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#1
Tavanaka

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So, it's been a long, long time since I last played Hawken. I started playing in the very beginning, in the betaest of betas, years ago, and Hawken filled that little void in my heart reserved for a customizable mech shooter. Unfortunately, the game has not been as originally advertised for a while now, and it looks like it's going to keep going down that road. As a caveat, before I continue: Again, I have not played in months, and I will readily admit that nostalgia probably colors a lot of my opinions on the direction of the game. I hope my opinion is still considered, however.

 

I grew up with Mechwarrior/Battletech, Armored Core (very different kind of mechs,) and for a while, I even put my faith in Chromehounds, a game that I wish so badly had gotten the praise and sales it deserved. So when Hawken was first revealed, I was thrilled. Then I played it, and I was hooked. The visual customization was fairly standard, but appreciable. The tech point mechanic was fantastic. Every modification was almost negligible, but still just enough to be felt in-game. The speed of the mechs was absolutely refreshing, like a perfect balance between the thundering footfalls of Mechwarrior's titans, and the insane breakneck pace of Armored Core's Gundams on coke.

 

And then there were the new things Hawken brought to the table. Instead of the usual fare of desolated, bare open battlefields, we pilots were funneled into cities, complexes, forests. Our battlefields make us giant mice in a giant, fully-realized maze, littered with detail, ample cover, and numerous chances to really make the vertical capabilities of our mechs count. Not to mention the gorgeous skyboxes and the animations therein that frequently remind us that yes, we're in a war, and everybody's losing. I remember the first time siege mode and missile assault were introduced. I loaded up that barebones geometry and played a few entertaining rounds of what felt like your simple territories gametype. Then the finished build was released, and those points we were capturing actually mattered for something, and really drove home the scope of the game. We weren't just random schmucks in speedy rustbuckets anymore- those enormous ships, high above us, that we were trying to defend, they were fighting the war just as much as we were. In Hawken, we are constantly reminded that we are all part of something bigger. That the world isn't over yet.

 

And the cockpits. Does anybody else remember the old cockpits? The grunge, the grime, the sheer cobbled-together-ness of everything? Hawken managed to truly present a war-torn, devastated world falling apart without relying on any barren, empty swaths of desert or volcanic mountains, staples of a genre that has been dying for years. It was the breath of fresh air that we sorely needed.

 

I know I'm getting overly poetic, here, but I'm trying to make a point. If nothing else, Hawken is unique not for its mechanics but for its setting. For the way it realizes that setting. There is, in my search, nothing else like it out there. No other mech game that manages to narrow the scope, yet broaden the weight behind our encounters. There is something really special here, which is why it kills me that I've had to shelve it for so long.

 

I'm not really sure when the game started to decline, but I remember the big moment it hit me was when the cockpits changed. Chronologically, I have things a little confused, but I remember constant futzing around with the tech point system, with mech stats, with player rank and matchmaking- all things one should expect in a beta. But then those beautiful, grimy shitbuckets we got to sit in went away, and were replaced with some sleek, clean nonsense that bore no sensible geometry to half of the mechs we piloted. This, to me, was the Big Red Flag. Because instead of gaining something with a change, we lost a lot. Prior to the cockpit UI change, we had different cockpits for each tier of mech; a subtle but appreciated touch that added to the charm and feel of what we were piloting. They might have even been different for each individual mech, I can't remember. The point is that we lost a massive amount of immersion with this change, not just aesthetically with the change in textures but with the sheer homogenization of the cockpit styles as a whole. I believe the reason for this had something to do with VR, but lets be honest- they could have prepped the game for virtual reality without downgrading the experience. What did the devs do in response to this loss of immersion? Add bobbleheads.

 

And don't get me started on that health bar. I already rambled about that unreadable seizure of red blue and yellow years ago. Suffice it to say, the UI update was, at least for me, a downgrade in quick coherency as well.

 

Around the same time as the UI update, the nuances of the tech point feature were thrown out the window as well. The devs literally just up and said, "we can't figure out balance, so we're going to stop trying." While it's respectable to admit defeat, especially on something so complicated, this was death knell number two. Over the next several months, and subsequent updates and hotfixes, I watched what was a gem, a literal gem, albeit unpolished, get reduced into a reskin of a modern FPS. Ironically, this was happening while mainstream FPSes were embracing and continue to embrace more and more complicated and intricate customization and immersion. That's not to say Hawken is dead or like any other game, it clearly isn't, and I wouldn't be making this post if I thought these things couldn't be reversed or changed. But somewhere along the line, nuance, depth and player choice were systematically compressed into a very limited range of features. This has hurt the game immensely, in my eyes. I believe TTK was dropped at some point during this process as well.

