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Grenadier a serious problem .... suppression support is not mesured in game

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#1
Source_Mystic

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I play Grenadier alot it is now my faviort mech but it has the ablity to change the tide of a death ball and stop an enemy from killing and it  reverses  the tide.. i have noticed that  in these games i am last and second to last in the lineup .. why I saved the game i supressed the other team so well that I made it possable to revverse a death ball. this is because ther is no in game mesurment of supression there needs to be because kills is not the only way a person can be mvp. THis needs to be adressed when and if it will  I do not know but it is kind of a slanted system when supression mecks get no  bounus from  doing ther job. when almost all otther mecks do. What do you think?


Edited by Source_Mystic, 07 September 2015 - 08:21 PM.

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#2
System64

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Reverse a death ball? Do you mean you deflected enemy shots/projectiles?


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#3
Morticius

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no, i think he means his efforts were a measurable factor (hits, dispersion, retreat) in a match, but for which no value or scale is assigned. it's a Real Feel thing, too. if your efforts have been major in several matches, but not really tallied anywhere. sorta like the scoff a EOC Rocketeer gets after busting his butt keeping the enemy down while his team mops up.

Ben there Dunn that.

This is a valid issue.


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#4
cbrxx

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If you want mvp play a different mech.  You can be mvp and so long as you know it who cares. 

 

I used to get lots of mvp's on my most played character at the time, the g2 assault, mostly because of revenge kills.  mvp doesn't care how many times you die.

 

*edit* I totally forgot rocketeers had an eoc, that would make for some interesting play.


Edited by cbrxx, 07 September 2015 - 08:53 PM.


#5
Morticius

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and, granted, any support mech can and is able to get MVP (LONEDEADWOLF comes to mind...). not a problem, there. i think the OP may be just wanting fair pointing for the work done.


Edited by Morticius, 07 September 2015 - 08:51 PM.

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#6
DieselCat

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I play a lot more Grenadier lately too and agree it's a suppression mech when using the Rev-GL. I've watched some players that are really good with that setup score very high in matches. I myself am not good with that primary, but I'm practicing more with it, though it's hard to get the hang of it for me to score well.

 

On the other hand, I also play Grenadier with the Vulcan and if I'm in a fairly balanced match can do really well at times with with kills, assists and score.  

 

When using the Rev-GL, it's kind of like that player on a basketball team that never really gets noticed but helps his team win by doing all the little things and dirty work that one doesn't see in the box score.

 

I kinda see what you're saying when playing the suppression game and not getting kills or assists to score high for the team ....guess the only gauge one can use to see how well you did is the damaged given and received. Really don't know how that can be translated in points/score though.

 

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#7
System64

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Okay now I see where you're coming from - you're complaining that players don't get rewarded enough for anything that is not a kill/assist. I agree, several aspects of gameplay are ignored by the rewards system. Countless times I have helped pull the team to victory by defending teammates or defending objectives, and only to appear near the bottom of the ladder.


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#8
Morticius

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my view is i enjoy my support/suppresion mechs, period. incin is a hoot, Rocky is a hoot, and for gawdsakes gren is a fat 2 year old kids with a cannon and boom-launcher with a high-speed shift.

they are all fun, i don't need a change personnally, but the OP has a point. if my fatboy shots backed off the dethball, and made the game, i'd like cred for it, just like the mvp gets.


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#9
Morticius

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defending teammates or defending objectives, and only to appear near the bottom of the ladder.

exactly


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#10
Source_Mystic

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Reverse a death ball? Do you mean you deflected enemy shots/projectiles?

 

 

NO I MEAN I SUPRESSED THE ENEMY  whtat does that mean ? it means that constantly cut of ther ablity  to attack by bombarding all incoming choke points with nades. it means that besides just avoinding my teammates they had to deal with and doge and dance arond a airal mine feild that mad anny organized atattck as a enemy team imposable it means that I made it so impossable that there deathballing stoped and my team can push and reverse the death ball becaus of me that is what it means to supress fire NOT deflectING enemy shots/projectiles? SMART A$$.



#11
Source_Mystic

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no, i think he means his efforts were a measurable factor (hits, dispersion, retreat) in a match, but for which no value or scale is assigned. it's a Real Feel thing, too. if your efforts have been major in several matches, but not really tallied anywhere. sorta like the scoff a EOC Rocketeer gets after busting his butt keeping the enemy down while his team mops up.

