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A Question To CB Veterans

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#1
DerMax

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Hey Closed Beta vets.

 

Here's the question: Was CB more fun to play than the current version of Hawken or not? And why?

 

 

*OB vets (pre-Technician) are also welcome to express their opinion.


Edited by DerMax, 26 March 2015 - 09:57 AM.

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#2
Deadmen_Tim

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Installed Hawken in early 2013, February i think.

 

First month i spent only mastering the game mechanics, there was that much that is lost now.

Deeper heat management, movement accelerations, deeper fuel management (dodges consumed fuel, overall lower fuel amounts), weapons spread for example.

 

No magical mechs - no tech that heals (heals mechs, dammit!), no incinerator that throws magical fireballs indefinitely, no pred that gives no heck abous map architecture.

 

There was some problems with C classes for expample, but it were problems that one can balance. It's not the tech that you can't balance by design.

 

There was no flying circus - every move, every dodge and every turn were pulling you ahead or making you loose. Every fight was a tactical battle.

 

Game felt unique, and it was unique promising project.

 

 

That's what i can tell you in 5 minutes. Of couse there is more to say, other people sure will add something.


Edited by Deadmen_Tim, 26 March 2015 - 09:26 AM.

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#3
Fantus_Longhorn

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Maybe? It's years ago now and I can't say I remember it all that clearly. I started in CB2 and really enjoyed it, it was shiny and new for then so I can't say if it was better then or not. I feel like the core experience was better then but my judgement may be clouded.


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#4
Pastorius

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I agree with Deadmen_Tim. It was far more technical and (though there is a lot of talk about the learning curve at present) the learning curve was greater then.

One thing I miss is the sound design in the early OB. It actually felt/sounded like TOW's were flying past your head. The sound was grittier and more dynamic, a lot less processed/compressed than it is now. It seems similar to what happens in music production regarding "the loudness war".

 

The immersion in the cockpit was just awesome then. For all intent and purpose you felt like you were driving those things into battle. Yes it seams faster now but more clinical and somehow more removed.


Edited by Pastorius, 26 March 2015 - 10:38 AM.

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#5
Elite_is_salty

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I came by at Feb 2013. And the game was more HAWKENISH. Meaning HAWKEN's core stands out more than other things.

 

The battles were more tactical and epic, deathballs only happened in unbalanced siege games, which weren't nearly as frequent because before balance was better and there was good teamplay.

 

VOIP helped a lot and there were very active groups, clans or not. There was rarely any hackers and exploiters.

 

But now: low TTK, light mechs flying all over the place, OP combos like tech-incin. All of this not just changed the scene, but drove people away. Believe me. Right after the tech patch, ascension and steam; people were leaving in bunches. Old veterans that know the game and played it for its uniqueness.

 

You know, I once counted the people on my friends list. They counted 360. I had to delete 290 of them to help my syncing issues, and all those people were lost, they left anyways and never were active. These are my friends that are potentiall ELITE players that know the game very well, AND that use voice comms.That's the quality of the lost player-base after those gamechanging patches.

 

I strongly encourage major efforts to reduce the effect of all those patches. Balancing the tech and incin, increasing the TTK, making the air game less of a go-to strategy ...

 

 

I NEVER left HAWKEN. Always kept playing because I had some friends like eth0, incitatus, bkcat ... who also stuck around.

 

I think since old farts are coming back, how about we bring some, just some old stuff back:

 

- Weapon spread: ENOUGH sustained fuzzy bunny. With that, everything will be just GREAT. Then, it will be less bullets all over the place, and people will be more effective and patient.

 

- A step close to ground orientation: Slower air speed for ALL mechs. 20% decrease would be AMAZING. There are enough air-ship-fps games out there. Axes are heavy badass mechs that shouldn't be floating in the air like a damn butterfly. Remind me of the last time you engaged a zerker in a 2000+ server that wasn't soaring in the air every time. Go ahead.

 

- Items reload from bases: Mechs can refill their items at the bases in MA and SG modes. It's real nice, believe me. Or if you like remove the marked items BS and make items reload like before.

