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Hawken SkillGap and What Can Be Done About It

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#1
Merl61

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I was watching a Rocket League pro game the other day and one of the commentators said something to the effect of "the skillgap in this game is so enormous" That got me thinking. Despite this gap, rocket league has millions of players. What makes it different from Hawken? How does a game like that succeed where Hawken fails so abysmally? Here's my list of things that we can do to dampen the crushing force of the skillgap.

 

1. Make sucking at the game fun. When you fail really hard in Rocket League or any other arcade type game, it should be (and usually is) fun! You should be able to laugh at your mistake, and despite the fact that you suck, still enjoy your time. Hawken does not provide an environment where being bad is anywhere near enjoyable. Players have no idea what they did wrong and only see their opponents crushing them into oblivion. It is very hard to laugh at a silly mistake when EVERY MOVE YOU MAKE IS A SILLY MISTAKE. The game is so complex, that at the beginning most players won't be doing ANYTHING correctly. The solution is simple. Better tutorials will lead to a better understanding of the game for Newbies. The more they get off the bat, the easier it will be for them to learn from / laugh at their mistakes.

 

2. Have certain servers designated for certain level ranges ex. 1-15 15-29 30. These servers would ease new players into the game before they were exposed to any high level players (with the exception of smurfs which I will talk about later). They would get hooked on the game by gradually progressing rather than instantly being crushed. Side note, servers open to all levels would still exist, these new servers would simply provide options for people who do not wish to be crushed. 

 

3. The "Mech Credit" System. This system would replace all of the ridiculous HC bonuses at the beginning of your account. Instead, every player unlocks a "Mech Credit" after they play their first 5 games. This credit can be applied to any mech, and will grant you ALL non cosmetic items for that mech. The catch is that the items and mech will ONLY be unlocked while the credit is applied to that mech. Once the credit has been on a mech for a certain amount of time, it can be switched, but you lose the ability to use that mech and its items unless you have bought them with HC or MC. Additional "Mech Credits" Could be purchased with MC. This also deals with P2W quite nicely. 

 

4. Possible "Training System" Where new players can get into a queue and have their questions responded to / be trained by high level players. The High Level Players would simply be opt-ins from the top 50 MMR or so in each region.

 

5. Smurf Discouragement. They will never be eliminated entirely, but there are ways to discourage their creation. The most obvious of which is making high level lobbies more accessible to all players.

 

TL ; DR New player experience sucks. Any one of these things would go a long way to improving it.

 

Comments, questions, and constructive criticism are welcome. GGs. See you on the battlefield. 

 

Merl


Edited by Lil Wizzy, 07 September 2015 - 12:23 PM.

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#2
Sylhiri

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... (with the exception of smurfs which I will talk about later).

 

Where at?



#3
comic_sans

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Rocket League is soccer with cars.  That has a fairly broad appeal.


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#4
DM30

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There definitely is a difference in the markets involved, yeah, but I think Merl has some good points too. In terms of laughing at mistakes, that's something I see pretty often from vets but it's harder for new players to do here. I always laugh when someone realizes that they dun fuzzy bunny'd up and accept their death with a bow, but from a new player perspective most of the time they're still trying to figure out what happened after they die, not thinking, "LOL, that was dumb of me."

 

Not sure about the mech credit system although it does sound interesting, but your first two points especially I could easily get behind.


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#5
Merl61

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Where at?

Lol whoops....edited OP


Edited by Lil Wizzy, 07 September 2015 - 12:23 PM.

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#6
Merl61

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Rocket League is soccer with cars.  That has a fairly broad appeal.

I don't like soccer games. I don't like car games. I like Rocket league because it's a fun game, and it's fun even though I'm terrible. Something that Hawken desperately needs. 


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#7
(P:B)Augmentia

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I don't like soccer games. I don't like car games. I like Rocket league because it's a fun game, and it's fun even though I'm terrible. Something that Hawken desperately needs. 

^This.

