Will you update Hawken to DirectX 12? What about a 64-bit version?
DirectX 12?
#1
Posted 17 May 2015 - 01:19 PM
#2
Posted 17 May 2015 - 01:39 PM
Short answer: No.
Long answer: No, because to rewrite Hawken to take advantage of DirectX 11 or 12, or 64 bit, or whatever may come in the future would necessitate a complete rewrite of the entire games' code base. It's possible to do, but the Hawken that would result would take several years, and a very significant investment to create, and the end result could end up different in some minor, or potentially major ways depending on how the new engine would work, along with the lack of access to... just about everything the original developers used to reference the creation and development of the game. It's like recreating a car based on a few pictures of it and a description of what it feels like to drive it, but this time with different tools than the people who made the car in the picture had. It's not at all feasible to recreate a game in this way - if a game is going to take advantage of a system like this, the developer needs to plan from the outset to do so, it's not something you can just throw in later.
Edited by Saturnine, 17 May 2015 - 01:52 PM.
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#3
Posted 17 May 2015 - 02:10 PM
Saturnine is completely correct on this on all points. I seriously doubt it will ever happen. Just not feasible or profitable for a multitude of reasons. Sure it would be nice, but would have to realistically been done years ago. Sorry.
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#4
Posted 17 May 2015 - 02:43 PM
My UNI paper back in 2010 ahhh the Horror.
Here is some of it respectively 64bit vs 32bit some pros and cons.
There are many, many threads on this one question: 32 bit or 64 bit Windows?
Well, there are a few things to consider when making this choice. The most obvious difference between 32 bit and 64 bit is the amount of RAM the system can use. The limit on 32 bit is 4Gb of RAM, whereas a 64 bit operating system (OS) can use up to 8Tb (128 in 64 bit Vista, and 192Gb in Seven).
HOWEVER, this is not the only difference, nor is it the only thing that should be considered. This post will cover the basics of 32 bit computing vs. 64 bit computing in an understandable and simple summary.
*If you are looking for a quick comparison, read the Basics and scroll down to the Pros and Cons and Conclusion sections*
The Basics
-The big difference between 32 bit systems and 64 bit systems is the “Addressable Space”. Each device in the system is assigned an address, which takes some of this space. Because the address space is limited, the more hardware you have, the more space is required to address them. Memory (RAM) will get what is left over, and it is this is what takes usable memory in a 32 bit system from 4Gb of RAM to around 3.25Gb.
-Most software today is written and optimized for 32 bit architecture. This means that there will not be a large performance increase by switching. However, for the few pure 64 bit programs out (such as 64 bit Photoshop), there can be a substantial difference.
32 bit OS
A 32 bit OS can only address 4Gb of memory. Some of this is then allocated to hardware devices, usually dropping the available RAM to 3.25Gb or 3.5 Gb.
The addressable space also applies to programs, giving a 2Gb limit of RAM to any one process. This means that 32 bit Photoshop can only ever access up to 2Gbs of RAM.
Drivers are always a concern. Drivers for hardware usually have a 32 bit version, and there is usually not a problem with 32 bit drivers (finding or using).
A 32 bit OS has a lower memory requirement to run. For Windows 7, the minimum RAM needed is 1Gb
64 bit OS
A 64bit OS can address up too 8Tb of RAM (128 in 64 bit Vista, and 192Gb in Seven).
The addressable space for a 64 bit process is 8Tb. However, a 32 bit process still has the 2Gb limit. So 64 bit Photoshop can access up to 8Tb of RAM, while 32 bit Photoshop (running on a 64 bit OS) will still only be able to access up to 2Gb.
64 bit drivers used to be harder to find. However, since Vista 64bit drivers have become almost as common as 32bit drivers. In order for a driver to be WHQL-certified by Microsoft, there must be a 32bit and 64bit version of it, which has really helped in producing drivers. I have been running a 64bit OS since Vista and have yet to find a program that doesn't work or hardware that doesn't have a 64bit driver.
-64 bit OS needs more RAM to operate (minimum of 2Gb for Windows), and programs slightly more RAM. This is countered by being able to add WAY more RAM (I have never encountered a problem with 4Gb of RAM on my 64 bit system)
-There is no longer 16 bit compatibility
Misconceptions
RAM limit is the only difference: This is obviously the most well-known difference, but is completely false. There are WAY more differences, some of which go way deep into computer architecture, and others that don't make a difference in performance.
