Stupid question time: burst vs. sustained
#1
Posted 27 March 2015 - 10:40 PM
#2
Posted 27 March 2015 - 10:43 PM
Depends on what you're doing and the situation. Also what map you're on. Obviously burst weapons are better when you're playing around corners and in close quarters, whereas sustain is better in open areas. Also the sustain weapons do have more DPS in comparison which is probably one of the reason why people are saying it. Heat cannon is still ridiculously good.
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#3
Posted 27 March 2015 - 10:51 PM
#4
Posted 27 March 2015 - 10:59 PM
Various reasons.
Burst weapons got nerfed over time. And sustained got buffed over time. Weapon spread has been removed. Overheating is irrelevant. Mechs fly like bees around and over your head. Abilities of the berzerker and grenadier that add major dmg boost, and the assault's that allows for even longer shooting.
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#5
Posted 28 March 2015 - 12:14 AM
Sustained, in the current version/meta, sustained. No Tradeoffs and nothing to regret. Your Burst potential might be lower but one second of sustained fire equals an average burst attack.
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#6
Posted 28 March 2015 - 03:16 AM
Maps. Out in the open sustain should win, and it does; whilst hugging cover burst should win, and it broadly does. (Perhaps there is a case for very slightly upping burst damage and reducing DPS.)
I've not played for a very long time but there have been no new maps since I last played. I'd say that sustain is popular not because it's too strong but instead because the maps are largely sustain-friendly.
#7
Posted 28 March 2015 - 10:37 AM
did they change it so that burst weapons actually do less sustained damage than sustain weapons? (like it should be)
when i stopped playing the flak out sustained all the sustain weapons
the people crying about sustain have never fought a competent raider/scout - but yes, sustain is strong on open maps like eco (duh because they're longer sight ranges, cmon people) - sorry as a long time sustained player this topic makes me cranky
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#8
Posted 28 March 2015 - 11:23 AM
#9
Posted 28 March 2015 - 02:36 PM
#10
Posted 28 March 2015 - 02:42 PM
They double buffed sustain (triple if you count air combat against some weapons) so....
Edited by Sylhiri, 28 March 2015 - 02:42 PM.
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#11
Posted 28 March 2015 - 02:47 PM

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#12
Posted 29 March 2015 - 12:36 PM
#13
Posted 29 March 2015 - 12:49 PM
I can add this : sutsained weaps (vulcan in particular) are most sensitive to latency.
It has to be pretty damn bad to effect it much since most of them are hitscan.
#14
Posted 01 April 2015 - 11:42 PM
Personally I like sustained. Granted the only burst mech I have is the Raider, and due to its range I find myself not doing too well in sustained combat due to overheating. I know it's good for corners but I've yet to have been in an optimal situation involving that.
#15
Posted 01 April 2015 - 11:53 PM
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#16
Posted 02 April 2015 - 04:04 AM
The Mini Flak on the Scout does more sustained and burst dps(125 per sec + 150 TOW) than any other mechs.
#17
Posted 02 April 2015 - 04:44 AM
In the current meta sustained is king, but burst still has a powerful presence. Burst when used correctly can take large chunks of hp away quickly and effectively, which is the exact meta of burst. Sustained is more of that slow throbbing pain, where as burst can be thought of as those sharp sudden instances of intense pain. Most burst needs to be played in a flighty manner in order to win out against sustained.
#18
Posted 02 April 2015 - 06:50 AM
yea i think its in a really good spot right now balance wise. there used to be a ton of discussion about this because sustained used to be a joke compared to the burst weapons but now it feels like anyone weapon can win in a fight is just comes down to the better pilot.
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#19
Posted 02 April 2015 - 10:55 AM
yea i think its in a really good spot right now balance wise. there used to be a ton of discussion about this because sustained used to be a joke compared to the burst weapons but now it feels like anyone weapon can win in a fight is just comes down to the better pilot.
Sustain was a joke, then they buffed the damage. Then they lowered mech health. Then they added Air Compressors that allowed flying over walls viable. I think ADH missed the mark again.
If maps added more viable cover to replace the cover it lost from air combat then I can see them being equal.
Edited by Sylhiri, 02 April 2015 - 10:56 AM.
#20
Posted 02 April 2015 - 11:25 AM
Then they added Air Compressors that allowed flying over walls viable.
I'm not sure I follow this logic. You can hop a wall with or without air compressor.
Also, wouldn't lowering mech health be a buff to burst? I would think that it would make any corner play much more lethal and much less forgiving.
#21
Posted 02 April 2015 - 11:44 AM
I'm not sure I follow this logic. You can hop a wall with or without air compressor.
