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A Solution To Air Compressor and Many Other Issues

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#1
DerMax

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Yesterday I talked with Nept about a bunch of things, the Air Compressor being one of them, and I figured this: we want Hawken to go completely different directions. So different, in fact, that should the game go any of the two, one of us will likely lose any interest in the game. And I'm pretty sure this applies not only to me and Nept but also a sizeable part of the community.

 

So I figured the only reasonable solution to the AC problem and many other problems, to make the game interest everyone, as some people have already pointed out in other threads, is custom servers. Such servers would make it possible to ban any internals/items/classes you don't like, alter some of the game mechanics, modify different stats (cooldowns, movement speeds, weapon damage) and do a bunch of other things. So basically we'd be able to build our own Perfect Hawkens that we like most. It would also save the devs quite a bit of manhours, as compared to trying to figure what direction they want to take and balancing the game over and over.

 

What do you think? Would this be a good solution?


Edited by DerMax, 26 March 2015 - 11:56 PM.

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#2
CrimsonKaim

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Well as long as they are private, yes. But what about the 'normal' players who can't paly on private servers (no passwort/server full)?


Edited by FakeName, 26 March 2015 - 11:57 PM.

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#3
Elite_is_salty

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Standardization is due. Else = mess.


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#4
Anichkov3

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Private server can be public (not password protected). You just need to sign up as the server that's where you'll be running around with a bare ass.

You forget that it is the server rules of the game, but the characteristics of weapons and mechs are global for the entire game.


Edited by Anichkov3, 27 March 2015 - 12:10 AM.

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#5
DisorderlyMechanic

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I think this solution will end up separating the player base too much. It's not worth it in both the cost and development as it's a major change that could potentially cause hawken to die. The last thing the devs want to do is change how the game works to this extent.


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#6
Dawn_of_Ash

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I think the AC problem could be addressed by either increasing fuel consumed or decreasing the distance you dodge mid air.

 

As for custom servers, well, I think that it could be good - but it'd have to be private. Also, have one in every region instead of having everything in the US and/or EU. Yes, I am serious. :P


Edited by Dawn_of_Ash, 27 March 2015 - 12:18 AM.


#7
DerMax

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I think the AC problem could be addressed by either increasing fuel consumed or decreasing the distance you dodge mid air.

 

As for custom servers, well, I think that it could be good - but it'd have to be private. Also, have one in every region instead of having everything in the US and/or EU. Yes, I am serious. :P

The problem with changing the AC is that there are people who don't want it changed and who will do everything they can to make sure the AC stays in the game as is.



#8
DerMax

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I think this solution will end up separating the player base too much. It's not worth it in both the cost and development as it's a major change that could potentially cause hawken to die. The last thing the devs want to do is change how the game works to this extent.

I don't know of a single game that suffered from the introduction of custom servers, low population or not.



#9
Anichkov3

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Already have a private server and it is possible to configure the rules of the game (up to a murder with one hit and friendly fire), they just need to add a function to block access to a variety of items and internally.


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#10
DerMax

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Yeah, not that I think of it, this is not a solution. Can't delete the topic though :3



#11
Anichkov3

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Okey

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Edited by Anichkov3, 27 March 2015 - 12:51 AM.

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#12
Bad_BennyAK

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I think we're making a mountain out of a molehill.  What is the "Problem" with Air Compressors?  If you like them, use them.  if you don't have them, get them.  If you don't need them,  don't use them.  To me, taking up 3 internal slots is taxing enough.  I was thinking about a friend of mine, who doesn't boost a lot.  In that case,  he can put in an Advance reconstructor, or any other item.  if you have good FPS skills, i.e. Aiming, strafing, taking cover, using the terrain layout to your advantage, equiping the appropriate items and internals,  I don't see how NOT having AC is a handicap.  The strength of this game is, you develop your mech, to adapt to YOUR fighting style, as well as, trying out different mechs/ loadouts, to force yourself to TRY different styles of play.  i.e. Raider, that up close style is something I'm NOT used to. I don't think this is a big deal.


