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#81
Ropiagalvis

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Yeah but those with radical movement changes, like UT have never been particularly popular. The vast majority of even Scout players in TF2 never used the doublejump to air dodge. Rocket and nade jumping were more popular because of the emphasis on covering distance and height advantage.

Well GunZ: the duel was popular if i recall correctly and that game was all about movement.



#82
ATX22

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This is a curious thing because many other online shooters have player characters that are faster (or even much faster) then Hawken mechs and also have smaller, thinner hitboxes yet I don't recall people having that much difficulty shooting smaller, quicker players in those games compared to Hawken.

 

For me, the turn-rate cap in Hawken is a pain, throw in random hit-reg issues and rubber banding around the map and I could see how people could have a hard time controlling mechs in Hawken.



#83
Superkamikazee

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Okay, let's try it with a closer comparison. Doesn't MWO have a higher average TTK than Hawken? If the "speed" of the game is the primary issue here, then shouldn't we be seeing a mass exodus of Hawken players flocking to MWO? Are there any MWO players that have also played Hawken that can enlighten us about how MWO's gameplay got it right and Hawken got it wrong?


The game hasn't broken 300 concurrent players in months, so I guess if that number dropped by 50 would that qualify as a "mass exodus"? What percentage drop warrants "mass exodus" designation?

This is a curious thing because many other online shooters have player characters that are faster (or even much faster) then Hawken mechs and also have smaller, thinner hitboxes yet I don't recall people having that much difficulty shooting smaller, quicker players in those games compared to Hawken.


That's the identity crisis I'm talking about. If Hawken tries to mimic these fast high mobility shooters there's even less reason to play Hawken over any of those shooters. The other point is, this is a mech shooter, we can argue about what that exactly means or how a mech shooter should play, but again I'll reference Hawken's initial positive reception back in 2012. It was commended for it's weighted feel, and lumbering mechs. That feeling resonated with players and journalists. Fast forwad to 2015, Hawken feels like a bunch of tin cans zipping all about, it's simply not a satisfying experience and one could argue that can be proven with the Steam launch. Literally no one stayed post Steam release, the numbers dropped back to what they previously were almost immediately, then continued to plummet up to the ADH silent treatment.

My point isn't about what's competitive, who's better, "GET GOOD", or any of that. More that I'm not convinced taking Hawken down the road it's currently set on is the wisest decision. Making it faster or more agile hasn't been proven to make the game better (better meaning player retention, new players), the last time I read anything positive about the game outside these forums/Hawken reddit was back in 2012. But this is just my opinion stuck in an echo chamber.
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#84
PoopSlinger

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So is UE4 necessary?


Edited by PoopSlinger, 10 December 2015 - 07:05 AM.

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Come on Crafty, you have been officially called out on your lies. Your online reputation is at stake here, this is just like an old school street race running for pink slips. Its run what you brung and hope its enough. Put up or shut the fuzzy bunny up.


#85
StubbornPuppet

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So is UE4 necessary?

 

Yes. For those games that were built on it.


To be serious for a moment this is just a joke

 


#86
Pleasure_Mortar

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The game hasn't broken 300 concurrent players in months, so I guess if that number dropped by 50 would that qualify as a "mass exodus"? What percentage drop warrants "mass exodus" designation?


That's the identity crisis I'm talking about. If Hawken tries to mimic these fast high mobility shooters there's even less reason to play Hawken over any of those shooters. The other point is, this is a mech shooter, we can argue about what that exactly means or how a mech shooter should play, but again I'll reference Hawken's initial positive reception back in 2012. It was commended for it's weighted feel, and lumbering mechs. That feeling resonated with players and journalists. Fast forwad to 2015, Hawken feels like a bunch of tin cans zipping all about, it's simply not a satisfying experience and one could argue that can be proven with the Steam launch. Literally no one stayed post Steam release, the numbers dropped back to what they previously were almost immediately, then continued to plummet up to the ADH silent treatment.

My point isn't about what's competitive, who's better, "GET GOOD", or any of that. More that I'm not convinced taking Hawken down the road it's currently set on is the wisest decision. Making it faster or more agile hasn't been proven to make the game better (better meaning player retention, new players), the last time I read anything positive about the game outside these forums/Hawken reddit was back in 2012. But this is just my opinion stuck in an echo chamber.

