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The current situation of the community`s anger, described by a completely unrelated video

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#41
Stormwalker42

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Have a look at this Reloaded. You seem so oblivious to why we are angry, no matter how much people have tried to describe the situation and why we are so angry. So please, look at this video, and listen.

 

 

Please make an effort to read other posts in the thread, at the very least the original post.
Please try to stay on topic.
This will benefit the discussion for all and may very likely help to win you a positive post to like ratio.

 

Already read it.   "Why we are angry."  The comment responds to how your anger shouldn't be there at all.  

 

You are not a moderator, don't try to moderate me.

 

Why would I care if this group likes my posts?


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#42
Onstrava

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Already read it.   "Why we are angry."  The comment responds to how your anger shouldn't be there at all.  

 

You are not a moderator, don't try to moderate me.

 

Why would I care if this group likes my posts?

You never should care if anybody likes or hates your posts, that goes for everybody. Opinions are opinions, speak your mind dude.


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Hold on to the things you care about most, even if others see it as insignificant..If you can't be true to yourself, are you really living?

W4znwFO.jpg1sHSjPn.png1sHSjPn.pngMLIZlEa.pngMLIZlEa.pngMLIZlEa.pngMLIZlEa.pngMLIZlEa.pngZVn3Cxy.pngZVn3Cxy.pngZVn3Cxy.pngbANk8SP.jpgMLIZlEa.pngMLIZlEa.pngMLIZlEa.pngMLIZlEa.pngMLIZlEa.pngMLIZlEa.pngMLIZlEa.pngZVn3Cxy.pngZVn3Cxy.pngZVn3Cxy.pngZVn3Cxy.pngZVn3Cxy.pngZVn3Cxy.pngZVn3Cxy.pngZVn3Cxy.pngZVn3Cxy.pngZVn3Cxy.pngMLIZlEa.pngMLIZlEa.pngZVn3Cxy.pngZVn3Cxy.pngZVn3Cxy.pngZVn3Cxy.pngZVn3Cxy.png1sHSjPn.pngW4znwFO.jpg


#43
eth0

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Silver fire sated

Onstrav all but Satisfied

why nerf Nief fury


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Pubstomping is a whole different strategic discussion, however, and usually just becomes an exploration of the ethics of dumpstering randos.

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Why mech game make when you no mech game have you don't want to make? 


#44
CraftyDus

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Already read it.   "Why we are angry."  The comment responds to how your anger shouldn't be there at all.  

 

You are not a moderator, don't try to moderate me.

 

Why would I care if this group likes my posts?

 

I'm not angry, and I'm not  "trying to moderate you"

 

Just trying to get you to engage in the discussion.

 

You are free to pontificate on JCPenny and McDonalds Chicken Mcnuggets.

It's unlikely to demonstrate an understanding of the dynamics that shape the relationship Hawken Community has with Reloaded.

 

The rest of us seemed to be trying to draw conclusions from comparisons between Niantic/PoGo and Reloaded/Hawken.

 

On a personal note, I'm not sure why you are so hostile.

I'm sorry for finding you upset.


Edited by CraftyDus, 03 August 2016 - 08:32 AM.

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#45
Onstrava

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Silver fire sated

Onstrav all but Satisfied

why nerf Nief fury

It's a good day today.


Hold on to the things you care about most, even if others see it as insignificant..If you can't be true to yourself, are you really living?

W4znwFO.jpg1sHSjPn.png1sHSjPn.pngMLIZlEa.pngMLIZlEa.pngMLIZlEa.pngMLIZlEa.pngMLIZlEa.pngZVn3Cxy.pngZVn3Cxy.pngZVn3Cxy.pngbANk8SP.jpgMLIZlEa.pngMLIZlEa.pngMLIZlEa.pngMLIZlEa.pngMLIZlEa.pngMLIZlEa.pngMLIZlEa.pngZVn3Cxy.pngZVn3Cxy.pngZVn3Cxy.pngZVn3Cxy.pngZVn3Cxy.pngZVn3Cxy.pngZVn3Cxy.pngZVn3Cxy.pngZVn3Cxy.pngZVn3Cxy.pngMLIZlEa.pngMLIZlEa.pngZVn3Cxy.pngZVn3Cxy.pngZVn3Cxy.pngZVn3Cxy.pngZVn3Cxy.png1sHSjPn.pngW4znwFO.jpg


#46
RedVan

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On a personal note, I'm not sure why you are so hostile.