 

- Remove the fuel consumption of the infiltrator's ability. I have over 400 hours in the mech, I know what I'm talking about, the current ability is absolute fuzzy bunny. Just make it time limited. Pre-steam lasted 8 seconds, and took 16 secs to recharge (just like the pred's current recharge), and was very balanced. ALL old infil mainers know how much of a pain the current ability is. Ask -Tj- lol.

 

- Increase the TTK by 50 for all mechs. Make it gradually happen. Increase 10 every months. Just face it, longer battles are epic.

 

- Show the ratings of the servers so that people know clearly where they're going. Also show them their MMRs. The people who really want to know it find ways to know it anyways. Make it easier for them.

 

- This one might not be a very good suggestion but, why not bring back the switch team button that was in pre-ascension? But make a voting for allowing it. If people vote for it, they clearly want to be able to build the teams as they will, or want to balance things.

 

 

I don't know what to add, I forget things.

 

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#6
Miscellaneous

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*OB vets (pre-Summer 2013) are also welcome to express their opinion.

 Darnit Max!

 

I joined Summer 2013 :,(

 

I just realised I've been playing this game for nearly 2 years.

 

:o


Edited by Miscellaneous, 26 March 2015 - 09:42 AM.

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#7
dorobo

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I remember that bruiser had sharpshooter's chassis. I had a weak pc back then with little ram so certain maps would not load at all and those that i get to play (wich i think was a testmap most of the time) crashed after each game and i had to start game all over and look for another game with matchmaking. Still I couldn't stop playing. Yes immersion was much better and I miss sound design from that time too. Maybe they optimized it too much..


Edited by dorobo, 26 March 2015 - 09:52 AM.


#8
defekt

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Gosh, that's a very difficult question to answer.  'Now' and 'Then' both have their boons and their busts but I did like how fast it was (Alpha was blisteringly quick), the TTK was a tad long but it felt better than the cardboard fighting machines we have now, and there's no denying that the game had a greater reliance on good resource management (Health, Heat, Fuel and consumables). 

 

If I were given the option of bringing only one thing back from the old says it would be to make healing super-risky again by virtue of bringing back the resource management requirements.  You see, here's where I think there might be a bridge between the 'arena shooter' and 'mech' camps: resource management.  Simply by needing to husband your resources (Health, Heat, Fuel and consumables) you instantly add a tasty dose of 'mech' to the game, and that leaves plenty of room for things like speed and maybe a low(ish) TTK for that 'arena shooter' kicker. 


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#9
DerMax

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 Darnit Max!

 

I joined Summer 2013 :,(

 

I just realised I've been playing this game for nearly 2 years.

 

:o

Pre-tech?



#10
Miscellaneous

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Pre-tech?

 

Not sure, When did the tech come out? I started playing may-ish, and I don't remember seeing any techs in matches. That might've just been my low level though.


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#11
Superkamikazee

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I came by at Feb 2013. And the game was more HAWKENISH. Meaning HAWKEN's core stands out more than other things.

 

The battles were more tactical and epic, deathballs only happened in unbalanced siege games, which weren't nearly as frequent because before balance was better and there was good teamplay.

 

VOIP helped a lot and there were very active groups, clans or not. There was rarely any hackers and exploiters.

 

But now: low TTK, light mechs flying all over the place, OP combos like tech-incin. All of this not just changed the scene, but drove people away. Believe me. Right after the tech patch, ascension and steam; people were leaving in bunches. Old veterans that know the game and played it for its uniqueness.

 

You know, I once counted the people on my friends list. They counted 360. I had to delete 290 of them to help my syncing issues, and all those people were lost, they left anyways and never were active. These are my friends that are potentiall ELITE players that know the game very well, AND that use voice comms.That's the quality of the lost player-base after those gamechanging patches.

 

I strongly encourage major efforts to reduce the effect of all those patches. Balancing the tech and incin, increasing the TTK, making the air game less of a go-to strategy ...

 

 

This!


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#12
DerMax

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Not sure, When did the tech come out? I started playing may-ish, and I don't remember seeing any techs in matches. That might've just been my low level though.

May is pre-summer. The Tech came out in late Summer, IIRC.



#13
ticklemyiguana

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No, no, I certainly was not a part of this era. However, I'd like to point out a small flaw in the question. The people here from those days are here mostly because when they picked up the game, they liked it. The people here from post CB days are here for the same reason.

Essentially there's a large sampling bias with the question.

