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#1
Spearkirby

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I know this may seem silly but i need to spaeak against it because in my opinion it can turn a enjoyable server into a just bad experience don't judge me but i think the hellfire missiles should be nerfed because they are too op.

I know many people will disagree (im looking at you spammers) but they lock on way too quickly and they do too much damage.

this post is short and i'm not even sure if im doing this right but anyone whos been there before reply with something so maybe we can put an end to noobs spamming missiles just to kill because they are just too bad to learn the game and get good and in my opinion it is a decently bad issue  



#2
HubbaBubba9849

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It's just a phase. You'll grow out of it.


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#3
coldform

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Hell fire lock is easily defeated with either utilizing cover (walk out of cover, and dodge back in, boosting for cover), or timing your dodge to avoid the barrage - one of the harder tricks to master, but will reinforce correct dodge technique, as it can be applied to most any other fight.

Also, the abilities and primary weapons of mechs with hellfires are pretty lame:

Bruser has the classic assault loadout, but it's ability is very weak.

Rocketeer is just bad. The turret mode is simply an invitation to slodeth, and the primaries - with the exception of the seeker - just dont do well on the rocky.

Edited by (TDM)coldform, 16 December 2015 - 10:58 PM.

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I like going against the best of any game I play. Helps you in the long run n motivates u to do more. Always room for improvement not failure

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czerofive-Today at 2:22 AM > got banned from playing lazertag - I used a knife to conserve ammo

FIRST OFF WHAT THE FUZZ IS A "SHILL"


#4
Amidatelion

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I know this may seem silly but i need to spaeak against it because in my opinion it can turn a enjoyable server into a just bad experience don't judge me but i think the hellfire missiles should be nerfed because they are too op.

I know many people will disagree (im looking at you spammers) but they lock on way too quickly and they do too much damage.

this post is short and i'm not even sure if im doing this right but anyone whos been there before reply with something so maybe we can put an end to noobs spamming missiles just to kill because they are just too bad to learn the game and get good and in my opinion it is a decently bad issue  

 

 

Ok, free tips:

 

  1. Train yourself to love the lock-on noise. It is the game telling you that a projectile weapon is incoming, which it will do for literally no other weapon
  2. Find that weapon. Do you see it? Good.
  3. Boost in one direction, watching the pretty little lights get closer to you.
  4. When they are about to hit, dodge in the opposite direction you were boosting.
  5. Laugh at the whiff. Laugh at it.

Hellfires are the worst goddamn weapon in the game. Homing capabilities are worthless against anyone with a basic understanding of the movement system, terrain or timing. They do less damage than a TOW, are less versatile,  and are slower. With practice, you too will roflstomp hellfire mechs.


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#5
kaiserschmarrn_

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"Also Berserker should have two vulcans that shoot EMPs"

 

     - This guy, probably


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#6
nepacaka

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Hellfires are the worst goddamn weapon in the game.

 

at the same time, HF is a devastating secondary against nubs


Edited by nepacaka, 17 December 2015 - 12:17 AM.

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#7
Guns_N_Rozer

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i think Bruiser and Rocketer has totally different fun , im really enjoying these mechs todays .hellfire , this is god damm skillfire 


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#8
dorobo

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also you can bait dodge ant slam them with those firehells in the face


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#9
Hyginos

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hellfires deal 11% less damage, have a 30% slower fire rate (even slower if you lock every shot), have a slower missile speed, and lack air detonation as compared to the TOW rocket.

 

They are hard countered by good positioning, L-dodges, sabots, and players who are not also using hellfires.

 

EDIT: Imma go ahead and throw this out there again because it may be helpful.

 

E8WFaRw.png


Edited by Hyginos, 17 December 2015 - 08:27 AM.

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MFW Howken

 

My post count is neat.


#10
1uster

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To be clear: I don't think HF need a nerf BUT

everytime the HF discussion comes up, some high MMR players chime in and say it's so weak, you can dodge them so easy etc.

Well yeah, not on a pub, on open maps, with two or three of them. It's just annoying as hell.

And IMHO that's the reason this discussion comes up so often.


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#11
StubbornPuppet

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They may be annoying on open maps and annoying to new players, but that has nothing at all to do with their balance in the scheme of the game.  They are not OP when locked and at a distance and they are pretty darn UP at anything from mid-range to close-quarters because their dumbfire is so lousy.

 

Annoying is a characteristic that, perhaps, is the only saving grace of Hellfires.  Their main use, in their current state of unfinished balance (remembering that Adhesive was in the middle of completely rebalancing them, starting by seriously nerfing their speed and tracking... and then quit working on the game) is as a deterrent suppression device - just to help keep enemies dodging and looking for cover instead of advancing an objective.