I'm sorry for finding you upset.

d8604bd1ad75d4b06a9ae3c7f8ce0a07d409734b


Edited by RedVan, 03 August 2016 - 08:43 AM.

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#47
Stormwalker42

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I'm not angry, and I'm not  "trying to moderate you"

 

Just trying to get you to engage in the discussion.

 

You are free to pontificate on JCPenny and McDonalds Chicken Mcnuggets.

It's unlikely to demonstrate an understanding of the dynamics that shape the relationship Hawken Community has with Reloaded.

 

The rest of us seemed to be trying to draw conclusions from comparisons between Niantic/PoGo and Reloaded/Hawken.

 

On a personal note, I'm not sure why you are so hostile.

I'm sorry for finding you upset.

 

I am not upset nor hostile.  Just pointing something out firmly.   This group seems to need it.

 

The post IS on topic.  You shouldn't be angry, this is why.   The company is out to make money.  Was extrapolating on another person's posts.  You see, I do read.  The comment about quality.  Again, showing how quality and profit sometimes do not have anything to do with each other.  Another reason that the new devs direction should not anger you.

 

I get it, you don't agree.   That doesn't change the validity of my arguments nor the fact that they are on topic.



#48
CraftyDus

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I'm finding it necessary to reiterate, I am not angry at the devs.

Please understand that.

You seem to have run with the opposite presumption, despite my many posts explaining the contrary.

 

In fact I am delighted at the new mechs, I have been enjoying the ps4 and xbox launch.

I love how fast they adjusted the brand new mech, The Neif. Twice.

 

I think I can understand the console forum seperation and it's ability to clarify how the changes might be better adjusted BEFORE they get to the pc version, in order to make that smoother.

 

After playing the game with all its problems for so long without developers working on it, seeing new content is exceedingly fun.

For a game that we all have  enjoyed playing so much.

 

You haven't gotten it yet. Whether i disagree or agree with the OP or it's salient replies.

I would consider this plenty of explanation?

Do you like to play Hawken?


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#49
TheButtSatisfier

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Edit: WHAT THREAD AM I IN


Edited by TheButtSatisfier, 03 August 2016 - 09:22 AM.

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8) Tech in the streets, Brawler in the sheets (8


#50
coldform

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I am not upset nor hostile.  Just pointing something out firmly.   This group seems to need it.

I want them to change the game so this group hates it. I want you folks to hate it. I want them to post and complain on the forums until you all get banned. Getting rid of the entire group of you would be the best thing to ever happen for this game and this community. Banning Amid and Merl made me very happy. Hopefully it was only the beginning.


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I like going against the best of any game I play. Helps you in the long run n motivates u to do more. Always room for improvement not failure

z6aJAX7.png?1

 

czerofive-Today at 2:22 AM > got banned from playing lazertag - I used a knife to conserve ammo

FIRST OFF WHAT THE FUZZ IS A "SHILL"


#51
Hyginos

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I am not upset nor hostile.  Just pointing something out firmly.   This group seems to need it.
 
The post IS on topic.  You shouldn't be angry, this is why.   The company is out to make money.  Was extrapolating on another person's posts.  You see, I do read.  The comment about quality.  Again, showing how quality and profit sometimes do not have anything to do with each other.  Another reason that the new devs direction should not anger you.
 
I get it, you don't agree.   That doesn't change the validity of my arguments nor the fact that they are on topic.

 
 
Just to be clear here, I think this:
 

I still can't seem to get across to this community that you put years into learning a broken, unfinished remnant of a game.  We don't even know that the original developers wanted this to be the end product.  It never got that far.  Just because a select few people learned to play the remnant well, doesn't mean you get to have any say at all what the end product will be.  I an not saying that you can't have an opinion of how you feel the direction the game should go, but to be so angry and disappointed that your view isn't shared by the current devs, is honestly a waste of time and energy.


Is the only thing crafty has problems with. The thing is, regardless of how broken or bad or unbalanced or whatever you think the PC patch is, the fact that those of us in the comp comunity have been playing the everloving fuzzy bunny out of it for years lends insight that makes us MORE qualified to discuss how it should change, not less.

 

As for "We don't even know that the original developers wanted this to be the end product.", I seem to recall ADH being very open about their design direction before the First Great Silence. I'm having trouble finding it, as I was less around at that point than some other players, but I remember a statement from someone in ADH that the core of the game as it is is pretty much as they intended to release it. Maybe someone like Keji can corroborate on that. Might have to dig through some old cockpit podcasts.


