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Dev Update July 16

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#41
hellc9943

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Nah. It's what we always wanted.


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#42
Hyginos

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Patch Notes have been posted, here's a carbon-copy of them for interested parties

 

Seeker XT
-??Heat per shot increased from 2.34 to 2.65
-??Damage per shot decreased from 42 to 40

Nief
-??Armor decreased from 350 to 335

G2 Nief
-??Armor decreased from 375 to 360

 

Hmmm. Seeker XT is still 50% better damage per heat than regular seeker and G2 Nief still has more HP that the G1 Nief that is actually available in game.

 

I'm thinking that Nief will suffer from the same problem as rocky, in that because it has very low risk/mechanical requirement, if it's combat effectiveness isn't inversely proportional to the skill of the target it will be a problem for all but the highest skill players.

 

In other words RLD has to decide if they want it to be OK against the general populace and trash against high skill players or if they want it to be OK against high skill players and irritatingly powerful against the general populace. I submit that this is inherent to the aim assisting properties of the seekers that reward OK aim and excellent aim equally.


Edited by Hyginos, 20 July 2016 - 12:00 PM.

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#43
Call_Me_Ishmael

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Hmmm. Seeker XT is still 50% better damage per heat than regular seeker and G2 Nief still has more HP that the G1 Nief that is actually available in game.

 

I'm thinking that Nief will suffer from the same problem as rocky, in that because it has very low risk/mechanical requirement, if it's combat effectiveness isn't inversely proportional to the skill of the target it will be a problem for all but the highest skill players.

 

In other words RLD has to decide if they want it to be OK against the general populace and trash against high skill players or if they want it to be OK against high skill players and irritatingly powerful against the general populace. I submit that this is inherent to the aim assisting properties of the seekers that reward OK aim and excellent aim equally.

 

Creating a mechanic which rewards sloppy aim?  It will be abused by the good player who learns the mechanic.

 

Improving the rocket track proportional to the MMR or pilot level of the target?  Aim-assist.  Maybe preferable.


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#44
StubbornPuppet

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Hmmm. Seeker XT is still 50% better damage per heat than regular seeker and G2 Nief still has more HP that the G1 Nief that is actually available in game.

 

I'm thinking that Nief will suffer from the same problem as rocky, in that because it has very low risk/mechanical requirement, if it's combat effectiveness isn't inversely proportional to the skill of the target it will be a problem for all but the highest skill players.

 

In other words RLD has to decide if they want it to be OK against the general populace and trash against high skill players or if they want it to be OK against high skill players and irritatingly powerful against the general populace. I submit that this is inherent to the aim assisting properties of the seekers that reward OK aim and excellent aim equally.

 

^I think the biggest problem with the Nief is that it has been given 2 of a weapon that was never, ever intended to be doubled up.

 

1 Seeker gun is fine (in fact a little underpowered) because it is paired naturally with a weapon which has a slow reload time, has slow moving projectiles and even gives enemies a warning that your attack is coming.  The Rocketeer works (mostly) because it's underpowered weapons are countered by it's high armor and ability to keep opponents at a distance... but it is slow moving and has to be very worried about that lack of mobility as enemies get close.  In fact, the Rocky was left in a bad place by Adhesive just as they went into "The Great Silence" and then dissolved - They had just finished "a significant nerf to the air speed and tracking speed of the Seekers and Hellfires to see what impact that has, then slowly bring the speed and tracking of both back up until we find the 'sweet spot'."  But, I digress.

 

The Nief however, is a high mobility mech with 2 of the Seekers.  High mobility mechs are supposed to be harder to aim with... and yet the Nief has 2 of a weapon that was meant to compensate for poor mobility by using a small degree of tracking.  And they made it's special ability to basically double the rate of fire for just long enough to give it a guarantee of fully depleting the entire health pool of a C-Class in about 3 seconds.

 

I just don't see what part of that isn't entirely wrong.


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#45
BlackWarGreymon

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Their inexperienced play-testers no-doubt loved having what is basically an aimbot weapon set up on a fast moving mech, it probably felt great compared to conventional mechs ( shooting and moving is hard, don't you know, which would explain a lot but I also digress... ), so they said 'heck yeah, give us TWO aimbot guns, and make them 50% more powerful than the C class version of that weapon'.

