier

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Last I read, the new owners were [this] close to hiring new developers and programmers for the Hawken team. If they dont do something quickly, I think you're right - this game is going to flatline. The past couple weeks it seems like im either playing with the same old names over and over again or im playing against their alt accounts. From a business perspective, the tenured players are not enough to support this game. They need new wallets and need to get something things fixed and streamlined fast.

 

I don't disagree, but:

 

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#59
peacecraftSLD

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I just want to play Hawken.

 

That's all I want.

 

If I can't play Hawken, I am sad.


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#60
HubbaBubba9849

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I just realized something. A kind of serious fault in design.

 

So if I go to the server list and all the available servers are out of my range, I can still get into a server by using the matchmaker. However, if I join an empty server to try to get a game going in my skill range, I'm sort of locking out all other players in my skill range from joining those other servers. Since, you know, they would have to use matchmaker to get into those servers, but now that I've started a server in their range, they always be dropped into my server.

 

Am I correct in this?


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#61
TheButtSatisfier

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Am I correct in this?

 

Yes.


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#62
Meraple

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So if I go to the server list and all the available servers are out of my range, I can still get into a server by using the matchmaker. However, if I join an empty server to try to get a game going in my skill range, I'm sort of locking out all other players in my skill range from joining those other servers. Since, you know, they would have to use matchmaker to get into those servers, but now that I've started a server in their range, they always be dropped into my server.

If all of the servers are lower than your MMR range, you'll be locking out people higher than your MMR range as well.



#63
StubbornPuppet

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I just realized something. A kind of serious fault in design.

 

So if I go to the server list and all the available servers are out of my range, I can still get into a server by using the matchmaker. However, if I join an empty server to try to get a game going in my skill range, I'm sort of locking out all other players in my skill range from joining those other servers. Since, you know, they would have to use matchmaker to get into those servers, but now that I've started a server in their range, they always be dropped into my server.

 

Am I correct in this?

Yes, but it is not a fault in the design.  It is absolutely intentional.  It is done that way to allow high ranked players to still be able to get into matches, but allows the matchmaking algorithm to take more time to figure out where those players can best be placed.


To be serious for a moment this is just a joke

 


#64
crockrocket

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Reduced server browser skill range down to +-300

 

 

Are you fuzzy bunnyng kidding me


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Salvage: An Idea to Stop Leavers

Player Retention & Howken

 

[14:31] <Crafty> I know that in my balls
[14:32] <Crafty> hawken is unlike anything Ive played

 

 


#65
StubbornPuppet

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Reduced server browser skill range down to +-300

Are you fuzzy bunnyng kidding me

 

To counter that they reduced the wait time and broadened the range by which players can join using Matchmaking.  I think it was a prudent move in order to see how that plays out.  Give it time.


To be serious for a moment this is just a joke

 


#66
crockrocket

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We just don't have the population to make a tight mmr lock viable. It's as plain and simple as that.


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Salvage: An Idea to Stop Leavers

Player Retention & Howken

 

[14:31] <Crafty> I know that in my balls
[14:32] <Crafty> hawken is unlike anything Ive played

 

 


#67
JeffMagnum

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Are you sure "reduced the wait time" wasn't an error? I'm not sure how reducing it would find better matches for players, and 330 seconds for the max time is 5.5 minutes which is substantially longer than I remember it being as of the last matchmaker update.

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#68
StubbornPuppet

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^Pretty sure.  The original reason given for the longer wait time was so they could keep high mmr players waiting a bit longer to see if something more suitable might open up.  It seems they realized that there was no difference in that extra 30 seconds or so and decided to give them a break.


To be serious for a moment this is just a joke

 


#69
Gueber

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Reasons why MMR lock needs to die.

