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Weird accusation flying around last night

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#1
harmless_kittens

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There was a player last night on the enemy team, and they were doing very well, when someone on our team accused them of "cheating" because of their HIGH LAG?  This person, apparently from South America, had a ping of 350 or so.  The person on our team said this was not fair to the rest of us because it equates to him having like 3X the amount of health as the rest of us (and he consistently used heavies too), maybe because of hit-scan or something?  So he kept asking that person to leave because it wasn't fair to the rest of us.

 

Anyway, is there any truth to this?  I always thought lag was a bad thing.  This was the first I had heard of it possibly being advantageous.

 

Thanks for clearing this up for me.


Edited by harmless_kittens, 13 April 2016 - 05:41 AM.


#2
Call_Me_Ishmael

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Some (a small number under five) players exploit the effect.  There are one or two who revel in teleporting (caused by wi-fi or cellphone tether).  I usually see people exploiting teleports using air-zerkers wtih vulcan or one of the heatcannon mechs, not heavies.

 

Heat cannon and things with bloom/explosion radius seem to be less vulnerable to lag, probably because of how a hit is calculated (I think it's checking for intersection of hitbox volume and bloom volume).  Flak and hitscan are worst in laggy situations.  You may notice your TOW hits but your SMC doesn't, for example, in high-lag.  Vulcan, I think is similar to bloom in calculation - if the ray representing the bullet stream impacts the hitbox volume, it scores a it.  Hitscan seems to be if a 'projectile' intersects the hitbox projection (visible surface), and I think that calculation implemention is inherently more subject to misregistration due to dropped packets.  The volume calculation has a chance to rescore when the packet comes in 'late' as the 'damage' is still within the volume of the target.

 

For the record, I was neither playing or complaining last night. 


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#3
coldform

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Hitscan is a simple true/false based on a ray intersection with a volume, while projectile creates another ingame object to be managed by the game (I'm guessing the server manages all projectile rounds?)
, which has its position updated every tick, as well as Collision checks every tick.

Hitscan instantiates across one tick, projectile lives across several ticks, thus is checked for collision many times more, therefore projectiles will register better.

But the "lag armor" thang is a double edged sword: it's harder to hit them, but it's also harder for them to hit you.

Edited by (TDM)coldform, 13 April 2016 - 06:05 AM.

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I like going against the best of any game I play. Helps you in the long run n motivates u to do more. Always room for improvement not failure

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czerofive-Today at 2:22 AM > got banned from playing lazertag - I used a knife to conserve ammo

FIRST OFF WHAT THE FUZZ IS A "SHILL"


#4
Amidatelion

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High ping is an irritation. it is not cheating. People can get frustrated by it, but I don't think it's fair to ask someone to leave, even if they probably should. It may have been the only game on offer for him.

 

I dropped out of a tournament because my high ping was not fair to me or my teammates or my opponents, but that's my belief. You cannot expect the same courtesy from the vast majority of the rest of the population, especially if they just want to play the game.


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#5
WmMoneyFrmMissouri

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A simple solution to this is ¡ THE RAIDEROSITY ! The game divides fear and intimidation and multiples it by cube according to your special. Some have incorrectly factored this as super speed when in actuality it's good looks. Double checking your work and doing the long hand math on this, the answer is unsurprisingly: 0 as in your opponents have zero chance of getting the better of you long term with a remainder of: muahahaha. The math perfectly works out for me every time.
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#6
coldform

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A simple solution to this is ¡ THE RAIDEROSITY ! The game divides fear and intimidation and multiples it by cube according to your special. Some have incorrectly factored this as super speed when in actuality it's good looks. Double checking your work and doing the long hand math on this, the answer is unsurprisingly: 0 as in your opponents have zero chance of getting the better of you long term with a remainder of: muahahaha. The math perfectly works out for me every time.


Lol wut

I like going against the best of any game I play. Helps you in the long run n motivates u to do more. Always room for improvement not failure

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czerofive-Today at 2:22 AM > got banned from playing lazertag - I used a knife to conserve ammo

FIRST OFF WHAT THE FUZZ IS A "SHILL"


#7
LaurenEmily

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Can someone explain how does high ping give you any kind of advantages, since only your view of what's going on should be delayed, right ? Someone with low ping would see where you really are and be able to react to everything you do faster i'd imagine..


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#8
coldform

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Can someone explain how does high ping give you any kind of advantages, since only your view of what's going on should be delayed, right ? Someone with low ping would see where you really are and be able to react to everything you do faster i'd imagine..


It's not just your view that is delayed, but so is everyone else's view of you.

I like going against the best of any game I play. Helps you in the long run n motivates u to do more. Always room for improvement not failure

z6aJAX7.png?1

 

czerofive-Today at 2:22 AM > got banned from playing lazertag - I used a knife to conserve ammo

FIRST OFF WHAT THE FUZZ IS A "SHILL"


#9
ticklemyiguana

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Can someone explain how does high ping give you any kind of advantages, since only your view of what's going on should be delayed, right ? Someone with low ping would see where you really are and be able to react to everything you do faster i'd imagine..