 

I'm not against dual-wielding mechs, but it should be done in a sensible and balanced way...


Edited by BlackWarGreymon, 20 July 2016 - 06:12 PM.

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#46
CounterlogicMan

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CZero, please hear the pleas of the community! Return the grenade launcher to the Grenadier! Return the Tow to the Assault! :smile: 
The viability of dual primary mechs past a certain MMR range is questionable at best.
:smile:

 

Actually the new assault has some pretty crazy good DPS. Have had a lot of success with it. As for the Grenadier it needs a little bit of a buff to its weapons outside of turret mode. Also I think the snipers need a slight buff. Very glad Nief is getting nerfed, that one was really needed.

 

As for giving it the grenade launcher back? Or giving the assault its Tow back?  *yawn* boring. Would appreciate it if we could get more mechs that don't have GL and Tow.


Edited by CounterlogicMan, 20 July 2016 - 06:40 PM.

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#47
Hyginos

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As for giving it the grenade launcher back? Or giving the assault its Tow back?  *yawn* boring. Would appreciate it if we could get more mechs that don't have GL and Tow.

 

I agree we have more than enough tow/GL mechs, but double this double that to me comes across as a bit, I dunno, half-assed?


Edited by Hyginos, 20 July 2016 - 06:50 PM.

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#48
CounterlogicMan

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I agree we have more than enough tow/GL mechs, but double this double that to me comes across as a bit, I dunno, half-assed?

I agree to an extent. Having double homing rocket arms is a ton of fun. Having double grenade chucking arms I think embodies what the Grenadiers role is. Same with the Assault. What is cooler than chain gun arms? What better mech to put them on than the one that is meant to get in your face and shred you to pieces? The Charge is also a lot of fun and the dual mini flaks force you to play very differently than a scout with mini flak, or flak, would. 

 

That being said, I hope we aren't going to get dual AR mech, dual SMC mech, dual <insert weapon we, and most other FPS games, already have> mech, etc. The one exception being the dual EOC CIV mech we are confirmed getting. That to me, is because the EOC is one of the few truly unique weapons in Hawken. I am also very biased towards it. 


Edited by CounterlogicMan, 20 July 2016 - 07:04 PM.

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#49
6ixxer

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I'm thinking that Nief will suffer from the same problem as rocky, in that because it has very low risk/mechanical requirement, if it's combat effectiveness isn't inversely proportional to the skill of the target it will be a problem for all but the highest skill players.

 

In other words RLD has to decide if they want it to be OK against the general populace and trash against high skill players ...

 

IMO it must be this.

 

There needs to be mechs that only noobs benefit from in low tier matches. I have said before, experiences players will have all the mechs and follow the meta. They just won't use the nief as it is statistically worse than charge/scout, etc. Thats not a bad thing. Not all mechs need to compete in comp matches. You will never have a good compromise between competitiveness in comp and usability by fresh pilots. Elite Milge who think everything must be balanced to top tier competetive play are putting their own 1% need above the new player experience.

 

New pilots on controllers probably need this mech as a crutch as the game itself doesn't have aim assist. Those players should not play high tier, hence nief should not be seen in high tier, so why balance it there?



#50
6ixxer

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That being said, I hope we aren't going to get dual AR mech, dual SMC mech, dual <insert weapon we, and most other FPS games, already have> mech, etc. The one exception being the dual EOC CIV mech we are confirmed getting. That to me, is because the EOC is one of the few truly unique weapons in Hawken. I am also very biased towards it. 

 

Has anyone hears about dual Heat mech? I'm hanging out for that.

Chargeable, projectile (not hitscan), not airburst-able, bad for self damage. 

Sounds like fun :)

 

HC is as unique as seeker, EOC


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#51
Hyginos

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I agree to an extent. Having double homing rocket arms is a ton of fun. Having double grenade chucking arms I think embodies what the Grenadiers role is. Same with the Assault. What is cooler than chain gun arms? What better mech to put them on than the one that is meant to get in your face and shred you to pieces? The Charge is also a lot of fun and the dual mini flaks force you to play very differently than a scout with mini flak, or flak, would.

 

I guess my problem with it is that the novelty of ZOMG DUBBLE CHAINGUNZ wears of quickly and you are left with really shallow gameplay. The gameplay depth of nief/charge/assault right now pretty much comes from the fact that they interact with mechs that have actual mechanics to them other than holding your crosshair over the target.


