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PUB stomping rears its ugly head.

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#1
Nov8tr

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Well I thought this had been banned but apparently not. PUB stomping. Either high MMR or (hopefully not but maybe) cheats using mods.  Playing this evening with a great group of guys we played for hours and hours. 10 or 12 matches. Then 2 came in as a party.

I won't name as it is against forum rules. In fact I checked and they are not even listed as members on the forums. It showed in game the one guy supposedly only had 2 HOURS of game time. Uh huh and I'm the Pope. 40-12. 40- 10........I don't think so. I told them PUB stomping had been banned and they said i was stupid and they could do as they pleased. Needless to say with a IQ of 173, calling me stupid does NOT make me happy. They finally left at the end of the second match. And then everything returned to normal. Several people quit during the match and the game added more. Even one guy on their team quit. No one was happy about it. Nice part was I did make 2 more friends. But the "party teaming" really needs worked on. It just does not result in fun. Now in my last match I had a player who healed from zero to full health in 1 second in front of my face twice. We know what he was doing don't we? No tech, no nothing. He just "healed". His health did not go up. It just went from zero to full instantly. I am so sad to see this happen. I do not want a witch hunt. I do not have any video. I can not accuse someone without proof and I don't even name them in game. I realize the devs have their plate full already but this is a issue that needs looked at.

 

It is suppose to match them up with same number in their group and same skill (MMR) level. It does not. I think many here can tell you about their experiences with it happening as well. Including some of the original players. This has gone on for some time and I honestly thought they banned PUB stomping right before I left playing last year. I guess i was wrong. I can only hope not just for my sake but for everyone's sake who plays the game this is fixed. Thanks for listening and I hope you choose to fix it. Thank you!

 

Nov8tr (pronounced innovator) the resident old guy :D


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#2
crockrocket

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Well you know we do have devs again now... So if you think someone's hacking, try and get video evidence and then report to Tiggs and/or CapnJosh.

 

As far as smurfs wrecking in lower level lobbies... Not the coolest move, but also not prohibited officially.


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#3
nokari

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Pub stomping is impossible to "ban" and devs never said it was. A system has no way of telling what your true MMR level is until AFTER collecting data from matches. Secondly, there's no way for the system, or anyone for that matter, to tell apart from a silent/playing dumb pub stomper and a brand new player that's just better than most people. Just because someone owns everyone else in a fairly new account doesn't automatically mean it's a smurf account.

 

Also, for people who want to create a new account in order to legitimately start from scratch, there is no other way to start than down at the bottom.

 

If you see someone you think is cheating in some way, do your best to record it and submit a report on the website. But often people think they see cheating when in fact all that happened was lag. 1 person with a high ping can cause lag spikes for everyone in the match, which occasionally leads to bogus accusations. So with that said, don't get mad if a report is closed with no action or you're asked to provide better evidence.


Edited by nokari, 24 March 2015 - 10:08 PM.

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#4
OdinTheWise

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this is laughable, how on earth could you even ban a pub stomper when its not against the rules


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#5
Nov8tr

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Thanks for the replies. Some helpful, some not. Thank you crockrocket i've had some of my other friends who are old players tell they never did get around to banning PUB stomping. Shame.

 

And RedVan your comment is useless and rude. I am not a liar and don't appreciate being called one. I already stated in my OP that I may have been wrong and now know unfortunetly that I was. That is why I made this post to ask the devs to consider it. I am not the only one who feels this way. Calling someone a liar because you don't agree with them is at minimum low and outright uncalled for.

 

Nokari actually it does have your MMR rating before you do a match as it is used in matchmaking the match in the first place. I appreciate your trying to be helpful and making suggestions. Thanks. I did check his profile in game and the game said he had played a total of 2 hours after he had played with us. I'm 61 so my skill level is not what it use to be but I do OK enough to have fun and be #1 in some matches. I've played since summer of 2012 and have played with a lot of people here and had great fun. Yeah I got my butt handed to me sometimes and thats ok. It's part of the game. But creating accounts for the pure purpose of proving how "tough" you are while stomping lowlevel players is not cool. it's a asshat move. i'm good enough to kill these guys sometimes. I'm not able to carry a whole team. I still try just to help keep some new players from giving up on the game. Without new players there will be no game for anyone to play. And yeah I know about having video for proof of cheating. It was pretty rampart by the time the game hit Steam. Wall hacks, speed hacks, aim bots, etc. It was really sad. By that time the old devs had pretty much bailed. I'm sure you remember what it was like.

 

This is a great, unique game. It is a niche game so it will never have a huge following. So for it to be able to sustain itself it needs new people. They are not going to play long if all they do is get stomped. This is a undeniable fact. How to fix all this? I don't know. I am not a game dev. I leave that up to the people who are game devs. And the ones I've met and friended so far have been very nice people. I do know it currently does not work. It needs fixed.

