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P2W Doesn't Exist In Hawken. An Experiment.

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#1
Merl61

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TL;DR look at this https://docs.google....dit?usp=sharing

You read the title. Now for some background. If you don't already know me, I'm Merl. I have the 7th highest MMR account in Hawken (3 in the top 20), and have been playing for just over a year now. Given the recent discussions and changes regarding the pay to win accusations, I decided to run a little experiment.

The premise is simple. I made a new account, and have made no in-game purchases with MC OR HC. I will play TDM only, not purchasing anything. I will record my stats on a match by match basis and post them in the above spreadsheet. The goal is to get to 2600MMR, or in the top 20 accounts according to Shadeness' Leaderboard home.xshade.ca/users/leaderboard/, as fast as possible. Every 10 games I will post a screenshot of my stats page.

The goal of this exercise is to prove that there is absolutely no pay to win, or even grind to win, in Hawken. By reaching such a high level without making a single purchase, there will be absolutely no grounds for the P2W accusations.

This experiment exists only to argue against P2W. It makes no attempt at reconciling balance concerns, or any other concerns for that matter. I am simply stating that in the current iteration of Hawken, P2W is a myth. The results will prove this.

As a by-product, this data will provide insight into how MMR is calculated, and the flaws of the current system.

In regards to the inevitable noob/pub stomping accusations, I have three things to say.

1. It is for science. I take no pleasure in stomping noobs. I do take pleasure in getting good data, and that means playing my best in every game I get in to.

2. The amount of games that I will play before reaching 2000 MMR will be drastically lower than the number after. The time spent in lower level lobbies will be minimized as much as possible. As soon as I get access to the server browser, I will choose the highest games available to me.

3. Whenever I am in a low lobby, I offer advice and try to interact with newer players in a positive manner. I don't want to hurt anybody, and do my best to soothe the pain of getting killed with friendly comments and references to community resources.

*Edit. I define pay to win as the necessity of purchases in order to perform at a high level. The results of this are a hard counter to anyone who claims that definition of pay to win fits Hawken. Many of you have other definitions. That is mine.

If you have any questions or requests for additional stats, just leave a comment.

Good luck out there Pilots, I'll see you on the battlefield.

Edited by Merl61, 07 April 2015 - 12:29 PM.

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#2
CrimsonKaim

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P2W is used to show that there is an unfair advantage for real money payers. In Hawken: it is the instant grind. Unlock everything early while others have to first play matches.


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#3
(P:B)Augmentia

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This is bloody brilliant. I always say that Hawken might be free to play, but definitely not pay to win. Logically, skill is what is most needed and the best way to get such skill is to run the grind over and over and over again until you get the skills needed to be in the top. I am interested in seeing how this goes. Are you not going to spend any HC at all on internals and such?


Edited by Augmentia, 07 April 2015 - 11:36 AM.

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#4
Merl61

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P2W is used to show that there is an unfair advantage for real money payers. In Hawken: it is the instant grind. Unlock everything early while others have to first play matches.

That's why I'm not buying anything.


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#5
Merl61

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This is bloody brilliant. I always say that Hawken might be free to play, but definitely not pay to win. Logically, skill is what is most needed and the best way to get such skill is to run the grind over and over and over again until you get the skills needed to be in the top. I am interested in seeing how this goes. Are you not going to spend any HC at all on internals and such?

No. I will only use the default Assault and the items/internals that come with it. 


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#6
-Tj-

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I like this experiment. I think it should be noted that a new player will experience will be a little different since they'll have to get used to certain elements in the game that aren't in other games (turn rate cap, 180 turn, etc.). A vet in a new account is still a vet, afterall. ;)


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#7
Hijinks_The_Turtle

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Your heart is in the right place.  However, there is one problem I have:

 

Getting a new account doesn't 'restart' your experience (when I say experience, I mean your personal skills that you learned during the extent of your time playing Hawken overall).  You still retain the skills you have when you're playing your actual account.  You know how to manage your items and time dodges better than a player who just started to play Hawken.  

