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Advice sought on Raider, Rocketeer, and Vanguard

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#1
harmless_kittens

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What we (my son and I) have right now:  Assault (obviously), Sharpshooter, Scout (too hard for me), Bruiser (which I'm terrible with), Predator (not as fun as it sounded), Brawler, Technician, and Vanguard (my personal favorite).  My son's favorites are Technician and Sharpshooter.

 

We've been trying to buy robots that have different weapons that we already, so that we can try them all out.  The Raider has 2 weapons that I've used only in test drives.

 

1) For the Raider secondary weapon, what is the main difference between the two different "modes"?  The game doesn't explain the difference very well. in my opinion.

 

2) For my Vanguard, should I purchase the Vulcan when I reach that level.  I used it on the Bruiser, and it seems to do good damage.  I spend almost ALL my time on the Vanguard in turret mode.  (Yes, I'm a coward.)

 

3) The Rocketeer seems like it my fit my (lazy) style pretty well, but I've seen it get a lot of hate here on the forums.  Is it not as effective as it sounds like it would be (in turret mode)?

 

Thanks for the advice.

 

 



#2
Amidatelion

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1) Raider has two modes: KLA and MIRV. KLA fires an arcing rocket that explodes on contact in a wide area and MIRV is a projectile (i.e. not hitscan) shotgun. KLA is much easier to hit as it follows an easily traceable and understood path. The MIRV is very much lead- and ping dependent.

2) No. Also, get out of turret mode. While Vanguard's turret mode is "the best" of the turret modes it still limits your maneuverability, makes your rear an enormous target and magically sucks EMPs right out of opponents inventories and into your face.

3) Rocketard is best 'tard.


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#3
eth0

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1) The Raider's secondary, the Corsair, has a KLA (vertical) and MIRV (horizontal) firing modes. The KLA fires an arcing grenade and splashes where it hits. Unlike the TOW, a KLA cannot be remotely detonated. The MIRV is a shotgun that fires pellets a short distance but has slightly more damage than the KLA.

In most cases, use the KLA. The MIRV is very situational and will be tricky as you learn when to use it. Try it as an opener in a fight when you know you can land it or against spacebar heroes you want back on the ground.

 

2) If you find yourself overheating with the miniflak, get the vulcan. If you're happy with the miniflak then the vulcan will mostly be the same thing with a spin up time.

 

3) Rocketeer has long been in need of a touch-up. A knowledgeable pilot can dodge hellfires on command and a better one will dodge them reflexively. Turret mode for the rocky only puts a target on your back since you are also much slower and cannot dodge.

To get the most out of your hellfires you should learn how to "curve" them. Point up or away from your target after locking on but before firing instead of facing the target when firing. Hellfires will launch a short distance before tracking, so firing perpendicular to the target gives you better grouping of the missiles and more control of their flight trajectory. If this explanation isn't clear (I don't have a video on hand), somebody will chime in or hop by the teamspeak and ask about hellfire curves.

EDIT: Check out Amid's rocky guide. Ignore the nonsense and you'll find lots of good tips.

 

 

This is just the stuff from the top of my head, I hope I was able to shed some light.


Edited by eth0, 01 February 2016 - 11:43 AM.

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#4
Miscellaneous

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Predator (not as fun as it sounded)

 

*TRIGGERED*

 

On a serious note, pretty much what Amid said. Although, with the Rocketeer, it may seem good at the moment to you, but as you start to climb the ranks it becomes worse and worse as people learn to dodge hellfires. The seeker stays incredibly powerful on some maps though, like Bunker and Last Eco. 


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#5
SS396

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1.  The difference is distance vs damage.  In one mode you can reach out further but have less damage (compared to the other mode), in the other you get more damage but lose considerable range because the pellets self destruct once they get to max range.  If the enemy mech is literally 1 meter out of range you'll do no damage.

 

2.  Get out of turret mode, you don't need it.  Just use movement and dodging instead, you are seriously handicapping yourself by using it.  Vulcan is good for up close fights but if you don't pay attention to the heat generated you can find yourself overheated often.  Another issue is the spin up time, you have to anticipate your engagement.  SMC is better for longer ranged flights due to better accuracy/less spread at longer range than the vulcan.

 

One of the major keys to mechs with grenades is bouncing nades off walls to reach your intended target around a corner.  Its an acquired skill that takes some practice and map familiarity.