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#13
DaPheel

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I don't know if it would be a solution, but it would be nice to be able to see how games played out without certain mechs/weapons/internals/items or limits on the total amounts therein (i.e. one of each type per team).


EXPLOSIONS?


#14
Grollourdo

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Guys ... We already had this discussion in another thread...

Anyways as I said a few times in the other thread

Why do u guys wanna destroy ac so much???
Ac is already penalizing with its 3 slot size, why cripple it?

Its all about playstyle, create your own play style if its with or without ac.

All mechs and playstyles have advantages and disadvantages.

I got instance don't use ac, I played predator, I didn't need it. I used an advanced reconstructor. OK I couldn't use air dodge but I healed while I wasn't fighting (when stealthed most of the time)

Same goes the other way

The enemy will be able to dodge in the air but won't be able to continue his journey while healing and will be forced to manual repair.

In my vision hawken is perfect except for a few minor combinations. Hawken yo me is a very balanced game. If u have something superior it will always strip something from you. Like I said every thing in hawken has advantages and disadvantages.
Of course except for a few exceptions XD but that is for another thread
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#15
Grollourdo

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Lol forgot to mention XD

yes its true tho that it might be fun to be able to occasionally restrict certain items XD

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#16
WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW

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Coming soon to a private server near you:

 

-No Items

-No Internals

-Scout only

-Final Destination


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Thank you for your time,

 

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#17
Houruck

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Coming soon to a private server near you:
 
-No Items
-No Internals

We already had events like that.
And even a tech only event just for fun.
I think custom rules are awesome.
 
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Edited by Houruck, 27 March 2015 - 02:34 AM.

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#18
Merl61

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Ok. For me, the "solution" is really simple. Don't fundamentally change the game! Just tweak the balance. There are certain things that obviously need to be addressed. Incin, scanner, but other than that, it's fine the way it is. It survived 9 months like this. I think any fundamental changes would be catastrophically game breaking.
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#19
Houruck

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Ok. For me, the "solution" is really simple. Don't fundamentally change the game! Just tweak the balance. There are certain things that obviously need to be addressed. Incin, scanner, but other than that, it's fine the way it is. It survived 9 months like this. I think any fundamental changes would be catastrophically game breaking.

The addition of AC fundamentally changed the game among many other changes. ;)
Someone who has exact numbers should compare the player count during the last 9 months and before Ascension (and take the exposure Steam got for the game into consideration).

Edited by Houruck, 27 March 2015 - 02:39 AM.

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#20
Broham78

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I hate nerf threads. I think the constant complaining caused the global nerfing and removal of tuning points when it launched on steam. I almost left the game for good when I went into my first match and died in under 1 second. A lot of people actually did.

 

Now with that being said, air compressor on the scout is fuzzy bunny and should be removed due to its speed and secondary fuel tank. Everything else is pretty balanced. So yea I'd hop on the nerfwagon for that anyday.


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#21
defekt

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It survived 9 months like this. I think any fundamental changes would be catastrophically game breaking.

Survived for nine months?  If by 'survived' you mean that the servers weren't turned off, then yes, I suppose that's technically true; however, to position that the game is fine the way it is because it's been online for the last nine months ignores the fact that every time Hawken exposed itself to the wild with the goal of becoming a viable product it failed to attract any lasting attention, much less a viable amount of income. 

 

I hope, genuinely, that Hawken can be turned into a viable proposition merely by tweaking numbers here and there, and that would certainly be the path of least resistance for Reloaded, but I still worry that won't get to the heart of why Hawken repeatedly failed to make any sort of commercial headway.  I'd say that it's of vital importance to be able to take a step back from one's vested interests and objectively examine why that might be.

 

If this were any other game, a game that I wasn't invested in, I'd think it madness to try and re-float it without first objectively and dispassionately understanding why it sank in the first place.

 

Please don't shoot me for being the harbinger of doom!  I'm just trying to be realistic, because that's what's going to ensure Hawken has the best chance it can of making it this time.  :yes:

 

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#22
LaurenEmily

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Ok. For me, the "solution" is really simple. Don't fundamentally change the game! Just tweak the balance. There are certain things that obviously need to be addressed. Incin, scanner, but other than that, it's fine the way it is. It survived 9 months like this. I think any fundamental changes would be catastrophically game breaking.