Ben there Dunn that.

This is a valid issue.

 

Exactly



#12
Morticius

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calm down bro. the fat boy drivers among us are on your side.


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#13
System64

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NO I MEAN I SUPRESSED THE ENEMY  whtat does that mean ? it means that constantly cut of ther ablity  to attack by bombarding all incoming choke points with nades. it means that besides just avoinding my teammates they had to deal with and doge and dance arond a airal mine feild that mad anny organized atattck as a enemy team imposable it means that I made it so impossable that there deathballing stoped and my team can push and reverse the death ball becaus of me that is what it means to supress fire NOT deflectING enemy shots/projectiles? SMART A$$.

Whoa whoa... it was just a misunderstanding. I realised what you actually ment shortly after.


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#14
Morticius

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see? told ya so. haven't seen "sub" since he was noob and kicked my butt, but IIRC he drives more than a few Cs and just might be on your side here, Source


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#15
Source_Mystic

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Whoa whoa... it was just a misunderstanding. I realised what you actually ment shortly after.

 

 

ok that is cool just a bit tired of people and smart a$$ remarks when i have valid points.


Edited by Source_Mystic, 07 September 2015 - 09:19 PM.

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#16
System64

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see? told ya so. haven't seen "sub" since he was noob and kicked my butt, but IIRC he drives more than a few Cs and just might be on your side here, Source

Wait what? Are you in AUS or Asia at all? I don't remember playing against anyone by your name.


Edited by ??ß?ØØƒ??, 07 September 2015 - 09:13 PM.

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#17
Morticius

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you spent a whole night in bos-tdm and enjoyed hours of fun. DM or TDM too, dont remember. and i never saw youagain. welcome to the Hawken, noob. :D

 

got to thinking. i run about 30 smurfs. i could be wrong here... :)
 


Edited by Morticius, 07 September 2015 - 09:21 PM.

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#18
System64

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bos-tdm - By that do you mean Boston servers? They give me horrible ping since I'm in AU lmao, the only playable mechs for me on non-AU servers are the tech, rocketeer and grenadier.

 

Also please note that in game I am named System64, this forum name I have here is impossible to use as an IGN.


Edited by ??ß?ØØƒ??, 07 September 2015 - 09:26 PM.

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#19
Morticius

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maybe thats why i remember you as a C frame heavy player. i'm on USE (2 hrs drive from ashland servers) and have atrocious ping on AU and EU servers. but even EU beats LosAngeles, and Oceania beats Amsterdam ping. oh: bots-tdm.  play more. good fun, no risks, and laid back crowd. surf the servers. bring hellfires, they work best there!


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#20
JeffMagnum

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Suppressing the enemy team doesn't mean you shouldn't also be doing a lot of damage and racking up kills and assists. There really isn't a problem like you're describing with the scoring system or with Rev Gren itself; it's perfectly capable of consistently getting MVP on most of the maps when played well. If you're always at the bottom of the scoreboard then tbh it's some sort of an issue on your side and not with Hawken. 


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#21
Source_Mystic

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Suppressing the enemy team doesn't mean you shouldn't also be doing a lot of damage and racking up kills and assists. There really isn't a problem like you're describing with the scoring system or with Rev Gren itself; it's perfectly capable of consistently getting MVP on most of the maps when played well. If you're always at the bottom of the scoreboard then tbh it's some sort of an issue on your side and not with Hawken.

 

Anyone that plays  gren knows what I am talking about and you more exereanced player will do what they should, namily back off  when a gen starts lobing grenades around a coner and doing damage they do that is supression you can not and will not get mvp with that mech unles you team seriously pushes  when you do bombard them with nades.

 

BUT THIS IS NOT EVEN TEH TOPIC OF THE POST  The topic is

Grenadier a serious problem .... suppression support is not mesured in game. it is a suppression mech it gets no bounus as such.  It is not a front line mech and is not ment for direct kills i am not talking about heat cannon or vulcan gren i am talking about rev gl gren and if you supress so well that you  make it possable for a death ball to be stoped and then reversed you should get points for that and posably mvp in games where you do this  that well.