 

As for dodging them in the open: The best way is to boost towards them and then make a hard left or right turn at the last moment.  By the way, I am a fuzzy bunny (for some reason "s c r u b" is a dirty word) - only around 1800-1950 MMR at any given moment.  I can do it.


Edited by StubbornPuppet, 17 December 2015 - 08:29 AM.

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To be serious for a moment this is just a joke

 


#12
DallasCreeper

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Honestly, hellfires are more of an annoyance than anything else, but fighting 6 seeketeers on bunker is fuzzy bunny


Edited by DallasCreeper, 17 December 2015 - 07:35 AM.

 

Spoiler

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Ridding the world of evil, one Berzerker at a time.


#13
peacecraftSLD

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I like to use Hell Fires. They are fun to use. They are harder to use effectively than the TOW. One bad angled shot and those Hell Fires are missing the target or running into a wall.


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#14
CoshCaust

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Honestly haven't read every comment because i know exactly what established players are saying, but i'll remind you all of the counters to the obvious arguments:

 

- OFTEN, Hellfires blow up on you hilariously far away because Hawken interweb is bestest interweb; literally sometimes you can't dodge them- or to be more precise, you would have to make a mistake to successfully dodge them (by dodging far too early, for example), or make an educated guess at how hilariously off they will be in their contact, and adjust accordingly

- They lock onto invisible targets- um what? Seriously what were the devs thinking here? My mech is incapable of detecting invisible enemies (yeah that's kind of the point isn't it- why invisibility exists. You are not marked by the HUD and are harder to see), so why the shenanigans can my mech LOCK ONTO that invisible mech with rockets??

- They lock on instantly- again, depending on how shite Hawken's connection feels at the given moment, you are likely utterly incapable of avoiding the lock-on; standing right next to cover and hear beeping, move one step to cover, still got locked onto (this might be a non-issue if Hawken had less lag problems)

 

Do i feel Hellfires are OP? God no. Do i feel they're hard to beat? God no. Do i feel they're functioning appropriately? Jesus christ in heaven of course not.

 

They shouldn't lock onto invisible people.

They should take longer to lock on (maybe not, like i said it's hard to say because lag).

If the above fixes to the current clusterfuq of a weapon nerf said weapon too much, then add some damage.


Edited by CoshCaust, 17 December 2015 - 03:37 PM.


#15
nepacaka

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They shouldn't lock onto invisible people.

They should take longer to lock on (maybe not, like i said it's hard to say because lag).

If the above fixes to the current clusterfuq of a weapon nerf said weapon too much, then add some damage.

 

in current statement i feel that HF don't have a role in game.

to be more good i feel it should be returned to pre-ascention form, like high damage dealer weapon with slow speed rockets.
i.e.
- Higher Secondary damage (about 150-155 maybe)
- Very smooth rockets turning angle (for better shots from corner)
- no "beep" warning sound, but rockets whould be visible like TOW or GL (with visible red fire trails+current smoke)
- Slower reloading time.
- Slower rockets speed.
- faster lockOn, and take guiding on target longer (while LockOn activate, for more comfortable to use HF)
- Higher spread in shotgun mode.
(high risk, high reward if hit. Totally turn rocketeer into support, without team it may be useless, but with team he can deal high damage from distance, and +/- use it like a splash damage from short distance, but not very effective)

it make it easy to dodge if you see it. But if rocketeer stand on flank, or you not see him, he can deal you high unexpected damage from any distance, if you not use corners. at the same time any mech can beat him 1v1 easily.

another variant which i see, leave it as is, and delete warning sound from rockets.
It is stupid that weapon maded for Long-range combat every-time say to you: "Hey man! we are HF rockets! We are flying to you and kill you right now! Please, don't use dodge, or we miss! :D"

it's like, if everytime when sharpshooter look at you with zoom, you'll bewared about it with special "ding-dong"sound.

Or maybe, activate HF sound only if you stand in 100m range near with rocketeer. If you stand far, you not hear warning sound.
 


Edited by nepacaka, 17 December 2015 - 04:02 PM.

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#16
SS396

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- They lock onto invisible targets- um what? Seriously what were the devs thinking here? My mech is incapable of detecting invisible enemies (yeah that's kind of the point isn't it- why invisibility exists. You are not marked by the HUD and are harder to see), so why the shenanigans can my mech LOCK ONTO that invisible mech with rockets??

First, cloaked does not equal invisible. Second just because something isn't in the visible spectrum of light, does not mean it cannot be detected by other means. For example, if the hellfires used infrared (heat signature detection) or radar (reflection detection) to detect mechs, it has absolutely nothing to do with requiring that it be visible. Many aircraft weapons systems can detect and track targets well out of visual range, and while completely obscured by clouds or smoke. And lastly, the mechanic you are salty about was added to counter the fact that if you were invisible, you are completely undetectable. There has to be some way to counter a mech in cloak.