 

Hawken desperately needs merl to be terrible at it. xD


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#8
comic_sans

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I don't like soccer games. I don't like car games. I like Rocket league because it's a fun game, and it's fun even though I'm terrible. Something that Hawken desperately needs. 

 

No, I agree, I am not a fan of either either, but I do enjoy rocket league as well. It doesn't change the fact that it's very similar to a game that is already pretty well known in the world.  Turns out soccer has a broad appeal when you don't need to hustle your nerd body to be on even footing with everyone else.

 

On your topic, I like that the game straight up tells you to talk about it on reddit.


Edited by clomic_snuts, 07 September 2015 - 12:36 PM.

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#9
Hyginos

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S9 wrote up a good proposal for training instances. I think that idea is still one of the best options for equipping players with the knowledge they need to at least not get rolled.


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#10
ticklemyiguana

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S9 wrote up a good proposal for training instances. I think that idea is still one of the best options for equipping players with the knowledge they need to at least not get rolled.

Could I have a link so I can put that into 7.0 on the To Do List?


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#11
Rainbow_Sheep

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I 101% agree with 2, A big complaint of new players is that they're put in with people who are a much higher level than them.

Of course levels don't matter too much but this would help with the feeling of unbalance that new players get.

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#12
CrimsonKaim

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Another attempt to solve HWK problems. While the idea being good, I doubt it will ahve any influence by now.


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#13
Hyginos

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Could I have a link so I can put that into 7.0 on the To Do List?

https://community.pl...ssible-rewards/


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#14
OdinTheWise

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a kill cam would be nice, it shows you a review of the kill in different angles and such to give a good review of how you fuzzy bunnyed up. also you could have it disable able in the options if you want. as it stands now, there is very little feedback to new players on play style ect.


Edited by OdinTheWise, 07 September 2015 - 02:38 PM.

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#15
comic_sans

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a kill cam would be nice, it shows you a review of the kill in different angles and such to give a good review of how you fuzzy bunnyed up. also you could have it disable able in the options if you want. as it stands now, there is very little feedback to new players on play style ect.

 

God, this.  Please.  I learned so much from other players in other games just watching their killcams.


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#16
SS396

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I'd just like to point out, that Rocket League is a sequel to another fairly popular game that I played years ago, it was called Supersonic Acrobatic Rocket Powered Battle Cars.  Best name ever.  I think most of why its so much more popular now than then even though its almost the same exact game with minor changes, is due strictly to marketing, and expansion to different platforms.  Previously it was a PS3 exclusive.

 

Also, soccer has a pretty widespread appeal and is a fairly basic game and easily picked up.

 

Comparing Hawken to a soccer game with cars just doesn't seem all that fair, its apples and oranges.

 

I used to play cyberball at my local quarter arcade, maybe we need Hawken mechs playing football and soccer, and completely ditch weapons.  Then we can get purchased by EA and release a new game every year.  


Edited by SS396, 07 September 2015 - 04:27 PM.

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#17
ticklemyiguana

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I'd just like to point out, that Rocket League is a sequel to another fairly popular game that I played years ago, it was called Supersonic Acrobatic Rocket Powered Battle Cars. Best name ever. I think most of why its so much more popular now than then even though its almost the same exact game with minor changes, is due strictly to marketing, and expansion to different platforms. Previously it was a PS3 exclusive.

Also, soccer has a pretty widespread appeal and is a fairly basic game and easily picked up.

Comparing Hawken to a soccer game with cars just doesn't seem all that fair, its apples and oranges.

I used to play cyberball at my local quarter arcade, maybe we need Hawken mechs playing football and soccer, and completely ditch weapons. Then we can get purchased by EA and release a new game every year.

To be fair, soccer with mechs actually comes up with regular frequency - and just knocking a present loose on Winter Last Eco and knocking it around is pretty fun.

I would actually really enjoy the ability to drop a soccer ball down and play with others. (What I mentioned on WLE only happens client side. No one else can see it.)

If this happens, I know what TPG S4 will be.

Edited by ticklemyiguana, 07 September 2015 - 04:33 PM.

