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#1
harmless_kittens

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OK, I'll try to be delicate about this, and I apologize if I put this in the wrong forum.

 

As you saw from my previous thread, my son and I are still new players, and we have a long way to go, but we do enjoy the game (although I personally wish it was less "twitch".)  Personally, as a father concerned about the content of games, I'm happy we found a game without foul language and blood/guts all over the place.

 

But my concern is with the site's "welcome" to this forum itself.  I was frankly surprised how long and tedious it was to get anything posted in a prompt manner.  As you may know, someone new to this forum can make ONE post per day here, AND that one post needs to be approved by a moderator before it will show up, AND this process needs to be repeated FIVE times before you are, like I am now, "free at last".

 

Other Wikis/Forums I have joined just list their rules, warning that we'll be banned if we violate them, but they let us start to post and ask questions immediately.  Not trying to be rude here, but it seemed a little extreme for someone like myself to automatically be viewed with such skepticism, like my hand needs to be held and someone needs to look over my shoulder for the first several days.  And as far as waiting for a moderator to approve each post, this did not happen quickly (at least not for an impatient person like myself).  Sometimes it was waiting over 24 hours per post.  The delay/lag was so impactful that in my original thread you "guys" wondered if I was still here, because I had not responded to the great advice you were offering.  I WAS here and trying to respond, but it just took forever for you to see it.

 

Well, I'm here now, and hopefully this post won't get me into trouble, so it's not an issue for ME anymore.  BUT HERE IS WHY I BRING THIS UP:  I've seen a lot of threads where people are complaining about how many have left the game and how important it is to get (and keep) new players like my son and I.  I fully agree.  And this is why I suggest that the "new member" standards for this forum be relaxed.  I am not a patient person by nature, and it was tempted to give up asking my questions on these forums because I was so limited.  I GUARANTEE that there are other people out there who had some questions to ask, but could not tolerate these new member restrictions.  And to me, it is bad for the game if new players don't have a convenient way to ask all the questions they want to, and to get quick answers.

 

Thanks for listening :)


Edited by harmless_kittens, 29 January 2016 - 08:55 AM.

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#2
Arkhaun

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dont fred about it maing, just brawler on and stay salty


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#3
Trigary

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Maybe it's not the best way, but what would you think if the first you saw on the forums was that every new topic is spammed?

Maybe they should lower the barriers a bit, but spammers annoy more people than the new person himself, and cleaning up after the spammer takes time, too.



#4
Nept

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The restrictions were prompted by some massive spamming issues.  They could lower the 5-post condition, I think, but moderator approval's an important part of spam protection.


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#5
harmless_kittens

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I guess I assumed that in addition to the "ban" feature there is also a "delete all their posts" feature for moderators.  If instead, as you say, you would need to delete each and every spammed post separately, then I can see how tedious that would be.

 

Like I said, I'm just worried that other new players are so turned off by these restrictions that they don't ask their questions, get discouraged, and then just quit and move on to another game.



#6
CounterlogicMan

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Maybe it is time to bring in some community volunteers to shore up the forum moderator team.


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#7
Amidatelion

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You've got a kid, right?

 

Google "shotgun hand gore" and see if you'd like him to see it, assuming the two of you were online at 8am. 

 

Because then the two moderators this forum seems have would be asleep in their timezone. The ability to delete all posts is irrelevant when you're not awake to catch them.


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#8
hellc9943

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You've got a kid, right?

 

Google "shotgun hand gore" and see if you'd like him to see it, assuming the two of you were online at 8am. 

And I thought you were gonna say giving community members modding rights would be like handing a shotgun to a kid.


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#9
CraftyDus

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Maybe it is time to bring in some community volunteers to shore up the forum moderator team.

 

 I would like to nominate ss396. He's never been the same since he was passed over for it on the last forums.


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#10
PoopSlinger

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Discussing forum rules or moderator action can get you rebanned or put in moderator queue.  Watch out kittens, it happened to me...


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Come on Crafty, you have been officially called out on your lies. Your online reputation is at stake here, this is just like an old school street race running for pink slips. Its run what you brung and hope its enough. Put up or shut the fuzzy bunny up.


