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Economy and its Effect on the Grind and New Players

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#1
crockrocket

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Okay, so let's do some math. So we're given the Assault to start off, therefore that isn't included here. Now, we have 2 mechs at 3844 HC, 4 at 7689 HC, and 10 mechs at 12,816 HC. So that's a total of 166,604 HC in order to own all the mechs alone.

 

Now, we have to make a couple assumptions, for the sake of calculation. First of all, we will assume that people equip each mech with a 3 slot, a 2 slot, and a 1 slot internal. This makes sense as it is most popular builds follow this template. 3 slot = 1920 HC, 2 slot = 1280 HC, and 1 slot = 640 HC. So 3840 HC per mech, or 61440 HC to outfit every mech. Assault is still not included because it comes outfitted (same for items).

 

Our second assumption is that we want to run three slot items from the top cost tier of items (i.e. repair charges, shield). Obviously this assumption is squishier since people are more likely to use their preference when it comes to items. That gives two items per mech at 5126 per item, or 10252 HC per mech. This means it costs 164,052 to outfit every mech. Note that this costs barely less than what it costs to buy all of the mechs.

.

Now: 166,604 + 61,440 + 164,052 = 392,076 HC to outfit every mech WITH A SINGLE BUILD. Now, more numbers: on my main account (crockrocket) I have 184 hours according to the Hawken client (I believe this only counts hours in matches). According to the career stats, I have earned 261,594 HC. That's 130,482 HC short of fully outfitting every mech. Now, I have spent some MC on internals, items, and mechs, I'll admit it. I also got one of the packages early on in my career (Mercenary maybe?). Even with irl spending, I have a couple mechs that remain incompletely outfitted. For your reference, my pilot score per minute is 178.29. I began playing after the last content patch (G2R) so by my understanding this is an accurate statistic. I feel that I have followed an average new player path, beginning at 1500 mmr, bottoming out at around 1350, and since increasing to my current 1800 - 1900. I provided these personal statistics solely for context as far as my score per min and that statistic's implications on my HC/min earnings.

 

This leads into my next issue. Given my MC spending, I could probably have all of my mechs outfitted with a single build. However, almost no one is going to follow a linear spending pattern, buying only the items and internals they want in their final builds. Especially newer players, who are prone to spend HC on sub-optimal items/internals because better ones are locked. 

 

To summarize: it takes essentially 392,076 HC to own and outfit every mech. After 184 hours in matches, my earned HC is over 130,482 HC shy of this number. This means I have approximately 33.28% of the necessary HC remaining. Assuming same as my overall score per minute, this means I need an additional 61 hours in matches in order to complete a full f2p acquisition. 

 

245 hours for an average player is unacceptable as a grind. I fully believe that this contributes to lower player retention and the p2w misconception. If anyone wants me to go through and do the math in order to figure out how much MC I have spent on non-cosmetic stuff, I can try to do that (no promises). Keep in mind that mileage will vary by user (depending in initial and learned skill).


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#2
Broham78

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It's only a grind if you don't enjoy it. I didn't get any loaded assault when I started. I got a bare bones Fred and loved every minute of it. I think what new players need to remember is that this game is free. As in actually free. Impatient? Support us all by spending some dollars.
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#3
Grollourdo

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Gotta count the secondary and prestige weapons too! XD also most of us have 2assaults these days and a CRT no? 1assault we payed for XD

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#4
GGGanjaMan

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Your score/min is inconsequential to your HC gains in the game. It's determined simply by time spent in the game, as well as any bonuses (daily win, team switcher, & actually winning). To maximize your HC grinding, you would ideally want to win 1 of every game mode daily to get those 250 HC bonuses (there are 6 different modes you can get this from daily) - if you spent the same time just grinding 1 mode, it's going to be less effective obviously and thus your overall hours spent in the game don't mean much in terms of maximizing HC gains if that's your goal.

 

Now as for it being a grind, the time it takes to just master 1 mech and be able to use it efficiently will generally net you enough HC to buy and outfit 2-3 more mechs without even having to do the daily win bonuses grind as said above. If you don't want to go through things sequentially by actually learning and mastering the mechs you feel as you should own, then they offer the ability to bypass that process with real money. Frankly, what's the point of having all fully outfitted mechs if you don't know how to play half of them? So really, for people that enjoy learning the game and actually mastering the mechs as they go, it won't seem as a grind.

