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#1
BaronSaturday

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This isn't what you think. This is simply a different view point.

Here's a short history lesson about the best mohawk in HAWKEN. (That's me.)

I've been gaming since I was 3. So for 23 years.
I've been a min/maxer in WoW in both PVE and PVP.
I've managed and been a part of clans, corps, and guilds that were competitive.
I've sunk almost 1k hours into APB in a very successful clan on Joker NA East. (We didn't put WASP hunter on our vehicles because it was cute.)
I'm working very hard to get a foot into the comp scene here.
I have a progressive nervous system disorder.

I see people complain about the Orb Lord build. I get it. It's like having a stationary green beam in your pocket. All min/maxers use it. There isn't a comp team that doesn't use it.

I don't think it should be nerfed. *ducks arial shoe*. Now listen. Is it OP? Yes. But relative to what? Everything else? Mayperhapsbe. But it is strong and I feel that's a good thing. I feel that the problem lies in everything elses weakness. Shields can be pretty strong. Barrier? Meh. Turrets? Not even after the buff. Scanners are banned. They need a change more than a nerf.

So here is what I propose. Change one thing about orbs. How quickly multiple orbs are absorbed. Everything alse stays the same. Make turret play stronger. Up the DPS on the mg turret and rocket turret. Add a hellfire turret that only fires 3 rockets. Increase turret life span. Change how the scanner functions. Make the Scrambler and Scanner cancel eachother out. Improve yhe scrambler so the dots are more realistic. Give holos a visual that makes them appear to fire. Make them look at enemies.

All in all. Rather than nerfing everything into the ground, improve other things. Too many times have I seen things get nerfed causing something else to be too strong and then nerfed and so on and so on.
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#2
CraftyDus

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 the best mohawk in HAWKEN. (That's me.)

 

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#3
IareDave

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Yes, most of the items/internals in this game just aren't competitive. But, that still doesn't reduce the fact that Orbbuild is OP. Even more so, It dumbs down the game further than sustain already has. DMs are basically decided by who orblord cheeses the hardest when you have a room with similarly skilled players who are also running the same build - and if you aren't, well goodluck. 



#4
Grollourdo

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orb lord is said to be op yes XD but then if you orb lord you dont go to the air and air is said to be op and if you air you miss out on another thing! XD

 

 

the point is that if you chose to use a build you will not be using other builds, see what i mean?

 

 

yes i know alot of you say op op op but really now you can do it too, even in your own way of opness XD

 

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my personal opinion i dont really mind orb lord XD i acctually like it, i feel i like the fact that i can fight an orblorder one day or another (exept if hes toxic ... XD)

 

i just have my own play style build that i use to counter it XD and he can counter mine with his play style bulid XD


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#5
BaronSaturday

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Well. It is OP. That's a fact and I don't dispute it. I'm just not certain that the nerf hole is where it should be thrown. With a scanner change, scram buff, and turret buff, we could see counter play made more effective. The only nerf would be multiple orbs. Make it so you can't heal faster than a green beam cause green beam double orb on a c class is monstrous.

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#6
DerMax

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I don't think it's that it is OP that throws people off but rather that it dumbs down the game — a lot. When you know you have another couple of lifes in your pocket, you become reckless, because you're not punished for your mistakes, as you can always flee and use your magical item to fully repair in a couple of seconds. Not only that but you now also don't have to repair if you know you might be chased. Just spit an orb and stand on it around the corner, waiting for your chaser, to unload all your dps on the hapless dude who thought he'd find you in a vulnerable state of repairing. Oh, and by the way, when orblording, you don't have to dodge and boost much; it's now just about who's more accurate. Plus, of course, it greatly facilitates deathballing.

 

This build removes much risk in the game and dumbs down your decision-making.

 

I used to have an MK-2 orb on my infil, but when I realised how OP this item is, I switched to EMP. It felt liberating. Yes, I now average less XP per match, but I also give much more thought to my actions, because should I screw up, that's it. I now repair about double the time per match I used to, and I always have to choose wisely where to repair, to make sure no one finds me there — because repairing now takes lots of time.


