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Pay 2 Win and hacking in Hawken?

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#1
Pap

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Hey sorry for a slighlty (maybe) misleading title but i wanted to start a discussion and saw noone bring this up to light earlier (or i couldn't find the topics, if it was discussed already please post a link-thx)

 

So now that Hawken has a new owner things are going to change.

We know that RELOADED GAMES is now in charge of hawken. and they are most famous with APB RELOADED.

 

AND that game is infamous with hacking and pay2win accusations. Don't get me wrong, i don't want to start a flame war wether or not apb is a p2w but you can find many reports/concerns that it might be in some way. well for me anytime you can buy something with real money and it's really much better-it's a big problem.

 

Hawken used to have only cosmetic stuff that can be bought with real money. (or mechs but mechs can be easily earned by playing the game) and i would say that starting mech is a good mech for begginers so it's not like you start with a plastic club in your hand.

 

So the questions are:

1. How much would you care if the game starts to incorporate some kind of weapons/internals that can be bought more easily with real/ingame money.

2. How much would you care if the game starts to add NEW weapons and internals (like a massive store with lots and lots of them) that can be bought with real/ingame money.

3. How much you are scared this would be true?

4. Was there any statement from capnjosh or RELOADED on this?

 

The other issue is hacking. Oky APB really IS suffering from this. Hawken was also swarmed with hackers once, then they started banning some of them (not sure what was the situation at the very end of earlier life cycle).

The problem was meteor/adhesive for whom 'a hacking player is still a player that might pay real money ingame' so usually they did nothing, even though HARD evidence was presented to them (people abusing map glitches, stream recordings and stuff).

What will be the policy of RELOADED GAMES for this kind of behavious and will we have some easier way to report?ingame with screenshots or sth else. assuming we will still have the hacking problem later on



#2
Superkamikazee

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Fear mongering thread, what could go wrong?


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#3
ticklemyiguana

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I've been lucky enough to have a few pretty good conversations with the people working on Hawken at this point. I'd say the fears you present here are justifiable, based on a couple searches, but frankly, every F2P game has articles written about it accusing it of being P2W, including Hawken in its current state.

Absolutely nothing whatsoever in my conversations with Reloaded has given me the impression that that is the direction they would like to take the game.

If anything, they're attempting to go even further in the direction of cosmetic-only purchases.

If you'd like to know more or have the opportunity to voice these concerns yourself, and I mean literally voice them, come out an hour early to this event: https://community.pl...on-celebration/

Capnjosh, the lead producer for Hawken right now, has set aside an hour before both the EU and US events. I'll actually be drawing up a post for that later in the day.
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#4
Silverfire

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Like ticklemyiguana, I too have had conversations with people working on Hawken now, and it does seem they will be not be taking the direction you fear of.

Oh and abusing map glitches really isn't hacking per se because no external third party software is allowing them to do that, anybody can do so with proper knowledge of the map. I can and I'm not a hacker. It's not ethical, but it's not hacking.

Edited by Silverfire, 31 March 2015 - 04:22 AM.

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#5
ticklemyiguana

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Oh and abusing map glitches really isn't hacking per se because no external third party software is allowing them to do that, anybody can do so with proper knowledge of the map. I can and I'm not a hacker. It's not ethical, but it's not hacking.


Silverfire confirmed hacker.
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#6
DigitAll_Ninja

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I don't like the idea of p2w if is f2p.

 

All items that modify stats in-game should be able to be bought with in game currency as well as with real money.

 

If you don't like the idea of grinding in-game currency, just pay with real money. If you don't want to invest money in a F2P game, start grinding.

 

I play a lot of F2P games, and used to play APB. I left, not because of hackers, but because some weapons were only available with real money (and were better than the ones at my reach). And I didn't like the timer on things I bought with in-game currency. I know it is a business model, and they need to profit from the game, but I don't like that model, and I know a lot of players who does not like it too.