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#18
Call_Me_Ishmael

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Cyberball, and quarter arcades.

 

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#19
ATX22

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I was watching a Rocket League pro game the other day and one of the commentators said something to the effect of "the skillgap in this game is so enormous" That got me thinking. Despite this gap, rocket league has millions of players. What makes it different from Hawken? How does a game like that succeed where Hawken fails so abysmally? Here's my list of things that we can do to dampen the crushing force of the skillgap.

Spoiler

 

Hawken is F2P and Rocket League is not?



#20
dorobo

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They need to roollback mmr range changes.. Now there's plenty of two star servers for me to play on but I don't want to cause there be people leaving games left an right or I be loosing and can't do nothing about it cause my team just all fresh players.

 

Maybe add a bot match to tutorials. Something smaller in scale like 2v2 but in a regular map with tips on screen or just bots saying prerecorded stuff in audio format like dude dodge or help me out or look at the radar. Also tips on loading screens would help.

 

At the end of the day it's just a more complicated game with people cloaking backstabbing wearing you down. Not played rocket league but I

see that in essence it's a simple game you can get what it's about instantly. You have a car a simple playin field and a ball. In hawken you have to know the maps and all the other things like rules and mechs and other fuzzy bunny.



#21
thedark20

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I don't know what to say, because all of this is just great. I'll just put a seal of approval:


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#22
Jakyll

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So much point 2!

when i started with Hawken i was very frustrated having to fight against level 20+ pilots and mechs with full loadouts while i just had Fred and a shield. at this point i even wondered if Hawken had a matchmaking system at all, like "seriously?! as a beginner i get matched against these players?" >.>

 

point 1 is a good one, too.

 

but thinking about 4, i doubt that new players will grasp this opportunity, unless they are really interested in the game immediately and get to know about this. imo it's the game's duty to be understandable and explain things for new players.


Edited by Jakyll, 08 September 2015 - 02:58 AM.


#23
Rainbow_Sheep

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Thoughts on 4: A coaching system could work.

 

Just for the love of all that is holy make it better than the TF2 Coaching system

 


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#24
StubbornPuppet

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I play Rocket League.  Fun game.  Not a truly great game, but very unique and well executed.  Not really enough to hold my attention for more than 3-4 matches (which are 5 minutes long).  And that recent tournament was AMAZING.  The ridiculous amount of skill showed in those final matches... just wow.

 

I don't find it a good comparison because:

 

A:  Players rage quit all the time.  In at least 50% of the matches I've played (where it is 2 vs 2 or more), a player quits if a goal is scored by the enemy within the first 60 seconds.  And probably 80% of the time, if the score has a 2 point or greater disparity, the entire losing team quits when there is less than 90 seconds left.

 

B:  The game has a massive player base. There are so many players they do not need to worry much about tricky matchmaking systems... because it's easy to find a group of very similarly skilled players.

 

I have still run into lots of "smurfs" in it though... and they're just as easy to spot in Rocket League as they are in Hawken.

 

Also, Rocket League is more inviting and easier to pick up for a larger player base because it has lower system requirements, has single player vs. AI matches that provide the same experience as the online (to a reasonable degree) and is able to attract a much wider audience who are looking for a game that is easy to pick up and learn... and you can screw around for 5-10 minutes - no need to commit to a larger block of time or risk the wrath and rage of all the teammates you are bailing on.


To be serious for a moment this is just a joke

 


#25
PoopSlinger

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What about having all the high MMR people just quit.  Get rid of the top 100 people and BOOM skillgap insta-lowered.


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#26
Sp3ctrr

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So...What you're saying, merl....

 

 

Is we need footballs in HAWKEN?


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#27
hestoned

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but isnt there a kill cam already? i get the kill cam. is it cause i turned it on in the ini files? i cant remember



#28
StubbornPuppet

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but isnt there a kill cam already? i get the kill cam. is it cause i turned it on in the ini files? i cant remember

You must have turned it on.  I'd be interested in knowing how to do that.