 

 

3.  Again, get out of turret mode, and don't use Rocketeer unless you are on bunker or last eco, maps with wide open spaces.  The problem with Rocketeer is that you are a in a support role so you won't be leading the scoreboards with points and most kills, but you will often have most assists.


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#6
peacecraftSLD

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2) For my Vanguard, should I purchase the Vulcan when I reach that level.  I used it on the Bruiser, and it seems to do good damage.  I spend almost ALL my time on the Vanguard in turret mode.  (Yes, I'm a coward.)

 

Thanks for the advice.

 

Vulcan is good anytime, anywhere, any map, on anybody.

 

Vulcan is life!



#7
harmless_kittens

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OK, so I'm thinking No on the Rocketeer.  For the Raider, I'm a little surprised how long the cooldown is on the Special.  In your opinion, is the Raider even worth purchasing?  What does he "bring to the table" that I don't already have?



#8
Amidatelion

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OK, so I'm thinking No on the Rocketeer.  For the Raider, I'm a little surprised how long the cooldown is on the Special.  In your opinion, is the Raider even worth purchasing?  What does he "bring to the table" that I don't already have?

gofast and insane close-range damage

 

But it is rather difficult to use.


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#9
Hyginos

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A few extra notes on the MIRV/KLA:

 

First, you can switch between the modes when the weapon is reloading. This means that you can, for example, fire off a KLA at long range then switch to the MIRV as you are closing distance without losing any time between shots.

 

Second, the MIRV can push unpowered airborne targets.

 

As mentioned before, the MIRV has a maximum range. This is an illustration of how far it is.

 

What the raider brings to the table is the ability to play more aggressively than any other mech as well as what is by far the most fun ability in the game IMO. A good raider is brutal.


Edited by Hyginos, 01 February 2016 - 12:23 PM.

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#10
ARCH3TYP3

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As for the Raider: you can think of the Raider as a fat Scout, or the Scout as a lightweight Raider.
Both take a lot of practice to become proficient at, but both can be devastating in the right hands.
As for the Vulcan: Because of the spin-up delay, it is harder to use than the AR and SMC. I played with a very experienced, high tier player who admits it is a difficult weapon to use, but devastating up close. He spins it up before popping each corner. If no one is there, he unspools it, so as to remain invisible on radar. (It will give away your position once it begins firing).
On Uptown, Wreckage and Origin, it seems to be a good choice.
I choose to go Vulcan when the enemy team is full of heavier mechs who seem to be piloted by less experienced players; their movement is more predictable and slow, which allows me to get up close and hold the Vulcan right on them.
Mini flak does even more damage and is easier to use, but overheats really quickly. It also seems less effective than the Vulcan at anything past 10 yards.
In very cqc the mini flak is brutal for pure damage per second. I suppose technically, with the Vulcan you may be able to squeeze out one more kill under certain circumstances, before overheating.
Grenadier or Vanguard with Vulcan can be a wrecking machine in the right hands and against the right enemy team on the right map.
Contrast that with the Assault and Sub Machine Cannon, which is much more of a Swiss army knife mech; very versatile and capable in a wider range of situations.
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#11
CraftyDus

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Even though I love that he's so disturbed, he's using my name in his signature,

Don't listen to ss396, he hates this game and rarely plays it.

His advice is probably terrible.

 

For the Raider, don't ever take it out of corsair/KLA mode, shotgun mode is for people with bad aim.

Only ever use the EOC primary, this will insure you build character.

 

Turret mode is a rarely cultivated niche, and there have been some great notable turret mode vangaurds in this game, diederall is a tree and others. Vulcan is disdainfully referred to as "farthammer" it's a sophmore-tier abomination on everyting but the berzerker and the g2assault.

Use the mini-flak on the Vangaurd aka ManGaurd.

You will do well.

 

The Rocketeer is a death-trap and will twist your heart into something unholy.

It's really not very effective, without the attraction of being difficult based on the auto-tracking premise.

It gets the least respect in the game.

 

Good Luck, and I enjoyed playing with you this weekend.


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#12
Hyginos

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For the Raider, don't ever take it out of corsair/KLA mode, shotgun mode is for people with bad aim.

 

I resent that remark.

 

To clarify before this gets out of hand: the KLA projectile is a rocket, not a grenade.