 

And Odin I am actaully shocked to see you here making fun of me when you are suppose to be my friend. I realize now it was not banned but I honestly did believe they ban it just before I left last year. I was wrong. It should be. They need to fix the matchmaking system. Then there would be no pub stomping. They would not need to ban anyone if it worked. But sadly it does not work all the time. Most of the mistakes occur after the match has already started and is imbalanced or someone leaves and it puts in a player with a MMR over 700 higher than any of the players or even 2 or 3 of them. I've seen this happen. I hope for everyones sake the devs take this into account and can find a way to make it work better. I realize making it perfect may never be able to to done. But it can be made better. That is my hope.  I appreciate help from anyone who can help or give ideas on how to fix it. It will be much appreciated. Thanks.


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#6
nokari

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Not sure why you sent me a PM, but here was my response for people reading:

 

 

I was referring to the fact that a smurf account comes from someone with an ACTUAL skill level that's much higher (1800+) than a fresh account (1250). The system cannot know that their true MMR is much higher until after the person has stomped a bunch of matches and it adjusts according to the data collected after each one over time.
If you had 2000 MMR on one account and you create a brand new one, the new one isn't going to be 2000 MMR also and the change isn't drastic immediately after your first match.
 
I've tested this personally. My actual MMR is 2350 and after playing 10 hours on a brand new alt account I was able to raise my MMR as fast as I could to ~1900. By the 4th or 5th hour, I was still below 1600, which would have still placed me with brand new players. That's about 15 matches in.
 
 
I also want to point out again that each time you run into somebody really good that has only a few hours in the game, that doesn't automatically mean every one of them is a smurf. Many new players are veteran FPS players that have never played Hawken until now. They don't have a high MMR yet, but they will.
Even if they are someone's alt account, there is no other possible way for someone to start over, like just wanting a different username. You can say "shame on you" all you want to these people, but there's nothing that can be done about it other than a social "honor" agreement that can't really be enforced. Until there's a bigger population, there's not much we can do other than put personal restrictions on ourselves.

Edited by nokari, 25 March 2015 - 12:24 AM.

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#7
Houruck

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this is laughable, how on earth could you even ban a pub stomper when its not against the rules

It is not against the rules and it was not banned, he is aware of that now.
But I hope you guys all agree that this is a real issue and it could be addressed as such.

Edited by Houruck, 25 March 2015 - 12:34 AM.

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#8
teeth_03

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The only way I can think of to fix it would be to put players in parties in games with other parties. But even then, they could use the server browser and hope they eventually get on the same team. This would also require a larger playerbase no doubt.

#9
Nov8tr

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Well I'm headed off to bed now just wanted to check before then. Thanks for the replies. @nokari OK i get what you mean now. I see your points and they are valid. Like I said I have no magic answers for the problem. Only ideas. Maybe someone else has a idea that the devs just might be able to better the system even if they can't make it perfect. Thanks for taking the time to reply nokari. It was apprecaited. goodnight all.


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#10
M4st0d0n

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There is a simple way to restrain pubstomp and solve some of the matchmaking problems. You can reset the MMR for everyone. It has been left untouched for years, trough radical meta changes and population shift. Matchmaker being brhawken, it's the only, and paradoxically, useless, endgame resource a veteran player could aspire to harvest, without a proper competitive ranked mode. Resetting it could motivate some of the smurfes to rebuild their old account to their former glory. And hopefully in the process, get a decent rating of their skill.


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#11
Houruck

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But if they reset it there will be even more "high tier" players in pub matches at the beginning.

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#12
M4st0d0n

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Yup, first phase could lead to that, especially with a low demographic. But I'll rather have a high tier vet on his main building his MMR back in a lobby, than a smurfing one talking fuzzy bunny to everyone beacause he's frustrated to be forced to play with low tiers.



#13
RedVan

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I've played with quite a few smurfs, whom I know, and I never see any of them talking fuzzy bunny (unless the other player instigates it and deserves it).  I have no doubt there are some who are bitches on their smurfs, but they're probably the same way on their main as well.

 

And sorry Nov8er, I just found it comical and absurd that someone would make such a claim that pub stomping has been banned.  I've never heard of pub stomping being banned in any game ever.


Edited by RedVan, 25 March 2015 - 06:50 AM.


#14
M4st0d0n

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There's plenty of games with inbuilt mechanics making a main account more valuable than smurfing, and discourages pubstomping. What have we got here in Hawken? Antediluvian accounts reaching critical MMR mass, unfit for matchmaking?

