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Why Old Hawken Would Be Bad For Everyone

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#1
Merl61

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With Hawken's resurgence, many players from pre-steam are coming back. I welcome them. I'm glad they are getting back into the community. What I do not appreciate, is their demands for Hawken to revert back to it's old state (High ttk, old hud). Here's why. 

 

If you think that the skill gap is high now, it is nothing compared to what it would be with a high ttk. My reasoning behind this is simple. In a match, even the highest level player in a scout can be brought down by a newbie who gets lucky. Why? Because the ttk is so low, that one lucky tow shot can pretty much take a scout out of the equation. If you were to give it, say, 500 health, this would no longer be a factor. The chances of a newbie getting lucky 3 or 4 times are greatly diminished, while the high level player is still going to hit all of their shots. This can be applied to any matchup. As the level rises, so does accuracy, which matters more and more the more health you start giving the mechs. 

 

Competitive players don't want the high TTK because it slows down the pace of the game. The current pace is exhilarating and dynamic, allowing for many play styles to emerge. Slowing it down would make the game far more boring and one dimensional.  

The old HUD was clunky and poorly optimized. While I am not opposed to a "Legacy Mode" setting that brings it back, making it the only option hurts people who are running the game on less than beastly computers. The new cockpit is also much cleaner and preferred in competitive circles. I like the old one, but it isn't better than the new one, just different.

 

There are some cold hard facts here, but it is interlaced with opinion. I'd love to hear yours, especially if you disagree. GGs to all, see you on the battlefield. 

 

Merl

 


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#2
Houruck

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Define old. High TTK came with Ascension just before the Steam launch.


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#3
Merl61

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Define old. High TTK came with Ascension just before the Steam launch.

Pre Ascension


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#4
Houruck

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Pre Ascension

Ascension buffed the armours all over the board to the point I could talk with a Scout. Before that a Scout had max 555 HP.

To make it clear, I prefer lower TTK (but I would give the Scout a little bit more speed because it is a glass mech atm).

 

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Edited by Houruck, 22 March 2015 - 08:29 AM.

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#5
Fantus_Longhorn

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Define old. High TTK came with Ascension just before the Steam launch.

 

Agreed. 'Old' Hawken always had a low TTK. The biggest change came after the Steam launch with Ascension and then it was reverted back after. I started playing in Closed Beta 2 (so not as far back as some) and love the low TTK. I can't say I've heard anyone from the Closed Beta's and Alpha's wanting to change that. Perhaps some examples?

 

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#6
Sylhiri

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Agreed. 'Old' Hawken always had a low TTK. The biggest change came after the Steam launch with Ascension and then it was reverted back after. I started playing in Closed Beta 2 (so not as far back as some) and love the low TTK. I can't say I've heard anyone from the Closed Beta's and Alpha's wanting to change that. Perhaps some examples?

 

All I've seen is Closed Beta and Alpha people requesting speed to be increased. Not kill speed, movement speed.

 

I will have to disagree with higher hp values if Hawken continues to have four different sources of healing, old Hawken only had two sources and even the orbs were getting continually adjusted to stop it from outshining the other items by a fair margin.


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#7
Merl61

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To clarify, High TTK is bad. As far as mech speeds are concerned, I think they're in a good place now. I could go into more detail but that is for another topic. 


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#8
SparkyJJC

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The TTK I couldn't care less about. I preferred the old TTK but I don't mind the new one.
What I don't like is the current HUD.
I liked the old HUD.

 


Edited by SparkyJJC, 22 March 2015 - 08:42 AM.

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#9
Miscellaneous

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The TTK I couldn't care less about. I preferred the old TTK but I don't mind the new one.
What I don't like is the current HUD.
I liked the old HUD.

 

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#10
defekt

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In the end I reckon ADH got the TTK about right, after lots of to-ing and fro-ing.  What they didn't manage to get right was the amount of healing in the game: it became abundant and cheap.


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#11
Merl61

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The TTK I couldn't care less about. I preferred the old TTK but I don't mind the new one.
What I don't like is the current HUD.
I liked the old HUD.

 

I'm not saying that it shouldn't come back. I'm saying that the new one shouldn't be removed. 


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#12
Houruck

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In the end I reckon ADH got the TTK about right, after lots of to-ing and fro-ing.  What they didn't manage to get right was the amount of healing in the game: it became abundant and cheap.

