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#41
crockrocket

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This might help some:

Spoiler

 

As long as I have you here, can you tell us anything about the hierarchy of priorities for Hawken development now?

 

Sadly the issues discussed in that video would require a modicum of competence to fix.


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Salvage: An Idea to Stop Leavers

Player Retention & Howken

 

[14:31] <Crafty> I know that in my balls
[14:32] <Crafty> hawken is unlike anything Ive played

 

 


#42
CZeroFive

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As long as I have you here, can you tell us anything about the hierarchy of priorities for Hawken development now?

We're hoping to have a roadmap out soon of what we're working on. Clearly we haven't communicated enough and clearly communication needs to be allowed from the community.

 

 

And your solution was to add emojis and a progression system that looks P2W at first glance? I seem to recall having to scour the menus in the console build to even find the tutorial.

 

To be fair, those emojis weren't meant to help those retention efforts. They were used to revitalize the content pipeline so we can add additional content in the future of those types. It's really hard to make new content when you have no clue what the pipeline was/is to add new content let alone factor in the lore of the game. We had to track down the places in code to see where we'd go to add these items. As for the progression system, it clearly only looks that way and needs some adjustments. It isn't presented well which is part of the revenue problem.

 

If we do end up keeping the G2s with upcoming content, they will likely be identical to the G1s in terms of stats. More on that when we get something set in stone.

 

 

RIP comp play. Not so sure "fairness for the community" has anything to do with it though, so long as people pay for it.

 

Why not both?

We would rather make large scale adjustments to the game that are generally agreed on by the community for casual play. At the end of the day, someone needs to make a decision, and it's always us.

 

 

Also I fail to see how more players does not translate to more revenue, if purely from a law of large numbers perspective.

 

If 1000 people come into the game and find nothing to buy that they feel is worth spending money, then that's 1000 people that didn't pay for a single thing and just came to smell the roses. That's one of the problems, Hawken has historically never been a financially profitable game. That was seen with both Adhesive and Meteor. There's simply nothing that people feel attached to. We need to give them something to make players attached to the game and willing to spend money again.


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#43
nepacaka

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All three of these comments border opinions, in all honesty.
Maybe. But G2-assault (and 36m, charge) are very cheapy. they have only one way to play, they don't have altirnative. all things whuch they can do press W+LMB, because they no TOW. these mech probably not very interesting if compared with other hawken mechs, which have different way to use + several weapons.

 

 

The same could be said about any mech, really, beyond the ones that are overpowered. The problem with making these changes are really that there would be no short-term benefit to buffing them. 
not about any. Brawler cant kill whole team in 15 sec. he just overheat after 4 flak+tow shots. I don't really think that raider is actually bad, because he have one the most combination in any game, speed and damage. most of mech is like higher HP, low damage/DPS, or higher speed, low HP. But some mech, like inci, have high HP, high dps, and high speed (for C-class), at the cost of... low fueltank? really. and he actually have enough fuel, lol. the same story with assault. salt have very high 3 stats, HP, dps, speed, and his disatvantages actually don't cost much for him.

I'm agree that incinirator is weak maybe on consoles it is very weak, because it is very hard to control on gamepad. but on PC it is not hard if train a little. But like i say, he have insane potencial, and problem how it used by good players.


What if the changes we make to underpowered mechs cause another balance issue?
How it can cause more problem, than it actually caused already, if you just nerf it?
 

 

I am talking about the players who play one match and then never play again. There's an alarming amount of them and we've been tracking that data for a good couple months now. Here's a few things I identified that took virtually no time to think of:

 

1) The core gameplay is not fun to beginning users. No amount of balance changes will fix that. We have an uninspiring tutorial with monotone voiceovers and hand-holding, the game is confusing to understand unless you invest time into it, and there's not really a rhyme or reason to come back to the game and play it once you've experienced it once.
My personal opinion. 
The TTK (Time To Kill) is too high. this is why game not fun. interesting - yes (if you play in it long and understand how it working), fun - no.
 

My opinion based on +/- steam patch, where weapon damage was higher, and the HP was lower.
The higher HP cause bigger gap between high-skill player, and low skill-player. When nub theing to kill pro, he need doing minimum 4-5 effective shoots. + added air-compressor here. there is maximum which nub can do - 1-2 effective attack, and miss all other. even if they do 3-4 sucessfully attack in a row, high-skill player just press shift+s and runaway, and then return with full HP, and situation continues. it is sad.

When devs announce steam patch (invasion update? i don't remember how it called), it was fun. game is much more easier for me, because even with cheap accuracy, 3 effective shots can beat brawler. it is mean, if some one else damage enemy, you actually can lay TOW in him and kill. it is mean you need 1-2 effective shot to kill someone. if it A-class, you can do 1 accuracy shot (like flak+tow) and you kill it. but you also can die very fast. but it is fun. more deaths, faster fights. 

at least for me, game was easier than now, and especially than ascention (when i play with 100 ping, and it always be annoying when enemy have 20-30 hp and just runaway and you can't hit him, even you full of concentrate, hit him 4-5 tow, spent 20 sec for this, and he just runaway back to his team, and you can't do nothing, and just press C. waste of time.

