manual pucks
#1
Posted 11 February 2016 - 07:09 AM
With that being said EOC is also on different other mechs such as rocketeer. Infiltrator and Raider but you can't manually explode them and you would need either a direct hit or pray someone steps on them to do any good.
That feature should be changed allowing those that have EOC to be manually exploded just like a predator. It would be better imo that way and other class mechs such as the ones I just mentioned would be more fun and used more. Also might balance that stacking problem people do. I don't think it will give advantages. Lol just more play style
#2
Posted 11 February 2016 - 07:19 AM
The problem with EOC pucks is not their lack of manual det, but their speed. Also, adding a button for manual det of a primary would probably be more work than tweaking those numbers, and while it would offer some new gameplay possibilities, I'm not sure we need them atm.
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#3
Posted 11 February 2016 - 07:29 AM
#4
Posted 11 February 2016 - 07:34 AM
But how hard is that too tweak if it's set to do that on the predator already? Not to mention the EOC repeater it has just to add on. Primary EOC shoots 3-5 pucks. Infil has to alpha strike . Raider has to blitz and rocketeer is just rocketeer pretty much a dud mech with it.
Two different weapons, developed by two separate devs and then modified by a new company? And they way Hawken weapons seem to work in the backend (poorly) means that's a lot of development time. Also you're not considering the fact that a new button would have to be mapped specifically for this weapon which, while seemingly easy enough to do, is inefficient and a waste of dev resources.
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#5
Posted 11 February 2016 - 07:35 AM
Adding manual det to EOC R wouldn't really do anything for them because their damage radius is so low and the damage they do while on the ground is quite pitiful unless there is a crap ton of them. Which if you are the only one using them is a very short amount of time if you are spamming them, to make it so there are a lot of them on the ground, due to their 7 second lifetime.
What I am saying is EOC being trash tier weapon compared to almost everything else in Hawken is because of it lacking in some stat areas. Adding remote detonation to them wouldn't change this. I also think adding more remote detonation to the game is a bad idea. The remote detonation TOW and GL spam is already pretty annoying, not to mention lowers the skill requirement for those weapons dramatically.
As for "how can it be hard to add in this functionality since the pred already has it?". The weapon utility button only effects secondary weapons. The EOC Predator, which is not the EOC Repeater, is a secondary weapon on the Predator. I think adding a primary utility button could have some potential in expanding the depth of the game. But using it to add remote detonation to more weapons....imo plz no.
Edited by CounterlogicMan, 11 February 2016 - 07:37 AM.
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#6
Posted 11 February 2016 - 03:10 PM
HIgh risk high reward weapon. Though maybe not enough reward.
Risks:
Dealing enough damage (for the team and individually. High burst damage -> harsher punishment for missing)
Escape route after firing (low fire rate + difficulty to score direct hit makes it harder for mech to defend itself -> reliance on cover)
From an infiltrator's point of view, delivering the deadly load is the challenge. Skilled teams can capitalize on an infiltrators mistakes or even prevent it from getting close enough to deal damage. EOC + GL have lower projectile speeds, therefore having good aim is essential. From a longer distance it is harder to lead, and mechs can dodge your shots easily.
Maybe to fix the infiltrator, increase EOC projectile speed or damage or number of pucks?
Or
increase infiltrator walk speed (scoutfiltrators are so deadly because they can walk faster to get into position. why should it do the infil's job better?)
Increase fuel generation speed or capacity. Infiltrators rely on cloak to attain enough speed to get in position. Boosting out only works well if there aren't a large amount of enemies. But, there aren't many chances to assassinate just one enemy. If you focus on doing this, you will remain on the sidelines for too long which is bad for your friends.
(Maybe i just suck at playing infiltrator though)
Raider: again, reliance on aim. Not experienced in this mech.
Rocketeer: no idea.

