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Team Win % Data by Map

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#41
americanbrit14

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Here's what I found in an old analytics DB.  I'll be adding this lookup table for use in future runs:

 

Id Name

0 R_Siege

1 R_Deathmatch

2 R_TeamDeathmatch

3 UNUSED

4 R_MissileAssault

5 R_HordeMode

6 (UNUSED)

7 R_Coop

8 R_Ctf

9 any

10 HawkenTR

11 R_BotsTDM

These are things?!! Gimmie horde mode, me wants horde mode :3


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#42
capnjosh

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These are things?!! Gimmie horde mode, me wants horde mode :3

 

That would be all kinds of fun :)


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#43
capnjosh

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I'm surprised at how lopsided some of the uniform maps like wreckage and origin on missile assault at higher mmrs. These are average mmrs of the match correct? Something tells me these get a bit skewed because it's attempting to balance an odd amount of players more often. Is this data pulled since you made the mmr threshold changes or from the past year or so? Does this also include private servers?

 

The data is since the beginning of April, though it's not complete until sometime in May when we got some logging systems sorted out.

 

Something to keep in mind is that the higher-MMR numbers have a pretty small sample size.  Here's the same set of data, this time showing the number of matches:

 

pC9rdUy.png


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#44
LoC_TR

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This has to go a ways back - Bazaar Siege is on there.


Ya I understood that, haha look at the mmr cap back then. I guess I wanna know does this data represent last months changes as well as the past 2 years or so. If that's the case, there's an abundance of glitches that fuzzy bunnyed with mmr when adh was still around. I seem to remember an exceptionally terrible match making glitch from last January before the move to steam when they first moved the browser system to the star system. Maybe we need to see more data through certain time periods when the matchmaking and browser was much different.

#45
capnjosh

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Oh yes, this data should include *all* matches, public and private.


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#46
LoC_TR

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It also may be skewed at those higher mmrs because many of us use teamspeak, if team 1 has more vocal players they tend to win the match more often. It looks to me the the best representation is probably 2200 mmr, these players have a solid understanding of the maps and game and is most likely to have a full 12 player match. Interesting.
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#47
Leonhardt

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That's a good point.  It may take a deep dive into exactly how the game server assigns which team is 1 and which is 0.  And, could that indicate something about how it attempts to auto-balance teams during the match?  For that matter, could it indicate some predictability with how it assigns teams?  Sounds like we have some very specific questions to answer there.

 

You might also want to consider the fact that many of the maps do have superior spawns especially for modes such as siege or MA. While TDM isn't as effected by spawns throughout the match the starting point of both teams definitely sets the stage for which team has a slight edge to force spawns and take better position in the beginning which can lead to a skewed match especially among less experienced players who don't yet know how to play from lesser positions in a game that is almost 90% positioning.


Edited by Leonhardt, 27 May 2015 - 03:46 PM.


#48
ticklemyiguana

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These are things?!! Gimmie horde mode, me wants horde mode :3

I'm 99.65% sure this just refers to bot destruction. It is horde mode.

 

That being said, that .35% uncertainty is not just for posterity.

 

Wow. Posterity. Apparently I didn't know what that word meant. I thought it meant something along the lines of "posturing" but apparently it means all future generations of people or something like that.


Edited by ticklemyiguana, 27 May 2015 - 04:30 PM.

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#49
americanbrit14

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I'm 99.65% sure this just refers to bot destruction. It is horde mode.

no, R_Coop is bot destruction

 

Get it right tickle, goodness, why are you in charge of anything.


Edited by americanbrit14, 27 May 2015 - 04:24 PM.

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#50
ticklemyiguana

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no, R_Coop is bot destruction

 

Get it right tickle, goodness, why are you in charge of anything.

I retract my statement.


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#51
Amidatelion

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I'm 99.65% sure this just refers to bot destruction. It is horde mode.

 

That being said, that .35% uncertainty is not just for posterity.

 

Wow. Posterity. Apparently I didn't know what that word meant. I thought it meant something along the lines of "posturing" but apparently it means all future generations of people or something like that.

 

...how drunk are you right now?



#52
ticklemyiguana

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...how drunk are you right now?