 

I play League of Legends for 5 years now, and I regularly purchase stuff there (all cosmetics), because I want to, and not because I will be in disadvantage with the rest of the players. 

 

I rather pay for new cockpits, skins, colors, models, icons, sounds, and stuff that makes my mech be singular in the battlefield.

 

"Ahaha! Look, that robot is pink with tiny little fuzzy bunnies on it!"

 

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#7
Amidatelion

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Look, this is going to sound aggressive and I'm sorry if it seems overly so, but,

 

did you do any research before starting this thread?

 

More than 50% of your questions have been answered in multiple venues.

 

I am all for having conversations on this topic. But we have had them, we are having them. I get that its easy to be blinded by the ludicrous amounts of "balance" threads rehashing the same tired arguments over and over again, but the forum sections are barely to two pages long.

 

It is difficult to take these discussion threads seriously when the OP hasn't bothered to do a bare minimum of research in the community that they are addressing.


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#8
Fstroke

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The definition of P2W is when there are superior items, weapons, game play affecting things that can ONLY be bought with real money. You know as well as I do that model does not exist in HAWKEN.

Pay 2 Grind yes. Some could argue the grind is too steep and that causes imbalances. But the root of that problem is really a somewhat faulty matchmaking system, which is really probably because of low population. Perhaps another issue is in the current meta, items and internals have too much impact on gameplay where in pre-acension days they were arbitrary and really quite useless. Some debate could be had on which direction to go with that.

The truth is, this whole thread wreaks of hitting the bee's nest and seeing what happens.

#9
Elite_is_salty

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APB is controlled by G1 games. HAWKEN is separated from them. It's HAWKEN INC, and the decision making will not be G1's. So I'm not worried.


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#10
Superkamikazee

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I'm less worried about what Reloaded does with Hawken's F2P systems, and more worried that Hawken the game won't be able to over come it's tainted reputation.


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#11
Pastorius

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@Pap: I'm with Tickle, I know that capnjosh and the team want to get away from P2W asap (not that HAWKEN has a BIG problem with it IMO) but to set your mind at rest ask him for yourself on friday as suggested.  

 

If you don't mind me politely asking? It seams that you might have a bit of an axe to grind regarding hacking. Did you report someone to ADH without getting a response? 


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#12
zorin1

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I would like to see a cheap subscription fee like $12 per year or $20 for lifetime.  Why?  Because, I want to see all these cheater lose something when their account gets disabled.  Maybe the subscription fee could unlock certain game modes.  The problem as I see it, is that I started a new account, got all the mechs now and spent no money.  Now how is Reloaded Games going to make any money?  It is not fair for them but there is nothing that I want to spend my cash on that I can't buy with HC.  So what is going to motivate me to spend money? 

 

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ps. oh yes, I have spend money and I do have the Cupcake.  Wish we could by the Cupcake again.


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#13
HorseHeadProphet

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every time I see the letters "P2W" now, I feel an urge to claw my monitor until my hands bleed.


The Hawken forum's a forum, but it's like the only one you get yelled at for using.


#14
nokari

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So the questions are:

1. How much would you care if the game starts to incorporate some kind of weapons/internals that can be bought more easily with real/ingame money.

2. How much would you care if the game starts to add NEW weapons and internals (like a massive store with lots and lots of them) that can be bought with real/ingame money.

3. How much you are scared this would be true?

4. Was there any statement from capnjosh or RELOADED on this?

 

The other issue is hacking. Oky APB really IS suffering from this. Hawken was also swarmed with hackers once, then they started banning some of them (not sure what was the situation at the very end of earlier life cycle).

The problem was meteor/adhesive for whom 'a hacking player is still a player that might pay real money ingame' so usually they did nothing, even though HARD evidence was presented to them (people abusing map glitches, stream recordings and stuff).

