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The #1 problem with Hawken, and how to fix it.

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#1
GreyFa1con

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Hey Folks, 

More grumbling about auto-balance. Now with 100% more pictures!

 

Way I see it, should take a single engineer 3 days or less to code.

Especially since this is all server-side stuff, which they've mentioned is relatively easy to change without patching.

 

Here goes:

 

Y9BSd2W.png

 

 

 

_


Edited by GreyFalcon, 28 December 2015 - 05:08 PM.

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#2
ATX22

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And while many vocal people here cry that teams could be smaller, IMHO, in addition to the mid-match MM / balancing issues, having these tiny 6 vs 6 teams only makes things worse.  How much a given player can contribute, or can't, is magnified compared to larger teams all while new players are going up against or fighting along side people who've gotten REALLY good at Hawken, and yes, throw in the brain-dead team balancing and things go VERY bad very quickly.. 



#3
Amidatelion

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First problem, before even getting into the coding (which, thought it could maybe take about 3 days, is not as easy as you make it seem - this is introducing new code, not playing with existing values, which is what has been going on):

 

High-MMR player gets put on team with more people - team with fewer people suffers a ragequit because they foresee a stomp incoming. Stomp then comes all over them because self-fulfilling prophecy. 

 

Honestly, the idea could probably have worked months and months ago. But the rate at which people bail in the middle of games for the slightest loss of position now is going to exacerbate any attempts at fixing the MM code.

 

Ditching it entirely in favour of beginner servers vs open is probably for the best with population this low.


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#4
Silverfire

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imo, mid game leavers cause more of an imbalance.  Yes, midmatch joining perhaps should be tweaked, but Amid has a valid point.  Mid match leavers cause a lot of imbalance problems too.  I used to be of the opinion that you should not punish leavers, but quite honestly, a small time penalty could be incurred.  Or something at least.  While we should be encouraging staying in servers for consecutive matches, we need to let leavers know that there isn't no penalty for leaving and joining another match, just to win.  

 

And people need to suck up their fuzzy bunny and accept a loss for what it is.  No more leaving and being a lil fuzzy bunny because you can't take a loss.  Grow up Internet.


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#5
ticklemyiguana

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Or, or, disincentivize quitting.

 

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Edited by ticklemyiguana, 28 December 2015 - 06:41 PM.

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#6
Aregon

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And people need to suck up their fuzzy bunny and accept a loss for what it is.  No more leaving and being a lil fuzzy bunny because you can't take a loss.  Grow up Internet.

 

 

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#7
cloakdood

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They could give out rather large HC (or a few MC) bonuses to those that routinely finish their games, like what Bungie did with Halo: Reach. 



#8
Pumapaw

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Your absolutely right the losing team should just sit there and get raped.


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#9
crockrocket

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I still think the optimal solution here is to give people a reason to stick around in the same lobby for consecutive matches.


Edited by (TDM)crockrocket, 28 December 2015 - 07:40 PM.

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#10
LRod

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When it comes to pub matches, I will consistently bail on a crappy match, not because I'm taking a beating, but because there are clear signs of either individuals (or organized groups of individuals) taking advantage of an imbalanced server, or an obvious hacker/griefer is in play.  I've played enough hours to know that taking a beating can sometimes yield a huge improvement on my ability to learn new techniques or play styles -  kudos to all the heavy hitters that gave me those scars and forced me to be a better player.  But, by the flip-side of that same token, I also know that there are folks that aren't there to improve either the balance of the match or the game play of new players; they are there either to work on their group-play, or just want to play as hard/well as they can.  Fine.  It's a F2P game and we are all entitled to enjoy this game however we individually care to, but as for me: I care less about my MMR (or K/D ratio) than I do about the spirit and intent of the competition...because of that; I will choose every single time to not be a part of that server - winning or loosing team - and will instead dump the server and find another one that also suits my notion of what a fair match looks like. 

 

I applaud any and all input the community has on improving the system, and hope that the developers do take into consideration our collective experiences, but until something is implemented that forces 'fair play' for everyone, there will continue to be individuals (like myself) that opt not to encourage stomping or overly aggressive behavior in obviously unbalanced matches.  Vets can always choose to switch to less played mechs in their garage, buff the internals/items of their favorite mech, or focus on developing a newbie's play style, but the truth of the matter is that they don't have to if that's not what they want...we just have to choose for ourselves if we want to hang around for the inevitable bloodletting.


Edited by LRod, 28 December 2015 - 08:55 PM.