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#52
KejiGoto

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I guess my problem with it is that the novelty of ZOMG DUBBLE CHAINGUNZ wears of quickly and you are left with really shallow gameplay. The gameplay depth of nief/charge/assault right now pretty much comes from the fact that they interact with mechs that have actual mechanics to them other than holding your crosshair over the target.

 

You've also got a few years of experience and hundreds of hours inside the mechs instead of a couple of months and a few dozen hours playing against a handful of people in a non-competitive environment.

 

So of course individuals like yourself are going to see through the novelty of pairing up weapons like this a lot faster than those who just happened into Hawken with in the last year and have no real experience with the game.



#53
CraftyDus

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I am saddened by the reminder.
Bring back the old Grenadier, I beg.

 

They brought back the old grenadier's turret mode, with a different mobility scheme.

Dual Rev Gl's is completely awesome to play.

The current iteration has a very slow rate of fire and dps, unless in the new stationary turret mode where you have no time limit to the damage buff.

If the Grenadier accounts for less than 1.8% of your entire Hawken kills.

Then what you like about Hawken is not adversely affected whatsoever by the new dual rev gl grenadier.

You aren't missing anything here. Just like the flak scout.


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#54
ARCH3TYP3

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My experience with dual wielding primary mechs starts and ends with G2 Assault. Both playing it and against it.
I found unlocking it to be fun; a novelty that was new and different.
As for viability, I still respectfully think a strong argument can be made against its viability past a certain skill level. Nothing seems to out-DPS it out in the open, but more skilled players are not really caught out in the open. They also realize that its design encourages yolo diving and feeding...and make comments to that effect.

It cannot compete with a comparably skilled pilot with a burst secondary, who will engage in one volley of corner play (2 for an A mech) and casually move in to finish it off.
I understand reloaded's desire to establish more well-defined mech roles, but in reality, the indelible and esoteric methodology of higher tier Hawken gameplay is defined by the players, not by the mech guide or developers. The current PC mech builds allow for this.
I notice most gifted players use the Predator and Scout as skirmishers; NOT for their intended purposes of assassination, according to the mech guide.
The same could be said of most other mechs.
I am not disagreeing that new content can be good and, seems fun on the consoles.
I suppose I am just curious as to your opinions on how dual primaries and stricter roles will translate over to the PC side.
As for Grenade launcher and TOW, I guess I feel that having them as secondaries on Grenadier and Assault defined them as 2 of the funnest mechs for me.
Sure, Grenadier was always defined as "area denial" in the mech guide, but the nade launcher secondary also extended its role just enough to be able to fend for itself in a 1v1. It would seem that further limiting it to banging choke points with dual rev gls is less fun because that is so extremely situational.
And as for Assault, I just love it the way it is. For me, Hawken IS The ASSAULT. *Shrug*
I do love Hawken and am hoping for the best.
My voiced concerns are well intended.

Edited by ARCH3TYP3, 21 July 2016 - 05:25 AM.

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#55
CraftyDus

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My experience...
 

 

Like I said, your experience with the rev gl is very limited.

But I said that in the context of you lamenting the death of it.

I would respectfully maintain that you aren't missing the rev gl gren anymore than you would miss the death of the flak scout, when you were complaining about the charge in previous threads.

I would suggest it too early for you to lament these things when you haven't played the new dual rev gl grenadier or the charge much or perhaps, at all.

 

 but in reality, the indelible and esoteric methodology of higher tier....is defined by players

 

Between you and me, I'll be the judge of all that.

 

 

 Predator NOT for their intended purposes of assassination, according to the mech guide.
 

 

I played Predator for RATA in season 2 of TPG.

Calling it's intended purpose as assassination is perfectly reasonable regardless of "tier", but also specifically at the highest tier play.

I stopped playing it so much back when I realized that the DM junkies crew on SSSDM panned my success in Pred as DM cheese in early 2015.

They were right to do so.

 

 

I suppose I am just curious as to your opinions on how dual primaries and stricter roles will translate over to the PC side.

 

My opinion is that reloaded is doing a great deal to add new exciting mech combinations in the spirit of ADH's foray into their version of "g2" mechs the g2 assault and the g2 raider.

