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#1
capnjosh

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So the price change should have been global.  I screwed up and missed the emblem price - that's just embarrassing.  I should have my boss Brawler taken from me as recompense.  Tiggs, yes, you may continue your trouncing of me in the boss vs. boss battles we've done.

 

The mech pricing being different than the 50% off.... yeah, well, that's just bad bad bad timing on my part.  The intent was to start making the prices reflect the fact that all mechs are competitive, so new users don't assume the expensive mechs are massively superior.  Let this be a lesson - just keep the pricing simple!!  Otherwise, it gets all confusing, and then the suspicious of foul, deceptive play creep in.  I'd like to think I will never make a mistake again.


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#2
Nept

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Fired.


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#3
Silverfire

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one hour Free 500 MC is gone too. Nice stealth

 

If you're going to change something, even something like that, do tell us

 

ADH made a lot of stealth changes that people didn't appreciate

 

and I appreciated the free 500 MC.


Edited by Silverfire, 30 May 2015 - 01:39 PM.

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#4
Sylhiri

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Your forum avatar makes sense now :0


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#5
Guns_N_Rozer

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i want that boss Brawler  :pirate:



#6
capnjosh

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one hour Free 500 MC is gone too. Nice stealth

 

If you're going to change something, even something like that, do tell us

 

ADH made a lot of stealth changes that people didn't appreciate

 

and I appreciated the free 500 MC.

 

This is true.  Talk about a failed set of things this week.  Sorry everybody.

 

The 500MC wasn't really getting used, of all the crazy things.  Most accounts never even spent it, and given that the only reason it was added in the first place was to increase conversion rates (which didn't happen at all), we dropped it. Well, I was the one that pushed the button to do that.

 

What do you think?  Does it do much?



#7
Kindos7

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This is true.  Talk about a failed set of things this week.  Sorry everybody.
 
The 500MC wasn't really getting used, of all the crazy things.  Most accounts never even spent it, and given that the only reason it was added in the first place was to increase conversion rates (which didn't happen at all), we dropped it. Well, I was the one that pushed the button to do that.
 
What do you think?  Does it do much?



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#8
JeffMagnum

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The 500MC wasn't really getting used, of all the crazy things.  Most accounts never even spent it, and given that the only reason it was added in the first place was to increase conversion rates (which didn't happen at all), we dropped it.

 

I don't follow this logic. Did it take a significant amount of work to maintain the 500 MC reward or something? If not, time is being spent on doing absolutely nothing but making the game worse for the people who would use the reward while neither improving the game for the players who wouldn't nor easing the dev workload. Literally no one benefits from this change unless it somehow increases conversion rates by an appreciable percentage. 


Edited by JeffMagnum, 30 May 2015 - 02:00 PM.

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#9
ReEvolve

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The 500MC wasn't really getting used, of all the crazy things.  Most accounts never even spent it, and given that the only reason it was added in the first place was to increase conversion rates (which didn't happen at all), we dropped it.

 
"Hm, only few people used free stuff." "Let's remove it so nobody can use it!"

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So, some people did use it. Most players at least appreciated the free 500 MC. It was a nice gesture. Something you could tell people to get them over their "all F2P are just trying to rip you off" mindset.

Also: Removing something that players got for free before without any announcements seems shady. Hey, it's not like Reloaded already has a bad reputation for money grabbing, right? *looks at APB* oh wait...


Edited by ReEvolve, 30 May 2015 - 02:01 PM.

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#10
Anichkov3

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Thank you!


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#11
capnjosh

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Loads of web sites and games are actively running multivariate tests that vary things like button colors, landing pages, slight changes to where reviews are placed on a page, slight changes to what free offers new users receive, etc.  This 500MC change is purely that, albeit one that requires minimal man-hours ;)

 

What's your opinion on cohort-based product tweaks?  That and slight changes to, say, web site content/functionality with the aim of seeing what changes affect sales/conversion rates/whatever?



#12
SatelliteJack

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What's your opinion on cohort-based product tweaks?  That and slight changes to, say, web site content/functionality with the aim of seeing what changes affect sales/conversion rates/whatever?

 

Clarification, pl0x?

 

The 500MC was a really great way to introduce players to the idea of buying swag. I remember when I got it, I went straight to the shop to see what I could get. While 500 didn't really get me anywhere, the time I spent in the shop looking at all the cool stuff made me want it. It isn't much, but it can really point people towards the shop and make them want stuff. Did that sentence make sense? Was that even English? I dunno. Also, regarding the axxe pricing, is it a learning thing? Like, more accessible axes are cheaper, while the more difficult ones are more expensive?