#11
Flight1ess

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Protection from spammers is nice but I think we could use moderators at different time zones too


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It makes more sense as you get into it ;D

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#12
_incitatus

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Yeah, the restrictions are a necessary evil due to spam and gore pics from trolls.  It would obviously be better if moderator approval happened more quickly, but as we know Reloaded is working with a limited staff who are most likely wearing several different hats.

 

Some of us are not very happy with the way the community members have been handled in the past, but the game is here and the core Hawken community is made up of some of the nicest, most helpful people I've met on the internet.


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#13
ticklemyiguana

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Some of us are not very happy with the way the community members have been handled in the past, but the game is here and the core Hawken community is made up of some of the nicest, most helpful people I've met on the internet.

u suk


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#14
ATX22

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Maybe it is time to bring in some community volunteers to shore up the forum moderator team.

 

Please no.  Been done before, didn't exactly end well.



#15
Trigary

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I think it's a cheap and very effective way if you do it right. For example, if 5 different moderator helpers mark a post as "should be removed ASAP", the post gets removed. Or if 8 helpers mark a person as a spammer, the person gets suspended. Moderators will be able to overwrite these when they come online. If a helper marks a post/person and he is clearly wrong, he will lose his helper status. Maybe with different actions and with a protest system for the suspect it would work, but making this system isn't easy I guess... But it would work if the helpers would have to follow strict rules :)



#16
Draigun

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I don't know what plugins are available for IP Board, but there has to be a better way of going about the new user registration process and experience. I'm sure Reloaded's whole intention is that the community is small enough for the current spam protection method to be deemed the "best" method. I do believe this was the right decision in all honesty for short-term spam protection; but for the game to grow, as OP mentioned, it's going to be outright impossible to encourage community discussion with these limiting barriers.

 

Something needs to be done, especially when they release an update over Steam. It's also worth noting that this community is the primary reason why Hawken survived development hell for so long. That fact still continues to this day in my opinion, even with Reloaded taking the reins back in early 2015.

 

New user feedback is a sight to behold on today's forum, and even more so with the sign-up process.


Edited by Draigun, 29 January 2016 - 12:23 PM.

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#17
ATX22

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I think it's a cheap and very effective way if you do it right. For example, if 5 different moderator helpers mark a post as "should be removed ASAP", the post gets removed. Or if 8 helpers mark a person as a spammer, the person gets suspended. Moderators will be able to overwrite these when they come online. If a helper marks a post/person and he is clearly wrong, he will lose his helper status. Maybe with different actions and with a protest system for the suspect it would work, but making this system isn't easy I guess... But it would work if the helpers would have to follow strict rules :)

 

Is such a consensus based moderation voting system even baked into IP.board?  This sounds like doing more work to avoid work that they should already be doing.  Like I said, the community moderators thing has been done before.  It was a bad idea then, still a bad idea now.  If they want to pull this stunt on unofficial forums, who cares.  This is the official Reloaded Hawken forums, if they can't properly maintain this place, then maybe they need to re-assess the current "need" for it.  It's not like this is a busy message board to begin with.



#18
ticklemyiguana

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Is such a consensus based moderation voting system even baked into IP.board?  This sounds like doing more work to avoid work that they should already be doing.  Like I said, the community moderators thing has been done before.  It was a bad idea then, still a bad idea now.  If they want to pull this stunt on unofficial forums, who cares.  This is the official Reloaded Hawken forums, if they can't properly maintain this place, then maybe they need to re-assess the current "need" for it.  It's not like this is a busy message board to begin with.


Yeah so why not play around with it if it isn't needed?

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#19
gArphEus

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OK, I'll try to be delicate about this, and I apologize if I put this in the wrong forum.

 

As you saw from my previous thread, my son and I are still new players, and we have a long way to go, but we do enjoy the game (although I personally wish it was less "twitch".)  Personally, as a father concerned about the content of games, I'm happy we found a game without foul language and blood/guts all over the place.

 

But my concern is with the site's "welcome" to this forum itself.  I was frankly surprised how long and tedious it was to get anything posted in a prompt manner.  As you may know, someone new to this forum can make ONE post per day here, AND that one post needs to be approved by a moderator before it will show up, AND this process needs to be repeated FIVE times before you are, like I am now, "free at last".