-Non-compatibility: Some people believe that certain things will not work in 64 bit OS, etc. While 32 bit programs and 64 bit programs are NOT COMPATIBLE with the other system (64 bit and 32 bit respectively), Microsoft writes their Operating Systems with a Hybrid architecture (Windows In Windows, or WoW). This means that most 32 bit programs will work on 64 bit systems.
No performance difference: This one is a quirky question. In general, there is not a large performance increase by switching to 64 bit. This is because most programs are still written with 32 bit architecture in mind, and do not need more than 2Gb of RAM. The difference starts to shine when running things like 64 bit Photoshop or CAD programs where LOTS of RAM is used.
-32 bit is better for gaming because of compatibility issues with the games or drivers: This one just isn't true. I have been running a 64 bit OS exclusively since Vista, and not once have I had a driver or game (except very old) incompatibility. If you are a gamer, a 64 bit OS would be the better choice, especially so you can use more RAM.
Pros (of switching to a 64 bit OS)
Certain programs written for 64 bit computers can make better use of CPU and RAM, giving a LARGE performance boost (such as 64 bit Photoshop)
More RAM is available
64 bit is becoming more and more common. As average RAM in a system increases, there will be no choice BUT a 64 bit system.
Cons (of switching to a 64 bit OS)
Certain programs may not be compatible with the new OS (very rare)
Needs a minimum of 2Gb of RAM to run
Needs a 64 bit processor to run (most made since 2003 are 64 bit)
System uses more RAM to run the OS and programs
Drivers may be harder to find and use
Conclusion
In the end, I usually recommend using a 64 bit operating system for all of its advantages. I have used a 64 bit OS for years now, and have encountered so few problems that I have no real reason to NOT recommend it.
However, if you plan on having less than 3Gb of RAM, have an older computer, or a 32 bit processor, I usually recommend a 32 bit system.
I hope this can help to settle all the threads about 32 bit vs. 64 bit operating systems.
Let me know if there is anything I can / should add.
Better yet post it---save me the time.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Much has changed since 2010 however processor also effected ram usage still apply today.
Video cards for example. Some games can fill close to or over 2gb , to use high setting or ultra...system req-has changed and it is up to us the user to keep up with the times.
Hawken would have to painfully be completely started again from scratch, this is comparable to writing a new game altogether.
Just as Vista( SPIT) I think was the first publicly sold 64bit windows system. At that time most every game out there was 32bit.
Game developers raced to change up, if they did for you the client wonderful if not then your stuck playing in a 32bit coded game. Example Crysis 2...... I think was, but that was so long ago.
Please remember this paper was written in 2010 much still applies today, yet will still help you to draw the 64bit conclusion.
The above is only for reference, again I hope this helped someone?
More recent info can be found here: http://www.asmcommun...topic/?id=30928
Saturnine this is the LONG LONG answer :)
Edited by Goretastik, 17 May 2015 - 05:09 PM.
#5
Posted 17 May 2015 - 05:07 PM
Short answer: No.
Long answer: No, because to rewrite Hawken to take advantage of DirectX 11 or 12, or 64 bit, or whatever may come in the future would necessitate a complete rewrite of the entire games' code base. It's possible to do, but the Hawken that would result would take several years, and a very significant investment to create, and the end result could end up different in some minor, or potentially major ways depending on how the new engine would work, along with the lack of access to... just about everything the original developers used to reference the creation and development of the game. It's like recreating a car based on a few pictures of it and a description of what it feels like to drive it, but this time with different tools than the people who made the car in the picture had. It's not at all feasible to recreate a game in this way - if a game is going to take advantage of a system like this, the developer needs to plan from the outset to do so, it's not something you can just throw in later.

And this is why people who have no experience in programming shouldn't make assumptions with things to do with programming and whats required or needed.
Upgrading the library functions to use DirectX 11, or 12 calls, does not require a full rewrite of Hawken. That sort of comment can only come from someone that doesn't understand what a function call is. It would only require updating calls here and there where needed. Most of the code would remain unchanged, especially the code that doesn't use any directX graphical calls. Think about it for a minute, let that sink in, cause its pretty obvious when you just think about it. DirectX is a LIBRARY, the only issue is with DirectX 9 function calls that have been deprecated (no longer used), or renamed, for the things that haven't changed everything would compile just fine, because nothing has changed.
To use your car analogy, its like upgrading the tires from S to Z rated ones. It doesn't require a complete new car, you just put new Z rated tires on it as long as they were the same size as the old ones and fit the rims.