 


Kompotka 3000. 2D ha?ken game: https://community.pl...ve/?hl=kompotka

Interceptor, B-Class mech concept: https://community.pl...itdefence-mech/

Challenger, C-Class mech concept: https://community.pl...ccepted-thread/

G2-Brawler, C-class mech concept: https://community.pl...pacaka-is-here/

Kinetik, B-class mech concept: https://community.pl...ass-shotgunner/

Melter, A-class mech concept: https://community.pl...-class-support/


#44
nepacaka

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To be fair, those emojis weren't meant to help those retention efforts. 

to be honest, emoji is not a problem.
but transparent-energy-camo... it is a problem. you literally can see your own thrusters through a mech, because u mech...mmm... not created from metal. xD


Kompotka 3000. 2D ha?ken game: https://community.pl...ve/?hl=kompotka

Interceptor, B-Class mech concept: https://community.pl...itdefence-mech/

Challenger, C-Class mech concept: https://community.pl...ccepted-thread/

G2-Brawler, C-class mech concept: https://community.pl...pacaka-is-here/

Kinetik, B-class mech concept: https://community.pl...ass-shotgunner/

Melter, A-class mech concept: https://community.pl...-class-support/


#45
CZeroFive

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Sadly the issues discussed in that video would require a modicum of competence to fix.

 

Thankfully we have a 'modicum' and then some of competence to left click and drag an invis wall item in the Unreal editor and stretch it to block off these types of walls and other placement issues described in that video listed above.

 

If only we had a 'modicum' of development time allocated to individually go through and fix these issues, spend the 5-6 hours on rebuilding lighting and pathing, confirm the fixes locally, internally test the fixes to make sure we did not introduce further issues, and publish these fixes for the PC game all while backporting them to the console game. It's not a matter of competence, it's a matter of priority with contractual obligations, customer support issues, and other priorities that take up a large part of our time.

 

In comparison, those holotaunts took maybe 4 hours to put together once we found the right code sections for implementing them.


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#46
crockrocket

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Thankfully we have a 'modicum' and then some of competence to left click and drag an invis wall item in the Unreal editor and stretch it to block off these types of walls and other placement issues described in that video listed above.

 

If only we had a 'modicum' of development time allocated to individually go through and fix these issues, spend the 5-6 hours on rebuilding lighting and pathing, confirm the fixes locally, internally test the fixes to make sure we did not introduce further issues, and publish these fixes for the PC game all while backporting them to the console game. It's not a matter of competence, it's a matter of priority with contractual obligations, customer support issues, and other priorities that take up a large part of our time.

 

In comparison, those holotaunts took maybe 4 hours to put together once we found the right code sections for implementing them.

 

The devs may be competent but clearly those in charge of them are not.


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Salvage: An Idea to Stop Leavers

Player Retention & Howken

 

[14:31] <Crafty> I know that in my balls
[14:32] <Crafty> hawken is unlike anything Ive played

 

 


#47
CZeroFive

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What if the changes we make to underpowered mechs cause another balance issue?
How it can cause more problem, than it actually caused already, if you just nerf it?

 

 

 

You'd introduce loadouts that are not traditionally used to become useful again. Then people will be asking for a nerf to those loadouts, because they deal too much damage. Before too long, everything will deal 0 damage because the game is too hard for people. Also, if you nerf a loadout, that's contrary to the below:

 

 

The TTK (Time To Kill) is too high. this is why game not fun. interesting - yes (if you play in it long and understand how it working), fun - no.

 

If you nerf these loadouts the TTK would be even higher than it is now. Wouldn't buffing the other mechs be the direction to go if you wanted to lower the TTK?



#48
CZeroFive

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to be honest, emoji is not a problem.
but transparent-energy-camo... it is a problem. you literally can see your own thrusters through a mech, because u mech...mmm... not created from metal. xD

 

Yeah, it's something we tried out. It's actually one of the more lore friendly choices (considering the importance of energy units in the Hawken universe). Surprised it was picked apart in the same way that the emojis were.



#49
nepacaka

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There's simply nothing that people feel attached to. We need to give them something to make players attached to the game and willing to spend money again.

 

 

also, if you can "keep player in game", like us (i mean community who play in game), people buy something what they like. and buy camo for mech, or detail.

if you just attract 1000 people in game, they spent 0 money. 
because, they play several days, and what is this game look, and how it to play. It is cost to buy something and continue to play? or not?

players always see badass mechs, going in game, but then, when they play 1 day. 3 days. 1 week. they actually start Understand, how this game is Really working. they start see problems, they see how they sux, start playing with higher skill players and can't kill nobody, because everyone flying around on berserker and shred every people who can't counter air-compressor in 2 sec.

and actually, on console the "nief" do the same with people. just shred even brawler in 2-3 sec. if player don't use corner play and all stuff.
should i say that is you creating a mech, which Totally shred nubs, and have a legal aimbot, and ability with 90-100% boost (at the same time, PC berserker have only 10-20%)
And, community tell you, about problem with rocketeers, and seeker weapon. if devs read the forum, they probably should know aboit this fact. i mean, this is not my opinion, seeketer shreds the nubs, it is just fact. and they always complain about it. so, creating thing which is MUCH more scary than seketeer - very nice move :D


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Kompotka 3000. 2D ha?ken game: https://community.pl...ve/?hl=kompotka

Interceptor, B-Class mech concept: https://community.pl...itdefence-mech/

Challenger, C-Class mech concept: https://community.pl...ccepted-thread/

G2-Brawler, C-class mech concept: https://community.pl...pacaka-is-here/

Kinetik, B-class mech concept: https://community.pl...ass-shotgunner/

Melter, A-class mech concept: https://community.pl...-class-support/


#50
CZeroFive

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and actually, on console the "nief" do the same with people. just shred even brawler in 2-3 sec. if player don't use corner play and all stuff.

