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What are the weaknesses of Assault and Berzerker?

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#1
Elite_is_salty

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Enlighten me please. Because I believe they have none. That's why I want them seriously nerfed.


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#2
DerMax

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None.



#3
SatelliteJack

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The Assault shoots too long, and the Zerker shoots too hard.


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#4
IareDave

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I think the better question is: What are the weaknesses of sustain/TOWs. The answer to that is none, and balance is needed in both of these weapons in particular and has been needed for years now.



#5
nepacaka

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berserk flying slower than raider or scout :D

it need a flying-speed buff.

 

assault is so weak, it should have a 799 HP, because i can't kill no one while piloting this sheet !


Edited by nepacaka, 22 August 2015 - 12:11 AM.

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#6
n3onfx

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They actually have some weaknesses, in fact I'd say Assault's weakness is that it's not a Berzerker, and the Berzerker's weakness is that it's not an assault.


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#7
CrimsonKaim

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The following:


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#8
Kopra

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every mech is good or maby even the best it only depend on skill of the pilot u just need 2 play better even tech can kill the whole enemy team i seen it with my own eyes you just need to use good tactics boost dodge boost assault is only average in every role so maby u need to rethink ur approach dont hate on the assault just becus u get killed by it LOL XD for example maby equip shock coil so u take no damage so u can take whole enemy team by SUPRISE and then they start to panic and then u just need 2 boost doge boost but also remember good tip that BOOSTING SHOWS U ON RADAR omg but yeah if u get killed by assault or berskserkser u shud rethink ur tactics abd alwys remeber better pilot ALWYAS WIN =====))))))))))
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#9
nepacaka

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shock coil too OP! shock coil to everything! now i know why my assault can't kill everyone! i delete this weakness right noaw!


Edited by nepacaka, 22 August 2015 - 12:53 AM.

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#10
PsychedelicGrass

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Use a burst mech and corner them. Preferably a heat scout. Sustain mechs aren't that great at corner play and if you're doing it right you can deal massive damage to them and take none or very little yourself. 


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#11
Elite_is_salty

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Sustain mechs aren't that great at corner play

 

LOLNO

 

Even vulcan isn't that bad in corner play anymore. Just boost out of cover and hover like a madafaker and shoot like never cuz there's nothing better.

 

I'm rhyming.


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#12
nepacaka

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Use a burst mech and corner them.

 

i like how players use this argument, and always forgot, that you need more than 15 seconds to kill good player from heat in corner fight, but assault need only 5-6 sec to shred enemy if he catch him or make a surprise attack.

time - it is a resource in hawken. and burst mech working worse in siege/ma, because they can't kill fast. it is probably good when one mech in team have burst, but if 2 or 3, team starting sux by DPS (and can very easy lose AA, because they don't have enought cover to fight, especcially on map like lostEco). And don't forget than burst mech (heat cannon for example) is a very bad against enemy with personal tech.

 

so, assault not op in 1vs1, and can easily (not very easily actually) die against heat-scout. but you feel the power when assault came with his five assault-friends and shred all on AA. in situation where you can't cover (ofcourse you can cover, but cover in this situation = lose AA)

;D

 

we actually need a comromise, and thinking in which way hawken should turn.

burst weapon is good balanced now for 1vs1 matches. but hawken matches working in 6vs6 mode! so, burst weapons should be buffed, to have a better DPS and ttk like sustain weapons, but if you do this, burst weapons starting a extremly badass in 1vs1. so...


Edited by nepacaka, 22 August 2015 - 02:02 AM.

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#13
Elite_is_salty

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burst weapon is good balanced now for 1vs1 matches. but hawken matches working in 6vs6 mode! so, burst weapons should be buffed, to have a better DPS and ttk like sustain weapons, but if you do this, burst weapons starting a extremly badass in 1vs1. so...

 

I'd rather see sustain weapons get nerfed instead of burst getting buffed so that TTK won't go down even more. A reasonable nerf to sustain weapons could go a long way.

 

Also the air speed of all mechs pretty much might use a slight nerf.

 

I remember when mechs were more mechs than helicopters. It was really a lot of fun don't you guys agree?


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#14
nepacaka

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Also the air speed of all mechs pretty much might use a slight nerf.

 

mostly it is "acceleration" question.

berserk have a faster flying speed, but it is really faser only if he walking and than flying. if scout use boost+jump, he accelerated to insane air speed and faster than the berserker. it's funny that mech designed for flight, flying slower than the mech with x3 slower flying speed (or even with the same speed...) :D

maybe it is a bug, i don't know. but i'm 99% sure it is working incorrect now.