4


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#53
Flifang

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Is there any way to show the data from the very first few kills in a match? A good first engagement with an enemy team can make it very hard for the victim of a roll to bounce back. Over time people's preferences on the first route to take at the start of a match has changed as well for instance on uptown more and more often I see people choose the areas farthest away from each other distance wise at the start of the match. With game modes like MA, if a team doesn't gain the right rhythm or momentum quickly it can be very hard to win. Or the fact that a few of the MA maps don't have a designated base to spawn from all the time. There is also slight differences between sides of maps that are pretty symmetrical like origin. AA on origin on the sides facing the bases favor specific playstyles. One side favors spam and the other side favors slightly more close hit and run tactics.



#54
Loglino

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4

out of 4.


Mind the fact that pizza is my avatar.
Pizza is cool and you know it.

 <3 HAWKEN

 

 

 


#55
AsianJoyKiller

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I have no idea about the tech involved, but is it possible to get something like heat maps?

 

Knowing if certain maps have issues is a great start, but it does help to know where most of the action is happening. For instance, are certain chokepoints getting more traffic than others, or are particular areas just too (insert something here) to be used often?


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#56
crockrocket

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I think it would also be cool to see the average margin of winning over the same mmr ranges and map selections as here.

 

 

 

I have no idea about the tech involved, but is it possible to get something like heat maps?

 

Knowing if certain maps have issues is a great start, but it does help to know where most of the action is happening. For instance, are certain chokepoints getting more traffic than others, or are particular areas just too (insert something here) to be used often?

 

I wanna see the uptown chokepoint on a heat map, and how that changes across mmr brackets. 


Edited by (TDM)crockrocket, 27 May 2015 - 08:48 PM.

                                                                    JgQjgkx.png

 

Salvage: An Idea to Stop Leavers

Player Retention & Howken

 

[14:31] <Crafty> I know that in my balls
[14:32] <Crafty> hawken is unlike anything Ive played

 

 


#57
nanocage

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Is the player number distribution even along the entire MMR range? I'm asking, because this might explain the unbalanced stats at lower MMRs. Low numbers can skew the data.


Edited by nanocage, 27 May 2015 - 10:48 PM.

InChI=1S/C60/c1-2-5-6-3(1)8-12-10-4(1)9-11-7(2)17-21-13(5)23-24-14(6)22-18(8)28-20(12)30-26-16(10)15(9)25-29-19(11)27(17)37-41-31(21)33(23)43-44-34(24)32(22)42-38(28)48-40(30)46-36(26)35(25)45-39(29)47(37)55-49(41)51(43)57-52(44)50(42)56(48)59-54(46)53(45)58(55)60(57)59

InChIKey: XMWRBQBLMFGWIX-UHFFFAOYSA-N


#58
Anichkov3

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Well colleagues. If you look closely at the map Bazaar in the siege, you will see that she had something quite balance. You will see that one and the other side can sometimes dominate. And by the way, I want to say that in the game you need to prohibit the use of communication - it makes the greatest imbalance in the game - you do not agree? it also offers the advantage of a team?  :teehee:

P.S. Statistics - a scary thing, she does not care about anyone or personal opinion. It displays only the blunt truth.


Edited by Anichkov3, 28 May 2015 - 12:18 AM.

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#59
crockrocket

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 And by the way, I want to say that in the game you need to prohibit the use of communication - it makes the greatest imbalance in the game - you do not agree? it also offers the advantage of a team?  :teehee:

 

Well, you can't prohibit outside coms (i.e. TS). Solution: fix VOIP so everyone has this advantage. 


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Salvage: An Idea to Stop Leavers

Player Retention & Howken

 

[14:31] <Crafty> I know that in my balls
[14:32] <Crafty> hawken is unlike anything Ive played

 

 


#60
dorobo

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Whatever it may be the worst thing is to make everything flat and symetrical.


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#61
zorin1

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Welcome to the tip of the iceberg of when analytics becomes hard - mapping and remapping names, codes... then imagine when they change meanings over time, and then logging formatting changes as well ;)

 

It's no excuse though... I wanted to get *something* out there to chew on.  We can then pick what seems to be an outlier and then zoom in on that.

 It looks like to me that maybe the teams are not even number of players when it starts.  It looks like team 1 might have an extra person in it?  In lower MMR match maybe the extra person makes a bigger of a difference. 