As someone who played almost every Mechwarrior game over and over, spend about 2-5 hours everyday over three years playing MW4 and MW4 Mercenaries online, Hawken is a more than welcome change of pace to the usual clunkyness and slugishness usually attributed to mechgames.

In Mechwarrior 4 all we used were the heaviest mech, now I'm not even going to touch a c-class, even the assault feels dreadfully slow.

I'm pretty happy with the speed of the game and the TTK and I'm pretty sure there will be alot more people like me. There are about 300 ppl around playing a game that has not even left beta status and didn't get updated for two years.

IMO the speed is Hawkens USP gameplay wise. The look and feel of the Hawken world are unique but they are not enough to sell Hawken withou making it just another mechgame.

 

Everyone I met in RL who tried Hawken, quit playing because they either had no clue how to move and got stomped hard or didn't want to invest time in a game with an unsafe future and/or no new content in a foreseable timeframe. None of them had issues with the speed once they realised that this mech game can be played more like UT. Most of them liked the speed because it plays like a shooter. 

 

A journalist or new player who thinks Hawken is another mech game will most likely expect Mechwarrior like speed and feeling and like clunkyness because it confims his expectations. 

Have people expect Hawken is a blazing fast, action packed mechgame like there has never been before and people will praise the fast gameplay


Edited by Pleasure_Mortar, 10 December 2015 - 07:31 AM.

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#87
Catnium

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ye newer players have issues with being pub stomped and also with the main damage weapons on most mechs not being hitscan but trajectory based explosive type weapons like the nades and missiles now bring in air burst and dodge mechanic's and it becomes a gaotic mess for any new player. 

the last friend i introduced into hawken found the missle and grenade mechanic's in combination with the high dodge rate of light mechs so annoying the 1st thing he did after playing a few matches was buy the G2 assault.

 

now this friend of mine is some kinda fps god ( i totally hate him for that) because he is like good like pro lvl mlg good in every fps game 

and with the g2 + deflectors he also rek face.

now this got me thinking .. if my friend who is literally god in every pfs i ever played with him can't or won't use the missiles mechanic because even he finds it easier to just land machine gun shots wat would like an average joe think.

i mean think about it , my friend gets accused for hacking in literally every fps i ever played with him and he even got it in hawken with his G2 assault.

 

So i asked him a few times about why he would not use missiles or nades and he was like "Look they have dodge with 2 sec cd and my reload is like 3 sec or something, theoretically i would never be able to hit them because they can always dodge when i fire." 

and i can't really argue with that logic.


Edited by Catnium, 10 December 2015 - 07:43 AM.

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#88
TheButtSatisfier

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The game hasn't broken 300 concurrent players in months, so I guess if that number dropped by 50 would that qualify as a "mass exodus"? What percentage drop warrants "mass exodus" designation?

 

For the sake of being able to frame the conversation: let's say 5-10% of Hawken's population at any given time leaving Hawken over a two month span to play MWO in lieu of Hawken. I'd be very surprised if such a metric existed, but I'm keeping the figures loose and instead hoping that someone else reading this thread who "left" Hawken because they felt that MWO got something right that Hawken lacked will post their experience here.

 

Look, Hawken in the past was more popular than Hawken today. Nobody debates that. But what I keep seeing people doing is looking back at Hawken pre-Ascension and talking about the mechanics as if they are the key to getting current Hawken back to that level of popularity. It's easy to try to compare pre-Ascension with post-Ascension, try to see what changed, and then declare that it's time to move back because "that's the forumla that worked".

 

I think that kind of analysis is flawed because it only works if Hawken existed entirely in a vacuum - one where other games don't emerge or evolve, and one where its players don't have changing preferences. MWO now fills the lumbering mech niche with high TTK. I'm saying that Hawken should not regress to high TTK and low mobility because that niche is filled, just as much kind of like how the twitch gaming niche is filled by COD and CS. There's still plenty of room for Hawken to evolve from where it stands now into a unique direction, and if it happens to combine elements of old Hawken with entirely new ones to make something even better, then that's fantastic. But anyone blindly wagging their willy around declaring that we "just need to go back to the old ways" is drastically oversimplifying the conversation to the point of uselessness.


Edited by TheButtSatisfier, 10 December 2015 - 07:56 AM.

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#89
TheButtSatisfier

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Hawken is hard to learn, and my friend says so

 

Any argument that Hawken is hard to learn (and that's why our population is low) immediately gets thrown out the window when you look at a MOBA's learning curve, which I think is significantly steeper than Hawken's. And MOBAs don't have a retention problem.

