Before the PC relaunch...
#1
Posted 05 April 2017 - 11:26 AM
We all know it's an issue, and I'm surprised that ordlording has been addressed but scanners haven't. I'm tired of people being ostracized (including by myself) for using the item, and I'm more tired of seeing them in games.
I'm pretty sure they can't just flat out remove them because of some legal issue with them having been purchable with HC, and I don't think any rebalancing of what is literally a deployable wallhack is going fix the issue.
I think the best option would be to rework the item to do something different but thematically similar. Like instead of it's current function, it doubled the radar range of mechs standing in it's radius or something. This is just an example, I'm not super picky about what it would do as long as it's not as broken as it's current iteration.
I believe dealing with scanners is something that would be healthy for the game, and would probably please most of the veteran players. I really hope a solution can be added to the PC relaunch.
#2
Posted 05 April 2017 - 12:31 PM
How about vote-ban system, before a game launched, people in the server can vote and ban certain things like scanner, if it is voted as available...we still have chance to leave before the count down ends.
Donno if it's easier for implementation, just a thought.
#3
Posted 05 April 2017 - 12:48 PM
- claisolais likes this
#4
Posted 05 April 2017 - 01:17 PM
Before the PC relaunch...
I thought it was a forum game, no I feel clickbaited.
Before the PC relaunch...
... Trump will be president
If pple said that back in the great silence V1 (even V2), I would have had a good laugh.
- claisolais, Tom_Neverwinter and DemitronPrime like this
#5
Posted 05 April 2017 - 02:23 PM
How about vote-ban system, before a game launched, people in the server can vote and ban certain things like scanner, if it is voted as available...we still have chance to leave before the count down ends.
Donno if it's easier for implementation, just a thought.
While this would be a cool thing to implement in general, I feel that it would and should be pretty low on their priority list. Furthermore, your suggestion is more of a band-aid, whereas I'd rather address the source of the problem which is the scanner itself. And if they did implement it, I don't see them adding it as a feature to general servers. I'd like to see the entirety of the Hawken playerbase bask in the glory of scanner-free gameplay.
Honestly they could even just "temporarily disable" scanner till the rework it, like when they disabled the tech's repair torch when it got buggy. Except in this case it's not buggy, but very imbalanced.
Edited by Morquedeas, 05 April 2017 - 02:23 PM.
#6
Posted 05 April 2017 - 02:38 PM
While this would be a cool thing to implement in general, I feel that it would and should be pretty low on their priority list. Furthermore, your suggestion is more of a band-aid, whereas I'd rather address the source of the problem which is the scanner itself. And if they did implement it, I don't see them adding it as a feature to general servers. I'd like to see the entirety of the Hawken playerbase bask in the glory of scanner-free gameplay.
Honestly they could even just "temporarily disable" scanner till the rework it, like when they disabled the tech's repair torch when it got buggy. Except in this case it's not buggy, but very imbalanced.
My suggestion only works if they dont want to rework on scanners --If we dont take competitive into consideration, scanner on its own is a totally viable design.
Even if they'd change something about scanner, it wont be early then the PC relaunch.
In fact, after seeing Howken mechs review, I don't think I'll be worrying about scanner after relaunch hits.
#7
Posted 05 April 2017 - 03:11 PM
You call it a wall hack?
So you dont like it that people can see when you you're walking, but as a game mechanic, you can see them when they are boosting.. through walls.. and thats ok? If you want to start talking about unfair game mechanics?
A scanner is special radar. Its not anymore unrealistic than being visible while boosting even though you're out of sight.
And I guess if you want to talk about wallhacks, lets bring up the predator ability. Totally not a wallhack at all!!
I say leave the scanner as it is, stop complaining, and get gud.
That or just make the scanner a single red dot on enemy radar the way the scrambler is.
- Charcoal likes this
#8
Posted 05 April 2017 - 03:31 PM
You call it a wall hack?