Edited by SatelliteJack, 30 May 2015 - 02:14 PM.

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#13
Nept

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Clarification, pl0x?

 

The 500MC was a really great way to introduce players to the idea of buying swag. I remember when I got it, I went straight to the shop to see what I could get. While 500 didn't really get me anywhere, the time I spent in the shop looking at all the cool stuff made me want it. It isn't much, but it can really point people towards the shop and make them want stuff. Did that sentence make sense?

 

That.



#14
Nov8tr

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And how about the bobble heads? 360 MC for a item that does nothing, No one but the owner ever sees it. And it is three hundred sixty MC. Wow. It should never have been that cost which is why not one single one of my mech's has one. I'd like one but am not going to pay that for it for sure. Maybe 48 MC. Definetly way under a 100 MC would be in line. And yes I did use the 500 MC on my mechs to buy skins, repair bots, etc. In fact I've never met anyone who didn't use it. So " most people" never used it is a bit odd. If you are goin to replace it, thank you not just for me but tor the people who will use it. It takes not much more than pushing a "button" to put it back. Thanks and take care.

 

*EDIT* BTW just thought I'd add the real amount I've dropped on this game is close to $300. So yeah I support the game.


Edited by Nov8tr, 30 May 2015 - 02:18 PM.

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#15
capnjosh

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I guess I should emphasize that the change to the 500MC is rooted in a desire to find out what happens.  It's more of an A/B test than a design change.  The whole reason it had been added back in the day was in the hope of getting more people to become interested in the store. However, it didn't really have a significant effect on that, believe it or not.  If there's no perceptible change, then we'll try something different.  Nothing drastic and permanent.  Ideally, we're randomly select users to receive different stuff, and then compare the outcome.  Did some item/currency/experience result in a significantly higher percentage of users purchasing/playing?  That's what we're after here.


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#16
JeffMagnum

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Loads of web sites and games are actively running multivariate tests that vary things like button colors, landing pages, slight changes to where reviews are placed on a page, slight changes to what free offers new users receive, etc.  This 500MC change is purely that, albeit one that requires minimal man-hours ;)

 

What's your opinion on cohort-based product tweaks?  That and slight changes to, say, web site content/functionality with the aim of seeing what changes affect sales/conversion rates/whatever?

 

I think a collaborative system in which proposed tweaks are posted to the forums for discussion before implementation is a better idea than just going ahead with things that could potentially have a negative impact on the playerbase without any community input. One of the things people disliked about ADH was their tendency to make changes that ultimately ended up being bad for player retention and the game in general despite the advice of players with early access to their plans. HAB (at least HAB1, since that's what I was in) was universally against a lot of the the Ascension build, but ADH went with almost all their original ideas anyway and wrecked Hawken's balance until most of the damage was undone in the Steam patch. There was another longer-term early-access group, and it was apparently the same story there. 

 

Obviously sweeping changes to gameplay aren't equivalent to minor adjustments like this, but the point still stands that an almost universally negative reaction to a proposal is a pretty good indicator that the change might be worth reconsidering. 


Edited by JeffMagnum, 30 May 2015 - 02:27 PM.

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#17
talon70

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The 'thanks for playing' reward should be put back to at least 750mc now more would be better. Get people hooked!

 

The data has got to show charging so much for so little is a failed economic system. Try it the other way around. More players buying stuff will eventually come.

 

Edit, I want to add the fact everyone should have a cool skin or 2. Its part of the game and with that new pilots will feel more included imo.


Edited by talon70, 30 May 2015 - 02:30 PM.


#18
JeffMagnum

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What do you think about encouraging conversion via a Warframe-esque system that occasionally gives out 25-75% MC discounts (obviously the 50% and especially the 75% would be less common) on login that last for a day or two? The rarity of the more significant discounts combined with them being time-limited seems to push a lot of people to buy things, plus it'd be a strictly positive change in terms of the effects on players. 


Edited by JeffMagnum, 30 May 2015 - 02:38 PM.

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#19
Pastorius

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"The camel is a horse designed by committee"

 

I don't think we can expect Josh to run every decision by the community before he implements it.

 

Nothing will ever get done.  


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#20
IareDave

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I don't mind the change, since it literally effects no one on the forums and new players won't notice a difference. If Josh is doing this for research purposes, then go for it.

