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#1
DryLeaves

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  • I wish more players would play MA (Missile Assault) because it's the best mode which really empower individual skill and decision making while also letting the weaker players contribute instead of ruining (no feeding)
  • I wish they were a 3v3 or 4v4 TDM (Teadm Death Match) servers as anything more then that usualy leads to zerging and camping and basically a cowardly gameplay from many players
  • I wish players will stop playing Siege as it is all about zerging and camping and then I have no on to play MA with :P

Who's with me?



#2
Zuurkern

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On your first two point: yes, I am with you.



#3
PoopSlinger

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Come on Crafty, you have been officially called out on your lies. Your online reputation is at stake here, this is just like an old school street race running for pink slips. Its run what you brung and hope its enough. Put up or shut the fuzzy bunny up.


#4
Pastorius

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I think Siege is one of the best game modes in HAWKEN. The problem is that a great deal of the population don't know how to play it well and just resort to TDM tactics. MA is my favourite game mode, especially on the fast maps but again, a lot of the population don't really get how to play it well. I  think that a lot of the issue here is the lack of VOIP, especially in the lower tiers as team tactics are critical to good games of Siege and MA. The only time we get a really good quality Siege game is at Clan practice when both sides can communicate and coordinate with squad leaders in separate TeamSpeak rooms.  

 

As for TDM, when it's done well its great fun. Sometimes two teams can go up to 5 minutes without a kill. Sneaking around, poking shots out and drawing the opposition into the open with a cheeky A class on the flank. Thinking tactically about where best to hold up and when to push in a s a team. It can be a really intense mode and not the usual ball of fire and death that you get in the pubs.

 

I would suggest that if you want the best out of HAWKEN you hook up with one of the clans. There are some awesome teams that play regularly and I'm sure that they can offer you a lot of what your looking for.   


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KOBALT DEFENCE REGIMENT

...and let slip the dogs of war...

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#5
reVelske

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MA gets a bit dull as it can really turn into a full game of run-from-point-A-to-point-B and rinse and repeat, maybe find someone else at the Silo and engage in a little skirmish. Individual skill and decision making? Maybe if it's a smaller room, perhaps, otherwise no, no more than Siege and TDM at least IMHO.

 

Problem with Siege is that you need good team communication, if you get a bunch of people who frankly have no interest in communicating or even listening to instructions, then you will inevitably have a bad time. Sadly, majority of the player don't care to listen or communicate, all they are interested in is killing the first thing they see and hopefully pretty up their K/D in the process. That said, it is the most engaging and strategic mode of the lot and my personal favourite, and "individual skill and decision making"? There is easily more room for those on Siege than MA. Zerging? Sounds like another word for "team cohesion" to me. Camping? A team with bad co-od can easily be overran by just 2-3 smart Siege players.


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#6
dorobo

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It's much more obvious whos going to win in MA compared to siege almost from the start of the match.


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#7
DryLeaves

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It's much more obvious whos going to win in MA compared to siege almost from the start of the match.

Really? I have the exact opposite feeling, that Siege is much much more "snowbolly" were usually the first group to lunch and capture AA might as well win the whole game, while in MA I had many matchs that got turned around,  even several times within the same match


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#8
DryLeaves

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I do agree with you all that with good balanced teams where players communicate large TDM and siege can be great, but it rarely happens in pugs.

While although MA can be played to higher level with a communicative teams where you will have dedicated bunkers and roamers, I feel that it is more likely to have a good game without any communication because the basic nature of it - see point being captured? go there. Your whole team is just moving together from point to point? go to one of the other nodes where you can help by capturing empty nodes/or with 1-2 enemies or go harass a bunch of enemies on another node while your team outnumbers their friends in the other 2 nodes.

 

So again, I agree with you all, but from my experience: on public servers the most fun I can get is always MA


Edited by DryLeaves, 26 May 2015 - 06:08 AM.


