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Third Person Revised

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#1
SacredBlack1

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Now I know what you're thinking. "Why the fuzzy bunny is he bringing this up again? Didn't we tell him no the last time?" Yes, you did, and I listened to the explanations and issues and thought it out a bit more. Now before you tear me a new one, hear me out.

 

I can definitely see the issues posed if Third Person was implemented into public game types such as Team Deathmatch or other game modes that require Player VS. Player.

 

But I don't see any issues regarding Player VS. AI.

 

Third Person could be implemented into game modes where you are not fighting other players, but instead A.I.'s because lets be honest here. A.I.'s don't give a crap. Co-op Bot Destruction would be one of those games types where Third Person would be something great to implement into.

 

The reason why I push the issue of Third Person so far is because I can see the big picture here. This game would attract a lot more players if there were different perspectives. In some suggestions and discussions, I'm also seeing people wanting the additions of PvE content. If such content gets added, why experience that content in just first person?

 

And probably one of the most important reasons is because people pay their money for meteor credits to look cool, and to customize their mechs to their hearts desire. Many players actually want to see their mech that they spent their own money on customizing in action, so why restrict them to it?

 

One last issue that I come to is a performance issue. I see no performance issues simply changing the camera because it is already done in the training area, and spectator is in Co-op bot destruction without performance drops. I have a low-end PC, and was able to run Hawken just fine in both perspectives and the addition of the HUD would not be much effect, so if anyone brings up the matter of it being a performance issue, I can call complete BS on that.

 

I apologize if this topic has annoyed anyone seeing as it has been mentioned before many times in the past, but my points are valid, and I stand with these points always no matter of anyone's disapproval.

 

Third Person CAN BE IMPLEMENTED. There are always ways around a problem, and I seek to sort them out.

 

Please keep the posts on this thread positive. I do not seek arguments, but improvements.


Edited by SacredBlack1, 02 April 2015 - 11:28 PM.

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#2
Dr_Freeze001

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Well, I guess there is not real trouble with implementing a cinematic-style mode in offline bot stuff. Or maybe even the bot-tdm. 

 

I can live with that, keeping an eye on possible future spectator mode.


Edited by Dr_Freeze001, 02 April 2015 - 11:08 PM.

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#3
CrimsonKaim

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I don't think this will be a major reason for attracting people simple because you add third person to a gamemode the minority plays, but as long as it is PvE, I don't mind.


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#4
Houruck

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The only problem I see with that is what if these new players will start to ask for it in other PvP game modes as well.

You can use third person in the map exploration mode.


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#5
SacredBlack1

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The only problem I see with that is what if these new players will start to ask for it in other PvP game modes as well.

You can use third person in the map exploration mode.

That is when you say no. Is when they do start to ask for it in PvP. That is pushing the envelope, and I realize that now. I will support anyone who says no to asking for something like this in PvP. Third Person does not have a place in it.


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#6
nokari

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FYI, don't try to tell people you're not gonna accept arguments, because nobody is going to listen. It's a public forum, just like every public forum on the internet, and people are going to give you their opinions on your suggestions whether you ask for it or not. Forums are not a private suggestion form sent to devs and only devs and unless you are an admin, you will never control the kinds of responses you'll get. You gotta live with it.

 

 

I don't really see the point of it being only against AI or the so-called draw that this one thing would pull in sooo many new players. Against a dumb AI, there's no need for it. You already have an advantage and not only will you be too busy fighting to pay attention to how your mech is decked out, but nobody but your teammates (unless they're also bots) are going to be around to appreciate it. The sense of "check out how cool my customized mech looks!" isn't going to be there. Oogling your mech's custom look in the garage is all the same.

 

I think this would actually risk creating confusion and disappointment for new players that will try normal PvP and find the experience largely different.


Edited by nokari, 02 April 2015 - 11:36 PM.

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#7
Nept

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I wouldn't have any issue with third-person perspective in bot matches.  Provided, of course, that it wouldn't seep into pvp multiplayer like some insidious scrublette miasma.


Edited by Nept, 02 April 2015 - 11:35 PM.


#8
SacredBlack1

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I don't think this will be a major reason for attracting people simple because you add third person to a gamemode the minority plays, but as long as it is PvE, I don't mind.

It's a difference of perspective, and people like different perspectives.

 

FYI, don't try to tell people you're not gonna accept arguments, because nobody is going to listen. It's a public forum, just like every public forum on the internet, and people are going to give you their opinions on your suggestions whether you ask for it or not. Forums are not a private suggestion form sent to devs and only devs and unless you are an admin, you will never control the kinds of responses you'll get. You gotta live with it.