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MFW Howken

 

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#52
Stormwalker42

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I am not upset nor hostile.  Just pointing something out firmly.   This group seems to need it.

I want them to change the game so this group hates it. I want you folks to hate it. I want them to post and complain on the forums until you all get banned. Getting rid of the entire group of you would be the best thing to ever happen for this game and this community. Banning Amid and Merl made me very happy. Hopefully it was only the beginning.

 

 

This still doesn't show hostility.  You are angry that the devs aren't listening.   One of the reasons that the current devs do not take your input seriously is the forum tactics that this community uses.  If someone's opinion differs, they are attacked and asked for proof.   If they give proof or evidence, they are attacked and stated that the proof is "off topic" or for some other reason invalid.

 

You can distill this whole community's tactics to:  If you disagree with what I say your opinion is invalid.

 

Thus I feel that the game and the community would be better off without these people.   There is no hostility nor am I upset.   It's just my opinion.



#53
Stormwalker42

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Just to be clear here, I think this:
 


Is the only thing crafty has problems with. The thing is, regardless of how broken or bad or unbalanced or whatever you think the PC patch is, the fact that those of us in the comp comunity have been playing the everloving fuzzy bunny out of it for years lends insight that makes us MORE qualified to discuss how it should change, not less.

 

As for "We don't even know that the original developers wanted this to be the end product.", I seem to recall ADH being very open about their design direction before the First Great Silence. I'm having trouble finding it, as I was less around at that point than some other players, but I remember a statement from someone in ADH that the core of the game as it is is pretty much as they intended to release it. Maybe someone like Keji can corroborate on that. Might have to dig through some old cockpit podcasts.

 

Yes.  You can discuss it all you want.  No argument there.   You may be right that this is what ADH wanted.  

 

ADH is out of the picture.   Someone else has the helm now.  You can state your opinion and discuss it all you want.  You should not expect that they listen or make any changes based on that.   You should not be getting angry if they don't.

 

If you like the end product, play.   If you don't like the end product, don't play.

 

To get upset and angry that the new devs product is not going in the direction you wanted it to, is futile at best.



#54
Silverfire

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I already feel that "Professional Gamer, Elite Gamer, Veteran Gamer, Play Tester" are nothing more than psychological diagnoses falling under the heading of Obsessive/Compulsive Disorder.  You really need to understand the difference between real life and playing games...The rest of you spend ridiculous amounts of time in attempting to force your point of view into a GAME for FREE.  That alone shows you need to talk to a therapist.  

 

As for Adhesive, listening to you and giving you folks a false sense of your own importance seems to have been a major mistake. It has created more problems for the current developers and now that they don't want to repeat these mistakes is mainly what is angering this group. 

 

...

 

The fact that this group has input into other games just shows me how pathetic the gaming development community has become.  You are a small, very narrow-minded, immature and selfish group of people who don't care about anything but your own enjoyment. This group has no concept at all what the general gaming market wants out of a game, nor how we see games.    No input you put into a game will ever benefit that game.  

 

I think you're angry too, man.  Not trying to judge, that's just what it seems like.

 

 

Yes.  You can discuss it all you want.  No argument there.   You may be right that this is what ADH wanted.  

 

ADH is out of the picture.   Someone else has the helm now.  You can state your opinion and discuss it all you want.  You should not expect that they listen or make any changes based on that.   You should not be getting angry if they don't.

 

If you like the end product, play.   If you don't like the end product, don't play.

 

To get upset and angry that the new devs product is not going in the direction you wanted it to, is futile at best.

 

 

If we don't like the end product, then we can talk to the devs in order to see what compromises can be made.  Games should be a collaborative effort between creator and consumer.  That's the mark of a successful game these days.  We should not take what the devs give us and just deal with it.  Just like if a political party institutes a law, you don't just sit there and take it if you don't like it.  You lobby and petition for changes in order to reflect the beliefs of the people who don't like that law.

 

If you don't like your current situation, you should try to change it.  If you can't change it, then leave.  But we want to change it because we don't want to leave.

 

Compromise is possible.  It's not one way or the other.  But without proper developer/player communication, it makes it harder to compromise and discuss.


Edited by Silverfire, 03 August 2016 - 10:28 AM.

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#55
coldform

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This still doesn't show hostility.  You are angry that the devs aren't listening.   One of the reasons that the current devs do not take your input seriously is the forum tactics that this community uses.  If someone's opinion differs, they are attacked and asked for proof.   If they give proof or evidence, they are attacked and stated that the proof is "off topic" or for some other reason invalid.

