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Discussion: Do we really need mech breathing in Hawken?

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#1
DerMax

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Hey guys,

 

I'd like to hear you out on whether or not we need the arbitrary crosshair movement that I call "mech breathing" in Hawken. In my opinion, it adds nothing of value to the game and is plain silly.

 

What do you think?


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#2
spinningchurro

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Leave it alone.

 

 

 

I may make a more detailed reply when I log in and check it out.



#3
comic_sans

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As I understand it. it's a boilerplate part of the engine and would take more work to remove than ignore or adapt.

 

Plus, the slight movement keeps your brain for recognizing that the mechs are essentially static models when standing still.


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#4
CrimsonKaim

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I like it, but as always: add options to turn certain things on/off.

 

When this will happen?

 

"soon"


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#5
CraftyDus

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it would ruin the immersive quality if we lost this crucial function


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#6
spinningchurro

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As I understand it. it's a boilerplate part of the engine and would take more work to remove than ignore or adapt.

 

Plus, the slight movement keeps your brain for recognizing that the mechs are essentially static models when standing still.

 

^ that's why i kept my mouth shut.  I was gonna say it's an idle animation, but if the mech model doesn't move from an outside perspective, then it's just the player's camera moving (or that's what's perceived, anyway).


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#7
BIsmuthZornisse

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As I understand it. it's a boilerplate part of the engine and would take more work to remove than ignore or adapt.

 

Plus, the slight movement keeps your brain for recognizing that the mechs are essentially static models when standing still.

What's the issue with being a "static model" when standing still? the mech's outside camera/targeting system should compensate for engine(as in the one inside the mech, not the game engine)-based vibrations to allow for steady aim.

 

If it's really that deeply embedded into the game engine, then we can wait with the removal. This is probably not a high priority issue. i can't say i even noticed it before.


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#8
comic_sans

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It does move a little, churro.  Watch the endgame lineup, it's easier to see there.

 

Also I just mean that the constant subtle movement keeps things from looking lazily animated, since it's very easy to tell when something is perfectly still or slightly moving in its environment, though it might not be quite appropriate here.  If you want a semi lore-friendly thought-workaround, just imagine it's the servos constantly adjusting themselves, going slightly past where they need to be, and compensating.


Edited by comic_sans, 05 May 2015 - 10:07 AM.

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#9
DerMax

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What I personally don't like about it is that it adds a bit of randomness to aiming. If it were just an idle animation, I would have no problem with it.



#10
WastingTime

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hadn't considered it but it does seem a little silly
but by the sound of the coding involved it may not be worth digging into


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#11
spinningchurro

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Ok here's my 2 cents that I wasn't gonna throw in yet:

 

Mechs, machines, are more precise and accurate than humans, so they shouldn't have idle movement and wavy aim, assuming the pilot is skilled enough.  However, they have much more mass than humans and therefore have a lot more intertia and momentum.  Camera shake simulates this, but that sucks to play with.  We want to play fast but I don't want to give up the feel and identity of piloting a mech to do so.  I feel that idle animation is ok since we don't have a more effective way to convey the sensation of piloting a heavy mech without sacrificing responsive gameplay.

 

 

Additionally, bipeds have a very difficult time remaining balanced regardless of being organic or inorganic.

 

 

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Bipedalism Movement

There are a number of states of movement commonly associated with bipedalism.

  1. Standing. Staying still on both legs. In most bipeds this is an active process, requiring constant adjustment of balance.

 

 

Take a look at PEDMAN from Boston Dynamics for example.



#12
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#13
BIsmuthZornisse

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Ok here's my 2 cents that I wasn't gonna throw in yet:

 

Mechs, machines, are more precise and accurate than humans, so they shouldn't have idle movement and wavy aim, assuming the pilot is skilled enough.  However, they have much more mass than humans and therefore have a lot more intertia and momentum.  Camera shake simulates this, but that sucks to play with.  We want to play fast but I don't want to give up the feel and identity of piloting a mech to do so.  I feel that idle animation is ok since we don't have a more effective way to convey the sensation of piloting a heavy mech without sacrificing responsive gameplay.