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#7
CrimsonKaim

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I would be fine with both, either nerf orblord or buff everything else. Just bring the orbs and the other items at one level.

Or how about that: orbs do not heal in combat. That would solve much of a problem.

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#8
Dr_Freeze001

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The problem, is my opinion, is not that they are OP, but that there is no counter to is. Blockades and Shields can be countered by EMP's. Scanners and Scramblers by the sound they make. Dets by their speed, Turrets by walking on them and their low health, and so on. But how can you counter Orblording?

 

The only way to counter orblording is by, yourself, also orblording. No clever use of an item or weapon. You just need to orblord better than the other guy, use the same OP tactics, and I think therein lies the problem. 

 

So yea, buffing other items might be just a good overall tactic. Maybe buff the turrets and add an item to make them deploy faster (same as the orblord internals) to counter the amount of health regained or make the orbs destructible with an EMP or Flashbang. 

 

 

But is it the repair charges or the internals that are the cause of the problem?

 

 

 

Also, is there anyone of the opinion that orblord is not op?


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#9
BIsmuthZornisse

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I see people complain about the Orb Lord build. I get it. It's like having a stationary green beam in your pocket. All min/maxers use it. There isn't a comp team that doesn't use it.

So here is what I propose. Change one thing about orbs. How quickly multiple orbs are absorbed. Everything alse stays the same. Make turret play stronger. Up the DPS on the mg turret and rocket turret. Add a

hellfire turret that only fires 3 rockets. Increase turret life span. Change how the scanner functions. Make the Scrambler and Scanner cancel eachother out. Improve yhe scrambler so the dots are more realistic. Give holos a visual that makes them appear to fire. Make them look at enemies.

Wouldn't making repair orbs/charges repair you at 10% if you're not in repair mode solve the issue?

Wouldn't the rocket turret be significantly improved if it would detonate as soon as an enemy is within the explosions range (since the turret has the "tow"launcher model)?

I think greatly decreasing the scanners lifespan (to 5 or 10 seconds, as opossed to more than 1 minute) and maybe having each version require an additional slot would combat the scanner problem.

As for holograms, maybe having them actually move around would significantly improve them. But then they need to have a destructible drone in its center (as the source) as a tradeoff?

Also, the ism really needs a buff. The effect should last longer and disable homing functions. Maybe it should be remotely detonatable as well, or would that be too much?

 


I have a lot of ideas and would like some feedback on them:

Suggestions for fixing things:

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Suggestions for new things:

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#10
Bergwein

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Also, the ism really needs a buff.

 

Yup, atm there's no reason whatsoever to not use EMP over ISM.



#11
I2DI

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Wow i remember people were complaining about Scout being OP. Now it's Orb Lord everyone is being pissed off about.

Do you know what connects both of those things? Good players actually being good. The build is not the problem. The problem is that people can not properly fight against it. Than it was people not knowing how to burn Scout on the campfire now the same song i hear is about the Orb Lord. Argh. And since we are talkin about fighting against orblords - did you know tech exists? And yet i remember people saying that there were no defence against it. Those were the good times.

About other items. I'm just tired of them not being drastically changed since the steam release. They were boring and most of them were useless back then and they stay the same now.


Edited by TwoDots (I2DI), 17 May 2015 - 03:40 AM.

I simply cease to believe that something is OP just because it's OP.


#12
Meraple

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Good players actually being good.

Sitting on an orb, not having to dodge is considered being good?

It doesn't require much skill at all - if anything it dumbs down the game quite alot, as Der said.


Edited by (KDR) Meraple, 17 May 2015 - 03:43 AM.


#13
Dr_Freeze001

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Good players actually being good. The build is not the problem. The problem is that people can not properly fight against it. Than it was people not knowing how to burn Scout on the campfire now the same song i hear is about the Orb Lord.

 

Well, that's the problem. It's not about players being good. I can orblord in an incin and go up against most other players, who are way better than me, and win. It's not about being the better player. It's about having orblord or not.

