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Apologies to the B-Team...

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#1
_incitatus

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I would like to apologize to the B-Team on behalf of THC for auto-tossing holos during the first round of our match last night.  While we do that mostly for the LOLs, we also acknolwedge it's usefulness as a distractionary measure.  
 
TPG rules state that the use of a "script" to gain an unfair advantage is punishable by a 1 year suspension.  While we were technically using a "macro", they are quite similar and we could probably have a long "discussion" debating the difference between the two. I think there were two of us running it for around 5 minutes when the request was made to turn it off.  Which we did.  
 
In retrospect, it was a fuzzy bunny move. Please understand that the idea of "cheating" was nowhere in our minds and had we done our due diligence by thouroughly reading the TPG rules, we would not have employed such tactics given the grey area of macros/scripts.
 
You guys played three really tough matches and I hate that you felt as though the holos may have cost you the first round.  I'd like to offer at the very least to replay that round if you'd like.  If you'd rather pursue TPG disciplinary measures, of course that's your right. 

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#2
CraftyDus

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throw all the holos you want
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#3
1uster

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Too much THC?

 

:ohmy: :tongue: :turned: :rolleyes: :yes:

 

Party hard.



#4
Amidatelion

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Thank you.


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#5
Sylhiri

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I'm having Déjà vu for some reason.


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#6
ticklemyiguana

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Muchos gracias. Those were terrific games. The holos were a wee bit unprofessional, but overall I'd take those every game if it meant they were all as good to play.

Good luck against AA.

Edited by ticklemyiguana, 25 October 2015 - 12:40 PM.

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#7
Call_Me_Ishmael

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what tickle said


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Did I say Call Me Ishmael?

 

You should call me Luna.


#8
Nept

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Incitatus asked me about this incident, and I've decided to post my full reply.  Although it doesn't represent what would've been TPG's official decision on this matter, it provides insight into our decision-making processes and rationales.

 

 


Ultimately, any incident ticket would be reviewed by the admin team at large.  Crafty feels strongly about the issue because of his DoD background and extensive TPG history, but his stance wouldn't be the only one taken into account.

 

Had Amid pursued official recourse, we would've had to consider Section 7.3: Acceptable In-game conduct.  Specifically, we would've debated whether the persistent holo macro breaches our expectation that players "conduct themselves in an appropriate manner, with maturity and respect".  We may've also considered Section 7.5.10: Use of an Illegal Script.  Personally, I don't think that persistent, 7-second holo drops provide advantage enough to warrant "illegal script" status, but that's just my opinion (man).

 

As I explained to Amid, intent's an important consideration in this (now hypothetical) case.  Was there malice and/or an effort to gain advantage (say, through irritating the enemy team) from THC?  Or was THC simply playing around?  Furthermore, how were those actions interpreted by The B-Team?  And was their interpretation justified, or were they reading too negatively into the taunts? 

 

In my (again, personal) opinion, this incident would've warranted a warning at most - perhaps alongside a strong suggestion to drop the macro.  Watching videos and listening to comms from both teams didn't give me the impression that holos were spammed incessantly, or the impression that THC intended to irritate their opponents.  Prior to the match, one THC player even suggested that the holos be switched from chickens to white-flag bearcitos in order to avoid offense.  Additionally, THC ceased dropping holos almost immediately upon request.

 

That being said, the holos were received poorly by certain B-Team members.  It's difficult to determine whether that reception was "legitimate" or whether they were looking for something to blame.  Had I been placed in a similar position, I would've instructed my team to maintain focus on the game - especially since TPG hasn't banned holos or mech taunts.  However, excessive taunting falls under our player conduct guidelines and, as we've seen with past incidents, can negatively affect attitudes and performance.  Although some make the argument that succumbing to taunts is childish, the reverse argument - that taunting itself is childish - holds just as much weight.  Nor is it unusual for competitive leagues (of any sort) to maintain standards of behaviour.  We don't, after all, want competitive Hawken to devolve into this NSFW mess.

 

So why not ban taunts completely?  Well, they are a part of the game - and there is some merit to the emotional control expectation argument.  Mostly, though, we wish to avoid rule fuzzy bunnyery and technicalities.  We don't want players reporting opponents for minimal (or even accidental) taunting; and let's face it, people will always find another way to taunt ("dancing" with quick turns, for example).

 

That's the reason our player behaviour expectations are broadly written.  They allow admins to consider incidents in degrees and along spectrums; they allow decisions that address subtleties; and they allow for behaviour guidance rather than behaviour mandates.