 

Also Redvan. You won the internet. People respecting each other even in the anonimity... Please mate, dont switch ISP. You're blessed.



#15
RedVan

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There's plenty of games with inbuilt mechanics making a main account more valuable than smurfing, and discourages pubstomping. What have we got here in Hawken? Antediluvian accounts reaching critical MMR mass, unfit for matchmaking?

 

Also Redvan. You won the internet. People respecting each other even in the anonimity... Please mate, dont switch ISP. You're blessed.

 

Yes, games like BF where you'd have to buy another copy of the game do hinder smurfing.  But that isn't "banning" smurfing.  And one couldn't even argue smurfing had anything to do with why BF allows 1 account per key.  Even Hawken has an in built mechanic making a main account more valuable than a smurf:  All the unlocks these high MMR players have played long and hard for!



#16
M4st0d0n

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Lol you kinda lost me there Redvan... You know you cant unlock things with MMR, right? Nothing. Not even some hot geeky IRL chick. I've tried. Was slapped in the face. Now I'm bald, and a bit more fat, and I regret the time I spent on this game instead of practicing guitar, or doing push ups.



#17
Nov8tr

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To b e honest it is mostly not the games fault. It is people fault. They need to learn what is right and what is wrong. You put 2 people in a ring, give them gloves they fight to see who is the best. They entered the ring each knowing the others skills. They knew the consequences. We call this boxing. This is acceptable. But is it ok for a grown man to walk into someones yard and begin punching and kicking their 5 yr old child? Of course not. Why? Because it is wrong. This child had no idea of their skill. Was not given a choice. When the highest level people in the game go down to the beginner level and proceed to stomp the people in the game who have the lowest skill. IT IS WRONG. They did not agree to it. They did not know your true skill level. It is not OK. Many of these people will quit the game. This is a fact. It is not fun to get stomped. It is not the same as "losing". Yes it may drive one of you to become better. It will run the other 99 away. Most people do not have the neccessary motor skills to be in the highest tier. This is a fact of nature. Does it make them less of a person? No. Does it make it ok to just stomp them? No. Here is a undeniable fact. There is no disputing it. Look guys the game has already shut down once. The devs already bailed once. The following is truth.

 

If you run off all the new players there will be no one to play with in time. The game will not have the people it needs to sustain itself. IF YOU RUN OFF ALL THE NEW PLAYERS THERE WILL BE NO GAME TO PLAY!! PERIOD.

 

If anything it is the responsibility of the high tier players to police their own. Yes the devs can do some things to help. Tweak certain aspects of the game to discourage stomping. But if you really care about this game, you won't allow others to do it. You won't do it yourself. How to fix the problem of the high tier players not having anyone to play with? I don't know. I don't pretend to. So i ask for YOUR help. Do any of you want the game shut down again? Are any of you trying to get this new batch of devs to abandon the game? I would hope not. I would hope you actually want the same thing as me. For the game to succeed and stay so you can play. I'm not the best player. I don't try to be. I'm too old for that. While I do well, especially for my age, i do not have the motor skills i had before. Neither will you when you get my age. I am here to have fun. Most of the time I do that. My skill level is high enough to challenge those who are new and have reached a level above noob. Those who have reached that mid/high level and want to be better. I honestly try to make the game better for them. I switch mechs all the time even though I have not mastered them all. I own them all but I have a few favorites. I use those when really good players come in. Sure I could run my best mech and stomp all over new players. But I do not find it fun using a 5 year old for a punching bag. It is not right.

 

I did not start this thread to get called names. I did not start it to make trouble. I started it because I want your help on how to fix what is a obvious problem. I hope you will help. Suggest some ideas. Maybe some will be things the devs can use. I hope you want to play Hawken as much as I do. Thank you.


"Nov8tr" is pronounced "INNOVATOR"

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#18
Amidatelion

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For your edification:

https://community.pl...um-on-smurfing/

https://community.pl...how-to-improve/

#19
OdinTheWise

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the problem is not smirfing but the asshats that like to pub stomp. 


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#20
Nov8tr

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Yeah I saw those Amidatelion. Glad to see others trying to do something about it too. I don't by any stretch of the imagination believe I invented this topic. LOL.

I'm just trying to add my two worn out pennies to the pile. I'd agree Odin. It's not so much smurfing as it is people who take pleasure from pub stomping. It's wrong.

They can attempt to justify it anyway they want. But in the end, it's still adults beating up little kids. Not right.


Edited by Nov8tr, 25 March 2015 - 01:58 PM.

"Nov8tr" is pronounced "INNOVATOR"

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#21
RedVan

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Lol you kinda lost me there Redvan... You know you cant unlock things with MMR, right? Nothing. Not even some hot geeky IRL chick. I've tried. Was slapped in the face. Now I'm bald, and a bit more fat, and I regret the time I spent on this game instead of practicing guitar, or doing push ups.