My observation of the console build so far (I've played an xbox account through to level 23 or so) is that they are doing great work on balance issues that always came with new mech introductions back during ADH's tenure, in a way that mitigates their negative impacts to a great degree once introduced to the PC build.

It's actually very clever.

 

I would use the Neif hotfix on xbox yesterday as an indication that they are able to quickly adjust for game balance with new content inroductions very quickly.

They are looking very good, if you are being fair.

 

My opinion on how these dual primary mechs will affect pc build is they will add a great variety to a fine game.

Certainly as much, if not more so as throwing a tow launcher on nearly everything for the longest time "back in the day".

I would say that was uninspired.

 

As far as your "stricter roles" thing goes.

My opinion is that pigeon holes and stereotypes are for pedants.

My opinion is that a mech's potential in terms of "role" is a demand more of the player in any given scenario than the mech type itself.

ESPECIALLY with new mech combinations. This takes player communities sometime to hash out.

It was almost 3 months before the hawken community came to terms with what was possible forthe Predator after it's release.

 

 It would seem that further limiting it to banging choke points.......
 

 

If you felt in your very limited experience with a rev gl grenadier that it was in any way "limited to banging choke points", then you never saw it's true potential.

I can tell you that's a wrong estimation of it's limitations.

My opinion of players that only would use the rev gl grenadier on Uptown because of this attitude towards it is that

They just don't get it.

I was accused of aimbotting in a rev gl grenadier on the most open map in the game, Bunker, by one of the most notorious cheaters of all time.

I have enjoyed years of confrontations with air compressor zerkers and their ilk trying desperately to avoid me hitting them square in their forehead with revolver primary nades.

I would suggest not hobbling what a mech is capable of, with a theory of it's constraints that are demonstrably false.

 

And as for Assault, I just love it the way it is

 

There will be no shortage of your thermometer in the new build I can assure you

 

I do love Hawken and am hoping for the best.
My voiced concerns are well intended.

 

Hawken is getting better. Reloaded is doing great work.

 

While I can understand that some feel powerless in the changes of the game that affords a portion of their identity to them.

 

Reloaded has made it clear in the past, and demonstrates currently that they are willing to take the time to listen and apply much of what older players contribute in the way of player experience and knowledge sourced in actual playtime.

 

I think they are serving the game well. The new build is still Hawken through and through.

It will continue to be so, and for many new audiences.

While issues will of course come up with the introduction of new powerful weapons and combinations.

I'm delighted they are breaking eggs and making omelettes.


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#56
MomOw

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I played in "EU-BOTSTDM-668623" and noticed that they added the small facility (training TDM) to the map rotation

 

http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/263842459623373753/368F1AB9FF599732F339EB403AA17CA52EEF7CB5/


Edited by MomOw, 21 July 2016 - 07:52 AM.

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#57
ARCH3TYP3

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Like I said, your experience with the rev gl is very limited.
But I said that in the context of you lamenting the death of it.
I would respectfully maintain that you aren't missing the rev gl gren anymore than you would miss the death of the flak scout, when you were complaining about the charge in previous threads.

I do not recall complaining about the charge. Forgive me if it sounded that way. I do recall inquiring as to its ability to stagger dual mini flaks out of sync..I assure you I would like to avoid sounding like a complainer.

I would suggest it too early for you to lament these things when you haven't played the new dual rev gl grenadier or the charge much or perhaps, at all.

Good point, but as I stated, my concern is motivated by a protective instinct for the PC game that we all love.

Between you and me, I'll be the judge of all that.
 

I am not quite sure why you stated this, but I did preface my statements by indicating it is obviously based on my experience and judgements. Would you not agree that Hawken high tier players seem to take each mech, map and mechanic to the logical culmination of pushing the skill ceiling and thereby defining how the game is played?
The rest of us can try to emulate some of that play style to improve our own game.

I played Predator for RATA in season 2 of TPG.
Calling it's intended purpose as assassination is perfectly reasonable regardless of "tier", but also specifically at the highest tier play.

Fair enough. My experience with high tier players and Predators and Scouts is that they can, and do, use these mechs quite beyond their defined roles of assassination, and in part due to the versatility of the PC builds. Also, creating and perfecting corner play, discovering that a bunny hop at the end of a boost brings weapons up quicker, and writing guides for the rest of us are more examples of my point on this matter; the high tier guys define the game to a large degree, in spite of the original intent of a given mech.