#9
reVelske

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First launch is pretty irrelevant, it's all a matter of who decided to go to which EU and how the engagement went down, it's quite the coin toss IMHO. Capturing and keeping AA, however, is a different story. If a team fails to cap or hold AA the first time, they are likely to fail the next however many times unless room hasn't been filled up and more skilled/dimwitted players join to tip the balance. Also, a team who is bad at wrestling AA away from the opposing team may very well be relatively decent at HOLDING AA (vice versas for the opposing team), so, anything could happen when correct strategy is applied to the EN collection/ship launch.

 

If your near full team can neither cap or hold AA, then you know it's a complete fail Siege game, though there are still some fun to be had if you team actually TRIES to cap/hold AA, no shame in being outclassed, it can still be an engaging match regardless and offers some challenging practice. It's only frustrating and a complete waste of time when most of your team prefer to sit outside and play trench warfare as if they are being helpful.

 

Also, you don't need that much communication in TDM, stick together, cover each other's back, it doesn't need to be any more complicated than that.


Edited by reVelske, 26 May 2015 - 06:12 AM.

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#10
StubbornPuppet

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I love Missile Assault and agree it needs more players and love.

 

However, I have some disagreements with both the point and sentiment behind the OP's comment that, "it's the best mode which really empower individual skill and decision making while also letting the weaker players contribute instead of ruining (no feeding)"

 

Sorry, "No it isn't."  Missile Assault is even more about teamwork than any other game mode.  If a player is trying to rely solely their empowered sense of individual skill and thinks they can take and hold silos fast enough to foster a win, I think they will usually find themselves headed for a team loss.

 

Missile Assault requires a great knowledge of the specific map and the ability of an entire team to rally towards exploiting the strengths and weaknesses of each map.  Each map generally has two silos which are the ideal silos to hold and one silo which it is better to intentionally give to the enemy.  Take "Last Eco" for instance: your team should be striving to hold S1 and S3 at all costs and avoiding holding S2.  1 and 3 are easy to travel between and, once held, allow control of the middle/high ground to keep the other team at bay.  S2 provides terrible spawn points which are too exposed and require a great deal of travel, across dangerous terrain, to get to either 1 or 3.  So, if you leave S2 to the enemy, they are stuck with crap spawning and have to try to escape under fire.

 

It takes everyone on the team cooperating and being willing to "hold" their position.  You have to get three guys to commit to working together at S1 and three guys to commit to work S3... and you have to hope you don't have some Rambo ruin the entire plan by taking S2.  The moment you have S2, the other team starts spawning behind S1 and S3... and your plan is ruined.

 

I'm not saying that having a great player on the team can't be a huge asset, and that it is more complicated than the strategies to win a Siege match.  I'm just saying that "teamwork" is the most important part of Missile Assault.


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To be serious for a moment this is just a joke

 


#11
DryLeaves

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Good reading ^^

 

I might need to rephrase that " really empower individual skill" - I was meaning to say that each that each player can have the feeling of "oh I am saving the game right now" buy doing many different actions without the need for teamwork, which usuly you just don't have on public server. And this is in contrast to the other modes where in TDM - if you fight 3v1 and lose you feed, if you join your outnumbered team just so they can hold for 1 more min- you feed.  or siege - where if you harvest EU without coordination you miss lunch or just wasting time, if you and some others attack AA without coordination - u wasted time.

 

In Siege and TDM there are very few moves you can do a lone which will actually benefit your team and not hurt it, this leads most public games to the mechball strategy of: "stay all together all the time" - and the team that manages that is the winner.

While in MA you have many "solo" moves which make a good impact, while the strategy of the mechball will lose to a simple counter of single roamers



#12
Badtings

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I would love to have a 4v4 TDM on Bunker. 


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#13
reVelske

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In Siege and TDM there are very few moves you can do a lone which will actually benefit your team

 

A good Raider or Scout (or any mech really) can be HUGELY disruptive on a AA defending team, simply being able to draw attention and force the enemy team to turn their back on rest of your team can make a world of difference in wrestling AA control.


Edited by reVelske, 26 May 2015 - 09:41 AM.