 

So why am I making this post? Because, quite frankly, I'm disappointed, and I'm hoping somebody will listen. I was really, really excited when I heard Hawken got a new developer, one that was actually updating and seemed to be tweaking a lot of the core of the game, based off of what they hinted at in their blogposts. Like so many others, I'm sure, my head filled with thoughts of the glory days of Hawken and the resurgence of a genre ready to be taken off life support. I was thrilled. I even reinstalled the game, for a while, though eventually I couldn't get past the constant reminders that the game was a ghost of its former self.

 

So imagine my reaction, when I hear that after all this time, all these hopes and dreams, that the "big update" we all hoped was coming, that we all waited on with baited breath for over a year was... console ports. Not only that, but that the current game plan is to leave the PC version relatively untouched and simply add content. This is done under the guise of preserving what the devs call, "Classic Hawken."

 

I played Classic Hawken. I played it years ago, and it had a breadth of customization and immersion that rivaled and in some cases even exceeded all other options on the market. Classic Hawken had intricate stat customization, detailed (if limited) cosmetics, weapon choice, and a consistent, dirty aesthetic that was everywhere. The game has simply not been Classic Hawken for years now. It's been a watered-down, drowning corpse in the longest death throes for an IP I've ever seen. And there's a reason for that.

 

I want to have faith in the new developers, I do, especially since as far as I can tell there simply are no other options for this genre. Mechwarrior Online is a money-grabbing joke, M.A.V. is gradually losing its promise, and Titanfall is... well, it's not really a mech game. Also, Origin. But with this recent update my hopes are not very high. The only planned changes to the core of the game that I've seen, besides optimization and menu UI, have been the removal of the third weapon choice and chassis customization. This is the exact opposite direction Hawken should be going in. You guys have something beautiful here, with all this opportunity for growth, and you're turning it into a Frankenstein's monster of Call of Duty and TF2/Overwatch with a mech skin.

 

And that's all well and good, and I'm sure that game will be great. But it's not Hawken. I remember Hawken. And the mech genre sorely needs the real Hawken back.


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#2
harmless_kittens

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OK


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#3
OdinTheWise

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can i get a TL:DR because no one wants to read that fuzzy bunny


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#4
Siamenis

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can i get a TL:DR because no one wants to read that fuzzy bunny

They miss the Alpha days of Hawken.



#5
Silverfire

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can i get a TL:DR because no one wants to read that fuzzy bunny


He wants old Hawken

The days of 7 second EMP and stunlock and fuel dodge and pointless tech tree that was only worth investing movement and old HUD that doesn't exist anymore

New Hawken is for cod kiddies as if it actually were because new Hawken is too hard for cod kiddies.
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#6
Hyginos

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sooooo drink?


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MFW Howken

 

My post count is neat.


#7
WmMoneyFrmMissouri

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I read it and as a hardcore mech warrior player for years, he'll over a decade, who was brought to this game trying to scratch the MW itch.... It has been a beautiful find. Temper your Dev expectations for when the console product is released. This game was essentially the California condor of online fps. It was pretty much almost extinct and its managed to hold on and seems now is on the cusp of a revival. The reality is the game plays for the most part fine right now and there is a ton of different mechs/load outs to keep someone refreshed for years. I've found some very fun robros here that I love playing and even the jerks can be a tough fight from time to time. Enjoy it for what it is: a free game that can be as casusl or as complicated as you want it to be. Welcome back.

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#8
DemitronPrime

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I read it and as a hardcore mech warrior player for years, he'll over a decade, who was brought to this game trying to scratch the MW itch.... It has been a beautiful find. Temper your Dev expectations for when the console product is released. This game was essentially the California condor of online fps. It was pretty much almost extinct and its managed to hold on and seems now is on the cusp of a revival. The reality is the game plays for the most part fine right now and there is a ton of different mechs/load outs to keep someone refreshed for years. I've found some very fun robros here that I love playing and even the jerks can be a tough fight from time to time. Enjoy it for what it is: a free game that can be as casusl or as complicated as you want it to be. Welcome back.

 

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got dem eye bout him...