 

if devs fix it, berserk actually be a king of sky. now he is not. dat bunny hopping tactics working on every fast mech the same...

i mean, no need to nerf flying speed, better rework acceleration system.


Edited by nepacaka, 22 August 2015 - 03:09 AM.

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#15
Hyginos

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The weakness of these mechs is that they can be a crutch and promote bad habits.

 

As for the burst vs sustain thing: you can really only abuse a sustain mech around corners if you are much better than its pilot. That in itself is not a problem (I think it is inherent to the burst vs sustain thing), but the skill gap required to do it is a bit to large right now IMO.


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#16
Elite_is_salty

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Some might just ask, somehome ... what's the problem if those mechs are really good? If they're good play them ...

And after smashing my head on the wall I'd clarify that unfortunately other mechs have some major weaknesses, ones that make them useless in some modes or maps or situations.

 

If anyone is against nerfing those 2 mechs, I hope he's welcoming many many many MANY buffs for AAAAAAALL other mechs.


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#17
Kindos7

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Nobody is safe,
from the sustain.
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#18
BIsmuthZornisse

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i haven't played in a long time (due to busted controller and real life obligations), what's the issue with sustained weapons specifically again? i don't remember.

 

about assault: i remember it being meant to be a generalist, so i assume it simply ended up being too good at everything? would a slight nerf across all stats help?

 

as an assassination mech, the berserker kinda needs good attack power (although the ability should be nerfed, i'd say, either in duration or strength), maybe a movement speed decrease could work?


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#19
CounterlogicMan

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Zerker and assault weakness is/supposed to be burst damage. Snipers actually knock these mechs down fairly easily.

 

Gotta be careful when talking about "nerfs". Any change for damage to sustain could make burst woefully op. 

 

Need to look at it from multiple angles and look at ways to change the balance without touching damage. I think damage is in an okay spot right now for the vast 99% of weapons. And when you change damage you are playing with a complicated beast that doesn't just effect 1 mech/weapon. It is best to stay away from touching dps and damage per shot unless you know for sure that is what needs changed.

 

Let's start off with this. Do you actually think all sustain weapons are op? or specific sustain weapons? Are there other factors that contribute to the power of sustain weapons? Deficiencies in other weapons that aren't sustain?Try and think of it from a stats perspective and not a knee jerk reaction to your memories of shredding/being shredded with an assault.

 

I personally believe smc should generate slightly more heat, like .1 more per shot, and the fall off for the vulcan should end at 140m (slightly lower than smc) instead of 200m. The SMC has too much staying power for how much dps it has (especially given that it is on 3 tow mechs a gl mech and a hf mech) and the vulcan has a high min damage per shot which means putting its fall out end at 200m (same as ar) is a bit too much versatility (AR min damage at 200m is 2.75 Vulcan is 5.04). Also vulcan xt should generate less heat than it does. It should be more in line with what the regular vulcan generates to make up for having less rate of fire and only 1 point of damage more per shot. 

 

 

Then we would have from smallest to highest (only including what I think should be changed and other numbers for reference) Again, visit this link for an overview of specific hawken stats.

 

range Vulcan 140m smc 160m ar 200m

damage per shot(min) smc 12(2)  vulcan 14.52(5.04) vulcan xt 15.5 (2.75) ar 19.8(2.75)

dps Vulcan xt 77.5 ar 99 smc 104.4 vulcan 121

heat gen smc (.77) vulcan (.875) vulcan xt (.95)  ar (1.4)

Time to overheat in seconds vulcan 13.71 ar 14.29 smc 14.92 

 

instead of what we have now

 

range smc 160 vulcan 200 ar 200

damage per shot smc 12 (2) vulcan 14.52 (5.04) vulcan xt 15.5 (2.75) ar 19.8 (2.75)

dps ar 99 smc 104.4 vulcan 121

heat gen smc (.67) vulcan (.875) vulcan xt (1.1)<--wtf why  ar (1.4)

Time to overheat in seconds vulcan 13.71 ar 14.29 smc 17.16

 

Side note: Maybe could consider boosting up AR min damage per shot at 200m slightly? would help counter snipers a bit. The min damage of ar is only 2.75, slightly more than smc which concerns me because it makes the AR appear as a less versatile slightly longer range smc vs its intended role of a heavy hitter at longer ranges. Would love to see the fall off curve for the damage before seriously talking about adjusting min damage values though.