You had to pick a place to use your repair drone carefully because they could catch you with your pants down. Now the drones are redundant and they are just as important as a gameplay mechanic as they are to the economy (MC). Since we got the tech and we have plenty repair orbs (even though you can not toss it across the map anymore and it needs some time before you can absorb it) I barely stop to repair.


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#13
AxionOperandi

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I don't want it to go back to how it was in any shape or form.

 

Its hard for to conceptualize and convey how or why exactly but as someone who's been had access to the game since late alpha I always lost interest in the game throughout its early history.  I would play for a month or so and get bored or frustrated with the game and move onto something else.  Some of that was probably the lack of maps for sure but something about the mechanics of the game frustrated me greatly.  I only just started playing this game again recently in probably December when this latest update was completely new to me and I am having far more fun with the game than I ever did.  And not that I consider myself a great player by any stretch of the imagination but I'm also doing much better than at any other point in my history with the game.



#14
martindaimari08

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Hawken Pre-Ascension FTW. I miss the old slug reaper.


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#15
Elite_is_salty

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I'm tired of people talking about 'old' HAWKEN like they played it in the first place.

 

I know the nostalgia takes us nowhere, but I don't like people jumping on others' heads too.

 

And you know what, yeah, pre-ascension HAWKEN is 1 million times better than this one.


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#16
defekt

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You had to pick a place to use your repair drone carefully because they could catch you with your pants down. Now the drones are redundant and they are just as important as a gameplay mechanic as they are to the economy (MC). Since we got the tech and we have plenty repair orbs (even though you can not toss it across the map anymore and it needs some time before you can absorb it) I barely stop to repaIr

Indeed!  I very much enjoyed the game when choosing when/where to heal was a serious consideration.  It was a more tactical game back then, and resource management was a key component of doing well at the game.  

 

Some might argue that worrying about when and where to heal made everyone play a bit more cautiously -- YOLOing into battle might get you a few glory kills but you'd be vulnerable without an exit strategy -- and I'd agree with that to an extent, but it's one of the things that contributed to the pace of the game feeding directly into the whole mech experience; that same initial mech experience that Hawken, for me at least, somehow got lost along the way.  I mean, who doesn't remember those early videos.  They're what drew most of us in, after all.

 

I'm not expecting the game to pull back to those times, nor should it, but IMO it did end up drifting too far from that original concept.  If an amount of that early charm can be recaptured then I for one would be a happy jockey.  :yes:


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#17
RespawningJesus

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From a competitive standpoint, old Hawken would be better, but from a free to play stand point, I do not believe it is the game's best interests to do so.  Of course, things such as the Tech will need to be looked into, but that kind of thing can always be adjusted by nerfing, buffing, or re-working it.



#18
Merl61

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From a competitive standpoint, old Hawken would be better, but from a free to play stand point, I do not believe it is the game's best interests to do so.  Of course, things such as the Tech will need to be looked into, but that kind of thing can always be adjusted by nerfing, buffing, or re-working it.

What competitive standpoint are you coming from? Do you have evidence to back this up?


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#19
DieselCat

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Ascension buffed the armours all over the board to the point I could talk with a Scout. Before that a Scout had max 555 HP.

To make it clear, I prefer lower TTK (but I would give the Scout a little bit more speed because it is a glass mech atm).

 

doublebubble.png

 

 

Man, that was a great looking cockpit. I know before the ADH devs finally left for good, new reticles were made available for purchase and I found one or two that work better that the stock one we have now. But I still believe this one pictured was the best. With the newer ones it's still hard to see my sights on most maps.

Please consider bringing back the original reticles with the heat indicators.

 

Also, I was always in favor of increased TTK but I've never stopped playing Hawken through all the thick and thin since Alpha and have gotten use to the lower kill times, I think it's in a pretty good place to make the game a faster pace that it should be but not an insta kill game as compared to some other well known shooters.

 

I do think there is still some room for minor adjustments with speed vs. TTK (such as a C Class with a bit more walking / boosting speed to help get back into the fight quicker after a respawn) I don't really like the idea of giving the Scout more speed, but do understand it from the perspective of top tier vs. top tier players.

 

I think one of the keys to adjusting to lower TTK times is practicing improving one's accuracy when taking your shots. I'm still pretty poor at hitting my shots consistently but I'm paying more attention to my movement and movement of my opponents then picking my spots for better accuracy with increased DPS shots and of course always watching my radar for sneaky players trying to backdoor me while engaged. Hate that. All the while sticking close to your teammates. 