#7
Posted 11 February 2016 - 03:40 PM
i think that what the EOC R lacks in power can be made up with mechanics other than manual detonation
#8
Posted 11 February 2016 - 06:47 PM
Yee of little faith, The puck never fails...
One must have solid wrist and sharp eyes, if you use the pucks right they become a very nice nudge into a devastating mirv or nade, i will refuse to address noobfires as well, there is no skill required in using them....
the glorious puck however requires cleverness, quick thinking and logic...
one does not aim at the target with the puck, one unleashes the puck and lets the target do the rest...
the puck always delivers for those with faith...
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Puck Flinging-Nade Lobbing-Troll Tech

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#9
Posted 12 February 2016 - 04:02 AM
I don't think the regular EOCs need remote det. In fact, I think it could make it an OP weapon in the right (or wrong?) hands. I wouldn't want a power increase, either, as the right weapon combo can already one-shot some mechs and do some heavy alpha strike damage on others. Landing all EOCs directly is something I've found to be extremely satisfying, and similarly satisfying when the enemy moves along a trail of EOCs I'd intentionally placed along a predicted path. The feeling isn't nearly as satisfying when I land some EOC-Ps during a fight and remote det them. That feeling is more akin to remote det TOWs and Grenades. I like where the EOC is in terms of usage.
I would welcome an Infiltrator speed increase or maaaaaaaybe an EOC flight speed increase, but I certainly don't feel it needs remote det. If a direct-hit power increase is added, I think the pucks should be destroyable like the EOC-P pucks to encourage landing them instead of spamming them on the ground and walls.
#10
Posted 12 February 2016 - 10:40 AM
EOC-R doesn't need remote detonation at all. Having two weapons with remote det would just be ridiculous.
The problem with EOC-R is travel speed and reload time, both are a touch too slow. Travel speed requires the user to get pretty darn close in most cases to make sure everything is hitting and compared to pretty much every other weapon in the game outside of Mini-Flak you're going to be out distanced in every encounter if they see you. Numerous times I have to break off an attack because someone spotted me and I haven't a hope in hell of getting close enough to make sure I'm stacking the damage fast enough to take them out before I'm killed. This issue could be addressed with an increase to the Infiltrator's walk speed which I do feel should be faster considering how the mech relies on stealth and doesn't feel like it moves quick enough until you're cloaked.
Reload time is the other issue as the EOC-R lacks true follow through. Again with the distance issue above even if you get a good hit on someone you have to hang with them long enough for the EOC-R to reload another burst and unfortunately the EOC-R doesn't get truly great damage until it is fully loaded. So you blast someone and then you're stuck waiting for a few moments as you load in another string of pucks and during this time you're relying solely on your GL which fires in an arc and has a rather slow travel speed compared to other mechs.
Compare EOC-R to something like Heat Cannon which is just a spamtastic weapon if I ever saw you. After your initial charged burst there is literally no reason to go back to charging your shot. Just keep aiming for the feet, let the splash take care of the rest, and just tap away on LMB. EOC-R just doesn't hold a candle to that kind of fire rate and damage output sadly.
Now if EOC-R pucks exploded on impact with a decent AOE when it wasn't charged this might be a different case. This would add a double function to the weapon allowing users to charge a full string to lay down mines or be able to fire off semi-quick explosive bursts designed for more intense encounters instead of trying to get close enough that your target won't casually walk out of the way of your string. This also helps to keep it competitive with the Heat Cannon, which in my opinion is super easy to use and not nearly as rewarding because splash takes care of so much.
EOC-R is all about that direct damage but reload speed and travel speed make that very hard to accomplish in fights leaving the weapon more focused on Alpha Strikes and that's about it. Some out there can make great use of it but there is a lot to overcome in order to be good with it. Nearly every other weapon in the game doesn't have that much to overcome in order to be useful on the battlefield.
There's a reason majority of Infiltrators either use AR or Heat.
#11
Posted 12 February 2016 - 02:06 PM
This weapon is good for two main puposes:
1: Sneak/trap attacks
2: Deterring enemies
Notice how the weapon is only available for Infil, Pred, and Rocket. The first two are stealth/trapping mechs, and te Rocketeer is best suited for holding enemies off and keeping them away. In other words, the weapon is well suited for its task. If anything, the speed might be increased slightly, but even then te Predator specifically might become OP in the hands of a skilled pilot. Keep in mind, the Pred technically has the highest DPS in the game when using both EOC weapons - its just a bit harder to use them as effectively. Make it easier to use them effectively in any scenerio, and suddenly the mech is moving towards being OP.
#12
Posted 12 February 2016 - 02:41 PM
pred has highest burst man... not dps just saying, but i do agree with you here
Puck Flinging-Nade Lobbing-Troll Tech