 

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Puck Flinging-Nade Lobbing-Troll Tech

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#9
WmMoneyFrmMissouri

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That's right. I've killed women and children. I've killed just about everything that walks or crawled at one time or another. And I'm here to kill you, Little Bill, for what you did to Ned!
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#10
TheButtSatisfier

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sniiiiiiiiiiiiiiip

 

It's apparent that you actually care about the topic(s) in your post given its length, so in the context of you giving a damn, I respect that.

 

Since you've been gone a while, I'll fill you in on what you've missed:

  • The new developers acquired Hawken, we came back to play it, they engaged us for a while, then went quiet for almost a year (someone correct me here). During this time they edited turret damage and health values by a teeny bit (!!!) and some backend stuff. A little while ago we found evidence that Hawken was going to consoles. A few days later, they confirmed that.
  • We have seen a lot of posts that contain the same sentiment and points that you've made. So many, in fact, that we've made a drinking game out of it. Your post qualifies for 1 shot. Our livers work overdrive around here.

 

I've said this so you don't get offended when just about nobody puts the same love in their response as you've put in your OP. It's not because we hate you, and it's only partially because we're unfriendly and restless, but it's mostly because every one of us has spent effort addressing your points before. It's like a forum meme now.

 

I personally blame myself for this shortcoming of ours, because I believe that if I updated the Hawken wiki with librarian-level cited sources for every argument that floated through this forum, then I would only have to link you, our dear new forum member, to that very wiki topic containing all the pros and cons that we have discussed that aren't "ayyy lmao noob" so that you may bask in our glory and be educated.

 

Now, that said, if you want constructive feedback then give us some succinct bullet points to work with.


Edited by TheButtSatisfier, 28 June 2016 - 06:54 AM.

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8) Tech in the streets, Brawler in the sheets (8


#11
6ixxer

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This is the exact opposite direction Hawken should be going in.

You mean turning it into a viable ongoing game offends you? because you like a busted buggy low pop game that is slowly dieing?

And that's all well and good, and I'm sure that game will be great. But it's not Hawken. I remember Hawken. And the mech genre sorely needs the real Hawken back.

You mean you are sore.
Reloaded owns Hawken and can do with it what they wish. Id rather see it change than die.

<3 Hawken

Cheers,
6ixxer
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#12
6ixxer

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Let me point out one decision by reloaded that is a good one despite the whinging it will create.

 

More mechs with fewer weapons

 

Servers cost money to run.

A free to play game NEEDS microtransactions.

The biggest monetization that Hawken gets is from new mechs.

If there are few mechs with a broad ability due to changeable primaries it greatly limits the monetization.

Having to grind 30+ mechs takes much longer than grinding 12 so people who are lazy will buy them with good old cash.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm glad I get my grandfathered mechs, but I paid money for them (Nemesis bundle on day 1 of Steam) and would be sad to lose my investment.


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#13
Flifang

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You know fren, I remember when the patch that sacked tuning went up and I couldn't play my now slightly slower brawler the same for months. I literally could not play it the same after a very minor movement speed and health increase. But even with me playing pretty consistently (for the most part) after that, it only took me a few months to adjust. I too, miss the old days sometimes but I think that's just nostalgia doing its magic.

 

If you truly have been gone for as long as you say I think you could easily get into the groove of things again, and maybe even give this brand new and pretty alien in comparison game a chance again. This may not be the old hawken, but it's still holding a pretty cool niche even just in the mech game genera.

 

Even if you don't play again, spread the word. Let hawken become an unstoppable tide upon the game market.

*cackles maniacally* 



#14
deidarall

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Personally I view a lot of the "old" feel of hawken being right derped by the item system put in place. 

 

 

Instead of one item that takes 20-45 second to recharge, so ya sort of wish to time it, and all that people just spit out items like candy.

 

Also stuff like air compress, and internals, and better air dynamics for all mechs in general that came later on really messed up the ground game of hawken, A lot of people push dat space bar during fights now and that is pretty different (And silly in my view).  

 

He wants old Hawken

The days of 7 second EMP and stunlock and fuel dodge and pointless tech tree that was only worth investing movement and old HUD that doesn't exist anymore

New Hawken is for cod kiddies as if it actually were because new Hawken is too hard for cod kiddies. 