Yes I know. I wasn't claiming MMR had anything to do with unlocks, I was saying that these high MMR players already have a ton of unlocks which they'd actually get to use were they able to play on that account, as opposed to their smurf. I have friends with high MMR smurfs in the same boat as their main account, just w/o the unlocks lol

The point is: Unlocks are a built in mechanic to make playing your main account more valuable.

Edited by RedVan, 25 March 2015 - 05:01 PM.


#22
M4st0d0n

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Yes I know. I wasn't claiming MMR had anything to do with unlocks, I was saying that these high MMR players already have a ton of unlocks which they'd actually get to use were they able to play on that account, as opposed to their smurf. I have friends with high MMR smurfs in the same boat as their main account, just w/o the unlocks lol

The point is: Unlocks are a built in mechanic to make playing your main account more valuable.

 

Yes, and I never talked about locking all this stuff again, your comment is still totally out of scope. Arguably, Hawken credits, XPs and unlocks aren't valuable enough to restrain people from smurfing. Like MMR that you build back to 1900, you can get your main gear in a matter of just a few hours. Underdog bonus is even helping. There's plenty of games with built in mechanics to discourage smurfing and pubstomps and I dont talk about BF. Just the basics. If Hawken could just get a functionnal quickmatch button... After that we could talk about multiple MMRs for a partysystem, seasonnal reset to keep the vets involved, ranked mode access and endgame stuff. But that's a bit too much for a beta I guess.

 

I'm just amazed how the vast majority of the community find smurfing a necessary evil. Has been discussed to the bone on the old forum already. People can spend 20 mins to create a smurf account, 30 mins to post a wallotext about it, but would be incapable to wait more than two mins to get a proper lobby to open on the server list, rather make some newb ragequit until low tiers lobby are full of vets watching the game die. It's pathetic.



#23
RedVan

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Yes, and I never talked about locking all this stuff again, your comment is still totally out of scope. Arguably, Hawken credits, XPs and unlocks aren't valuable enough to restrain people from smurfing. Like MMR that you build back to 1900, you can get your main gear in a matter of just a few hours. Underdog bonus is even helping. There's plenty of games with built in mechanics to discourage smurfing and pubstomps and I dont talk about BF. Just the basics. If Hawken could just get a functionnal quickmatch button... After that we could talk about multiple MMRs for a partysystem, seasonnal reset to keep the vets involved, ranked mode access and endgame stuff. But that's a bit too much for a beta I guess.

 

I'm just amazed how the vast majority of the community find smurfing a necessary evil. Has been discussed to the bone on the old forum already. People can spend 20 mins to create a smurf account, 30 mins to post a wallotext about it, but would be incapable to wait more than two mins to get a proper lobby to open on the server list, rather make some newb ragequit until low tiers lobby are full of vets watching the game die. It's pathetic.

 


Not really sure what you're getting at...  I know you never talked about locking all the stuff again... The point I was making was that when someone makes a smurf, they start with nothing.  Therefore, the inbuilt mechanic hawken has to prevent smurfing is the unlocks.  People that have to smurf, do so because their MMR is too high.  If they could get into games with their main account, they would not smurf, because they already have everything unlocked that they want.

 

Yes, there will always be some players that smurf just to smurf.  I've done so in many games, simply for fun.  Not to be an ass, not to get into low skill matches (as the games I've done it frequently in had no MM system). 

 

People need to get it out of their heads that those who smurf are out to ruin everybody's day.  They're not.  They just want to be able to play the game at all.  Smurfing is not inherently evil as people are portraying it to be.

 

And 2 mins to get a good match...  nah, it's quite a bit more than that many times.  But trust me, when there is a high MMR match to join, they join it!


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#24
M4st0d0n

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I NO RITE. MMR promotes smurfing in this game. Oh the irony. Obviously it's perfectly normal and working as intended.

 

What I'm getting at is, and I'll repeat it again for you to understand... It's not "absurd" or "comical" to find pubstomps and smurfing weird, because there is plenty of games that are discouraging this. With some kind of endgame for example.

 

You think smurfing is benine. Fair enough. I've got one major problem with smurfing. Right now I'm reading some christmas wishlist about game balance to the new devs and someone asks to back arguments up with gamedata. How can you back anything up with a gamedata as rotten as it could be in this game where every vet has multiple account? Better luck betatesting this game with monkeys. They are less biased.



#25
HorseHeadProphet

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173 IQ

 

thinks Pub Stomping can be stopped or banned

 

 

seems legit


The Hawken forum's a forum, but it's like the only one you get yelled at for using.





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