 

These are just some of the things I've tried to pay closer attention to to help me adjust to the lower TTK's and not become so frustrated over shorter fight engagements due to increased speed and lower health. 

 

I know for newer players it seems overwhelming sometimes, especially when going up against really good players but it takes a bit of time to adjust and improve to where one gets a good feel of the game. Once that starts happening you can feel like taking the fight to anyone.

 

Just insight from an average player that has a blast playing Hawken. 

 

*+


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#20
Merl61

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Man, that was a great looking cockpit. I know before the ADH devs finally left for good, new reticles were made available for purchase and I found one or two that work better that the stock one we have now. But I still believe this one pictured was the best. With the newer ones it's still hard to see my sights on most maps.

Please consider bringing back the original reticles with the heat indicators.

 

Also, I was always in favor of increased TTK but I've never stopped playing Hawken through all the thick and thin since Alpha and have gotten use to the lower kill times, I think it's in a pretty good place to make the game a faster pace that it should be but not an insta kill game as compared to some other well known shooters.

 

I do think there is still some room for minor adjustments with speed vs. TTK (such as a C Class with a bit more walking / boosting speed to help get back into the fight quicker after a respawn) I don't really like the idea of giving the Scout more speed, but do understand it from the perspective of top tier vs. top tier players.

 

I think one of the keys to adjusting to lower TTK times is practicing improving one's accuracy when taking your shots. I'm still pretty poor at hitting my shots consistently but I'm paying more attention to my movement and movement of my opponents then picking my spots for better accuracy with increased DPS shots and of course always watching my radar for sneaky players trying to backdoor me while engaged. Hate that. All the while sticking close to your teammates. 

 

These are just some of the things I've tried to pay closer attention to to help me adjust to the lower TTK's and not become so frustrated over shorter fight engagements due to increased speed and lower health. 

 

I know for newer players it seems overwhelming sometimes, especially when going up against really good players but it takes a bit of time to adjust and improve to where one gets a good feel of the game. Once that starts happening you can feel like taking the fight to anyone.

 

Just insight from an average player that has a blast playing Hawken. 

 

*+

thanks for the input


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#21
AxionOperandi

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Man, that was a great looking cockpit. I know before the ADH devs finally left for good, new reticles were made available for purchase and I found one or two that work better that the stock one we have now. But I still believe this one pictured was the best. With the newer ones it's still hard to see my sights on most maps.

Please consider bringing back the original reticles with the heat indicators.

 

Also, I was always in favor of increased TTK but I've never stopped playing Hawken through all the thick and thin since Alpha and have gotten use to the lower kill times, I think it's in a pretty good place to make the game a faster pace that it should be but not an insta kill game as compared to some other well known shooters.

 

I do think there is still some room for minor adjustments with speed vs. TTK (such as a C Class with a bit more walking / boosting speed to help get back into the fight quicker after a respawn) I don't really like the idea of giving the Scout more speed, but do understand it from the perspective of top tier vs. top tier players.

 

I think one of the keys to adjusting to lower TTK times is practicing improving one's accuracy when taking your shots. I'm still pretty poor at hitting my shots consistently but I'm paying more attention to my movement and movement of my opponents then picking my spots for better accuracy with increased DPS shots and of course always watching my radar for sneaky players trying to backdoor me while engaged. Hate that. All the while sticking close to your teammates. 

 

These are just some of the things I've tried to pay closer attention to to help me adjust to the lower TTK's and not become so frustrated over shorter fight engagements due to increased speed and lower health. 

 

I know for newer players it seems overwhelming sometimes, especially when going up against really good players but it takes a bit of time to adjust and improve to where one gets a good feel of the game. Once that starts happening you can feel like taking the fight to anyone.

 

Just insight from an average player that has a blast playing Hawken. 

 

*+

Hmmm.... yeah I look at that think of how much better it is now :confused: .  HUD in particular looks really low-def/blocky in comparison to the  current HUD.



#22
Sylhiri

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Hmmm.... yeah I look at that think of how much better it is now :confused: .  HUD in particular looks really low-def/blocky in comparison to the  current HUD.

 

Well the old HUD was designed to go with the feeling that the mechs are put together with scrap pieces since they pretty much are. The old HUD though caused problems with a lot of people, changing it made the game run better for a few people and the new one is designed with the Oculus Rift in mind (since the old one is stationary).