The scanner i totally agree with, but could somebody explain to a newb (me) what makes incin so op ? is it only when teaming with a tech or is it always op ? If it is then 90% of them i see can't play very well because most of the time i can just overheat them with constant weapon spam and they are useless afetr that. They also don't seem to be able to aim very well when you hug them

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#23
Silverfire

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If you do heat management right, you can constantly fire without overheating. Infinite DPS plus a weapon that adds heat to you. A little too strong.
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#24
Aelita

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Not aware of an Air Compressor problem but hurraying custom servers. I would love to play on servers with level zero recruits only...or even that: A server where people get Mechs per random. Of course the other side would get the same mechs...ya know...foh balancing. Could be fun.  Also dreams of custom made maps by fans. I know there is a lot of talent out there. The unreal engine begs for it.



#25
petracles

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I missed the other thread, so 'scuse me for asking again here. But what specifically do people not like about AC? Is it adding too much speed to A classes? Making movement unfair to those who don't have it? Idk, any legit examples are always constructive.

 

Anyways, my two cents: it could be cool if all mechs had AC and cool if none of them had it. But that's not really realistic because A) it's an already developed mechanic in the game and waste if not used because to me B) the AC to me GREATLY increases intense corner-combat (you can dodge back around corners in the air, that's HUGE!). It adds another layer to the game's combat. Sure, not a lot of C's use it, but I do on some (haha, I know...)

 

But just a thought, what if internals sizing was different per class? Like the AC was a 4-slot (doesn't exist, I know) on a Scout but a 2-slot on a Rocketeer. And then the Fuel Converter is a 4 for the big guys and a 2 for the little guys. Not using that example specifically, but you get the idea. That seems like a fuzzy bunny to program into the game, maybe, but I still think it would offer more internal balance to the game, which is what a lot of people are asking for. There's a reason we see a lot of the same mech builds, and that's because the internals don't offer much variation between mechs-classes. What works on your B class probably works well for you on some A builds. That to me seems a bit like a waste.


Edited by petracles, 27 March 2015 - 05:13 AM.


#26
Deaod

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I would love to play on servers with level zero recruits only


We tried that (CR-T, Assault Rifle, no items, no internals) within Critical Assist. Those were some of the more enjoyable internal matches.
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#27
Superkamikazee

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Make a server or game mode called "SIM" (limits some items like AC), and give people that more realistic option in Hawken. That should satisfy both parties of pro AC and those opposed to it. Other shooters have a HARDCORE game type, and those always have an audience in their respective games.


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#28
HorseHeadProphet

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Yeah the air compressor is really a non-issue. Maybe make it a bit more accessible, at a lower pilot level.

 

Now as for servers...did anyone here ever play Unreal Tournament, or run their own server, or play on a "competition" type server? Use a mutator? I believe comp-style Quake had many of the same things I am talking about here...

 

First of all, the person running the server had complete control of the gameplay on that server. There were servers with low gravity, game speed running at 150%, weapon only mutators, star wars maps, maps with music, really any kind of mod you can imagine. You could set up any kind of arena you wanted. The game was still familiar enough, and allowed you to really find what type of play you liked best. I used to play UT on a 155/55 server (155% game speed, 55% gravity) it had all these crazy maps, and Bin Slayer weapons, crazy sniper weapons, etc. Any needed packages for the mods were pushed from the server and stored in cache on the player's computer. Utilities were developed to clean the cache and make the maps and mods permanently savable and installable from disk. 

 

There were also mutators for competition, UT Comp comes to mind. This and others, allowed you to force bright skins on the enemies, custom hit sounds, way better crosshairs than the game shipped with, easily administrate the server, start and restart matches, and add and remove its mutators from a GUI, and much more.