 

TL;DNR: I (personally) suggest that you drop the taunt macro and consider more carefully the (potential) feelings of your opponents.  What's fun and games for your team may result in negative experiences for your opponents - and at day's end, we're all playing competitive Hawken for fun.  I do appreciate, though, that there wasn't any malevolent intent behind your actions, and that there's no hardline ban against (holo) taunting in TPG.  We will continue to consider such incidents individually, for the reasons outlined in the previous paragraph.

 

P.S. Thanks for addressing this issue of your own accord.


Edited by Nept: Ultra Lord of the God-Kings, 26 October 2015 - 07:29 AM.

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#9
_incitatus

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Thanks Nept.

 

Again, we meant no disrespect to B-Team.  Our intention was distraction, not douche-baggery. 

 

Six people throwing holos can be quite overwhelming if you aren't used to it.


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#10
cbrxx

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I don't know why they don't just make them illegal.  Can't orb lord, that's a part of the game too.



#11
Nept

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I don't know why they don't just make them illegal.  Can't orb lord, that's a part of the game too.

 


So why not ban taunts completely?  Well, they are a part of the game - and there is some merit to the emotional control expectation argument.  Mostly, though, we wish to avoid rule fuzzy bunnyery and technicalities.  We don't want players reporting opponents for minimal (or even accidental) taunting; and let's face it, people will always find another way to taunt ("dancing" with quick turns, for example).

 

That's the reason our player behaviour expectations are broadly written.  They allow admins to consider incidents in degrees and along spectrums; they allow decisions that address subtleties; and they allow for behaviour guidance rather than behaviour mandates.

 


[08:24] <Hyginos> holotaunts have legitimate strategic value as audio feints and should be allowed considering that.

[08:25] <Nept> yeah, I considered that as well

[08:25] <Nept> but figured the post had gone on long enough

[08:25] <Nept> also, I would prefer that they were used sparingly rather than scattered all across the map

[08:26] <Nept> not sure of their impact on PC performance

[08:26] <Nept> and it would start looking ridiculous

 

In addition to those considerations, we try to avoid banning things unnecessarily.  The orblord internals were eventually banned because they became the dominating competitive meta and negatively affected game flow and balance.  This incident represents the first holotaunt-related complaint in a long while, and only the second such incident over three seasons of competition.  I don't currently consider it a priority, but if these incidents increased in number, or if people started abusing holo spam to slow pc's, we would look at banning holotaunts.  Most of the time, though, people will take our behaviour-related suggestions in stride and conduct themselves appropriately.

 

Should also mention that holotaunts can be plain fun - especially when there's camaraderie between opponents.  Again, context is important.


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#12
ticklemyiguana

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Ordinarily not an issue, but the game had gotten so close I can recall specifically looking at a taunt instead of an enemy and dying due to my eyes not being on the radar. Certainly, one should focus on the game, but the persistent usage in such a close game certainly had the potential to impact one or two firefights over the course of their usage, both through being a distraction and their potential to irritate after several minutes of consistent usage - enough to impact the sub 100 score difference by the end of the game.

While I don't want the game to be overturned or even overshadowed by the incident, as all three games were excellent, and I have a very positive outlook on most THC members (and seriously, you guys have Comic_Sans, one of the neatest guys on the forums and is always a pleasure to mess around with, BadTings, who's dedicated some absurd amount of time to helping out community events that he doesn't always get the chance to participate in, poop, whos one of the most intimidating G2's in the game and has a darling stupid child, and freaking eth0 and inci who voluntarily took over an event that I'd created and hosted for over a year after I basically threw a tantrum, and even elite, who despite some of the silly fuzzy bunny he pulls on the forums was literally the first person out of twelve by a full hour to message me that Hawken had been purchased after the silence and was coming back - and the dudes in freaking Africa - and I don't mean any disrespect to anyone else in THC, these are just the guys I either do or have communicated with more by a long shot than the average Hawken player or feel indebted to - or both) I feel l academically I have to disagree with some of the reasoning, and I don't want it to happen in other games in the future.

Taunts, by their nature as objects that are purchasable "ammunition", while I never asked a developer their stance, appear in their intent as objects in the game to be as minimally impactful as possible. While dropping them after a particularly good fight or in the carousel or just for fun as I've no doubt were the intents of THC is completely acceptable use even in competitive environments, I believe there's a line that can be crossed. I don't believe they should be used to gain even a small strategic advantage - and even putting them on lifts to trigger sounds should be discussed.

I don't think, and I feel closer to saying I know the intents of THC were not strategic in their use and were used more or less to reflect some of the friendly relationships of the players with members of our team. However, I feel a little disappointed that in my head this grey area has the potential to cover the point spread at the end of the game.