 

I don't think you played console recently. The Nief is actually nerfed into oblivion, it has issues even killing mechs in training modes let alone other players. It has some of the lowest accuracy, we tweaked the lockon rate of it, and the damage is about one half of what it was when the Nief was released.



#51
Hyginos

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Yeah, it's something we tried out. It's actually one of the more lore friendly choices (considering the importance of energy units in the Hawken universe). Surprised it was picked apart in the same way that the emojis were.

 
Because its fuzzy bunnyng hideous.
 
Honestly it looks like the energy barrier texture was just copy pasted onto a mech chassis then had the bloom turned up to 11.
 
EDIT:
 

We would rather make large scale adjustments to the game that are generally agreed on by the community for casual play. At the end of the day, someone needs to make a decision, and it's always us.

 

I agree, but passworded or invite-only servers are not mutually exclusive to good game design. I just want to be able to put together organized matches. Whether or not the changes RLD makes to the game leave it worth playing in a comp format is another matter entirely. 


Edited by Hyginos, 18 October 2016 - 12:11 PM.

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#52
nepacaka

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If you nerf these loadouts the TTK would be even higher than it is now. Wouldn't buffing the other mechs be the direction to go if you wanted to lower the TTK?

When i talk about TTK, i mean - decrease mech HP (or increase weapon damage, i mean, fully rebalance. for every mech)
i just tell how it was for me.

ascention patch (where brawler have 1150 HP) was super boring for me. you shooting, shooting, shooting, but nothing happen. especially when it 4-5 C-Class in team from both sides.

steam-patch, where brawler have less than 800 HP, and can be lay down with 2-3 rockets + some pew-pew. was much more funny. and scout which can got oneshot was fun. it is literally sometimes required less than second if you and your teammate just throw 2 TOW in assault and it die.

 

Yeah, it's something we tried out. It's actually one of the more lore friendly choices (considering the importance of energy units in the Hawken universe). Surprised it was picked apart in the same way that the emojis were.

 

i actually don't care about lore. but i'm fun of mechs (and i think not only, who came play in hawken), and when i hear "game about mechs" i want see "mechs". this thing is not look like mech. it doesn't matter from which energy it was done.

by the way, mech in hawken created from trash+cavorite metal. i argee if you added some "areol" or shining/neon lamps on mech. it is OK. but on mech with "material" body xD 


 


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Kompotka 3000. 2D ha?ken game: https://community.pl...ve/?hl=kompotka

Interceptor, B-Class mech concept: https://community.pl...itdefence-mech/

Challenger, C-Class mech concept: https://community.pl...ccepted-thread/

G2-Brawler, C-class mech concept: https://community.pl...pacaka-is-here/

Kinetik, B-class mech concept: https://community.pl...ass-shotgunner/

Melter, A-class mech concept: https://community.pl...-class-support/


#53
DerMax

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When i talk about TTK, i mean - decrease mech HP (or increase weapon damage, i mean, fully rebalance. for every mech)
i just tell how it was for me.

ascention patch (where brawler have 1150 HP) was super boring for me. you shooting, shooting, shooting, but nothing happen. especially when it 4-5 C-Class in team from both sides.

steam-patch, where brawler have less than 800 HP, and can be lay down with 2-3 rockets + some pew-pew. was much more funny. and scout which can got oneshot was fun. it is literally sometimes required less than second if you and your teammate just throw 2 TOW in assault and it die.

 

i actually don't care about lore. but i'm fun of mechs (and i think not only, who came play in hawken), and when i hear "game about mechs" i want see "mechs". this thing is not look like mech. it doesn't matter from which energy it was done.

by the way, mech in hawken created from trash+cavorite metal. i argee if you added some "areol" or shining/neon lamps on mech. it is OK. but on mech with "material" body xD 


 

Yeah, how about they don't turn Hawken into a Call of Duty with mechs?


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#54
MomOw

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Thanks Nepacaka and CZeroFive to keep that forum alive.

 

I'm just coming from 4 weeks of Public Test Server in another that the devs are trying to save. IMHO such kind of explicit try and error method would really be welcome...


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#55
CZeroFive

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Yeah, how about they don't turn Hawken into a Call of Duty with mechs?

 

Would prefer to stay away from a lower TTK anyways. Not a big fan of COD-style games and I don't think it fits in with the mech shooter genre. These things can take a beating.


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#56
CZeroFive

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I agree, but passworded or invite-only servers are not mutually exclusive to good game design. I just want to be able to put together organized matches. Whether or not the changes RLD makes to the game leave it worth playing in a comp format is another matter entirely. 

 

I agree with the sentiment that the game has to be fun to be playing in a competitive setting. Otherwise you have those 'fox only, no items, final destination' rulesets, and that's no fun either, even in casual play. The core gameplay has got to be engaging so you don't end up having to 'ban internals'. So in a sense, we can't really ignore that some things are inheritly broken. It's just a matter of defining what they are and changing them.

 

When we say 'internals', we group them into the same category (or at least I do in my head) as things you can swap out in a mech, whether it be items or actual internals. I apologize for the confusion there. I think I misspoke about the scanner earlier.


Edited by CZeroFive, 18 October 2016 - 12:29 PM.


#57
DerMax

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Would prefer to stay away from a lower TTK anyways. Not a big fan of COD-style games and I don't think it fits in with the mech shooter genre. These things can take a beating.

To add to this. Some of the defining features of Hawken:

 

1. Fuel management

2. Heat management

3. High-ish TTK

4. Item/internal system

5. Repairing

 

Take these away, and you get a run-of-the-mill first person shooter with funny skins/textures.


Edited by DerMax, 18 October 2016 - 12:33 PM.

