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A Question To CB Veterans

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#81
Superkamikazee

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I would just like to point out to everyone in this thread who has commented about how much they loved the old builds of Hawken, especially Alpha to early OB, that most of the changes made were a direct result of the community you were all apart of and if my memory serves me (which it often does) many of you agreed to. Some examples of this would be the hud changes... oh how everyone complained about the hud being impractical and yet here I see many of the same people complaining that the hud is not immersive enough.

 

Anyway my point here is not to make you all seem/feel like hypocrites. I am trying to give us all some perspective. No matter what build we were in there were QUITE A FEW THINGS that many many players all agreed needed to be changed (not everyone agreed on how to go about that change) and then after their were many other people who complained about the change.

 

I am pretty convinced at this point that most of the community doesn't even know what it wants. No offense to anyone here, but that seems to be the trend over time.

 

EDIT: I want to add that I am not trying to single anyone out with this post its meant as more of a general comment on my experience having been here from week 2 of Alpha.

 

 

Gameplay mechanics aside, who wanted the weak audio we have now? And the down graded visuals and atmosphere in maps? Visuals I can see being a performance thing with the game being free to play, you want as many people as possible playing with an acceptable FPS, so maybe it's the right call. Though Unreal Tournament looks like it has the chops to cripple PC's and it's F2P, so not sure if that argument is valid in 2015.

 

And game play meta wise CapnJosh and company have some big decisions to make, whatever that decision is, it'd had better be the right one. Is Hawken going back to it's roots a bit, staying about the same, or getting faster more arena focused?


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#82
Odinous

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First found out and joined hawken in january 2013,with old interface,higher ttk,pre healer era,while all of those were great,the game has evolved,into a faster game.I miss the old cockpit(if only they had it as option for high end computers...)But maaaan...it still thrills me nowadays with great balanced sieges!!!The graphics and movement are lot better now,i will even say i like the existence of the AC cause this move opened more air movement in game,and even if annoying,a zerker gliding in your face shows how great work the previous devs made with movement and gameplay.I would choose to increase TTK a bit,the only thing i could wish from the new devs..And maybe some work on map scalling?we lost the feel that we are controlling a huge mech..


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#83
thirtysix

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Gameplay mechanics aside, who wanted the weak audio we have now? And the down graded visuals and atmosphere in maps? Visuals I can see being a performance thing with the game being free to play, you want as many people as possible playing with an acceptable FPS, so maybe it's the right call. Though Unreal Tournament looks like it has the chops to cripple PC's and it's F2P, so not sure if that argument is valid in 2015.

 

And game play meta wise CapnJosh and company have some big decisions to make, whatever that decision is, it'd had better be the right one. Is Hawken going back to it's roots a bit, staying about the same, or getting faster more arena focused?

Nail on the head...

What's going to make money long term, keep players playing. MWO sux but has dedicated players that SPEND money.

Hawken is BETTER than MWO everyday of the week but has player retention problems.

Business is business... make your money.


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#84
-Tj-

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Was CB more fun to play than the current version of Hawken or not? And why?

 

 

*OB vets (pre-Technician) are also welcome to express their opinion.

 

Yes and no.

 

There were a lot of things that needed polishing up in CB, but at the same time it was a hoot to play. The battles felt a lot more ground-based back then, and it was really fun to take the time to climb various structures in the middle of a match to try and gain a very small advantage. The current blockages on the maps as they are now feel really arbitrary in many spots, since they either block off areas that really shouldn't have been blocked in the first place (like that really odd spot near the upper area by the bridge in Origin), or they block off areas that would waste the time of whoever is climbing it (some high-up places are so open to fire that it's a waste of time trying to even get up there in the first place). I don't miss things like the stunlock or the super-ginormous EMP, or turrets blocking walking. I do miss the old cockpit and dirtier feel of the game. Also, maybe it's my imagination, but explosions and sounds seem to be much, much less immersive than they used to be. I LOVED the way being behind a wall muffled the sounds of things going on on the other side, and how detailed everything seemed to look. A couple of optimization passes later, the game seemed to look and feel like an earlier version of the game, as opposed to a newer version. What we have now isn't quite what attracted me to the game in the first place, and I really feel like the new devs should at least bring the audio thing back. I don't miss the invisible cars on some levels of detail, but really, the old game had a much better Hawken ambiance than the current build does. I miss all the detail, but I don't miss the frame rate problems they caused. When the wireframe mode was still something we could activate, I had a look at some of the meshes, and there was just so many little objects here and there that could have benefit from an optimization pass, as opposed to removing huge swaths of stuff (like spheres embedded in the Hawken virus in Origin... way too high poly; kind of an unfortunate side effect of using the kitbash method to build the maps).