What will be the policy of RELOADED GAMES for this kind of behavious and will we have some easier way to report?ingame with screenshots or sth else. assuming we will still have the hacking problem later on

 

1. Uhh... that's how it has actually been the whole time. People have been able to buy everything with MC for as long as I can remember. It is not P2W, it is pay to not grind as long. P2W implies purchasable content that can't be obtained otherwise or has better, more powerful stats/effects than unpaid content, which is not the case with Hawken at all.

 

2. Again, same thing. It's only an issue if people can't obtain them by any means other than paying with real money. If I can get all those weapons for free just by grinding for enough HC, then buying with MC is only a matter of convenience, not paying to win.

 

3. I'm not scared at all. Fear mongers are scared because of their own imaginations.

 

4. Not that I've personally heard, but it sounded like they have no intention to make the game drastically different. In fact, more adherent to the community's feedback than Adhesive was.

 

 

 

Cheaters typically did NOT pay for MC. That would only increase the downside risk of getting caught cheating... That assumption makes no sense, nor that Adhesive would intentionally ignore cheaters who bought MC. Not only did Adhesive already have the money in their possession, but their ToS clearly states no refunds. They'd have nothing to lose by banning cheaters.

More often than not, it's the accusers making false accusations of cheating or "hacking" and thinking they're providing 100% concrete proof when all they've really submitted is a long video containing only a few frames of someone doing something suspicious.

RG has already stated they take cheating, aka "hacking", seriously. I see no reason to even question whether they wouldn't.


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#15
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Look, this is going to sound aggressive and I'm sorry if it seems overly so, but,

 

did you do any research before starting this thread?

 

It is difficult to take these discussion threads seriously when the OP hasn't bothered to do a bare minimum of research in the community that they are addressing.

and did you took time to at least read all my post or just assumed the content based on topic?cuz u did not address any of the issues i raised but still whined about another topic that was supposedly already talked thru:)?

like i said at the start. i took a quick look at the forums and saw none of my questions answerred. you are not obligated to answer them i just wanted to hear an opinion from different people, please take a good read of my post.

 

If you don't mind me politely asking? It seams that you might have a bit of an axe to grind regarding hacking. Did you report someone to ADH without getting a response? 

yeah i was pretty active with hawken (played since alpha), not the best player but always try to have fun with the game. also shifted thru 2 small casual clans. and durring that many time i encountered multiple 'fishy' situation. and response 'a player is a player' (sth similiar, cant recall the exact words) was a legit response from adhesive when reporting an abusive play (although this happened only once)

 

 

 

as to answer other ppl:

- of course hawken had a shop with real and ingame money but for me the P2W would occur when the grinding process takes extremely extremely long. there are games out there (i wont point my finger to not anger any fans) where you literally had to spend 60+hours to get 1 new weapon that is worth something. i find grinding in hawken pretty easy and not tiring (meaning, it is fast enough)

BUT

the issue was (sorry now i see i did not stated that entirely correctly), what if new owner of hawken changes the 'grinding policy' what if new mechs would require extreme amount of time to get. or weapons or internals

what if they added a whole new store with 50+new weapons/internals/items that will encourage usuall p2w'nners to exploit it more

 

and once again, I'm not asking this as a real real concern. i'm asking just to find out the opinion of all you people, what would you feel would that change anything in hawken for you etc:)?

 

Cheaters typically did NOT pay for MC. That would only increase the downside risk of getting caught cheating... That assumption makes no sense, nor that Adhesive would intentionally ignore cheaters who bought MC. Not only did Adhesive already have the money in their possession, but their ToS clearly states no refunds. They'd have nothing to lose by banning cheaters.

More often than not, it's the accusers making false accusations of cheating or "hacking" and thinking they're providing 100% concrete proof when all they've really submitted is a long video containing only a few frames of someone doing something suspicious.