::eoc Pred::Eoc/HC Infil::Vulcanador::Hawkins Tech::EOC Raider::
" I play on north American servers with a 200Ping to give you cry babies a chance"

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#13
Posted 12 February 2016 - 03:30 PM
Notice how the weapon is only available for Infil, Pred, and Rocket.
Don't forget, it's also on Raider.
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#14
Posted 12 February 2016 - 06:32 PM
The problem with EOC-R is travel speed and reload time, both are a touch too slow. Travel speed requires the user to get pretty darn close in most cases to make sure everything is hitting and compared to pretty much every other weapon in the game outside of Mini-Flak you're going to be out distanced in every encounter if they see you. Numerous times I have to break off an attack because someone spotted me and I haven't a hope in hell of getting close enough to make sure I'm stacking the damage fast enough to take them out before I'm killed. This issue could be addressed with an increase to the Infiltrator's walk speed which I do feel should be faster considering how the mech relies on stealth and doesn't feel like it moves quick enough until you're cloaked.
Reload speed! Didn't think of that. That would really help this weapon quite a lot. I don't mind the travel speed, it makes for some great corner play, and it's always good to have weapons that require greater skill to use effectively.
#15
Posted 12 February 2016 - 07:35 PM
Don't forget, it's also on Raider.
True. Fits for that mech too, though, since it makes an excellent close/mid-range burst weapon.
#16
Posted 13 February 2016 - 01:07 AM
Reload speed! Didn't think of that. That would really help this weapon quite a lot. I don't mind the travel speed, it makes for some great corner play, and it's always good to have weapons that require greater skill to use effectively.
I think at a distance the EOC-R is just a touch too slow, at least for medium range engagement. So often I've seen people just walk out of the way of majority of the damage because of travel time and how far the pucks spread over distance. Up close they are in a tight group so the target has to dodge in order to avoid getting the full effect but at medium range the target can simply walk out of the way.
Might change my mind on that if reload time was quicker I could follow up faster instead of having to wait a few seconds to get a full string loaded again.
#17
Posted 13 February 2016 - 03:08 AM
There is also an apparent ADH philosophy that 1-shot kills are a no-no unless you use a hilariously underpowered damage item with it, but killing in 0.75s is just fine (EOC vs T32 TTK vs. an A-class), no matter how difficult pulling of a shot like that is.
With EOC you really have to have everything stacked against your opponent; armor advantage, positional advantage, surprise factor, enemy mistakes, teammates, items, connection, etc. and even then the enemy has a good chance to retaliate because it takes so long to reload. In 1.5 seconds the enemy can pump as much or even more damage to you as you did to the enemy. The EOC doesn't really compare to its alternatives.
Increasing the projectile speed would achieve little unless you're going to make it ridiculously fast like charged HEAT speed, as the EOC's main challenge lies in leading a chain of projectiles directly onto an opponent. There is a 50 ms delay between each puck fired, so when firing 6 pucks, you are going to have 250 ms time between the first puck and the last puck. In a corner play situation this means the enemy has a variable extra time to react to a salvo, only taking a fraction of the damage. 250 extra ms means a lot when you consider the average competitive gamer's reaction time to be around 200 ms. Even if you increase the projectile speed, it still will have this problem in corner play, and will still have problems with dealing reliable DPS to an opponent. Increasing the projectile speed also cheapens the satisfaction of successful hits (it doesn't feel nearly as good to hit with a charged HEAT than hitting a good EOC salvo).
Why increasing the fire rate would be good, lies in that arbitrary ADH rule that 1-shots are an abomination, but killing faster is OK. You will still have to directly hit a salvo of projectiles to be effective, and the DPS still won't be anything to write home about even if the fire rate was lowered down to 1 second.
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#18
Posted 13 February 2016 - 03:08 AM
I think at a distance the EOC-R is just a touch too slow, at least for medium range engagement. So often I've seen people just walk out of the way of majority of the damage because of travel time and how far the pucks spread over distance. Up close they are in a tight group so the target has to dodge in order to avoid getting the full effect but at medium range the target can simply walk out of the way.
Might change my mind on that if reload time was quicker I could follow up faster instead of having to wait a few seconds to get a full string loaded again.
Indeed, the biggest problem I personally have is that you cant use them at range because of spread, and you cant use them to close because well, between blind (or maybe just stupid) team mates that step in front of me, having a faster reload or maybe changing the fire mode slightly so you could semi auto click and fire a single puck, being able to fire 8 before the reload time,
that would kinda counter for time by adding a slightly more precise aiming option, much like one holds the breacher down to snipe, i dont know about OTHER people but i find when i single click my eoc, 75% of the time it dosent fire unless i hold it down and load more than one puck....
Puck Flinging-Nade Lobbing-Troll Tech