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#58
nepacaka

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I don't think you played console recently. The Nief is actually nerfed into oblivion, it has issues even killing mechs in training modes let alone other players. It has some of the lowest accuracy, we tweaked the lockon rate of it, and the damage is about one half of what it was when the Nief was released.

 

yeah, i see new about nief nerf, but it doesn't look actually like a "oblivion"

you still probably not understand my idea correct.


just my quote about nief, which i say "long time ago", when Devs created Nief mech.

No I don't want remove it from game. This mech can't be buying by HC, so, just let Nief as consoles exclusive mech. And this move help easily avoid any problems in PC patch (in future) like we have with rockee, before ADH change it and nerfed into oblivion. I think rocketeer and incin stories was enough to learn "how you shouldn't creating a mech" lesson.
Btw, the same story was with g2-salt, when it comes with very good dps, but being nerfing into hmm... not very powerful mech at all. This is how it working if you broken solid game rules.
Probably, if devs trying to nerf Nief, this lead only to one way:
- Nief will be a ugly mech in high tier
- Nief still will be shred nubs in 2-3 seconds.

Did we really need mech like this? Which no one needed, but only cause alot of problems and whining at low tier?
And at the same time, you can buy it only for $, so it cause even more whining about p2w, when Nief shred some nubs in low-tier lobby, and player start think, that this mech deal alot of damage just because someone buy it for money and got insane dps+guidance.

The same story like smart pistol in TF, and absolutely don't matter, it is OP, or not. Just exists this thing is enough to whine or making some negative reaction about "why this thing buying for money is rili strong?", or creating some topics on forum like "what the f is this?" or "it is imba! Nerf!!1"

 

this is what about i'm talking about.

the same story like with G2-salt (i mean PC G2-salt). the same story will wait the 36m, and Charge. xD
it is always happen when you create mech which is just "press X to win". Than you always nerf it into oblivion. if you ignore negative reaction, people just leave from game because don't want to play against this "imba".

as i say, the real problem of this mech, not because it is super-powerful. but this mech is very fast kill nubs due specific of seeker weapon. and put 2 seeker - it is a bad idea. you just don't know it. It doesn't matter that it sux at 2000+ rate.

Look at G2-Raider actually, which ADH created after useless G2-assault. G2R is actually, one of the standart hawken mechs. it is not easy to play, but hard to mastery. it have very good advantages (damage, speed), and some really bad disadvantaged (dps, reloading, low HP). it also can play differently, despite he have only T32 and KLA and can't change it. it is not imba, it is not nerfed mech (if talk about 6vs6. obviously, it is really strong in 1vs1, but we talk about teamplay. Also, it can be very hard depend on map if you see 2-3 G2R in one team. literally, they can kill you in one second even if you brawler :C)

New hawken mechs should be like G2-raider, not like G2-assault or nief/charge/36m


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Kompotka 3000. 2D ha?ken game: https://community.pl...ve/?hl=kompotka

Interceptor, B-Class mech concept: https://community.pl...itdefence-mech/

Challenger, C-Class mech concept: https://community.pl...ccepted-thread/

G2-Brawler, C-class mech concept: https://community.pl...pacaka-is-here/

Kinetik, B-class mech concept: https://community.pl...ass-shotgunner/

Melter, A-class mech concept: https://community.pl...-class-support/


#59
nepacaka

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Yeah, how about they don't turn Hawken into a Call of Duty with mechs?

they actually can't. 

because tech lose his role (as it happen a little on steam-patch, where people most of time die faster, than tech can heal them).

i feel, the current TTK is Normal for me, but i fel that consoles HP stats (like 900HP brawler) move it more to ascention. + they decrease dodge.


BUT. i see only one thing today. i see how many people NOT play in hawken.
i say it before, and say again - Hawken can't stay in current form, it should be change.

 

Because now it can't keep player in game. This game can be super cool, and great, but... people not play in it. or can't play in it. or what else reason.
it is still game only for elitish players. also, hawken with current speed is literally unplayable with ping higher than 100, mech moving so fast. i tried it once, play with high ping, i was in "rage" mode after 50 second of play.


i also can agree with closed-beta 3 variant. it was more comfortable for me long time ago. mech was a little slower (walk, boost), and have a faling stuns, and other slower things, which happen if pilot do a mistake while moving. it help to shoot in enemy in this moment. 
game was less "about reaction". more like mech feeling. 

but when we have "normal" hawken in 2012, people start cry it was slower, sticky, etc. and now we have this. game with hellish speed, no delay, and compressors. and some of people actually want about "even faster".

people many times suggest turn hawken more into simulator, but community want "mech shooter". it is still mech shooter, the problem which we know long time ago. mechs fans not play in hawken because hawken not a simulator, FPS fan not play - because it is game about mech and you can't make a headshot or kill someone fast (as a result, you sux if you don't have a skill, because this is not CS)
 

 

 

5. Repairing

 

i play with tech several rounds like 6-1-12 or +/-.
sometimes i forgot that "C" button actually exist in game. Tech probably even don't know where is "C" on the keybord and which function it have in game.

2. Heat management

 

another thing ruined by inci and ADH not good ideas, which is not compared with starting hawken conception at all.

edit:mistakes
 


Edited by nepacaka, 18 October 2016 - 01:40 PM.