 

I am arguing the role of this mech and that if you play that role well you should get rewarded .

what i am not arguing is if you are a ungodly player or using gren  in a role that it is not intended for.


Edited by Source_Mystic, 08 September 2015 - 03:09 AM.


#22
Rainbow_Sheep

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I play Grenadier a lot and get plenty of points. I don't see what the problem is.

 

Even if this were to be implemented, how would the game calculate what is and isn't suppression / forcing enemies to retreat? It would all end up pretty arbitrary and be easy to accidentally award points for not doing much


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#23
comic_sans

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Anyone that plays  gren knows what I am talking about and you more exereanced player will do what they should, namily back off  when a gen starts lobing grenades around a coner and doing damage they do that is supression you can not and will not get mvp with that mech unles you team seriously pushes  when you do bombard them with nades.

 

BUT THIS IS NOT EVEN TEH TOPIC OF THE POST  The topic is

Grenadier a serious problem .... suppression support is not mesured in game. it is a suppression mech it gets no bounus as such.  It is not a front line mech and is not ment for direct kills i am not talking about heat cannon or vulcan gren i am talking about rev gl gren and if you supress so well that you  make it possable for a death ball to be stoped and then reversed you should get points for that and posably mvp in games where you do this  that well.

 

It is impossible to quantify or measure what you're talking about.  That's about all there is to it.

 

also please try proofreading instead of frothing at the mouth at your keyboard


Edited by clomic_snuts, 08 September 2015 - 03:12 AM.

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#24
Source_Mystic

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 Nothing is impossable it would be as easy as quintafiying the time of kills and how much dammage happend how fast per team. If a gren is suppressing well  the enemy team kills and dammage will  slow and reverse  the enemy team would take more dammage faster and would not be able to get past the supression.

 

Supression is about interpution of a team and slowing down the abblity to  react efficiently it could be calculated  all the  data is already there kills assist when and how they take place the only thing that would need to be adde is a pace of this as a team.  If it slowes significantly and dammage/ deathball reverses  then that is where the gren should get a bounus for supression.  all it requires is a mesurment of a teams kills and dammage over a match. then that mesurment to be converted into a nurmarical value of said bounus

 

supression  breaks up teams

 

Stops dammage from taking place

 

And alows team with supression to do more dammage due to the interpution

 

Just mesure dammage and kills over a match  and time it takes for a team to do it ... if that pace slows significantly  because of supression and is revrsed  well they ya go a way to make a suppression bounus.

 

all other mechs get a reward for doing ther job well because it is liknked to kills gren dshoould get a bounious for supressing the  other team and making it easer for there team to do more dammage. Point remains valid 


Edited by Source_Mystic, 08 September 2015 - 03:45 AM.


#25
Silverfire

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How do you quantify someone breaking a team up? That just feels like free points. How does one earn points for shooting at blank space to keep an enemy away? By that logic, I could shoot into the sky and say "I'm suppressing the air and keep enemy away" and still earn points. That's silly. I play Grenadier a lot. I still manage to place high on the scoreboard despite being a "support suppression" type mech with the Rev GL. I don't mean to be harsh but perhaps an alteration to your play style or approach to suppression needs to be slightly revised in order to earnore points and be higher on the scoreboard.

 

If you're doing damage, points will inevitably come your way. That makes sense.  If you get kills, points will come your way. That makes sense.  I'm just not exactly sure how exactly someone can quantify "slowing the pace down" and assign the reason for that to a certain player.  What if the opposing team chose to slow down the pace themselves, take a more cautious approach NOT due to your suppression?  How does the game determine between their choice and your action?  It's just a hazy sort of thing to actually assign point value to. And points for not taking damage is odd, imo. I could likewise sit in a corner and hide and still get points. Suppression with the Grenadier and placing high on the scoreboard is definitely possible.


Edited by Silverfire, 08 September 2015 - 04:01 AM.

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#26
PoopSlinger

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I think he means like in Battlefield where you get miniscule pts for firing around an enemy, which decreases their accuracy (When you actually shoot people, you get like 6x the points). In Hawken the gren should be putting out damage and hurt enough to be getting points. If you're not getting those points, you're not doing your job that well. You still get a win and the extra HC.