#62
StubbornPuppet

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Perhaps the simplest thing to do to eliminate the advantage of Parties, is to make a change to the auto-balancer so it splits parties up when that works for balancing the teams.  Then there is no need to worry about how to parse that equation in or out of the data.

 

And, despite what the data seems to indicate, Bazaar/Sahara is, without a doubt, imbalanced on Siege mode when at least half of the players have any decent level of experience.  If the teams are balanced, the team with the high ground simply cannot squeeze through those three tiny choke points to get into the AA.  The team from the lower ground (sorry, I simply do not know which is Sentium and which is Prosk as it's so vague) only needs to get a hold on the AA just once and the other team is very, very unlikely to be able to worm their way back in.  It becomes a game of "move up and guard the chokes - they'll never get through."

 

What I think the data is actually showing on that map is that there is a whole lot of two things in Hawken:  Imbalanced teams and players who don't yet have the experience to play strategically.


To be serious for a moment this is just a joke

 


#63
crockrocket

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Pre-match "freakout" confirmed to occur with no parties present.


                                                                    JgQjgkx.png

 

Salvage: An Idea to Stop Leavers

Player Retention & Howken

 

[14:31] <Crafty> I know that in my balls
[14:32] <Crafty> hawken is unlike anything Ive played

 

 


#64
PepeKenobi

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So...

 


However, I thave a feeling I think I know whats going on, PARTIES.  If two veterans smurf, and join a party, I'll bet the balancer always places that party on the same team, and then tries to figure out what to do with the rest of the players.  Its why at the start of a match when theres a party in the lobby, you see the scoreboard freak out and move players around numerous times, until it finds something valid.

 

The question is, do you have data from the time when parties did not exist to compare the two scenarios?

 

/*

 

1.- Yep, I had a bad feeling about Parties being pretty relevant into this actual situation days ago.

 

https://community.pl...indpost&p=36092

 

2.- Also you should take into account players who are still connecting and may end up joining in (or not...) while team balancing and after.

 

3.- On smurfs... let it be or code new checks according to what their career or profile data may say about them to prevent the situation. Or at least to reduce the negative impact because of smurfs.

 

That would be all for now.

 

*/



#65
The_Silencer

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/*

 

1.- Yep, I had a bad feeling about Parties being pretty relevant into this actual situation days ago.

 

https://community.pl...indpost&p=36092

 

2.- Also you should take into account players who are still connecting and may end up joining in (or not...) while team balancing and after.

 

3.- On smurfs... let it be or code new checks according to what their career or profile data may say about them to prevent the situation. Or at least to reduce the negative impact because of smurfs.

 

That would be all for now.

 

*/

+1


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.

The difference between theory and practice is smaller in theory than it is in practice.


#66
Anichkov3

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Maybe someone does not know, but when players come into the group (party) that "The level of MMR Party" increases with the number of party members.

So the party of two players - MMR Party increased 1.15 times.

In the party of three players - MMR increased 1.25 times.

This means that the team with the "party of the players" will enter clearly weaker players than the opposite team.


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#67
M4st0d0n

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Number of wins is a poor indicator of good map design IMO, especially when random spawns modes are involved. Sahara siege was a pain to play. People switched and disconnected to get to the good side.



#68
Anichkov3

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Number of wins is a poor indicator of good map design IMO, especially when random spawns modes are involved. Sahara siege was a pain to play. People switched and disconnected to get to the good side.

Ie you want to say, if map is the ratio of 100 victories in one side and 10 from the other side. But what is there a player or two tell - map "with excellent design" - okay, we like it. So you need to listen to those here "umbilical Earth"? 

It was so good stats - she showed you the real facts, not what you like to do when you play (losing).

Let me guess. You probably also played the most four games with  levels of MMR in 2100? Or in 29 matches, which was the level of MMR 2000?

It turns out you do not even look at the result of 100 matches or 300 matches, right?


Edited by Anichkov3, 29 May 2015 - 05:30 AM.

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#69
Massive_Assailant_Stingray

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There are some pretty key variables that could have substantial affects on this data. Firstly I don't think MMR is a proper balancing metric in the slightest, especially when there are multiple modes that affect it. A player may be better at one mode than another, a player could have very high individual skill but lack in team play ability, or vice versa. And the team play is a very big aspect that can vary wildly in a way that MMR can probably never measure. How well do you read and play off of your team, what is the communication like, are you in a TS giving comms against a completely mute team?