 

You can shoot a scout and kill it, that's skill. You can't shoot someone orblording and kill it before he kills you, that's just straight up having more armor.


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#14
I2DI

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Well i think that all tactics have a weak spot. Even orblording. I saw people dealing with hackers and even dominating them. Orblording is a bottleneck of Hawken balance. It's broken but it doesn't mean it can not be countered. I simply cease to believe that something is OP just because it's OP.

P.S.: i played CoD a LOT. I know what OP is. Believe me. The horror has a face.


Edited by TwoDots (I2DI), 17 May 2015 - 04:01 AM.

I simply cease to believe that something is OP just because it's OP.


#15
Dr_Freeze001

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It's broken but it doesn't mean it can not be countered.

 

How can it be countered tho?

 

 

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Edited by (KDR) Dr_Freeze001, 17 May 2015 - 04:10 AM.

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#16
I2DI

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Teamwork?

Plus you can ignore such person if he\she just sits in one place. The rest of his team will only suffer from this player not being involved in a fight. In the matter of using orblorfing in 1v1 contact - yes it's OP. But you can run away im most situations once you see your opponent using this tactic.

Actually bringing 1v1 contacts in Hawken gameplay model is completely another topic to discuss.

 

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Edited by TwoDots (I2DI), 17 May 2015 - 04:35 AM.

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I simply cease to believe that something is OP just because it's OP.


#17
Dr_Freeze001

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Teamwork?

 

A counter, as to my knowledge, is a tactic you can use to go against, or counteract, another. For example, an enemy puts down a shield, you EMP it. Someone has a scanner, you listen to the sound and find it. In a card game someone plays a card with an effect, you play a card to counteract or negate that effect. Someone puts extra fire damage on their weapon, you put on fire resistant armor.

 

You say that the only option to kill an orblording Axe is getting more people to shoot at him. That just proves how OP orb lording is and that there is no valid counter, hence proving my point. There is no weak spot.


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#18
BaronSaturday

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I think this is why turrets need to be more threatening. See someone Orb lording, drop a turret. The better DPS and longer life means they have to answer it by moving off their orb, killing the turret, or killing you. I suppose the problem would be that everyone would be dropping turrets. Maybe a new item that can suck up the orb at range. An, "if I can't have it, no one can." Item.

No! I got it! Splosives kill orbs. Or you can aim at them and kill them. This wouldn't nerf the item, but it would make orb lording a risk vs reward tactic which we really need more of. Do I drop this orb, stand my ground, and hope that guy doesn't break it, or do I hope I can out run him, drop it and push back in.

Edited by BaronSaturday, 17 May 2015 - 04:47 AM.

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#19
M4st0d0n

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Yeah hard counters items, fine. But playing rock, paper, scissor gets old fast for me. Shield was never balanced right. Interesting mechanic, but spamable, still broken. How did they fixed it? With EMP of course.

 

Well no. Less MOBA in my shooter please. Give orb downisdes. Explosive like he said. Or generating heat, or slowing. Solving item balance with other items is not solving anything.


Edited by M4st0d0n, 17 May 2015 - 05:30 AM.


#20
deidarall

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I do not agree with the idea of power creeping items to fix something out of line.

 

Allow me to make a point, items are already very central and are in my view over used as a crutch, the sheer volume of items that are used in a short amount of time is annoying to me, and overall game breaking. Ord lord just happens to be the best example, but I think the idea of items being over used in general is the view point I will take. As relative to the mechs themselves in engagements they are able  to turn fights at an alarming rate.



#21
JeffMagnum

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Wow i remember people were complaining about Scout being OP. Now it's Orb Lord everyone is being pissed off about.

Do you know what connects both of those things? Good players actually being good. The build is not the problem. The problem is that people can not properly fight against it. Than it was people not knowing how to burn Scout on the campfire now the same song i hear is about the Orb Lord. Argh. And since we are talkin about fighting against orblords - did you know tech exists? And yet i remember people saying that there were no defence against it. Those were the good times.

About other items. I'm just tired of them not being drastically changed since the steam release. They were boring and most of them were useless back then and they stay the same now.