 

Look this "new" version of hawken pisses me off and is no better if not worse than  the "old" hawken (and all those issues you spoke off were fixed aside from the tech tree which they put no effort into considering it was to be replaced.... and ended up not being replaced..... *cough*) 

 

When I see people slide up slopes like crazy for almost no cost due to fuel dodge (Looks silly btw), or spit out 3 orbs, or 3 of whatever item, I hate it. Honestly the days before the ascension update without the 3 item system, and other such factors just made more sense, there was no sliding up and down stuff like random cause of a item, no stunlock either, and no item spam. It was a balance before the old devs ran into ascension and the work they put into the game became more and more degraded more and more quickly. (Gimicks like the bobble heads, and G2 mechs are to a extent a representation of this) Also fuel dodge made sense, idc who says otherwise, it made the act of dodging more mindful and costly, and if you ran out of fuel it represented a lack of fighting down time that was required to both repair and recover. Now due to endless dodge, and other factors (Item spam orbs and certain internal item combos) There is very little inbetween fight down time, and it just feels mind numbingly simple to just keep going and going without having to care. 

 

Look point is I like the old but not ultra old days when hawken had less random issues. The ultra old days had a ton of issues, and in my view the state of the game now has a ton of issues, there was a sweet area in there that was left during ascension, and ascension is not horrid either it was just not perfected like the ultra old days game play turning into the old but not ultra old game play, as they polished the ultra old gameplay into the old but not as old gameplay with less issues such as lock and emp lasting so long and so forth. 

 

 

Ya dig? Basically a few "old" players that turn up say stuff like this, and I think it is due to them coming from that era of the game being polished compared to now in a manner of speaking, as the old devs got the pre-ascension gameplay with less and less particularities(there were still some ofc), and ascension was a step in a different direction that never had its chance to be fully realized in a reasonable way. (Low cost of air dodge for what it gave, air stuff being a sort of suddenly really simply way to keep distance and the difference in pacing internal and item combos brought on changed the game in massive regards while bringing a ton of particularities it was a step a way from a more polished system to go at a completely new system)

 

So ya I do not find it hard to relate to. :P


Edited by deidarall, 27 June 2016 - 08:29 PM.


#15
Mevaker

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To the OP, I am delighted to see that I am not the only pone that feels this way. Thank you, brother, This exactly



#16
ArchMech

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So ya I do not find it hard to relate to. :P

 

you found your tree bro!


don't mind me, i'm just on a crusade against humanity, by the end of my lifespan earth's population will be 8 billion+ trolls


#17
Xacius

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can i get a TL:DR because no one wants to read that fuzzy bunny

Another stimulating post from OdinTheWise.  

 

Snipped

I agree on mostly all of your points.  I too grew up with Mechwarrior and Armored Core.  I really miss the old cockpits... brought a bit of the immersion to the game for me.  Unfortunately, the game doesn't appear to be heading in the right direction.  The new developers are content with keeping the gameplay as more or less consistent with the current iteration.  I'd love to see some rollback options for users to mess with cockpits/UI, as well as a bit of a balance shift away from C classes, but that's probably asking too much.  Guess we'll wait and see.  


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#18
Onebullit

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He wants old Hawken

... fuel dodge...

Fuel dodge made the game more strategic. 


><(((((°> - - - - - - - - - - -  ><((°> ><((°> ><((°>

HAWKEN ---> hawken ---> hawken ---> RIP 2017

Hawken gameplay and funky fragmontages: Hawken playlist

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#19
Silverfire

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Fuel dodge made the game more strategic.


I really don't think it did. Slower!=more strategic. It just made so that a person at the end of an engagement was gimped and essentially screwed because he had no fuel to do anything. You didn't have a chance if a secondary attacker engaged. Fuel less dodge opened up more movement options for players, making the game better imo.

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#20
Xacius

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Fuel dodge made the game more strategic. 

Not really.  The fuel dodge added a small element of resource management.   Resource management doesn't innately add more strategy.   In the case of the fuel dodge, it simply limited your movement in longer fights.  To me, that's not more strategic.  



#21
-Tj-

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I really don't think it did. Slower!=more strategic. It just made so that a person at the end of an engagement was gimped and essentially screwed because he had no fuel to do anything. You didn't have a chance if a secondary attacker engaged. Fuel less dodge opened up more movement options for players, making the game better imo.


So pretty much what the Infiltrator cloak does now. Lol

#22
Onebullit

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I really don't think it did. Slower!=more strategic. It just made so that a person at the end of an engagement was gimped and essentially screwed because he had no fuel to do anything. You didn't have a chance if a secondary attacker engaged. Fuel less dodge opened up more movement options for players, making the game better imo.