It's Reloaded's game, not the community's. They make the decisions, we give feedback, they make some changes based on feedback, and that's the cycle of development.
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#21
capnjosh

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What do you think about encouraging conversion via a Warframe-esque system that occasionally gives out 25-75% MC discounts (obviously the 50% and especially the 75% would be less common) on login that last for a day or two? The rarity of the more significant discounts combined with them being time-limited seems to push a lot of people to buy things, plus it'd be a strictly positive change in terms of the effects on players. 

 

There's a lot of evidence to support this sort of an approach to helping with monetization.  I think it'd be kinda personally.  I'd hope it would have a significant impact - hopefully the dev time wouldn't be too bad.


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#22
JeffMagnum

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"The camel is a horse designed by committee"

 

I don't think we can expect Josh to run every decision by the community before he implements it.

 

Nothing will ever get done.  

 

That's not what I'm implying should happen. Minor balance changes based on feedback or easily-adjustable additions of content to the game are one thing; something like this that literally not a single person asked for and that appears purely negative from the viewpoint of a user is another. More generally, is it less work to have a repeat of Ascension or to get feedback from experienced users on planned major changes prior to dedicating significant resources to them? 

 

And honestly I know this isn't a huge issue that'll affect too many people, but it just looks bad to people who know 500 MC has been awarded in the past. Encouraging conversion by taking existing things away feels dirty compared to incentivizing purchases through positive means. If there are two equally effective ways of increasing the amount of money the game makes, imo the one that either preserves or enhances the current experience for existing and new players should be chosen. 


Edited by JeffMagnum, 30 May 2015 - 03:07 PM.

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#23
capnjosh

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In terms of multivariate testing, ideally, we'd have something like the Optimizely SDK so we could do multivariate tests on new user experience stuff on the fly (without requiring patches).  Granted, they're only doing it for mobile, so we can't.  That kind of ability makes devs go all wide-eyed at the prospect of fairly painless A/B testing.

 

The desire is to find out if there are unexpected things that actually make the game easier to understand and enjoy.  This 500MC thing was a low-overhead way to at least start to get some insight into how it affects things.



#24
talon70

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There is much more intangible value to giving a new pilot a perk like the 500mc than can really be measured. Most around this forum do not care  about it one bit. The person it has value to will be the one that did not continue playing.


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#25
JeffMagnum

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From what I've heard from a ton of new players, it seems like a good portion aren't aware of how to purchase cosmetics. I don't even know how many times I've gotten comments like "cool mech, how did you make it look like that?" in chat before from people who have zero cosmetics equipped. Whenever I get put into matches with brand new players due to Hawken matchmaking being Hawken matchmaking, I like to ask about how the game's going for them so far and what they need help with. Questions about customization come up constantly, as do questions about which mech to buy next and what items and internals are good.

 

What about awarding 500 MC upon completion of the tutorial and then bringing up the Assault's cosmetics tab with a text box like "Here's some MC to get you started. Make sure to customize your mech before you head out to battle!"? At an hour of playtime, a 1-2 day discount of 50% could be given out in lieu of MC to promote conversion among people who enjoyed their first few matches, and at 10 hours, maybe give out a 75% one too. 

 

How difficult would something along those lines be to code?


Edited by JeffMagnum, 30 May 2015 - 03:39 PM.

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#26
Hijinks_The_Turtle

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*snip*

I really like this idea, but I ran out of likes.

 

Props to the captain though, I'm still pretty shocked about all this honesty and other stuff.



#27
Dawn_of_Ash

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In terms of multivariate testing, ideally, we'd have something like the Optimizely SDK so we could do multivariate tests on new user experience stuff on the fly (without requiring patches).  Granted, they're only doing it for mobile, so we can't.  That kind of ability makes devs go all wide-eyed at the prospect of fairly painless A/B testing.

 

The desire is to find out if there are unexpected things that actually make the game easier to understand and enjoy.  This 500MC thing was a low-overhead way to at least start to get some insight into how it affects things.

 

Out of curiousness, CapnJosh, what are you expecting to happen after you removed the 500MC? Is it just purely an experiment to see something? And what is this something?

 

One thing that I can say about my experience with that 400 MC (I swear I got 400 ;(), is that I only finally finished using it yesterday when the half-price camos, thrusters etc. had happened. Reason why I did so was I was conserving it so when I do buy more MC, I'd have a greater choice, but since this special came before that I got that special.

