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P2W Doesn't Exist In Hawken. An Experiment.

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#41
crockrocket

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My main issue is that this isn't going to change anyone's mind. Mostly everyone here knows that you CAN do well with a default assault, or a default CRT, or whatever. 

 

The people that don't believe this to be true aren't going to be convinced otherwise by this experiment, ESPECIALLY with it being conducted by one of the best players in Hawken.


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[14:31] <Crafty> I know that in my balls
[14:32] <Crafty> hawken is unlike anything Ive played

 

 


#42
comic_sans

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To me this just looks like publicizing a smurf's run to 2600 since what it proves provides only a dubious counterargument to the p2w angle; basically, nobody's going to care if one of the best players in the game does it because it would be immediately assumed that you knew the game well enough to play around any imbalance that the person you're trying to convince perceives, combined with that person comparing your skill and theirs.  Sorry, dude.

 

I do agree, though, that p2w does not apply to hawken and that something should be done about keeping even the smallest-minded of people from applying this label casually.


Edited by comic_sans, 07 April 2015 - 06:02 PM.

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#43
RespawningJesus

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You're not going to change anyone's mind of the game being P2W or not. If they are already thinking illogically, they aren't going to listen to reason.

People already know that the game is not P2W, and that skill will trump everything. P2W discussions will always pop up when a game is free to play.

#44
Mac_n_Steez

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#45
FRX23

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I hope you do that more for the fun than for the science.

Hawken is known to be not P2W.

All people that say it is, are just misinformed and as they will probably not see it, they don't deserve this demo.



#46
WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW

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All of the problems other people have mentioned are one that I would include but I would word them doubly strong.

In fact, I find this thread both extremely aggravating and extremely worthless. I strongly disapprove of this experiment, its intents, its reasoning, and its moral premises.

Your data, even in the context of trying to prove Hawken is not P2W, plus your definition of P2W, is not meaningful except to say that you as an individual can achieve a specific feat.

Given an objective of deconstructing stigma, this fails because it does not account for others definitions of P2W. It also fails to account for how people develop the idea that Hawken is P2W, so even proving Hawken is not P2W in any definition barring extremes that define P2W as having no payment elements (only grind elements) is relatively impactless.

That is to say, showing that you can "make it" without paying shows nothing else and it's completely irrelevant to any practical considerations of why new players dislike Hawken when they use the term "P2W".

It's also a fairly abhorrent, elitist concept to see exist in the first place and it runs very closely to ideas that since one can name someone who "made it" under extremely oppressive socio-economic conditions justifies those oppressive socio-economic conditions. (EDIT: I think the logical fallacy that exists in this sort of situation is similarly applicable here but it is hyperbole to compare it to inequalities existing in socio-economic contexts.)

This has been an extremely short-sighted thread and I'm happy to see others pointing out how utterly flawed and meaningless this is.

At least you claim to try to teach those other players. It is the one redeeming factor of this OP.

 

EDIT: I'm very disappointed that some posters here think of this thread as relevant or claim that others are thinking illogically for thinking of Hawken as P2W when, for the most part, people simply mean to say "excessive grind".

 

Somehow, players are supposed to " build skill " with a mech they doesn't mesh with their basic play style? Do you consider that new players might be different and have a better time, first having fun, and through that, learning?

 

EDIT2: I have overreacted here. However, I would recommend reconsidering trying to prove Hawken is or is not P2W. (1) It is not something that is really worth disputing, because of (2) most people don't actually think of Hawken being P2W OR they use P2W as the closest approximation to what they mean.


Edited by WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW, 08 April 2015 - 10:53 AM.

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#47
Nept

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It's also a fairly abhorrent, elitist concept to see exist in the first place and it runs very closely to ideas that since one can name someone who "made it" under extremely oppressive socio-economic conditions justifies those oppressive socio-economic conditions.

 

I don't think that's a great analogy.



#48
defekt

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Hm.  Over-egging it by more than just a fraction there, W~.  The guy meant well.  You're responding as if the guy just took a deep and meaningful dump in your favourite slippers!  His only crime, if I might say, is perhaps not thinking it through.  We're all guilty of that from time to time.  :sleep:


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#49
WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW

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Sigh, I'm on mobile and I screwed up my post.

The analogous quality is putting an irrelevant, non-universal fact on a pedestal and pushing it as a generic quality to be aspired toward to justify the negation of a claim that in the first place does not even question whether something is "possible" or a claim that "no one can do X".

EDIT: You're right, I'm probably overreacting.

Edited by WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW, 08 April 2015 - 10:20 AM.

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#50
comic_sans

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It's also a fairly abhorrent, elitist concept to see exist in the first place and it runs very closely to ideas that since one can name someone who "made it" under extremely oppressive socio-economic conditions justifies those oppressive socio-economic conditions.

 

I feel like this is a bit of a hyperbole to apply to p2w systems since they're more of an incovenience in an unfair videogame than "extremely oppressive socio-economic conditions".  Rest of the post is spot on, though.


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#51
Nept

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Yeah, there are some vague similarities, but I think the comparison breaks down quite quickly and only serves to over-dramatize the post.  In my opinion, of course.



#52
WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW

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Yep, you're right. I think the logic applied is pretty much the same but materially speaking, there is nothing that really matters I agree. However, I do believe that this sort of attempt to prove that so-and-so is P2W or not serves no practical purpose.

 

EDIT: 0f0bfe2b30.png Actually, I don't feel I've overreacted particularly much. That last column combined with previous posts in the thread really does not make me think of anything besides people accepting systematic difficulties, challenges, and obstructions as if the world is meant to work in that manner or as if there is some divine doctrine that is being exercised. Seeing resemblances in the logic is really quite aggravating me. I will refrain from posting more.


Edited by WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW, 08 April 2015 - 11:00 AM.

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#53
Fstroke

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I think this is just an excuse to pubstomp.....for science.

Its not really an experiment either.

Subjective as it may be pay2win has to be defined somehow. Really you have to look at the elements of the game. Pay2win is typically defined as when you can purchase something only for real money, and by definition that item would have to objectively be better than what you could purchase with in game currency. This doesn't exist in HAWKEN.

But then you could interpret pay2grind as granting an advantage and being a type of pay2win model. This can exist in games where all items are available for free but this is actually the subjective component of pay2win claims. How much of a grind is there? Is there a vertical progression where more experience = better gear.

For the most part HAWKEN has strived to remain horizontal in progression. Could you say that all prestige weapons are better than starting weapons for all mechs? In many cases no. The idea is they change the play style of the mech, not give it more power. So really in that regard paying money just gives you options. Can we say that's more powerful? It would be a hard sell.

But then you might think of the higher tier internals locked behind a pay/grind wall. While that may be annoying there is still no way to pay through pilot exp level so you could buy those things all you want but you won't be able to use them until you gain enough experience.

Taking what you have heard in this thread from others are you still going to continue with this? I think you have seen enough debate over how much information you can realistically extract from this little scenario.

The fact of the matter is this is inconsequential. Its all about perception. People will still claim pay2win regardless because those people will not take personal responsibility in where they need to improve and are just pointing fingers.
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