 

I agree, Hawken isn't pay to win.  Though, this isn't the best way to go about it due to the fact that your skills as a veteran makes it easier to get more HC than the new guys.

 

The problem is that players' personal skill in an oddball game like Hawken wildly varies between each and every player.


Edited by Hijinks_The_Turtle, 07 April 2015 - 01:46 PM.

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#8
defekt

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A noble sentiment.  Alas it will only prove than an already good player can grind his way back up to where he was beforehand.  For such a format to have any value, given the stated intent, it will require a new player to attempt the same.


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#9
Merl61

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You're heart is in the right place.  However, there is one problem I have:

 

Getting a new account doesn't 'restart' your experience (when I say experience, I mean your personal skills that you learned during the extent of your time playing Hawken overall).  You still retain the skills you have when you're playing your actual account.  You know how to manage your items and time dodges better than a player who just started to play Hawken.  

 

I agree, Hawken isn't pay to win.  Though, this isn't the best way to go about it though due to the fact that your skills as a veteran makes it easier to get more HC than the new guys.

 

The problem is that players' personal skill in an oddball game like Hawken wildly varies between each and every player.

This is why I am making no purchases. It is not to say that every new player is going to be this successful. It is to say that it is POSSIBLE. 


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#10
Nept

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Although I'm not against the "experiment" itself, I think you should word things more accurately.  You cannot prove (especially not through these methods) that there exists "absolutely no pay to win, or even grind to win".  What you can demonstrate is that a skilled player can perform perfectly well without any account purchases.

 

What if I were to create a thread called "Proof that ping doesn't matter," wherein I demonstrated that Nept performs perfectly well at the highest tiers of Hawken competition with a 120 ping?  I'd run into the same problem: 120 ping Nept might perform perfectly well compared to his competition, but 30 ping Nept would beat the fuzzy bunny out of him.

 

*Edit* Should also mention that pay2win is typically taken to mean that money confers an advantage, not guaranteed victory.


Edited by Nept, 07 April 2015 - 12:09 PM.

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#11
Epsilon_Knight

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This isn't exactly science, even though I like the idea (just to see how fast smurf would smurf if a smurf could smurf smurfs). The premise of pay-to-win isn't that a top 10 player in the games couldn't wreck face and advance even with starting gear, it's that paying gives a winning advantage to most people.

If you wanted to test this, you would literally need to take two groups of a wide range of MMRs representative of the community, start both over with nothing, and give one group unlimited MC and have both groups fight.

I have a feeling the unlimited MC group would turn out more wins until enough HC could be built up to get the assault off the SMC, get orbs on suitable big mechs, etc. But we'll never have proof, and Merl, you are so good as to be hopelessly far from a representative sample. :P
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#12
Kindos7

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It would be easier to play with just the default mech (the Assault you get with the code) long enough and see if there is a difference in the MMR. The difference between the current MMR and the new MMR once it reaches an stable level should tell the impact that purchases make in Hawken.


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#13
ticklemyiguana

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I feel there's a miscommunication in here somewhere. Merl is saying that without once utilizing either HC or MC, he can make it back up to the same place as one of his accounts that are just loaded with both. He's not saying "I can do well with this."

That much is obvious. He's saying that if there are P2W aspects in Hawken, his experimental group (the smurf that will buy nothing) should not be able to equal his control groups. (Any of his current accounts.)

It would take a larger study to be scientifically valid, but the method itself is sound so long as we're comparing accounts of the same player.
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#14
Merl61

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Although I'm not against the "experiment" itself, I think you should word things more accurately.  You cannot prove (especially not through these methods) that there exists "absolutely no pay to win, or even grind to win".  What you can demonstrate is that a skilled player can perform perfectly well without any account purchases.
 
What if I were to create a thread called "Proof that ping doesn't matter," wherein I demonstrated that Nept performs perfectly well at the highest tiers of Hawken competition with a 120 ping?  I'd run into the same problem: 120 ping Nept might perform perfectly well compared to his competition, but 30 ping Nept would beat the fuzzy bunny out of him.
 
