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Is the Technician actually bad for this game?

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#1
harmless_kittens

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I don't know if I'm the only one who feels this way.  And I'm probably wrong, as usual.  But a couple weeks ago I started getting a sour taste in my mouth in any match where the other side had a really competent Tech, and we didn't.  This feeling in me has grown worse and worse, such that I now consider it (especially the dreaded Tech/Incin combo) "broken", and I am leaving any match where a competent enemy Tech pairs up with the other "best" player on the enemy team.  This is because in all but one case I have seen, our team is on its way to losing badly when this occurs.

 

It shouldn't be this way.  There shouldn't be some magic spell that players can cast that assures their victory.  But, inevitably, once I see this on the battlefield - that enemy (usually a heavy) dragging a "cord" behind them with a healing Tech on the end, I then see them take 1 of us out, move on to number 2, then 3, etc.  Again, I'm not talking about just any tech player, but one who knows what they are doing and teams up with the "other" best player on the enemy team.

 

I know what most will say - "Just use a Tech on YOUR team.  Problem solved."  Yeah, tried that.  I'm a horrible player anyway, and in Tech I'm even worse.  As for getting someone on my team to switch to a Tech, I don't know how to do that.  Last night I "lucked out" in one match where I was Brawler and my team-mates were Tech, Predator, Predator.  And the Tech ran around healing the Predators!?  Others will say  - "Just focus on that Tech and kill it first."  Again, tried that.  First of all, this usually only works if you have other team-mates at that exact location doing the same thing.  As for me taking it out on my own?  Umm, there's a competent perma-health mech defending them, AND the Tech is healing itself while it heals his buddy (especially if he uses his special).

 

It just seems to me personally the game has way too much healing already.  In the above scenario, if one/both of these enemies are also "orblording" then it makes it even worse.  You can already heal to full whenever you want.  Then the death orbs add more.  Then you can pack on 3 more death orbs for some insta-heals.  Then you can gain an additional 25% from every orb you consume, and finally you can start healing after every kill or assist.  Then let's consider Turret mode on a Brawler giving a perma-10% heal and additional defense to a mech that already has 800 health, or a Vanguard or Rocketeer in Turret mode who take significantly less damage from anything but a rear assault.  All of this healing/defense is BEFORE adding a new and exciting Mech that can heal itself by healing his team-mates, has a primary that will make his enemies take more incoming damage, and his special is a super-speed heal.  And I already mentioned that the Tech/Incin combo feels VERY "broken" to me.

 

Anyway, I'm just rambling now, so I'll bring this to a close.  It just seems to me that in a game about taking down the enemy's health and killing them, adding more ways for that enemy to never die is counter-intuitive.  It creates "turtling", which I despise in a game like this.  Enemies forming an impenetrable wall and saying "Come and get me." instead of seek and destroy.  I'm usually all for diversity and new mechs, but for me adding the Tech took the game in the wrong direction.  

 

Thanks for letting me vent though.  Be gentle :)


Edited by harmless_kittens, 05 May 2016 - 07:36 AM.

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#2
angryhampster

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since you are a harmless_kitten, what will you do if im not gentle?  nothang!

 

Never liked the technician, never will...

 

to me, the game lost it's originality when that mech showed up.  it became another team fortress.  take out repair orbs and repairing if they want the technician to be in the game. edit: even with the repair orb and repairing removed, i would still hate it.   =(


Edited by angryhampster, 05 May 2016 - 07:19 AM.

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#3
coldform

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Holy crap. Harmless kittens is learning very fast pace.

HK, you have GOT to come by the hkts. Everything you are moving towards can be expedited if you just make he move.

Did you figure out the health abundance issue by yourself?

I like going against the best of any game I play. Helps you in the long run n motivates u to do more. Always room for improvement not failure

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#4
Hyginos

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I'm willing to bet there are several extensive posts being typed up right now but I would like to point out that "shoot the tech" does not necessarily mean "kill the tech" or even "severely wound the tech".