Heres some info for you to peruse (I'm sure it'll be like looking at greek):
https://msdn.microso...s/dn166881.aspx
https://msdn.microso...s/dn166864.aspx
And lastly, Josh has already built a 64-bit version of Hawken in house, it shouldn't of required any changes to the code either (not exactly sure on if it required any code changes, but I'd say that theres about a 95% chance it didn't require a single change), Why? because its a COMPILER flag, the compiler handles the larger addresses on its own, it has nothing to do with the code. lol.
I'm sure we'll see a 64bit build available, or at least I hope so. I'd like to try it, though I doubt anyone will notice any change in performance honestly.
4. We built our first functioning Hawken client. To make it more of a challenge, we built a 64-bit client too.- We need to roll back some changes we're seeing in there, and it seems that may take some decent effort (for both client and server), but the point is that I was able to log in with a client built from source :)- The original estimate for an actual client build was roughly 4-6 months after we acquired Hawken, so we're still a good 2-3 months out.. just to set some expectations... And, yes, it's ok to vent frustration that it's not faster/sooner/better/bigger/badder/full-of-win ;)
So, yeah, your entire post um, no, that isn't the way things work with referenced libraries. I can't sit here and let that sort of bad information slide, especially when Josh himself posted in one of the weekly updates that he already built a 64 bit version a few weeks ago. You should of at least been up to date with that before you posted your invalid response.
So is it possible to go to directX 12 Corndog2000, yes. Is it likely they will go to DirectX 11/12, I doubt it, it would require a bunch of work but it would hardly be a complete rewrite.
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fuzzy bunny you CZeroFive
#6
Posted 17 May 2015 - 06:43 PM
My post mentioned nothing about referenced libraries. Not a word about it only 32bit vs 64bit.....the differences nothing again nothing about referenced libraries. Lets be clear.
However you are In-titled to you opinion with respect.
About the car reference:
Just put a tire z on a s or something to that effect.
Sounds Great only issue is you did not mention that one car is a Ford-32 bit and the other a Chevy-64bit
Diff bolt configurations just wont work. I dont care what compiler someone uses.
Script and code will need to change this is a certainty. Not saying all of it.
What engine
What source-
Language or Languages
Architecture Specifics
Just some things to consider.
Point being your friend just will not compile referenced libraries no no no there is far far more to it.
If he could he would have a Hawken 64bit in a matter of hours. I only wish not just for Hawken but for many other programs.
If one does not change some script and code it it result in stack errors by the hundreds a land slide of them and I am not exaggerating in the least. When this happens its coffee time.
This is why there is a Stack overflow.com for folks that feel I will throw my Intel or Microsoft compiler at it (Sure that will work doh) , there is a debate which is better, cannot wait for that topic to burn threads...LOL
Then once its all going well the developer can start the optimization processes.
Hope your friend is at that stage!
I bet many here would luv to give it a go.
Myself included
I respectfully agree to disagree.
All the best.
#7
Posted 17 May 2015 - 07:55 PM
My post mentioned nothing about referenced libraries. Not a word about it only 32bit vs 64bit.....the differences nothing again nothing about referenced libraries. Lets be clear.
However you are In-titled to you opinion with respect.
FYI, my post mentioned nothing in regards to your post. Really the only slight issue I had with your post is that it was completely off topic and irrelevant to what Corndog2000 asked. But, oh well, I pretty much ignored it, shrug. I don't know how you missed that, but as an example, had I actually responded to anything you posted, I would of quoted you, just like now. It did have some useful information though, most people don't understand that a 32 bit process in a 64 bit environment can still only address 2 gigs of space, unless it was compiled with a special flag. I've posted that over and over many times on the old forums when people have recommended that users who play Hawken buy/use 8 gigs of ram or more.
About the car reference:
Just put a tire z on a s or something to that effect.
Sounds Great only issue is you did not mention that one car is a Ford-32 bit and the other a Chevy-64bit
Diff bolt configurations just wont work. I dont care what compiler someone uses.
Script and code will need to change this is a certainty. Not saying all of it.
What engine
What source-
Language or Languages
Architecture Specifics
Just some things to consider.
Point being your friend just will not compile referenced libraries no no no there is far far more to it.
If he could he would have a Hawken 64bit in a matter of hours. I only wish not just for Hawken but for many other programs.
If one does not change some script and code it it result in stack errors by the hundreds a land slide of them and I am not exaggerating in the least. When this happens its coffee time.