My opinion is that reloaded is doing a great deal to add new exciting mech combinations in the spirit of ADH's foray into their version of "g2" mechs the g2 assault and the g2 raider.
My observation of the console build so far (I've played an xbox account through to level 23 or so) is that they are doing great work on balance issues that always came with new mech introductions back during ADH's tenure, in a way that mitigates their negative impacts to a great degree once introduced to the PC build.
It's actually very clever.

I would use the Neif hotfix on xbox yesterday as an indication that they are able to quickly adjust for game balance with new content inroductions very quickly.
They are looking very good, if you are being fair.

I love good news. Thank you!

My opinion on how these dual primary mechs will affect pc build is they will add a great variety to a fine game.

Again, this is good to hear.

As far as your "stricter roles" thing goes.
My opinion is that pigeon holes and stereotypes are for pedants.
My opinion is that a mech's potential in terms of "role" is a demand more of the player in any given scenario than the mech type itself.

We agree.
However, "stricter roles" are not my words per se. It was announced with the console update in the q+a thread that this was a development decision:

The Grenadier has undergone a rework that is intended to help differentiate it a little more. As with the Assault, this only applies to Grenadiers purchased after the update.

It is back, but much more effective this time around. We want to start pulling the Mechs further apart from each other giving them much more defined roles on the battlefield. This involves making the Grenadier very effective at area denial and zone control.

ESPECIALLY with new mech combinations. This takes player communities sometime to hash out.
It was almost 3 months before the hawken community came to terms with what was possible forthe Predator after it's release.

I believe this demonstrates our agreement perfectly and further establishes my concerns and hopes that the devs do not pull in the opposite direction with their role definition concept.
 

If you felt in your very limited experience with a rev gl grenadier that it was in any way "limited to banging choke points", then you never saw it's true potential.

There is a miscommunication here. The Mech guide always used to describe the Grenadier as an area denial mech. Combine this with the developer announcement that they wanted to more tightly define mech roles, and then add the removal of the grenade launcher and then my statement should make more sense.
My concern was that dual rev gls in the new PC build would possibly limit the Grenadier to banging a choke point. Forgive me for the hyperbole.

I would suggest not hobbling what a mech is capable of, with a theory of it's constraints that are demonstrably false.

Since my concern was toward the dual rev gl Grenadier, I think this is moot(?)
 

There will be no shortage of your thermometer in the new build I can assure you

I understand that the CRT has essentially taken the place of the Assault.
 

Hawken is getting better. Reloaded is doing great work.

We are all anxiously awaiting and striving to be patient.

While I can understand that some feel powerless in the changes of the game that affords a portion of their identity to them.

This premise, worded as such, seems a little bit extreme, but I take your point.
Speaking for myself, Hawken is a fun game that is rewarding and thus far endlessly challenging. I do crave sameness, and, though I believe I detect some resentment on your part (correct me on this if I am wrong), the Assault is basically all I know how to play decently.
I have over 950 hours on Hawken, and could never break 1800 MMR until a high tier player told me to go back and re learn Assault, which is what I have been doing for the past hundreds of hours.

Reloaded has made it clear in the past, and demonstrates currently that they are willing to take the time to listen and apply much of what older players contribute in the way of player experience and knowledge sourced in actual playtime.

I think they are serving the game well. The new build is still Hawken through and through.
It will continue to be so, and for many new audiences.
While issues will of course come up with the introduction of new powerful weapons and combinations.
I'm delighted they are breaking eggs and making omelettes.

I would like to take your word for it, and you sound very convinced of this. I remain optimistic.


Edited by ARCH3TYP3, 21 July 2016 - 01:29 PM.

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#58
CraftyDus

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My concern was that dual rev gls in the new PC build would possibly limit the Grenadier to banging a choke point.
 

 

Since my concern was toward the dual rev gl Grenadier, I think this is moot(?)

 

 

footage of DM in the new build on dual rev gl so you have an idea of what it does differently

starts at 1:15:00

 

 

I understand that the CRT has essentially taken the place of the Assault.
 

 

TjBh1oe.jpg

 



 


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#59
ARCH3TYP3

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Thanks for the video. You make it look too easy.

But, I hope I have not inadvertently created more confusion?