 

Keep in mind, another problem of making HC gains even easier, will probably also facilitate more smurf accounts. I feel like the cost restrictions currently at least curtails rampant smurfing by a bit, even though of course it still occurs.


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#5
crockrocket

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Now as for it being a grind, the time it takes to just master 1 mech and be able to use it efficiently will generally net you enough HC to buy and outfit 2-3 more mechs without even having to do the daily win bonuses grind as said above. If you don't want to go through things sequentially by actually learning and mastering the mechs you feel as you should own, then they offer the ability to bypass that process with real money. Frankly, what's the point of having all fully outfitted mechs if you don't know how to play half of them? So really, for people that enjoy learning the game and actually mastering the mechs as they go, it won't seem as a grind.

 

That's a very valid point, and one that I hadn't considered while writing this. I guess my question here is how many new players are scared away by what appears to be a very daunting grind? Unfortunately that question is nearly impossible to answer.

 

Additionally, while it does take a significant amount of time to master each mech, it is conceivable that at my 184 hours in matches, I could be passably proficient with every mech (particularly for a player more skilled than I, or a quick learner) While it makes sense for players to learn their mech before they buy another, I feel that 200+ hours is just too much.


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#6
6ixxer

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Make it faster and people will get to the end and have no drive to keep playing.

If you want to get things fast, you pay MC, or you do the slow grind.

This is how Free-to-play games work.

 

Ok, to put my opinion in perspective, I bought Nemesis when early access came to Steam. 9 mechs with internals for dirt cheap.

That was when everyone was having a whinge about paying money to get a free game.

 

Now there are people saying they need camos to spend excess thousands of HC on.

BUY MC. Reloaded are a business and they want a return on their investment.



#7
CrimsonKaim

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I myself hate grinding but still it is kind of good for newbs (including myself)
'Cause if you imstantly unlock every mech, you have nothing to look forward to, additionally, grinding for XP will force the player to get used to the mech unlike me who transferred XP to tue Raider so I can use my lovely EOC :]

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#8
Panzermanathod

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Personally, as I've stated before, I, and probably some others, am not interested in owning every mech. Also, not all my mechs are fully stocked with items, nor will they be.

 

So how much one needs to grind will vary with what some want. Sure, play long enough and you'll probably just get everything, but if you're playing that long then I can be fairly certain you liked the game.

 

Secondly, yeah, it's F2P. If the person feels particularly entitled  and/or wants F2P as well as loads of instant gratification, that's not Hawken's problem. Hawken probably has one of the better F2P models out there and, hey, while I cannot give these guys money right now I'd certainly would support a game I like if I could.



#9
Benwizzle

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Have you played Warframe? That's a grind.



#10
coldform

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Ahh, the grind. I started after the ascension patch came out. I learned to hawken with tuning points, which were earned thru xp. At that time, reaching pilot lvl 30 took four times as much xp as it does today. On the bright aide, my first seven mechs were free - I just had to reach pilot lvl 9. And of course, new player were encouraged to spend as much time in a Fred as possible to really learn the game, so my hc was s backing up pretty good by the time I felt right to use it.

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#11
crockrocket

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I agree that with everyone saying the grind has a purpose and shouldn't be eliminated. I just think that 245 hours is too long. I don't think things should be much cheaper, just a little cheaper. I also think that all of the mechs should cost the same price, but that's a separate issue.


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#12
teeth_03

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I think the main issue is the cost of items and internals and the fact they are locked to each mech.

I say, make them cheaper, give us a universal unlock option or let us swap them between mechs.
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#13
Grollourdo

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I personally think that the expensive thing is weapons... Then god damn 5400 hc weapons..... XD

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#14
Grollourdo

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As for internals, I think they are good XD and items.... Sooooooo irregular.... XD

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#15
Pelanthoris

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I'm not sure if I recall things correctly, but bear with me. I never felt Hawken had grind. I started in the beginning of open beta in dec 2012. Back then I played a lot with fred, like everybody and whined that it was underpowered. Then I got better and started to love my fred, because, well... I could kick some ass with it. I remember how badly I wanted other mechs and how rewarding it was to get my beloved bruiser. I didn't play much then (or now), but then sometime around ascencion levels got revamped and you got free mechs based on level/rank. Then I got something like 7 free mechs in one night (I still haven't played that SS online :teehee: ). I think it ruined everything.