It's less a matter of high ping than high ping correlating with packet loss and other connection errors. I generally have very low ping in my region, yet I still occasionally experience some very severe teleporting and other nuisances. Though teleporting makes it harder for me to get kills, it also makes it very difficult for an enemy to kill me. If someone were to manufacture a controlled method of hastily replicating the teleport conditions, they could exploit this.

To the best of my knowledge, ping itself is only correlated with connection errors - not the cause of them. And for what it's worth, someone with low ping could likely exploit connection errors more effectively than someone with high ping.

Basically, to answer your request, it doesn't.

It's not just your view that is delayed, but so is everyone else's view of you.

But how? Doesn't everyone else see what the server sees at their own respective ping?

Edited by ticklemyiguana, 13 April 2016 - 07:05 AM.

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#10
LaurenEmily

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But how? Doesn't everyone else see what the server sees at their own respective ping?

 

Exactly what i meant to ask too.


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#11
OdinTheWise

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this phenomenon is also known as lag armor. and as annoying as it is, it is no reason to ask some one to leave a game.


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#12
DallasCreeper

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too l8


Edited by (TDM) DallasCreeper, 13 April 2016 - 07:31 AM.

 

Spoiler

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#13
talon70

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It seems to me, more so lately, one or two high ping players in a server sucks the whole server down for everyone else. 5v5 with low pings and the game can run  ok. 6v6 seems to start pushing it. Full servers with 12 people and a few or more high ping players seem to consistently have quality issues now imo.

 

You have to pay attention to the ping of players and adjust your aim. In general I find you lead farther out front on high ping players. I think all online multiplayer first  person shooters have this issue and always have.


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#14
coldform

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But how? Doesn't everyone else see what the server sees at their own respective ping?

There is still a delay from his machine to the server, therefore you see what he sees delayed by his ping, as well as the delay from you to the server.

Example:
Player a shoots.
It takes 100 ms for that shot to reach the server.

The server now sends that data to all the connected clients.

Now, that shot travels to your client, which takes another 30 ms to get to you.

Basically, the delay - at the shortest level, which is on the server - is (your ping + opponent's ping) / 2.

Edited by (TDM)coldform, 13 April 2016 - 07:50 AM.

I like going against the best of any game I play. Helps you in the long run n motivates u to do more. Always room for improvement not failure

z6aJAX7.png?1

 

czerofive-Today at 2:22 AM > got banned from playing lazertag - I used a knife to conserve ammo

FIRST OFF WHAT THE FUZZ IS A "SHILL"


#15
StubbornPuppet

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There are two parts to a "high ping".  Their upload speed AND download speed.  Where I have seen actual cases of abuse, a player has managed to manipulate a really slow upload speed and dropped upload packets, but reasonable download speed and packet delivery - so they GET information from the server about other players at a reasonable rate, but the game gets very infrequent information back from them.

 

The result is that they see the position and fire of other players being pretty close to what it's supposed to be, but the rest of the players see the player in question teleporting, unsure of when or where they are firing.

 

And since this game, as most, have built in "lag compensation"... the player registering a slow ping will often be given a certain 'benefit of the doubt.'


To be serious for a moment this is just a joke

 


#16
lo_spaghetto

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I don't know too much about lag, but some time ago, there was a Japanese player (had a Japanese callsign) roaming around NA with ~200 ping and absurd accuracy with hitscan.  I am talking about SA Hawkins hitting A mechs across the fuzzy bunny. AR was very accurate too. 


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#17
Kopra

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And since this game, as most, have built in "lag compensation"... the player registering a slow ping will often be given a certain 'benefit of the doubt.'

 

Hawken is not lag compensated. Shots need to be lead.


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#18
angryhampster

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A simple solution to this is ¡ THE RAIDEROSITY ! The game divides fear and intimidation and multiples it by cube according to your special. Some have incorrectly factored this as super speed when in actuality it's good looks. Double checking your work and doing the long hand math on this, the answer is unsurprisingly: 0 as in your opponents have zero chance of getting the better of you long term with a remainder of: muahahaha. The math perfectly works out for me every time.

 

 

<inserts a constructive comment in hopes that this thread doesn't become completely derailed.>



#19
WmMoneyFrmMissouri

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<inserts a constructive comment in hopes that this thread doesn't become completely derailed.>


I'd put my post in the most constructive comment category without question. You just got a first class lesson in common core math. It's what they're teaching all the kids now. A drip or two or mdma or a little squirt of some window pane and all will become clearer to you. You will thus be known a PlacidHamptser.

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#20
angryhampster

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fine, you win...

 

you win.

 

T__T



#21
WmMoneyFrmMissouri

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^thank you Hampster ;) the RAIDEROSITY prevails.

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#22
DallasCreeper

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^thank you Hampster ;) the EOC prevails.

FTFY


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#23
CraftyDus

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I caught a guy rating in the tpg season 28 final. 


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#24
hoghead

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I'd put my post in the most constructive comment category without question. You just got a first class lesson in common core math. It's what they're teaching all the kids now. A drip or two or mdma or a little squirt of some window pane and all will become clearer to you. You will thus be known a PlacidHamptser.