*Edit* Should also mention that pay2win is typically taken to mean that money confers an advantage, not guaranteed victory.

I am not saying that every player can do what I can. I am simply saying it is possible to play to your highest potential with the defaults. The Assault is the best mech in the game, regardless of skill. The items and internals that are offered are comparable to any comp build.

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#15
Hijinks_The_Turtle

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This is why I am making no purchases. It is not to say that every new player is going to be this successful. It is to say that it is POSSIBLE. 

One could go in Warframe and not purchase any platinum or spend any credits.  Is it possible?  Yes!  Just like Hawken.  Is it probable?  No, as Warframe requires variety in warframes and weapons (less so than WFs).  It's the same for Hawken, the Assault mech is not the best mech for every single situation.  It's slightly less of an all-rounder than the CRT, but that still applies.  To be prepared for different situations like in Warframe, Hawken nudges players to buy different mechs.  Is it required?  Nope!  Assault is the all-rounder mech that can deal with situations as the jack of all trades, master of none.  It's hard to just play assault the entire time for most people.

 

That's just what I believe anyway, I'm not saying you aren't doing the right thing.


Edited by Hijinks_The_Turtle, 07 April 2015 - 12:19 PM.


#16
Nept

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I feel there's a miscommunication in here somewhere. Merl is saying that without once utilizing either HC or MC, he can make it back up to the same place as one of his accounts that are just loaded with both. He's not saying "I can do well with this."

That much is obvious. He's saying that if there are P2W aspects in Hawken, his experimental group (the smurf that will buy nothing) should not be able to equal his control groups. (Any of his current accounts.)

It would take a larger study to be scientifically valid, but the method itself is sound so long as we're comparing accounts of the same player.

 

No, the method isn't scientifically sound.  You never (or never if you can help it) use your entire subject pool as both your experimental group and your control group.  Far too many biases at play.


Edited by Nept, 07 April 2015 - 12:20 PM.

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#17
CraftyDus

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HatesYourFace did this 20 times over already, but knock yourself out


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#18
Epsilon_Knight

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No miscommunication, Merl is fighting other players most of which are substantially less skilled. All he can prove is that he alone can still dispatch enough players to get back to 2600 MMR regardless of weapon purchases. That has no bearing on whether the game is p2w for the general population. Again, the only way to prove or disprove p2w status is with two representative samples.

Put another way, if a chess grand master is playing against you, it won't matter if you can pay convert pawns to queens two lines early, he's still going to immolate 98% of anyone who ever played chess and do well enough against the rest. The doesn't mean there's no advantage supplanting skill for the majority of other players.
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#19
Merl61

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This isn't exactly science, even though I like the idea (just to see how fast smurf would smurf if a smurf could smurf smurfs). The premise of pay-to-win isn't that a top 10 player in the games couldn't wreck face and advance even with starting gear, it's that paying gives a winning advantage to most people.
If you wanted to test this, you would literally need to take two groups of a wide range of MMRs representative of the community, start both over with nothing, and give one group unlimited MC and have both groups fight.
I have a feeling the unlimited MC group would turn out more wins until enough HC could be built up to get the assault off the SMC, get orbs on suitable big mechs, etc. But we'll never have proof, and Merl, you are so good as to be hopelessly far from a representative sample. :P

Haha:) I get where you're coming from. The point is not to say that the addition of new mechs isn't going to help someone augment their play style. I am simple saying that it is POSSIBLE to succeed to incredibly high standards with the defaults

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#20
Dr_Freeze001

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I dunno why, but this thread rubs me the wrong way. I'm not against it, but why do we need to prove there is no P2W? I mean, isn't it clear form the people already playing?

 

Your experiment is nice and all, but I don't think it proves your point. P2W is not the absence of being able to do it without spending money, it's the presence of the possibility of buying power. I got o where I am only buying cosmetics, do I not prove the non-P2W point? Does it only apply to 'unlocking every single item' or does it go further?