 

 

Additionally, bipeds have a very difficult time remaining balanced regardless of being organic or inorganic.

 

 

 

Take a look at PEDMAN from Boston Dynamics for example.

maybe its time to go with 4 legged mechs.

though, do the new devs even have a modeler/animator?


I have a lot of ideas and would like some feedback on them:

Suggestions for fixing things:

https://community.pl...of-suggestions/

Suggestions for new things:

https://community.pl...for-new-things/


#14
Amidatelion

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maybe its time to go with 4 legged mechs.

though, do the new devs even have a modeler/animator?

 

No.



#15
Nept

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Goddamn 1% elitists always trying to ruin mah immersive sim.


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#16
Pastorius

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HAWKEN lost tooo much immersion already. This seams like a little thing but for reasons expressed by comic_sans in his first reply, it would be missed. 


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#17
Neraste

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This breathing like movement is completely unlikely, otherwise it is sign of really bad automatic control.

 

But... This, with the vague Human form of mechs, it makes them somewhat cute, I think, and I totally love it.


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#18
ThirdEyE

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Do you mean the slight movement while standing still, or the reticle movement as you move?


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#19
DerMax

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Do you mean the slight movement while standing still, or the reticle movement as you move?

The slight reticle movement is there regardless of whether you stand still or move. You just don't notice it while moving.


Edited by DerMax, 05 May 2015 - 12:52 PM.


#20
Liederkranz

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I like the slow idle movement. As comic_sans said, the mech DOES move a little when standing still, you can see it even in the garage. I notice it the most with Infil, you can see the mini shields (?) of the bottom part of the leg approaching the upper part and separating constantly.

 

I actually like that movement, and I personally don't find it excessive as to affect gameplay. What I actually find irritating is that the crosshair moves down quite a bit when you start walking, and goes back up the same bit when you stop, but I guess the explanation for this is the same as the idle movement.


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#21
ThirdEyE

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The slight reticle movement is there regardless of whether you stand still or move. You just don't notice it while moving.

Right, but there is much more reticle movement as you move, especially over elevation changes.  Try walking off a platform without moving your mouse and see how much your aim changes.  Why someone thought that was a good idea, I will never know :(


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#22
VYR3

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I would be pretty bothered if it was out right removed, its very minimal and helps with a lot of immersion. it keeps the mechs from feeling like they're just a static object.



#23
Fstroke

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My understanding is that there are still human pilots and the targeting interface is part of the helmet. So it's probably human breathing.

Is this really an issue?

#24
Hyginos

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Control of an inverted pendulum may be non-trivial and periodic depending on environmental conditions and the complexity of the pendulum itself.


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#25
thirtysix

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mechs don't breath... squash the movement


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#26
Houruck

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You are now breathing manually.
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#27
AsianJoyKiller

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HAWKEN lost tooo much immersion already. This seams like a little thing but for reasons expressed by comic_sans in his first reply, it would be missed. 

As I was taught, animation breathing cycles are meant for immersion in organics. When it comes to mechanical things like vehicles, you do things like animated dashboards, blinking lights, etc.

 

You would only give a breathing cycle to a mechanical if you intended to give it an extremely organic feel, something like a biomechanical creature.

Usually the only time you'd want anything like a breathing cycle on a full mechanical would be if it's floating, as it's assumed that all but the best anti-grav would still bob about a bit in the air.


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#28
LaurenEmily

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It's creepy that the machines breathe but it's also a cool little feature that adds some 'life' to them, not really sure what to make of it.

Oh and I've never noticed it affecting my aim.


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#29
Nept

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If mech breathing goes, then my breathing goes.


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#30
TangledMantis

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