 

Every time the tech takes or deals any damage it cuts the healing down dramatically for a few seconds. Just by poking it you can make cracks in the defense.

 

EDIT: I would add that, in countering tech, you should consider that you are actually countering a tech-heavy pair or a frontline of some kind. In my mind the 'fire with fire' approach only works if you are fairly sure you can meet the enemy team on their terms and win. This is a crap shoot in pubs, especially if you're pulling a tech and hoping another player will be a solid heavy for you. EMP spam, assassination mechs like raider, infiltrator, or pred, or mechs that can poke from a safe distance like sharpshooter or reaper may all be good options if you don't want to try to brute force a symmetrical battle.


Edited by Hyginos, 05 May 2016 - 07:32 AM.

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#5
StubbornPuppet

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I have swayed back and forth on my feelings about the Technician ever since it's release.  I don't know that I've ever decided, conclusively, whether it should be fixed or removed.

 

The biggest problem I see with it is in the scoring - it receives way, way too many points for healing and damage done with the leech beam.  A player can go deep into the negative KDR in a tech and still be the top player in the match, just because of points.

 

As for the "If you are getting beat because there's a tech on the opposing team, go get a tech on your own team." argument...  I can kind of see both sides of that.

 

There have been a hundred good suggestions over the years as to things that the devs should try to see if it balances the Technician back out with the rest of the game... I sure hope Reloaded tries some of them.  I'm not ready to ask for it to be removed though.


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To be serious for a moment this is just a joke

 


#6
harmless_kittens

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With all the other ways for it to heal itself, I'd only like the Tech's healing beam to NOT heal itself.  It's not even thematic, like the "Vampire" option is.  "I'm healing you now, so that should make me feel better too."  Huh?  The removal of its self-healing (non-Vampire) beam would make it easier to kill, and likely balance things better.  In fact I'd probably be fine with the special still healing itself - just not the constant self-healing beam when healing another mech.

 

(And Yes, I guess I did discover most of this on my own through experience.  For example I like using healing Items and/or Internals on my Vanguard, Brawler, Sharpshooter and Predator.  But I've seen how the healing sources can be abused too, which made me think the Tech is just too much healing.)


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#7
claisolais

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Tech is a team player, I would say we don't have much of a team these days. 

 

Having a tech in the beginning is somehow helpful, so the team will fight like they have a tech, that helps.

On the other hand, half-way switched tech, sometimes I find it's hard for team to realize that they have a tech.

 

Still, depends on your team. I've seen many tech gave up on being a tech because their team is not playing team game, and I've seen many good players switched to a tech to brought their team together.


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#8
Sokram

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You just counter tech with another tech....do that till both teams are all tech.  And then the first one who picks assault wins.


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#9
StubbornPuppet

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Tech is a team player, I would say we don't have much of a team these days. 

 

Having a tech in the beginning is somehow helpful, so the team will fight like they have a tech, that helps.

On the other hand, half-way switched tech, sometimes I find it's hard for team to realize that they have a tech.

 

Still, depends on your team. I've seen many tech gave up on being a tech because their team is not playing team game, and I've seen many good players switched to a tech to brought their team together.

 

Good post.  That's definitely part of my tug-o-war debate with myself over it.


To be serious for a moment this is just a joke

 


#10
TheButtSatisfier

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 the Tech/Incin combo feels VERY "broken" to me.

 

It's not just a feeling. In fact, they do synergize very well .

 

A tech can keep an incinerator from having to heal, which extends the amount of time that an incinerator can keep its primary spinning and generating heat to fire its secondary. An incinerator's primary has a very long spin up time, and many consider that to be one of its greatest weaknesses. That's why we consider incinerators to be ideal EMP targets.

 

Conversely, standing near a friendly incinerator will siphon off your heat faster than otherwise. This allows the technician to heal and shoot for longer. Players also tend to congregate near technicians in general, so you get a death-ball effect when people clump near a technician that also happens to be near an incinerator. Now everyone has less heat to deal with on top of being healed by a technician that can heal longer.