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#11
GreyFa1con

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First problem, before even getting into the coding (which, thought it could maybe take about 3 days, is not as easy as you make it seem - this is introducing new code, not playing with existing values, which is what has been going on):

 

It's still all serverside and pretty simple to code.  Especially considering they said they finally hired on a gameplay programmer.

 

 

High-MMR player gets put on team with more people - team with fewer people suffers a ragequit because they foresee a stomp incoming. 

 

imo, mid game leavers cause more of an imbalance.  

 

When it comes to pub matches, I will consistently bail on a crappy match, 

 

Well then, how about a solution for midgame drops by HighMMR players:

 

Ay3B6au.png


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#12
jjm1

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When it comes to pub matches, I will consistently bail on a crappy match, not because I'm taking a beating, but because there are clear signs of either individuals (or organized groups of individuals) taking advantage of an imbalanced server, or an obvious hacker/griefer is in play.  I've played enough hours to know that taking a beating can sometimes yield a huge improvement on my ability to learn new techniques or play styles -  kudos to all the heavy hitters that gave me those scars and forced me to be a better player.  But, by the flip-side of that same token, I also know that there are folks that aren't there to improve either the balance of the match or the game play of new players; they are there either to work on their group-play, or just want to play as hard/well as they can.  Fine.  It's a F2P game and we are all entitled to enjoy this game however we individually care to, but as for me: I care less about my MMR (or K/D ratio) than I do about the spirit and intent of the competition...because of that; I will choose every single time to not be a part of that server - winning or loosing team - and will instead dump the server and find another one that also suits my notion of what a fair match looks like. 

 

I applaud any and all input the community has on improving the system, and hope that the developers do take into consideration our collective experiences, but until something is implemented that forces 'fair play' for everyone, there will continue to be individuals (like myself) that opt not to encourage stomping or overly aggressive behavior in obviously unbalanced matches.  Vets can always choose to switch to less played mechs in their garage, buff the internals/items of their favorite mech, or focus on developing a newbie's play style, but the truth of the matter is that they don't have to if that's not what they want...we just have to choose for ourselves if we want to hang around for the inevitable bloodletting.

 

I agree with you. I've been in plenty of matches where my team has been smashed but it was fair. But lately I've seen a lot of mature players that don't care about a fair enjoyable fight, they usually have massive ping advantages and pick the Raider and It doesn't seem to bother them that no one else is having fun by the time the score hits 5-30.

 

Kudos to their skill and server proximity, but at some point you need to challenge yourself.


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#13
Sam123456

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GreyFalcon is talking good talk here.

 

Another thought: back in my day, the end of the match showed a winner's pedestal with the top three performing mechs, regardless of team. In another FPSs I play, the end game info shows the scores for all players, starting with the top player. When I'm playing that game, I am completely willing to switch teams to balance a match, since I know I'll still get my due honors at game end, even if I switch to a badly losing team at the last minute. Perhaps more top players in Hawken would be willing to switch if they still got a nod at the end of the match in the form of better representation on the final scorecard. Sure it's just a vanity item, but this might change attitudes.

 

Another thing that some games do: if the matchup is completely imbalanced halfway through, just shuffle the teams around and set the match score back to zero. Keep the timer where it is and have a nice, balanced, six minute game.



#14
Hyginos

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We can't even make good matches with a number that has like 30 digits of precision. You think classifying on a binary will work better?

 

I guess it bears repeating: creating an algorithm that perfectly balances teams by MMR is something that someone with a week of python can crank out in a few hours, but it has to assume that the team balance and accuracy of MMR and is not actively destroyed by players. So how do you get them to stop breaking it?

 

 

I still think the optimal solution here is to give people a reason to stick around in the same lobby for consecutive matches.

 

This is the correct answer.


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#15
CrimsonKaim

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No force switch, thanks. Instant leave when I get force switched, especially when I previously scored like 15 kills and then they do not carried over. 

 

Also, this model only supports a low player base and will not work with high player bases as then a more accurace balancing is needed due to lower MMR differences.

 

The only reason why we have low and high MMR players in one room is because Hawken has failed until now and only around 300 players play it.

 

 

 

However, I'd be happy if we wouldn't have low MMR players in high MMR rooms at all. No, I will not carry a team that has an approximate average KDR of smaller than 1.0


Edited by FakeName, 29 December 2015 - 03:24 AM.

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#16
ticklemyiguana

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 >1.0


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#17
GreyFa1con

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I guess it bears repeating: creating an algorithm that perfectly balances teams by MMR is something that someone with a week of python can crank out in a few hours, but it has to assume that the team balance and accuracy of MMR and is not actively destroyed by players. So how do you get them to stop breaking it?