 

 

I don't really see the point of it being only against AI or the so-called draw that this one thing would pull in sooo many new players. Against a dumb AI, there's no need for it. You already have an advantage and not only will you be too busy fighting to pay attention to how your mech is decked out, but nobody but your teammates (unless they're also bots) are going to be around to appreciate it. The sense of "check out how cool my customized mech looks!" isn't going to be there. Oogling your mech's custom look in the garage is all the same.

 

I think this would actually risk creating confusion and disappointment for new players that will try normal PvP and find the experience largely different.

FYI, I don't need your advice. I never said people had to accept what I think. I'm fully aware of how the internet is, and how forums can be. And I'll live with what I want to live with.

 

What confusion? What disappointment? The disappointment of experimenting with something different? I never said people HAD to like it. There are some people out there who actually like to try different things unlike some. Yes, there are going to be people who are going to hate it, and there are going to be people who are going to like it. And some people actually like looking at their mechs even when they're fighting. Trust me, I've played Armored Core (If you could guess).


Edited by SacredBlack1, 02 April 2015 - 11:46 PM.

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#9
Nept

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Yeah, I think you'd need to be crystal clear to incoming players that third person perspective isn't (ever) going to be permitted in pvp.  Apart from that, my only concern would be development time.  No idea how long it would take to implement proper aiming, etc.



#10
Elite_is_salty

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Who would prefer looking at a mech's ass instead of a glorious cockpit? Which is, while not as glorious as the old one, still very unique.

Oh, and don't tell me you don't want arguments ... You ain't my god. BRUH.


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#11
nokari

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It's a difference of perspective, and people like different perspectives.

 

FYI, I don't need your advice. I never said people had to accept what I think. I'm fully aware of how the internet is, and how forums can be. And I'll live with what I want to live with.

 

What confusion? What disappointment? The disappointment of experimenting with something different? I never said people HAD to like it. There are some people out there who actually like to try different things unlike some. Yes, there are going to be people who are going to hate it, and there are going to be people who are going to like it. And some people actually like looking at their mechs even when they're fighting. Trust me, I've played Armored Core (If you could guess).

 

I thought it was pretty self-explanatory, but I guess not. 

If a user is advertised  "play in both 1st or 3rd person" in order to entice them into playing this game, as you presume will happen, and then they discover that 3rd person is only available for the least used part of the game (with the smallest number of maps mind you) and can't be used for the main part of the game, you're likely going to upset not just some, but many new players.

 

Even if not most players see it as dishonest, many may be disappointed because they were sold on this game being primarily multiplayer PvP, not PvE. You can't tell people they can buy all these cool customizations to deck out their mechs for combat and then tell them "well you can only see how cool your mechs look in action when you're not fighting other players..." and NOT expect people to get disappointed.

PvE in this game is overly repetitive to get much out of something so superficial. What's the long-term, population growing value in only seeing your customizations in front of the same mindless bots over and over?

 

 

TL;DR

I would say this is a "nice to have" when dev time and resources are free, and if it's made a low-key feature, but it's not going to be the kind of big draw you're making it out to be.


Edited by nokari, 03 April 2015 - 12:24 AM.

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#12
SparkyJJC

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Too much development time on something that would only be used in PvE.
It would require more balancing, adjusted views and HUD, maybe a different HUD all together in order to accommodate a third person view.

This game is advertised as an FPS anyway. We've had our steers from Fast & Tough, to Slow & Tough, to Fast & Weak.

Including third person will just confuse new players and have them saying "What? I was told this game was an FPS!"
And if you tell people that the third person view is only in PvE matches, it will have them saying "You can only use it against bots? What?"

 

If you like looking at your mech, we have the garage for that.

 

IMO, I don't like this idea at all.


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#13
Trigary

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Third person in offline matches is OK, but I don't think it will be used much, most of the players are fighting against other players. Again, if it will be in offline matches, players would want it in other game modes too, will it worth it? If there's third person camera, we have to forget the old "HUD", the one which is in the cockpit. The third person camera already exists, so in the map exploration mode we wouldn't see our fuel with the old HUD. I know, it's kinda off-topic, but only kinda :)



#14
Panzermanathod

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Wouldn't a third person camera make Reaper and Sharpshooter less viable? Sure you could go into FPS mode potentially but at that point why even have a Third Person camera for them?



#15
Sp3ctrr

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First time I started playing I was like "omfg so claustrophobic this is hell" then I got used to it. The End.


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#16
SacredBlack1

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Oh, and don't tell me you don't want arguments ... You ain't my god. BRUH.

I don't want arguments. Period.


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#17
Hyginos

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I don't want arguments. Period.

 You, sir, are in the wrong part of the internet.

 

On the topic at hand, however, I think the devs have a long list of better things to do right now.


Edited by Hyginos, 03 April 2015 - 08:54 AM.