Edited by TheButtSatisfier, 05 May 2016 - 08:04 AM.

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8) Tech in the streets, Brawler in the sheets (8


#11
DeeRax

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Play grenadier, spam EMPs. EMPS. EMPS.

But seriously, yeah, tech can be pretty stupid sometimes. I will say, from my own observations, they were more of an insurmountable obstacle when I was newer (I am still fairly newish, for the record), and for awhile afterward. In higher MMR matches, where most folks are on a relatively even playing field, I've noticed it's become easier to focus fire and take out an enemy tech than it once was (Unless said tech is REALLY good; It happens). Even the cheesy tech + incin combo doesn't generally frighten me as much anymore. Often, if you can manage to deal enough damage to the tech, they will simply skidaddle, which makes their chosen fatty easy to take down when the majority of your team is there (While someone else goes off to run down the wounded coward tech). If your team has its fuzzy bunny together, very often an enemy tech becomes a liability for the other team.

Also, again... EMPS (I don't even really use EMPs anymore, except on certain mechs, but it was once my go-to spamitem)


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#12
CrimsonKaim

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Focus the Tech, even if that menas that all of the team dies. If it is dead, totally worth it.


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#13
DallasCreeper

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Focus the Tech, even if that menas that all of the team dies. If it is dead, totally worth it.

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#14
CrimsonKaim

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Your name is no longer fake? 0.o

 

Read my pofile description :)

 

I changed it some days ago.


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#15
Kopra

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The scoring system of the Technician shoots its own team in the foot, as the Technician-only player will accumulate too high of an MMR and get teammates that are less and less able to perform at a basic level. The team with a high MMR tech that can't play anything else will very likely lose to a half-decent team.

 

If the MMR is low, the Technician player can still be effective. While a good sniper will likely outdamage a poor one, a poor Tech still heals the same amount as a good one. The presence of a Technician also means that you will have to play around the Technician specifically, which is untrue for most other mechs in the game. You can ignore a bad Sharpshooter because they can't hit anything, you can just blast away a bad Scout because they position themselves poorly, but a bad Tech can stay behind enemy lines and be a force multiplier just by being present and looking at the general direction of their team.

 

If you have somewhat balanced teams (an anomaly in this game outside of organized stuff) then you can think more about different strategies like overcoming with superior firepower or flanking with mechs that can take out Techs with ease.

Is the Tech fine then?

 

No.

 

The Technician is still cancer. In a game where you shoot things and need to aim, why does a game like that need to cater to players not interested in that activity? Should we also have a mech that traps enemy mechs in furniture to appease Sims players? A mech that plays a puzzle game whose outcome launches nukes, killing enemies that way? Or how about a mech that plays Texas Hold'em and gives buffs to the entire team based on the hand, only being counterable with another Texas Hold'em mech if they get a better hand?


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#16
angryhampster

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The Technician is still cancer.

 

 

 

strong words, for an mech.   i would be heartbroken to hear this if i was a tech user. lol

 

sad thing is, it's impossible to remove the mech; because some people have spent real physical money on the tech, cosmetics, and other stuff.

 

that would hurt 5% of the community, in which 99% of that 5% isn't playing anymore.



#17
Tom_Neverwinter

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how to combat large groups of mechs. Group up loosely into death ball. Spam aoe and emp. focus techs then next highest agro mech. learn to evade. learn not to feed. use heat to shut down incin. 

 

technician makes sense lore wise. its mechanic may need balancing or use of intelligent tactics


Edited by Tom_Neverwinter, 05 May 2016 - 09:45 AM.


#18
Fantus_Longhorn

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You just counter tech with another tech....do that till both teams are all tech.  And then the first one who picks assault wins.

The irony of this is that all-Tech games are the most fun I've had in this game. Seriously.