 

You can distill this whole community's tactics to:  If you disagree with what I say your opinion is invalid.

 

Thus I feel that the game and the community would be better off without these people.   There is no hostility nor am I upset.   It's just my opinion.

 

I think you're still misconstruing what is happening.  for the most part, those that refute the ideas and suggestions that are posted have played the current iteration of hawken so much that they have a keen understanding of the underlying mechanics.  

 

take for example, the thread in which c05 proposes a change the the orbs to curtail the orblord meta.  those of us that participated in the last regular season of TPG played without the internals that constitute an orblord build, and found that without it, there is no optimal build. therefore, if orblord were allowed in its current form, it would be the ONLY optimal build.

 

but the changes he initially proposed affected the orbs, not the internals.  those of us that participated in TPG had already given that concept a lot of thought, and knew that it was the internals, not the item, that needed a change.

 

for the most part, we post in this manner because we can visualize these changes, see the outcome, and be able to determine the viability. playing this game for several years tends to have this effect.


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I like going against the best of any game I play. Helps you in the long run n motivates u to do more. Always room for improvement not failure

z6aJAX7.png?1

 

czerofive-Today at 2:22 AM > got banned from playing lazertag - I used a knife to conserve ammo

FIRST OFF WHAT THE FUZZ IS A "SHILL"


#56
Stormwalker42

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I'm finding it necessary to reiterate, I am not angry at the devs.

Please understand that.

You seem to have run with the opposite presumption, despite my many posts explaining the contrary.

 

In fact I am delighted at the new mechs, I have been enjoying the ps4 and xbox launch.

I love how fast they adjusted the brand new mech, The Neif. Twice.

 

I think I can understand the console forum seperation and it's ability to clarify how the changes might be better adjusted BEFORE they get to the pc version, in order to make that smoother.

 

After playing the game with all its problems for so long without developers working on it, seeing new content is exceedingly fun.

For a game that we all have  enjoyed playing so much.

 

You haven't gotten it yet. Whether i disagree or agree with the OP or it's salient replies.

I would consider this plenty of explanation?

Do you like to play Hawken?

 

If you are not discussing the Community's anger (which is the OP's statement), then isn't your entire post off topic?

 

Do I like to play Hawken?  Not at the moment.  There are too few mid-level players and too many veterans who don't care that they don't belong on those servers.   But again, isn't this question off-topic?   Where are we going with this and how is it on topic?

 

Am I looking forward to the PC changes.  Yes.  Will I be angry if I don't like those changes.  No.

 

Will I voice my opinion?  Maybe.  If they don't listen, will I get upset?  No.

 

This is the point.



#57
Stormwalker42

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I think you're angry too, man.  Not trying to judge, that's just what it seems like.

 

 

 

 

If we don't like the end product, then we can talk to the devs in order to see what compromises can be made.  Games should be a collaborative effort between creator and consumer.  That's the mark of a successful game these days.  We should not take what the devs give us and just deal with it.  Just like if a political party institutes a law, you don't just sit there and take it if you don't like it.  You lobby and petition for changes in order to reflect the beliefs of the people who don't like that law.

 

If you don't like your current situation, you should try to change it.  If you can't change it, then leave.  But we want to change it because we don't want to leave.

 

Compromise is possible.  It's not one way or the other.  But without proper developer/player communication, it makes it harder to compromise and discuss.

 

Just because I feel that the community would be better off without a certain element, doesn't make me angry.  This community and it's tactics in the past have given me plenty of reason to feel strongly about this.   These very same tactics are one of the reasons why the current devs don't take them seriously.  The bans are proof of that.  The fact that I feel that this very same community would not be a positive addition to other games is understandable.   If I feel you are a negative influence on one game, why would I want you effecting other games?

 

Also, I have seen many forms of OCD behavior in the past.  The fact that I feel that getting this deep into games is the same, again, doesn't mean I am angry.

 

Last on this point.  If I AM angry.  This doesn't change the validity of the post, this is just another tactic this community uses to invalidate opinions that differ from their's.

 

As for "I don't like a game so let's change the rules" and "this is a mark of a successful game these days", shows that you don't understand games.

 

You don't play Chess and since you don't like a rule, ask that it be changed so you can play better.

 

The evolution of games and why they were created is to teach people to learn to adapt to a different set of rules and play their best within those rules.  This isn't real life.  It's a game, that's the point.  

