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Dev Update - October 25

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#1
CZeroFive

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Hey folks,

 

CZeroFive here. I’m one of the gameplay programmers for Hawken and I have some exciting stuff to share with you today.

 

I would like to give you an update and get your opinions on upcoming changes to the console game, and share with you some upcoming updates to the way Primary Weapons, Internals, and Items work.

 

We’re going to be reintroducing a few elements to the console game, namely, the ability to switch out your primary weapons, adding back in the internals system from PC, and adding back in the items system from PC.

 

Let’s begin with a bit of an explanation of each:

 

Primary Weapons

 

Historically, on PC, Mechs have a default Primary, and an Alternate and Prestige Primary Weapon, both of which were available for purchase with MC at any time, and then upon achieving appropriate mech ranks, the weapon would also be purchasable with HC. Internally, this led to a few problems - we could not simply add a weapon easily to a Mech that we wanted to have the weapon available, beyond 2 choices. There were also parts of code that tied into the alternate and prestige weapon system, which limited your choices to simply those two weapons.

 

On Console, Mechs had only a single primary weapon; and no other ones to change out. This is good in theory, but dull in terms of overall gameplay. In a Mech shooter, you expect to be able to customize some of the weapons. Lore-wise, the weapons were basically bolted onto the Mechs when they were created, and it just did not make sense that you could not change them.

 

Players checking the game out from the PC side were confused as to why we did this, and we don’t blame them - the system worked in theory, but that left the progression options restricted. It would also set a bad precedent for when we would eventually move the console codebase over to the PC codebase, as the data would be largely incompatible.

 

Fast-forward to post-console launch. The initial goal was to enable more weapons to be available on every mech… at first, it was 5 weapons total, with 2 of them being alternate and prestige, and those were given for free upon reaching mech ranks x and y… whereas the others would be purchasable at any time for MC or HC. This, as you can imagine, had a few problems that we encountered during development.

  1. The PC game and Console game somewhat diverged from each other in terms of design direction.

  2. We wanted to unify the two codebases together, without creating imbalances for legacy PC players that had weapons that were not typically available.

  3. The weapons that have been available in console have been just one weapon per mech. It would make a lot more sense to just enable the PC weapons as an ‘extra’ weapon as opposed to a prestige or secondary weapon.

  4. There would be multiple issues of enabling more than a few weapons per Mech from a balance standpoint. We simply did not have enough weapons to support that many options per Mech.

We also encountered issues awarding the Alternate and Prestige weapons for free:

  1. The underlying codebase did not have a means for awarding anything automatically on a per-mech basis, and we’re working with some internal restrictions for ‘free’ purchases.

  2. We were going to award everything at a discounted price upon hitting the appropriate rank. However, this discount, once we applied it to one instance of the weapon, would apply to ALL Mechs for that weapon, and again we hit a technical limitation during development where we had to scrap the idea of awarding things for free. We could’ve made multiple offers for each Mech, but that would be a nightmare to maintain, and there would be an issue with multiple offers pointed at the same game item due to how the initial system was coded years ago.

 

So we agreed on a final idea that would work for everyone: Mechs will have one or more Primary weapons available for purchase at all times with HC or MC.  All mechs will have just 1 secondary weapon.  The entire notion of Prestige and Alternate weapons goes away, since if we’re all honest, the terminology was confusing.

 

There will be some mechs that only have 1 primary and 1 secondary weapon, largely these will be mechs that are unique in terms of loadout.

 

Oddly enough, this is close enough to PC as it stands that it will work ‘out of the box’ with the dataset from PC when we do end up merging in the codebase for PC.

 

Additionally, over time, we will be able to release more weapons for use with certain Mechs; this will be based on community feedback and balance concerns raised internally and externally.

 

*If* “prestige” and “alternate” weapons are reintroduced in the future, they will likely be “grindable-only” items, but we would need to do work to support per-mech awards as that is not currently integrated.