Perhaps I should have made that line read, "My concern was that dual rev gls in the FUTURE PC build would possibly limit the Grenadier to banging a choke point. "

Anyway, thanks.

edit: And, judging by the inclusion of the thermometer meme, I guess I am correct in sensing some resentment, at least toward Assault pilots.

:sad:


Edited by ARCH3TYP3, 21 July 2016 - 12:39 PM.

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#60
CraftyDus

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For practical purposes, Fred and the Wilma are the same.

Eventually most pilots evolve and move on from them.

It's not resentment at all.

But if that's all you're into, acting sad that some mechs are changing and new variations are being released looks like pretending.

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#61
Flifang

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Oh how I do love it when "this dps seems to beat all others" comes up in a game where there are dedicated spreadsheets already available that prove that statement shamefully wrong. 



#62
ARCH3TYP3

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For practical purposes, Fred and the Wilma are the same.

Eventually most pilots evolve and move on from them.

It's not resentment at all.

But if that's all you're into, acting sad that some mechs are changing and new variations are being released looks like pretending.

It is true that I do enjoy Assault more than all other mechs. For me, it's a huge part of Hawken and I play it the most.  

I am also concerned that at least 2 other mechs that I enjoy have been overhauled. I hope they are as enjoyable after the new PC build is released. 

Heh, I see what happened to start this now. You posted at 8:28am, and I posted at 8:32am above. It looks as though I am replying to you directly...when, I assure you that is not the case. We were typing at the same time.

Also, looking back on a post of mine, in which we discussed mini flak, I can see how the tone could easily be interpreted as less than humble.

I wanted to apologize for this and try to assure you that I am coming from a place of sincerity and inquisitiveness and not one of conflict.
In our latest exchange I have also tried to show you the high level of respect you most certainly deserve. 
 
I believe I now see a portion of your perspective, because reading over some of my latest posts, I can understand how it might appear that I am displaying a complaining spirit. 
Going forward, I will keep this in mind and strive to remain both more optimistic and humble.

Edited by ARCH3TYP3, 21 July 2016 - 02:18 PM.

"Finally, the white knight I deserve. [ARCHETYPE]" -  Amidatelion


#63
MomOw

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I played in "EU-BOTSTDM-668623" and noticed that they added the small facility (training TDM) to the map rotation

 

http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/263842459623373753/368F1AB9FF599732F339EB403AA17CA52EEF7CB5/

 

 

After further investigation, and over a hundred bots kills, unfortunately "small" facility haven't been added to the map rotation, but seems to be only the default map (after server reset ?)

 

the first map cycle is

small facility

facility

wreckage

bunker

 

and then everything comes back to

prosk

facility

wreckage

bunker

 

To be noted that you bot team in small facility get rekted very easily and that this map doesn't have that much escape route, so this is fun.

 

EDIT : side question : do any of you know if the bot stuck at ennemy starting point in coop TDM prosk map is still here in console version ?


Edited by MomOw, 22 July 2016 - 03:47 AM.

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#64
dorobo

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double rev-gl removes frustration of tryin to sync different speeds and archs of grenade launcher and rev on the same target.

Anyways i would put two alternating double barrelled rev-gl's on a grenadier but that would require actual development.. you know modelling, doing animations.. game design etc.


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#65
BlackWarGreymon

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Question for those on the console version:

 

How does the spawn screen look, compared to the PC version? Do you still have to suffer side scrolling through a single horizontal bar to find the mech you want to use ( with 30 mechs, that's gonna get rather old very quickly )?

 

I'm hoping they implement a simpler system, such as in the market place where you just have a screen of thumbnails for each mech, which can be re-arranged / reorganized to make selecting your preferred mechs much quicker and simpler. That would be nice...


:devil:


#66
StubbornPuppet

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Question for those on the console version:

 

How does the spawn screen look, compared to the PC version? Do you still have to suffer side scrolling through a single horizontal bar to find the mech you want to use ( with 30 mechs, that's gonna get rather old very quickly )?

 

I'm hoping they implement a simpler system, such as in the market place where you just have a screen of thumbnails for each mech, which can be re-arranged / reorganized to make selecting your preferred mechs much quicker and simpler. That would be nice...

 

I'm not on console, but I've watched a ton of videos.  It's a side-by-side vertical menu of 3 columns.  So... I suppose it's not quite as bad.


To be serious for a moment this is just a joke

 





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