#14
MajyckToad

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TDM. hmm.

couple nights ago i was in one that was a 6v6 poke'n'pop camping festival, in Facility. i snuck around to silo3 and banged a couple off from my Reaper and hauled butt right across the fire-field, with 2 in hot pursuit.

did my team jump and pounce? yes. and slaughter them? nope.

it immediately disintegrated into a bunch of 1v1 chase/toe-to-toe games of tag, complete with the usual air hang-time targets. a real jaw-dropper of a stupid match. we won, how i don't know.

this brings us to all those suggestions of noob intro Mandatory VR-Training tutorials. this may be the only solution to fiascoes such as this afflicting MA, and particularly, Siege mode. many new folks (because voip is broken) either haven't considered, or don't want to be bothered with TS or setting it up, or just really don't have an understanding how critical team comms is.

They might as well stay in DM otherwise.


Edited by MajyckToad, 26 May 2015 - 10:02 AM.

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#15
Pastorius

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MA you have many "solo" moves which make a good impact

 

Not always true and quite dangerous in higher tier games.

Say you are playing an MA on Facility, A round map like Bunker too, both very fast maps for MA. In the bottom end of the pubs sure, you will get two balls of thunder occupying each other with TDM tactics and this gives the smarter individual a chance to go off and cap unoccupied silos. In the better quality matches this wont happen as often at all.

 

There are a couple of common tactics for round maps (especially) and the obvious one is to cap two silo's quickly then leave two people at the first to hold it (for as long as they can) while the other four kite to the third leaving the second unoccupied. When the first is lost, the team then moves around the clock making sure they have the two silo advantage. One mech (on it's own) is not enough to suppress a squad attacking a silo for long enough. It's good to have two B classes or perhaps a C with a Tech maybe? 4 A classes in the other squad and your good to go. If you are on the less dominant side, this cycle is tough to get out of once it starts but it can be broken. If you fail at stopping it however, you do loose valuable time and perhaps, the game. 

Another tactic is to split into two squads (A's B's and C's) and simply try to hold a silo each for as long as you can. (The thing is that people often see red and disappear out the cap zone to chase down that all important kill and then silos get lost). If you do loose one then when you spawn, you head straight to the nearest unoccupied silo and try to hold that. The two teams must be communicating where the opposing team is at all times. In fact with both scenarios, communication is the key. 

 

Anyways, in MA the team that adopts the single ball of death approach should loose or something is going very very wrong. MA seams simple but (as people have said here) most new players are so worried about their KD and MMR that they forget they are playing MA and what the objective is.

 

MA is definitely my favourite HAWKEN Game Mode, if and when it's played well. 

 

I simply cannot agree that it's about individual skill though for all the reasons I have stated above. This thread is cool though and there are some really good thoughts and discussions here. 


Edited by (KDR) Pastorius, 26 May 2015 - 10:09 AM.

KOBALT DEFENCE REGIMENT

...and let slip the dogs of war...

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#16
Nightfirebolt

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Siege requires actual strategy. MA just comes down to whoever has the strongest team, generally speaking.

 

Once, I entered a siege game where my team's base had 40 HP left, and the enemy base had 3000. After applying some careful tactics, we won. That kind of thing just doesn't happen in MA.

 

So no, I will not play more MA, as I find it to be far less dynamic and basically just a more drawn-out version of TDM.


Edited by Nightfirebolt, 26 May 2015 - 04:41 PM.


#17
Pastorius

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 So no, I will not play more MA, as I find it to be far less dynamic and basically just a more drawn-out version of TDM.


I'm afraid that's the entire problem right there in a nice, tidy little nutshell.