When I joined the tech was in the game, there were no skill trees, aerial combat was common, and the TTK was comparably low. This is what feels like Hawken to me. I'm sure a few people reading this post have noticed that I've suggested several tweaks for the game. However all of these are simply tweaks, not the removal of whole components that I, and many other players, feel are part of the game.

In posing a question answerable only by the group that not only picked up the game in that time, but is still around years later, you're not getting a real answer.

I'm not saying I have a better way to do what you're trying to do. What I am saying is that the sheer numerical results you get, ie: 12 people think HWK was more fun back then, is worthless.

Please; when responding to this question, fulfill the "why" part as best as possible, and when reading, keep in mind that there is a large section of the community not expressing their opinion.

Edited by ticklemyiguana, 26 March 2015 - 10:08 AM.

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#14
dorobo

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Btw Deadmen_Tim was one of those that left the game. Him and all of his russian clan 'vodka people'. They were the best while they lasted. Even when they played against americans with bad pings they were better.


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#15
Miscellaneous

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May is pre-summer. The Tech came out in late Summer, IIRC.

 

I probably played without any techs for a while then. Everything felt... different then. TTK was longer (Or felt longer, anyway), so being on low HP was a really big deal. Flying was a big risk that you'd just get nailed by 50 different TOWs the second your foot left the ground, at the chance of getting a higher point.

 

I must say one thing though. The game felt more... gritty. You felt like you were in a mech. What I mean by this is that TOWs looked more deadly. The inside of the mech looked more like a mech made of spare parts (Lore) than a futuristic death machine. I just loved the steampunk FEEL of it.

 

I think this should be brought back.


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#16
KejiGoto

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Yes and no.

 

Hawken was still very new to me back then despite having been involved with the game since the first closed alpha so it had that going for it. Since things were so new people were still discovering the game and it played rather differently back then with the skill tree, pro/con internals, and all that. I definitely enjoyed the speed and the longer time to kill back then as engagements felt like they had more weight behind them and mechs weren't paper thin. The lack of aerial combat was annoying in some aspects because the game really does play well with it but the ground focused combat was good enough.

However Hawken now is a much better balanced game than it was back then without so many broken items and weapons. The new internal system is far better too and thankfully that pointless skill tree is gone. With better balance means Hawken is more fun to play overall even if it does feel different at its core but that's okay. 

 

Personally I'd rather Reloaded Games focus on making minor tweaks to Hawken's current formula than changing anything up or trying to go back to how things were. Major changes should be saved for stuff like reworking radar or getting Siege mode back on track.


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#17
HugeGuts

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CB was better. If only for the fact of it being closer to a completed game than the current version. Whether it was the old dev's intention or not, CB's mechanics still meshed together in such a way to create the beginnings of a unique thinking-man's FPS that was slow enough for inexperienced players to get into, yet still had enough nuances for advanced game play.

 

Hawken, as the arena shooter it is today, has a much longer ways to go to become a completed game when compared to CB. Especially if it wants to compete against the upcoming Heavy Gear Assault and UT99 remake.


Edited by HugeGuts, 26 March 2015 - 10:25 AM.

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#18
Superkamikazee

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No, no, I certainly was not a part of this era. However, I'd like to point out a small flaw in the question. The people here from those days are here mostly because when they picked up the game, they liked it. The people here from post CB days are here for the same reason.

Essentially there's a large sampling bias with the question.

When I joined the tech was in the game, there were no skill trees, aerial combat was common, and the TTK was comparably low. This is what feels like Hawken to me. I'm sure a few people reading this post have noticed that I've suggested several tweaks for the game. However all of these are simply tweaks, not the removal of whole components that I, and many other players, feel are part of the game.

In posing a question answerable only by the group that not only picked up the game in that time, but is still around years later, you're not getting a real answer.

I'm not saying I have a better way to do what you're trying to do. What I am saying is that the sheer numerical results you get, ie: 12 people think HWK was more fun back then, is worthless.

Please; when responding to this question, fulfill the "why" part as best as possible, and when reading, keep in mind that there is a large section of the community not expressing their opinion.

 

Something to consider, the people who got Hawken popular left by the time you joined up. Population continued to decline during your tenure. Take that for what it's worth. 