To be serious for a moment this is just a joke

 


#29
Merl61

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You must have turned it on.  I'd be interested in knowing how to do that.

It's not a kill cam. It only shows what they're doing after you're dead. 


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#30
StubbornPuppet

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It's not a kill cam. It only shows what they're doing after you're dead. 

 

Oh, I think that is normal.  I have that.  I set it to first person a long time ago so I could see certain things.


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#31
spr1nterJam

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novice only serv for about 20 level


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#32
AxionOperandi

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Way over analyzing the problem and solution..... and comparing Hawken to Rocket League is like comparing strawberries to mangos; they are both fruit (videogames) but that’s where the comparison stops.

Hawken is rough on new players because its complex; there is movement restrictions in the form of turn rate, boost cool down, and air movement. The weapons are also tricky to use with high burst damage and slow rates of fire. If you don't have a really strong understanding of how both the movement system works you are going to servery held back in engagements and be frustrated when you get danced around and ultimately destroyed. Same goes for weapons; if you don't have the timing nailed down and how the projectiles behave in terms of arc and speed your timing will always be off and you more often than not be missing most of your shots and again you'll be dead and frustrated.

The solution in my opinion is more mechs and weapons with simple play mechanics that suited to new players. If you can remove the learning curve from the weapons you can allow the player to focus on the movement system and give them some confidence in that aspect of the game. For weapons "faster" B Class mechs or A Class mech with a bit more than average health would probably be ideal. Assault, Berserker, and Vanguard are actually pretty good but I think the TOW launcher is a bit finicky to get a handle on, think something even easier is needed. I has a pretty slow rate of fire making misses very punishing, and there is a risk of damaging yourself with splash damage at close range. Assault Rifle, SMG, and even the Vulcan are generally ok (there should be more options though) but for secondaries burst weapons that cycle quickly, have projectiles that move rather quick and follow a straight path would be ideal for new players, dull and boring for us most likely that’s not the point. Beyond those key points I think the weapons could vary quite a bit but I think more weapons/mechs.

Edited by AxionOperandi, 11 September 2015 - 08:57 AM.

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#33
HHJFTRU

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I think that there are easy to use mechs in each class already. Assault, Berserker, Vanguard. I'd also say Technician, Rocketeer, Bruiser. The latter 2 will lose their initial effieciency as the opponents become more skilled, though.

The dedicated server-thing could contribute more to the new player experience IMO. The first 2 to 10 hours are crucial in player retention. As there are no training missions except VR-training (which looks horrible, people who try out the game need visually appealing stuff) and offline training (only one map, nerfed bots), make safe playgrounds for the new players.


Edited by HHJFTRU, 11 September 2015 - 12:46 AM.

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#34
Superkamikazee

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I was watching a Rocket League pro game the other day and one of the commentators said something to the effect of "the skillgap in this game is so enormous" That got me thinking. Despite this gap, rocket league has millions of players. What makes it different from Hawken? How does a game like that succeed where Hawken fails so abysmally? Here's my list of things that we can do to dampen the crushing force of the skillgap.
 
1. Make sucking at the game fun. When you fail really hard in Rocket League or any other arcade type game, it should be (and usually is) fun! You should be able to laugh at your mistake, and despite the fact that you suck, still enjoy your time. Hawken does not provide an environment where being bad is anywhere near enjoyable. Players have no idea what they did wrong and only see their opponents crushing them into oblivion. It is very hard to laugh at a silly mistake when EVERY MOVE YOU MAKE IS A SILLY MISTAKE. The game is so complex, that at the beginning most players won't be doing ANYTHING correctly. The solution is simple. Better tutorials will lead to a better understanding of the game for Newbies. The more they get off the bat, the easier it will be for them to learn from / laugh at their mistakes.

Tutorials are not a great solution, and more often than not tutorials are not very fun. Rocket League doesn't have a tutorial, but that's more due to the simple mechanics. Hawken needs a simple 10-12 mission  (1.5-2 hr)  "mini" campaign, introduce the players to some lore, and teach them the basics. 
 
