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The Elephant In The Room: Orblord Meta

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#1
Nightfirebolt

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I've been seeing a lot of threads with suggestions for fixes and changes to various mechanics of the game, but I haven't seen any about the obvious problem of the orblord metagame yet, so I figured I'd make one.
 
The problem is that pilots who are running orblord have a marked advantage over those who aren't. Even pilots who aren't using full orblord but are simply using extractor have a marked advantage over those who aren't. Most high MMR players load orb/extractor as part of their standard equipment, regardless of what mech they're piloting, because they HAVE to. In order to compete at high levels you MUST at least have one orb and an extractor on your mech, because after all, when you're up against someone who effectively has 120+ more hit points than you (or 240+ in an extended battle) they will win, even if you're the better player.
 
Granted, the orbs you can carry are are finite, but it hardly matters in DM, TDM and MA where you have literally unlimited orbs from kills. High tier matches sometimes seem to come down to a matter of who is better at dancing/dodging over orbs, and that is a problem. Forcing every player to conform to a single metagame is not balance. It also renders most of the other internals useless in comparison.
 
There is usually a diverse selection of mechs present in top tier matches - which says to me that the mechs themselves are well balanced - but extractors and/or repair kits always seem ubiquitous for items/internals. This seems problematic to me.
 
Anyway, I'm not sure exactly -what- should be done about this, but I think that something definitely should be. Maybe orbs need their healing reduced by 40 or 60. Maybe extractor should take up three internal slots instead of two, or maybe repair kits need to be tossed altogether.
 
Thoughts?

Edited by Nightfirebolt, 09 April 2015 - 02:42 PM.

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#2
Amidatelion

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Someone, Merl maybe, suggested bringing deployable orb healing down to 60 to bring it in line with the health advantage afforded by a detonator.

 

Other than that, just tinker with percentages. There are alternatives to the meta, as well. Like ignoring the dude squatting on the orbs and going off to kill just about anyone else.

 

This is the preferred method of fighting Dave.


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#3
Grollourdo

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Umm so what about orbs? I don't see the problem here XD lol

Like I said in all the air compressor threads if u want to optimize orbs then do so if u don't really care about orbs don't use orbs

One of the joys of hawken is to build and use your playstyle no? If u wanna take advantage of orbs then do so some people will take advantage of mobility, some will take advantage of deffence some will balance all three it all depends on ur playstyle and u mastering the playstyle u adapted to or created

And with this playstyle u shale play

Knowing that there are other play styles out there, learn to play against them

In this case learn to adapt and learn and find a way to beat the guys using orbs . weather u play fire against fire or counters against orbs , just find the one most cobvinient for u and learn.

If ur opponent decides to specualize in orbs then there should be things that the orb user don't have right? Find it and learn! XD

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#4
Nightfirebolt

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In this case learn to adapt and learn and find a way to beat the guys using orbs . weather u play fire against fire or counters against orbs , just find the one most cobvinient for u and learn.
 

 

The problem is there isn't any counter for orbs. Think about it. Name one top-tier player who doesn't use extractor. I can't think of a single one. There's a reason for that.


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#5
HubbaBubba9849

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I figure just reducing the absorption rate would help a lot. With an extractor sucking up 2 or more orbs, you get around 100 armor per second. In battle, with an extractor, even just boosting over an orb repairs like 50. I'd say either cut the absorption rate in half or rework the extractor entirely. Maybe instead of increasing the absorption rate, it could increase the range at which orbs start getting absorbed.


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#6
Grollourdo

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The problem is there isn't any counter for orbs. Think about it. Name one top-tier player who doesn't use extractor. I can't think of a single one. There's a reason for that.


I don't use extractor for one XD

If they use orbs then they have more survivability so why not get and air compressor and kill him. See? Also u can also take orbs right? Steal his orbs then focus on taking advantage of knowing where his next move is etc fund the counters. Everything has counters

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#7
Grollourdo

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I figure just reducing the absorption rate would help a lot. With an extractor sucking up 2 or more orbs, you get around 100 armor per second. In battle, with an extractor, even just boosting over an orb repairs like 50. I'd say either cut the absorption rate in half or rework the extractor entirely. Maybe instead of increasing the absorption rate, it could increase the range at which orbs start getting absorbed.


Good point...

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#8
EM1O

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#9
HubbaBubba9849

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I'd just like to add:

I didn't realize healing stacked so directly. I figured the second and third orbs would bring the rate up to something like 75 and then 100, but they literally stack right on top of one another. 50-100-150.


Edited by HubbaBubba9849, 28 March 2015 - 05:20 PM.

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#10
IareDave

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Orbs aren't the main issue. The issue is how unviable a majority of the internal builds are compared to the orb lord setup. The only composition that I can think of that is on a similar tier are variations using air comp and other builds that use Armor fusors. 


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#11
crockrocket

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Orbs aren't the main issue. The issue is how unviable a majority of the internal builds are compared to the orb lord setup. The only composition that I can think of that is on a similar tier are variations using air comp and other builds that use Armor fusors.


