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Matchaker Updates v3

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#41
wischatesjesus

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Right now is the perfect time to create an entirely new matchmaker from scratch, and test it.

 

I'm not sure the MM is bad enough to warrant a rewrite.

 

Garbage in, garbage out. Even a perfect algorithm is limited by the input. If you've got a single super-high mmr player in queue with a bunch of normals you either put him in the highest average game and hope for the best or make him wait and hope he is patient enough sit around in the hope that a challenger appears instead of giving up and loading a smurf.

 

We've seen how both of those end. I'm of the opinion that, if you must deal with a high MMR player, that it is best to keep them on their main account so that, at the very least, the MMR and team balancing systems won't be borked as much by smurf mmr.


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#42
hestoned

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What I find amusing is why have you felt the need to only criticize me in this situation?  Why is it acceptable for one individual to repeatedly use insults such as "you need to practice reading comprehension" and "think before you speak" when responding to recent posts (in more than just this thread too) of another specific individual, and yet when you read it and decide to respond to it you completely ignore the behavior of the other party and only identify the issues with the second?  Were they being just as antisocial and unfriendly in their post or not?  Did the offending phrases have any meaningful purpose in their post other than to personally attack and insult the other user and elicit an angry response i.e. trolling?

 

When he can manage to respond without including phrases that are strategically placed to insult someones intelligence, he will get responses that are are free from the return fire.

 

Its simple, treat others as you wish to be treated.

 

now your just stupid and a liar. your first response to me was sarcastically dismissing my opinion on adding coop to any game mode match making because my skill level makes up less than 2% of the population. you have been nothing but demeaning and rude since then. if anyone is responding in kind to your filth its me. not the other way around. you are a garbage person spewing garbage. look i know it upsets you that you are probably the worst player to ever touch the game. have you though about just killing your self? no one here would miss you.


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#43
wischatesjesus

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nope


Edited by wischatesjesus, 08 January 2017 - 08:27 PM.

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#44
SS396

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now your just stupid and a liar. your first response to me was sarcastically dismissing my opinion on adding coop to any game mode match making because my skill level makes up less than 2% of the population. you have been nothing but demeaning and rude since then. if anyone is responding in kind to your filth its me. not the other way around. you are a garbage person spewing garbage. look i know it upsets you that you are probably the worst player to ever touch the game. have you though about just killing your self? no one here would miss you.

  
I seem to remember things happening completely differently than you for some reason, luckily its all recorded here on the forums.  Lets begin.  FIGHT!
 

what terms and conditions? no one signed an agreement between themselves and reloaded about certain skins being one time only and forever staying that way. and the honor and respect tripe is nothing but mu feewings. also it was obvious i wasnt singling you out about hurt feelings. reading comprehension helps.
 
also who does it help? is that a trick question? people who didnt have skins before can now buy them so that benefits them. this whole post is just people will have hurt feelings

 
Take a look at that timestamp there buddy.  Who started fuzzy bunnyng throwing insults at who now?

 

Your whole BS argument that I started it with my sarcastic comment that wasn't even aimed at you is a lie and not the way it happened my friend.  My sarcastic comment was on the 5th, your rudeness, or as you say "kindness" was all the way back on the 1st.  Did my sarcastic remark have any momentum from your insults, you bet your ass it did.

 

 As I have clearly pointed out, you have been rude and demeaning in multiple threads, so don't sit there and act like you are a fuzzy bunnyng saint.

 

Can you honestly sit there with a straight face and tell me and everyone else you were being fuzzy bunnyng KIND?

 

Sorry you had to get rekt son.


[DELETED]

 

fuzzy bunny you CZeroFive 


#45
DemitronPrime

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(Some of you spew so much crap at each other I just skip over all of your posts. There might even be something useful in one but I will never know. )

 

Nuff Said!


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#46
6ixxer

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this thread
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#47
DallasCreeper

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this thread

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There is just too many hurt feewings and high horses to continue any productive conversations.


 

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#48
Browno

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Played a few games today with 1000mmr range and it were really close games. 2 games ended with 1 point lead, another was a tie and the last were 4 points only. So i would say that it is a difference to the mm.

KOBALT DEFENCE REGIMENT

...and let slip the dogs of war...

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#49
6ixxer

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Played a few games today with 1000mmr range and it were really close games. 2 games ended with 1 point lead, another was a tie and the last were 4 points only. So i would say that it is a difference to the mm.

I'd like to be put into games like that, but they will be out of region, so my performance will be assumed based on my MMR only, rather than my MMR with high ping considered (usually 250-300. sometimes up to 400)



#50
capnjosh

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The cat says it all.