- They lock on instantly- again, depending on how shite Hawken's connection feels at the given moment, you are likely utterly incapable of avoiding the lock-on; standing right next to cover and hear beeping, move one step to cover, still got locked onto (this might be a non-issue if Hawken had less lag problems)

No, no they don't. I suggest you actually use them once so you can see how long it takes to get a lock on someone, its far from instant.

They shouldn't lock onto invisible people.
They should take longer to lock on (maybe not, like i said it's hard to say because lag).
If the above fixes to the current clusterfuq of a weapon nerf said weapon too much, then add some damage.

No, no they are fine where they are at.

I feel your suggestions would make cloaked mechs even more powerful, while at the same time making hellfires even more useless.

[DELETED]

 

fuzzy bunny you CZeroFive 


#17
6ixxer

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Accept the challenge.

Don't change Hellfires, change your play.

After adjust your playstyle you will get other benefits that transfer to good movement/avoidance in general.


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#18
_incitatus

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To be clear: I don't think HF need a nerf BUT
everytime the HF discussion comes up, some high MMR players chime in and say it's so weak, you can dodge them so easy etc.
Well yeah, not on a pub, on open maps, with two or three of them. It's just annoying as hell.
And IMHO that's the reason this discussion comes up so often.


Yup, it's a problem with players stacking mechs.

Not the hellfires themselves.
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#19
nepacaka

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Accept the challenge.
Don't change Hellfires, change your play.
After adjust your playstyle you will get other benefits that transfer to good movement/avoidance in general.

It doesn't halp if you're trying to play on rocketeer against SS for example. SS just kill you, and you just deal with it. SS use very simple tactics, slug+sabot, dodge behind cover. And rocketeer just useless at any range in this situation. So, why you need play on rocketeer? This mech just unplayable if you not stacking it on Bunker.
I actually think, this mech (like and bruiser) should be totally reworked. Like and balance between a- and c-classes, and burst/sustain weapons.

Current balance working different in siege/TDM, completely fail in siege mode, where team playing in 5 c-class+tech. Some really OP weapon combination, while other variants just weaker.

Edited by nepacaka, 17 December 2015 - 05:10 PM.

Kompotka 3000. 2D ha?ken game: https://community.pl...ve/?hl=kompotka

Interceptor, B-Class mech concept: https://community.pl...itdefence-mech/

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#20
Dawn_of_Ash

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I actually think, this mech (like and bruiser) should be totally reworked. Like and balance between a- and c-classes, and burst/sustain weapons.

 

What would you suggest then? I agree with you that something needs to happen regarding the current Rocketeer - if that'd be an item drop (flares) or something else, and I would agree with a rework as well. However, the Rocketeer (and Brusier, to an extent) have unique playstyles that appeal to me in this soon-becoming generic FPS game and I don't want to lose that difference. Any reworks on the Rocketeer should not recreate it, but restyle it. Otherwise I fear that the name of the mech itself would need to change.



#21
DM30

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- They lock on instantly- again, depending on how shite Hawken's connection feels at the given moment, you are likely utterly incapable of avoiding the lock-on; standing right next to cover and hear beeping, move one step to cover, still got locked onto (this might be a non-issue if Hawken had less lag problems)

 

Just want to expand on this one a little bit, since lag isn't really a factor in how the lock-on works if I'm reading this right. Locking on isn't "instant" in that there's a delay before the missiles will track when you fire them, BUT as soon as a lock-on begins it's guaranteed no matter what. If the crosshair flicks over a mech for the smallest millisecond, or a mech is standing completely behind cover except for one pixel that the crosshair then touches, the missiles will lock on even if the target breaks line of sight completely before the lock is finished. It's this function that enables a lot of the curve trick-shots to get around cover, and is also behind a lot of the hate for the weapon I think.

 

I've said it before, but I do think that hellfires could use a buff because they are generally weak, BUT if they get one the guaranteed lock-on functionality needs to change so that the weapon isn't just free damage. Make it so that they do more damage and/or hit more reliably, AND make it so that players have to keep their crosshairs trained on a target for the entire duration of the lock until that lock is actually achieved. Then I think they would be in an okay place (maybe).


Edited by DM30, 17 December 2015 - 06:49 PM.

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Hawken gameplay

 

TPG Playlists -- Season 2 | Season 3


#22
Dawn_of_Ash

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I've said it before, but I do think that hellfires could use a buff because they are generally weak, BUT if they get one the guaranteed lock-on functionality needs to change so that the weapon isn't just free damage. Make it so that they do more damage and/or hit more reliably, AND make it so that players have to keep their crosshairs trained on a target for the entire duration of the lock until that lock is actually achieved. Then I think they would be in an okay place (maybe).