 

Scout actually used to be OP though, and a lot of people who used it often and could play it well called for a Flak nerf because it was just dumb. You're implying that good players don't want an orblord nerf now, but really, they're often the most vocal about it since that build tends to dominate high tiers and reduces a lot of the gameplay to an orb-sucking DPS race. 


Edited by JeffMagnum, 17 May 2015 - 06:42 AM.

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#22
HorseHeadProphet

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I like the the idea of making the orb explosive to make lording risky, and tame the multiple orb heal rate a bit. Turrets could use a bit of a small buff.


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#23
TBoneBeefSteak

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in addition to a "orb-counter" characteristic/wep/item whatever, this would back off a lot of the hate:

with or without the internals, limit the intake value to the equivalent of ONE orb at a time.

nothing more infuriating than for you and a surviving teammate in a successful push to be tearing down a Brawler, the last remaining "victim", he kills the teammate, jumps inbetween two corpse orbs, throws down another orb and in seconds you are now confronting a full 800hp. that's bullsprinkles.

instead of taking a simultaneous bath in healz, have the healing rate restricted to  a max sequential 'suck' of one orb at a time.

problem solved.

 

and i just noticed most of my mechs are Orb-its  :P


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#24
Sp3ctrr

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Maybe...

 

Orbs could act as predator mines. But only detonating if directly stepped on. People couldn't just dodge over them in a fight and it would making orblording a generally riskier business.


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#25
Panzermanathod

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I don't have much time so I'll just say this for now...

 

 

Why would you have explosive healing items? Destroying the is one thing but for them to deal damage? Also, a part of me things that, if they can be destroyed, you'll have people shooting them. And in turn might make people hide and heal more.

 

But never mind that, why would you have explosive healing items? Orblording is a combination of several things. Making health orbs explosive is just silly. Is doing anything with the internals or, as OP said, alter how the energy is absorbed not an option?

 

Edit: I have a bit more time than I thought.

 

 

 Blockades and Shields can be countered by EMP's. Scanners and Scramblers by the sound they make. Dets by their speed, Turrets by walking on them and their low health, and so on. But how can you counter Orblording?

 

As stated before, Orblording isn't an item to be countered. It's countering multiple internals and possibly a health orb item. It's countering an item vs countering synergy.


Edited by Panzermanathod, 17 May 2015 - 09:36 AM.


#26
DerMax

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Calm your tits everyone. The first thing that is going to be changed will probably be the internals, as we already have seen a new one in the Sharpshooter Bundle. After that's done, the orblording thing will probably dissolve.



#27
Dr_Freeze001

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Edit: I have a bit more time than I thought.

 

 

As stated before, Orblording isn't an item to be countered. It's countering multiple internals and possibly a health orb item. It's countering an item vs countering synergy.

 

 

 

But is it the repair charges or the internals that are the cause of the problem?

 

 

The cause for the OP-ness is that there are no downsides. Everything else, other internals, cost space, and therefore you need to make choices. You've only got so many spots to fill. Repair charge MK-III take 4 item spots, but who needs any other choice when you're orblording? You're gonna win anyway, why bother choosing anything else? Picking the meta, the strongest combo, isn't sacrificing anything. Choosing something else, in high-tier gameplay, is simply not an option to be considered if you want to be individually competitive.

 

No other combination of internals and items gives you the power that orblording does.

 

I dunno, seems like buffing the turrets or having some item that temporarily disables internals (like EMP disables use of items) would be best. EDIT: Or changing the way the internals work, I dunno. So many options.

 

Redox-03 turret anyone? 

 

 

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Edited by (KDR) Dr_Freeze001, 17 May 2015 - 10:08 AM.

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#28
Panzermanathod

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I don't orb lord. Not because it's OP but because why would I use that on a regular basis over other combinations? The closest I did to orb lording was my bruiser but even then it wasn't an efficient build because I wanted other stuff on there.

 

I brought this up before but some want combat efficiency (like those who heavily orb lord) and some want at least some variety (people who don't have most mechs with an orblord setup






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