 

Could our tutorials be better? Definitely. Could there be more emphasis put on what separates Hawken from other FPS's so that new players at least have a sense that mobility plays a larger part in this game than others they might have heard of? Sure.

 

But "Hawken is hard so people leave" is not the only deduction to make. Clunky map design, low player population, kaka UI, there's tons of factors why our player population is low. One of the biggest is that this game isn't being marketed right now. That's a massive factor.

 

Saying Hawken is hard and we need to change the mechanics to pander to the newbs is a terrible and short sighted conclusion to come to.


Edited by TheButtSatisfier, 10 December 2015 - 07:53 AM.

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#90
dorobo

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For the sake of being able to frame the conversation: let's say 5-10% of Hawken's population at any given time leaving Hawken over a two month span to play MWO in lieu of Hawken. I'd be very surprised if such a metric existed, but I'm keeping the figures loose and instead hoping that someone else reading this thread "left" Hawken because they felt that MWO somehow got right whatever Hawken got wrong and will post about their experience.

 

Look, Hawken in the past was more popular than Hawken today. Nobody debates that. But what I keep seeing people doing is looking back at Hawken pre-Ascension and talking about the mechanics as if they are the key to getting current Hawken back to that level of popularity. It's easy to try to compare pre-Ascension with post-Ascension, try to see what changed, and then declare that it's time to move back because "that's the forumla that worked".

 

I think that kind of analysis is flawed because it only works if Hawken existed entirely in a vacuum - one where other games don't emerge or evolve, and one where its players don't have evolving preferences. MWO now fills the lumbering mech niche with high TTK. I'm saying that Hawken should not regress to high TTK and low mobility because that niche is filled, just as much kind of like how the twitch gaming niche is filled by COD and CS. There's still plenty of room for Hawken to evolve from where it stands now into a unique direction, and if it happens to combine elements of old Hawken with entirely new ones to make something even better, then that's fantastic. But anyone blindly wagging their willy around declaring that we "just need to go back to the old ways" is drastically oversimplifying the conversation to the point of uselessness.

^This is good stuff. I wasn't expecting that lvl of thought from a butt satisfier   :pirate:


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#91
StubbornPuppet

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Hawken never had a high TTK or lumbering mechs.  They just weren't as zippy and soft as they are now.

 

For me, the difference was previously being able to think about and execute intelligent moves and tactics.  Now, it is more reliant on instinctual microsecond reflexes.  I believe the increase in mech speed and reduced TTK are also what contributes to more players choosing to stick to a very specific mech at all times - because you have to rely on those rapid, instinctual reflex responses to win (or at least stay alive).

 

This is not to say that playing smart does not exist, not at all, it just isn't as big of a factor now.

 

I'm a big boy and I can 'hang' and 'deal' with it the way it is... but I think it was more fun when I felt like it was more about my intelligence and my choices that earned me a victory.


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#92
Hyginos

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^This is good stuff. I wasn't expecting that lvl of thought from a butt satisfier   :pirate:

 

THE butt satisifer.


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MFW Howken

 

My post count is neat.


#93
TheButtSatisfier

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Hawken never had a high TTK or lumbering mechs.  They just weren't as zippy and soft as they are now.

 

For me, the difference was previously being able to think about and execute intelligent moves and tactics.  Now, it is more reliant on instinctual microsecond reflexes.  I believe the increase in mech speed and reduced TTK are also what contributes to more players choosing to stick to a very specific mech at all times - because you have to rely on those rapid, instinctual reflex responses to win (or at least stay alive).

 

This is not to say that playing smart does not exist, not at all, it just isn't as big of a factor now.

 

I'm a big boy and I can 'hang' and 'deal' with it the way it is... but I think it was more fun when I felt like it was more about my intelligence and my choices that earned me a victory.

 

And your feedback is valid, but it's important to distill suggestions for improvement into a single aspect of the overall gameplay mechanics so that we can all talk about the same thing intelligently. Slowing down the game a bit nebulous because it's still multi-faceted. We can make the game feel slower through a variety of methods, but we still want it exciting to hold someone's attention and keep them engaged. Hell, that could be increasing armor health across all mechs by a % and just making the explosions bigger and the sound effects more awesome with echo gunfire effects.