 

Below is a teaser (subject to change) of the interface used to switch out weapons. We picked a Mech that has a community favorite for the loadouts (also subject to change):

 

VaxIwoW.jpg

 
 

Internals

The internals system from PC will be making a return to the console game in the same form that it is on PC right now, with a few tweaks. For those who don’t know what the internals system from PC is, the internals system is a system where you can slot up to 6 ‘internals’ into your Mech, each with their own benefit. Some internals may take up more ‘slots’ than others. Some  internals may come at a cost to other functionality, however, largely they will be mostly positive to start out. They’re the same items used in the console game right now for individual mech loadouts.

 

Below are the tweaks we’ve made to the console version of the internals system:

 

Tech Groups will be going away and instead will be replaced with a notion that you cannot equip multiple internals of the same type, e.g. you cannot equip both the basic and advanced variants of the same internal.

 

There’s a new type of internal we are going to be trying out: the 4-slot internal. These are mainly in place to balance the repair kit and extractor initially. Historically, the repair kit and extractor internals were far too powerful. They allowed you to receive too much self healing. We danced around the idea for a bit, and largely the community spoke and said these internals are simply too powerful. So, instead, we made some changes to the way these internals work directly instead of beating around the bush trying to make them work:

 

Here are the new stats for the Basic, “Normal”, Advanced and new Expert Internal of these types:

 

Basic Extractor: 2%

Extractor: 3.5%

Advanced Extractor: 10%

Expert Extractor: 15%

 

Basic Repair Kit: 5%

Repair Kit: 10%

Advanced Repair Kit: 15%

Expert Repair Kit: 20%

 

The goal is to allow for these internals to fit their intended roles better. For example, in Siege mode, you may be more inclined to use an extractor internal over a repair kit internal as it applies to energy units and not just your own personal armor.

 

The internals from PC will all largely stay the same benefit/stat wise unless otherwise noted above.

 

We are also experimenting with the concept of positive-negative internals. Here is a picture of the single new internal that we will be adding to the console patch (subject to balancing concerns, of course):

 

1EtScai.jpg

 
 
 

Items

 

The items system from PC is making a return to consoles as well! This system will allow you to fully customize the two items that are equipped in your Mech to any item that’s currently in the game. Items are unlocked per-mech just like internals.

 

Below are the changes we’ve made to the console version of the items system:

 

We are now making each item a 3-slot item. This is so you are more strategic in your choice of items. The other, lower slot items exist as a cost-effective way of getting an item you want (in example, if don’t have enough MC/HC to afford a higher item for this mech, you can unlock a lower one.)

 

Unlike internals, they do not follow tech group or one-per-mech rules. This is subject to change with feedback.

This includes the new items such as the Shock Turret in the available choices for Mech loadouts. Speaking of which, here is a picture of that item.

 

qdHkCir.jpg

 

Feedback Needed!

First, we’d like to thank you all for being supportive of Hawken. We’re glad that you guys have been voicing your concerns, and we would like you to continue to do so.

We’re hoping to get more feedback on these upcoming changes from both PC and Console players, so please post your feedback in this thread.

 

Thank you very much for your continued support and love of Hawken, and we hope to bring all of these updates to you soon!

Until next time,

 

CZeroFive


Edited by CZeroFive, 25 October 2016 - 12:51 PM.

  • (PS4)peacecraftSLD, (PS4)Emagas92, (PS4)kdesmo and 1 other like this

#2
(PS4)peacecraftSLD

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Great to see an update :)

 

 

So I have some concerns with this, mostly with the items, but overall will need to try it out when released. My concerns are we are going to see a lot of the mechs running the same loadouts of weapons, internals and items. I think we may need to just add more weapons, internals, and items to make it all come together. By making only a few mechs have the Air Compressor internal, the EOC repeater was now great to use again cause most mechs needed to stay on the ground. I think we are going to see the EMP spam again like we see in the PC. Those are some concerns but ultimately will need to see the changes and try them out.

 

I do like the 4 slot internal idea and internals with negative effects on it. Just add more internals cause I want to try out combinations on my mech like back in the day.