::eoc Pred::Eoc/HC Infil::Vulcanador::Hawkins Tech::EOC Raider::
" I play on north American servers with a 200Ping to give you cry babies a chance"

"Nothing says Good morning Like a well placed Nade"
#19
Posted 13 February 2016 - 03:15 AM
A common idea was to increase the uncharged EOC-R reload speed to achieve a 80 DPS, while keeping the charged EOC the same (i.e. increase the extra reload time)
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#20
Posted 13 February 2016 - 05:10 AM
If it's made too good, too many yahoos will pick it up, and it will no longer be hip.
Mostly on the raider and everything else to a much lesser degree.
It's the hipster option atm. I like that about it.
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#21
Posted 13 February 2016 - 04:54 PM
A common idea was to increase the uncharged EOC-R reload speed to achieve a 80 DPS, while keeping the charged EOC the same (i.e. increase the extra reload time)
That would be almost perfect
Puck Flinging-Nade Lobbing-Troll Tech

::eoc Pred::Eoc/HC Infil::Vulcanador::Hawkins Tech::EOC Raider::
" I play on north American servers with a 200Ping to give you cry babies a chance"

"Nothing says Good morning Like a well placed Nade"
#22
Posted 14 February 2016 - 04:03 PM
A common idea was to increase the uncharged EOC-R reload speed to achieve a 80 DPS, while keeping the charged EOC the same (i.e. increase the extra reload time)
Honestly, this is about as close to a "perfect" solution as I have ever found in any thread similar to this one. I'd be all for this, unless someone can point out some valid reason against it.
#23
Posted 14 February 2016 - 11:58 PM
#24
Posted 15 February 2016 - 09:10 AM
What were EOCR stats before steam patch?
It was all I used on raider for a while. Then steam patch came and nerfed EOC and Buffed T-32.



Come on Crafty, you have been officially called out on your lies. Your online reputation is at stake here, this is just like an old school street race running for pink slips. Its run what you brung and hope its enough. Put up or shut the fuzzy bunny up.
#25
Posted 15 February 2016 - 09:22 AM
What were EOCR stats before steam patch?
It was all I used on raider for a while. Then steam patch came and nerfed EOC and Buffed T-32.
I believe this is the information you're looking for.
If I remember correctly they reduced the AOE by a pretty good margin which needed to happen due to high amounts of EOC spam, especially in objective based modes.
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