Well, if you mean Smurfs. Then just stack on crazy amounts of MMR if an account with short playtime is stomping people.

As for the rest,
If both teams are equally skilled, but one is using teamwork, and they other is not.
And the first team wins because of that.
That's a feature, not a bug.

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#18
MomOw

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My humble ideas, I dunno if quick and dirty modifications can be made.
 

About the balance, I don't know if something really efficient can be done at low cost.

 

Maybe, (just maybe) :

- 2 types of servers, Free for all and MMR restricted. MMR categories could be below 1600, between 1600 and 2k, between 2K and 2.4K, Above 2.4K

only FFA should be selectable manually, and the MM (with random search) should first search for a match in the appropriate category then ask if you want to go to a FFA server.

 - no mid-game joining that lead to uneven teams

-> the purpose is to limit unbalance by reducing MMR standard variation and avoiding uneven teams.

 

- score condition for winning : TDM after 5min if score difference is > 15 ends the match, and same sort of stuff for Siege.

-> limit the duration of the stomp to make them less painfull and ragequit

 

- remove underdog bonus to scores, and drastically increase the MMR variation for account that played less than 10h (dunno what level it correspond to)

- add e-mail verification

-> limit smurfs

 

 

 

Also ashfire wanted to do awesome stuff, but sadly he never had the time to do it

 

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#19
CrimsonKaim

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 >1.0

 

 

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#20
Hyginos

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Well, if you mean Smurfs. Then just stack on crazy amounts of MMR if an account with short playtime is stomping people.

 

They already kinda do, but it will be fairly easy to hit a target MMR regardless of how aggressively the system pushes up a new player who does well, and trivial to make a new account.

 

I was more referring to the fact that it is just about impossible to finish a whole match without a quit/join right now.


Edited by Hyginos, 29 December 2015 - 05:32 AM.

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#21
StubbornPuppet

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One thing I see that is possibly flawed about Falcon's charts is, "where do you draw this line between 'high' mmr and 'low' mmr players?"  It's just too binary.  Most players are 'average' mmr.  And two average mmr players may or may not be as good together as that one high mmr player - depending on how compatible their play-style is as a team.

 

I got tired of saying this over the course of '14-'15, but since it's been brought up again, here I go:

 

There are two (maybe three), more elegant ways of preventing the imbalance which is primarily caused by starting matches without a full and even complement of players and quitters.

 

1. Only allow matches to start if the server has a full complement of players.  If a certain time passes and not enough players have joined, introduce a vote to even the teams and close join-in-progress once the teams are even.  So, if there are only 6 players in a lobby and the time elapses, they can vote to go ahead and start with just six players and then no join-in-progress is allowed until the match ends.  Players who want to join that server from the server list can check "OK, I'll wait until the next match." or look for something else.

 

2. Provide a multiplier bonus to players who stick with a server for multiple matches.  The more consecutive matches you play in the same server, the bigger your bonus when you leave.  Sure, you'd eventually need a cap on that, but you get the idea.  And it has to be something worth sticking around for too - as right now, most long-term players have all the XP and HC they could ever care about.

 

*3.  Rage-quit time-out penalty.  This is the 'maybe' thing.  I know it's not popular and comes with some drawbacks.  However, with the same controversy, Rocket League implemented a rage-quit timeout penalty several months ago and, despite a massive initial uproar from the angry mob... it is now highly praised by most everyone.  In Rocket League, If you leave a match in progress, you can't join another for 15 minutes.  And, you know what, since they implemented that, rage-quitting has almost vanished.  The number of reported 'disconnects' has gone up, but the developers have been able to show that the vast majority of people complaining that they were disconnected from the server are blatantly lying.  It has been a huge success.

 

The only still existing complaint about this new penalty in Rocket League, which is still about 'don't penalize me for getting disconnected', will be addressed in an update next week.  They are instituting a "rejoin the match you were 'disconnected' from" option.  So, if your game client has closed and/or a visible interruption of your connection to the servers is seen, when you get back to the main game menu, you will be asked if you would like to rejoin the exact same match you left.  If you accept, no time-out or points penalty.  If you refuse, you have to wait for the time-out to expire.

 

Now, I am well aware that Hawken is a unique game and what works for one doesn't always work for another.  But I thought those two clever little adjustments to the time-out for quitters really helped alleviate the majority of the pitfalls.


Edited by StubbornPuppet, 29 December 2015 - 12:51 PM.