 

I like this idea. If you actually have to keep track of the opponent and their movements it requires more actual skill than the current Rocketeer. I would say to add a bigger lock-on radius and the ability to lock-on through walls to counter-act this though because most of the time people just duck behind cover as soon as they hear the alarms of being locked-on. Either that, or the time it takes to lock-on could be reduced - which would change things very dramatically regarding the mech. As a buff, I would recommend flight-speed because those rockets are freaking slow - another factor why they are almost useless in high-mmr games.



#23
CoshCaust

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First, cloaked does not equal invisible. Second just because something isn't in the visible spectrum of light, does not mean it cannot be detected by other means. For example, if the hellfires used infrared (heat signature detection) or radar (reflection detection) to detect mechs, it has absolutely nothing to do with requiring that it be visible. Many aircraft weapons systems can detect and track targets well out of visual range, and while completely obscured by clouds or smoke. And lastly, the mechanic you are salty about was added to counter the fact that if you were invisible, you are completely undetectable. There has to be some way to counter a mech in cloak.

You're thinking too deeply in the wrong direction. In no universe, real or fictional, would it make even a shred of sense for the following to happen, which happens in Hawken:

- Visual targeting systems for pilot display enemies

- Targeting systems display fails against cloaked mechs

- But slap this gun on a mech and the gun will fire at these undetectable enemies for you!

Like i'm trying to lay it out clearly, but it's already as clear as it can get.

The targeting systems cannot detect cloaked enemies, but they can detect cloaked enemies. You see what i'm saying? It's batshit crazy. Yes, yes, i know you could design a weapon to work in this way, but nobody ever would. If the gun detects the enemy, engineers would put the bare arse minimum effort into even rudimentarily visualizing the detection, because the data is already gathered, it just requires displaying at that point.

There has to be some way to counter a mech in cloak? No. No actually definitely not- the shortcomings of an ability should be built into the ability, not weapons which belong to only one specific type of mech. The Inf loses it's cloak to fuel which is quite well and good- harsh if anything, but balanced i feel. The predator's ability has to reset if it takes any damage.

I doubt you really believe the devs chose to give the HF this cloak-detection ability specifically to counter cloaking- you know why they did it? Because that was the default behavior of the code- they'd have to put work into making the HF not work on cloaked enemies.

 

No, no they don't. I suggest you actually use them once so you can see how long it takes to get a lock on someone, its far from instant.

See DM's post. You've got me pinned that i don't use them, but it's clearly common knowledge that the lock-on time is extremely short. And (like i explained before) there is no room for argument when i note the fact that many times i've been locked onto - factoring in lag - the lock-on is complete real-time before i am even notified client-side; seriously i've been 99% in cover, heard the beep, instantly moved to 100% cover, missiles incoming. It's not rare.

 

No, no they are fine where they are at.

No, they were implemented lazily, but two fuzzy bunnyups ended up actually making them pretty balanced. Remember, i'm not saying they're OP or UP- just that they've got little issues that should be fixed.

 

I feel your suggestions would make cloaked mechs even more powerful, while at the same time making hellfires even more useless.

One mech shouldn't have some accidental, roundabout advantage against cloaked mechs due to one subtle attribute of one of its weapons.

You're probably right though, which is why i suggested a buff after the fixes.

And i like DM's idea; i could see Hellfires working out like this:

- Don't lock to cloaked mechs

- Take longer to lock on

- Keep their lock-on longer [after looking away]

- Do more damage


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#24
nepacaka

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- Don't lock to cloaked mechs

Bad idea. Infiltrator come to you, you see infiltrator, but can't do nothing, because your secondary not working. Infiltrator Not invisible. Anyone can easily see infiltrator if it stand in front of you. His invisibility working only if he stand behing you.

Another good situation, you fight with infil, infil have 5 HP. He press shift+s and activate ability and runaway. Rocketeer can't kill him. He see infil, but can't do nothing with your secondary.

Every player (except nubs) clearly see infiltrator in cloak. If you trying walking in cloack in front of brawler, he just kill you from flak and TOW, despite that fact that he don't have HF. He still easily can see you.

Edited by nepacaka, 17 December 2015 - 10:51 PM.

Kompotka 3000. 2D ha?ken game: https://community.pl...ve/?hl=kompotka

Interceptor, B-Class mech concept: https://community.pl...itdefence-mech/

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#25
CoshCaust

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Bad idea. Infiltrator come to you, you see infiltrator, but can't do nothing, because your secondary not working. Infiltrator Not invisible. Anyone can easily see infiltrator if it stand in front of you. His invisibility working only if he stand behing you.

Another good situation, you fight with infil, infil have 5 HP. He press shift+s and activate ability and runaway. Rocketeer can't kill him. He see infil, but can't do nothing with your secondary.

Every player (except nubs) clearly see infiltrator in cloak. If you trying walking in cloack in front of brawler, he just kill you from flak and TOW, despite that fact that he don't have HF. He still easily can see you.