#23
Nightfirebolt

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I liked the old cockpits a lot, but I also like the new ones. It really doesn't matter to me.

 

What they should do, if they're smart and want to make some money - is make custom cockpits, including the original one, available for MC purchase. That'd make the nostalgic players happy while bringing in some extra dough to support the game.

 

As for bringing back the old TTK, I disagree completely. The game is incredibly well balanced the way it is now. Those weasely scouts deserve to get killed by a TOW or two if they step out of line.

 

And as for making movement speeds faster, I also disagree completely. I was never a fan of the whole "increase the speeds" movement, the reason being that the more we increase the speeds, the less and less this game feels like a mech game. I started playing this game because MWO was a piece of crap and Hawken felt more like what a mech game should be. If we keep increasing the speeds, we may as well add double jumps and wall jumps while we're at it, and remove the turning cap altogether. But then it just wouldn't be Hawken anymore, and I think this game shouldn't feel like Unreal Tournament or any other cookie cutter arena shooter out there.

 

*throws two cents into jar*


Edited by Nightfirebolt, 22 March 2015 - 12:45 PM.


#24
AxionOperandi

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Well the old HUD was designed to go with the feeling that the mechs are put together with scrap pieces since they pretty much are.

 

That may have been the orginal lore but I don't think that reflects where the game went.  I thought I remember there being back stories into new mechs develpment and production roll out.  You can't really have development and manufacture of product if you are building out of scrap.

 

Anyway its a bit off topic, but I'd rather think I'm piloting and advanced war machine than some hunk of metal held together with bail wire.



#25
Jerv

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If we keep increasing the speeds, we may as well add double jumps and wall jumps while we're at it, and remove the turning cap altogether. But then it just wouldn't be Hawken anymore, and I think this game shouldn't feel like Unreal Tournament or any other cookie cutter arena shooter out there.

 

 

Given the way some people get tot the roofs on Front Line to gain an edge on those who don;t know the secret ledges that devs left that are only accessible by a leap of faith from the edge of a droppped barricade, and the jump-dashers and dodge-skaters, I'd say that we already have the issues that you seek to avoid.


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#26
Z1Alpha

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Legacy mode is a wonderful idea! Being able to switch back and forth at the push of a button in the options, heck yes! I personally prefer the new one, as it is cleaner, but they should still have the old HUD file somewhere, and adding it in wouldn't seem to take up to many resources. I feel this is very viable and can become real.


Edited by Z1Alpha, 22 March 2015 - 08:14 PM.

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#27
comic_sans

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Legacy mode is a wonderful idea! Being able to switch back and forth and the push of a button in the options, heck yes! I personally prefer the new one, as it is cleaner, but they should still have the old HUD file somewhere, and adding it in wouldn't seem to take up to many resources. I feel this is very viable and can become real.

 

Someone from the old dev team said that it would take a surprising amount of coding to do and that it was not feasible at the time.  That was months ago and paraphrased, but yeah.


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#28
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My issue with your statement is that you did not play the earlier versions of the game, so how can I (a veteran of all the versions except 1) take you seriously on what you think it was like or would be now? 

 

I myself liked the older versions of the game when things were much simpler and a duel felt like a duel, not an instagib.  I wish there was a way for everyone to experience what the older versions were like, so that a player like yourself who didn't experience it, could have an informed opinion.

 

 

Unneeded, don't play that pretentious card.  His voice is the same as everyone elses.

 

 

This whole debacle seems to me is one persons opinion over another.  Everyone has the right to voice their opinion and verbally saying you don't appreciate it is just the most incorrect thing you can do in this case.  You might not want to hear it, but unfortunately the reason why some of these people left was because of the changes in the game they disliked.  For this game to gather popularity, it has to be appealing to EVERYONE, and then a competitive scene be built from that, not the cart before the horse.

 

Hey SS396! Nice to see you man. You're one of the first I recognize from before. I don't think they are really going to make major changes at this point IMO. I could be wrong. Wouldn't be the first time. You know how it is with old farts.....LOL. I can live with what is now but do miss the old so much. It was so much more raw. And yeah healing was a big deal. Pick the wrong spot and you were dead meat. :P I do have to admit, I am having fun playing now. Yeah it still needs some fixes but hopefully that will change. I just happened on this coming back and checked it out. Glad I did. I've met a few players who are really good at it. Well take care and hope to see you play. (hey I'm 61 so I know you can still do it, grin) Old fart is in the house. :D


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#29
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Given the way some people get tot the roofs on Front Line to gain an edge on those who don;t know the secret ledges that devs left that are only accessible by a leap of faith from the edge of a droppped barricade, and the jump-dashers and dodge-skaters, I'd say that we already have the issues that you seek to avoid.