 

Now imagine taking this and applying to Hawken. Private - but not necessarily passworded servers, with a description of any mutators. You could run a no air compressor server, a scout only match with 150% game speed, sniper haven, no tech allowed server, one shot insta-kill mutator, really anything you wanted to do. 

 

There were of course plenty of "private" vanilla servers with untouched, stock gameplay, and official servers as well.

 

These are things that the community can and would do. Release the server package, with Linux support, and watch what pops up. You want to see what people want, see the way they actually choose to play when given the freedom to mod the game (within limits, not talking total conversions here)


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#29
Jakyll

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But just a thought, what if internals sizing was different per class? Like the AC was a 4-slot (doesn't exist, I know) on a Scout but a 2-slot on a Rocketeer. And then the Fuel Converter is a 4 for the big guys and a 2 for the little guys. Not using that example specifically, but you get the idea. That seems like a fuzzy bunny to program into the game, maybe, but I still think it would offer more internal balance to the game, which is what a lot of people are asking for. There's a reason we see a lot of the same mech builds, and that's because the internals don't offer much variation between mechs-classes. What works on your B class probably works well for you on some A builds. That to me seems a bit like a waste.

 

I love this idea, because it offer more different item builds on mechs instead of just a handful of reasonable ones!



#30
_incitatus

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The only thing I feel they need to do to AC is remove the level requirement for equipping it.

Make it (and the rest of the internals and items) available at any level and maybe adjust the HC pricing.
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#31
Superkamikazee

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Yeah the air compressor is really a non-issue. Maybe make it a bit more accessible, at a lower pilot level.

 

Now as for servers...did anyone here ever play Unreal Tournament, or run their own server, or play on a "competition" type server? Use a mutator? I believe comp-style Quake had many of the same things I am talking about here...

 

First of all, the person running the server had complete control of the gameplay on that server. There were servers with low gravity, game speed running at 150%, weapon only mutators, star wars maps, maps with music, really any kind of mod you can imagine. You could set up any kind of arena you wanted. The game was still familiar enough, and allowed you to really find what type of play you liked best. I used to play UT on a 155/55 server (155% game speed, 55% gravity) it had all these crazy maps, and Bin Slayer weapons, crazy sniper weapons, etc. Any needed packages for the mods were pushed from the server and stored in cache on the player's computer. Utilities were developed to clean the cache and make the maps and mods permanently savable and installable from disk. 

 

There were also mutators for competition, UT Comp comes to mind. This and others, allowed you to force bright skins on the enemies, custom hit sounds, way better crosshairs than the game shipped with, easily administrate the server, start and restart matches, and add and remove its mutators from a GUI, and much more.

 

Now imagine taking this and applying to Hawken. Private - but not necessarily passworded servers, with a description of any mutators. You could run a no air compressor server, a scout only match with 150% game speed, sniper haven, no tech allowed server, one shot insta-kill mutator, really anything you wanted to do. 

 

There were of course plenty of "private" vanilla servers with untouched, stock gameplay, and official servers as well.

 

These are things that the community can and would do. Release the server package, with Linux support, and watch what pops up. You want to see what people want, see the way they actually choose to play when given the freedom to mod the game (within limits, not talking total conversions here)

 

 

This may be the most reasonable solution to all this. Allow players to adjust servers, and then LET THE BEST SERVERS SURVIVE! 

 

Allow the community to pick the Hawken they like most. 


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#32
hestoned

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i dont think anyone has actually put forth an argument for the removal of wind walking other than "its hard to hit" and "zerker". i swear im not trying to be condescending and i really mean this when i say i just want to hear an explenation. some video evidence or some data that shows cleary its massive advantage over non wind walking mechs. ive yet to see it. if you guys want this removed so badly you need a better argument. just not liking it is not enough

 

and custom servers would be AWSOME. if i could first thing i would do is remove all destoyable terrain and vehicles. no more giving away my position from those pesky street lights!!


Edited by hestoned, 27 March 2015 - 07:45 AM.