Edited by Hyginos, 01 February 2016 - 01:50 PM.

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#13
SS396

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Even though I love that he's so disturbed, he's using my name in his signature,
Don't listen to ss396, he hates this game and rarely plays it.
His advice is probably terrible.


Not disturbed at all, just trying to get you and everyone else to notice, see it worked.   :thumbsup:   Now accept the wager and quit being such a puss.

Second, I don't hate this game, I hate what it has become since Steam and now that Reloaded took over.  Harmless_kittens has already figured it out in a few days of playing and posted it in his other thread.

 

I think its funny that you keep saying I don't play even though your friends ratted me out and reported to you that they saw me.  It just goes to show you how little you know about anyones whereabouts in game.  Keep running your mouth Duncetin, and I'll keep loading up the game once a week, just to prove your sorry ass wrong.   :thumbsup:


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#14
DM30

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SS is dumb

 

the usual

 

Seriously, guys, come on. A new player has come here with a genuine request for help. Your feud has polluted enough threads already without spilling into this one too.

 

On topic:

Like others have mentioned, Raider is a go-fast face-melting killing machine, BUT, counter intuitively it's also one of the mechs that takes the most patience to use effectively. The MIRV shot does serious damage, but if you miss it you'll be the one hurting. Position yourself carefully and deliberately to maximize your chances of hitting, and wait for your enemy to waste their dodge before firing it for full effect. The KLA mode still packs a good punch and has a surprisingly big splash radius making it quite good at hitting fast-moving targets.

 

Rocketeer is in a bit of an odd place. As you climb to higher-tier matches the hellfires' effectiveness drops off significantly because people know better how to dodge them or just use cover to negate them. It can be useful as a suppression weapon to keep people hiding in cover, but in a lot of situations you would probably be more effective in a different, more hard-hitting mech.

 

Vulcan is certainly a viable weapon and it can do some serious damage at close range, so if you have the credits for it there's no harm in getting it. If you want the Vulcan+GL weapon combo a Grenadier does it better because of its ability, though. If you can control your heat the mini-flak is already a very powerful close-range choice for the Vanguard so I would personally recommend sticking with that instead.


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#15
6ixxer

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On raider, I tend to walk around maps with mirv ready. When you round a corner and there is an enemy right there it is a heavy punch to start. in tight maps the mirv may well get used more than KLA.

If it is a mech that will engage you at medium distance then you can rotate to KLA. You can chase opponents while shooting by using blitz ability. Equip Replenisher internal to cut down the cooldown on blitz (but you have to get kills or assists).

I agree that a good raider can be brutal. When you come against one, your only choice is to kill it cos if you run they will blitz your ass.

 

Vanguard has plenty of HP and is fast for a C class. Avoid turret unless you have a tech or someone backing you up (don't expect random players to stay with you). Remember that miniflak effective range is short so stay out of turret and use your speed to get in effective range and you'll have a good change of winning the DPS race against smaller classes. Personally I prefer the brawler with flak or Hawkins.

 

It seems the theme to this post is to understand your weapons effective range. Don't take a short range weapon into a medium-long range fight.



#16
eth0

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To clarify before this gets out of hand: the KLA projectile is a rocket, not a grenade.

 

1) The KLA fires an arcing grenade and splashes where it hits. 

 

rekt


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#17
asipo

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If you enjoy turret mode vanguard

Then i suggest hawkin brawler, stick with team and poking from far distance


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#18
StubbornPuppet

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Hello Kitten,

 

The Rocketeer is one of my favorite and most played mechs.

It gets a lot of hate from both ends:

Some call it over-powered because it annoys them on open maps like Bunker.  

Some call it under-powered because the turret mode is utterly useless and it's splash damage and close range are a huge detriment.

 

In truth, it needs a little TLC.  Especially because the former development team was trying to tweak the Hellfires (lock-ons) - they started by nerfing them way down to where they barely track and fly slowly... and were going to slowly build them back up until they found a sweet spot.  Then, Adhesive collapsed and nothing more was ever done to the Rocketeer.

 

However, I've still figured out how to make it work really well for me.

 

First: Turret Mode = Suicide Mode (except in very rare circumstances)

 

Second: Do not expect to be an assault mech.  Learn it's effective distances and use it as a suppression weapon - keeping the enemy held back from points of interest.  There are plenty of good spots on most of the maps where you can poise your Rocky, making it easy to pop in & out out of cover to lock-on quick, fire and duck behind cover again.