Kompotka 3000. 2D ha?ken game: https://community.pl...ve/?hl=kompotka

Interceptor, B-Class mech concept: https://community.pl...itdefence-mech/

Challenger, C-Class mech concept: https://community.pl...ccepted-thread/

G2-Brawler, C-class mech concept: https://community.pl...pacaka-is-here/

Kinetik, B-class mech concept: https://community.pl...ass-shotgunner/

Melter, A-class mech concept: https://community.pl...-class-support/


#60
StubbornPuppet

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I concur with CZeroFive that we do not need a lower TTK.  I don't care what reasons people say that I want it, I just want battles to last a bit longer so I have more of a mech shoot-out.  COD sucks.

 

I concur with Nepa on his thoughts about the G2 Raider.  It is EXACTLY what a G2 mech should be - different, balanced, harder to master.  (and harder to master doesn't mean that it's not as good, just that you have to really work at learning it and then be sharp and attentive to your use of it in-game.  I liked that the G2 Raider was based on the weapon set and special of the normal Raider, but veered off course in body type, speed and difficulty.


Edited by StubbornPuppet, 18 October 2016 - 01:11 PM.

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To be serious for a moment this is just a joke

 


#61
nepacaka

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Also, When ADH making his changing and almost delete
- walking acceleration (it is still exist, but almost noticeable)
- diferrent states as walk and run (it is still exist, but almost noticeable)
- dynamic spread for wepons
- stuns (it is still exist, but almost noticeable, especially on A-class, if you not falling from top of origin)
- added "infinity" dodges (and allow scouts moving with almost the same speed even with 0 fuel)
- added stupid jumping and bunny-hops (which make mechs lookin really stupid. and they trying to justify it with stupid lore like: "our mechs created from cavorite and they weigh 2 tonnes, which is obviously stupid, because brawler should weight minimum 20t. and i spit on physics and lore, because it is a game, and brawler look like 20t mech)
- added auto-cooling heat system

this game not more feeling like "mechs" at all.
you probably can got some mech feelings only if piloting C-classes mech. If you play in a-class, you litteraly play in Unreal tournament with 2 guns. or something like this. So, this game is about CoD long time ago. All what we still got, is a funny movement mechanics, which still sux because compressors everywhere. why i use r-doge like stupid nub, when everyone use corner-jump-airdodge back, repeat? i feel that this is not Hawken like it should be, and how it was before ascention. And these "jumping brawlers"... really? it is really look stupid when massive machine jumping on you and moving even faster while jump, but if you trying hold space and fly...it flying slower. paradox. it is really broken right now. 

 

I concur with Nepa on his thoughts about the G2 Raider.  It is EXACTLY what a G2 mech should be - different, balanced, harder to master.  (and harder to master doesn't mean that it's not as good, just that you have to really work at learning it and then be sharp and attentive to your use of it in-game.  I liked that the G2 Raider was based on the weapon set and special of the normal Raider, but veered off course in body type, speed and difficulty.

 

let say, it is "specific" vehicle.
 


Edited by nepacaka, 18 October 2016 - 01:44 PM.

Kompotka 3000. 2D ha?ken game: https://community.pl...ve/?hl=kompotka

Interceptor, B-Class mech concept: https://community.pl...itdefence-mech/

Challenger, C-Class mech concept: https://community.pl...ccepted-thread/

G2-Brawler, C-class mech concept: https://community.pl...pacaka-is-here/

Kinetik, B-class mech concept: https://community.pl...ass-shotgunner/

Melter, A-class mech concept: https://community.pl...-class-support/


#62
teeth_03

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Probably the main reason for lack of player retention is not the game play, but rather the long ass grind to unlock stuff.

 

You start with only 1 mech, and the road to unlock more mechs is a long one for new players.

 

So here is a thought that could help

 

Level 0 - Unlock Starter Mech (Assault or CRT)

Level 5 - A Free Class A or C Mech (these would be specifically defined with a full load out of goodies), you get to choose between the 2

Level 10 - Whatever you didn't choose at Level 5

 

You would make sure players are aware that at those levels, you get a Free Mech, that way, even without spending any coin on anything, they would have 3 mechs by Level 10

 

On another note, one of my biggest gripes has always been the Items and Internals. These are the only real way to customize your mech so its different from other players, considering you only have 3 weapon choices. These items are fairly high in price, and they are unlocked per-mech which I have always felt is ridiculous. So i normally just go without them which puts me at a disadvantage. I would rather be able to buy an item, and take that item off a mech and put it on another so i can try that item out before I buy more of that item. I would also pay real money for a Global Unlock option for items.

 

On a final note, rentable servers are great for the community. You should give us a whole bunch of options to customize the game with them. We could still have a "ranked" mode that puts it on default settings and allows people to level up, while giving us the ability to change various settings for unranked matches.


Edited by teeth_03, 19 October 2016 - 03:40 AM.

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#63
nepacaka

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Probably the main reason for lack of player retention is not the game play, but rather the long ass grind to unlock stuff.

 

You start with only 1 mech, and the road to unlock more mechs is a long one for new players.

 

So here is a thought that could help

 

Level 0 - Unlock Starter Mech (Assault or CRT)

Level 5 - A Free Class A or C Mech (these would be specifically defined with a full load out of goodies), you get to choose between the 2

Level 10 - Whatever you didn't choose at Level 5

 

You would make sure players are aware that at those levels, you get a Free Mech, that way, even without spending any coin on anything, they would have 3 mechs by Level 10

 

On another note, one of my biggest gripes has always been the Items and Internals. These are the only real way to customize your mech so its different from other players, considering you only have 3 weapon choices. These items are fairly high in price, and they are unlocked per-mech which I have always felt is ridiculous. So i normally just go without them which puts me at a disadvantage. I would rather be able to buy an item, and take that item off a mech and put it on another so i can try that item out before I buy more of that item. I would also pay real money for a Global Unlock option for items.