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#19
Anichkov3

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The game was just different. And in my opinion was not in Technic and Incinerator thing - strongly has changed behavior in the air of mechs. The dynamics of the game changed too, I remember how strange it was after the global change TTX of mechs. 

But in general appreciate the that the game is has become much more fun and dynamic.

P.S. Started playing with January 2013. But began to play regularly with autumn 2014, and still does not let go.


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#20
DM30

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Tough question to answer. One of the most exciting times for Hawken for me was in the closed betas, but a lot of that was probably just the fact that it was new to me and so I was still all "OOH! SHINY!"

 

The gameplay definitely grabbed me in that period, though. The pacing and speed of battles felt pretty good to me, although some of the faster ground movement now is nice and I don't mind the quicker kill times. Greater need for resource management made things a bit more complex and added some depth, but felt restrictive a lot of the time too.

 

The closed betas and early, early OB periods had the best in-game atmosphere though, without question. The haze and fog effects, the overall darker and grittier feel of the maps in most cases, the feeling of weight to the mechs without them being super slow and ponderous (definitely no mistaking it for a mech sim, even in its 'slowest' times). And as Pastorius said, the freaking sound design! The fact that the tone of the sound effects changed depending on distance and where in the map you were, rather than just being quieter like now. Everything just sounded and felt more powerful and immersive than it does now. True, the old HUD was clunky even if it was cool, and unoptimized, and my frame rate dropped to like 5 on Origin (Titan as it was back then), but I didn't care so much then. It really drew me in as a player.

 

But, balance-wise, it is way, WAY better now. There are a couple of outliers but for the most part all weight classes and mechs feel like they're in pretty good positions relative to each other, and I usually don't feel like I'm forced to not play a certain mech because I'll be gimping myself and my team if I do. I also was never a fan of the optimization trees in either of their forms. They were either TOO effective (vertical progression, blegh) or completely pointless with their <1% differences.

 

In terms of overall enjoyment, the atmosphere and feel of Hawken in the closed betas probably made that the time period where I enjoyed the game the most, though I do still like it a lot now. If some of the feel of that era could be brought back without compromising the balance we have now and without lagging everything to hell, I would be an extremely happy camper.


Edited by DM30, 26 March 2015 - 11:08 AM.

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#21
nokari

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Everything took longer and KDAs were all higher. That's what I remember most.


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#22
RespawningJesus

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Old Hawken bored me to the ppint I was off and on with it. I did not start fully enjoying Hawken until Acension. Although Old Hawken had much better immersion, and actually felt like you were in a mech. I remember when EMPS were broken, amd Alpha Striking was a thing.

Good times, but I enjoy the game more.

Edited by RespawningJesus, 26 March 2015 - 11:18 AM.


#23
StubbornPuppet

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I've been in since some time in early 2013.  I will try to avoid "better or worse" opinions about the gameplay, graphics, etc. because I know I have a tendency to photoshop my memories to a degree.

 

What I do know is that for every single update that Adhesive made that mentioned improvements to frame-rate, lag/synchronization, texture tearing, load times, hit detection or optimization for this or that graphic chipset, I watched the graphic atmosphere of the game simplify.  There used to be this glorious, post-apocalyptic haze in the air.  There were more halos and lens flares.  The boost jets on mechs and missiles had nice, long smoke trails.  There were marks left on the ground where mechs landed or where they dodged.  There were lots of ships and drones flying around in the sky everywhere.  More of the environment was interactively destructible (but some of the very early stuff just messed up the way maps and game-modes worked as well).  And everything had this very "cold-war" cinematic visual vibe to it in general.

 

So, they essentially kept removing more and more of the aesthetics to make the game run smoother.  Eh, whaddayagonnado?

 

As I've said before, I also, personally, preferred the slightly slower paced Hawken.  It's still incredibly fun as it is... but I think I'd be happier going back to many of the pre-steam and pre-ascension elements.


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#24
Leonhardt

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There were some little things I really loved (especially playing without a tech or easy way to heal), but other than that I can safely say I do not miss Alpha, CB or early OB. The game is far more polished, balanced and fun to play now than it was back then.

 

I think the biggest thing I miss was being able to always find a game closer to my skill level as at the time there were a lot more players around that high MMR mark that would just pile into a server every night. Now that doesn't happen as often.


