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Why do we still have a vertical progression system?

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#1
ticklemyiguana

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Why?

 

It only gives credibility to (and evidence in support of) pay to win accusations. The air compressor is really quite game changing (and one of the most fun [not debatable] internals in the game), and you have to log a substantial number of hours in order to get it.

 

No, but seriously, why does this exist? The internals and items are not by any means horizontal. Every single one is a benefit to have, and every single player that has them equipped has an advantage over an equivalent player that doesn't have the levels to get reasonable items and internals.

 

Please, tell me why.


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#2
Elite_is_salty

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[not debatable]

inb4 EU players ...


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#3
TheButtSatisfier

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No, but seriously, why does this exist? The internals and items are not by any means horizontal. Every single one is a benefit to have, and every single player that has them equipped has an advantage over an equivalent player that doesn't have the levels to get reasonable items and internals.

 

Not that your point isn't worth debating, but I think any question in this vein can be answered with "They don't consider it important enough to address before hiring new developers and rolling out new content".


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#4
Merl61

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inb4 EU players ...

yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh........


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#5
ticklemyiguana

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Not that your point isn't worth debating, but I think any question in this vein can be answered with "They don't consider it important enough to address before hiring new developers and rolling out new content".

it just seems so simmmmmple thoughhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. Kind of. I figure it's worth discussing, but at the same time, on the list of "comparably simple fuzzy bunny that should be done" I feel like this is high up there, personally.


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#6
Amidatelion

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Better question: Why are you posting during practice?


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#7
TronX33

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Better question: Why are you posting during practice?

Shots fired



#8
ticklemyiguana

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Better question: Why are you posting during practice?

I showed up. I killed things.


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#9
Amidatelion

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I showed up. I killed things.

 

15 minutes and coming in third does not count.

 

You're on mech cleaning duty until further notice.


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#10
ticklemyiguana

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15 minutes and coming in third does not count.

 

You're on mech cleaning duty until further notice.

THIRD BY ONE POINT IN AN EOC INFIL. YOU WATCH IT, YOUNG MAN.


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#11
Nept

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15 minutes and coming in third does not count.

 

You're on mech cleaning duty until further notice.

 

 

https://youtu.be/sS_cAAAhgPM?t=4s


Edited by Nept: Ultra Lord of the God-Kings, 05 October 2015 - 07:25 PM.

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#12
ticklemyiguana

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At least I'm expected to come in first, unlike some people.


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#13
OdinTheWise

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Not that your point isn't worth debating, but I think any question in this vein can be answered with "They don't consider it important enough to address before hiring new developers and rolling out new content".

this may not be as easy to fix as we might think because i have been hearing that there is a mess of spaghetti code and may need a client patch to change. so calm down people. 

 

and tickle is a scrublord


Edited by OdinTheWise, 05 October 2015 - 08:17 PM.

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#14
AxionOperandi

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this may not be as easy to fix as we might think because i have been hearing that there is a mess of spaghetti code and may need a client patch to change. so calm down people. 
 
and tickle is a scrublord


It dosn't seem like much to someone playing the game but I'm sure the prospect of removing it from the game is not trivial. But yeah its pretty much completely meaningless and serves no function, it should be gotten ride of changed significantly.

#15
_incitatus

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I agree, it needs to go.  Just remove level requirements on all of the items and internals.  Although, this would also remove any desire to buy XP boosters.



#16
ticklemyiguana

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I agree, it needs to go.  Just remove level requirements on all of the items and internals.  Although, this would also remove any desire to buy XP boosters.

Well... you didn't say weapons. Or G2 variants.


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#17
Xacius

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At least I'm expected to come in first, unlike some people.

Are you??

 

Is this new?  I don't recall this ever being a thing.  



#18
ticklemyiguana

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Are you??

 

Is this new?  I don't recall this ever being a thing.  

Oh dear lord. You interpreted this as tryhardery. I should've known that the cult of Omni would do that. Let me speak in a language you might understand a bit better.

 


Edited by ticklemyiguana, 05 October 2015 - 09:00 PM.

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#19
Dawn_of_Ash

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It only gives credibility to (and evidence in support of) pay to win accusations.