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#22
crockrocket

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Not to beat a dead horse here, but since it's relevant: My Idea to Promote Player Retention Within Individual Lobbies

 

 

I would only support punishing mid-match leavers with a cool-down, and even then just the worst offenders. I tend to believe in positive reinforcement more than negative. As far as mid-match balancing goes, I'm not sure what the right answer is, short of increased playerbase and better retention between matches.


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#23
ticklemyiguana

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Not to beat a dead horse here, but since it's relevant: My Idea to Promote Player Retention Within Individual Lobbies

 

 

I would only support punishing mid-match leavers with a cool-down, and even then just the worst offenders. I tend to believe in positive reinforcement more than negative. As far as mid-match balancing goes, I'm not sure what the right answer is, short of increased playerbase and better retention between matches.

It's honestly very rare for a suggestion of that kind to get so much positive feedback. It may be a thing for Reloaded to consider very seriously.

Post from that thread:

I like this idea, and would encourage its implementation as a weighted probability of occurrence, with more weight added the more games one is in the server.

 

I'd also like to see the pieces increase in value the longer you hold on to them. Perhaps in the far future, the pieces could be assembled into a model, and sold back for a much greater amount of HC, (or for a special camo) than if they were sold immediately.

 

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#24
nepacaka

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it is not #1 problem


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#25
GreyFa1con

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One thing I see that is possibly flawed about Falcon's charts is, "where do you draw this line between 'high' mmr and 'low' mmr players?" It's just too binary. Most players are 'average' mmr. And two average mmr players may or may not be as good together as that one high mmr player - depending on how compatible their play-style is as a team.

Well, you are correct.

Mainly I'm demoing the mechanism of dynamic team assignment, and offering F8 switching to only a portion of one team.

For the more complex stuff, I figure they can repurpose a lot of the code used in their pre-game autobalancer. Which seems to work pretty well.

So for instance, they could identify if a HighMMR player joining, would unbalance things significantly.

Or if a player drops, what subset of the large team would be best to swap into the small team.

Overall, they already got a chunk of code that can compare, say 4 different team setups, and pick which one is the most ideal.

Edited by GreyFalcon, 29 December 2015 - 12:37 PM.

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#26
StubbornPuppet

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^Indeed!  The pre-match-start autobalancer works well.

The problem I see with using it mid-match is that, well... it pisses people off a lot when they get team switched.  Especially so if they get switched to the losing team.  And if it happens multiple times in the same match...  yeesh!


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#27
GreyFa1con

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^Indeed!  The pre-match-start autobalancer works well.

The problem I see with using it mid-match is that, well... it pisses people off a lot when they get team switched.  Especially so if they get switched to the losing team.  And if it happens multiple times in the same match...  yeesh!

And thats why you use the pre-game-balancer code to pick the 3 most ideal switches, and then ask them via F8 if they want to switch.

Granted you will force a switch if one of them dies, or a time-out timer happens.

 

But for the most part, it's players intentionally choosing to be switched.

Also it only happens to 1 player at a time.

 

Meanwhile EVERYONE gets to enjoy a fun balanced game.  Rather than both sides suffering through a boring landslide, that's a waste of everyone's time.


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#28
StubbornPuppet

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^Indeed!  The pre-match-start autobalancer works well.

The problem I see with using it mid-match is that, well... it pisses people off a lot when they get team switched.  Especially so if they get switched to the losing team.  And if it happens multiple times in the same match...  yeesh!

 

 

And thats why you use the pre-game-balancer code to pick the 3 most ideal switches, and then ask them via F8 if they want to switch.

Granted you will force a switch if one of them dies, or a time-out timer happens.

 

But for the most part, it's players intentionally choosing to be switched.

Also it only happens to 1 player at a time.

 

Meanwhile EVERYONE gets to enjoy a fun balanced game.  Rather than both sides suffering through a boring landslide, that's a waste of everyone's time.

Excellent point.  It IS always more important to observe the needs of the many over the needs of the few.  So, if one guy gets butthurt about needing to be force switched, so be it.


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#29
ticklemyiguana

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Your falcon is clearly white. This whole thread is misleading.


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#30
TheSugarDaddy

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The Number 1 Problem is: Smurfs. 

Auto-Balance is not like Babaji with magical powers that can identify who is actually behind low MMR/ newly registered account. 

For Skilled players, a Mech without items/ internals is more than enough.

 

After a while using your new account; Once you reach that certain MMR level, when Auto-Balance finally decides to put you in a Weak Team, you again make a new account. 



#31
Silverfire

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Or, or, disincentivize quitting.

Edit: oh silver. Please buy some socks. On me.


I did buy socks, actually. Five lovely pairs.
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#32
Nept

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I think this is a decent idea.