Also, wouldn't lowering mech health be a buff to burst? I would think that it would make any corner play much more lethal and much less forgiving.
You can hop or hover over a wall but you can dodge in the air now which eliminates the risk/reward from before. This allows you to bypass much of the cover in maps making it like having no cover which turns an encounter into a DPS race. Burst weapons have poor DPS (Flak Cannon has pretty good DPS for a burst weapon but will still lose the race) so without cover you have no corner play.
Sustain vs Sustain doesn't matter since both of you can continually fire, however if the opponent has higher health then you they will win (Zerker might be able to win against a higher health opponent due to his damage increasing ability).
Burst vs Burst is the same thing, depending on how much DPS and health the opponent has.
Burst vs Sustain will lose the DPS race and have no chance to win if the opponent has the higher health advantage.
The only way to negate the health advantage is to orblord. Shields only reset the battle. Lowering the TTK helps burst only in areas that has cover that extends high enough to make air combat not viable.
#22
Posted 02 April 2015 - 12:43 PM
You can hop or hover over a wall but you can dodge in the air now which eliminates the risk/reward from before. This allows you to bypass much of the cover in maps making it like having no cover which turns an encounter into a DPS race. Burst weapons have poor DPS (Flak Cannon has pretty good DPS for a burst weapon but will still lose the race) so without cover you have no corner play.
Sustain vs Sustain doesn't matter since both of you can continually fire, however if the opponent has higher health then you they will win (Zerker might be able to win against a higher health opponent due to his damage increasing ability).
Burst vs Burst is the same thing, depending on how much DPS and health the opponent has.
Burst vs Sustain will lose the DPS race and have no chance to win if the opponent has the higher health advantage.
The only way to negate the health advantage is to orblord. Shields only reset the battle. Lowering the TTK helps burst only in areas that has cover that extends high enough to make air combat not viable.
What your missing about burst is that it's all in the timing. Screw up your timing, yeah your gonna loose with AC or no AC no timing, your dead. Burst is all about getting the shots in when it counts. I've been in many Burst v Sustained senarios and usually come out the winner from it, since I time my shots, and not panic and fire all willy nilly, sure the other guy might be able to spam his sustained for awhile. But as long as you can dodge and keep out of LoS of that sustained they'll start to have heat problems. Which in turn is when you can lay down the law with burst and quickly turn the fight into your favor, sustained requires accuracy even more so then burst since the majority of burst is either AoE or conical in effect accuracy tends to be a little more forgiving in that camp. If you can't train your gun on the target, your DPS is wasted as well as your heat pool leaving you defenseless while your opponent has a fresh n' empty heat pool to being their assault on you. It's only when the two opponents are equally skilled that it becomes an arms race, until that happens it's a skill race.
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#23
Posted 02 April 2015 - 05:50 PM
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#24
Posted 03 April 2015 - 02:09 AM
Sustain has the edge in the open or in places that have cover that's scalable. Burst is better at corner poking, as long as you have a clear idea of where to go to keep that poking going without finding yourself stuck in a corner or in the open.
Burst is also good with players that have good movements since you can dance around and burst in the small intervals between your movement without losing dps compared to a sustain mech that would do the same. You'll notice this with people playing AR infil as opposed to heat or eoc infil, the way you position yourself and move during a fight is not the same.
There's a reason the frontline mechs in a team are usually sustain (mainly Assault and heavies, FLAK is close enough to a sustain weapon to consider the Brawler a sustain-ish mech more than a burst one in it's role, especially given the slow speed), since they benefit from being in the open to start an engagement, while the burst mechs are better at trying to get the jump on somebody and flanking.
Edited by n3onfx, 03 April 2015 - 02:10 AM.
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#25
Posted 03 April 2015 - 05:51 AM
One players ping vs. another players ping will also play a role in the observation of "burst vs. sustained" effectiveness.
When you have a really low ping/fast connection to the server, and your opponent has a really high ping/slow connection to the server, chances are pretty good that the server will register hit detection less accurately. That means that fewer of what you see as direct hits will register on your opponents end because their local client is not keeping up.
So, if you are a low ping player using burst, it will be more obvious that fewer of your hits actually register on your opponents health bar. With a sustained weapon, there are more shots being fired and hit-scan (in general) will appear to be registering more accurately (even if you are still missing every third round fired, the effect is less noticeable because their health bar still moves).
To be serious for a moment this is just a joke
#26
Posted 03 April 2015 - 06:59 AM
One players ping vs. another players ping will also play a role in the observation of "burst vs. sustained" effectiveness.