 

On a final note, rentable servers are great for the community. You should give us a whole bunch of options to customize the game with them. We could still have a "ranked" mode that puts it on default settings and allows people to level up, while giving us the ability to change various settings for unranked matches.

i feel, that we need allow play at any G1 mechs free, without unlock. but you need spent money and EXP to unlock G2. (but my idea actually based on conception where G2 not a direct upgrade, but an "alternative" for G1 with pros and cons. so, you can try any mech in some sense. and if you love one, you max.ranked G1, and they buy and G2-alternative, with different stats (like more speed, less hp)

and yes, internals and items should cost lower, to allow player buy a many of them and experimenting with loadouts. it is interesting sometimes, i think.


Kompotka 3000. 2D ha?ken game: https://community.pl...ve/?hl=kompotka

Interceptor, B-Class mech concept: https://community.pl...itdefence-mech/

Challenger, C-Class mech concept: https://community.pl...ccepted-thread/

G2-Brawler, C-class mech concept: https://community.pl...pacaka-is-here/

Kinetik, B-class mech concept: https://community.pl...ass-shotgunner/

Melter, A-class mech concept: https://community.pl...-class-support/


#64
teeth_03

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I don't think we should just give every mech away for free. We need to have that carrot on a stick to keep players wanting to play. The difference is, the carrot should be just out of arms reach instead of a mile away.

That said, there should still be a desire for players to spend money to unlock Mechs and upgrades, they could be a little cheaper, but still enough that buying them would save a bunch of hours of play time.

#65
nepacaka

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We need to have that carrot on a stick to keep players wanting to play

 

G2-mechs can be "carrot on a stick" anyway.


Kompotka 3000. 2D ha?ken game: https://community.pl...ve/?hl=kompotka

Interceptor, B-Class mech concept: https://community.pl...itdefence-mech/

Challenger, C-Class mech concept: https://community.pl...ccepted-thread/

G2-Brawler, C-class mech concept: https://community.pl...pacaka-is-here/

Kinetik, B-class mech concept: https://community.pl...ass-shotgunner/

Melter, A-class mech concept: https://community.pl...-class-support/


#66
StubbornPuppet

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I think the grind is just about perfect.  Almost all games of this type start off basic and require you to 'work' your way through to get everything.  It's part of what keeps you coming back - that feeling of "I am almost all the way leveled up on my Raider and can then start on a new mech."  I see G2's as the "reward" for actually working ones way all the way through (which seems to be gone now) - kind of like "prestige" in that detestable COD MW junk.


To be serious for a moment this is just a joke

 


#67
Brother3J

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In regards to G2 mechs: Try the MWO version of Premium mechs.  You get a slightly different load out but the bonus is more rewards and xp for using the mech. Get rid of the xp and credit boosters and combine them with the G2 mechs.  Gives you incentive to buy Premium without the pay to win and you still get the anti grind benefits. Of course these mechs need to look "Fuzzy Bunny Fabulous"....



#68
teeth_03

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Are G2 mechs worth it though? If the G1 mechs have 3 different weapons to choose from and the G2's are locked to just 1 set, I would rather just see the "Dual Wield" option just unlocked for the G1 mechs at Rank 5.



#69
nepacaka

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I think the grind is just about perfect.  Almost all games of this type start off basic and require you to 'work' your way through to get everything.  It's part of what keeps you coming back - that feeling of "I am almost all the way leveled up on my Raider and can then start on a new mech."  I see G2's as the "reward" for actually working ones way all the way through (which seems to be gone now) - kind of like "prestige" in that detestable COD MW junk.

 

about perfect grind. i playing in MWO, and i just check it's "grind". And you will be pretty "funny" if related some numbers with hawken.

My MWO mechs statistic. on my secret account "ExecutioneerMechNeedLove"

ATLAS AS7-D-DC -10:50:09

ATLAS AS7-RS - 06:41:24

ATLAS AS7-S(L) - 09:58:32

EXECUTIONER EXE-A - 08:11:13

EXECUTIONER EXE-B - 08:43:16

EXECUTIONER EXE-D - 12:39:27

 

Executioner-D and Atlas-RS / DDC is mech which i mostly play. It is mean, i play on EXE-D most of time, And all of these mechs is fully upgraded. 2 of executioneer is Fully equpid with best modules (which cost about many millions of fuzzy bunnyng C-bills) One of EXE and Atlas is sold. i maxed it to 30 lvl because you need a 3 mech to gain "Elite mark" and unlock all skills to be a "super cool guy"

in total: you need about 6-8 hours to maximize mechs.
i also spent ovedose C-bills because i have only 4 slots in hangar. It is mean, you need sold one mech, than Buy it back (i.e. Buy it 2 or even 3 times, and EXE and Atlas is a very high prise mechs it cost about 14-17 millions + money on full upgrade like engine which cost about 10m, weapons, SPRM, endoskelet, 15 small lasors etc.

and i'm actually +/- average player in Mechwarrior with 2-3 pilot rang. it is also because i use very specific high-damage close-range SRM builds for atlas, and SRM+100500 small lasors for executor, which is just funny builds for not serious play (but if you meet something on you way and it stand closer than 50m... it die faster than you xD)


now, look at hawken. 
Some of my new mechs, which i just maxed to 6 rank for fun and never play again or very rare.
Brawler 6 rank (Cychrus) - TimePlayed 13:11:13
Predator 6 rank (Phasmid) - TimePlayed 14:00:56
Assault 6 rank (Thermite) - TimePlayed 13:11:43
Assault 5 rank (Treehopper) - TimePlayed 8:02:06 (still working on it)
Grenadier 4.5 rank (Firefly) - TimePlayed 6:08:41 (grenadier with Heat)