Cloaking = invisibility for all intents and purposes (both only affect visibility)- but yeah i know you're not 100% invisible.

Of course you can still use the non-lock function. You're strengthening my argument; you're right, cloaking only helps make you less visible to the player, but you are still clearly visible- it should do more than just make you a little harder to see, right? Well good news, it does! It nullifies the enemy's targeting system with regards to your mech (any indicator of your mech disappears from their HUD)- except that one weapon on that one mech...see? It's whack.

You can still do plenty- pursue, fire with the other function, fire with the other weapon- he only lost one thing, targeting systems for that one enemy- in fact he already lost all targeting systems against the cloaked mech, except one. And that's why it's weird/illogical.


Edited by CoshCaust, 18 December 2015 - 03:45 PM.


#26
Dawn_of_Ash

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See DM's post. You've got me pinned that i don't use them, but it's clearly common knowledge that the lock-on time is extremely short. And (like i explained before) there is no room for argument when i note the fact that many times i've been locked onto - factoring in lag - the lock-on is complete real-time before i am even notified client-side; seriously i've been 99% in cover, heard the beep, instantly moved to 100% cover, missiles incoming. It's not rare.

 

Wowowowowow...wow. Did I just hear that my beautiful Hellfires can actually hit their targets now because of the current instability of the servers? I better get back to playing!

 

As for the lock-on time - no, it's not short. I main Rocketeer so please listen for a sec and I'll try not to be extremely bias. DM mentioned that the skill required to start the lock-on is terrible (and I agree with it), however it takes some more time to actually lock on. You say that this lock-on time is too short but I can assure you that even with my measly MMR, it's too long as it is with 90% of people I play against because of the terribly slow travel time. By the time I finish my lock-on people are already moving for cover and by the time the missiles get there, they are well within safety range. Add that on top of the fact that people can literally dodge it without cover - which I'm fine with by the way - it leaves for a seriously underpowered mech.

 

I also can (kinda) understand the logic you are coming from with the cloak thing, but making it unable to detect a cloaked mech is actually kinda ridiculous. Against a Predator, this is less so because that mech cannot rush you without breaking its cloak. But for the Infiltrator, I'm saying a massive no to that. I've already had issues keeping A-class mechs away from my Rocketeer as it was because of my slow rate-of-fire weapons that by neutralizing my lock-on, on top of my slow-firing primary...that's just stupidly underpowered for a Rocketeer. That Infiltrator that is charging at me deserves to get wrecked for charging at me - a C-Class. Of course this issue would be solved with DM's suggestion.


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#27
ArchMech

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I know this may seem silly but i need to spaeak against it because in my opinion it can turn a enjoyable server into a just bad experience don't judge me but i think the hellfire missiles should be nerfed because they are too op.

I know many people will disagree (im looking at you spammers) but they lock on way too quickly and they do too much damage.

this post is short and i'm not even sure if im doing this right but anyone whos been there before reply with something so maybe we can put an end to noobs spamming missiles just to kill because they are just too bad to learn the game and get good and in my opinion it is a decently bad issue  

 

 

posts this but dies to everything regardless of whether he was hit with hellfires or not,

has a 0.00 KD

no assists

attempts to beat rocketeer by using CQC and loses anyway trading only 20% damage or less

has a 7% accuracy rating on every weapon

cant figure out how the rocketeers and bruisers lock on hellfires without turret mode but understands they can

is still trying to 360 no scope with max sensitivity and a ridiculously high DPI

does that about sum up your experience in hawken?

if it does, you sir have been trolled

meanwhile every post between first post and my post = To Long, Didn't Read, Probably Sucked


Edited by aFKingTroll, 18 December 2015 - 03:15 AM.

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don't mind me, i'm just on a crusade against humanity, by the end of my lifespan earth's population will be 8 billion+ trolls


#28
Hyginos

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One mech shouldn't have some accidental, roundabout advantage against cloaked mechs due to one subtle attribute of one of its weapons.

 

Considering the advantage is utterly negated by the problems associated with the weapon itself, I think it's something we can leave alone until HFs really get a thorough rework.


MFW Howken

 

My post count is neat.


#29
nepacaka

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Cloaking = invisibility

 

cloacking != invisibility. it is only hide you from radar. thats all.

 

but you are still clearly visible- it should do more than just make you a little harder to see, right?

 

if you not moving you visible less.

on current moment cloak-ability counter by scanners, when you shown on mini-map even if you in ability. it should be vice-versa, cloak should counter scanners, and totally hiding you from radar. It is how it should be!

but cloak shouldn't counter enemy weapons "just because". it not counter TOW or GL, and it shouldn't counter HF rockets and decrease HF main feature.