 

Other Wikis/Forums I have joined just list their rules, warning that we'll be banned if we violate them, but they let us start to post and ask questions immediately.  Not trying to be rude here, but it seemed a little extreme for someone like myself to automatically be viewed with such skepticism, like my hand needs to be held and someone needs to look over my shoulder for the first several days.  And as far as waiting for a moderator to approve each post, this did not happen quickly (at least not for an impatient person like myself).  Sometimes it was waiting over 24 hours per post.  The delay/lag was so impactful that in my original thread you "guys" wondered if I was still here, because I had not responded to the great advice you were offering.  I WAS here and trying to respond, but it just took forever for you to see it.

 

Well, I'm here now, and hopefully this post won't get me into trouble, so it's not an issue for ME anymore.  BUT HERE IS WHY I BRING THIS UP:  I've seen a lot of threads where people are complaining about how many have left the game and how important it is to get (and keep) new players like my son and I.  I fully agree.  And this is why I suggest that the "new member" standards for this forum be relaxed.  I am not a patient person by nature, and it was tempted to give up asking my questions on these forums because I was so limited.  I GUARANTEE that there are other people out there who had some questions to ask, but could not tolerate these new member restrictions.  And to me, it is bad for the game if new players don't have a convenient way to ask all the questions they want to, and to get quick answers.

 

Thanks for listening :)

 

Just want to remind you, that new players can also ask questions via lobby chat, ingame chat, and even via private chat with guys on the buddylist. I got a lot of help this way, and returned that help also to others many times. My offer's still valid - feel free to add me to your buddylist, and send me your questions via pm, and I'll answer them asap.

 

Regards, gArphEus



#20
TheButtSatisfier

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Please no.  Been done before, didn't exactly end well.

 

Assuming that there aren't prohibitive technical limitations, I think that there are some things that community moderators could be useful for - like reviewing posts from new members to help shorten the turnaround time to allow them on post freely. There isn't a lot of room for abuse if you limit their responsibilities.


Edited by TheButtSatisfier, 29 January 2016 - 02:51 PM.

8) Tech in the streets, Brawler in the sheets (8


#21
SS396

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Maybe it is time to bring in some community volunteers to shore up the forum moderator team.


No.

Reloaded has plenty of employees available that simply need to check in more often and push things through the system since one employee checking every 24 hours is not fast enough.

I would like to nominate ss396. He's never been the same since he was passed over for it on the last forums.


You are really on your way of becoming a pathological liar, how many lies is that now? I wonder what stories you'll make up next. You are almost at Amids level of fiction.

I was never passed over for it, no one in that secret group was ever passed over for anything cept maybe AJK but that was a separate issue. I simply didn't accept the opportunity when it was presented. Everyone that had special access was asked in a private forum thread if they'd like to help out when ZamboniChaos notified us that all the other 3rd party mod contracts were not being renewed. For that time it was ZC only doing all the moderating and spam removal and it was quite a lot of work for him, he needed some help. A few people accepted, and many others did the same as I did. I talked with ZC about it in private for quite a while. I thought about it, but I knew I'd get pissed and abuse the authority and end up compromising my position in that group, and I wasn't willing to give that up for anything, not to mention it was essentially having to do a bunch of work for free.

So quit lying Crafty. You were not a part of that secret group so I don't understand why you think you actually know enough about what went on in the private area on the forums and in the private channel on IRC, but go ahead and ask others that were in that group and they will tell you the same thing.

I guess I assumed that in addition to the "ban" feature there is also a "delete all their posts" feature for moderators.  If instead, as you say, you would need to delete each and every spammed post separately, then I can see how tedious that would be.


There is a delete all button that nukes all of a users posts, but the issue is the time between said posting and the time of nuking. Like you said, if it took your posts 24 hours or longer to get through the system, then those spam posts are going to take just as long annoying everyone until they are nuked. 

Like I said, I'm just worried that other new players are so turned off by these restrictions that they don't ask their questions, get discouraged, and then just quit and move on to another game.


I don't think this is the issue at all. I think more new users are turned away when they come to the forums and post, and the veterans jump down their throats and tell them how shitty their suggestions and ideas are. That situation happens more than new players posting a question and it taking 24 hours to post and never getting answered. Just take a look at the suggestions area for examples of such great behavior.

As far as the issue with approving posts, harmless_kittens, it sucks but these restrictions are required.