So you dont like it that people can see when you you're walking, but as a game mechanic, you can see them when they are boosting.. through walls.. and thats ok? If you want to start talking about unfair game mechanics?
A scanner is special radar. Its not anymore unrealistic than being visible while boosting even though you're out of sight.
And I guess if you want to talk about wallhacks, lets bring up the predator ability. Totally not a wallhack at all!!
I say leave the scanner as it is, stop complaining, and get gud.
That or just make the scanner a single red dot on enemy radar the way the scrambler is.
It gets called wallhacks as a shorthand because the advantage it provides versus its cost are immense. For 1 item you get perfect vision in a very large area and intermittent vision of stealthed mechs. Placed on the other side or inside of a wall, the enemy cannot counter it.
Yes, you can be seen while boosting (and hovering and firing and generating heat). That's a trade-off, just like firing. You'll notice veterans stop boosting well before they anticipate encountering an enemy to maintain radar silence for as long as possible. You boost to get into position, not to charge into a fight, unless you're damn sure you're gonna win it. If you get spotted, that's your fault, not because someone dropped an item 5 minutes ago.
Yes, Predator gets literal wallhacks, but its at the cost of an ability and the capability of hovering, dodging, boosting and firing. And it only extends so far, beyond which the predator is hard-pressed to see anything. And loses it if it gets nicked or generates heat. It is for the most part a positioning mechanic, which is why top-tier Preds are duelists, not stalkers.
Every other comparable ability or item has drawbacks to its use. Placed correctly, the scanner has none.
People who are plenty gud are in agreement here and the scanner is banned from comp accordingly.
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#9
Posted 05 April 2017 - 05:48 PM
Pulses at around 3sec are probably appropriate as a mech can move a fair distance in 3sec.
Still a scanner, but less op.
#10
Posted 05 April 2017 - 06:00 PM
Wait, you complain about this, but you don't care that Pred Mines can't be popped by explosives?!
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#11
Posted 05 April 2017 - 06:01 PM
I'd more likely make it the same symbol as a turret rather than a red dot.That or just make the scanner a single red dot on enemy radar the way the scrambler is.
I'd also like to see stepping on scramblers and scanners do damage to the mech that steps on it, even just 5hp.
I'd like to see stepping on turrets to damage to the mech that steps on it, perhaps 20-30hp (this is more a priority than scanners/scramblers).
I feel like this is a realistic expectation (turrets are full of munitions after all) and will make Preds think twice about walking over as it would de-cloak them,
and if you drop a turret an an experienced pilot immediately walks over it, at least its not a total waste.
I think the options should be 1) shoot the turret, 2) cop the stomp damage, or 3) move the fight away.
- Charcoal likes this
#12
Posted 06 April 2017 - 06:24 AM
Wait, you complain about this, but you don't care that Pred Mines can't be popped by explosives?!
We complain about that too, just not in this thread. Also un-poppapbe pred mines don't give maphacks to the whole team.
RLD can literally just make the scanner duration 1-2 seconds and leave it IMO. That would leave it useful enough to consider using but weak enough that it isn't straight broken at least until a rework can be implemented.
#13
Posted 06 April 2017 - 07:09 AM
#14
Posted 06 April 2017 - 09:30 AM
if you play long enough, you become a scanner yourself. You know where people will be, movement they will do, then you yourself become questionable as a player :D, it's all about positioning. Example: I was in discord with Woods13, we were all on mic, he did not hit anything, boost, jump or do anything to give his position away, but I knew where he was and where he was coming from on Last Eco[ A rather large map].
Now he didn't assume ''hack'' but he did question ''how did you know''.
It's pretty much having a 6th sense when you play too much. The item itself ''scanner'' is countered with a scrambler, so it's not like it can't be stopped but just people wouldn't prefer having those type of items cause of their play style.
- Charcoal likes this
#15
Posted 06 April 2017 - 10:21 AM
#16
Posted 06 April 2017 - 11:34 AM
Wait, you complain about this, but you don't care that Pred Mines can't be popped by explosives?!