This. I definitely support the idea of limiting the ubiquity of orb lord through adding options rather than through a Nerf.
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#12
Dr_Freeze001

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I'd just like to add:

I didn't realize healing stacked so directly. I figured the second and third orbs would bring the rate up to something like 75 and then 100, but they literally stack right on top of one another. 50-100-150.

 

Tech is OP, plz rmove.


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#13
HugeGuts

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This is yet another problem easily solved by rolling back to early alpha/beta. Back before Optimization Trees were nerfed, all three trees - Offense, Defense, and Movement - had viable builds for every class, and there wasn't one build that had obvious superiority to every other build.

The only thing Optimization Trees needed were to combine with Internals, since they're basically the same thing.

#14
WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW

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Orbs aren't the main issue. The issue is how unviable a majority of the internal builds are compared to the orb lord setup. The only composition that I can think of that is on a similar tier are variations using air comp and other builds that use Armor fusors. 

While I largely agree with the approach of introducing more interesting internals, I think orbs are still rather strong. Within a about two seconds of repairing on top of an orb I can go from ~100 HP to ~585 HP. Finding an orb lying around while duelling someone while I have a spare in my inventory effectively ensures either my victory or that I fight as if I was full HP already against someone who likely caught me out after a fight.

 

Even then, it's not really the orb's problem, more likely it's the heavy synergy between orb stacking mechanisms, extractor, and repair kit altogether. I'd like to see non-linear change in rate of absorption at multiple orbs to make it less efficient as someone else mentioned.


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#15
bacon_avenger

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This is yet another problem easily solved by rolling back to early alpha/beta. Back before Optimization Trees were nerfed, all three trees - Offense, Defense, and Movement - had viable builds for every class, and there wasn't one build that had obvious superiority to every other build.

Ehhh, not so much.  I still remember the movement tree being the one that was used the most.

 

It's 'saving grace', if it had one, was that it was nerfed really hard.  That was when ADH was still saying they were working on a horizontal progression tree, which was the opposite of what we got with ascension and it's really nasty vertical one.


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#16
MomOw

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While I largely agree with the approach of introducing more interesting internals, I think orbs are still rather strong. Within a about two seconds of repairing on top of an orb I can go from ~100 HP to ~585 HP. Finding an orb lying around while duelling someone while I have a spare in my inventory effectively ensures either my victory or that I fight as if I was full HP already against someone who likely caught me out after a fight.

 

Even then, it's not really the orb's problem, more likely it's the heavy synergy between orb stacking mechanisms, extractor, and repair kit altogether. I'd like to see non-linear change in rate of absorption at multiple orbs to make it less efficient as someone else mentioned.

 

I agree with you if you mean a slight buff of some internals and tweak the health regen given by orbs (regen' cap or regen' decreased per orb after the first one).


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#17
defekt

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Once upon a time, in a galaxy far, far away, healing was rare and risky.  And it was good.  Now it isn't


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#18
Hyginos

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If you want to directly nerf orb lord / orb tanking maybe disable repair kit and/or extractor for one second or so every time the mech takes damage. That would make it rather difficult for a scout to just swipe an orb out in the open and get 200 extra armor, but it wouldn't darastically nerf defensive orbs in retreat positions.

 

EDIT: I just want to put out the current numbers. Assuming I've mathed correctly the orb will give 34 armor per second naked, 45.22 APS with extractor, 42.5 APS with advanced repair kit, and 53.125 with both. SMC does 53 DPS at about 90 meters, which is bit under 5 side dashes for a b mech.


Edited by Hyginos, 29 March 2015 - 04:37 PM.

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#19
Brawler_Yukon

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This. I definitely support the idea of limiting the ubiquity of orb lord through adding options rather than through a Nerf.

Make other things on level as orb-lord to make them all even? What a breakthrough concept. (I'm only salty because a lot of dev's now-a-days don't understand this concept)


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#20
moosa17

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Make other things on level as orb-lord to make them all even? What a breakthrough concept. (I'm only salty because a lot of dev's now-a-days don't understand this concept)

I actually don't agree with the idea, in this particular case. Items are really expensive (like do you want a new mech, or new items for the mech you already have?), and I don't feel they should swing too much of an advantage. It also smells of P2W. 

I've unlocked few items simply because I was more interested in unlocking more mechs. That seemed like more fun. It would be terribly frustrating to have to pony up X amount of credits after buying each new mech in order to be able to compete at all. That's why benefits granted by items (and even internals) should be kept to a minimum, as it already is with most in Hawken. I like where the turrets and EMP's are. Everything should be balanced to that level of effectiveness. 

TL;DR: Making items really strong means you're required to pay more to be competitive. 


Edited by moosa17, 29 March 2015 - 09:53 PM.


#21
Brawler_Yukon

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I actually don't agree with the idea, in this particular case. Items are really expensive (like do you want a new mech, or new items for the mech you already have?), and I don't feel they should swing too much of an advantage. It also smells of P2W. 

I've unlocked few items simply because I was more interested in unlocking more mechs. That seemed like more fun. It would be terribly frustrating to have to pony up X amount of credits after buying each new mech in order to be able to compete at all. That's why benefits granted by items (and even internals) should be kept to a minimum, as it already is with most in Hawken. I like where the turrets and EMP's are. Everything should be balanced to that level of effectiveness. 