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#3
(PS4)Emagas92

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Thank you for the update. Here are my thoughts:

 

Although I understand the issues you encountered while modifying how primary weapons are handled, the solution you settled on continues to leave mech progression by the wayside. Console players currently get no sense of achievement when they attain a new mech rank, because there is literally no purpose for these ranks at the moment. I'm not sure if the problem with per-mech rewards pertains only to weapons, but if it's possible I think elite skins should at least be made free unlocks with mech ranks for the G1 variants as they are on PC. I would also consider adding emblems or at least modifying the (seemingly?) unobtainable co-op victory ones as G2 rank rewards.

 

Regarding internals: I'm glad to see that they'll be making a return. By removing the tech groups, I assume you mean that all internals will be available from pilot level 1? Although this is, in all fairness, a good idea to help keep the playing field even between newcomers and vets, it again dilutes any sense of progression. Starting with everything might be more balanced, but it also reduces player retention, which is something I think should definitely be a priority. 

 

Additionally, I'd like to know how internals that didn't exist on PC (advanced replenisher, basic air compressor, etc.) will be implemented, specifically their slot usage. Will mid-level internals (air compressor), which was considered "advanced" on PC, be reduced to 2 slots? Or will it remain 3 slots, and the actually named-so advanced version be made to require 4 slots? I'd also like to know if internals which are currently unavailable on console (evasive device, for example) will be re-enabled, and if they'll be following the universal 3-tier system (basic/regular/advanced) you followed with the other ones which previously didn't. 

 

As for heavy armor: I wouldn't use it, personally, even if that was the basic variant. Even the brawler, who would gain the most and lose the least from it, would suffer more than it would benefit, in my opinion. I'm not sure anything would be worth that much of a speed decrease. I think a better idea for a negative to this item -- numbers TBD -- would be fuel-consumption when dodging. This would not only make it viable, but it could actually act as a competitor for air-compressor, which uses the same mechanic (which, in turn, should hopefully make it a relatively easy thing to implement).

 

I'm not sure how altering items to take up 3 slots at all levels increases strategy; in fact, I'd say it decreases it. I get that you'd only be able to have 2 items maximum, but that's only 1 fewer than was possible on PC, and the PC made you pay for those 3 items in that you could only use each of them once. Struggling with limited space is more engaging than simply needing more money. With your model, the only logical choices are to save up for 2 different tier 3 items or 2 of the same item in tier 2 and 3. Unless, of course, items will be unlocked with pilot level. (This seems to be a recurring theme.)

 

I'm not sure how useful shock turrets would be based on the description. Do they only do damage? Do they only affect mechs on the same surface as the one it's placed on? It's a neat idea, but what I'm imagining right now is underwhelming.


Edited by (PS4)Emagas92, 26 October 2016 - 04:24 PM.


#4
(PS4)peacecraftSLD

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For more insight, see if you can check out the PC thread for this update as there are good questions and answers in there for this.



#5
CZeroFive

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Thank you for the update. Here are my thoughts:

 

Although I understand the issues you encountered while modifying how primary weapons are handled, the solution you settled on continues to leave mech progression by the wayside. Console players currently get no sense of achievement when they attain a new mech rank, because there is literally no purpose for these ranks at the moment. I'm not sure if the problem with per-mech rewards pertains only to weapons, but if it's possible I think elite skins should at least be made free unlocks with mech ranks for the G1 variants as they are on PC. I would also consider adding emblems or at least modifying the (seemingly?) unobtainable co-op victory ones as G2 rank rewards.

 

Regarding internals: I'm glad to see that they'll be making a return. By removing the tech groups, I assume you mean that all internals will be available from pilot level 1? Although this is, in all fairness, a good idea to help keep the playing field even between newcomers and vets, it again dilutes any sense of progression. Starting with everything might be more balanced, but it also reduces player retention, which is something I think should definitely be a priority. 