 

We'll move along to one more quick adjustment to the matchmaker parameters:

 

"segregationLow" has been set to 1290.  This is based an obvious durable depression in the number of players who stop playing at various MMRs.  In short, 1290 seems to be a natural threshold between new players and players who stick around.

 

 

 

This single change is expected to reduce the MMR spread of matches for brand new players, something I think we all prefer.  The skill spread for the next-higher threshold - players between 1300 and 1450 has been a little rough on them, but with the addition of more players to that pool, I suspect the MMR spreads will reduce slightly.  Players between 1450 and 1750 have actually been getting pretty good matches, and players above 1750 have generally been matches a little below their skill level.

 

Here's some sample data showing the actual distribution of MMR over the past number of days:

 

w02TaEC.jpg

ePmDgjj.jpg

 

And here are the current matchmaker MMR spreads

(low-Skill has been "below 1340", but that's just been adjusted down, so I'll provide some updated data in the next few days

"lowMidSkill" has been 1340-1450

"midSkill" has been 1450-1750

"highSkill" has been 1750+:

JhkAYgG.jpg?1


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#51
Charcoal

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Point of curiosity:

 

Do these spreads differ much when broken up by game mode?



#52
Nov8tr

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Point of curiosity:

 

Do these spreads differ much when broken up by game mode?

 

Hmm good question. Is there?


"Nov8tr" is pronounced "INNOVATOR"

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#53
capnjosh

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The spreads are pretty close to the same, though for the less-played game modes they vary a little more wildly, due to the smaller sample size.  The matchmaker doesn't really care so much about the game mode.  It's just going for the best possible match given the constraints and request.  We could potentially see some further targeted MMR spread reduction by having different skill threshold per game mode, but my sense is that it'd take a lot more time to implement than it would be worth.


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#54
6ixxer

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any idea why after 110sec it made a new local server for me rather than pushing me into another region?

there were plenty of servers in my range (midskill)



#55
hestoned

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I seem to remember things happening completely differently than you for some reason, luckily its all recorded here on the forums.  Lets begin.  FIGHT!
 

 
Take a look at that timestamp there buddy.  Who started fuzzy bunnyng throwing insults at who now?

 

Your whole BS argument that I started it with my sarcastic comment that wasn't even aimed at you is a lie and not the way it happened my friend.  My sarcastic comment was on the 5th, your rudeness, or as you say "kindness" was all the way back on the 1st.  Did my sarcastic remark have any momentum from your insults, you bet your ass it did.

 

 As I have clearly pointed out, you have been rude and demeaning in multiple threads, so don't sit there and act like you are a fuzzy bunnyng saint.

 

Can you honestly sit there with a straight face and tell me and everyone else you were being fuzzy bunnyng KIND?

 

Sorry you had to get rekt son.

 

there you go lying again. if your sarcastic comment wasnt aimed at me then who? why bring up 2% of the population being affected by the mm changes if you werent talking about me? surely you can answer this very simple question but we both know you wont and will just ignore this part.

 

i never said i was being kind in the first place you ignoramus. is it possible for you to argue someones point without adding dramatic fluff?



#56
SS396

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there you go lying again. if your sarcastic comment wasnt aimed at me then who? why bring up 2% of the population being affected by the mm changes if you werent talking about me? surely you can answer this very simple question but we both know you wont and will just ignore this part.

 

Ok, I'll ignore it, its no different than you ignoring me pointing out your own rude behavior towards me on the 1st.  I really don't give a fuzzy bunny about it anymore.  All you seem to want to do is turn the thread into a big $hitstain again because you are butthurt.  Go ahead, whats stopping you from doing it again?  Apparently Josh and CZeroFive have seen your other post and aren't going to do anything about it, so have at it if you think it will make you feel better.

 

i never said i was being kind in the first place you ignoramus.

 

You sure?
 

if anyone is responding in kind to your filth its me.


You clearly wrote kind, and that I started this whole thing with my sarcastic remark.  Did you not?  Why are you backpedaling now?

 

 is it possible for you to argue someones point without adding dramatic fluff?


It is possible for you to respond without adding 3rd grade school yard bull$hit?

 

Hypocrite.


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fuzzy bunny you CZeroFive 


#57
Miscellaneous

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You sure?

 

You clearly wrote kind, and that I started this whole thing with my sarcastic remark.  Did you not?  Why are you backpedaling now?

 

It is possible for you to respond without adding 3rd grade school yard bull$hit?

 

Hypocrite.

 

Look, this thread's been derailed enough as is, but really? Really? You don't know the meaning of "responding in kind" but he's the third grader?