 

But I can tell you another story that is not mine, but one of my friends'. I advertised this game like crazy when I first got addicted to it and I almost forced my friends to get it. Needless to say, they didn't like it. At all. One said that it was a "typical first person shooter with not many differences to other FPS's" - but this friend actually gave the game the fairest of trials. One thing he wanted was to get the Hawkins for his Brawler, but at the time, people only got that 400MC, which was not enough for the Hawkins. I told him to grind so he can just get it with normal money and he gave up on the game, putting it down and never picking it up again. The problems with the weapon pricing has been fixed but if any other person follows this line of thought, removing that MC was a mistake in my books.

 

As Jeff said, my friend may not have figured it out if I had not told him about the cosmetics - which by the way he didn't really care about since he felt the grind was too much.

 

I'm for Jeff's idea.



#28
crockrocket

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The 500 mc is a good idea. Get people to spend money on camos and fuzzy bunny off the bat and they're more likely to spend money later.


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#29
DM30

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What do you think about encouraging conversion via a Warframe-esque system that occasionally gives out 25-75% MC discounts (obviously the 50% and especially the 75% would be less common) on login that last for a day or two? The rarity of the more significant discounts combined with them being time-limited seems to push a lot of people to buy things, plus it'd be a strictly positive change in terms of the effects on players. 

I can vouch for this. This very system has pushed me into spending money on the game twice already. The fact that there's some randomness and a time limit on it just amplifies this, rather than it being something predictable.

 

Another thing: Like the 500 MC bonus, Warframe gives players a small amount of starting paid-for currency to give them a taste of what they can get with more. Doesn't seem to be hurting them at all.


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#30
capnjosh

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From what I've heard from a ton of new players, it seems like a good portion aren't aware of how to purchase cosmetics. I don't even know how many times I've gotten comments like "cool mech, how did you make it look like that?" in chat before from people who have zero cosmetics equipped. Whenever I get put into matches with brand new players due to Hawken matchmaking being Hawken matchmaking, I like to ask about how the game's going for them so far and what they need help with. Questions about customization come up constantly, as do questions about which mech to buy next and what items and internals are good.

 

What about awarding 500 MC upon completion of the tutorial and then bringing up the Assault's cosmetics tab with a text box like "Here's some MC to get you started. Make sure to customize your mech before you head out to battle!"? At an hour of playtime, a 1-2 day discount of 50% could be given out in lieu of MC to promote conversion among people who enjoyed their first few matches, and at 10 hours, maybe give out a 75% one too. 

 

How difficult would something along those lines be to code?

 

That's good stuff.  Before, the 500MC just sort of magically appeared, but with a scheme such as this, it's highlighted and shown how to use it.  I like it.

 

In terms of how much effort it should be to implement, it shouldn't be too bad, given the mechanics involved are already existing with previous phases of the tutorial.  I can guarantee you this has gone into the backlog ;)


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#31
OmegaNull

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At least you owned up to it. That makes you a good man.


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#32
BaronSaturday

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That's good stuff. Before, the 500MC just sort of magically appeared, but with a scheme such as this, it's highlighted and shown how to use it. I like it.

In terms of how much effort it should be to implement, it shouldn't be too bad, given the mechanics involved are already existing with previous phases of the tutorial. I can guarantee you this has gone into the backlog ;)


I agree. Jeff is awesome.

To the rest of the conversation (let's not do physics again either cause I'll make videos...) I know that there are things that have to happen behind the scenes. My recommendation is to save it all for a patch and release patch notes, or to release a little news post on the front page of the client as changes are made.

I know this change shouldn't effect us at all, but you have to remember, a lot of us stuck it out through the dark times. A lot of us have supported this game with our wallets even when there was no hope. We want to feel supported too. That our investment remains intact and informed. We love HAWKEN, I have a storied history with ReLoaded. I want both of these things to succeed, but I want to be in the know and for the most part that has been the case.

With that in mind, @Iaredave, this is all of our game. Without us and without ReLoaded, this game fails. They make the rules, but we give the game value. Period. HAWKEN isn't a one-off release. It is purpose built to continually be in development. In order to continue to develop, it needs us as much as it needs ReLoaded. This isn't arguable. This is a fact. HAWKEN won't make it because APB or Fallen Earth is successful. It will make it because HAWKEN is successful and I promise you, it will become ReLoaded-s premier product. We just have to get from here to there with careful, mindful, and informed decisions.
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#33
JeffMagnum

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That's good stuff.  Before, the 500MC just sort of magically appeared, but with a scheme such as this, it's highlighted and shown how to use it.  I like it.