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Challenger, C-Class mech concept: https://community.pl...ccepted-thread/

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Kinetik, B-class mech concept: https://community.pl...ass-shotgunner/

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#30
nepacaka

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Wowowowowow...wow. Did I just hear that my beautiful Hellfires can actually hit their targets now because of the current instability of the servers? I better get back to playing!

 

As for the lock-on time - no, it's not short. I main Rocketeer so please listen for a sec and I'll try not to be extremely bias. DM mentioned that the skill required to start the lock-on is terrible (and I agree with it), however it takes some more time to actually lock on. You say that this lock-on time is too short but I can assure you that even with my measly MMR, it's too long as it is with 90% of people I play against because of the terribly slow travel time. By the time I finish my lock-on people are already moving for cover and by the time the missiles get there, they are well within safety range. Add that on top of the fact that people can literally dodge it without cover - which I'm fine with by the way - it leaves for a seriously underpowered mech.

 

I also can (kinda) understand the logic you are coming from with the cloak thing, but making it unable to detect a cloaked mech is actually kinda ridiculous. Against a Predator, this is less so because that mech cannot rush you without breaking its cloak. But for the Infiltrator, I'm saying a massive no to that. I've already had issues keeping A-class mechs away from my Rocketeer as it was because of my slow rate-of-fire weapons that by neutralizing my lock-on, on top of my slow-firing primary...that's just stupidly underpowered for a Rocketeer. That Infiltrator that is charging at me deserves to get wrecked for charging at me - a C-Class. Of course this issue would be solved with DM's suggestion.

try to use EOK or Heat on your rocketeer, and you have even more problems with this :D


Kompotka 3000. 2D ha?ken game: https://community.pl...ve/?hl=kompotka

Interceptor, B-Class mech concept: https://community.pl...itdefence-mech/

Challenger, C-Class mech concept: https://community.pl...ccepted-thread/

G2-Brawler, C-class mech concept: https://community.pl...pacaka-is-here/

Kinetik, B-class mech concept: https://community.pl...ass-shotgunner/

Melter, A-class mech concept: https://community.pl...-class-support/


#31
Superkamikazee

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Without seeker, rocketeer is dead in the water in almost every situation, hellfires are just there for a lucky shot, or catching a weakened straggler trying to run away. And the poor bruiser, hellfires are useless if you run the stock bruiser due to heat gen and limited range on the primary, and it has one of the weakest abilities next to the rocketeer. At least rocketeer can be used to cheese on bunker, bruiser can't do much on any map.

tl;dr hellfires are terrible, the mechs with hellfires are walking piles of trash. I wish they were fun to play, I used to love the bruiser. I miss my bruiser.

No crew


#32
nepacaka

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Bruiser saved a little with vulcan DPS (obviously, I talking about average pub matches), but with other weapons his DPS not enough to be good. After ascension he was good just because Vulcan was OP, and he has more viable ability + tuning. Now it is gone.
We need more work with rocketeer/bruiser and Vulcan-D balance.

Kompotka 3000. 2D ha?ken game: https://community.pl...ve/?hl=kompotka

Interceptor, B-Class mech concept: https://community.pl...itdefence-mech/

Challenger, C-Class mech concept: https://community.pl...ccepted-thread/

G2-Brawler, C-class mech concept: https://community.pl...pacaka-is-here/

Kinetik, B-class mech concept: https://community.pl...ass-shotgunner/

Melter, A-class mech concept: https://community.pl...-class-support/


#33
Hyginos

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And the poor bruiser, hellfires are useless if you run the stock bruiser due to heat gen and limited range on the primary, and it has one of the weakest abilities next to the rocketeer. At least rocketeer can be used to cheese on bunker, bruiser can't do much on any map.

 

I've actually found it does OK on uptown and origin, as it can use its ability to make aggressive moves to position for some good-ol-fashion vulcan facemurdering, and at that range you can dumbfire with a reasonable chance of success. Not optimal, but certainly functional. On the more open maps it can mount an AR and it still has the ability to give people a hud notification long range, so it does OK.

 

As far as I'm concerned rocky might as well be a shipping crate with a seeker and some thrusters for all the good its hellfires do.

 

If bruiser had a different secondary I think more people would play it enough to realize just how strong the ability can be.


MFW Howken

 

My post count is neat.


#34
ticklemyiguana

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intensive purposes

I've read absolutely none of this thread or even the post this is from. I actually had no idea why I clicked on it. But now I know.
INTENTS AND PURPOSES HOW DOES INTENSIVE PURPOSES EVEN MAKE SENSE??????

Edit: glorious 900th post.

Edited by ticklemyiguana, 18 December 2015 - 10:52 AM.

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Spoiler

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#35
StubbornPuppet

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Oh dear, it's the "Hellfires locking on to cloaked players" debate again.  Like it is even remotely hard to see a cloaked player to begin with.  Unless you're seriously vision impaired and forgot your glasses... or possibly drunk, the cloaked mechs are barely harder to see than an uncloaked one.