 

Maybe so, Tickle, but people who do say that the game is P2W are ignorant. There are many popular F2P games that have a few P2W elements in them, but nothing over-the-top. I'm going to quote League of Legends again (because I've been playing too much of it. ;(). League is one of the most popular Free-to-play games out there and has a Runes system that is similar to Hawken's upgrade system - which was removed for not being "noob friendly". (Still a bad move in my opinion - how many level 15s do you see nowadays). Yet, we still see League as one of the most popular games out there!

 

What your suggesting, Tickle, is kind of Dota's point of view. Unlock everything game-changing from the beginning. This includes ALL the characters - or in our case, mechs. Yet, still, League is more popular than Dota - and don't even challenge me on that fact because it IS a fact. I do not know why this is the case - although I think League is a bit more forgiving (but not the playerbase).

 

Anyways, my point - Dota's view does not make it more popular. And we need moar popular!

 

#bringbackthetuningsystem

 

Edit: Actually. I've got a suggestion. Maybe unlock items/internals whenever you level up and it would be available for all mechs. An example would be the Air Compressor. Maybe get the AC when you reach level 30 and it would be unlocked for all mechs then?


Edited by Dawn_of_Ash, 05 October 2015 - 09:37 PM.


#20
IareDave

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At least I'm expected to come in first, unlike some people.

Are you??

 

Is this new?  I don't recall this ever being a thing.  

Shut up Xacius. You can't even begin to fathom the responsibility burdened upon the best 'SS player in Hawken'.


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#21
Massive_Assailant_Stingray

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Why do we still have a vertical progression system?

 

Preach!



#22
ticklemyiguana

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Shut up Xacius. You can't even begin to fathom the responsibility burdened upon the best 'SS player in Hawken'.

That was you! You were rather salty that night. You casual. The joke went best SS NA. Git gud.


Edited by ticklemyiguana, 05 October 2015 - 09:53 PM.

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#23
IareDave

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That was you! You were rather salty that night. You casual. The joke went best SS NA. Git gud.

I wasn't there. Just heard it from others.

 

:)



#24
Xacius

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Oh dear lord. You interpreted this as tryhardery. I should've known that the cult of Omni would do that. Let me speak in a language you might understand a bit better.

 

You mean the same cult that you tried to talk your way into?  


Edited by Xacius, 05 October 2015 - 10:04 PM.


#25
ticklemyiguana

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I wasn't there. Just heard it from others.

 

:)

 

You mean the same cult that you tried to talk your way into?  

Now now. I expect better from you. There are a few people on this forum who have a hard time taking a joke, but I've never known you all to be quite so delicate.

 

We've had plenty of times together; if you're sincerely misinterpreting my humor, I'd suggest a private/steam message. or a teamspeak chat, instead of derailing a perfectly good thread.

 

Edit: It's a great time for an edit. 3:00 in the morning. Best time ever. But you two seriously just jumped in here without prior involvement looking for a fight. It's more than public knowledge that portraying Omni as some sort of cult is an open joke. It's reasonably public knowledge that when I actually played the game, I was an extremely proficient SS player. But you both just barged into a thread basically looking to stomp around and wave your willies. Now, I like both of you. I do. We've had some good times together, and I'm rather miffed that you've lost that spirit, but I really won't accept this nonsense.

 

Contribute or leave.


Edited by ticklemyiguana, 05 October 2015 - 11:06 PM.

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#26
LarryLaffer

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A vertical progression system itself is not a bad thing and can serve for many purposes, such as restricting newbies from playing in high level rooms, giving players some sense of progression (even if it is false, but people like it for some reason) or even motivating players to donate. But the thing is that there was a lot of significant changes made in game balance and players' progress, so current vertical progression system is kinda useless and should be re-worked IMO.


Edited by LarryLaffer, 06 October 2015 - 12:05 AM.

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#27
Dawn_of_Ash

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A vertical progression system itself is not a bad thing and can serve for many purposes, such as restricting newbies from playing in high level rooms, giving players some sense of progression (even if it is false, but people like it for some reason) or even motivating players to donate. But the thing is that there was a lot of significant changes made in game balance and players' progress, so current vertical progression system is kinda useless and should be re-worked IMO.