Are we talking about the same pane?   Or is this totally out of context?tumblr_m5h8nettyk1rx7rz4o1_400.png :turned:



#25
coldform

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Ping pang pong

I like going against the best of any game I play. Helps you in the long run n motivates u to do more. Always room for improvement not failure

z6aJAX7.png?1

 

czerofive-Today at 2:22 AM > got banned from playing lazertag - I used a knife to conserve ammo

FIRST OFF WHAT THE FUZZ IS A "SHILL"


#26
CraftyDus

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Having a geographical situation making poor latency connects to the servers isn't cheating, or TPG would have banned merl and elite long ago.

Manipulating the netcode for an unfair advantage falls under rules against rating, and is considered cheating.

But there isn't anyone in Hawken with the awareness, competence, or ability to adjust interp, update, command, or client rates.

Our servers are equally terrible for everyone, but some are much further away than others. It's not reasonable to consider that cheating.

Captain Laggy Pants is just doing his best to get a game in.


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#27
Nov8tr

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I will have to say lately I've seen some coming in from SA with not just 350 ping, but 400, ever over 500 a dozen or so times in the last week. I also had a entire team pounding one in a C mech in a corner and he did not die. But he sure had no problem killing people. Shrug..........I'd have to say that is not fair to the entire team for sure. I understand he wants to game but wow dude when it kills the game for everyone else. Especially if it has been explained to them several times and everytime they (pretend) its the first time anyone has told them. That would give the impression they knew, didn't care if it ruined the game for others. So playing the devils advocate here. At minimum it would not be nice to keep playing with a ping over 500 now would it? I sure wouldn't do it. Hell I've left a game and explained why with pings over 200. Of course thats my opinion and yours may vary. But yeah I'd have to agree with Crafty on ours servers hitscan/hitreg sucking canal water. LOL At least more than any of us like.

 

** And back in the day I've seen many a person using modems alter them in Quake matches and UT matches to do the up/down thing. So It'd be reasonable to say there are still plenty of them running around with the knowledge to alter a DSL modems. (internally not that different) Maybe??**


"Nov8tr" is pronounced "INNOVATOR"

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#28
StubbornPuppet

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A brief internet search can teach a person how to tamper with their modem provisioning.  And not just on DSL either...

 

But, the potential consequences to a person on a reputable ISP are quite frightening.  So, at least that keeps most people who get their service through a reputable ISP from thinking about it.


Edited by StubbornPuppet, 14 April 2016 - 05:21 PM.

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To be serious for a moment this is just a joke

 


#29
Nov8tr

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True Puppet which is why a lot of "those people" use small ISP's or the more greedy disreputable ones that are so easily available in foreign countries. If they are caught in the US it is a federal offense unders communication laws. Same with some other countries but not all. I may be wrong but I believe there were some online gaming contest where this went on some time back. It involved prizes and money. Sad what people will do. Damn, just play the game. Don't hack, don't use glitches, don't take higher level groups and stomp noobs, don't modify anything.......just play!


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"Nov8tr" is pronounced "INNOVATOR"

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#30
DemitronPrime

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As Someone that PLAYS with a 200 ping,

 

I find that this "lag armor" crap is rather BS to be honest....

As much as people say im harder to hit and all that etc, hitting other people basically Neutralizes any possible advantage given.

 

Personally I think having a higher ping is NO help at all but then that is of cause just my opinion


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#31
StubbornPuppet

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As Someone that PLAYS with a 200 ping,

 

I find that this "lag armor" crap is rather BS to be honest....

As much as people say im harder to hit and all that etc, hitting other people basically Neutralizes any possible advantage given.

 

Personally I think having a higher ping is NO help at all but then that is of cause just my opinion

 

You are absolutely right.  Everyone sees advantage and disadvantage from their own narrow perspective.  What you see is that your hits often fail to register.  All anyone else sees is how hard you are to hit - never thinking about how many of your shots didn't land where you put them - they just think you are not very good, but still 'unfair' because of the teleporting and whatnot.  But, if you've always played with a 200+ ping, then your point of reference for how much damage you take is going to be based on your consistent experience.

 

In the end, I think all players would prefer to have a nice low ping to all games.


To be serious for a moment this is just a joke

 


#32
WmMoneyFrmMissouri

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You are absolutely right. Everyone sees advantage and disadvantage from their own narrow perspective. What you see is that your hits often fail to register. All anyone else sees is how hard you are to hit - never thinking about how many of your shots didn't land where you put them - they just think you are not very good, but still 'unfair' because of the teleporting and whatnot. But, if you've always played with a 200+ ping, then your point of reference for how much damage you take is going to be based on your consistent experience.

In the end, I think all players would prefer to have a nice low ping to all games.


I will attest the Demi is indeed NOT hard to hit. The guy is like an alpha strike magnet... ;) muahahaha.

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#33
Jaquio

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I grew up gaming in the days of dialup and where people with high speed connections were apt to be banned for being LPBs, those low ping bastards.

 

Lag armor doesn't bother me one way or the other. You compensate.






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