 

There's no good reason I've found to cloak in the Infiltrator because it uses up the much more valuable fuel.  The only reason to do it in the Predator is to be able to see through walls.  Oops, wrong discussion topic.  My bad.


To be serious for a moment this is just a joke

 


#36
Superkamikazee

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I've actually found it does OK on uptown and origin, as it can use its ability to make aggressive moves to position for some good-ol-fashion vulcan facemurdering, and at that range you can dumbfire with a reasonable chance of success. Not optimal, but certainly functional. On the more open maps it can mount an AR and it still has the ability to give people a hud notification long range, so it does OK.
 
As far as I'm concerned rocky might as well be a shipping crate with a seeker and some thrusters for all the good its hellfires do.
 
If bruiser had a different secondary I think more people would play it enough to realize just how strong the ability can be.


Currently the bruisers ability requires excellent timing, strategy, and the skill to predict your enemies movements in any given situation to be at all usable, it's one of the least straight forward. All that is a contradiction to hellfires. The ability really needs a wider window (time) for usability. And just generally speaking if hellfires get any tweaks, it shouldn't be a nerf. Perhaps less homing ability, faster locking and higher rate of fire. Incorporate the option to line up a secondary target marker after initial lock to lead hellfires or something to improve homing in turn increasing lock time to balance that out or something, higher heat gen. Maybe the second lock adds a bit more damage too. All I know is that hellfires need a bit more depth to them. Hellfires are a really cool idea, just seems like in their current state they're too difficult to balance, it's either OP, or junk.

Edited by Superkamikazee, 18 December 2015 - 12:37 PM.

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#37
CoshCaust

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As for the lock-on time - no, it's not short. I main Rocketeer so please listen for a sec and I'll try not to be extremely bias. DM mentioned that the skill required to start the lock-on is terrible (and I agree with it), however it takes some more time to actually lock on. You say that this lock-on time is too short but I can assure you that even with my measly MMR, it's too long as it is with 90% of people I play against because of the terribly slow travel time. By the time I finish my lock-on people are already moving for cover and by the time the missiles get there, they are well within safety range. Add that on top of the fact that people can literally dodge it without cover - which I'm fine with by the way - it leaves for a seriously underpowered mech.

 

I also can (kinda) understand the logic you are coming from with the cloak thing, but making it unable to detect a cloaked mech is actually kinda ridiculous. Against a Predator, this is less so because that mech cannot rush you without breaking its cloak. But for the Infiltrator, I'm saying a massive no to that. I've already had issues keeping A-class mechs away from my Rocketeer as it was because of my slow rate-of-fire weapons that by neutralizing my lock-on, on top of my slow-firing primary...that's just stupidly underpowered for a Rocketeer. That Infiltrator that is charging at me deserves to get wrecked for charging at me - a C-Class. Of course this issue would be solved with DM's suggestion.

Alright the lock time discussion is kind of broken right now because of the following:

- I don't use the mech

- It is undeniable that i have been locked onto before i could stop it on countless occasions

Those two conflict and make this kind of impossible for me.

I see your arguments with people already moving to cover etc., so i can empathize, but at the same time i've experienced all the shenanigans of instant-lock...sooo...

I will say though - transcending all nitty-gritty detail-discussion - that the Hellfires have no place being comparable to the TOW, GL, etc. The majority of their function and strength requires no skill to use. If anyone wants this weapon to be able to contend with TOWs and GLs, it better somehow magically require skill (and no, it is not impressive locking and flicking the aim over a wall).

I'm not saying the weapons should be trash, i'm not saying it shouldn't be used by good players; i'm simply saying the obvious: Impressive Hawken game play should be impressive.

 

Considering the advantage is utterly negated by the problems associated with the weapon itself, I think it's something we can leave alone until HFs really get a thorough rework.

Lol, right? I kind of said this earlier, how the HF are actually pretty balanced- even if they're wonk as hell to me.

 

cloacking != invisibility. it is only hide you from radar. thats all.
 

if you not moving you visible less.

on current moment cloak-ability counter by scanners, when you shown on mini-map even if you in ability. it should be vice-versa, cloak should counter scanners, and totally hiding you from radar. It is how it should be!

but cloak shouldn't counter enemy weapons "just because". it not counter TOW or GL, and it shouldn't counter HF rockets and decrease HF main feature.

I said cloaking = invisibility for this conversation because there is no effective difference, they mean the exact same thing here because we all know you're not actually 100% invisible, and both words only refer to visibility- everyone knows what we're referring to, regardless of technicalities. Yes, invisibility is obviously not technically correct. It also doesn't matter, haha.

...huh. To be completely honest, i definitely thought cloaking removed you from scanners...lol. Yeah i agree, that's odd.

