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capnjosh,LadyTiggs,information overload, and you

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#1
FlamingBeaker

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Just throwing this idea out here for everyone:

 

Do we really want the devs to have to go through several pages of suggested changes postings, each of which is several pages of back-and-forth discussion deep, just to find a few bright nuggets of wisdom? Or 800 attempts to get them to fix this first instead of that? Instead of developing/implementing?

 

What if we did something like this:

 

Every 1st Monday, monthly, capnjosh puts up a poll in Announcements like this example: "Hey gang, we can work on only one of the following things this week/month/year - pick one. Tech stat tweak, Incin stat Tweak, dodge cooldown tweak" The poll stays open all week.

 

The 2nd Monday, a winner is chosen. An anouncement is made. "Ok, Incin tweak won the poll. Time/money is limited, so right now we are only looking to tweak damage amount, rate, or splash of all its weapons. What should change and why?" 

 

The community debates this in the General Forums all week. People debate, refine, list pros & cons, new issues are revealed.

 

The 3rd Monday, a special posting process occurs - each forum member is allowed to submit one (and ONLY one) final proposal post to the devs, in private, unviewable by all. In X words or less. A neat, quick, refined, eloquent summary of their view. A few members may choose a spokesmen amongst themselves to reduce repeating final proposals. Wednesday, the final proposal process is closed, and all final proposal submissions are posted in the Announcements forum, read only.  The devs take a week, or longer, to soak it all in.

 

The last week of the month, capnjosh reveals what, if anything, is to be acted upon.

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

The goal of this would be to present community opinions in an organized, timely manner that makes it easier for the devs to get back to developing!  If they have time to watch 18 threads simultaneously, great! If not, this proposal process would still serve the same purpose. Everyone gathers together at the same time each month. The proposal submissions being 'one time only, and blind' would keep things readable for the devs, cut straight to the important parts (leaving out personal attacks, me too posts, and thread derailments) and prevent anyone 'getting the last word in'.  Some processes are time-limited in order to keep the information down to a managable amount.

 

The Incinerator example above was just used as an example, not trying to push an agenda or anything. Times and days could also be tweaked, etc. but repeated regularity and incentive for everyone to continue showing up is a goal.

 

Discuss.


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#2
Luaq

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I'd participate! If such a thing would happen. I like the vote options in and I think implementing it IN-GAME would be quite interesting. Not all the people go on the forums. When you log in, there would be this poll page pop up, for those who don't care can skip, for those you want to vote, vote while also reminding the players that there are forums and that their are invited to discuss more here.



#3
Brawler_Yukon

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This gives me a bad feeling but I don't know why, it seems like a good system, but it feels like it might end up backfiring and completely breaking something at some point by comity. And just buggering up something by virtue of badly informed mob mentality. Like, using the inc as example, lots of people said the Inc. should stop being able to absorb heat form other mechs and rely solely on it's own, it would completely fubar how it works. But perhaps I'm just worried for nothing.


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#4
ticklemyiguana

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I like this. I don't have a lot to add here, as this is pretty comprehensive. I'm just concerned about facts being muddled with nonfacts, and the devs, no offense, not being familiar enough with the game to know which is which. However that bridge needs to be crossed regardless.


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#5
capnjosh

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This, I want to do.  And in fact, I'm going to do it right now :)

 

Watch for an Announcement post.


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#6
Anichkov3

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Developers should be careful with this kind of voting. Opinion of the crowd far from always true..... 

Remember that only you - the developers to decide what to do, and not always be around to listen to people who do not know what they want.


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http://www.hawken.ru- ???? ??????????? ?????????? ??????? (Website of the Russian community)

http://ru.hawken.wikia.com - ??????? ????????? ?? ???? (Russian Wikipedia HAWKEN)

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#7
crockrocket

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This, I want to do.  And in fact, I'm going to do it right now :)

 

Watch for an Announcement post.

Just remember, a lot of the playerbase doesn't use the forums, and unless it has already changed, there's the added factor of non-verified accounts not being on here yet. 