When you have a really low ping/fast connection to the server, and your opponent has a really high ping/slow connection to the server, chances are pretty good that the server will register hit detection less accurately. That means that fewer of what you see as direct hits will register on your opponents end because their local client is not keeping up.
So, if you are a low ping player using burst, it will be more obvious that fewer of your hits actually register on your opponents health bar. With a sustained weapon, there are more shots being fired and hit-scan (in general) will appear to be registering more accurately (even if you are still missing every third round fired, the effect is less noticeable because their health bar still moves).
I'm not certian how hit registry works, but I don't think it matters what your opponent's ping or client is doing.
Example one, with low ping using the slug rifle + ke-sabot when I shoot a high-ping player travelling around a corner and kill them before they can reach cover, I occasionally get accused of hitting them through walls (I've been on the receiving end of this too). If hit detection was dependent on my opponent's client, then wouldn't it register as a miss due to intervening cover?
Example two, when I'm suffering from lag spikes sometimes the entire game freezes (people continue to move in the direction they were last travelling, I can move but am unable to shoot), and sometimes by the time it unfreezes I'm instantly dead. If hit detection depended on my local client keeping up, then I should have still been alive.
#27
Posted 03 April 2015 - 08:09 AM
...
With a sustained weapon, there are more shots being fired and hit-scan (in general) will appear to be registering more accurately (even if you are still missing every third round fired, the effect is less noticeable because their health bar still moves).
I experimented exactly the opposite thing of what you said with vulcan. I dont give a fuzzy bunny of hitscan thing or whatever. I'm an EU player and on US servers (twice the ping (60 -> 120) my dps is so bad comparing to EU that i play over there only in the last ressort.
Maybe it's a delay of the start of firing more than the shots themselves, but i'm sure : vulcan sucks at high ping.
Edited by FRX23, 03 April 2015 - 08:09 AM.
#28
Posted 03 April 2015 - 08:17 AM
Zomg hestoned your back <3yea i think its in a really good spot right now balance wise. there used to be a ton of discussion about this because sustained used to be a joke compared to the burst weapons but now it feels like anyone weapon can win in a fight is just comes down to the better pilot.
America
Edited by m0bieduck, 03 April 2015 - 08:18 AM.
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#29
Posted 03 April 2015 - 01:44 PM
did they change it so that burst weapons actually do less sustained damage than sustain weapons? (like it should be)
when i stopped playing the flak out sustained all the sustain weapons
the people crying about sustain have never fought a competent raider/scout - but yes, sustain is strong on open maps like eco (duh because they're longer sight ranges, cmon people) - sorry as a long time sustained player this topic makes me cranky
The Flak still has a ridiculous high dps but most burst weapons like t32 eoc and breacher do not.
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#30
Posted 03 April 2015 - 02:26 PM
The Flak still has a ridiculous high dps but most burst weapons like t32 eoc and breacher do not.
T32 has a higher DPS than Flak uncharged. It has about the same DPS as flak if you charge it every shot.
#31
Posted 03 April 2015 - 07:19 PM
The "balance" depends on your control factors, if your teams are even in skill and mech composition, it could be said that sustain and burst are balanced. However in a 6v6 match Team A (Sustained) vs Team B (Burst), 'Team A' imo has a large advantage. 'Team A' can determine the the distance they engage at, whilst Team B must cross neutral territory to gain their advantage. Even on Maps like wreckage, which are typically close quarters style matches, 'Team B' would still be a solid disadvantage. Not only that but mechs such as the zerker, assault, minflak-scout have a 'TOW' rocket which still gives you really high burst potential with the option to sustain.
Lets say you match two evenly skilled pilots, Assault vs Raider, the Assault will be at an advantage at almost any distance. The MIRV has a 2.75sec CD and the TOW has a 1.5sec CD, so the Assault can almost TOW you twice for one Raider MIRV. So the only saving grace for a Raider in a 1v1 here is 'Blitz' depending on how well you use this ability determines how you will fair in that fight. Any effort less than average will likely result in the Assault winning, it almost always comes down to how much damage you can mitigate/dodge before you close with them. If you play Reflak Raider against an assault 1v1 your chances are moderately higher but you're still at a disadvantage, one wrong move or missed shot can seal your fate.
In conclusion the sustain is 'Low Risk, High Reward' vs the same class burst (eg. Zerk vs Flak scout, Assault vs Raider, Vulcan Brawler vs Flak Brawler). SOOOO in team games you usually want to look for the counters... If the enemy team is running 2 assaults, 2 zerkers, incinerator, vulcan grenadier, I'd suggest mirroring that comp because no amount of burst will help you.
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Edit: Keep in mind the Zerk and Gren also have super damage abilities which make the sustain much harder to deal with from a burst pov.