 

What I mean to say is that the "grind" is ok in Hawken, since the starting mech is so powerful. Grind exists to make you a better pilot for the mechs you own. The next mech you get isn't automatically better, it might actually be worse for you.

 

Bad output, but you gotta read my feels.


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#16
BaronSaturday

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I like the grind personally. I intend, at some point, to own every mech with every internal and item. This includes my second Tech. How is this game going to net a return on investment if it doesn't have a grind like this that asks you to come out of pocket or play like it's your religion?

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#17
PoopSlinger

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Surprised no older pilots chimed in with this.  The grind used to be easier.  You used to receive mechs for free every so often.  Not sure if it was during ascension or Steam launch that it was changed.  To me, the grind is a tad too slow now.


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#18
teeth_03

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You would have to play for an extreme amount of time to own every item and internal for *every* mech.

#19
CraftyDus

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On the one hand I never thought Hawken was onerously grindy.

I've leveled a couple accounts to 30 and played a little to do it, so I'm reasonably familiar with how much playing it takes to get the mechs and parts desired.

You didn't even get the last 5 tuning points until you hit level 30 when I began playing, a significant disadvantage.

 

On the other hand I've always thought that retail Hawken would be a far more attractive scenario.

 

Without free to play we'd have all the mechs and all the parts after initial purchase, the ability to have fully player owned and operated servers, a much more accessible competitive community to newer players, and all while still retaining the skins and cosmetics market and eliminating the negative connotations of being f2p or having a grind.


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#20
Flifang

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I introduced many friends to hawken, all of which loved it to death and I'll tell you none of them stayed. They couldn't exactly give me a good reason why, but I know matchmaker was a bit frustrating. The other thing I know is they were often bored of the CRT by the time they had enough to buy a mech around 12k hc and they were disappointed with their mech purchases. If they weren't at all good enough at a certain mech they bought to continue to have fun they would have to start playing the CRT again. At their level of play it's very easy to assume anything is underpowered or overpowered simply because they have no examples of what can be used to counter act something or what a mech is capable of. They need somebody to show them and if they don't see it they aren't much motivated to try something they don't forsee working for them. This is from my friends perspectives. I feel like there should be a way to refund a mech so if somebody isn't happy with their first mech purchase they can try another. The game gets very stale to newer players without the next thing to look forward to and at the beginning not a lot of players will think they need to increase their mmr for instance. Just my experience
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#21
PeanutFox

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This is hard to touch on because it's so subjective.  The best you can do is relate it to time versus dollars, and decide if the time required is too much. 

 

Although the simple solution for avoiding the grind is to buy some of those MCs



#22
Veklim

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Well, I've been playing this long enough now to have built a fair backlog of HC, I only own 10 mechs, and not all of them are overly kitted out. Every now and then I'll fancy a change of pace, I'll look over the mechs I've either not tried, or not given much time to, and I will play with it for a day or two, see if I like the feel of it. Thing is, it's never felt like a grind to me. By the time I felt proficient in the CRT (fully ranked, internals and items tweaked and played with, etc) I had enough to buy two more mechs, which I did. I bought a cupcake and a techninja. Honestly, I barely notice there are other mechs out there these days, I have the ones I enjoy and I play them more often than not. The grind was enough to make me feel I'd achieved something once the mech was kitted the way I wanted it, but never felt endless or overtly longwinded. I've never felt the urge to 'own the world' or any such oddness, I prefer to be the master of few rather than the layman of many.

 

I agree that a universal item / internal unlock feature would be an incredibly good idea, I'm a little confused by the fact that the EMPs I bought for my CRT apparently don't fit in my cupcake.....o_O   I also find myself agreeing with Fliflang though, a refund option would be good to 'sell back' a mech you disliked, and I too have had friends pick up the game, love it, then oddly tail off and away after a month or two. I don't think that's a F2P issue, I don't think it's a grind issue, I think it's merely a love of the game, and I don't mean just enjoying it and marvelling at how much you are given for nothing but a little time (prod, poke *stern look*), I mean actually loving it.


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#23
StubbornPuppet

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Yeah, didn't think the grind was bad at all.  I always felt like I had finally mastered a particular mech right at the point that I'd completely leveled it up.  I'd say it's perfect.