These numbers can be much more higher for different player. because you know how i play, i can play in siege and earn 600, 800, 1000+ scores. or very often be a 1-2 second place in score table, i bring much EU to earn EXP, or even can easily farm EXP with bots (because there is absolutely no difference in hawken how you farm your EXP, the time will be +/- equal). it is also based on mechs. For example, Raider, Salt, Bers, Brawler it is much more easy to ranked, than ugly Bruiser, or Heat gren, EOK rockee, etc. Due the second mechs is a "slowpoke" and can't killing thousand of people if you not play with nubs or with bots (actually, 2000+ mmr bots can be more dangerous than nubs, lol)

Actually, 5 rank it all what you need in hawken, and it is THE SAME 8 hours which you need spent in MWO. you will be laugh, but Hawken and MWO is literally EQUAL. Both game based on playing without Donute. I don't use premium accounts in MWO and play like "rogue". 
yes, hawken was much more faster with Before ascetion happen. but now we got equal grind. it is not bad actually.


i also should notice, than my MWO skill and Hawken skill is quite different. I'm much more good at hawken, than in MWO. As i say, i use very specific builds. 
So.

1) you should have 2100+ mmr (Higher than average, but you can play as W+LMB/RMB = to the Glory!) to maxed you mech with 10-14 hrs in hawken

2) you should have minimum 2-3 pilot rank (and play stupid like W+Alpha strike button = to the Glory! like i do) in  to maxed you mech with 8 hrs in MWO

to be honest -> current hawken as quite lose MWO in numbers, and you should have higher skill, to got things faster than if you nub in MWO. i also should notice, than not assault mechs (light, med, heavy) can be leveled in MWO even faster. mech which is literally "imba" in MWO also can be ranked also faster, due the EXE and Atlas not imba, they are slowpoke fun mechs.

old hawken actually allow you play more free, current required some effort. i also feel, that 6 rank in hawken useless. you want got it, and spend time, but it is actually don't got you nothing and you need 60k exp, due the 5 rank required 90k. it is almost maxed whole mech :C
 


Edited by nepacaka, 19 October 2016 - 12:29 PM.

Kompotka 3000. 2D ha?ken game: https://community.pl...ve/?hl=kompotka

Interceptor, B-Class mech concept: https://community.pl...itdefence-mech/

Challenger, C-Class mech concept: https://community.pl...ccepted-thread/

G2-Brawler, C-class mech concept: https://community.pl...pacaka-is-here/

Kinetik, B-class mech concept: https://community.pl...ass-shotgunner/

Melter, A-class mech concept: https://community.pl...-class-support/


#70
StubbornPuppet

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My take on the "grind" being "ideal length" in Hawken is based on average "Time to Master". To me, if I feel like I can say that I have become a proficient expert on a mech at around the same time it is fully leveled up, that's just right.

To be serious for a moment this is just a joke

 


#71
nepacaka

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My take on the "grind" being "ideal length" in Hawken is based on average "Time to Master". To me, if I feel like I can say that I have become a proficient expert on a mech at around the same time it is fully leveled up, that's just right.

yeah maybe. but i feel that grinding from rank 5 to 6 is a waste of time. it is actually long, don't do nothing (if you buy at least one camo). when i play long time ago, i want got all mechs as fast as it possible. 
and "time to mastery" is quite difference. you may spent 50 hrs on G2R or predator, and still sux with it. but mech like salt, brawler, bers play quite easy, and if you play on brawler before, playing berserk not cause problem when you play on it first time. 

i think "mastery" in hawken more not about mechs. but it is about weapons. if you play on heat-infil, heat-gren can be hot hard for you. or if play with breacher and have a habit to charge it, t32-raider also shouldn't cause problems for you, etc.

it is probably accumulate from all your mechs on which you play before. so, if you max ranked all mech, and you need buy let say, new 36m or Civ, i don't think it is caused problem to understand how you should play on it to kill some people or being +/- good after several games, and understand how it working.


Kompotka 3000. 2D ha?ken game: https://community.pl...ve/?hl=kompotka

Interceptor, B-Class mech concept: https://community.pl...itdefence-mech/

Challenger, C-Class mech concept: https://community.pl...ccepted-thread/

G2-Brawler, C-class mech concept: https://community.pl...pacaka-is-here/

Kinetik, B-class mech concept: https://community.pl...ass-shotgunner/

Melter, A-class mech concept: https://community.pl...-class-support/


#72
crockrocket

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Otherwise you have those 'fox only, no items, final destination' rulesets, and that's no fun either, even in casual play.

 

God I hate people who do that


                                                                    JgQjgkx.png

 

Salvage: An Idea to Stop Leavers

Player Retention & Howken

 

[14:31] <Crafty> I know that in my balls
[14:32] <Crafty> hawken is unlike anything Ive played

 

 


#73
dorobo

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As expected.. the core is rotten.. You have to put time and effort to like it and who does that these days?! I allways had that uncomfortable feeling.. in my vids trying to use editing tricks and music to make it look cooler than it acctually is! But it was an effort and work hours :)

Getting back to the roots just might be the answer. You know those old trailer and gameplay vids people kept spamming over the years.. YEARS!  More immersion, more MECH. If there's no goosebumps when first time piloting a mech just empty cans shooting each other whith popcorn miniguns why should i stay when there's million other things to try out there :) 

I like the lore thing you talking about but it's not gonna be enough. Need to fool them completely.