I'm writing from my phone which is more difficult to edit from efficiently, so you have my apologies for run on sentences and/or redundant thoughts.

I appreciate the read through anyway and have respect for the players involved and the games played.

Edited by ticklemyiguana, 26 October 2015 - 10:13 AM.

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#13
Aregon

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So holotaunts are in fact OP if deployed correctly?


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#14
phed

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So holotaunts are in fact OP if deployed correctly?

 

i don't think that their argument is that the holos are "over-powered" just that they can have "some-effect" on the outcome of a match if used in a certain manner. 

 

i've played with this macro myself (was not in this match however).  and my personal opinion is that it as much of a disadvantage to the one using it as to their opponent.  it is constantly giving away one's position, especially bad for dueling.

 

dueling _inci, i do better when he has the macro live and i don't.  but then, we are close friends and i understand he's just playing around and has no malice in his heart for me, well not actual malice, just the digital kind. 


Edited by phed, 26 October 2015 - 10:59 AM.


#15
Saturnine

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I'm having Déjà vu for some reason.

 

I'm not even sure how many people are even still around who remember the thing you are Déjà vuing about. 


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#16
ticklemyiguana

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I'm not even sure how many people are even still around who remember the thing you are Déjà vuing about. 

Get out of here. Quick. You can't just hop into a thread with a potential for blame and hope to escape unscathed.


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#17
Sylhiri

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I'm not even sure how many people are even still around who remember the thing you are Déjà vuing about. 

 

This is true. The lifespan of a regular Hawken player is about 3 days or so. Makes you think about life, man...


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#18
CoshCaust

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I'm just wondering how a holo immediately after a kill could possibly be anything other than a script, or a willful button-press; how could it be a macro?

 

Macro is a vague term, but i don't believe it encompasses 'script'.

 

...So what were they doing?



#19
comic_sans

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holy sheety teety, that ESL vid

 

How can you take those dinguses seriously when ~80% of them have ver.1.0 Justin Bieber haircuts?


Edited by cynical_smarms, 27 October 2015 - 08:18 PM.

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#20
ticklemyiguana

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I'm just wondering how a holo immediately after a kill could possibly be anything other than a script, or a willful button-press; how could it be a macro?

 

Macro is a vague term, but i don't believe it encompasses 'script'.

 

...So what were they doing?

It's more like the macro was programmed to spam the taunt button every time the cooldown stopped.

 

holy sheety teety, that ESL vid

 

How can you take those dinguses seriously when ~80% of them have ver.1.0 Justin Bieber haircuts?

I'm not sure what level of play that was, but christ I've never seen professional gaming be so unprofessional.


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#21
PoopSlinger

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If they make a THC holo-taunt with a 7 fingered leaf and smoke we would have to drop them continuosly and all opposition to us dropping them would be considered null.


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Come on Crafty, you have been officially called out on your lies. Your online reputation is at stake here, this is just like an old school street race running for pink slips. Its run what you brung and hope its enough. Put up or shut the fuzzy bunny up.


#22
TheButtSatisfier

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If they make a THC holo-taunt with a 7 fingered leaf and smoke we would have to drop them continuosly and all opposition to us dropping them would be considered null.

 

Only if there's ridiculous smoke particle effects and we can hotbox the underground area of Facility.

 

We'll need to use barriers to close up the exits and maximize containment


Edited by TheButtSatisfier, 29 October 2015 - 06:16 AM.

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8) Tech in the streets, Brawler in the sheets (8


#23
Hyginos

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Only if there's ridiculous smoke particle effects and we can hotbox the underground area of Facility.

 

We'll need to use barriers to close up the exits and maximize containment

 

What about the big hole in the top? You'd have to get in to the server room probably.

 

Either way I think some of the tunnels on origin are a better bet.


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#24
TheButtSatisfier

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What about the big hole in the top? You'd have to get in to the server room probably.

 

Either way I think some of the tunnels on origin are a better bet.

 

Could cap Frontline's top opening with a shield. Origin's tunnel systems would probably work.

 

The bakery on Frontline would also suffice. Because that's where the baking happens.


8) Tech in the streets, Brawler in the sheets (8


#25
Hyginos

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Could cap Frontline's top opening with a shield. Origin's tunnel systems would probably work.

 

The bakery on Frontline would also suffice. Because that's where the baking happens.

 

I you have a shield it doesn't even matter where you are. Its just an instant hotbox any time and anywhere.


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#26
_incitatus

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Could cap Frontline's top opening with a shield. Origin's tunnel systems would probably work.

The bakery on Frontline would also suffice. Because that's where the baking happens.


Based on the name alone, it should be the bakery.
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