 

Side note #2: changing smc damage per shot by 1 brings its dps down to 95.7. Just to give you all perspective of how much effect a small damage change can have. 

 

Aside from these direct changes to sustain weapons. There are some changes to other weapons that I believe would make sustain less powerful indirectly without making them under powered. Shotguns should have normalized spread (spread that doesn't change from shot to shot). And the incin should have its charged saare shot heat dispersed/given reduced from 30 to 25. Hellfires should get a slight velocity buff. This will change their curving radius a little, allowing them to turn around more corners and reach their targets faster. The hellfires at the moment travel at an abysmal 34 m/s. Speed buff would allow for more interesting hellfire play that might make them more viable at higher levels and would buff dumbfire slightly (something people have been wanting for awhile). And of course. EOC puck velocity should go up some. I believe 25 m/s more would be a good starting point.

 

These are just changes I would suggest after looking over the numbers a lot and playing the game a lot. Not from the perspective of: I want my mechs I play to be better (okay maybe eoc alittle) and there to be sweeping drastic changes. But from the perspective of I want the game to be more interesting (many viable playstyles/setups) and fun at all skill levels through small changes because I believe the game is already largely well balanced.

 

edits: not changing much but just making it more readable. Also clarifying some sentences that would misconstrue what I am trying to say if left alone. I can also explain the maths behind my reasoning if anyone wants it.


Edited by CounterlogicMan, 22 August 2015 - 08:17 AM.

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#20
WmMoneyFrmMissouri

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I hate that the solution is to always make a game easier or to pull back on abilities - and this is all in general regarding games. I say no nerf but buff everything else, if a change needs to take place.

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#21
JeffMagnum

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Side note: Maybe could consider boosting up AR min damage per shot at 200m slightly? would help counter snipers a bit. The min damage of ar is only 2.75 more than smc which concerns me because it makes the AR appear as a less versatile slightly longer range smc vs its intended role of a heavy hitter at longer ranges. Would love to see the fall off curve for the damage before seriously talking about adjusting min damage values though.

 

I don't want to address the majority of that post right now, but I'm interested in more detailed falloff data too and would be willing to make some plots out of boredom. How does damage decrease between the start and end distances? Linearly? 


Edited by JeffMagnum, 22 August 2015 - 08:19 AM.

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#22
CounterlogicMan

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I don't want to address the majority of that post right now, but I'm interested in the falloff curves too and would be willing to make some out of boredom. Does damage decrease linearly between the start and end distances? 

Something that the devs would have to tell us or we would have to spend a night testing/mathing. Something I would totally be down for.

 

plzzz address the whole thing at some point if you are interested in furthering the discussion. Would love input from everyone on my post. It is stuff I have been theory crafting for awhile. The topic of what to do with sustain isn't something that should be reduced to snippets of opinion. It has a pretty far reaching consequence on game play at all levels of skill.

 

thanks bae magnum

 

edit: I edit too much. Combination of anxiety and rushing into things. Whenever I post something you might as well continuously refresh while reading.


Edited by CounterlogicMan, 22 August 2015 - 08:24 AM.

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#23
Hyginos

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I don't want to address the majority of that post right now, but I'm interested in more detailed falloff data too and would be willing to make some plots out of boredom. How does damage decrease between the start and end distances? Linearly? 

 

I made a graph at one point based on the salty stats and just assumed they are linear. Does not account for spread however.

 

Spoiler


Edited by Hyginos, 22 August 2015 - 08:38 AM.

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#24
KOS_Baconman

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They actually have some weaknesses, in fact I'd say Assault's weakness is that it's not a Berzerker, and the Berzerker's weakness is that it's not an assault.

yeah zerkers worst enemy is heat I'd say


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#25
EM1O

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yeah zerkers worst enemy is heat I'd say

yup. AC, Evasive, basic Deflector, Vulcan Zerk is otherwise an air-born horror. gotta luv dis mech.

with heatup rate backed off, it would give Scout haters something new to rant about.


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#26
JeffMagnum

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I just tested it multi-boxing with Slug, AR, SMC, and Slug Breacher and all of them had linear falloff. I might still do per-shot falloff plots though

 

I made a graph at one point based on the salty stats and just assumed they are linear. Does not account for spread however.