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#25
defekt

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Something to consider, the people who got Hawken popular left by the time you joined up. Population continued to decline during your tenure. Take that for what it's worth. 

Something to consider: Hawken was never popular, by almost any reasonable measure you can think of.  Honestly, I'm not trying to be snide, but Hawken took three or four really long run-ups and barely managed to get one foot off the ground each time.  It remains one of the most wasted opportunities of my gaming career.  Fortunately, thanks entirely to Reloaded, Hawken gets another run-up.  :thumbsup:


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#26
MaNia_C

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   The game aesthetics and the graphic novels are the reason why i never lost the immersion factor in Hawken. I just entered after the reaper was introduced so that's around April 2013 or something..i can't remember. I don't care if Reloaded introduces the G2 Incin-O-tech 2000 and triple somersault air-dodge. The main reason i keep coming back to play this game is you guys..my friends and combatants..

 

You are my main immersion factor..

 

..and i thank you for it  :kiss:  :yes:


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#27
Sylhiri

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There are parts of CB that I enjoy more then this build and parts from this build I would rather have over CB.

 

I miss dancing the most q.q



#28
Superkamikazee

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Something to consider: Hawken was never popular, by almost any reasonable measure you can think of.  Honestly, I'm not trying to be snide, but Hawken took three or four really long run-ups and barely managed to get one foot off the ground each time.  It remains one of the most wasted opportunities of my gaming career.  Fortunately, thanks entirely to Reloaded, Hawken gets another run-up.  :thumbsup:

 

Like I said, take it for what it's worth. But it seemed like every update a chunk of the player base left, eventually leveling out. Is that representative of people leaving because each update got worse, they got bored, or a symptom of a game with no direction. I never said Hawken was a smash hit, but it is safe to say the player base did take some significant hits and dives over the years. All anecdotal of course but hey like you said, it has a second lease on life so it a way it doesn't really matter now. I hope Reloaded can figure out what the right direction is for Hawken. I want a mech game mech fans can enjoy, we don't have too many to choose from, so Reloaded has a lot of responsibility on them to deliver the game the fans want. 


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#29
defekt

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I hope Reloaded can figure out what the right direction is for Hawken. I want a mech game mech fans can enjoy, we don't have too many to choose from, so Reloaded has a lot of responsibility on them to deliver the game the fans want. 

A big Amen to that.  :) 


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#30
Elite_is_salty

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I think one good way of looking at this, or of approaching the comparison between the game elements of both eras is not looking at each individual one and compare it, but to look at the harmony of all the elements and the full experience that each set of elements forming the certain build create. If we look at it from that angle. CB/earlyOB wins, and by a clear margin.

 

I personally enjoyed every aspect of it. I mean, this may be the most unhealthy argument ever, but, the experience was SO GOOD, that for months and months I MAINED a damn SHARPSHOOTER playing in the DAMN USW servers, with FREAKING 260 ping. I did not give any fuzzy bunnies, whatsoever. THAT is how amazing the experience was. I'm not even joking. I also wasn't terrible at that time. Unlike now.


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#31
AsianJoyKiller

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High TTKs, lack of safe healing, high speeds, maps designed for those speeds, and such were things that I enjoyed a lot about the CB.

Of course, there were downsides. TOWs and Grenades with the explosion radius of a star going supernova. Repair times long enough that you could watch the seasons pass outside. Stunlocking. Completely useless turret modes. HEAT Cannon splash being able to go through walls, and so large it could hit you through an AA pillar. Completely and utterly useless turret modes. Significant vertical progression.

 

Long EMPs:



Note to new players, EMPs back then were not "grenades". They fired in a straight line at roughly the same speed as a TOW. They also had a huge radius at one point. Something like 4-6 B-class mech lengths. You literally could not miss as long as you aimed in the general direction of your target.

As early as the Alpha I knew the EMPs were going to be a problem, but it took a while for the rest of the community to realize it.

Infinite Siege:


(I can't remember if the tactic was discovered post-CB, but the mechanics of the mode meant that it was possible before.)

So generally it was the core mechanics that I enjoyed, while there were issues with some of the specifics.


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#32
Superkamikazee

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That dashboard doe, orgasmic. And that audio, gimme it now. Seems like a lot of personality has been sacrificed for low end PC performance. For shame. 