#33
Luaq

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I still think the optimal solution here is to give people a reason to stick around in the same lobby for consecutive matches.

^what that person said.

A XP and HC boost small reward/boost? idk but give those quitters some candy.



#34
GreyFa1con

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^what that person said.

A XP and HC boost small reward/boost? idk but give those quitters some candy.

XP and HC don't really inventivize long-term players though.

Which is the majority of the competent players.

Only thing that could possibly inventivize worth is a few extra points of MMR. Or MMR loss immunity.

Edited by GreyFalcon, 30 December 2015 - 12:58 AM.

TRIBES: Developed a server mod with 40 servers, 20 clans, and competitive league play.

PLANETSIDE: Got about 30 suggested changes implemented, and 40,000 game downloads via a 1Mb mini-installer I developed.

http://hawken.heroku...user/GreyFa1con

 


#35
ATX22

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XP and HC don't really inventivize long-term players though.

Which is the majority of the competent players.

Only thing that could possibly inventivize worth is a few extra points of MMR. Or MMR loss immunity.

 

Do you mean already long-term players that have banked up a lot of credits / no need for XP / can pub stomp and rack up both easily or potential long-term players?  There's currently nothing new that long term players need to save credits/XP for (and for some time now) thanks to how ADH/meteor handled things, and since Reloaded is still working on Update1.  Hawken needs some good old end-game style credit sinks to make XP/HC worth something again to anyone not completely new to the game.


Edited by ATX22, 30 December 2015 - 04:36 AM.


#36
Pleasure_Mortar

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Or we could just play the game for games sake…

Like in the good old days where the only way of self validation was to improve your own skill.


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#37
Superkamikazee

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it is not #1 problem


Seriously, it's also pointless tweaking match making now anyways. There's what 200-300 people on at any given time, meaning there's maybe 20 full servers. There's no way the devs can get mm or auto balance to work consistently with such a small player pool to pick from. A game in this condition to have people complaining about auto balance or mm should? Just be happy the servers even exist and the game is still playable.
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No crew


#38
claisolais

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MMR is JUST a number! Even the number actually mean something, the ever-changing number can't reflect even THE SOMETHING in real-time.

 

I would say there are a lot MORE factors need to be considered:

 

  • Personal: K/D(and for example he is using predator, then his predators's k/d will also need to be considered) combine with W/L (some ppl quit a lot for K/D) as well as our beloved MMR (well it's still something). Last but not least: HIS PINGs 

 

  • Match itself: Personal score(The guy might not good at the map, or the game mode, or simply his team not fits with him at all----it happens////////Or, the guy got his all scores by delivering EU and nvr showed up around AA), Overall team score(TDM kills) and both team's score graphics (someone joined late and changes the match tide entirely. The line will dramatically increased without enemy having their line increase accordingly.).

 

 

Auto-balance is a fuzzy bunny. Imagine this: The guy got auto-balanced might just finally having his winning after TEN rounds of loses, his winning was earned. ---And enemy team just started quitting, he got switched with all enemy's remaining noobs. FUN? BALANCED?

 

Noobs need a kindergarten and stay in it. Quitters without a proper reason need to be punished hard.

                                                       

                                                                ----------Wait "it's just a game, everyone could/should have fun."

Fine, how about some "fun" servers? And the kindergarten servers I mentioned? 

 

We don't have enough player-base, and this short-term solution--without considering all the factors, might do nothing but to make it all more complicated.


Edited by claisolais, 30 December 2015 - 06:56 AM.

Ic6j9zJ.png


#39
The_Silencer

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I still think the optimal solution here is to give people a reason to stick around in the same lobby for consecutive matches.

IMHO, if someone is having fun during a match (or more) then is unlikely to have him/her leaving the server for no reason... Unless he/she wants to play some other game mode or well real life pops up and demands any non-game based attention...  add more coherent et cetera(s) here on..

 

However, when pilots leave for no apparent reason then yes.. if some kind of an unconscious pattern is making pilots to leave after one or more games for no real reason and as some sort of a rare personal habit then.. yes; bad thing there.

 

Matchmaking quality is relevant; of course. And it's a must to get it well improved in the near future. No one likes to play 2 or more games in a row with unbalanced teams.. LIttle incentives sound pretty cool to me too.

 

Just my 2 cents. So keep it going.. =)


Edited by The_Silencer, 30 December 2015 - 07:36 AM.

.

The difference between theory and practice is smaller in theory than it is in practice.


#40
StubbornPuppet

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I suppose I should add that the party system should be fixed so that parties can be split onto different teams to help with balance.


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To be serious for a moment this is just a joke

 





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