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#27
CraftyDus

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The scoring in Hawken is more generous than the older shooter I played competitively. After spending some years getting 90% damage on 90% of my engagements and getting nothing for it, Hawken style scoring is refreshing.

 

As a regular Hawken bad who's leveled over a dozen accounts to 30 using Rev-GL, I would recommend deathmatching as much as you can.

 

I would also suggest spending a few weeks to a month using ONLY the revolver grenade launcher and NOT using the High Explosive Secondary.

 

If you do this, by the middle/beginning of October you'll be pleased that you were able to mold your dissatisfaction with lackluster endround standings into the secret knowledge that you are OP in a REV-GL Grenadier.

 

Because Rev-GL is best GL


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#28
GalaxyRadio

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You get rewarded by doing your job with the mech you choosed and win the match, that is all you need.

 

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#29
JeffMagnum

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From your posts, it seems like you're playing Gren really passively from a distance and expecting to get as many points for harassing and lightly zoning the other team as someone would for straight-up killing them. I doubt any FPS game's scoring works like that, and like a lot of other people said what you're suggesting isn't really quantifiable in any meaningful way. It's basically free points for doing the main thing you're supposed to be doing, i.e. shooting at the enemy. 

 

Can you upload some footage of you using Rev Gren so I can see if you're making mistakes that'd keep you from doing well? It's a pretty difficult mech to learn since your prediction and positioning skills have to be on point beyond what's required for choices that rely on direct fire. If you aren't actively making an effort to push and put pressure on the enemies and are relying on your teammates to clean up everyone you dent then I can see why you'd think people aren't rewarded enough for playing the mech. 

 

It feels self-serving to link to myself (I'm not sure who else I could use off the top of my head since most older Twitch videos were deleted and Rev Gren gameplay vids are rare to begin with) in this discussion, but here's a video of me MVPing and leading in kills/KDR in a server with two other top-10 players and probably four or five additional people above 2300 MMR:

 

 

 


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#30
Amidatelion

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I'm going to give you the advice I give everyone else who wants to play "support" in Hawken.

There is no support. There is only damage. Sure, you're suppressing people because bouncing nades. Know what's better than that? Suppressing them because you've done so much damage they have to run. So you're holding a corridor by hurling grenades down it. Know what's better? Holding your fire, staying off the radar and then smacking the first tthing around the corner in the fave with ~200 damage.

There is no effective way to play support in Hawken that is not more effective by killing the opponent harder.
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#31
nepacaka

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all problem in your k/d. do not blame grenadier. gren can be offensive, defensive or support, it is great mech to create a deathball, or destroy enemies deathball. i can't see any problem in grenadier.


Edited by nepacaka, 08 September 2015 - 05:50 AM.

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#32
CraftyDus

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Some people roll rev-gl gren only for certain maps, like uptown and interior wreckage. plebs.

 

Here's where I get accused of aimbotting a rev-gl on bunker.

 


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#33
Amidatelion

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Some people roll rev-gl gren only for certain maps, like uptown and interior wreckage. plebs.

Here's where I get accused of aimbotting a rev-gl on bunker.


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#34
Badtings

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The Gren is my main, and I do use it to 'sculpt' the battle. 

 

Push enemies into our 'strikers / finishers' and repulse them during retreats. It's great for that, and I've spent many hours on those skills.

 

That said, I do agree w/the OP, simply because my specific skill set has nearly ZERO impact on MMR. 

 

NOTE: I AM NOT COMPLAINING

 

The issue is; My MMR is still fairly low and I'm Upsetting NEW players (SEE NOOBS) because they aren't used to having their ass shelled by a vet.

 

Thus making THEIR experience less fun, and that's the LAST thing i want to do.

 

I want MORE PLAYERS to shell LATER once they've figured out how to repair.

 

So.. in conclusion, i've stopped playing my gren, so I don't bum out the newbs.

 

I'm not sure how the D E V s might incorporate 'supression' into the MMR, but it would be great if they did.

 

May your guns stay cool,

 

bt


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#35
DieselCat

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From your posts, it seems like you're playing Gren really passively from a distance and expecting to get as many points for harassing and lightly zoning the other team as someone would for straight-up killing them. I doubt any FPS game's scoring works like that, and like a lot of other people said what you're suggesting isn't really quantifiable in any meaningful way. It's basically free points for doing the main thing you're supposed to be doing, i.e. shooting at the enemy. 