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No crew


#33
Pastorius

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Oooooh, sticking bubble shields to each other and being able to shoot out of them was hilarious! Who was it had that picture with about 8 shields on him at once? 


KOBALT DEFENCE REGIMENT

...and let slip the dogs of war...

Twitter%201.jpg?psid=1Steam%202.jpg?psid=1Tube%203.jpg?psid=1Hawken%204.jpg?psid=1Twitch%205.jpg?psid=1


#34
Interrobang87

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Started playing right before the reaper. As has been said before there was good and bad. Has everyone forgotten how broken eoc infiltrator was? Balance is currently the best its ever been.

Also mentioned a couple times, hawken was far more immersive before they started "optimizing." Tbh the sound and gritty haze was what keep me playing initially.

Healing took more thought cause you needed to hit c sometimes.

Better customization of HUD.

Shields being the most op ever

Glad the skill trees are gone (they were crap) but the rpg side of me wishes there was SOMETHING leveling would do for you, I want to be a special flower!

Sometimes I wish hawken would have leaned a little bit more toward the simulator (higher ttk, resource management, more customization of parts, parts having unique attributes) while still maintaining the pacing and skill attributed to arena shooters. But I understand it was supposed to be the next e sport (yeah right lol).

Post kind of got away from me but you asked.

Edited by Interrobang87, 26 March 2015 - 02:22 PM.

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#35
AsianJoyKiller

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Started playing right before the reaper. As has been said before there was good and bad. Has everyone forgotten how broken eoc infiltrator was? Balance is currently the best its ever been.

CB EOC wasn't good. It was powerful, but the pucks traveled far too slow to be useful even for the more skilled players, and their usefulness as mines was almost nonexistant.



#36
Dawn_of_Ash

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You people who played when everything looked much better were lucky. ;( My computer couldn't handle it and kept dying on me. 



#37
Sylhiri

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Oooooh, sticking bubble shields to each other and being able to shoot out of them was hilarious! Who was it had that picture with about 8 shields on him at once? 

 

ForScience_zpsd647cb00.jpg


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#38
Superkamikazee

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 Balance is currently the best its ever been.

Also mentioned a couple times, hawken was far more immersive before they started "optimizing." Tbh the sound and gritty haze was what keep me playing initially.


Better customization of HUD.


Glad the skill trees are gone (they were crap) but the rpg side of me wishes there was SOMETHING leveling would do for you, I want to be a special flower!

Sometimes I wish hawken would have leaned a little bit more toward the simulator (higher ttk, resource management, more customization of parts, parts having unique attributes) while still maintaining the pacing and skill attributed to arena shooters. But I understand it was supposed to be the next e sport (yeah right lol).

 

 

Yes, I'll take 2 of those Hawkens please, ummm to go please.


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#39
Superkamikazee

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Played a bunch of games tonight, and man at times the game just feels too fast and chaotic, but not chaotic in a good way. I think it might be from all the dodge spamming. I'll have to play a bit more tomorrow, maybe I'm just too old and can't keep up lol. Where's my prune juice?


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#40
SmaCkexe

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I had a very large group playing the game.  Meteor flew myself and my wife out to Boston and Seattle for multiple Pax events to help work the events and help sign people up. I am actually the person who introduced them to IPB and showed them how it would sync with the game better than the forum software they intended to you. I don't say these things to brag but, to point out how early on I was involved with the game.  I was one of the first 100, NON ADH MTR Employees, to get to play the game.   The game was utterly amazing in its Alpha stage.  It was simple, it was dirty, it was immersive and it was by all means absolutely fun.  This was when we had skill trees still.  The game lost a huge player base when they enabled flying and dodging in the air.  A lot of people bailed on the game when those features.  Many people told me the game lost its feel once you had giant fortresses turkeying about.  This game was at its best with quick ground play and slow air movement.  It used to be that if you went airborne you were toast.  We need to go back to that.   I really do miss this game and what it used to be.  I had such high hopes for the game and it seemed like they shattered it and went belly up.

 

 

Just to show you ...

https://fbcdn-sphoto...ed1823536bcd71d


Edited by SmaCkexe, 26 March 2015 - 06:20 PM.

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