Even if the new player gets stomped if he can feel the potential in the controls the responsivness of the machine GOOSEBUMPS. Third of that thousand players would want to get their revenge one day.

No ammount of balancing and bobbleheads or less grind or less pay to win gonna change anything :) THE CORE EXPERIENCE with the most shittiest base mech needs to be a blast even if player is clueless.

I never played warframe but i bet that is what keeping them players grinding the hell out of it.

 

So it's probably easier said than done but i wish you good luck.

 

edit: don't get me wrong hawken is still better than most of the stuff out there.. it's just that it needs to stand out more. People see pretty graphics they come to try it and it's not what they imagined it would be? Idk maybe mechs are not in fashion anymore..


Edited by dorobo, 20 October 2016 - 06:13 AM.

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#74
Draco3

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CZero Five - is there a reason why there is almost a full minute between the end of a  match and the next one loading?  Is this due to just a number being picked or is this due to something on the backend having to load before the next match can start?  A lot of players (especially new) will jump out of the game whereas if the period was shooter it might be incentive to have another go.  45-60 seconds feels like an eternity before waiting for another 30 seconds for the match to actually start.   


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#75
dorobo

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Draco3, that was shorter but were increased by previous devs when people complained it's too fast that they can't do ninja piss in time. Im afraid it wouldn't change anything. Sometimes it's even too short when you start to chat after the game. I've missed the beggining of the match on many occasions.



#76
nepacaka

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i think that 30 sec after match, and 30 sec before is quite good. (i.e. 1 munute totally), waiting time after match is so boring. even if you typing in chat something.
also, most of players never type nothing than "gg" or "hi/bye". most of time people who typing tonnes of text it is a trolls or your haters, and people who ofennsive you and called a cheater, or talking about "how he love ur momma at yesterday" xD


Edited by nepacaka, 20 October 2016 - 06:41 AM.

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Kompotka 3000. 2D ha?ken game: https://community.pl...ve/?hl=kompotka

Interceptor, B-Class mech concept: https://community.pl...itdefence-mech/

Challenger, C-Class mech concept: https://community.pl...ccepted-thread/

G2-Brawler, C-class mech concept: https://community.pl...pacaka-is-here/

Kinetik, B-class mech concept: https://community.pl...ass-shotgunner/

Melter, A-class mech concept: https://community.pl...-class-support/


#77
CZeroFive

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i think that 30 sec after match, and 30 sec before is quite good. (i.e. 1 munute totally), waiting time after match is so boring. even if you typing in chat something.
also, most of players never type nothing than "gg" or "hi/bye". most of time people who typing tonnes of text it is a trolls or your haters, and people who ofennsive you and called a cheater, or talking about "how he love ur momma at yesterday" xD

 

The biggest problem with the end of match stuff is there's actually behind the scenes stuff going on... with our old data provider, it very well might have taken that full minute to complete the transaction that the 'match has ended'. At times, it would even go over that minute... causing issues with gameplay not saving/recording like you saw before on PC. With the migration, that's no longer as much as an issue, but a full minute as a safeguard isn't a bad idea generally.


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#78
DieselCat

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My bladder isn't as young as it use to be...... :pinch:


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Just Relax....and take life one game at a time....

Don't run to your death....walk

 

th_Duckman.jpg   th_82c0a97c-98de-4aac-be47-05e5e099be80.

 

*+

 


#79
DeeRax

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Do you devs ever plan on changing the names of the new mechs to something more in line with all the other mechs? Charge is OK, by sheer coincidence, but the others that are just named after their chassis do not fit with the names we already have, which are typically somewhat indicative of their role. i.e. ASSAULT is clearly and obviously the go-to frontline assault mech, RAIDER is great at hit-and-run & YOLO-dive assassinations, or raiding, SCOUT is able to cover a lot of ground fast and has a big radar, etc. But what is a Nief? Or a Civ? What does the name 36M tell me anything at all about the mech? Like I said, Charge is OK, coincidentally, because it just charges in with m1 + m2 and then suicides. And what I really don't get is that you folks have the ability to do this, as seen with re-naming the G2 Raider to Marauder, which I think is a great name for it, and is perfectly indicative of what the mech is; Marauder = a beefier or alternative Raider.

I know this is a very minor gripe in comparison to other problems on your plates, but it's goofy, and it's just one more thing that makes the new Howken look like it lacks a lot of polish. I implore you to rename the Neif, 36M, and Civ, and to keep this naming convention in mind in the future. Alternatively, I'd even be O.K. with ALL of the mechs being named after their chassis (Though, again, I think it's better to have names that at least vaguely imply what the mech's role is supposed to be). But the mix of the two naming schemes comes off as lazy and lackluster. :sad:


Edited by DeeRax, 20 October 2016 - 09:29 PM.

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"DeeRax's got what you've always wanted."


#80
nepacaka

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Do you devs ever plan on changing the names of the new mechs to something more in line with all the other mechs? 

the same question with poor 36M arms. and not only him, severals mech also has weapon on picture which they don't have in reality. it is a little fail.


  • DeeRax likes this

Kompotka 3000. 2D ha?ken game: https://community.pl...ve/?hl=kompotka

Interceptor, B-Class mech concept: https://community.pl...itdefence-mech/

Challenger, C-Class mech concept: https://community.pl...ccepted-thread/

G2-Brawler, C-class mech concept: https://community.pl...pacaka-is-here/

Kinetik, B-class mech concept: https://community.pl...ass-shotgunner/

Melter, A-class mech concept: https://community.pl...-class-support/





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