While I agree that invincible Pred mines are an issue, and being able to hide them inside map textures possibly even more so, I don't think they are quite as much of an over-arching issue as scanners are.
I think they just need to change to pulse instead of constant awareness.
Pulses at around 3sec are probably appropriate as a mech can move a fair distance in 3sec.
Still a scanner, but less op.
RLD can literally just make the scanner duration 1-2 seconds and leave it IMO. That would leave it useful enough to consider using but weak enough that it isn't straight broken at least until a rework can be implemented.
What I'm trying to say is that scanner, with any variation of its current mechanics, will be impossible to balance. Being able to reveal enemies on the radar yourself will always be bad for the game. Just rework the scanner to do something completely different, rather than try to balance it as it is, which I don't think will ever work.
#17
Posted 06 April 2017 - 06:34 PM
It called spotting (Q).
A player on my team was nearly hackused once ie "No way you could have known I was there..."
but I had spotted the guy, so my team knew exactly where he was THROUGH TEH WALLS OMG!
People forget this can be very powerful in a team.
IMO, leave scanner as a scanner and even whole team visible, but either make it expire quickly
(although more than 2-3sec) or make its detail less by reducing range or only showing periodic results.
Bump it out to 4sec ping and you only see the enemy for one point in time during the average duration of a fight.
I also support an anti-scanner internal (despite peoples objections to adding items to counter items)
as you could have a stealth mech equipped with it, and bring it out whenever the enemy is using scanners.
Then you have to decide whether you want to drop 2-3 slots on staying hidden or using them on orb-sucking
or speed/defense, etc.
#18
Posted 06 April 2017 - 06:45 PM
To elaborate on that, I think you should have an internal that only stops you appearing on scanners when walking.I also support an anti-scanner internal
You would still appear when doing all the other things that would show you on radar.
I think it is a valid strategy and I would definitely put it on a 2nd Infiltrator or Pred, etc just for ambushing players that think a scanner would hand them the advantage.
I've also suggested internals to reduce duration of EMP recovery for those EMPs-everywhere matches and an internal that reduces the effect of debuff weapons like Mama and Redox.
Give people options and let the purists choose not to use them (and build up their salt levels).
#19
Posted 07 April 2017 - 12:15 AM
We already have an element of team wide map hacks.
It called spotting (Q).
A player on my team was nearly hackused once ie "No way you could have known I was there..."
but I had spotted the guy, so my team knew exactly where he was THROUGH TEH WALLS OMG!
People forget this can be very powerful in a team.
IMO, leave scanner as a scanner and even whole team visible, but either make it expire quickly
(although more than 2-3sec) or make its detail less by reducing range or only showing periodic results.
Bump it out to 4sec ping and you only see the enemy for one point in time during the average duration of a fight.
I also support an anti-scanner internal (despite peoples objections to adding items to counter items)
as you could have a stealth mech equipped with it, and bring it out whenever the enemy is using scanners.
Then you have to decide whether you want to drop 2-3 slots on staying hidden or using them on orb-sucking
or speed/defense, etc.
Comparing the scanner to spotting is horribly flawed for a number of reasons I won't go into (unless you really need me to break it down for you).
Even if the scanner was a single pulse type ability (oh god reloaded please don't get any ideas from this), it would still be bad for the game. Imagine going into an objective, just do your 1 scanner sweep and your team knows where the enemy team is before advancing onto the objective. The items needs to function in a way mechanically dissimilar from how it works now.
Internals that combat scanner is also a bad idea, and another "band-aid" type solution. Stop trying to create a work around, and address the problem at its source.
#20
Posted 07 April 2017 - 12:09 PM
Let me rent my server again and I will turn off all radar ;)
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#21
Posted 07 April 2017 - 04:24 PM
#22
Posted 07 April 2017 - 08:46 PM
I dont see it as a workaround. Im not trying to get rid of the scanner. I like having strategies and counter-strategies. It also gives people more stuff to try. And whats wrong with knowing where your enemies are before entering?? They can have a scanner and know you're about to enter. I want anti-repair fields and redox charges to make assaulting points easier, so they change hands more often. Please explain the difference to spotting. Take your time and be very thorough. I'll read it... maybe.