 

 

A bit off-topic.

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Edited by Dr_Freeze001, 07 April 2015 - 12:22 PM.

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#21
shosca

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P2W is used to show that there is an unfair advantage for real money payers. In Hawken: it is the instant grind. Unlock everything early while others have to first play matches.

 

Yup, Hawken is pay4time, not p2w


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#22
ReEvolve

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There are two reasons why I recommend not to do this experiment:

 

1.) The "pubstomping" aspect.

 

 


1. It is for science. I take no pleasure in stomping noobs. I do take pleasure in getting good data, and that means playing my best in every game I get in to.


You don't take pleasure in pubstomping. That's good. It really is. However, that doesn't make it any better. That doesn't change what it is. It's still pubstomping. You are still ruining the game experience of other players.
 

 

 
2. The amount of games that I will play before reaching 2000 MMR will be drastically lower than the number after. The time spent in lower level lobbies will be minimized as much as possible. As soon as I get access to the server browser, I will choose the highest games available to me.


The current starting MMR is 1250 iirc. It'll take a while until you reach 2000. That's more than just a handful of matches.
 

 

 

2.) Ultimately your experiment can't prove that Hawken is not pay2win.

 

The "Is Hawken pay2win?" topic resurfaces every once in a while. It will never stop. It's a free2play game. Pay2win is always a concern. I don't think that your experiment can be something like a "hard counter" to claims about Hawken being pay2win. There are a few different definitions of pay2win. To many people the ability to purchase any gameplay affecting items (i.e. mechs, weapons, items, internals) itself is somewhat pay2win. If you spend money you get stuff right now while others don't get it right now if they don't spend money. It's a shortcut. That's a fact. Even your experiment can't disprove that fact. :(


Edited by ReEvolve, 07 April 2015 - 12:27 PM.

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#23
Superkamikazee

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Watched a few streams the last couple days, new players, still hearing a lot of Pay2Win slander being thrown around.  :wallbash:

 

Not sure how you end that stigma. 


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#24
Nept

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I am not saying that every player can do what I can. I am simply saying it is possible to play to your highest potential with the defaults. The Assault is the best mech in the game, regardless of skill. The items and internals that are offered are comparable to any comp build.

 

My contention wasn't that you were claiming that every player could do what you can.  I stated that you cannot claim through your demonstration that there exists "absolutely no pay to win, or even grind to win" component to Hawken.  I stated that under the assumption that you wouldn't have access to the entire competitive internal set (I've not spent much time looking at the LOADEDASSAULT code).

 

If you do, in fact, have access to the entire competitive internal set, then you needn't perform the "experiment".  Instead, simply post pictures of the identical builds possessed by the new account and the old account(s).

 

If you do not have access to the entire competitive internal set, then you can't claim that there's "absolutely no grind to win" component to the game (as per my earlier post).

 

Of course, this discussion entirely ignores the range of mechs, internals, and weapons that are accessible through unlocks.



#25
Hijinks_The_Turtle

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2.) Unltimately your experiment can't prove that Hawken is not pay2win.

 

The "Is Hawken pay2win?" topic resurfaces every once in a while. It will never stop. It's a free2play game. Pay2win is always a concern. I don't think that your experiment can be something like a "hard counter" to claims about Hawken being pay2win. There are a few different definitions of pay2win. To many people the ability to purchase any gameplay affecting items (i.e. mechs, weapons, items, internals) itself is somewhat pay2win. If you spend money you get stuff right now while others don't get it right now if they don't spend money. It's a shortcut. That's a fact. Even your experiment can't disprove that fact. :(

Hereth be the major dilemma for all F2P titles.  Go to any forum for most F2P games, most will say that their game (let's call it 'A') isn't P2W and some will believe that another game (let's call it 'B') is P2W when in fact the playerbase over at game 'B' says it's not.  The players at game 'B' think that game 'A' is P2W.  P2W is different for a lot of people.


Edited by Hijinks_The_Turtle, 07 April 2015 - 12:29 PM.