There have been ongoing spambot attacks that are unrelenting for years One spambot will fill the entire forum with posts in no time at all. Lately some of the mentioned abuse has been disgruntled player(s) passing the 5 post restriction and then posting gore shock images trying to make some sort of vigilante statement, but the majority of it in the past is random spam in some form of asian text, or advertisements for Babaji and his vashikaran mantra. Trust us, when unmoderated the forums are filled with garbage in no time, current threads become buried. I'm sure if Tiggs wanted to show us how much of her work is nuking this sort of activity she would, I think a few people might be surprised.

TLDR, What I think needs to happen is more Reloaded employees need to check on things more often and push things through the system.

[DELETED]

 

fuzzy bunny you CZeroFive 


#22
crockrocket

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 ZamboniChaos notified us that all the other 3rd party mod contracts were not being renewed. 

 

Hmm early warning sign perhaps?


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Salvage: An Idea to Stop Leavers

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[14:31] <Crafty> I know that in my balls
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#23
SS396

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Hmm early warning sign perhaps?


There were literally hundreds of early warning signs now that you look back on all that transpired. From Meteor downsizing the first time in 2012, laying off Scapes and making ZC the community manager, to ADH laying off pretty much the entire art department in 2013, but I don't think anybody really looked at the specific moment of mod contracts as something like a sign of Hawkens impending doom. It was more just the thought of a company trying to save a few bucks here and there by either looking for a cheaper company to use for 3rd party moderating or perhaps doing it themselves. We didn't really question them in that decision, most of us just felt sorry for ZC having to check in on the forums as much as he was. Remember there was still like half a year of time between not renewing the 3rd party mods contract and the complete silence from ADH later on. So really I don't think anyone expected what was to come even when they saw all the previous signs, we were all very surprised when the day came the friends we had grown accustomed to talking to on a daily basis quit responding.
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fuzzy bunny you CZeroFive 


#24
crockrocket

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There were literally hundreds of early warning signs now that you look back on all that transpired. From Meteor downsizing the first time in 2012, laying off Scapes and making ZC the community manager, to ADH laying off pretty much the entire art department in 2013, but I don't think anybody really looked at the specific moment of mod contracts as something like a sign of Hawkens impending doom. It was more just the thought of a company trying to save a few bucks here and there by either looking for a cheaper company to use for 3rd party moderating or perhaps doing it themselves. We didn't really question them in that decision, most of us just felt sorry for ZC having to check in on the forums as much as he was. Remember there was still like half a year of time between not renewing the 3rd party mods contract and the complete silence from ADH later on. So really I don't think anyone expected what was to come even when they saw all the previous signs, we were all very surprised when the day came the friends we had grown accustomed to talking to on a daily basis quit responding.

 

Yeah hind-sight is 20-20. It seems so obvious now, but I'm sure it wasn't at the time. Hopefully we don't get fooled twice.


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Salvage: An Idea to Stop Leavers

Player Retention & Howken

 

[14:31] <Crafty> I know that in my balls
[14:32] <Crafty> hawken is unlike anything Ive played

 

 


#25
SS396

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Yeah hind-sight is 20-20. It seems so obvious now, but I'm sure it wasn't at the time. Hopefully we don't get fooled twice.


Well, ironically there seems to be the same sort of pattern going on. At least when it comes to taking longer and longer between news and announcements. In the beginning Josh seemed really stoked about Hawken but I haven't seen a genuine post from him in months. He used to take time and stream fairly frequently, and we at least got pretty graphs to look at regularly. Whens the last time a minor change was made to the game? (Like MMR unlocking or turret buffs are the latest things that come to my mind)

I guess that new car smell really leaves the car pretty fast these days. I guess Hawken will always be an Edsel.

[DELETED]

 

fuzzy bunny you CZeroFive 


#26
ATX22

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Assuming that there aren't prohibitive technical limitations, I think that there are some things that community moderators could be useful for - like reviewing posts from new members to help shorten the turnaround time to allow them on post freely. There isn't a lot of room for abuse if you limit their responsibilities.

 

Here's my take: If these boards were actually so busy that it would be prohibitive for one company to hire enough people to moderate it, that'd be one thing.  You'd have ACTIVE paid administrators working who could quickly react to people abusing their moderator privileges.  The Hawken forums aren't busy and the one or more people tasked with administrating this message board are apparently taking their time to getting around to performing said duties (current administrators here may be administrators on more than the Hawken boards or have other work that's more important, dunno).  If it's taking forever and a day for them to get around to support tickets and administrative tasks, then the last thing I'd want is for them to "eventually" get around to policing any moderators who start acting out.