Creating a new thing to deal with a previous problem instead of tackling the problem itself is pretty much the definition of a workaround. And yes, it's become obvious you don't want scanners to go anywhere. However, I wouldn't call dropping your deployable wallhack a "strategy," and if anything, it eliminates strategies like flanking, as they become pointless if your enemy knows exactly where you are coming from. More deathball is not what this game needs. If this game had perpetual radar on everyone, it would just become a deathball slugfest which would be pretty monotonous. If you like deathballs, we'll just have to disagree.
As for tech stuff, that's a whole other can of worms I won't touch as it isn't particularly relevant (although my gut reaction is to oppose any suggestion that includes Mortal Strike effects).
As for scanner vs spotting, there are a couple key difference. First of all, spotting requires line of sight from at least one person. Scanner, by comparison, can be dropped on one side of a wall and you can see any enemies on the other side without requiring exposure from anyone. Another important difference is that spotting is not a persistent marker, tagging someone will not continue to inform you of an enemies locations. You can also "miss" the spotting, and often times it is used as a more general indicator of enemy movement rather than specifically tagging one person. Spotting has a cooldown, and can also only tag one person at a time. Frankly though, the comparison is pointless. I'm not interested in discussing another mechanic that has coincidental similarities to the item I want reworked, it isn't really constructive to say "x is okay because y kinda does the same thing."
#23
Posted 08 April 2017 - 03:21 AM
if you play long enough, you become a scanner yourself... it's all about positioning.
It's pretty much having a 6th sense when you play too much.
These points.
In game people scoff when I tell them most of the rest of the team doesn't need the scanner they'd dropped.
Did I say Call Me Ishmael?
You should call me Luna.
#24
Posted 08 April 2017 - 07:17 PM
We obviously play for different reasons and I doubt you can come up with any argument that would change my position. You can't prove your way is any better for the game, because you're reasons for playing cant match every other player. They might not match with players that monetize, and thats what will tip the decision for RLD.
I acknowledged when I posted that others disagree with me, and I want these things regardless.
[/discussion]
#25
Posted 08 April 2017 - 10:01 PM
[/discussion]
That's not how you have a discussion, that's how you throw a huff. Literally imagining you slamming a door on your way out here.
#26
Posted 08 April 2017 - 10:17 PM
Morque, TLDR... I honestly dont care.
We obviously play for different reasons and I doubt you can come up with any argument that would change my position. You can't prove your way is any better for the game, because you're reasons for playing cant match every other player. They might not match with players that monetize, and thats what will tip the decision for RLD.
I acknowledged when I posted that others disagree with me, and I want these things regardless.
[/discussion]
All cool dude. I think that like 90% of the time, you aren't going to change someones mind in an argument, but if you can both listen to the others reasoning, that's as good of a win as you can ask for.
Honestly this thread is less about discussing an already beaten-to-death topic, and more about me secretly hoping for dev confirmation of a change I want to see. While it may not be a change welcome by everyone, it's definitely something I think the majority of the "competitive" community would be in favor of, given their ban on scanners. In many games, competitive exposure = more money, I'm hoping the dev's will follow that reasoning (and I assume that was their reasoning behind the orblord changes).
#27
Posted 09 April 2017 - 04:14 PM
Range and lifetime are two things that would be easiest and more likely to happen at this point in development.
#28
Posted 09 April 2017 - 11:44 PM
You would see a nerf happen before a redesign or removal. And if a nerf doesnt make it tolerable, then push again for redesign.
Range and lifetime are two things that would be easiest and more likely to happen at this point in development.
You're probably right, and that's what concerns me. I personally don't believe changing things like radius and duration will balance it properly, and I'm worried that if they do take that route, it will create an, "oh they nerfed it, it's okay to use it now" mentality.
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