 

In terms of how much effort it should be to implement, it shouldn't be too bad, given the mechanics involved are already existing with previous phases of the tutorial.  I can guarantee you this has gone into the backlog ;)

 

I tried to build it on systems that already exist to cut down on development time, but I wasn't sure if there was some aspect to it that would complicate things. I'm glad it won't be too much of an issue.

 

I was curious about what new players thought of that idea, so I made a fresh account and idled around in the ~1400 MMR server I got placed in for a couple of hours earlier tonight. Everyone who responded to my questions about monetization seemed to like temporary discounts as a means of encouraging purchases, but what surprised me a little was that there were quite a few players who had no idea cosmetics even existed, much less how to purchase them. People who did know usually only had a basic grasp on what was available--one person suggested the ability to change parts out, and he and another player were both surprised when I told them that's already possible. I've heard a lot of similar things in the past too, so I don't blame people for not purchasing MC when they have no idea what they can even buy with it. 


Edited by JeffMagnum, 30 May 2015 - 07:51 PM.

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#34
Comfortably_Numb

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OK glad to see that happening soon(ish?) Thanks. And yes Baron you got that dead on mate. :thumbsup:


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#35
Xpander

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Some clarity, lots of clarity, would definitely be appreciated. As an example, I only found out about the sale by accident via twitter. Running back here to buy things, some things looked cheaper, some didn't; I really couldn't tell where the sales were and by proxy, what the value proposition was. 

 

 

In addition, I really recommend that you guys consider investing in some user experience muscle. I made a post about the UX and information architecture failings of Hawken last year, and just about all of those concerns stand (understandably so with the state of the game last year and your team just taking on the handling of this game). While that's ok, and there are some aforementioned monetization models and tactics that has been used successfully that you guys have adopted, for this game to thrive you'll have to fix a LOT of the UX debt that you guys inherited.

 

For example, doing multivariate testing for a web product is typically done on variables with very low perceived value, and relies on a considerable amount of volume and some degree of general user trust. Doing that with actual content with perceived value in a game that's just been revived from the dead may be a very dangerous thing to do. On top of that, while there may very well be value in offering incentives or tasters following the end of an onboarding process, simply throwing elements into the UI may end up contributing to the worsening of the experience outside of the game play. 

 

Just some things to think about.


Edited by Xpander, 30 May 2015 - 09:43 PM.


#36
System64

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This is true.  Talk about a failed set of things this week.  Sorry everybody.

 

The 500MC wasn't really getting used, of all the crazy things.  Most accounts never even spent it, and given that the only reason it was added in the first place was to increase conversion rates (which didn't happen at all), we dropped it. Well, I was the one that pushed the button to do that.

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memecenter_1391896158953_443_zpsbd6c572c

personally i think that's a sign :|


Edited by ??ß?ØØƒ??, 31 May 2015 - 05:26 AM.

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#37
-Tj-

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With friends who I introduced to the game, I told them there was an MC bonus for playing for an hour. New players, I'm not sure they would know about it. A lot of casual phone games I've tried use a kind of tutorial to get players interested in spending, and most give "free" currency to try out. Basically, the player is given free money but are immediately forced to use it in the tutorial. Maybe something like that could work here, give the player free MC, but force them to use it on something, or a bunch of somethings. I would also suggest that if such a system were put in place, that there be some sort of explanation that cosmetic items can only be purchased with MC, while any gameplay-related items can immediately or eventually be purchased with the free HC currency.


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#38
Merl61

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All I have to say on this issue is this. Josh needs to be straight up about whatever changes are made, however small. I appreciate him owning up and engaging in conversation. We all have the goal of retaining new players. We need to work together to get that done.

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Thanks to Badtings for this awesome banner!


#39
WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW

WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW

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(1) 500 MC made me browse the store and buy things.

(2) I wish I had more MC.

(3) I looked at the MC prices and I winced. I no longer cared about spending money on Hawken.

 

This is my feedback. I hope this helps.


Edited by WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW, 31 May 2015 - 12:34 PM.

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Thank you for your time,

 

WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW


#40
Elite_is_salty

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post cuz wwww is breaking the forums.


The PC community is the red headed step child Reloaded never wanted but got saddled with when they married the PC community's mother.

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Shoutout to mah real Africans out there.





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