KOBALT DEFENCE REGIMENT

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#18
CrimsonKaim

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  • I wish more players would play MA (Missile Assault) because it's the best mode which really empower individual skill and decision making while also letting the weaker players contribute instead of ruining (no feeding)
  • I wish they were a 3v3 or 4v4 TDM (Teadm Death Match) servers as anything more then that usualy leads to zerging and camping and basically a cowardly gameplay from many players
  • I wish players will stop playing Siege as it is all about zerging and camping and then I have no on to play MA with :P
Who's with me?</p>

Probably many. Except for Siege. Bunker Siege is insane.
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#19
dorobo

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I think it was my favorite game mode long time ago but how can it stay that way if I don't play it :] It can be more dynamic compared to siege but.. 

"in MA the team that adopts the single ball of death approach should loose or something is going very very wrong." Well... single ball team of a classes in MA that are skillwise better will run around points whole game crushing opponents and thats it just a matter of time those rockets shooting constantly unlike siege. You can do all this clockwise separate team thing and hold two points but it is very risky as that ball of a classes will crush them both one after the other very fast and will keep going around caching solo heroes.

I feel that map size and design for this game mode is very important. On map like a bunker it can be very fun and dynamic as you see all gamefield like a chess board you spawn close to things and it's non stop action (great for pub games) and on map like frontline communication play a much larger role as when you commit to capturing something you will spend long time solo getting there planning on turning the tide and you get killed and it cost your team much more.

I rly have to get back to my dayjob :D



#20
Pastorius

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Dorobo, the point is that a single 'balled up' team can only be in one place at a time in a game that is won by dominating two out of three Silo's. If you cannot win against this tactic then yes, something is very, very wrong indeed. You simply take the two silo's where the death ball is not... well... at. Teamwork and communication is the key but that has been my point all along here. 


KOBALT DEFENCE REGIMENT

...and let slip the dogs of war...

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#21
System64

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I wish the Grenadier had its turret mode back.


Edited by System64, 27 May 2015 - 03:14 AM.

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#22
dorobo

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I get all that :) and partly agree with you. But if that ball is also just a tiny bit smart it will win. Doing complicated strategies rarely rewarded in this game. 

Anyways my point was that even map design encourages this type of play. Also you should design maps for game modes and not the other way around.

And what you describe really work on a bunker and it is fun you can separate and rejoin your team  fast . You see where enemy team is going and can judge the situation go help your team or take that empty point. Not so much on a map like frontline.

 

Can we try MA on uptown? :)


Edited by dorobo, 27 May 2015 - 03:24 AM.

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#23
Pastorius

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Can we try MA on uptown


Oooooooooh Silo 1 in the Uptown room, Silo 2 in the Library and Silo 3 in the Downtown room...

Anyone for a game? Could be the new Bunker Siege!

Edited by (KDR) Pastorius, 27 May 2015 - 04:14 AM.

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KOBALT DEFENCE REGIMENT

...and let slip the dogs of war...

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#24
dorobo

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Oooooooooh Silo 1 in the Uptown room, Silo 2 in the Library and Silo 3 in the Downtown room...

Anyone for a game? Could be the new Bunker Siege!

 

Ye.. And in uptown we would get a chokepoint standoff wich is kind of weird  in TDM scenario and in MA there would be an incentive to go back flanking and taking a silo on the way right? And enemy team would be forced to make it's move too.

Need to try it out to know for sure if it works  :pirate:


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#25
comic_sans

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Oooooooooh Silo 1 in the Uptown room, Silo 2 in the Library and Silo 3 in the Downtown room...

Anyone for a game? Could be the new Bunker Siege!

 

Yes please.  Need more uptown love.

 

Hell, I'd play uptown siege.


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#26
Miscellaneous

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Yes please.  Need more uptown love.

 

Hell, I'd play uptown siege.

 

Where would the aa be tho


KOBALT DEFENCE REGIMENT

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#27
comic_sans

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Where would the aa be tho

 

Who cares


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#28
Miscellaneous

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Who cares

 

good point


KOBALT DEFENCE REGIMENT

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#29
Kopra

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On the gas cloud, 'cuz you know... anti-air
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#30
Miscellaneous

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On the gas cloud, 'cuz you know... anti-air

 

I see what you did there


KOBALT DEFENCE REGIMENT

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