Edited by LoC_TR, 03 April 2015 - 07:26 PM.
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#32
Posted 03 April 2015 - 08:06 PM
Ok the main difference is simple Burst is king if you play peek a boo and practice corner play. the advantage is you can jump out drop all you damage doge back where you are safe. An example EOC WEAPONS
Sustained fire weapons are weapons that you have to keep a line of sight on while you fire which means you are directly open to atack from the person you are hitting. An example Vulcan
Wich is better Depends on play style and how you use both ... but I would say it is better to have a mix on your team.
I WANT TO DRIVE SOMETHING HOME ...... even people that main one mech ... play others. No mech is ideal for every situation. If your team is loosing the best tactic is to switch mechs to ADAPT to the situation.
I play a lot of support so my kd is fuzzy bunny because I over extend a lot to save others on my team. several support mechs will not get a great score point wise but make all the difference in breaking up death balls and adding chaos to the battle field. Grenadier and rocketeer are prime examples of this.
Edited by Source_Mystic, 17 April 2015 - 12:09 PM.
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#33
Posted 03 April 2015 - 11:50 PM
T32 has a higher DPS than Flak uncharged. It has about the same DPS as flak if you charge it every shot.
Oh really? Well I don't use Flak cannons ... NERF T32 BOLT! :D
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#34
Posted 04 April 2015 - 12:59 AM
T32 has a higher DPS than Flak uncharged. It has about the same DPS as flak if you charge it every shot.
Did someone do the testing? I can't find the dps tables that existed before, I'm surprised to hear this because it really doesn't feel that way. Maybe it's because since the FLAK doesn't need to be charged the first shot will always be the maximum damage you can output with it at that distance. Not needing to charge it also means that you fire it directly out of a boost and overall output more damage than someone with t32 that wants to play the boost/dodging game as well.
I'm pretty sure if you put a t32 on a Scout it would lose against a FLAK Scout because of this.
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#35
Posted 04 April 2015 - 09:17 AM
Personalty I hate flack weapons T32 is my most hated weapon in the game. Why are they bad ? No I just am not a first line up in front kind of player I like siting in a mid or long range position watching my radar and strategically doing things that aid my team. Burst is more suited to this so I gravitate towards that. If i am going scout I am going heat scout again that is my style of play. If it has the option to have eoc that is what I take. I prefer burst damage to sustained. I am not Rambo I am the guy that sneks up on you while you are distracted and unloads on you before you know what happened then I am gone. I play more like a ninja than a war machine. but that is what is great about this game. you can play your way. Offensive defensive or supportive. it is all good again I find a mix of different weapons and play styles in a team is good. There is no best weapon or mech. It is what you play and how you play it.
Edited by Source_Mystic, 17 April 2015 - 12:12 PM.
#36
Posted 04 April 2015 - 10:30 AM
Lets say you match two evenly skilled pilots, Assault vs Raider, the Assault will be at an advantage at almost any distance. The MIRV has a 2.75sec CD and the TOW has a 1.5sec CD, so the Assault can almost TOW you twice for one Raider MIRV. So the only saving grace for a Raider in a 1v1 here is 'Blitz' depending on how well you use this ability determines how you will fair in that fight. Any effort less than average will likely result in the Assault winning, it almost always comes down to how much damage you can mitigate/dodge before you close with them. If you play Reflak Raider against an assault 1v1 your chances are moderately higher but you're still at a disadvantage, one wrong move or missed shot can seal your fate.
If the Raider is letting the Assault get two TOWs off for each of his MIRVs, it means he's trying to play the Raider as a sustained mech.
#37
Posted 04 April 2015 - 02:04 PM
If the Raider is letting the Assault get two TOWs off for each of his MIRVs, it means he's trying to play the Raider as a sustained mech.
Uhh what? No.. What If that raider just didn't shoot at all and blitzed up to his face and bursted him once with a full MIRV/t32? I'm not sure what or why you're arguing this.. Enlighten me.
#38
Posted 04 April 2015 - 02:07 PM
Did someone do the testing? I can't find the dps tables that existed before
https://docs.google....t#gid=416460446
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#39
Posted 06 April 2015 - 03:05 AM
I dunno how good you are at aiming, but I feel like I don't see enough emphasis on the number of hits. I feel sustained weak against average/good A-class players who know how to take cover efficiently (even though it's very punishing if you don't), its quite efficient against C-class but it seem that they have enough HP to compensate, so when I think of it maybe B-class are the "weakest".
#40
Posted 07 April 2015 - 01:29 PM
does anyone have a video to show sustained vs burst ? (vulcan / flak brawler ?)
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