 

So, bring back the Tuning System? :D



#28
WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW

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Maybe so, Tickle, but people who do say that the game is P2W are ignorant. There are many popular F2P games that have a few P2W elements in them, but nothing over-the-top. I'm going to quote League of Legends again (because I've been playing too much of it. ;(). League is one of the most popular Free-to-play games out there and has a Runes system that is similar to Hawken's upgrade system - which was removed for not being "noob friendly". (Still a bad move in my opinion - how many level 15s do you see nowadays). Yet, we still see League as one of the most popular games out there!

 

What your suggesting, Tickle, is kind of Dota's point of view. Unlock everything game-changing from the beginning. This includes ALL the characters - or in our case, mechs. Yet, still, League is more popular than Dota - and don't even challenge me on that fact because it IS a fact. I do not know why this is the case - although I think League is a bit more forgiving (but not the playerbase).

 

Anyways, my point - Dota's view does not make it more popular. And we need moar popular!

 

#bringbackthetuningsystem

 

Edit: Actually. I've got a suggestion. Maybe unlock items/internals whenever you level up and it would be available for all mechs. An example would be the Air Compressor. Maybe get the AC when you reach level 30 and it would be unlocked for all mechs then?

 

they're both mobas, hawken should be a moba. instant success, no need to worry about fallacies concerning coincidences, no need to concern ourselves with whether popularity makes p2w okay or that popularity would somehow negate that.

 

why not everyone rename themselves to WWWWWW...WWWW as well? It's a good idea because I am the greatest great.


Thank you for your time,

 

WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW


#29
LarryLaffer

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So, bring back the Tuning System? :D

In its old aka "ascension" concept - definitely no. But a Tuning System which keeps two similar mechs equal in terms of balance no matter what and only helps to alter playstyle has right to live. Actually the current "items-internals" system is one of many examples of such tuning systems, but the problem is that a mech with items and internals has more options to destroy opponents and survive on battlefield than a mech without them. So if we will change current system from "equip your mech from scratch" to "alter your mech's equipment",  then it will be much more like tuning system from my POV.

 

P.S. This is just one of countless examples of tuning systems. I hope devs will make something really cool about it which will help to get more people into Hawken.


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#30
comic_sans

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stupid + cocky + missing the point

 

 

 

dumb + pointless + missing the point

 

normal_the_wooing_of_abigail_jones_hoss_

 

The hell, guys?  This thread went from eh to beyond stupid FAST.  I am cringing.


Edited by cringe_smells, 06 October 2015 - 03:43 AM.

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#31
Amidatelion

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normal_the_wooing_of_abigail_jones_hoss_

 

 

i liked this post because Hoss


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#32
PoopSlinger

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Shut up Xacius. You can't even begin to fathom the responsibility burdened upon the best 'SS player in Hawken'.

Yeah we lean on Nepr real hard.  http://www.twitch.tv...inga/v/19377217

Best SS NA


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Come on Crafty, you have been officially called out on your lies. Your online reputation is at stake here, this is just like an old school street race running for pink slips. Its run what you brung and hope its enough. Put up or shut the fuzzy bunny up.


#33
Silverfire

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At least I'm expected to come in first, unlike some people.

I came in first for my team at least for that MA.

Amid note my superiority to tickle plz

Edited by Silverfire, 06 October 2015 - 04:57 AM.

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#34
Amidatelion

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Gets baited.

I came in first for my team at least for that MA.

Amid note my superiority to tickle plz


Not hard.

Also I'm turning off the wifi until you both behave.
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#35
Dawn_of_Ash

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they're both mobas, hawken should be a moba. instant success, no need to worry about fallacies concerning coincidences, no need to concern ourselves with whether popularity makes p2w okay or that popularity would somehow negate that.

 

If Hawken was a MOBA, it wouldn't be Hawken.

 

The thing that makes Hawken not appealing for people right now is how generic it is. It's a generic FPS. No progression. No anything to make you WANT to continue playing it. People say "you play it because it's fun", well, yes, maybe, but first you need to have fun. Who has fun not feeling that they are getting anywhere? Who has fun to play the same mech over and over and over again until the grind is over and they can get another one? Who has fun learning controls and strategies and stuff if they can just play COD and have more success?

 

People are lazy. Modern society is lazy. Many of the modern technology are trying to find ways to make things easier for us to use (or whatever) and we still buy it. Many of us would rather spend more money than do a little more.