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#24
(KDR) SethUK

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There is no grind, just enjoy the game.


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#25
talon70

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I think right now the 2x and 3x HC and XP bonuses should be given out little more to new players to ease the initial grind as it helps a lot and is easy to do.

 

I feel people like the progression of leveling up and with the HC earned in leveling up a mid priced mech, you can just about buy and outfit another. I think that makes some sense.

 

The economy, HC , should be looked at and adjusted from the new player point of view for player retention imo.

 

edit: The price of the mechs compared to each other make no sense at all. The prices of items to outfit them being so much more than your whole mech is kinda silly too.

 

Edit: Maybe have a stock market type economy where the price of mechs and items would be driven by their demand.


Edited by talon70, 07 May 2015 - 05:08 PM.

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#26
teeth_03

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I would make the mech prices dynamic: Make the more popular mechs more expensive to try to diversify and suggest players buy cheaper, lesser priced mechs.

Either that, or just make all mechs 12k? Why 12 you ask? Because they should lower the prices of items and internals while I would be fine with an increase in mechs prices.

#27
WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW

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I would make the mech prices dynamic: Make the more popular mechs more expensive to try to diversify and suggest players buy cheaper, lesser priced mechs.


AKA "force players into underpowered positions while letting others play the meta"

There was a time when Hawken's HC prices were manageable and produced a grind time shorter than now, but which came from a fountain that slowly emptied, giving players plenty of time to play different mdchs and then settle into a few they liked.

Now, the grind times are insecurity incredibly arbitrary (item prices are all over the place for no good reason, mech pitches are all over the place too).

There one was a time when Hawken's grind depended far more on purely game play time because of reliance on levels to further progression, whereas game credits were largely focused on tuning mechs with fixtures that were as negative as they were positive.

Now, everything is funneled into a common resource, and the cost ratios between mechs, items, and internals are completely arbitrary and senseless.

There is a grind in Hawken. It has contributed to the loss of new players and a disgusting first impression. These are facts.

Personally, I feel that "There is no grind because grind is 'fun'" is a garbage excuse for a garbage method that is as arbitrary as the idiotic pricing ratios that exist in Hawken. I wish people would stop defending this garbage system so that we can all move on to start suggesting things that would make the game better and more attractive to spend money on, instead of letting it wallow as a disgusting, pitiful cash cow that most people don't want to deal with.
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#28
reVelske

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AKA "force players into underpowered positions while letting others play the meta"

 

Define "underpowered", I'd love to know which orifice you pulled that out from.

 

IMHO, The only "grindable" part of the game that can really be called "power" in any meaningful way would be the internals, and guess what, they just happen to be the cheapest stuff you can get with your HC, everything else are just variety, ie. not a necessity for the enjoyment of the game. Admittedly 12k HC for a new mech is definitely quite costly and can be a long wait, but fact remains that it's a F2P game and convenience is at a premium, not an outrageous one at that.


Edited by reVelske, 08 May 2015 - 03:25 AM.


#29
WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW

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Define "underpowered", I'd love to know which orifice you pulled that out from.

By underpowered I mean those mechs that skilled players recognize as being unreliable, gimmicky, and less able to perform compared to other mechs, e.g. Bruiser, Rocketeer, Reaper. Some might even say that the Incinerator is simply a better Grenadier or that the Brawler is the strongest mech on the game. Are you suggesting that Hawken is balanced? It is not.

Edit: You need to be evaluating this from the position of the average player who will put in only some 10-20 hours to try out Hawken at most, not someone who has as much time as you are suggesting they ought to have, particularly because the grind elements have so much gameplay impact.

Edited by WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW, 08 May 2015 - 03:30 AM.

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#30
reVelske

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And you honestly think a more "meta" mech would actually matter all that much in the hands of a newbie? Nevermind that, Assault, who is unquestionable one of the stronger mechs in the game for a VERY long time, has been given out for free couple of times (and now loaded with internals and items to save you a hefty amount of HC!), and let's not forget that the default mech, CR-T, is really not significantly worse than Assault in any way shape or form.