It's a good idea, just take the input with a grain of salt.

 

EDIT: Also, aren't we unable to participate in Announcement posts?

 

EDIT2: Oh! Btw Josh, JeffMagnum started a voting thread on some of the hot forum topics earlier today! If you didn't see it, check it out: https://community.pl...versial-topics/

 

I think if community members keep voting, that thread is going to be a great source of information.


Edited by crockrocket, 25 March 2015 - 08:17 PM.

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#8
Z1Alpha

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I don't feel like they have to dig through a lot just see whats hot, considering this isn't the WoW forums. But this would definitely make it easier for them. Of course we have to keep in mind, that even if something gets popular vote, it might still not happen for reasons.


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#9
CraftyDus

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Just remember, a lot of the playerbase doesn't use the forums, and unless it has already changed, there's the added factor of non-verified accounts not being on here yet. 

It's a good idea, just take the input with a grain of salt.

 

 

 

what about the contingent of former players who posted on forum 24/7 and rarely or never played Hawken...


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#10
CrimsonKaim

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To the first post/first line.

Yes yes yes and yes oh yes. I want them to go through thousands of pages.
I mean it may be much but it reflects the amount of problems in this game.
If you don't use your voice you won't be heard and after all what difference would it make to be silent? Right, none. The devs can still decide wheather they want to read through or not. It's just like a book. If you want to take a break you lay the book down and drink a coffee. Without a book would would simply drink coffee and more coffee coffe coffeeeeeeeeee

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#11
teeth_03

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That's why I made this thread, but I guess no one understood the point. We need to condense and prioritize our thoughts. Lets let the devs know what they just work on first, not give them a list that they will be working on for 5 years.

https://community.pl...read/#entry5136

#12
devotion

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i don't enjoy the idea of community voting, because i don't think the community understands what's best for itself. i think players are well-intentioned and excitable about a game they love, but i don't think that translates over to a fundamental understanding of balance or game immersion. i personally feel that strong design and good internal testing will drive a game far more than any amount of selectively biased voting will and am worried about the direction hawken may take as a result.



#13
Luaq

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Hm I'm impressed to see how it's actually 50/50... People are scared of bad decisions from the community but in the same time scared of bad decisions from the devs.

Spock, we have a problem.


Edited by Luaq, 26 March 2015 - 09:41 AM.


#14
Brawler_Yukon

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i don't enjoy the idea of community voting, because i don't think the community understands what's best for itself. i think players are well-intentioned and excitable about a game they love, but i don't think that translates over to a fundamental understanding of balance or game immersion. i personally feel that strong design and good internal testing will drive a game far more than any amount of selectively biased voting will and am worried about the direction hawken may take as a result.

Or, newbs who don't understand the game flooding it with bad ideas, the exact thing happened to Neverwinter, I was there for years and at the start it was fantastic and all the classes played great, but then every summer the influx of new and bad players suggesting things turn all the classes from great, to worthless post lvl 60, and made doing anything not fun, I finally left when they decided the Clerics needed to stop being so good.(Good in this scenario is barely workable AoE monsters of burst health that die in 2 seconds if you're not careful.) It's a good idea in concept, but only if the Devs choose to ignore bad ideas and popular vote doesn't win, but best(Or at very least, most workable) idea.


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#15
crockrocket

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what about the contingent of former players who posted on forum 24/7 and rarely or never played Hawken...


Exactly, this system has potential to take in input from a lot of people who don't really play, while leaving out the opinions of many who do.

Though it is important for player retention concerns to learn why people quit.

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Salvage: An Idea to Stop Leavers

Player Retention & Howken

 

[14:31] <Crafty> I know that in my balls
[14:32] <Crafty> hawken is unlike anything Ive played

 

 


#16
Aelita

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Polls and the loudest beeing heard and not the most reasonable...we had that. Brought us some change that made a lot of good people leave the game.



#17
devotion

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Hm I'm impressed to see how it's actually 50/50... People are scared of bad decisions from the community but in the same time scared of bad decisions from the devs.