2. Have certain servers designated for certain level ranges ex. 1-15 15-29 30. These servers would ease new players into the game before they were exposed to any high level players (with the exception of smurfs which I will talk about later). They would get hooked on the game by gradually progressing rather than instantly being crushed. Side note, servers open to all levels would still exist, these new servers would simply provide options for people who do not wish to be crushed. 
 
Not possible with Hawkens low player count. Hawkens curse is being niche. Low player count, new players matched with better players, the new player experience suffers, population numbers remain low. 
 
3. The "Mech Credit" System. This system would replace all of the ridiculous HC bonuses at the beginning of your account. Instead, every player unlocks a "Mech Credit" after they play their first 5 games. This credit can be applied to any mech, and will grant you ALL non cosmetic items for that mech. The catch is that the items and mech will ONLY be unlocked while the credit is applied to that mech. Once the credit has been on a mech for a certain amount of time, it can be switched, but you lose the ability to use that mech and its items unless you have bought them with HC or MC. Additional "Mech Credits" Could be purchased with MC. This also deals with P2W quite nicely. 
 
The F2P model conundrum, trying to make something feel fair in a pay model just means the pay model is fundamentally broken. Part of Rocket Leagues success is the drip feed unlock system. After every few matches something unlocks, Psyonix has mastered the carrot on the stick approach. No grinding for credits, no options to "relieve" the grind,  just play, unlock gear, play, unlock gear. Play, reward, play, reward. Perfect.
 
4. Possible "Training System" Where new players can get into a queue and have their questions responded to / be trained by high level players. The High Level Players would simply be opt-ins from the top 50 MMR or so in each region.
 
Great in theory, but doesn't seem sustainable. The teachers will eventually get tired of dealing with  new players, showing them the ropes, and will probably demand some form of compensation to continue. That compensation will end up having to be real $$$ vs HC or MC since vet players probably have enough of everything in game. 
 
5. Smurf Discouragement. They will never be eliminated entirely, but there are ways to discourage their creation. The most obvious of which is making high level lobbies more accessible to all players.
 
The F2P curse persists. Smurfing is not curable unless there is a reason for players to not abandon their main accounts. There needs to be value added to the primary account, ranks, unlocks, a prestige mode, vanity.
 
TL ; DR New player experience sucks. Any one of these things would go a long way to improving it.
 
Comments, questions, and constructive criticism are welcome. GGs. See you on the battlefield. 
 
Merl


Just my .02.

Hawken cannot be compared to Rocket League. Rocket League doesn't have complex item and internal management systems, it has pretty hats and thurster options. All the cars handle the same, similar hit boxes, vs Hawkens varied mech lineup. RL is deceptively simple gameplay wise, so much so that non gamers can easily start playing and play with success. If a player excels there are movement options to further the depth of the game. The real issue with Hawken is it's not a simple, approachable game. RL is soccer, soccer is the most widely played sport in the world, everyone knows the game, rules, objective etc. Hawken is a complex, systems heavy mech FPS with a pay model that further complicates the experience.


Edited by Superkamikazee, 11 September 2015 - 06:20 AM.

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#35
AxionOperandi

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I think that there are easy to use mechs in each class already. Assault, Berserker, Vanguard. I'd also say Technician, Rocketeer, Bruiser. The latter 2 will lose their initial effieciency as the opponents become more skilled, though.
The dedicated server-thing could contribute more to the new player experience IMO. The first 2 to 10 hours are crucial in player retention. As there are no training missions except VR-training (which looks horrible, people who try out the game need visually appealing stuff) and offline training (only one map, nerfed bots), make safe playgrounds for the new players.


You are right there are, and they are fairly easy but I think there should be something even easier. I meant to say that in my original post but it was late..... I'm going to edit it and reply to your point there (I bolded my new stuff).

Edited by AxionOperandi, 11 September 2015 - 08:58 AM.


#36
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Boring. So Boring. 


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