 

I don't consider myself skilled and experienced enough to really be talking about balance in any meaningful way, but from a more casual perspective, yeah, it's balanced. I may swear at Scouts' and Bruisers' mothers simply because it's nigh impossible to accurately slap those midgets with 200ms ping, I may get the god damn rage against a wall of Incinerators when my team cowers in the back, but not once in my Hawken career have I felt like saying HELP HELP I'M BEING REPRESSED at some seemly unsurmountable balancing issue.

 

And I was a average player, I still am to some degree, I have a job, I spend at max 2 hours in the evening on Hawken, if any at all, yet the only money I had to spend on the game were completely for cosmetics.

 

Also, don't forget about the test pilot mechs, which are loaded and accumulates exp, so there ARE variety even if you are new and can't find the HC needed to buy yourself a new and shiny mech.

 

And sure, there always will be players who get scared away by the apparent "grind", such is the nature of F2P games and different people have different levels of tolerance, but from my experience of F2P nonsense over the years, Hawken is really not as bad as you are making it out to be.


Edited by reVelske, 08 May 2015 - 03:47 AM.


#31
WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW

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That's good for you, but the grind is less with a standardized, low price point for horizontal progression, and that is what is going to make for a more attractive game, not what exists now.

Thank you for your time,

 

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#32
BaronSaturday

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Knowing what you signed up for is pretty important. Just saying. This is a f2p game. More specifically it's f2p class based arena shooter. The game needs to make money and thus must be tedious. It won't make monry if you can unlock all of the things in a week. Sorry. You can feel like it's garbage, but that's just a feeling. What's a fact is my point.

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#33
reVelske

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That's good for you, but the grind is less with a standardized, low price point for horizontal progression, and that is what is going to make for a more attractive game, not what exists now.

That is an extremely vague suggestion, let's hear a more detailed one if you really think there's a reasonable way for them to generate consistent income without screwing over non-paying playerbase completely.



#34
crockrocket

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People keep commenting as if I think the grind should be abolished. That's not what I'm suggesting. I think the grind is a little too harsh right now. I think it should be lessened slightly. I recognize its purpose.

 

I did like talon's suggestion of handing out HC boosts more frequently for new players. Honestly, that might be a sufficient solution as far as player retention and the grind. I would also like to see the current arbitrary prices reworked so that they actually make sense (i.e. all mechs the same, items/internals of the same size are the same price).


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#35
reVelske

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I think a slightly more regular 2x HC/XP campaign would suffice.


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#36
Gangland

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I'm new to Hawken. I took advantage of the 2xp weekends, and after 3 weeks of play I'm at pilot level 26. I don't think it was hard, and if I keep playing more I'll prolly be 30 in no time. But,, the 2xp weekends really did help out.

 

Also, Bought the nemesis package to support, and cuz it had the "skull" bodies, which imo are pretty snappy.



#37
hestoned

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I mean are people actually spending real money on weapons or mechs? I would assume most money is being spent on boosters or any cosmetics like camos, mech parts, bobble heads. This would be nice of the devs to share with us so that we could make more informed recommendations for the market.
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#38
mittens800

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I also bought Nemesis back in the day.

 

Grind really sucks on smurf accounts though, showing that new players should be given extra HC on every level unlock.

I think it is hard to put yourself in shoes of new player - vets already know how to play and what to buy.  When you are new it is hard to know... maybe when you reach level 30 get like 50K HC or something?

 

Maybe new accounts should be given 3 mechs, like test drive, one A, B, C so they at least can play different types.

Assault, Brawler, and... infil? (Please not reaper, scout, or zerker, too many reapers on seige already)



#39
talon70

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I also bought Nemesis back in the day.

 

Grind really sucks on smurf accounts though, showing that new players should be given extra HC on every level unlock.

I think it is hard to put yourself in shoes of new player - vets already know how to play and what to buy.  When you are new it is hard to know... maybe when you reach level 30 get like 50K HC or something?

 

Maybe new accounts should be given 3 mechs, like test drive, one A, B, C so they at least can play different types.

Assault, Brawler, and... infil? (Please not reaper, scout, or zerker, too many reapers on seige already)

 

Mittens thinks the smurf grind is too hard. What does a new person think? :yinyang:



#40
BaronSaturday

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I'd say start new players with Assault, Zerker, and Vangaurd as they really represent the median of every class. If that makes sense. Also giving HC rewards for levels is great. Just kind of riffing off of Dave.

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