 

If it's absolutely necessary, as in Reloaded just doesn't want to maintain their message board, at the very least, I'd use moderator specific accounts (moderator1, moderator2, etc. etc.) and forbid said moderators from letting anyone else know that they are a moderator (loss of moderator privileges and temp forum ban for infraction, if not more).  We don't need another popularity contest among a bunch man children on a gaming forum along with people being fearful of disagreement with a moderator unless they wish to risk suffering their wrath.

 

 

Yeah so why not play around with it if it isn't needed?

 

 

Because it reflects poorly on a company that doesn't take proper care of it's one medium used to keep in touch with it's customers.  If Reloaded is going to neglect their message board because they don't think it's needed, then maybe they should just shut it down until they change their minds.  Either way, it makes the appearance that they flat out don't care.


Edited by ATX22, 29 January 2016 - 10:03 PM.


#27
ticklemyiguana

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Because it reflects poorly on a company that doesn't take proper care of it's one medium used to keep in touch with it's customers.  If Reloaded is going to neglect their message board because they don't think it's needed, then maybe they should just shut it down until they change their minds.  Either way, it makes the appearance that they flat out don't care.

But if they don't care and the community does but the forums aren't needed and they're still up, what's the problem with the community that cares assisting in moderating the unnecessary forum?


Spoiler

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#28
ATX22

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But if they don't care and the community does but the forums aren't needed and they're still up, what's the problem with the community that cares assisting in moderating the unnecessary forum?

 

If Reloaded doesn't care, all the more reason not to.  It's be tried before, it resulted in abuse of powers, and having another fairly absent owner makes a repeat of the last attempt all the more likely.



#29
ticklemyiguana

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If Reloaded doesn't care, all the more reason not to.  It's be tried before, it resulted in abuse of powers, and having another fairly absent owner makes a repeat of the last attempt all the more likely.

Neglect isn't abuse? Enforcing rules only when you feel like it isn't abusive?

 

And I keep hearing of these abuses of powers from the past but every time I do, people fail to point them out in a relevant or contextual manner.  No one ever talks about them with any intelligence - similar to the vote kick issue. People toss it up to "It can be abuuuuuuuuused!!!!" and then they say nothing until the opportunity to say the word "abuuuuuuuuuse!" comes up again.

 

The abuses experienced in my history stemmed from "moderators" only having an on-off off only switch for people's accounts with no other tools to use, in a scenario where the previous developers literally didn't exist.


Edited by ticklemyiguana, 30 January 2016 - 01:22 PM.

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#30
ATX22

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Neglect isn't abuse? Enforcing rules only when you feel like it isn't abusive?

 

And I keep hearing of these abuses of powers from the past but every time I do, people fail to point them out in a relevant or contextual manner.  No one ever talks about them with any intelligence - similar to the vote kick issue. People toss it up to "It can be abuuuuuuuuused!!!!" and then they say nothing until the opportunity to say the word "abuuuuuuuuuse!" comes up again.

 

The abuses experienced in my history stemmed from "moderators" only having an on-off switch for people's accounts with no other tools to use, in a scenario where the previous developers literally didn't exist.

 

I didn't keep record of all the specifics of what was done in the old forums.  I do remember certain moderator(s) marking people as spammers effectively banning them from posting on the forums (no ADH staff to fix things).  Rule "enforcement" at the time would vary from person to person when it came to who would get punished.  If Reloaded were to pull in community moderators, they would have the same pool of people to pull from that ADH did, maybe a condensed version of that pool.. but it's the same people here now that have been around since before "the great silence".  Also, it's not been that long ago where a good number of "upstanding" community members got hit with temp bans for protesting rule enforcement on these forums since Reloaded took over.

 

That's my opinion, I'm sticking to it (and this is getting silly), but it's not like it matters; Reloaded staff are going to do what Reloaded staff are going to do, they own this place and the decision is theirs.  I only hope they don't need our input on how to moderator their own message board since THEY are the professionals.


Edited by ATX22, 30 January 2016 - 06:52 AM.


#31
KejiGoto

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The abuses experienced in my history stemmed from "moderators" only having an on-off switch for people's accounts with no other tools to use, in a scenario where the previous developers literally didn't exist.