 

MAYBE A FUTURE WHERE SA-HAWKENS DOESNT SOUND LIKE A FAT KID JUMPING ON AN OLD MATTRESS, I DONT KNOW


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#94
Silverfire

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So i asked him a few times about why he would not use missiles or nades and he was like "Look they have dodge with 2 sec cd and my reload is like 3 sec or something, theoretically i would never be able to hit them because they can always dodge when i fire." 

and i can't really argue with that logic.

 

Wait for them to dodge. Fire after they dodge.  Catch them at the end of the dodge.  Once a player is committed to a dodge, they cannot break free from it, so catch them at the one point in time where they have no control over the movement, speed, and direction of their mech (for the most part.  Very few players will tap the repair key C to break a dodge, which is the only thing afaik that will do so.  I would attribute this to simply not knowing this fact).  Can't really argue with that logic either.  If you know what direction they are dodging in, and you know where the dodge will end, put your missile or grenade there, where you know they will absolutely be.  It's 100% possible to land direct TOWs or nades, and you should never discount the splash damage from explosives, even if a player knows how to dodge cancel.

 

And the reload time on the TOW is 2.25 seconds.


Edited by Silverfire, 10 December 2015 - 08:38 AM.

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#95
Superkamikazee

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As someone who played almost every Mechwarrior game over and over, spend about 2-5 hours everyday over three years playing MW4 and MW4 Mercenaries online, Hawken is a more than welcome change of pace to the usual clunkyness and slugishness usually attributed to mechgames.
In Mechwarrior 4 all we used were the heaviest mech, now I'm not even going to touch a c-class, even the assault feels dreadfully slow.
I'm pretty happy with the speed of the game and the TTK and I'm pretty sure there will be alot more people like me. There are about 300 ppl around playing a game that has not even left beta status and didn't get updated for two years.
IMO the speed is Hawkens USP gameplay wise. The look and feel of the Hawken world are unique but they are not enough to sell Hawken withou making it just another mechgame.
 
Everyone I met in RL who tried Hawken, quit playing because they either had no clue how to move and got stomped hard or didn't want to invest time in a game with an unsafe future and/or no new content in a foreseable timeframe. None of them had issues with the speed once they realised that this mech game can be played more like UT. Most of them liked the speed because it plays like a shooter. 
 
A journalist or new player who thinks Hawken is another mech game will most likely expect Mechwarrior like speed and feeling and like clunkyness because it confims his expectations. 
Have people expect Hawken is a blazing fast, action packed mechgame like there has never been before and people will praise the fast gameplay


You're misinterpreting my opinion and suggesting that I want Hawken to be mechwarrior. Hawken was never that slow, I just feel it's gotten too fast over time, and lost some of that immersive weighted feeling. Also, I don't think anyone's said Hawken should be mechwarrior slow, it just shouldn't be tin can bee buzzingly quick either like it is now.
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#96
Sylhiri

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So i asked him a few times about why he would not use missiles or nades and he was like "Look they have dodge with 2 sec cd and my reload is like 3 sec or something, theoretically i would never be able to hit them because they can always dodge when i fire." 

and i can't really argue with that logic.

 

Wonder if he realised you can air burst them. It's not a common mechanic in most FPS games.

----------------

 

Does anyone one have the numbers of Alpha speeds compared to our current speeds? The TTK was much *higher then but i'm curious about the movement speeds.


Edited by Sylhiri, 10 December 2015 - 12:34 PM.


#97
StubbornPuppet

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Hawken never had a high TTK or lumbering mechs.  They just weren't as zippy and soft as they are now.

 

For me, the difference was previously being able to think about and execute intelligent moves and tactics.  Now, it is more reliant on instinctual microsecond reflexes.  I believe the increase in mech speed and reduced TTK are also what contributes to more players choosing to stick to a very specific mech at all times - because you have to rely on those rapid, instinctual reflex responses to win (or at least stay alive).

 

This is not to say that playing smart does not exist, not at all, it just isn't as big of a factor now.

 

I'm a big boy and I can 'hang' and 'deal' with it the way it is... but I think it was more fun when I felt like it was more about my intelligence and my choices that earned me a victory.

 

 

And your feedback is valid, but it's important to distill suggestions for improvement into a single aspect of the overall gameplay mechanics so that we can all talk about the same thing intelligently. Slowing down the game a bit nebulous because it's still multi-faceted. We can make the game feel slower through a variety of methods, but we still want it exciting to hold someone's attention and keep them engaged. Hell, that could be increasing armor health across all mechs by a % and just making the explosions bigger and the sound effects more awesome with echo gunfire effects.