 

That said, I don't really want to go back to the way the old game played, not completely anyway. There were a lot of balance changes made that improved the game. The game as it is now isn't 100% balanced, but it's a lot better than where it was back then. I'm all for new mechs, but I'm not really sure I like the Tech. Pred was a nice addition. Incin... debatable, but I like it (just needs some balance passes). The G2 stuff, yeah, they're cool. I like that we got them, just not necessarily fond of their implementation. I really feel like ALL mechs should have, at some point, a G2 available, with some kind of path leading to the option to purchase them. And given that they're fully-leveled at the time of purchase, unlike the other mechs, I've always thought there was a disconnect between myself and the G2s. I didn't grow with them, I just bought them. Like a rich person buying a car... and then storing it with the rest of his collection. Every other mech, I earned my way up, and I learned to love them.

 

So... yeah. CB was fun, but it had its problems. Current build is fun, but it also has its problems. At this point I'm just hoping they don't change things again, but I sure as heck wouldn't mind seeing some things go back to the older versions. :)


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#85
Retorrent

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I honestly miss the old cockpit design, it just felt like you were in a mech that was put together with a greasy war machine feel, after they changed it to what it is now it just lost a lot of that coolness. Plus back then we didn't have the air circus it is now. 



#86
Silverfire

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I'm sure many of us miss the old "Enemy Sighted" icon too. It was so immersive.

Edited by Silverfire, 01 April 2015 - 08:24 PM.

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#87
AsianJoyKiller

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I miss the old female voice.

#88
Houruck

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I'm sure many of us miss the old "Enemy Sighted" icon too. It was so immersive.

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#89
bacon_avenger

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Pretty much that.  Someone used to have a banner in their sig using it, wish I could find it again. :tongue:


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#90
AsianJoyKiller

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Pretty much that.  Someone used to have a banner in their sig using it, wish I could find it again. :tongue:

I wish I could see what you're writing, but I'm pretty much blind now.



#91
bink

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the cr-t was very good as were unlocks. real sense of mastery. 

 

i enjoy the tech the most these days. 



#92
nepacaka

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About CB3 gameplay:

 

- First variant of raider ability. (When raider just can shoot while he use boost)

Why: i know, Raider appear after CB but... because yolodrivers.

 

- Skill point three (a little RPG-element, i like it)

Why: I love RPG element in game. In my opinion it is also help keep the player in front of the screen long time, forcing him to leveling his character, and gain pleasure and the joy of complete leveling. You know, it is like a: "Woohoo! I did it!!!". It is nice.

 

- Fuel management. When dodge cost some Fuel.

Why: Just because. I doesn't love fuel-exploit. And even after several patches it is still not working correct and still exist. Free dodges only added problems in game

 

- Old "static" internals. Which not give you an extra fuel, when you get bullets in your face :D

Why: I don't love new internals cuz part of internals are useless, and other part gain mech a superior advantage, like 30% fuel-regen when you gain damage. or faster repair-charge consumptions, etc.

I don't know, it is better or not, but i love old internals system more.

 

- No Tech. If you mistake - you die, nobody help you. Plan your actions and positioning from start and be a man. don't cry.

Why: After the Tech is coming, Hawken just transformed into TeamFortress, i'm still waiting Hats for 100% similarities.

 

- Old score-table. With frag/death count. Not childish as we have now.

Why: It is really stupid now.

 

- Dynamic weapon spread. (when you shoot longer, weapon spread is higher)

Why: I was cool and fun, why not? also makes shooting more immersive and added some realistic sense.

 

- Old walking system. Where your "stun" when falling or change movement direction. Also, walking acceleration, which now it doesn't exist.

Why: i don't know why...more immersive, i suppose.

 

 

About Immersive:

 

- Closed-Beta 3 interface. (But Not alpha version interface.)

Why: Immersive

 

- No ugly maps with cheap, inappropriate design (ofcourse i mean, LostEco, Bunker, Wreckage, which design don't have nothing similar with the Hawken urban landscapes)

Why: Because nothing uniquess in Snow/Forest maps. it don't have a Hawken atmosphere. Every game have a snow-level. If i want Forest-Levels i just can play in MWO.

Devs need also create Magma-Level and obligatory Underwater-Level. (sarcasm)

 

- Man-pilot voice in the cockpit / on radio

Why: Because female-voice in mechs - it is a "Cliche" :turned:

 

- old sound and some animations from alpfa-stage (old Vulcan-D was perfect, it is look like real minigun)

Why: bzzzzz....ta-ta-ta-ta-ta-ta-ta-ta-ta-ta...