RG has already stated they take cheating, aka "hacking", seriously. I see no reason to even question whether they wouldn't.

yeah they had it in their TOS but when my game crashed on me and i bought multiple boosts that i did not wanted they refuned me the MC (i even asked them to retract any xp i might earn untill the refund-they did not) but they said 'here take the money and try not to crash it again because we dont do refunds'

...

this just proves how much they cared about any ToS or how consequent they were. not to mention the attitude "dont do it again cuz we wont help again"? ummm sorry but this is your frickin game that fudged me over because you cant fix it.

 

as for hacking and stuff, im not usually the person that would accuse of hacking without thinking it over. while playing hacking i heared numerous accusations about other players (well known good players) as well as myself (yeah that happened too, even funnier because i wasnt that good)

so when i say i had hard evidence of hacking i really mean it:)

 

abusing map glitches is also hacking for me. some people say "hey it's a feature of the map that i know of", NO this is not mario kart rainbow circuit where you can cut thru a curve to get advantage. this is people standing on skybox being immortal and shooting everyone from above for the whole frickin match:) it all depends how much you abuse and to what extent



#16
XPloyt

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They need to bring back the ticket system, which I'm sure they will in good time.

 

Forget all the hypothetical stuff. Let's be glad the game is actually being supported. It's way too early to be thinking so negatively about a game that many believed to be was disappearing. 



#17
nepacaka

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We know that RELOADED GAMES is now in charge of hawken. and they are most famous with APB RELOADED.

 

AND that game is infamous with hacking and pay2win accusations.

 

you are talking as if the players themselves can choose a new developers for hawken.

"Oh i don't want current developers, give me a Ubisoft please!"

lol. Even If they turn hawken in p2w, we can't do nothing with this. Because we don't have a choice.


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#18
Mergaz

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A game will only turn P2W when he does not have enough players to keep the pure F2P. If not do a P2W will have to make a F2P to attract the maximum possible players. Simple.


Edited by Mergaz, 02 April 2015 - 03:16 AM.


#19
BaronSaturday

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Number one, as someone who has nearly 1k hours in APB, I can tell you two things. Some of the highest level players still use the STAR/Obeya/frags. These are what you start with. I use the NFAS/Obeya/Percs or NFAS/Colby RSA/Percs. The most common side arm I see in high level play is the Obeya with either an NTEC/Percs or SHAW/Percs. Typewriters being very close. There is a solid mix in high level play. The other thing is the serious aimbot problem.

In Hawken, at least in my MMR range, I see a lot of scouts, incins, zerkers, and raiders. I think that people who don't understand how things are balanced and why they are balanced that way feel things are P2W. Things have to be balanced at the highest level of play or the people that have pumped money and time into the game will leave. When you do that, however, things get meszy at low to mid level play. Another thing is that people who cannot compete at mid-high level play in a f2p game always claim it's p2w. No one says starcraft is unbalanced and it is, but you start with everything so it's hard to point fingers. Neither APB or Hawken is p2w.
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#20
Pap

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you are talking as if the players themselves can choose a new developers for hawken.

"Oh i don't want current developers, give me a Ubisoft please!"

lol. Even If they turn hawken in p2w, we can't do nothing with this. Because we don't have a choice.

im not sayin we are. the purpose of this topic was to raise a discusion just for pure fun of discussing opinions:)

 

The other thing is the serious aimbot problem.

yeah i heard this is now the biggest issue haxors

 

 

In Hawken, at least in my MMR range, I see a lot of scouts, incins, zerkers, and raiders. I think that people who don't understand how things are balanced and why they are balanced that way feel things are P2W. Things have to be balanced at the highest level of play or the people that have pumped money and time into the game will leave. When you do that, however, things get meszy at low to mid level play. Another thing is that people who cannot compete at mid-high level play in a f2p game always claim it's p2w. No one says starcraft is unbalanced and it is, but you start with everything so it's hard to point fingers. Neither APB or Hawken is p2w.

i never said that Hawken is now P2W, i dont think so. it was just a question what would people think and do if it changed to a p2w. once again i say: of course you can buy stuff with ingame currency, but for me p2w can occur event then. when for example buying with real money is fast and easy and buying with ingame would take insane ammount of time (to be any competetive).