TL;DR: Making items really strong means you're required to pay more to be competitive. 

Items compared to mechs aren't actually all that expensive, and items REALLY don't matter compared to a good mech+player synergy. I've NEVER bought any items, I've only bought mechs, and afterwards bought internals(And only the extractor at that, since better EU utility in siege) so really making other internals competitive with the orblord meta wouldn't actually make it or them all that better since orblord isn't even roflstomp material, it's just a clear advantage, you can still win against someone running Extractor/Adv.Repair+Repair charge. Seriously though, Extractor nor Adv Rep. need nerfing, they work fine and don't actually break the game, the other internals need the utility those two provide.

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#22
moosa17

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I don't really understand what your issue is with nerfing overpowered items, nor am I sure if your opinion is particularly relevant here, if you've never used them before.

People have provided math, and if a person can stand on top of 3 orbs and regenerate 150 armor per second, effectively making them invincible for a few seconds, that can be problematic. 



#23
Brawler_Yukon

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 nerfing overpowered items, 

overpowerd items,

overpowered

That's where I have the problem, because they AREN'T this is like saying combo's in fighting games are OP because they can kill you in one go, if the problem is three health orbs at once, adjust the orbs to only heal one at a time.

 

Also I'm glad you didn't actually read what I posted, but thanks. if you had you'd know I have bought internals, which are what we're talking about, because the RC is an item that has to be in the game if you're going to have healing like the orbs, and the only thing you can do to fix it (maybe) is reduce the amount of healing it does overall. Like making it immune to repair kit.


Edited by Brawler_Yukon, 30 March 2015 - 09:26 AM.

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#24
HubbaBubba9849

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Good lord, imagine this scenario:

 

Vangaurd

-internals:

--composite armor, extractor, and advanced repair kit

 

-items

--mk.3 orbs and item regenerator

 

dies/suicides once to get composite armor effect.

drops all three orbs in a corner, then goes turret mode.

 

with the extractor, the three orbs will repair the vangaurd at a rate of ~150 armor per second

with the advanced repair kit, the three orbs are each boosted to ~212, so ~636 total repair

with turret mode combined with composite armor, damage is reduced beyond 60%

 

Lets say a papa incinerator begins attacking this vangaurd. I'm not sure of the exact number, but lets say it can do ~200 dps.

Because of the vangaurd's turret mode, that 200 dps gets reduced to 80 (or less with composite armor).

At this point, only two orbs would even be necessary to out-heal that amount of dps.

 

TL;DR A turreted vangaurd with extractor only needs to sit on two orbs for temporary invincibility.

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#25
Brawler_Yukon

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Good lord, imagine this scenario:

 

Vangaurd

-internals:

--composite armor, extractor, and advanced repair kit

 

-items

--mk.3 orbs and item regenerator

 

dies/suicides once to get composite armor effect.

drops all three orbs in a corner, then goes turret mode.

 

with the extractor, the three orbs will repair the vangaurd at a rate of ~150 armor per second

with the advanced repair kit, the three orbs are each boosted to ~212, so ~636 total repair

with turret mode combined with composite armor, damage is reduced beyond 60%

 

Lets say a papa incinerator begins attacking this vangaurd. I'm not sure of the exact number, but lets say it can do ~200 dps.

Because of the vangaurd's turret mode, that 200 dps gets reduced to 80 (or less with composite armor).

At this point, only two orbs would even be necessary to out-heal that amount of dps.

 

TL;DR A turreted vangaurd with extractor only needs to sit on two orbs for temporary invincibility.

Spoiler

That's pretty neat. And yeah the healing rate of the orbs shouldn't stack that tremendously. maybe they could if out of combat, but in combat that is an insane amount of healing, and should be fixed, but not by reducing the extractors effectiveness.

For Siege it only hurts people who use it for utility rather than competitive.

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Edited by Brawler_Yukon, 30 March 2015 - 12:47 PM.

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#26
Jelooboi

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Good lord, imagine this scenario:

 

Vangaurd

-internals:

--composite armor, extractor, and advanced repair kit

 

-items

--mk.3 orbs and item regenerator

 

dies/suicides once to get composite armor effect.

drops all three orbs in a corner, then goes turret mode.

 

with the extractor, the three orbs will repair the vangaurd at a rate of ~150 armor per second

with the advanced repair kit, the three orbs are each boosted to ~212, so ~636 total repair

with turret mode combined with composite armor, damage is reduced beyond 60%

 

Lets say a papa incinerator begins attacking this vangaurd. I'm not sure of the exact number, but lets say it can do ~200 dps.

Because of the vangaurd's turret mode, that 200 dps gets reduced to 80 (or less with composite armor).

At this point, only two orbs would even be necessary to out-heal that amount of dps.

 

TL;DR A turreted vangaurd with extractor only needs to sit on two orbs for temporary invincibility.

Spoiler

Nope, I've tried this and usually I overheat before I get the kill thanks to the incinerator's retarded weapon that transfers heat to me. 






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