This is why there is a Stack overflow.com for folks that feel I will throw my Intel or Microsoft compiler at it (Sure that will work doh) , there is a debate which is better, cannot wait for that topic to burn threads...LOL
Then once its all going well the developer can start the optimization processes.
Hope your friend is at that stage!
I bet many here would luv to give it a go.
Myself included
I respectfully agree to disagree.
All the best.
I have no clue what you are even talking about. Tires come in sizes, they are not brand specific, you can put a goodyear 245 50 15 on any brand of car as long as it has the correct rim size, and the tire has the correct clearance in the wheel well. Secondly, nobody is changing the rims and trying to put ford rims on a chevy or vice versa, however it is possible, I've done it, they do make adapters. http://www.ezaccesso...apters_s/44.htm. My point was when you take your car into the tire shop to upgrade the tires, they are upgrading the tires, not swapping out the rims. The car and the rims you drove in, are are same as you drive away with, unless you are buying new rims at the same time. Oh well I digress.
The rest of the stuff I have no idea where to even begin, you use the phrase "my friend".... he isn't "my friend" Josh is the new producer of Hawken. He posted that he had already successfully built a 64 bit version of Hawken, which is something the original poster had asked, and one of the responses said that it was impossible without a complete rewrite of Hawken that would take YEARS of work and a redesign. I simply responded to that falsification, sorry if you felt I was attacking you, I wasn't.
[DELETED]
fuzzy bunny you CZeroFive
#8
Posted 17 May 2015 - 08:01 PM
And this is why people who have no experience in programming shouldn't make assumptions with things to do with programming and whats required or needed.
Upgrading the library functions to use DirectX 11, or 12 calls, does not require a full rewrite of Hawken. That sort of comment can only come from someone that doesn't understand what a function call is. It would only require updating calls here and there where needed. Most of the code would remain unchanged, especially the code that doesn't use any directX graphical calls. Think about it for a minute, let that sink in, cause its pretty obvious when you just think about it. DirectX is a LIBRARY, the only issue is with DirectX 9 function calls that have been deprecated (no longer used), or renamed, for the things that haven't changed everything would compile just fine, because nothing has changed.
So is it possible to go to directX 12 Corndog2000, yes. Is it likely they will go to DirectX 11/12, I doubt it, it would require a bunch of work but it would hardly be a complete rewrite.
Gonna emphasize that "where needed" part. Going from D3D9 to D3D11 is a big enough leap as it is. D3D12? Even bigger.
While 64-bit is technically possible, a jump from D3D9 to D3D12 would require a significant rewrite of a lot of code. At that, does Unreal Engine 3 even support DirectX 12? If not, wouldn't the game have to be ported to UE4?
Updating a graphics API is one thing, but an entire gameplay engine? Come on. This isn't Unity, lol.
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#9
Posted 18 May 2015 - 05:39 AM
Learn with Unity-old news
iOS 64-bit support
Microsoft, Northrop Grumman and Firaxis Games. "Nitrous, was designed from scratch to be a 64-bit, multicore engine."
From Scratch - key words
Crysis is a excellent example engine wise and a beautiful German example. To bad there broke LOL LOL
32bit to 64bit engine included.
My wish in my first post was to give freely some information to allow the end user/client a reason or reasons to go 64bit obliviously and why.
64bit vs ram so again user/client can make an informed decision.
I even today run into folks running 32bit p4 systems, they just dont die but cannot upgrade to industry standard.
As for direct x 11/12 Im waiting and reading what win 10 will hold in the graphics area???
It would be nice to see some of my 64bit drivers actually install in windows 10 unlike presently today.
The phrase in my cell is "Teach the Baby"
However Microsoft's direct X 12 would be madness not to implement fully and is worth approximately 25 billion to the gaming industry. Thats is partly my paycheck.
As a Developer I would very much like to see a thinner, more efficient API that allows me to control hardware and resources more directly. Despite significant efficiency improvements and delivered by continuous advancement of existing API implementations with next-generation applications want to extract all possible performance from multi-core systems.
The User/Client demands this.
Unity --- and yes that`s not Unity thats the Demand, by millions of users.
Money Money MONAAAY
End of Line -no further posts by this Group Pc Topic considered closed. :)
Edited by Goretastik, 18 May 2015 - 05:57 AM.
#10
Posted 18 May 2015 - 07:59 AM
And this is why people who have no experience in programming shouldn't make assumptions with things to do with programming and whats required or needed.