 

- old HellFire and TOW animations (more smooth than now)

Why: It was nice, why not?

 

- smoke. especially more darken smoke when you shooting. I mean bullet tracer.

Why: Because it was cool.

 

 

Fuzzy Bunny, i just love CB3.

 

I miss old time when Hawken was just a "uncommon mech game". With nice design and interest combat system. Slowing walking, Fast dodges, well... Now it is just parody on Unreal 3.

 

Also, after Ascensios redesign, Hawken starting look like all other First-Person-Shooters. It so shiny, No more dark, pessimistic and Military atmosphere. No more Green/Blue Filters and tonnes of Smoke.

It look like "Circus" now. Only bright colors with "rainbow mechs" in camo with faces, crabs, and other sh!t.

If i want play in something like this i just can play in TeamFortess.

 

...and yes. i'm always whining xD


Edited by nepacaka, 02 April 2015 - 03:11 AM.

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Kompotka 3000. 2D ha?ken game: https://community.pl...ve/?hl=kompotka

Interceptor, B-Class mech concept: https://community.pl...itdefence-mech/

Challenger, C-Class mech concept: https://community.pl...ccepted-thread/

G2-Brawler, C-class mech concept: https://community.pl...pacaka-is-here/

Kinetik, B-class mech concept: https://community.pl...ass-shotgunner/

Melter, A-class mech concept: https://community.pl...-class-support/


#93
Superkamikazee

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Fuzzy Bunny, i just love CB3.

 

I miss old time when Hawken was just a "uncommon mech game". With nice design and interest combat system. Slowing walking, Fast dodges, well... Now it is just parody on Unreal 3.

 

Also, after Ascensios redesign, Hawken starting look like all other First-Person-Shooters. It so shiny, No more dark, pessimistic and Military atmosphere. No more Green/Blue Filters and tonnes of Smoke.

It look like "Circus" now. Only bright colors with "rainbow mechs" in camo with faces, crabs, and other sh!t.

If i want play in something like this i just can play in TeamFortess.

 

...and yes. i'm always whining xD

 

^Pretty much.

 

The Hawken we have now is essentially what was launched on Steam and it tanked. Hawken had a huge spike of players upon Steam release due to being advertised on the Steam homepage for some time, but the decline in players was swift and immediate. At this point though I don't think ADH could have done anything. The player base that remained was / is the hard core Hawken fans, that to an extent will play it in any form it's in, myself included. But that doesn't mean I won't share where I feel Hawken should try to be gameplay wise. 


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#94
Leonhardt

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stuff

 

Agreed, but I was trying to point out that reminiscing about long forgotten builds may not be the best way to go about effecting positive changes to the current build.


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#95
Superkamikazee

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There's things from the old builds that worked, and things from the current build that work. I wouldn't so quuckly dismiss past builds.

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#96
defekt

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Agreed, but I was trying to point out that reminiscing about long forgotten builds may not be the best way to go about effecting positive changes to the current build.

Disagree.  ADH threw away many good ideas, not the least of which being rare and risky healing.


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#97
AsianJoyKiller

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Disagree.  ADH threw away many good ideas, not the least of which being rare and risky healing.

The annoying part, to me, was that they didn't even seem to do it intentionally. It seemed like they just kept adding more safe healing without thinking about how it would affect gameplay.

In fact, that seems to be how hey did many of their balance changes. Thinking about the element as if it existed in a vacuum, not considering how other things would interact with it.
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#98
Leonhardt

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Disagree.  ADH threw away many good ideas, not the least of which being rare and risky healing.

 

I am not disagreeing with that statement, but it has been brought up almost constantly since the tech was released. Has that done anything to change the current build? No. I am saying instead of sitting here talking about how hawken used to be we should be trying to apply those lessons to what we want instead of just putting out general statements about how nostalgic the game is for some of us.

 

Specific information regarding how and why these things cause problems in the current build are what is necessary not "the game no longer feels immersive enough" or "there is too much health available" because to someone who just acquired the game and probably has very little knowledge of how the game works on such an intimate level (no insult here just probable) the term "health" could be applied to a lot of different things ranging from the health of individual mechs all the way to health orbs themselves.


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#99
Beemann

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I am not disagreeing with that statement, but it has been brought up almost constantly since the tech was released. Has that done anything to change the current build? No. I am saying instead of sitting here talking about how hawken used to be we should be trying to apply those lessons to what we want instead of just putting out general statements about how nostalgic the game is for some of us.