 

The problem wasn't so much an "off/on" switch but rather the ability to flag someone's account as a spam account. The original setup was simply approving posts from new accounts regardless of their content so long as it wasn't spam. Any accounts marked as spam lost their ability to post and needed to be reviewed by someone higher up the chain (as in not a community member) for anything else to happen to that account otherwise it stayed marked as spam and can't post. This system worked great until everyone lost their job, none of this was communicated to the community, and suddenly people who were supposed to only be dealing with spam were the only ones capable of doing any kind of policing on the forums because everyone else above them was gone. 

 

All these issues from abuse came from this point in time when there was no development team and it was pretty much "end of days" time. It wasn't like as soon as Adhesive and Zamboni Chaos weren't looking people went nuts and started doing whatever they pleased. 

 

I'm not condoning everything that happened during this period but glad to see someone trying to bring context to what was going on and not just acting like this was just an abuse of power and nothing more because people can't handle power or something else along those lines.



#32
CraftyDus

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giving hawken kids forum mod is a really stupid idea

of course the bs that went on was GOING to happen...I called it the day they gave them those privelages

 

The early hawken players always had this weird infatuation with dev attention and a strange obsession with trying to confer it with status.

It still suffers to some degree from that. It has been the source of a lot of it's neurosis.

 

You don't let them moderate their community forums, it will always end poorly.


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#33
SS396

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giving hawken kids forum mod is a really stupid idea
of course the bs that went on was GOING to happen...I called it the day they gave them those privelages


Thats funny, everyone in the group was given special privileges on the forums as early as Feb 2013. There was never an issue until ADH themselves wasn't around to police the forums anymore. Thats when the people that cared enough decided to take things into their own hands and try to handle it by whatever means they could, when there were no moderators around. So what you called isn't what actually happened, but nice try.

The early hawken players always had this weird infatuation with dev attention and a strange obsession with trying to confer it with status.
It still suffers to some degree from that. It has been the source of a lot of it's neurosis.
 
You don't let them moderate their community forums, it will always end poorly.


It was an honor being personally invited by the developers to be in a group of dedicated players that the developers used to gather useful information about the direction of the game. Sorry you weren't recognized as useful by the developers for you own effort in game or on the forums.
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#34
CraftyDus

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We've all heard how no one could stand your behavior in that secret section of the forums in 2012, and how nutty you were there.

Thank goodness you are left to haunt nothing but the general discussions of a game community busy playing a game you no longer do.

EOC Raider, Bolt Pred, Rev Gl Gren, EOC Infil, All the Reapers, Father, Expert in Guitar Kung Fu, and Founder of TPG Hawken

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#35
ATX22

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deja vu



#36
Trigary

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Just telling you, a lot of us don't play this game anymore, at least not that often. Maybe he wants to help make this game playable again?



#37
SS396

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We've all heard how no one could stand your behavior in that secret section of the forums in 2012, and how nutty you were there.

Thank goodness you are left to haunt nothing but the general discussions of a game community busy playing a game you no longer do.


Considering that the private area didn't start until Feb 2013, I'm going to have to say you are talking out of your ass again. :rolleyes:   Damn dude, this is like the 3rd time this thread alone you have lied. I even provided you with the date in a previous post and you still couldn't even come up with a legit believable story to work with. You fail miserably.
 

 

Lets put a little wager on this Crafty.  If I can prove that I've played Hawken at all this year (2016), you leave Hawken for good FOREVER (in game and the forums), and if you can prove that I haven't played Hawken this year, I'll leave for good FOREVER (in game and on the forums).  Sound like a deal or are you a liar with no proof?  

 

My information is clearly on my steam profile page of when the last time I loaded Hawken up, and since it was before Jan 31 2016 at 0:00 hours there shouldn't be any tampering going on that would affect the outcome of the proof.  I also have logfiles from the game itself.

 

So, put your money where your blow gut mouth is and lets settle this libel once and for all.


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#38
ATX22

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This is going to escalate to the point that an admin is going to have to step in... isn't it...  :rolleyes:



#39
SS396

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This is going to escalate to the point that an admin is going to have to step in... isn't it...  :rolleyes:

 

Nope, its finished cause Crafty is a chickenshit and has no proof to backup his lies.


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#40
Dixie_Chick

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So much better than reading a book!




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