Upgrading the library functions to use DirectX 11, or 12 calls, does not require a full rewrite of Hawken. That sort of comment can only come from someone that doesn't understand what a function call is. It would only require updating calls here and there where needed. Most of the code would remain unchanged, especially the code that doesn't use any directX graphical calls. Think about it for a minute, let that sink in, cause its pretty obvious when you just think about it. DirectX is a LIBRARY, the only issue is with DirectX 9 function calls that have been deprecated (no longer used), or renamed, for the things that haven't changed everything would compile just fine, because nothing has changed.
But, the DX11 option is already in the client, I've fiddled with the inis to change the renderer and DX10 and 11 are there, OpenGL too. Though they're quite buggy when switched to, only 2~3 minutes of map explore till it ended up crashing, so the modes are there, but not fully functional.
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#11
Posted 18 May 2015 - 08:32 AM
Gonna emphasize that "where needed" part. Going from D3D9 to D3D11 is a big enough leap as it is. D3D12? Even bigger.
While 64-bit is technically possible, a jump from D3D9 to D3D12 would require a significant rewrite of a lot of code. At that, does Unreal Engine 3 even support DirectX 12? If not, wouldn't the game have to be ported to UE4?
Updating a graphics API is one thing, but an entire gameplay engine? Come on. This isn't Unity, lol.
Unity uses DirectX too (on Windows, at least). ;)
Also, it is still quite a major task to upgrade a game's source between engine versions, even in Unity. I've tried. Now, as someone who has never used UE, I can't say much there. BUT, in terms of general knowledge, I DO know that it wouldn't require "a nearly complete rewrite" of the code. Reason? Because a large portion of a game's code is the game logic itself - especially when you're using an engine and a pre-built graphics library. Now, as I said, I have no personal experience with UE or DirectX, so I can't say how long it would take for an upgrade - but if UE kept its API fairly backwards compatible from 3 to 4, then the biggest challenge will likely be to update the graphics libraries and the graphics related code.
But, the DX11 option is already in the client, I've fiddled with the inis to change the renderer and DX10 and 11 are there, OpenGL too. Though they're quite buggy when switched to, only 2~3 minutes of map explore till it ended up crashing, so the modes are there, but not fully functional.
Consider though when the last released build was, though. If anything, I would expect those implementations to be very incomplete and nowhere near a working state. I could be wrong, but that would be my first inclination.
Edited by BluetoothBoy, 18 May 2015 - 08:35 AM.
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#12
Posted 18 May 2015 - 09:44 AM
I read some where that CaptNJosh compiled Hawken as a 64bit, don't remember what version of directx. He said that it kind of worked but needs some work.
https://community.pl...nd-some-charts/
Edited by zorin1, 18 May 2015 - 09:49 AM.
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#13
Posted 18 May 2015 - 01:57 PM
Consider though when the last released build was, though. If anything, I would expect those implementations to be very incomplete and nowhere near a working state. I could be wrong, but that would be my first inclination.
It's the shader pipeline calls that's causing it to crash, the client is using older antiquated calls that aren't supported in 10 and 11 anymore, well are but are need special commenting in the line in order for them to render correctly. Josh & crew are lucky because Unreal Engine is easily expandable with the base libraries for the APIs there already, the API in the client just needs to be written/adjusted to use them correctly.
#14
Posted 18 May 2015 - 02:18 PM
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#15
Posted 18 May 2015 - 03:23 PM
#16
Posted 19 May 2015 - 12:01 PM
i know next to nothing about programing, but i too have wondered the viability of migrating to UE4, i am sure that UE4 shares a lot with UE3
We Can Dance If We Want To

#17
Posted 23 May 2015 - 07:23 PM
i know next to nothing about programing, but i too have wondered the viability of migrating to UE4, i am sure that UE4 shares a lot with UE3
The changes are not trivial. A game engine is far from just a method library or plugin. It's a framework which the game is built on top of. Looks like the amount of work needed to migrate to UE4 wouldn't be worth it. UE3 to UE4 Transition Guide.
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#18
Posted 23 May 2015 - 08:20 PM
And this is why people who have no experience in programming shouldn't make assumptions with things to do with programming and whats required or needed.
Upgrading the library functions to use DirectX 11, or 12 calls, does not require a full rewrite of Hawken. That sort of comment can only come from someone that doesn't understand what a function call is...

Edited by Nightfirebolt, 23 May 2015 - 08:20 PM.
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