 

1. It's suppose to create balance but in many situations It actually prevents it. Example: There is a 1900 MMR server, however the MMR spread is 1300-2350 due to someone slipping in via Queue before a higher MMR server formed. Now that lone 2350 MMR player is in there continually wrecking whatever side hes not on and it will continue to create unbalanced deathball matches until the lower MMR people get tired of it and quit. Had there been no MMR restrictions, or even had the MM system been smart enough to activately seek another 2350 to let in and place on the other team, other skilled players wouldn't have been locked out, preventing them from joining when it could have restored balance.

 

2. Not enough players. On a typical day (today for example) there may be 12 TDM servers, 9 of them Ashburn, 2 Kansas, 1 Dallas. As a west coast player I find the server performance in ashburn and kansas to be nearly unplayable and would love to get into that one dalas server. However as a 2350 MMR player odds are only 1 out of 12 servers are going to be joinable and i'm in for another horrible day stuck in ashburn. Or I could smurf it just to get a decent ping leading to new players rage quitting and even less players. Or I could just give up and not play Hawken leading to even less players. All of those options seem a bit dismal when a high level Dallas/LA server could have easily formed had there not been MMR lockouts that serve to prevent the few west coast players from banding together to fill another server.

 

3. No other skill based shooters I can think of have successfully attracted a high population with such a restrictive system in place. They have training servers for the newbs and after that everyone joins the general population. What we have is obviously not working, it is time to learn from other games and try something else. Keep MMR as a function to balance teams so all the skilled players don't end up on one side, but open up the servers so we can all play together.

 

4. People like playing with their friends even if they are at different skill levels, it's just more fun to play with friends. None of that fun to be had here when our friends have a hard time getting into the same servers.


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#70
WmMoneyFrmMissouri

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Nobody plays LA servers because I've scared them off by leaving smoking pikes of rubble and steel in my wake. One less server cluster you can hide from me in merl!!! Muahahahaha! ;)

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#71
DieselCat

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Reasons why MMR lock needs to die.

 

1. It's suppose to create balance but in many situations It actually prevents it. Example: There is a 1900 MMR server, however the MMR spread is 1300-2350 due to someone slipping in via Queue before a higher MMR server formed. Now that lone 2350 MMR player is in there continually wrecking whatever side hes not on and it will continue to create unbalanced deathball matches until the lower MMR people get tired of it and quit. Had there been no MMR restrictions, or even had the MM system been smart enough to activately seek another 2350 to let in and place on the other team, other skilled players wouldn't have been locked out, preventing them from joining when it could have restored balance.

 

2. Not enough players. On a typical day (today for example) there may be 12 TDM servers, 9 of them Ashburn, 2 Kansas, 1 Dallas. As a west coast player I find the server performance in ashburn and kansas to be nearly unplayable and would love to get into that one dalas server. However as a 2350 MMR player odds are only 1 out of 12 servers are going to be joinable and i'm in for another horrible day stuck in ashburn. Or I could smurf it just to get a decent ping leading to new players rage quitting and even less players. Or I could just give up and not play Hawken leading to even less players. All of those options seem a bit dismal when a high level Dallas/LA server could have easily formed had there not been MMR lockouts that serve to prevent the few west coast players from banding together to fill another server.

 

3. No other skill based shooters I can think of have successfully attracted a high population with such a restrictive system in place. They have training servers for the newbs and after that everyone joins the general population. What we have is obviously not working, it is time to learn from other games and try something else. Keep MMR as a function to balance teams so all the skilled players don't end up on one side, but open up the servers so we can all play together.

 

4. People like playing with their friends even if they are at different skill levels, it's just more fun to play with friends. None of that fun to be had here when our friends have a hard time getting into the same servers.

 

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This ^^

 

*+

 


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#72
Flifang

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I feel like if the mmr lock was removed, anyone who wishes to change servers because they didn't enjoy themselves for whatever reason, would be able to get into that new server that much easier because of the lack of mmr restriction. Maybe if the star system was reworked to say what server needs a person in your range the most. Just have mm put people into games for the best balance.




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