 

Additionally, I'd like to know how internals that didn't exist on PC (advanced replenisher, basic air compressor, etc.) will be implemented, specifically their slot usage. Will mid-level internals (air compressor), which was considered "advanced" on PC, be reduced to 2 slots? Or will it remain 3 slots, and the actually named-so advanced version be made to require 4 slots? I'd also like to know if internals which are currently unavailable on console (evasive device, for example) will be re-enabled, and if they'll be following the universal 3-tier system (basic/regular/advanced) you followed with the other ones which previously didn't. 

 

As for heavy armor: I wouldn't use it, personally, even if that was the basic variant. Even the brawler, who would gain the most and lose the least from it, would suffer more than it would benefit, in my opinion. I'm not sure anything would be worth that much of a speed decrease. I think a better idea for a negative to this item -- numbers TBD -- would be fuel-consumption when dodging. This would not only make it viable, but it could actually act as a competitor for air-compressor, which uses the same mechanic (which, in turn, should hopefully make it a relatively easy thing to implement).

 

I'm not sure how altering items to take up 3 slots at all levels increases strategy; in fact, I'd say it decreases it. I get that you'd only be able to have 2 items maximum, but that's only 1 fewer than was possible on PC, and the PC made you pay for those 3 items in that you could only use each of them once. Struggling with limited space is more engaging than simply needing more money. With your model, the only logical choices are to save up for 2 different tier 3 items or 2 of the same item in tier 2 and 3. Unless, of course, items will be unlocked with pilot level. (This seems to be a recurring theme.)

 

I'm not sure how useful shock turrets would be based on the description. Do they only do damage? Do they only affect mechs on the same surface as the one it's placed on? It's a neat idea, but what I'm imagining right now is underwhelming.

 

Mech progression is still going to be important for unlocking cosmetic parts. We agree that it's a bit lackluster and it's something that we want to revisit.

 

Most of the internals from PC will keep their slot size. You need to be sacrificing something for those 4-slot internals.

 

We don't feel it's fair that we would put internals locked behind pilot level, instead the progression will be that you have enough HC/MC to purchase it outright. We believe our community can do math and figure out how much they need to get the next internal for their mech.

 

Heavy Armor will be seeing some tweaks, currently it's a bit powerful for the downside on class C mechs.

 

As I posted in the PC thread, items were a part strategic, part technical decision to implement. A person in the PC thread suggested we should add longer cooldowns to higher level items to compensate for the amount of charges the items have. I think that's pretty fair, and I do agree it needs revisiting.

 

Hopefully that answers / addresses some of your concerns.



#6
(PS4)F0ppery

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I'm really liking how people seem to be keeping balance in mind. a LOT of games just don't even though it's absolutely crucial to a good game with a long life span.

 

Since every mech has a certain role I was thinking it might be good to make certain weapons and internals available only to certain mechs. Like the internals and weapons available for a particular mech will be to supplement it's role in the game. Otherwise I think everyone will have the "auto-repair" internal and/or heat dispersal internal equipped on all of their mechs. For instance, in my opinion, the assault mech is pretty overpowered with it's dual miniguns and heat dispersal internal. pretty sure it auto repairs as well. which is kind of ridiculous.

That being said, I like the idea of weapon options being limited for each mech.  

 

Also, if you guys want ideas for new weapons, please consider checking out classic vehicular combat games such as twisted metal and vigilante 8. those games were AWESOME. mainly the later games in the series had more variety.


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#7
(PS4)justmarionette

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to:

CZeroFive

 

- first -

it's pretty amazing, i mean an update and of course, ?????N, but please, tell me - when we can try all of this stuff?

- second -

is all this things will be sells for the mech credits, like additional skins/camo?

(this one will be so bad for me :sad: )

- third - 

will camo skins always sells for MC, or for example, on birthday we can choose/buy it for Hawken Credits?

 

P.S.

cuz, you know, i'm a family man, and haven't much time to play (few hours at night) but after few days, i just fall in love in your game, and don't even want to hear about "big-major-other-games".






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