 

MMR works out a little better in a game like CSGO, where there are numbers to support a casual scene, a semi competitive scene(match making), and a competitive scene (external pugs, scrims and matches). In that system, for the most part, people who participate in match making are there to communicate and win. In hawken there's plenty of casual play affecting everyone's MMR.(not to bash casual play, it's all good fun and very important to an community.)

 

And hawken doesn't really have the numbers to support that kind of a set up, people will just play where there's numbers and it likely wouldn't change much.

 

While casual play is good and healthy, it does also lead to probably the largest problem with this data, and that's a complete lack of structure. What did the teams look like during the count down versus the post match carousel? How many people left, joined, sat for team numbers, didn't sit for team numbers, got auto balanced?

 

Also you have data for the matches that do get played on bazaar, but how many matches actually get played on bazaar versus how many servers empty the moment it hits the rotation? That'd be an interesting metric to see.

 

Not to rain on any parades or anything though. What your numbers show is that your maps and game modes definitely "work". But I don't think that really makes them optimal, or even particularly good.

 

I made post not to long ago, going over what I think are fairly important design philosophies in the current maps. I'd really love to hear your opinion on any of those points or the topic as a whole. You'll have to forgive my crudely humored click bait title.



#70
StubbornPuppet

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You know, I never really gave much thought to how the modes and role a player chooses effect their MMR.  But that's totally a big factor.

 

It's probably some part of why my MMR is generally lower (1950 avg.) than the players that I feel like have similar "skill" to my own.  I almost never play anything but Siege and Missile Assault.  When playing those modes, I find the best tactic for winning is to relentlessly push the objectives, KDR be damned.  I don't go chasing after kills when my enemy runs away from the objective - 'cuz that's not my job, my job is to hold... so I do.  I know that I die a lot, but I always try to make sure my death resulted in progress made towards holding the objective.

 

I have noticed that my MMR will increase when I play TDM... but I don't play it very often.  I almost never play DM - it bores me because there's no direction or purpose beyond "kill everything".  And I hate vultures - which seems to be the right thing to be if you want to win a DM.

 

So, maybe a separate MMR rating based on each game mode would be a good step in getting things balanced.


To be serious for a moment this is just a joke

 


#71
talon70

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Is it possible position 0 always receives the extra pilot? That would explain some of these stats especially at the highest and lowest levels where i think odd numbered starting games are more common. I still think people should be added in pairs and pilots held in queue.

 

The teams of 3 has always been a problem for MM and I thought we had an update that breaks up teams if needed. We should do away with the teams of 3 until the player base is a healthier number of pilots. The biggest problem with match making is not enough players! We need a lot more pilots for the current system to have a chance to work.

 

(edit: oh. Stupid me)


Edited by talon70, 30 May 2015 - 07:35 AM.


#72
PepeKenobi

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And I hate vultures - which seems to be the right thing to be if you want to....

 

 

Just for... laughs? ...

 

Today I've seen various team mates literally waiting for me to be killed by 1 or 2 enemies just for gaining a kill to beef up their career stats. Those guys did not even fired a round for giving a minimum backup to me... That was... well, what to say about that? :woot:

 

And that happened to me a couple of times, not in DM but, in TDM and Siege mode... shi()t happens, huh? :rolleyes: :laugh:

 

Back on topic, i had to tell you this little real tale... :teehee:


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#73
TrickyWidget

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Props to you guys for doing the spadework on this. I'm working on a project right now, looking back at code and data from only a couple months ago and asking, "What the hell was I doing?" I can't imagine digging through somebody else's work trying to figure this stuff out.



#74
moosa17

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The numbers in the table in the OP and the table posted on the second page do not match up. The first table's numbers look particularly bonkers, while the second table looks quite reasonable. 


Edited by moosa17, 29 May 2015 - 08:26 PM.


#75
Anichkov3

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I do not understand the question about the positioning teams in the tables. People, you all aware that in the game there are three parties to the conflict? The people, and you know that the team's matches are named - Prosk and Sentium? Are you in the head never got the idea that the number 1 one of the teams (Sentium or Prosk) and the number 0 the other team? And what is in the database on the server is firmly established - under any number of the particular party to the conflict. The fact that today's designers is difficult to navigate in the database - it is "natural", they just get used to the game.

720px-Last_Eco_L2.jpg


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