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#18
SacredBlack1

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 You, sir, are in the wrong part of the internet.

 

 

Nope. I think I'm in just the right place.

 

I don't take crap from anybody. You can agree or disagree with me on certain matters, but I mean it when I say I don't seek arguments. Try to start one with me, you're going to get one.


Edited by SacredBlack1, 03 April 2015 - 09:01 AM.

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#19
SparkyJJC

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Nope. I think I'm in just the right place.

 

You're obviously not if you don't want arguments.

 

If you suggest something, you're going to get arguments against it.


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#20
SacredBlack1

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You're obviously not if you don't want arguments.

 

If you suggest something, you're going to get arguments against it.

DId I say I wouldn't? Of course I'm going to get arguments against it. That isn't what I mean by arguments though. The fact of the matter is people responding unnecessarily negative towards an idea, or bringing up something else negative that has nothing to do with the actual topic.

 

Now this right here? This is what I mean by arguments. You and Hygino are off-topic right now as well as me. You responded, and I have your response. Hyginos' "You sir are in the wrong part of the internet." statement is out of the question and is off-topic. I have his response to the issue as well. Now I suggest we get back on topic before this goes too far, if you so please.


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#21
Trigary

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I think the idea is dismissed for varius (is it the right word?) reasons. Also, if you don't want arguments I recommend you not to respond to them.



#22
SparkyJJC

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DId I say I wouldn't? Of course I'm going to get arguments against it. That isn't what I mean by arguments though. The fact of the matter is people responding unnecessarily negative towards an idea, or bringing up something else negative that has nothing to do with the actual topic.

 

Now this right here? This is what I mean by arguments. You and Hygino are off-topic right now as well as me. You responded, and I have your response. Hyginos' "You sir are in the wrong part of the internet." statement is out of the question and is off-topic. I have his response to the issue as well. Now I suggest we get back on topic before this goes too far, if you so please.

 

"people responding unnecessarily negative towards an idea"

What do you mean? People disliking an idea, or dismissing an idea?

 

"Hyginos' "You sir are in the wrong part of the internet." statement is out of the question and is off-topic"

I will agree that it is off topic but not entirely out of the question if you don't expect arguments such as these....

 

 

I will also agree that we're all off topic. It happens. Sometimes our desperation to prove someone wrong or to put a point forward outweighs our desperation to stay on-topic.

Also: This isn't most likely the case, but if you're deriving any sort of offense from my posts or you feel as if I'm attacking you, don't. I just want to put a point forward, even if it's not on topic.


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#23
SacredBlack1

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"people responding unnecessarily negative towards an idea"

What do you mean? People disliking an idea, or dismissing an idea?

 

"Hyginos' "You sir are in the wrong part of the internet." statement is out of the question and is off-topic"

I will agree that it is off topic but not entirely out of the question if you don't expect arguments such as these....

 

 

I will also agree that we're all off topic. It happens. Sometimes our desperation to prove someone wrong or to put a point forward outweighs our desperation to stay on-topic.

Also: This isn't most likely the case, but if you're deriving any sort of offense from my posts or you feel as if I'm attacking you, don't. I just want to put a point forward, even if it's not on topic.

Well these forums haven't been very welcoming to me lately, and instead aggressive. I'm just going to refrain from posting from now on.


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#24
Beemann

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There's no point in trying to add a persepctive mode for literally only one portion of the game.

You also suggest it would attract more players. Got numbers to back that up? If it's anecdotes you're after, I know people who explicitly avoid third person shooters like the plague, even if third person is an option.

 

 

Well these forums haven't been very welcoming to me lately, and instead aggressive. I'm just going to refrain from posting from now on.

Looked around for aggressive responses, found FakeName's and that was about as close as it got. Was there something I missed, or are you just reading really heavily into these responses? Most posts I see either disagree or question the "no arguments/criticism" portion of your post



#25
Panzermanathod

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I was hoping to see if there would be any suggestions as to how one would incorporate Third Person cameras into sniping mechs but it seems no one had anything.

 

I'm not saying there *should* or *shouldn't* be a third person mode, I'm just bringing up the fact that it would not work on Reaper and Sharpshooter.


Edited by Panzermanathod, 03 April 2015 - 03:29 PM.


#26
FRX23

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...

 

... keeping an eye on possible future spectator mode.

 

I share this wish.
 



#27
Beemann

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I was hoping to see if there would be any suggestions as to how one would incorporate Third Person cameras into sniping mechs but it seems no one had anything.

 

I'm not saying there *should* or *shouldn't* be a third person mode, I'm just bringing up the fact that it would not work on Reaper and Sharpshooter.

Third person shooters still have snipers. You just go into first person when you scope

See:

Battlefield Heroes

Global Agenda

Lost Planet

Mercenaries: Playground of Destruction

etc. etc. etc.