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#19
DerMax

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Yes, in its current form it is actually bad for this game.


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#20
Arkhaun

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Yes, in its current form it is actually bad for this game.

yep, i dare say we need another support mech similar in role-over-survival style to counter the stupidity that is 2 techs on a raider team 


SORRY CAPS

 

 

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#21
dorobo

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strong words, for an mech.   i would be heartbroken to hear this if i was a tech user. lol

 

sad thing is, it's impossible to remove the mech; because some people have spent real physical money on the tech, cosmetics, and other stuff.

 

that would hurt 5% of the community, in which 99% of that 5% isn't playing anymore.

You heard of Nosgoth? They shutting down the whole game. 100 percent hurt!

 

Just take it's beam away make em do something else balance that fuzzy bunny problem solved.


Edited by dorobo, 05 May 2016 - 10:52 AM.


#22
PoopSlinger

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RAIDER ITS STUPID TECH FACE RIGHT TO DEATH


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Come on Crafty, you have been officially called out on your lies. Your online reputation is at stake here, this is just like an old school street race running for pink slips. Its run what you brung and hope its enough. Put up or shut the fuzzy bunny up.


#23
Flifang

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Eoc works pretty well if you've got the accuracy for it. Tech does not like burst damage and anything that explodes will occasionally hurt their buddies too. And like what others have said, just by keeping the tech in combat reduces their healing by half so shoot the little bugger as much as you can even if it's just a little.

There is honestly nothing a team who is slightly unorganized facing a team that is more organized in a balanced match can do to win. Once a team starts building that momentum by grabbing the first kill, if the other team doesn't start playing defensive. Heavy mechs will fall to swarms if they're not careful and individuals in that swarm will fall to anything if they're not careful. Completely disregarding everything else, tactics and initiative trumps all when it comes to team matches.

 

And I saw somebody mention the turtle vanguard and I just want to add that to the assassination suggestions. A skillfully placed set of eocs, a grenade, and an H.E. charge pretty much instagibs a turtled vanguard from behind. If you're good at finding openings an infiltrator can 1 shot all the a-class mechs too if they're given a single opening. Run eoc, and full damage items and wait for that slip up and boom dead. Plus they're small and maneuverable which paired with eocs ridiculous effective range and the usefulness of the grenade launcher makes Alpha-sniping techs and other low health targets much easier than trying to engage on their terms.


Edited by Flifang, 05 May 2016 - 12:10 PM.


#24
ticklemyiguana

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!quote ticklemyiguana


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#25
DallasCreeper

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Flank. Kill the tech from behind its team (This is pretty easy, as they show up on radar when they heal). Shoot the tech in the butt and make it go boom. Watch that Incinerator melt to your team like butter next to an Incinerator. 


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#26
Charcoal

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I'm willing to bet there are several extensive posts being typed up right now but I would like to point out that "shoot the tech" does not necessarily mean "kill the tech" or even "severely wound the tech".

 

Every time the tech takes or deals any damage it cuts the healing down dramatically for a few seconds. Just by poking it you can make cracks in the defense.

 

EDIT: I would add that, in countering tech, you should consider that you are actually countering a tech-heavy pair or a frontline of some kind. In my mind the 'fire with fire' approach only works if you are fairly sure you can meet the enemy team on their terms and win. This is a crap shoot in pubs, especially if you're pulling a tech and hoping another player will be a solid heavy for you. EMP spam, assassination mechs like raider, infiltrator, or pred, or mechs that can poke from a safe distance like sharpshooter or reaper may all be good options if you don't want to try to brute force a symmetrical battle.

FWIW, Since I main Rev GL Gren:

I make it a point to work any Tech team and try to keep their movement and healing debuffed via spammage


Edited by Charcoal, 05 May 2016 - 12:28 PM.