 

Third: Learn the art of the offensive retreat.  Rocky is very good at specific distances (map and obstacle dependent), and keeping that distance is critical to maintaining suppression and staying alive.  If you learn to know when to start backing away from an approaching enemy and time your firing, you'll find that your opponents either die trying to get close enough to finish you or, the smart ones, realize they need to give up on getting you and go elsewhere.

 

As for other tips:

Don't stay in one place for very long.  Once you've annoyed enough people, they're going to be on a witch hunt.  Better to move to a new location, preferably with a good view of your old location - and start the cycle of annoyance over again.

 

A lot of people will tell me I'm wrong, but I like to equip my Rocketeer with an A/C (air dodge).  When the enemy gets uncomfortably close, I find it surprises the heck out of them when I suddenly go airborne and start strafing in the air (while offfensively retreating)... blasting them with unlocked Hellfires raining down from above.  I get more kills that way...


To be serious for a moment this is just a joke

 


#19
CraftyDus

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When I look closely it's a little rocket, generally it looks like a ball of fire

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#20
CraftyDus

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here's an all time great turret mode vanguard

 


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#21
WillyW

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here's an all time great turret mode vanguard

 

Spoiler

 

Jeeeeeze. I thought I'd be up there somewhere too. I'm watching that video now, and his advice is golden. I never knew about gliding off jump pads (maybe it doesn't work anymore, I gotta test it out). He uses shields a lot, which I personally hate because they're EMP traps, and they allow lots of splash from behind when enemy weapons hit the shield. He also doesn't mention the turn cap and what to watch out for. And he stays turreted literally all the time, which is a bit of a waste imo. You can walk right up to an enemy with an orb and go into turret mode at point-blank range and still win the fight at least half the time. 

I also found this video from diederall and it seems to be a lot better advice. Its a good follow-up to the introduction video. I noticed he does something that I do all the time. When he drops his shield and orbs, he looks down at the ground to place it closer as not to be required to move forward onto it. His dragon skin is epic too and I'm jealous.



Also, one thing to heavily stress is that the amount of damage you can absorb in turret mode is absolutely insane. I don't use Advanced Repair Kit or Extractor, so this isn't even as powerful as it could be. Here is a good example. 

8SdCYi0.jpg

Vanguard armor: 635
Damage Sustained: 7768
Deaths: 2

Damage absorbed:
= 7768-635(2)
= 6498

Deaths equivalent:

= 6498 / 635
= 10.23

That means I absorbed over 10 Vanguards worth of damage in turret mode/while healing.



 


Edited by WillyW, 02 February 2016 - 10:28 AM.

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#22
CraftyDus

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it would take you some years to get on deideralls level with a vanguard

he's a legend


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#23
PoopSlinger

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Hes also a legend of in-game chat bitching.  One of the top 20 for whining about items while using orblord.


Edited by PoopSlinger, 02 February 2016 - 11:06 AM.

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Come on Crafty, you have been officially called out on your lies. Your online reputation is at stake here, this is just like an old school street race running for pink slips. Its run what you brung and hope its enough. Put up or shut the fuzzy bunny up.


#24
CraftyDus

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during that time, all those people used the orb lord

we hadn't established the stigma yet


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#25
harmless_kittens

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here's an all time great turret mode vanguard

 

That's a neat video, and reminds a lot about myself in Vanguard now.  I'm getting much better at never showing the enemy my back.  But I have some questions.  How does he get a Vanguard with 1000 health, and what are the "upgrades" and items he was using?  Has the game been changed since the time this video was made?

 

Thanks again.



#26
SS396

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How does he get a Vanguard with 1000 health, and what are the "upgrades" and items he was using?  Has the game been changed since the time this video was made?
 
Thanks again.


Old video is old. The game has changed since that video was recorded. They removed the ability to modify the tuning system that enabled him to achieve 1000 health by allocating tuning points into armor. Its still in game, but cannot be modified by players, the old Devs used to use it to help balance and tweak the mechs. It was an attempt to lessen one of the issues that you have mentioned in one of your other threads where veterans had a significant advantage over a newer player that didn't have these tuning points available.

As for as items, he's using a shield and a repair orb. Internals are advanced armor fusor, basic extractor, and repair kit.

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