#28
Panzermanathod

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Therein lies the concern. Why would someone who uses SS or Reap even use third person mode? It would be easier to aim with first person, and there is less of a camera shift now when the zoom ability is used compared to, say, going from third person to zoomed first person.



#29
AsianJoyKiller

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Therein lies the concern. Why would someone who uses SS or Reap even use third person mode? It would be easier to aim with first person, and there is less of a camera shift now when the zoom ability is used compared to, say, going from third person to zoomed first person.

You get used to switching between 1st and 3rd very easily, and it's really no more difficult to aim in 3rd than it is in 1st.


Edited by AsianJoyKiller, 03 April 2015 - 08:47 PM.


#30
Panzermanathod

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But why bother switching if you're in a sniping mech? If there is a choice between the two cameras I don't see any real reason why someone who does use reap or SS would would actually use third person mode.



#31
Trigary

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He could see who is behind the corner, safely.



#32
Beemann

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He could see who is behind the corner, safely.

This

Third person vastly increases your viewing angles. You can see a little bit behind and to the sides of your model. and thus around corners. This has already been an issue in Hawken with the Taunt and Repair mechanics, but it's easily solved (move the camera)


Edited by Beemann, 03 April 2015 - 10:18 PM.


#33
Skrill

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https://www.playhawken.com/game-guide

 

Read the first line of non title text. It does a great job of explaining why third person will likely not be added. If you want a great fast paced third person mech game there are plenty out there (armored core: for answer to name one). Its been done. Hawken is a boosty Japanese style mech game but with a first person twist. No twist... nothing new to see here move along.



#34
Trigary

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This

Third person vastly increases your viewing angles. You can see a little bit behind and to the sides of your model. and thus around corners. This has already been an issue in Hawken with the Taunt and Repair mechanics, but it's easily solved (move the camera)

I know, I use it a lot in duels.

 

 

https://www.playhawken.com/game-guide

 

Read the first line of non title text. It does a great job of explaining why third person will likely not be added. If you want a great fast paced third person mech game there are plenty out there (armored core: for answer to name one). Its been done. Hawken is a boosty Japanese style mech game but with a first person twist. No twist... nothing new to see here move along.

:)


Edited by 00geri20, 03 April 2015 - 10:44 PM.


#35
Panzermanathod

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 Hawken is a boosty Japanese style mech game

 

Wait, Hawken is considered Japanese Styled? Never seemed specifically Japanese-esque to me.

 

As an aside I play Armored Core. I haven't played any beyond the PS2 era, unfortunately, but I've played all others before that. Except Formula Front.



#36
AsianJoyKiller

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Wait, Hawken is considered Japanese Styled? Never seemed specifically Japanese-esque to me.

 

As an aside I play Armored Core. I haven't played any beyond the PS2 era, unfortunately, but I've played all others before that. Except Formula Front.

Generally, Japanese-styled mechs emphasize speed and agility over the "walking tank" feeling.

Macross, Gundam, Zone of the Enders, etc. Even clunkier Japanese mech titles, like Lost Planet and Front Mission, tend to have more agile mechs than Western ones.

I wouldn't say Hawken is Japanese styled, but it definitely shares traits commonly seen in them.


Edited by AsianJoyKiller, 05 April 2015 - 01:40 PM.


#37
Panzermanathod

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Well, I've seen Japanese games with mechs of various speeds and strengths. From Big O, Daiguard, Steel Battalion, and Front Mission to Gundam and TTGL.

 

Just saying, and I agree with you, that while Hawken might share some traits, I wouldn't call it Japanese Styled. It's a Real Robot FPS, and for me that's closer to Western than Eastern.

 

Not to say Japan never makes Mech FPSs. I remember Kileak and Epidemic.

 

And while I'm at it, a load of highly fuzzy rabbits on Kileak, that piece of defecation game. At least Epidemic was an improvement.



#38
Nightfirebolt

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And probably one of the most important reasons is because people pay their money for meteor credits to look cool, and to customize their mechs to their hearts desire. Many players actually want to see their mech that they spent their own money on customizing in action, so why restrict them to it?

 

 

It is possible to see your mech in third person right now. "Explore Maps" mode has this function enabled, just press the ~ key. Granted, you can only see your mech from behind, but they could easily make some camera controls for vanity purposes.


Edited by Nightfirebolt, 05 April 2015 - 02:39 PM.


#39
Panzermanathod

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Trust me, the guy already knows about the Explore Maps Third Person Camera function.



#40
Nightfirebolt

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Trust me, the guy already knows about the Explore Maps Third Person Camera function.

 

Okay. Wasn't sure. Didn't see it mentioned.






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