#26
shosca

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Watched a few streams the last couple days, new players, still hearing a lot of Pay2Win slander being thrown around.  :wallbash:

 

Not sure how you end that stigma. 

 

By making every weapon/item/internal/etc.. unlockable with hc from the get go with no "pilot level wall" ? :P


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#27
Merl61

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My contention wasn't that you were claiming that every player could do what you can.  I stated that you cannot claim through your demonstration that there exists "absolutely no pay to win, or even grind to win" component to Hawken.  I stated that under the assumption that you wouldn't have access to the entire competitive internal set (I've not spent much time looking at the LOADEDASSAULT code).
 
If you do, in fact, have access to the entire competitive internal set, then you needn't perform the "experiment".  Instead, simply post pictures of the identical builds possessed by the new account and the old account(s).
 
If you do not have access to the entire competitive internal set, then you can't claim that there's "absolutely no grind to win" component to the game (as per my earlier post).
 
Of course, this discussion entirely ignores the range of mechs, internals, and weapons that are accessible through unlocks.

You do get access to a competitive internal/item set. The purpose of the experiment is to start from scratch, in order to prove my point.

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#28
RedVan

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P2W is used to show that there is an unfair advantage for real money payers. In Hawken: it is the instant grind. Unlock everything early while others have to first play matches.

P2W is any item/weapon/etc that is only available through a real $$ purchase, thus giving an advantage that can only be obtained in such a way.

If all items/weapons/etc can be purchased with in game earned credits, there is no P2W.

Pay 2 not grind is quite different, and a perfectly acceptable aspect of any f2p game. What matters is: when people are max level, does everyone have access to the same stuff, or do some people have access to things only obtained through real $ purchase.

Edited by RedVan, 07 April 2015 - 12:40 PM.


#29
Superkamikazee

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Anytime there's an option to exchange currency for something that changes the gameplay experience for players, there will be claims of Pay2Win. That's a fact. Whether it's a Pay2Win situation or not, is a matter of perspective. 

 

The only way to ever avoid claims of Pay2Win in a Free2Play game is by keeping monetization strictly cosmetic. NO XP boosters, NO HC boosters, NO "UNLOCK NOW" etc etc. If there's a pay wall, be it even if it's a reasonably fair grind, people aren't reasonable and will mark the game as Pay2Win. 


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#30
BluetoothBoy

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You do get access to a competitive internal/item set. The purpose of the experiment is to start from scratch, in order to prove my point.

While this experiment is in no way the most sound experiment due to it being a single case study (and therefore, only one set of data), I think most of you are forgetting that as he nears his real account's MMR, he will, once again, be matched with players closer to his skill-set. This would be true for any player with previous experience, really. So, the real "proof" will come as he nears that mark. If he can keep up and raise his MMR, his point has been made. If not, then it shows that maybe P2W factors in, if only a little.

But here's what I see as the bigger discrepancy here. The now-default mech is fully loaded. As a result, even though he's not buying anything, he still has an advantage over someone trying to level their new mech with nothing on it.

I appreciate that someone is taking the time to do this. However, I think this study would be a bit more representative of the playerbase and the P2W aspect of the game if A) a pilot with a more-or-less average MMR did this experiment, or several of varying MMRs, and B) if you started with an unloaded mech (when I joined the game, I got an CR-T with a shield, and that's all). I do realize that a new player starts with a fully loaded Assault, so it would seem like doing the experiment with a fully loaded Assault would be fair game. But then you're just playing as if you HAD bought a mech and paid for those upgrades. Also, if I had to guess, with as fast as you earn HC on a new account, the majority of new players buy a new (and thus unloaded) mech ASAP. I know I did.

Anyway, continue on! If what I just said makes any sense to you, I would say don't hesitate to extend the experiment to other players and possibly change it up a bit. Or not. Your choice. ;)

EDIT: One more thought. I would think a better way to show it is not P2W would be to fully unlock everything, and compare performance with different weapons/internals/items (and none, of course).