#27
harmless_kittens

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Eoc works pretty well if you've got the accuracy for it. Tech does not like burst damage and anything that explodes will occasionally hurt their buddies too. And like what others have said, just by keeping the tech in combat reduces their healing by half so shoot the little bugger as much as you can even if it's just a little.

There is honestly nothing a team who is slightly unorganized facing a team that is more organized in a balanced match can do to win. Once a team starts building that momentum by grabbing the first kill, if the other team doesn't start playing defensive. Heavy mechs will fall to swarms if they're not careful and individuals in that swarm will fall to anything if they're not careful. Completely disregarding everything else, tactics and initiative trumps all when it comes to team matches.

 

And I saw somebody mention the turtle vanguard and I just want to add that to the assassination suggestions. A skillfully placed set of eocs, a grenade, and an H.E. charge pretty much instagibs a turtled vanguard from behind. If you're good at finding openings an infiltrator can 1 shot all the a-class mechs too if they're given a single opening. Run eoc, and full damage items and wait for that slip up and boom dead. Plus they're small and maneuverable which paired with eocs ridiculous effective range and the usefulness of the grenade launcher makes Alpha-sniping techs and other low health targets much easier than trying to engage on their terms.

Thanks.  I main EOC Predator, so I am getting better at taking out Techs from behind (and Vanguards for that matter.  And Yes, I like to take out A Classes in one salvo too.)

 

Regarding "keeping him in combat reduces his healing capability", what does this mean?  The techs I have seen are usually constantly healing even when we're shooting at them.  Am I missing something about the healing ability during combat?



#28
Hecatoncheires

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With all the other ways for it to heal itself, I'd only like the Tech's healing beam to NOT heal itself.  It's not even thematic, like the "Vampire" option is.  "I'm healing you now, so that should make me feel better too."  Huh?  The removal of its self-healing (non-Vampire) beam would make it easier to kill, and likely balance things better.  In fact I'd probably be fine with the special still healing itself - just not the constant self-healing beam when healing another mech.

 

(And Yes, I guess I did discover most of this on my own through experience.  For example I like using healing Items and/or Internals on my Vanguard, Brawler, Sharpshooter and Predator.  But I've seen how the healing sources can be abused too, which made me think the Tech is just too much healing.)

This is probably a comment for the wrong section, but w/e.

 

How about if the tech could still heal itself, like usual, but its healing was set to a definite total rate. So, it would, for example, heal 100% either to another player or distribute its healing rate between another player and itself (assuming it's received damage). The rate for each player would be determined by the amount of missing health, prioritizing the player with the lower health.

 

Or an even more dramatic change would be to distribute its healing equally. So if it needs to heal another player and it's at full health, the beam would heal 100%. If the tech has received damage and needs to heal itself, its beam would heal itself and the other player at 50% until it returns to full health.

 

If you would like to reduce it even further, take the first or second option and add in a chain healing effect, where nearby injured allies get healed automatically stemming from the initial target. The amount healed per person would be reduced that much more depending on how many players gather, ultimately making the tech a potential weakness in tight dogfights.

 

Of course this would also influence how the tech deals damage with the repair torch.


What the Heca-


#29
Sp3ctrr

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Don't remove it, just limit the number of Technicians per team. Ideally, to one. 


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#30
Shade__

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I like to take out A Classes in one salvo

You know whats up! One hitting A-classes is the best!

Ok on tech, i play tech from time to time and i must say i rarely die in it because of the self heal it needs to be nerfed or trashed,
The number of times i almost die as a tech only to self heal to full is BS and then there's the fact i can still kill in it! (pure skill?) 

My idea will be kinda strange and still needs work ill post it here when its done! 


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#31
StubbornPuppet

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Regarding "keeping him in combat reduces his healing capability", what does this mean?  The techs I have seen are usually constantly healing even when we're shooting at them.  Am I missing something about the healing ability during combat?

 

Every time you hit a Technician with a shot, it cuts the amount of energy the heal beam both gives out and takes in by around 1/2.  So, by shooting the Tech, you are slowing down both his ability to heal others and the amount of self healing he gets from healing others.