 

MAYBE A FUTURE WHERE SA-HAWKENS DOESNT SOUND LIKE A FAT KID JUMPING ON AN OLD MATTRESS, I DONT KNOW

 

Fair enough, but I don't agree that we need to distill the suggestions down to a single aspect... people are capable of having an intelligent discussion about multiple facets of the same stone.  What we could use is for people to stay more on topic and for them to stop starting new topics about the same exact suggestion - that dilutes the conversations and just creates a mess.

 

Anyhow, when I talk about 'slowing the game', as you put it, I only mean, slowing down the mech movement speed a bit and increasing the armor a bit.  The game itself was still 'fast-paced' pre-steam and pre-ascension.  It just rewarded thoughtful play more than twitch reflexes.  Those two updates reversed that paradigm.

 

I am happy to recognize that this is just my opinion, but I most certainly have more fun and find it more rewarding when I succeed or fail because of the tactics, moves and strategies I chose than I when I succeed or fail because of my reflexes.


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#98
Catnium

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Any argument that Hawken is hard to learn (and that's why our population is low) immediately gets thrown out the window when you look at a MOBA's learning curve, which I think is significantly steeper than Hawken's. And MOBAs don't have a retention problem.

 

Could our tutorials be better? Definitely. Could there be more emphasis put on what separates Hawken from other FPS's so that new players at least have a sense that mobility plays a larger part in this game than others they might have heard of? Sure.

 

But "Hawken is hard so people leave" is not the only deduction to make. Clunky map design, low player population, kaka UI, there's tons of factors why our player population is low. One of the biggest is that this game isn't being marketed right now. That's a massive factor.

 

Saying Hawken is hard and we need to change the mechanics to pander to the newbs is a terrible and short sighted conclusion to come to.

 

No definitely not pander to noobs  i never sad that .. .. tweeking for ballance sure but like nerfing everything to attract ps2 cod tf2 crowd ?? no no no no no..that would kill all the vibe and personality this game has left.

I like the thought of introducing a better tutorial putting more emphasis on targeting moving targets with missle/nades  and hovering/jumping targets with airburst.

People need to know this game isn't about machine gun battles before they get into it and find out that combat in hawken is so alien to other fps they might not even like it in the 1st place.

I believe if people would understand better what it exactly is they are getting themselves into as far as combat is concerned they might actually start to like it as much as i did when i 1st discovered this game wasn't the same as every other fps i ever played.


Edited by Catnium, 10 December 2015 - 04:07 PM.

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#99
Silverfire

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Better tutorials for sure.

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#100
TheButtSatisfier

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Fair enough, but I don't agree that we need to distill the suggestions down to a single aspect... people are capable of having an intelligent discussion about multiple facets of the same stone.  What we could use is for people to stay more on topic and for them to stop starting new topics about the same exact suggestion - that dilutes the conversations and just creates a mess.

 

Anyhow, when I talk about 'slowing the game', as you put it, I only mean, slowing down the mech movement speed a bit and increasing the armor a bit.  The game itself was still 'fast-paced' pre-steam and pre-ascension.  It just rewarded thoughtful play more than twitch reflexes.  Those two updates reversed that paradigm.

 

I am happy to recognize that this is just my opinion, but I most certainly have more fun and find it more rewarding when I succeed or fail because of the tactics, moves and strategies I chose than I when I succeed or fail because of my reflexes.

 

No definitely not pander to noobs  i never sad that .. .. tweeking for ballance sure but like nerfing everything to attract ps2 cod tf2 crowd ?? no no no no no..that would kill all the vibe and personality this game has left.

I like the thought of introducing a better tutorial putting more emphasis on targeting moving targets with missle/nades  and hovering/jumping targets with airburst.

People need to know this game isn't about machine gun battles before they get into it and find out that combat in hawken is so alien to other fps they might not even like it in the 1st place.

I believe if people would understand better what it exactly is they are getting themselves into as far as combat is concerned they might actually start to like it as much as i did when i 1st discovered this game wasn't the same as every other fps i ever played.

 

This is good feedback. It's concise, it's thorough, and it has concrete examples. *Tips fedora*


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#101
StubbornPuppet

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This is good feedback. It's concise, it's thorough, and it has concrete examples. *Tips fedora*

 

Good.  It's nice that we can return the favor and satisfy your butt for a change.


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