 

Can you upload some footage of you using Rev Gren so I can see if you're making mistakes that'd keep you from doing well? It's a pretty difficult mech to learn since your prediction and positioning skills have to be on point beyond what's required for choices that rely on direct fire. If you aren't actively making an effort to push and put pressure on the enemies and are relying on your teammates to clean up everyone you dent then I can see why you'd think people aren't rewarded enough for playing the mech. 

 

It feels self-serving to link to myself (I'm not sure who else I could use off the top of my head since most older Twitch videos were deleted and Rev Gren gameplay vids are rare to begin with) in this discussion, but here's a video of me MVPing and leading in kills/KDR in a server with two other top-10 players and probably four or five additional people above 2300 MMR:

 

 

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Just curious...when you overheat,  your weapon cooldown seems so much faster than what I'm getting. Is there an internal that helps reduce the overheat recovery time ?..Can I ask what internals you use on your Grenadier ?

 

Nice video.

 

*+


Edited by DieselCat, 08 September 2015 - 09:32 AM.

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#36
DieselCat

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The Gren is my main, and I do use it to 'sculpt' the battle. 

 

Push enemies into our 'strikers / finishers' and repulse them during retreats. It's great for that, and I've spent many hours on those skills.

 

That said, I do agree w/the OP, simply because my specific skill set has nearly ZERO impact on MMR. 

 

NOTE: I AM NOT COMPLAINING

 

The issue is; My MMR is still fairly low and I'm Upsetting NEW players (SEE NOOBS) because they aren't used to having their ass shelled by a vet.

 

Thus making THEIR experience less fun, and that's the LAST thing i want to do.

 

I want MORE PLAYERS to shell LATER once they've figured out how to repair.

 

So.. in conclusion, i've stopped playing my gren, so I don't bum out the newbs.

 

I'm not sure how the D E V s might incorporate 'supression' into the MMR, but it would be great if they did.

 

May your guns stay cool,

 

bt

 

The only way " I " can see a way to gauge something as suggestive as this into a score is one's damage ratio. In this case the Grenadier would/should be dealing out more damage that taking in. If one's ratio is a positive, then maybe a minimum type score could be configured for suppression. But that still seems kind of vague to me and most people might not think fair from the viewpoint of the team.....but hey, I'd take all the points I can get. :teehee: 

 

*+   


  • Badtings likes this

Just Relax....and take life one game at a time....

Don't run to your death....walk

 

th_Duckman.jpg   th_82c0a97c-98de-4aac-be47-05e5e099be80.

 

*+

 


#37
JeffMagnum

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Just curious...when you overheat,  your weapon cooldown seems so much faster than what I'm getting. Is there an internal that helps reduce the overheat recovery time ?..Can I ask what internals you use on your Grenadier ?

 

Nice video.

 

*+

 

No, and I use Advanced Armor Fusor/Replenisher on that build. The overheat recovery time and the time for heat to return to zero from max are within a second or two of each other, but it's still usually better to let your weapons cool down unless you need an important shot to finish someone off. 


  • DieselCat likes this

d1eZeG3.png


#38
DieselCat

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No, and I use Advanced Armor Fusor/Replenisher on that build. The overheat recovery time and the time for heat to return to zero from max are within a second or two of each other, but it's still usually better to let your weapons cool down unless you need an important shot to finish someone off. 

 

Thought you had an Armor Fusor, but not sure what else.

 

Thxxx U kind Sir  :smile:

 

 

*+


Just Relax....and take life one game at a time....

Don't run to your death....walk

 

th_Duckman.jpg   th_82c0a97c-98de-4aac-be47-05e5e099be80.

 

*+

 


#39
Sylhiri

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Everytime Jeff presses spacebar, take a shot. Death in midair then you finish your drink.



#40
GalaxyRadio

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@Jeff,

 

so you are notaimbot?

 

Maybe this wasn't the best video to show how that mech works. I was expecting this gameplay from Mystic, too much selfdamage, bad positioning, CQC, going againts enemy alone separated from your team. Well, after the first half of the match it got better, maybe you just needed some time to get into the grenadiers zone :)

 

Galaxy Radio






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