Spock, we have a problem.

the two concepts are not mutually exclusive. none of the devs have indicated a flair for mechanical, analytic understanding of the game; that is fine in and of itself, but i worry that the decision making from above will be overly sensitive to suggestion across the board. don't get me wrong, i think it's very important for devs to be receptive to their audience, but there is a line, and i feel that open forum participation is well over it: there is a reason some people make games and others do not.



#18
talon70

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Why not vote thru an email poll. Its a good excuse to send a periodic message: "the NEW HAWKEN WANTS YOUR INPUT"

 

You could reach the largest numbers that way.



#19
FlamingBeaker

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I think people are focusing too much on step 1 (Poll) - You can remove that poll, and instead use a repeat of step 2 (ask for one post from each member regarding what you want done 1st & why) as a first step. The following week pick a winner (what to fix 1st), then concentrate on the 'how'.

 

It doesn't have to have a poll at all. Only neat, tidy paragraph-sized proposals that are easy to read, and hopefully well thought out after a week in the General Forums. To answer a single question (or set of  questions). Kind of like staying on-topic in a forum post.

 

Note that in the example I used, the dev had already picked the 3 things, and was only asking you to pick which one to work on 1st. Implying he'd already decided all three would be worked on at some point.

 

None of this means the devs are forbidden from reading petabytes of posts, or that they are contract-bound to abide by the majority mob rule. No offense to any majority mobs out there.

 

Like I stated at the beginning, "Just throwing this idea out here for everyone:"  Ideas can be improved upon.



#20
AxionOperandi

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Hmmmm.... idk about this idea.  Design by comity is never really good thing.

 

The fact that the forum only represents a small portion of the player base as has already been pointed out is big one and I'm not sure the forum community is necessarily going to act in the best interest of the player base as a whole.

 

Then there is the fact that the game really needs to be designed with unified vision in my opinion.  If design decision are made based on popular vote there may be unforeseen consequences as no one aspect of the game operates in in vacuum.  Tweaking the Incinerator for the example is going to have ramifications on other mechanics of the game, many of which are also presumably going to be tweaked.  Since it would be pretty much impossible for the community to be aware of all the changing/evolving variables it seems very likely bad decisions would be made.



#21
Luaq

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if captnjosh is encouraging us to feed him with news/suggestions though...

He's definitely the one takes the decisions so you have your designer dev team "security" choice there. In final, it's always going to be the devs teams to act but I think it's not bad for them to ask some feedback, weather it is long discussions on forums or polls. See it as a challenge for the dev team to keep their ideas solid and more powerful than ours (ours being more of a distraction, like a writter that thinks of his next chapter while looking through his window for inspiration, slight influence or stick to his ideas more clearly)



#22
AxionOperandi

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if captnjosh is encouraging us to feed him with news/suggestions though...

He's definitely the one takes the decisions so you have your designer dev team "security" choice there. In final, it's always going to be the devs teams to act but I think it's not bad for them to ask some feedback, weather it is long discussions on forums or polls. See it as a challenge for the dev team to keep their ideas solid and more powerful than ours (ours being more of a distraction, like a writter that thinks of his next chapter while looking through his window for inspiration, slight influence or stick to his ideas more clearly)

Oh, yeah sending in suggestions to the devs in is a great idea.  And adding structure and creating an organized way to do that is also a great idea.

 

The way the orginal post was worded made it sound like design decisions would be made based on popular vote (design by comity), that doesn’t sound like a very good idea to me.  If thats not what was meant then I'm cool with the general concept.



#23
Luaq

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I think in which ever situation,  the dev cuts in to decide what is best. If a matter is going to be voted in a poll or not. That would be his trusted decision. Poll questions, if that ever happens, will be chosen by the devs and the question can be made so their is a favorable response. :)



#24
Leonhardt

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This could be applied on a much larger scale so instead of just putting up questions to the community about game tweaks you could also ask them about what new content they want first.

 

For example you could ask them if they want a new map, mech/skins or game mode to be worked on for that month. Things like that are also a great way to make sure that development spends its time catering to their market as best they can.






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