 

And, in case that is confusing, you might not have known that a Tech gets health by healing others.


To be serious for a moment this is just a joke

 


#32
harmless_kittens

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Yes I knew it heals from healing others from when I used it.  I did NOT know that about less healing when being damaged.  That is at least something...



#33
DemitronPrime

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....

 

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Puck Flinging-Nade Lobbing-Troll Tech

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::eoc Pred::Eoc/HC Infil::Vulcanador::Hawkins Tech::EOC Raider::

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#34
eth0

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Yesssss! I love tech threads.

 

Harmless_kittens: It sounds like everyone else has covered the serious replies so I just want to say keep on keepin on, partner. 

 

RAIDER ITS STUPID TECH FACE RIGHT TO DEATH

 

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Pubstomping is a whole different strategic discussion, however, and usually just becomes an exploration of the ethics of dumpstering randos.

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#35
Arkhaun

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Yesssss! I love tech threads.

 

Harmless_kittens: It sounds like everyone else has covered the serious replies so I just want to say keep on keepin on, partner. 

 

 

 

Kills the tech


SORRY CAPS

 

 

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#36
6ixxer

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I have previously made a couple of suggestions. to reduce this...

1) make tech less healy and more vampy
2) add an item called anti-repair charge that creates a zone that will suck up orb and nerf healing.

Hopefully also force the tech to stop healing and swap to vamp.
This would hopefully make it so a tech would need more time between skirmishes to get the C back to full health.

Actually another suggestion was a mech trap. Trap the C and kill the tech, or trap the tech and kill the C.
EMP also works. C with pocket tech are a bigger target.

Edited by 6ixxer, 05 May 2016 - 06:47 PM.


#37
Shade__

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*snip for length*

I fixed your image

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-Shade__


#38
yapdog

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HK, I think I've played in a match with you where there was a tech/incinerator combo.  I'm usually the outlier on these issues; I don't think any of the mechs are OP, it all comes down to player skill (and I'm a very poor player, myself).  There is no problem that can't be overcome with effective strategy and teamwork.  The solution is to get a small group to go after the combo, and it's toast.  Do this often enough and they have to change up.  Kill the tech, save the world!



#39
dorobo

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ye it's killable and all but a good tech will expect  your flanking especially when their team is in a leading position and camping a chokepoint.

For them to defend that is much easier than for other team to do some suicide flanking mission  :ninja: Other thing is that trading a good infiltrator for a shitty technician is still a shitty trade. 

 

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Edited by dorobo, 06 May 2016 - 02:16 AM.

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#40
harmless_kittens

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Well, I tested this again last night.  First two matches I noticed that our best player was using an Incinerator, so I picked Tech.  And even though I'm probably really bad at it, we won 40-21 and 40-23.  My "partner" and I would get several kills in a row before I (and then he) would die and start it all over again.  I also noticed that I got second place in each match, which is very rare for me, so I see what you mean about the artificial MMR increase being off.

 

Then I observed what happened in the other matches where the other side had a tech and we didn't.  Out of maybe 6 matches, we only won 1, and it was by only 1 point.  I was in my Predator in each match, lobbing everything I had at the Tech, but its REALLY hard to kill him without team-mates helping out.  And you can predict what happens when he dies.  We then kill the guy he was healing.  Then we get another kill or two - things are looking good.  Then the other team "mysteriously" starts getting loads of kills again while we get none.  By the last match it was weird how I could "prognosticate" what was happening on the battlefield just by watching the kill scores at the top of the screen - 1) Lots of deaths on our side - Their Tech is doing well.  2) Two quick kills for us - We must have killed the tech and whomever he was healing.  3) A brief, more even exchange of kills - Tech and "biggie" haven't arrived and "paired up" yet.  4) Lots of deaths on our side again - Tech is healing again.  Like I said earlier, matches should NOT be this predictable.


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