 

That's why I said I wasn't a fan of "increase the speeds" in the first place. The situation feels tolerable right now, but if we go any further the game wouldn't feel like Hawken anymore.


Edited by Nightfirebolt, 22 March 2015 - 07:39 PM.


#30
Z1Alpha

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Someone from the old dev team said that it would take a surprising amount of coding to do and that it was not feasible at the time.  That was months ago and paraphrased, but yeah.

Im no computer/coding expert, but over time it could happen. As I understand the coding is all screwy, so sorting that out will not be fun for the new devs, but I'm just remaining hopeful! :D


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#31
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Im no computer/coding expert, but over time it could happen. As I understand the coding is all screwy, so sorting that out will not be fun for the new devs, but I'm just remaining hopeful! :D

 

Yeah, I think it was a matter of making the two tangled codes for either cockpit work with the then-current even more tangled iteration of the game, plus the company poofing and all.


Edited by comic_sans, 23 March 2015 - 11:28 AM.

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#32
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the hud issue... just add it into the game as a buyable thing...SEEing you can mod and make your own hud UI and all...


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#33
hestoned

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anyone remember when scout had 605 hp :D?



#34
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anyone remember when scout had 605 hp :D?

And could absorb an orb in a second to gain it back instantly.

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#35
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ah, me. hour-long epic siege battles. C-frames slugging it out in waves of carnage, 1200+ hp battletanks. drenched with sweat and exhausted after just one TDM.

I look at the old teaser trailers, and my heart aches. yeh, the HUD suct basketballs, but That was the Game which won all those awards.

 

and no Technician (even tho i love driving it, it just seems the game should have either it with no self-repair, or no Tech with self-repair. having both just seems wrong)


Edited by EM1O, 24 March 2015 - 01:31 AM.

#:  chown -R us ./base

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"...oh great Itzamna, you shall know Us by the trail of Dead."


#36
DaPheel

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I think increasing hp was the way Adhesive balanced burst vs. Automatic weapons, Larger health pool meant you could survive the initial burst strike and lay some damage on them in return. I would like to see the TTK lowered and the importance of healing brought back into the game.


EXPLOSIONS?


#37
Houruck

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I think increasing hp was the way Adhesive balanced burst vs. Automatic weapons, Larger health pool meant you could survive the initial burst strike and lay some damage on them in return.

Indeed this was the reason. As defekt used to say: "movement is king and burst is queen".

I would like to see the TTK lowered and the importance of healing brought back into the game.

I would say the TTK is already quite low for some A-class mechs but I totally agree about the repair drones.
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#38
defekt

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Indeed this was the reason. As defekt used to say: "movement is king and burst is queen".

Oh, Houruck, you remembered!  This is indeed a beautiful moment.  :wub:

 

ADH got the burst compensation thing quite wrong IMO.  (I remember The Good Fight that the community of the day had with ADH over this area of the game.  I look back fondly now but at the time it was a rather frustrating period.)  You don't swap health levels around to try and fix the burst problem, as ADH did, you build maps intelligently and encourage pilots to choose the right tools for the job.  It's a bit like ADH thought they could make every tool useful for every task.  As we all now know, ADH painted themselves into a corner on this one.  (However, let us not lay blame at the feet of the map builders here: the game was to-ing anf fro-ing so much that they didn't know if they were coming or going - they could only design maps for the game as it was at that time.)  All understandable and all rather unfortunate.


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#39
teeth_03

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I would be in favor of higher TTK, I played the game pre Steam and remember playing as an Infil trying to level it up. It was hard to finish off larger mechs, but at the end of the day, I think it was a much better game.

They need to do it like other FPSs do and have like a "Normal" and "Hardcore" game modes with different servers for each.

#40
rdKNIGHTMAREZ

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I miss being able to to change both arms. in the earliest beta it was crazy how you could put any weapon on. But to be honest there should be at least 2 choices per arm per mech........once you level up and buy it.

It would also help the MC store i bet.






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