 

Here's the first definition from google:

 

7k5pd5j.png

 

Now, can we all calm down a little and talk about the matchmaker instead of calling each other hypocrites and third graders? 

 

Back on topic, the few matches I've played since the changes seem to be a lot more well balanced and generally more enjoyable. Had a few stomps, but nothing's perfect 100% of the time. Good work, Josh and team.

 

yl1EQ_f-maxage-0_s-200x150.gif?c=popkey-


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KOBALT DEFENCE REGIMENT

...and let slip the dogs of war...

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#58
ARCH3TYP3

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Back on topic, the few matches I've played since the changes seem to be a lot more well balanced and generally more enjoyable. Had a few stomps, but nothing's perfect 100% of the time. Good work, Josh and team.

yl1EQ_f-maxage-0_s-200x150.gif?c=popkey-


Agreed. Same experience here so far.
Thanks for the update.
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"Finally, the white knight I deserve. [ARCHETYPE]" -  Amidatelion


#59
DerMax

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Remember my post about the Hawken forums' "warm, fireplacey atmosphere"? Yeah, no such thing.


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#60
SS396

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Look, this thread's been derailed enough as is, but really? Really? You don't know the meaning of "responding in kind" but he's the third grader?

 

Now, can we all calm down a little and talk about the matchmaker instead of calling each other hypocrites and third graders? 

 

Yup, had no clue, its not a phrase I am familiar with or ever have used in my entire life.  I thought it meant responded peacefully, you know the other definition of the word kind.  Thanks for explaining it, in a slightly less insulting way.  I guess I was absent that day they were teaching it.

 

I like how you forgot ignoramus, and all the other insults being thrown around, and only addressed mine.  I liked the garbage person spewing garbage one the most.  I picture an actual garbage person with garbage flying everywhere while they are trying to load it on the truck.

 

Same goes with derailing, apparently I am the only one guilty of it here too.


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fuzzy bunny you CZeroFive 


#61
Miscellaneous

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Yup, had no clue, its not a phrase I am familiar with or ever have used in my entire life.  I thought it meant responded peacefully, you know the other definition of the word kind.  Thanks for explaining it, in a slightly less insulting way.  I guess I was absent that day they were teaching it.

 

It wasn't so much the fact that you didn't know what it meant - more how ironic it was that you were insulting someone's intelligence whilst also making such a mistake - "Pot calling the kettle black".

 

I like how you forgot ignoramus, and all the other insults being thrown around, and only addressed mine.  I liked the garbage person spewing garbage one the most.  I picture an actual garbage person with garbage flying everywhere while they are trying to load it on the truck.

 

Same goes with derailing, apparently I am the only one guilty of it here too.

 

I used the two that I remembered first. Using your insults as an example had nothing to do with targeting only you - that's why I said "can we all calm down a little" rather than specifying. 

 

Can we - as a community - get back on topic now?


Edited by Miscellaneous, 10 January 2017 - 12:57 PM.

KOBALT DEFENCE REGIMENT

...and let slip the dogs of war...

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#62
SS396

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It wasn't so much the fact that you didn't know what it meant - more how ironic it was that you were insulting someone's intelligence whilst also making such a mistake - "Pot calling the kettle black".

I don't understand.  How was I insulting someone elses intelligence while making the same mistake?

 

I used the two that I remembered first. Using your insults as an example had nothing to do with targeting only you - that's why I said "can we all calm down a little" rather than specifying.

Well, it sure looks one sided from my point of view.  If someone is going to call an elephant an elephant, at least be fair and mention all of the elephants in the room.

 

Can we - as a community - get back on topic now?

Well, its worth a shot, but I'm not holding my breath that anyone else isn't going to barge in bang on their chest and fling another steaming pile of $hit when they read about the latest episode of the forum soap opera.


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fuzzy bunny you CZeroFive 


#63
talon70

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I am not sure I agree with lowering the low segregation point from 1340-1290 even if the charts seem to indicate it. First off the numbers are skewed because a large amount of new players are smurf accounts that herd and then recreate another over and over at low levels. I would even think raising it would get more folks up to speed before being thrown to the wolves in the mid level.

 

But much more importantly I feel the real difference between 1200 and 1400 players is more about understanding and learning this game, not general fps skill and ability. You will keep more new players and solve a LOT more problems by getting some better training required for pilots, not moving that threshold  up or down 50 mmr points.