 

Not really.  The fuel dodge added a small element of resource management.   Resource management doesn't innately add more strategy.   In the case of the fuel dodge, it simply limited your movement in longer fights.  To me, that's not more strategic.  

 

Not to me anyway.  Maybe when the TTK was higher, but with the current TTK, i don't see any issues with fuel dodge.

You had to think more, know when to engage, how to attack, how to approch certain situations.  What people do now is

go in, if they can't do anything, go out and boost away for a little while and use dodge to go from a to b. (wich looks stupid btw)

 

What happens 90% of the time in a duel. 

If your opponent gets hurt too much, they run away to press V (in my game) so they can repair.

Doesn't that slow the game down?

And that awful turn rate cap, what about that.


><(((((°> - - - - - - - - - - -  ><((°> ><((°> ><((°>

HAWKEN ---> hawken ---> hawken ---> RIP 2017

Hawken gameplay and funky fragmontages: Hawken playlist

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#23
Silverfire

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It's not even the strategic approach to how you engage. If anything, fuel less dodge helped encourage offensive gameplay when the game was already incredibly defensive. Yes the game is faster that way, but faster doesn't mean less strategic either.

Fuel dodge made it so, that regardless of how intelligently you approached a situation, even if you were flawless, you had no fuel to be able to take on any incoming threats and we're put at an immediate disadvantage which just isn't fair.

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#24
Tavanaka

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He wants old Hawken

The days of 7 second EMP and stunlock and fuel dodge and pointless tech tree that was only worth investing movement and old HUD that doesn't exist anymore

New Hawken is for cod kiddies as if it actually were because new Hawken is too hard for cod kiddies.

 

There were plenty of things broken with the original iterations of Hawken, before the massive changes that I listed. 7 second EMP was overkill, stunlock was unnecessary, and fuel dodge consumed too much of the bar, in my opinion. The tech tree also had some serious balancing issues that needed to be ironed out. At no point did I claim Hawken was perfect in its Alpha/Beta state. That's ridiculous. If it was, it wouldn't have been called such.

 

What I take issue with is the trend of "streamlining" the game by simply removing aspects that added depth but were imperfect, instead of refining them. Fuel dodge is a perfect example of this. It was an excellent form of on-the-fly resource management that forced you to not only set up advantageous encounters but to think critically during combat. It absolutely consumed too much of the bar as it was, but that didn't discredit the entire system. There were multiple avenues they could have taken, from changing consumption rate, to setting it on an exponential scale, or even tying the recharge rate to incoming fire, allowing a rapid, full recharge to all surviving mechs after x amount of seconds avoiding incoming fire. And these are just a couple of ideas I came up with off the cuff. Instead of spending time finding that "sweet spot," the devs just tossed out the mechanic entirely.

 

The same thing occurred with the tech tree. The devs couldn't figure out how to balance it, so they removed it entirely, watering down mech customization to cosmetics and picking a weapon, and also altering the stats of all the mechs in the process so that they began to fit more even more niche roles instead of being able to be tailored to certain preferences of the pilot. While this is fine for an arena shooter, it makes for a poor game in the mech genre, and it is disheartening as a fan of that genre and a fan of Hawken to see the approach of, "bin what requires too much effort" applied to a game that I had such high hopes for as a hybrid of two excellent genres of game.

 

We see more of this evidenced by the methodology described by the new devs. Eliminating the third weapon choice and chassis customization. Their idea of "progression" and "player choice" is moving towards macro, choosing from a wide array of pre-designed mechs, while effectively eliminating the niche and micro customization that is a staple of one of the two genres the product claims to be.

 

At no point am I asserting that Hawken is a bad game, even in its current iteration, or possibly even future ones. But it's not Classic Hawken and it's a very watered down mech game compared to other mech games out there. However, there aren't a lot of modern mech games out there and quite frankly the ones that do exist don't have the same charm, or do things I don't wish to support, like sell mechs for $60 a pop. (MWO)

 

My post isn't about how Hawken sucks. I don't like the way it plays now, which stings because I loved it and played it constantly before the major revisions, but that's just, like, my opinion, man. But I think we can keep some of the current feel without absolutely wiping out what made the original presentation so great and such an excellent hybrid of the mech and arena genres. I am dismayed because these devs are moving in the complete opposite direction from that, and irritated because the big reveal they hinted at for so long turned out to be console ports. I don't think I was the only one expecting another ascension-style update, with massive overhauls, only without completely destroying the game this time around.


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