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#33
Superkamikazee

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A lot of this may come down to "fun" factor, and accessibility. What the quasi pro players consider "fun" may vary vastly from what the filthy casuals consider "fun". There may never exist a happy median for those two divides. It's like there needs to be two Hawkens in Hawken. A "sim esque" (Forza 4* flavored take on mech sims), and a full on arena mech shooter (Unreal Tournament flavored). Add a TDM varient to appease the simmy vibes, see what happens.

 

* I chose Forza 4 as the example because it's sim based game with an arcadey flavor when compared to games like iRacing, Assetto Corsa, rFactor.

 

At this point just taking someones word for it, even with evidence about hard core stats, testing, dps values, fuel values doesn't mean the game is going to be fun. I mean yes that stuff is super important, but at the end of the day is it what makes the game FUN? Just some food for thought. Hawken needs to get to a point that there's enough people playing to support the game.


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#34
Deaod

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if you guys want this removed so badly you need a better argument. just not liking it is not enough


There are legitimate reasons for the call to remove the air compressor.

For example, it makes protracted flight a viable strategy by giving you better tools to evade damage while in the air, which negates most splash damage, except for that from TOWs and the GL. Flying is also a good way to avoid being killed by EOC mines.

Flying gives those players using it a better angle to use the splash damage of, e.g. the HEAT, compared to those players staying on the ground.

The air compressor also allows aborting jumppads mid-flight, a move that is impossible for those not using it.

 

What im trying to get at is that for what the air-compressor is, it has a lot of major upsides, and not a whole lot of downsides.


Edited by Deaod, 27 March 2015 - 08:11 AM.

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#35
Sylhiri

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i dont think anyone has actually put forth an argument for the removal of wind walking other than "its hard to hit" and "zerker". i swear im not trying to be condescending and i really mean this when i say i just want to hear an explenation. 

 

I said like a billion times that the cover in maps make air combat, more specifically sustain air combat better then burst ground combat and also makes A classes more disadvantaged by taking away the thing that increases their TTK.

 

I even put it in a big ass font size.


Edited by Sylhiri, 27 March 2015 - 08:12 AM.

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#36
CraftyDus

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I've wanted private servers since I began playing, but it's incompatible with the f2p economy system.

Not just for the custom physics fun factor ( don't like flying? like flying always?),  but also for the performance improvements I enjoy with my own servers.


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#37
HugeGuts

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Though I wanted to remove air combat from the game, I have a compromise I can agree with.

The basic idea is to make air combat exactly like ground combat. This should make it good enough to be an option. But since hovering constantly uses fuel, ground combat is still preferable. Here are the details:

o Hovering is exactly like walking. Mechs can hover and fire in any direction. Acceleration and top speeds are the same as a mech's walking acceleration and top speed. Unlike walking, hovering constantly uses fuel.

o All mechs can dodge, 180, and boost forward in the air. The mechanics and numbers for these stats when in the air are the same as the mechanics and numbers when on the ground.

#38
Mergaz

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It's simple ... Ascension and Steam patches were ADH colossal mistakes that should be forgotten and the game should be balanced from the pre-ascension status by the new team.  The current metagame is a failure in terms of retention of players, then, must be completely redone as soon as possible. They should be concerned, first in creating a general gameplay that really attracts thousands of players and minor balance adjustments. That game was abandoned for lack of revenue in the first time and did not want that to happen again.


Edited by Mergaz, 28 March 2015 - 04:54 AM.


#39
comic_sans

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and custom servers would be AWSOME. if i could first thing i would do is remove all destoyable terrain and vehicles. no more giving away my position from those pesky street lights!!

 

Or that time yesterday where you blew up a tanker and yourself instead of me!  I'd play on that setting.


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#40
_incitatus

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It's simple ... Ascension and Steam patches were ADH colossal mistakes that should be forgotten and the game should be balanced from the pre-ascension status by the new team. The current metagame is a failure in terms of retention of players, then, must be completely redone as soon as possible. They should be concerned, first in creating a general gameplay that really attracts thousands of players and minor balance adjustments. That game was abandoned for lack of revenue in the first time and did not want that to happen again.


I don't think it was the current meta that failed to retain players so much as the lack of new content.
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