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#64
Nov8tr

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Of course like anything it will need refinement as the population changes. Whether it be up or down, but in a general way the MM is working better. The matching are getting closer for the most part. Now IF we can just get hitreg to work and huge lag problems, that would be a amazing advancement in game enjoyment. Oh and I'd still like the TON of mechs that are still telling me "the test drive is over" after spending real life money on special body parts, camos, boosters, etc. In fact quite a bit of money. Hell I have a Bruiser that I can't use because it wants me to pay for the "ORIGINAL" head  of the mech that it COMES WITH. Yeah wants me to spend real life money to get MC to buy a part that I not only own, it comes with the mech stock. So glad the MM is working better, but would love to use my mechs too. :pinch:


Edited by Nov8tr, 10 January 2017 - 02:52 PM.

"Nov8tr" is pronounced "INNOVATOR"

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#65
JackVandal

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Can say at least through anecdotal evidence the matches seem to be better as far as general spread, though proposal for a tier above 2000 or so,(or wherever the distinction around there should be)  probably should be called mlg or some such nonsense.


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#66
ARCH3TYP3

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Can say at least through anecdotal evidence the matches seem to be better as far as general spread, though proposal for a tier above 2000 or so,(or wherever the distinction around there should be)  ....

 

I hope a seasoned player can chime in on this.

A great player once told me something a lot like this: (to paraphrase from memory)

"There's a big jump from the starting point to about 1700mmr. Then around 1900 mmr, players understand the maps and game basics very well and have a good general knowledge of what needs to be done, even if they can't quite execute it perfectly against a 2000+ player. The next big jump seems to be around 2200 mmr, then 2400-2600. There are relatively few 2700 players, and the next jump seems to occur at mmrs approaching 2800, at which point the competition becomes very  tight- "pro" level.""

I can't comment on the higher levels of play. I just know that from my level of competence, the 1900+ observation rings true.

Again, I hope some of the better players add some insight, particularly as the re-release becomes imminent because I think this deserves some consideration.


"Finally, the white knight I deserve. [ARCHETYPE]" -  Amidatelion


#67
Meraple

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A great player once told me something a lot like this: (to paraphrase from memory)

"There's a big jump from the starting point to about 1700mmr. Then around 1900 mmr, players understand the maps and game basics very well and have a good general knowledge of what needs to be done, even if they can't quite execute it perfectly against a 2000+ player. The next big jump seems to be around 2200 mmr, then 2400-2600. There are relatively few 2700 players, and the next jump seems to occur at mmrs approaching 2800, at which point the competition becomes very  tight- "pro" level.""

Here in EU it's gotten increasingly easier to gain MMR, to the point where even players who don't understand the maps are over 2200 MMR.


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#68
Pumapaw

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It ain't working the spread ranges now are 1350 low 2350 high.

 

Smurf accounts need to be cleaned. Until that happens this is an exercise in futility endeavors.


Edited by Pumapaw, 15 January 2017 - 09:07 AM.


#69
ARCH3TYP3

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Here in EU it's gotten increasingly easier to gain MMR, to the point where even players who don't understand the maps are over 2200 MMR.

 

I see. 

So, having a drastically diminished playerbase is now drastically affecting the accuracy of what MMR was attempting to be somewhat accurate at...

Hopefully with the PC re-release we can gain a few hundred regular and dedicated players; this should improve the situation all around.


"Finally, the white knight I deserve. [ARCHETYPE]" -  Amidatelion


#70
PsychedelicGrass

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These matchmaker changes make it difficult for me to join servers. I can manually join some of them but usually if I que for something it'll just try using me to seed a server.. which doesn't work as there's rarely anyone else online close enough to my mmr to actually join it.


Good news is that the matches I do get into seem more balanced than before. That's good.

Edited by PsychedelicGrass, 15 January 2017 - 01:26 PM.

What's the big fuzzy bunnyng deal? Lots of amazing people have committed suicide, and they turned out alright.

 


#71
dorobo

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giphy.gif

 

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Edited by dorobo, 16 January 2017 - 01:45 AM.


#72
WmMoneyFrmMissouri

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Here in EU it's gotten increasingly easier to gain MMR, to the point where even players who don't understand the maps are over 2200 MMR.


This sounds off. I would think limited players would make it harder to gain mmr.

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#73
Silverfire

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This sounds off. I would think limited players would make it harder to gain mmr.

 

I've been gaining MMR for even the dumbest servers.  It's a little weird.  


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#74
Meraple

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This sounds off. I would think limited players would make it harder to gain mmr.

Whether you gain MMR or not depends on how many players score higher/lower than you.

 

If all of the players who regularly score higher than you quit, you'd frequently be ranked at the top of the scoreboard and gain MMR all day.

Some of the lower scoring players would also be ranked higher on the scoreboard than before, so they'd lose less MMR, and gain more MMR.