 

Spoiler

 


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#27
hellc9943

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Armor and heat generation usually are the Berzerker's and Assault's biggest weaknesses. The ability of the Assault helps a little bit with the heat, but it still can happen that you overheat before you can finish the fifth mech and die because you are also too slow to run away from anything that isn't a Brawler and you really haven't got enough armor to wait for your weapons to come up again.

Speaking of running away, Berzerker is moving too slow for an A class. Air speed is almost fine, could still need a buff, but walk speed really needs to be something done with, at least make it as fast as a scout. That and his fuel tank.

It's not that big of an issue, buffing the SMC would help both mechs to be more capable of surviving encounters, but buffing armor would also help a lot.


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#28
comic_sans

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THEY'RE BORING


Edited by clomic_snuts, 22 August 2015 - 10:24 AM.

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#29
Elite_is_salty

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THEY'RE BORING

 

That's exactly why you play zerker only in TPG.


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#30
Amidatelion

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THEY'RE BORING


This from the high king of vulcan cheese.
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#31
_incitatus

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Comic beat me to it. They are so boring.

#32
comic_sans

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This from the high king of vulcan cheese.

 

but it woooooorks


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#33
PsychedelicGrass

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LOLNO

Even vulcan isn't that bad in corner play anymore. Just boost out of cover and hover like a madafaker and shoot like never cuz there's nothing better.

I'm rhyming.




If you're giving them the opportunity to do that you just gotta get gud

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#34
phed

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i'm of the opinion that the sustained mechs became op at the same moment that flying weapon accuracy was made the same as walking weapon accuracy.  i'm too stoned to remember what the word for this was...  but yeah that and the advancement of air combat which sustained takes better advantage of

 

but a mech should only fly to jump on another's head.  personally i'd like to see weapons locked while boosting into the air - just like boosting on the ground, free-fall firing is cool though.  then airspeeds and elevations could be increased for more dodge ability and dance moves but sustained would not be able to take an inordinate advantage from it.

 

and remove the weapon raise delay -- then hawked would rule the interwebs again with the most complex and entertaining combat system ever to see the light of day


Edited by phed, 22 August 2015 - 12:34 PM.

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#35
phed

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i mean seriously,  why can't i use my weapons if i'm on the ground using the same thrusters that i use to fly where i can use my weapons?


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#36
CrimsonKaim

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i mean seriously,  why can't i use my weapons if i'm on the ground using the same thrusters that i use to fly where i can use my weapons?

 

Because humanity isn't an equivalent to intelligence or common sense. 


Edited by FakeName, 22 August 2015 - 01:06 PM.

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#37
nepacaka

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i'm of the opinion that the sustained mechs became op at the same moment that flying weapon accuracy was made the same as walking weapon accuracy.  i'm too stoned to remember what the word for this was...  but yeah that and the advancement of air combat which sustained takes better advantage of

 

also, while walking you crosshair "shake", and it is clearly see on SA Brawler (or any other C-class). which have 99% accuracy while stand still, and 0% accuracy while walking, because your crosshair floating from left to right like a hell. in fact, you might even get a bonus to accuracy, while you in flight (cuz your crosshair not shake).

 

And A- or B-class actually have less crosshair shaking while walking and can shoot more accurately (maybe i'm wrong, but when i play on A-class it is more easy to shoot for me, than on C-class)


Edited by nepacaka, 22 August 2015 - 01:51 PM.

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#38
n3onfx

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Armor and heat generation usually are the Berzerker's and Assault's biggest weaknesses. The ability of the Assault helps a little bit with the heat, but it still can happen that you overheat before you can finish the fifth mech and die because you are also too slow to run away from anything that isn't a Brawler and you really haven't got enough armor to wait for your weapons to come up again.

Speaking of running away, Berzerker is moving too slow for an A class. Air speed is almost fine, could still need a buff, but walk speed really needs to be something done with, at least make it as fast as a scout. That and his fuel tank.

It's not that big of an issue, buffing the SMC would help both mechs to be more capable of surviving encounters, but buffing armor would also help a lot.

 

subtle :3


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#39
JackVandal

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Snip

I wonder if in addition to the changes you mentioned, i think some maps would help too, when content rolls out, some more maps the favor cqc with short lines of sight could help weaken sustain against burst.


"but the dead horse has been beaten so many times it's practically a pulpy mess in the barn by now."

-M1lkshake


#40
Elite_is_salty

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If you're giving them the opportunity to do that you just gotta get gud

 

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