Except the thread is specifically about examining mechanics as they were before and as they are now, and explaining why certain users feel said prior set was superior. The fact that it hasn't affected the current build is a result of ADH not listening to the portion of the community that complained about them, not a result of the futility of the conversation. Additionally, in making this post, you've proceeded to be even less productive than the people you critique

 

also Re: Your prior post

Many of us called out the changes before, during and after their implementation, and pointed out serious flaws with the design ideals they were introducing to the game.

Which I guess is a fancy way of not only pointing out that you're making weird generalizations (many in the community liked/called for changes, ergo everyone wanted the game we have now) but also to kinda have my "I told you so" moment :)

 

 



 

Specific information regarding how and why these things cause problems in the current build are what is necessary not "the game no longer feels immersive enough" or "there is too much health available" because to someone who just acquired the game and probably has very little knowledge of how the game works on such an intimate level (no insult here just probable) the term "health" could be applied to a lot of different things ranging from the health of individual mechs all the way to health orbs themselves.

There is information that can be gleaned from these comments by the people who need that info (devs, not necessarily new users). Not everyone is expected to have a keen knowledge of exactly what goes into aesthetic and gameplay design. Additionally, reasons are given as to why there is too much health, too little risk etc. and it's generally combinatorial rather than a single mechanic that could be easily tweaked. Hawken as a whole is based off of wildly varying design philosophies getting tangled up somewhere in the vicinity of the OB/Ascension era and remaining tangled until now. Many mechanics form a good foundation for a good MP game (multiple resources, extra movement options, weapon sets that force players to make strategic choices about positioning/movement/aim) but then there are mechanics that ignore or work against those. I think the main reason why the old guard (myself included) praises the older versions of Hawken (I go further back than CB) is because there was a greater sense of coherency at that point in time.

 

I could write an essay on every single portion of Hawken and why it went wrong (and I have done that) but I think the purpose of this thread was less 10 page dissertation and more quick summary, as is the norm with forum threads

 

Edit: As for my contribution, I'm pretty much on the same page as AJK (we had a lot of collab discussions and testing a long with the rest of the crew) but I'd like to add that there was a level of openness in early testing (at one point we actually had all the numbers in the game just sitting there) that slowly got closed off over time. The level of communication and honesty between devs and community pretty much directly correlated with how crappy the game, forums and quality of dev responses got


Edited by Beemann, 03 April 2015 - 02:38 PM.

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#100
irish_00

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I've just found some HWK's PA discussions summaries: http://steamcommunit...744859913238767

not sure if they are available at new forums.



#101
Superkamikazee

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I've just found some HWK's PA discussions summaries: http://steamcommunit...744859913238767
not sure if they are available at new forums.


So basically all the same concerns players have now. Great lol.

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#102
bacon_avenger

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I've just found some HWK's PA discussions summaries: http://steamcommunit...744859913238767

not sure if they are available at new forums.

Oh hi Irish, I didn't see you come in. :smile:

 

So basically all the same concerns players have now. Great lol.

Well, to be fair, that group and the discussions/streams from it were made during The Great Silence , and seeing how Reloaded has bought the IP, what, just about a single month ago, nothing has changed since then.  :smile:


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#103
defekt

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Beemann's back; that's a bit like feeling nostalgic for being clubbed half to death by a good book.  :thumbsup:


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#104
kasei

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I like the new HUD more. The old HUD was fantastic for immersion, but tedious for gameplay. For example, I enjoy the new large health bar more than the small numbers that were different for every mech.

I use C-Class mechs, so the movement acceleration and falling stun were frustrating at times, but manageable. Those things were what kept the pace of the game from flying away.

Needing to find a good spot to repair was a valuable piece of the gameplay that helped shaped matches. The tech and other forms of passive healing ruined that. I don't hate the implementation of the Tech, I hate its very concept.

Like others have said, there were many improvements made to the game, such as the siege ships not shooting players and the revision of the EMP. I'd argue that those felt more like fixes than gameplay decisions though.

I tend to not enjoy traditional FPS, and Hawken wasn't a traditional FPS. The more it became like one, the less I enjoyed it. I’m not that good of a player, but in the old Hawken I was still able to have fun and support my team. Nowadays, I’d rather just play co-op (no tech, even teams, no leavers, mixture of mechs). I'm curious and pessimistic about where Reloaded Games wants to take the game.

Edited by kasei, 04 April 2015 - 06:49 AM.

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#105
Jelooboi

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Do you consider CoD a military simulator?

Burnout a driving simulator?

Minecraft a survival simulator?

Ostensibly, yes.

Let's not get specific about it. I said simulator because I didn't want to use game that's all the meaning I have behind it. 






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