Edited by Meraple, 17 January 2017 - 02:55 PM.


#75
TheButtSatisfier

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Smurf accounts need to be cleaned. Until that happens this is an exercise in futility endeavors.

 

Can you believe it? Did the devs even think to analyze this course of action? It seem so simple. All of those MMR updates, those backend changes, they all could have been foregone if they had simply cleaned out the smurf accounts.

 

They should hire you and retroactively pay you all the money they would have saved if they just listened to your sage advice.


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#76
ReversusRex

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Is there any resource with a fully-detailed description of how Hawken's MMR works? As far as I can tell, everyone agrees that MMR is flawed (more so than your average rating system) but there isn't too much elaboration as to why.



#77
Call_Me_Ishmael

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Can you believe it? Did the devs even think to analyze this course of action? It seem so simple. All of those MMR updates, those backend changes, they all could have been foregone if they had simply cleaned out the smurf accounts.

 

They should hire you and retroactively pay you all the money they would have saved if they just listened to your sage advice.

 

Butt, there are days I'm totally in awe of your ability to so... nicely? perfectly? piquantly? communicate what I'm thinking but don't type. 

 

This is pretty much one of those days.


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#78
Dew

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Butt, there are days I'm totally in awe of your ability to so... nicely? perfectly? piquantly? communicate what I'm thinking but don't type. 

 

This is pretty much one of those days.

 

It's a nice post but it's most likely wasted on the intended audience.


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#79
nepacaka

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sorry devs, but nothing changes.

it was a "standart" match in hawken (it is sad, because when i say "standart" - it is mean this happen 90% time in solo-random. it is very sad.)
starting like 5vs5 than 6vs6 after first ship. making 3000/100 - easy win, yeah...
than one of our player leave. as a result, i should fight with 2 guys which focused me (obviously i can't do this on fuzzy bunnyng SS), team slowly got EU, we can't launch ship first, etc. -> predictable end.
by the stupid rules (game not put your in match near to end) we can't got last man in team and playing like this 15 minutes (or more) till lose.

doesn't matter how you change balancer, it will not working when people leave from fight (or just if playing 5vs6, 3vs4 etc.)

you (devs) should reward player who play several fights in a row.

game need some sort of punishments for leavers/quitters. no experience and no money for fight sounds not bad for me. as a variant -10%, -20% coefficient for exp/HC for 30 min, maybe.
it is competitive game or not? do something, which interest player in match. keep them put more efforts to win. give them higher reward for win. do something.

d4p42iR.png


about whole matchmaking changes. i notice, that matches with 1800 average mmr now is a "3 star" match. (early it was 1 or 0 star, if i remember correct, for 2.2+ mmr)
in general, i play several matches, nothing changes inside match. but, you can more easily find a game and you no need waiting 1:30 sec.
so:
- find match faster. can find a game without "quick game" button.
- nothing changes in balance in general.

i think it is good changes, but not affected on real game problems, which i see in every fuzzy bunny match. (dis is my feedback about matchmaking V3, :3)


Edited by nepacaka, 20 January 2017 - 11:42 AM.

Kompotka 3000. 2D ha?ken game: https://community.pl...ve/?hl=kompotka

Interceptor, B-Class mech concept: https://community.pl...itdefence-mech/

Challenger, C-Class mech concept: https://community.pl...ccepted-thread/

G2-Brawler, C-class mech concept: https://community.pl...pacaka-is-here/

Kinetik, B-class mech concept: https://community.pl...ass-shotgunner/

Melter, A-class mech concept: https://community.pl...-class-support/


#80
LorentzBlank

LorentzBlank

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       The best way to balance a match is not player related, but team related. So, if you want it to be balance first thing you should do is give a 10 min "lock" on players that ragequit. Second, create an anti hacking sistem, for 2 reasons, first, to avoid hackers, of course, and second, to avoid hackusations by noobs on good players. And last, but not least, lock tech mech in uneaven matches for the team that have more folks. I know the last one seems weird, but a player more on one side may not be a big deal, but a player more that is a tech can really mess up the balance of the matches.
      I think new players will get better faster playing against the old ones, and will not be frustrated thinking they are dealing with hackers, with a proper anti hacking sistem. They also will feel chalenged and will try to improve themselfs. And, lets us remember, mmr count for nothing in a game that almost everyone has an alt or a smurf, so the mmr as a base for balancing is really, really not trust worthy. I think the balance is more related with team work, and as such can only be improved by things that indirect affect it, like hackers, ragequiters and uneaven matches.


Edited by LorentzBlank, 27 January 2017 - 06:27 PM.

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