 

If a person has started to play League and invest hours into it before their friend tells them to play Dota and they realise it is similar, do you think that the person would move to Dota? I can bet that there are many people disagreeing with me saying that they are completely diferent games - which is my point. If the game doesn't seem to offer anything unique in the first few hours of playing, then why invest any more time in it? Why should I play this COD with a mech skin if I could just play COD and get more success and less frustrated?

 

There has been a joke around the high-tier players where someone says "Don't ruin my mech simulator"  in a sarcastic way. As if that is not a legitimate way to take the game. Maybe I'm ignorant because I was not here when the Tuning System was up and the TTK was higher, but I disagree in both regards in how they changed it. People think that the TTK is better now, and maybe it is, but now mechs can be super brittle and feel more human than mech. This is most obviously seen in A-Class mechs who get focused and killed without milli-seconds. Anyways, TTK is not my main hate. The removal of the Tuning System was a step in the wrong direction. Big time. Reasons such as "it made the veterens OP" makes me want to facepalm after one look at the over-priced internals and items. Was I supposed to feel happy that they removed the only thing that didn't fit into the COD loadout of "items, perks and weapons".

 

I'm really sorry that this sort of turned into a rant, but when I came here originally, I had kept tabs on the game for over a year as I waited to get a good enough computer. The one thing that hyped me up the most was the opportunity to make my mechs unique and to disobey the meta (a word I didn't know back then...). When I did eventually get the game and was told that it was removed, I was utterly heartbroken. Heatbroken.

 

I can understand that the devs did it for balance. But there was so many other ways for them to fix it without utterly removing it. I do not trust people saying that it was horrible when the game had a greater population back then and destroying any chance of me having my own unique mech. As for optimal builds in the tuning system - stuff them. I just want to have fun.


Edited by Dawn_of_Ash, 06 October 2015 - 05:55 AM.

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#36
Amidatelion

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Boy am I wrong. Let me tell you how enthusiastically wrong I am starting with a whoosh and ending equating not even my personal experience but just my opinion with a. others' and b. facts.


Edited by Amidatelion, 06 October 2015 - 06:57 AM.


#37
_incitatus

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Well... you didn't say weapons. Or G2 variants.


Sorry, all that fuzzy bunny too. They only thing stopping pilots from buying stuff should be a lack of HC.

#38
Elite_is_salty

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Y'all ain't got fuzzy bunny on Nepr...


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#39
ticklemyiguana

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Apologies on the above posts. I acted a little cocky to take a jab at nept, and realistically, it was dumb. My team actually kicks a lot of ass, and I'm less upset at the derailment than how I spoke about my team, even in jest.

Also I don't do SS for B. I do EOC INFIL bitches!

I'm actually pretty hungover, so my interpretation of some of the above posts are... Paraphrased at best.

I personally think that progression in terms of stuff that physically affects gameplay is wrong. If there were a video games ethics committee, they'd be all "this is bad and you should feel bad." Now that's just me, but I also feel there's a little bit of evidence that Dawn is scraping the surface of something accurate. All fun factors equal, a game that makes you feel like you're progressing is going to hold the attention of players better than a game that doesn't.

However, that doesn't need to come in the form of gameplay altering mechanics. Some of the games I have enjoyed playing and investe more hours in than any other have had just a single form of "progression" without any of that stuff. Wanna guess?

Halo 2 and CS GO.

What sort of progression? They have meaningful levels. In Halo 2 I was so invested in this system I worked my way up to level freaking 50 in FFA. At the time for me, that felt like a huge accomplishment. Ten years later it actually still does. Neither give you anything for those levels, other than matching you with better and better players. When you invest time into the game, you're not investing in a new weapon or item that the developers hid behind a grind wall. You're investing in your skill at the game - and I think players interpret that as meaningful. Whether or not players actively think about these things, I believe to some extent, that there's a feeling of cheapness imparted to the player when a multiplayer game is designed around unlocking itself.

I'm not fully against needing to unlock mechs. I'm absolutely against only starting with one, and one that you have no choice over. I'm absolutely against needing to level up to unlock anything. However despite the above, removing the concept of HC entirely may be a little much in a game that has so much to offer. I think to a degree it encourages experimentation, in that there's a mentality of "I payed for this so I might as well use it."

Eh. Thoughts and things.
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#40
Sylhiri

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Also I don't do SS for B. I do EOC INFIL bitches!

 

You can learn a lot from tickle, silver. :0






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