Edited by BluetoothBoy, 07 April 2015 - 12:53 PM.

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#31
CrimsonKaim

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P2W is any item/weapon/etc that is only available through a real $$ purchase, thus giving an advantage that can only be obtained in such a way.

If all items/weapons/etc can be purchased with in game earned credits, there is no P2W.

Pay 2 not grind is quite different, and a perfectly acceptable aspect of any f2p game. What matters is: when people are max level, does everyone have access to the same stuff, or do some people have access to things only obtained through real $ purchase.

 

I know, but as long as you get an advantage through real money, people call it P2W. Cause you get advantages, let them be small, there is an advantage and this makes it for some people reasonable to say p2w.


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#32
CrimsonKaim

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Yup, Hawken is pay4time, not p2w

 

I know I know but this is an explaination why people use it. I myself don't think Hawken is p2w but reducing the purchaseable real moeny content only to cesmetics and non-gameplay stuff is a good move.


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#33
AsianJoyKiller

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Sorry, didn't read the whole thread as I'm mobile, but what exactly are we defining "pay to win" as?

In my experience, it's a very subjective term.

Based on different definitions I could successfully make arguments that Hawken is clearly pay to win, or completely devoid of pay to win mechanics.

Actually, given the subjective nature of "what is pay to win?", it's virtually impossible to make a successful argument that any game with progression related pay mechanics is devoid of pay to win, because there will always be those who believe any payment for progression is considered p2w.

I don't find this experiment scientifically or logically sound.
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#34
Merl61

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While this experiment is in no way the most sound experiment due to it being a single case study (and therefore, only one set of data), I think most of you are forgetting that as he nears his real account's MMR, he will, once again, be matched with players closer to his skill-set. This would be true for any player with previous experience, really. So, the real "proof" will come as he nears that mark. If he can keep up and raise his MMR, his point has been made. If not, then it shows that maybe P2W factors in, if only a little.But here's what I see as the bigger discrepancy here. The now-default mech is fully loaded. As a result, even though he's not buying anything, he still has an advantage over someone trying to level their new mech with nothing on it.I appreciate that someone is taking the time to do this. However, I think this study would be a bit more representative of the playerbase and the P2W aspect of the game if A) a pilot with a more-or-less average MMR did this experiment, or several of varying MMRs, and B) if you started with an unloaded mech (when I joined the game, I got an CR-T with a shield, and that's all). I do realize that a new player starts with a fully loaded Assault, so it would seem like doing the experiment with a fully loaded Assault would be fair game. But then you're just playing as if you HAD bought a mech and paid for those upgrades. Also, if I had to guess, with as fast as you earn HC on a new account, the majority of new players buy a new (and thus unloaded) mech ASAP. I know I did.Anyway, continue on! If what I just said makes any sense to you, I would say don't hesitate to extend the experiment to other players and possibly change it up a bit. Or not. Your choice. ;)EDIT: One more thought. I would think a better way to show it is not P2W would be to fully unlock everything, and compare performance with different weapons/internals/items (and none, of course).


Anyone can use the code Loadedassault to get the mech I am using.

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#35
Merl61

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The op has been updated with what I define as pay to win.

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#36
BluetoothBoy

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Anyone can use the code Loadedassault to get the mech I am using.

I realize that, I did so myself. But that really doesn't have anything to do with what I said.

#37
AsianJoyKiller

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The op has been updated with what I define as pay to win.


I would argue that definition is a rather uncommon definition, and so your argument will generally not be overly convincing.

Edited by AsianJoyKiller, 07 April 2015 - 01:25 PM.


#38
Merl61

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I would argue that definition is a rather uncommon definition, and so your argument will generally not be overly convincing.


I am seeing that now lol:) Thanks for the input though.

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#39
AsianJoyKiller

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I am seeing that now lol:) Thanks for the input though.

its a tough issue to tackle, given how p2w tends to wildly differ from person to person.

#40
phed

phed

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This is the worst excuse for smurfing ever, stop to stealing my mmrs you dirty thiefs!




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