 

games can be disguised with various microtransactions but it all depends on the implemntation



#21
nokari

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i never said that Hawken is now P2W, i dont think so. it was just a question what would people think and do if it changed to a p2w. once again i say: of course you can buy stuff with ingame currency, but for me p2w can occur event then. when for example buying with real money is fast and easy and buying with ingame would take insane ammount of time (to be any competetive).

 

That doesn't make a game P2W. Again, and we've all stressed this HUNDREDS of times. There's paying to win, which is paying for things you CAN'T get for free that provide the player with an otherwise unattainable advantage, and then there's paying to not grind as long and still having equal access to every possible advantage.

Secondly, your comment that people can't be as competitive without buying something, either with HC or MC, is false. Anyone that has ever created a smurf can attest to that... 


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#22
talon70

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...

The problem was meteor/adhesive for whom 'a hacking player is still a player that might pay real money ingame' so usually they did nothing, even though HARD evidence was presented to them (people abusing map glitches, stream recordings and stuff)....

I seem to remember they, ADH, announced they banned 150 players for cheating. (Is that when the spam exploded? hmm) There was a specific place to send videos for review ect. To imply the previous devs did not care about cheaters is totally wrong imo.

 

I get the feeling some have issues with APB and want to drag it over here.



#23
BaronSaturday

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im not sayin we are. the purpose of this topic was to raise a discusion just for pure fun of discussing opinions:)

yeah i heard this is now the biggest issue haxors


i never said that Hawken is now P2W, i dont think so. it was just a question what would people think and do if it changed to a p2w. once again i say: of course you can buy stuff with ingame currency, but for me p2w can occur event then. when for example buying with real money is fast and easy and buying with ingame would take insane ammount of time (to be any competetive).

games can be disguised with various microtransactions but it all depends on the implemntation


I get what you're saying. The perception of P2W comes from not understanding the balance and seeing that one can buy hard to use, typically high damage weapons with money. The NFAS in APB for example. My favorite weapon. It's an automatic shotgun. It fires 8 rounds with no mods in about 3.5 seconds. However, the spread is so great that if you're not kissing your enemy, the TTK can take greater than 3.5 seconds. But if you're good with it, time your shots, and move your ass, it's very powerful. It also sounds terrifying. When you hear two people engage and an NFAS is involde, it's boom boom boom... Boom boom, grenade explosion, boom. It sounds scary, it CAN be dangerous, and it's an automatic shotgun. You can pay real money to get it. But I ask you to get in game and use it. Then tell me it's OP. It's all about the perception of the gun in the right players hand.

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#24
AsianJoyKiller

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I get what you're saying. The perception of P2W comes from not understanding the balance and seeing that one can buy hard to use, typically high damage weapons with money. The NFAS in APB for example. My favorite weapon. It's an automatic shotgun. It fires 8 rounds with no mods in about 3.5 seconds. However, the spread is so great that if you're not kissing your enemy, the TTK can take greater than 3.5 seconds. But if you're good with it, time your shots, and move your ass, it's very powerful. It also sounds terrifying. When you hear two people engage and an NFAS is involde, it's boom boom boom... Boom boom, grenade explosion, boom. It sounds scary, it CAN be dangerous, and it's an automatic shotgun. You can pay real money to get it. But I ask you to get in game and use it. Then tell me it's OP. It's all about the perception of the gun in the right players hand.

APB never struck me as overly P2W. It did seem a bit overly monetized in regards to gameplay elements. Very expensive and nickle-and-dime-y for circumventing significant time investments, but not really outright "You need to pay else you cannot get this advantage".

I overall enjoyed the game, and only left because of the obvious and rampant cheating that was going on. Not very fun when you run into a aimbotter every few hours.






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