You're right, it shouldn't counter weapons 'just because', it should counter a weapon for the same reasons it counters other detection methods. TOW and GL aren't guided, neither are bullets, why would cloaking counter any of those? You point and shoot and try to hit what you see- which is what you should have to do with your HF when the enemy is cloaked- you've lost targeting systems telling you where the enemy is, so you have to point and shoot with your eyes.

The HF's main feature is not to detect cloaked enemies. Of course cloaking should decrease effectiveness of any feature related to a targeting systems.

 

For the record, i'll explain the only thread of hope for the argument that HF should lock on to cloaked enemies (i don't usually explain someone else's argument for them, because if they can't outline it themselves, then they shouldn't be arguing- but what the hell  :thumbsup: ):

"The weapon itself holds ordinance in place, ready to be fired. The ordinance itself has a built in targeting system which tracks heat and adjusts trajectory in order to follow it. Before being released, the ordinance holds a temporary connection to the mech to notify the pilot when the ordinance has a potential lock to a heat signature. That is why no targeting systems in-mech can visualize the cloaked target, but the weapon can still lock on."

The previous explanation is valid as to why the HF work the way they do. Here are the easy arguments against it:

- It is actually invalid because if these were the methods of the missiles' locking, then most cases when an enemy goes behind cover once, the missiles would have lost their lock permanently, only gaining it again if you stepped back out right where you went into cover.

- It is valid, but it is not sound because for a missile to adjust trajectory, it must be detecting the heat map of a radius, detecting a heat signature in the radius, then adjusting trajectory based on the heat signature's location in that radius; if this data is being collected by the missile pre-launch, it would be just as easy to send all the data to the cockpit for target visualization, as sending a notification of potential lock (the current "beep beep beep").

 

I could go on, but it should be clear that there is no logic behind the current lock-to-cloak system.

I'm being serious when i say this - it's a video game, it's allowed - you could throw out all logic and just say it works better this way- just for the sake of game play. But i would disagree (at least then we could stop arguing  :tongue: ).

 

For those who don't know argument terminology:

Validity is basically if something mathematically follows: if A then B, if B then C, it is valid that, if A then C.

Soundness is basically if something makes sense logically.

The following is valid but not sound:

All U.S. presidents are spotted owls. Obama is a U.S. president. Obama is a spotted owl.

 

I've read absolutely none of this thread or even the post this is from. I actually had no idea why I clicked on it. But now I know.
INTENTS AND PURPOSES HOW DOES INTENSIVE PURPOSES EVEN MAKE SENSE??????

Lol god damn it. You know, i actually paused a moment before typing that like "Hm, i know there's one way people write this all the time that's incorrect..." but i didn't Google it cause i'm a lazy fuzzy bunny.

That absolutely does make infinitely more sense. I am ashamed. It's not like me to be so lazy! Haha


Edited by CoshCaust, 18 December 2015 - 04:41 PM.


#38
SS396

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- It is actually invalid because if these were the methods of the missiles' locking, then most cases when an enemy goes behind cover once, the missiles would have lost their lock permanently, only gaining it again if you stepped back out right where you went into cover.


Do you even play Hawken?? The hellfires suck so badly they lose track of objects in plain sight that dodge a few meters sideways, or simply jump while the missiles are in flight. Why on earth would you assume that they can only regain a lock if you stood at exactly the same place they lost acquisition? They lose lock all the time on their own AND NEVER REGAIN IT.... EVER.  Real life weapons systems would adjust accordingly in flight and would never lose a lock in that sort of simple situation.

Also, if the system used infrared detection, a little bit of cover isn't going to be enough for the system to lose acquisition. You'd be just as visible in front of the cover as behind it. For example, think about how a predator can still see through very thick walls and structures, infrared detection is no different.
 

- It is valid, but it is not sound because for a missile to adjust trajectory, it must be detecting the heat map of a radius, detecting a heat signature in the radius, then adjusting trajectory based on the heat signature's location in that radius; if this data is being collected by the missile pre-launch, it would be just as easy to send all the data to the cockpit for target visualization, as sending a notification of potential lock (the current "beep beep beep").

 

You don't have to have two way communications between the HUD and the missile, this is the fundamental basis for "fire and forget", the missile has everything it needs once its left the pylon of the aircraft.

 

I'm not sure why you are trying to figure out the lore of how hellfires work.  The fact is they detect any mech, cloaked or not, who cares.


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fuzzy bunny you CZeroFive 


#39
WmMoneyFrmMissouri

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I recently picked up the rocketeer to play with the eoc. It's a fun mech. Yes, I always wash my hands after before handling the bong but it's fun none the less ;) For all the hate on hellfires, I see a lot of experienced playing a class that rocks em, just saying.
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#40
TheButtSatisfier

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I always wash my hands after before handling the bong but it's fun none the less ;)

 

If you can after before handle a bong then I need to know who your dealer is.


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