 

You folks already did it.  ADH created a set of rules and you learned to play it to the best of your ability. (The fact that I feel it was an unfinished set of rules can be put aside at this point).

 

Now the new devs have changed what they feel the rules should be.  You have no reason to expect that you because you played the old rules, or that any new player who is not happy with the current rules, that they will change them.

 

It honestly takes away from games and the point of them to change the rules to make the players happy.  It defeats the purpose of the game.


Edited by Stormwalker42, 03 August 2016 - 10:51 AM.


#58
Silverfire

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If you are not discussing the Community's anger (which is the OP's statement), then isn't your entire post off topic?

 

Do I like to play Hawken?  Not at the moment.  There are too few mid-level players and too many veterans who don't care that they don't belong on those servers.   But again, isn't this question off-topic?   Where are we going with this and how is it on topic?

 

Am I looking forward to the PC changes.  Yes.  Will I be angry if I don't like those changes.  No.

 

Will I voice my opinion?  Maybe.  If they don't listen, will I get upset?  No.

 

This is the point.

 

MMR distribution in the game:

 

hw0c94b.jpg

 

There's a remarkably low number of high MMR players, and even "mid tier" for that matter (counting mid tier as 1700-1900). I would count "low tier" as 1250-1600ish MMR.

 

Your issue lies not in the number of mid tier players in the game, but rather the fact that there is a small population and there's a lot of problems that one will encounter while part of a small population of a game.


Edited by Silverfire, 03 August 2016 - 10:47 AM.

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#59
Xacius

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You sure do post a lot for someone with nothing nice to say to anyone ever.

Yes



#60
Silverfire

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Now the new devs have changed what they feel the rules should be.  You have no reason to expect that you because you played the old rules, or that any new player who is not happy with the current rules, that they will change them.

 

It honestly takes away from games and the point of them to change the rules to make the players happy.  It defeats the purpose of the game.

 

So every video game developer studio who uses real players, both skilled and average, for feedback on how to improve the game, to see if there is any imbalance, to see if anything would be not good for the game.  

 

Every video game developer who uses normal people playtesters, they're doing it wrong, by your logic.

 

Developers should just do their own thing and players should take what they are given blindly, no matter what.

 

This is the logic I get from your arguments.

 

 

So if developers make a legitimately fuzzy bunny game, or make some really bad decisions in their game, and players don't tell them, or players tell the devs but the devs don't listen, will the game survive?


Edited by Silverfire, 03 August 2016 - 10:54 AM.

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#61
TAKE

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I think you're angry too, man.  Not trying to judge, that's just what it seems like.

 
The anger's quite clear, both from your quote, and from his/her previous forum interactions.  Remember their response to hestoned's opinion?
 

Yes Child. There is always at least one troll that crawls out of the refuse heap during threads like these.  It's ok, mama will be in to change your diaper and give you a cookie, now be quiet please.

 
Seems to me that most veteran posters are politely refuting Stormwalker's points (e.g., "We don't even know that the original developers wanted this to be the end product,") and he/she is angrily rebuking people for posting well-reasoned opinions.


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#62
Stormwalker42

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So every video game developer studio who uses real players, both skilled and average, for feedback on how to improve the game, to see if there is any imbalance, to see if anything would be not good for the game.  

 

Every video game developer who uses normal people playtesters, they're doing it wrong, by your logic.

 

Developers should just do their own thing and players should take what they are given blindly, no matter what.

 

This is the logic I get from your arguments.

 

 

So if developers make a legitimately fuzzy bunny game, or make some really bad decisions in their game, and players don't tell them, or players tell the devs but the devs don't listen, will the game survive?

 

It is not by MY logic.  It has to do with the creation, history and evolution of games themselves.  Look it up for yourself, you may understand it better.

 

Games were created to force people to adhere to a different set of rules.  To change those rules at a players whim, defeats the purpose of the game.

 

There are many games out there that have been played for centuries, and others that have never been played again.  So yes.  This is the point.

 

The arguments here go beyond just making adjustments for balance.  They want certain rules and features taken out of the game.  They want other features to not be added.  This isn't their call.  You can make your opinion known but have no reason to expect they be used or be angry if they are not used. 



#63
Stormwalker42

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The anger's quite clear, both from your quote, and from his/her previous forum interactions.  Remember their response to hestoned's opinion?
 

 
Seems to me that most veteran posters are politely refuting Stormwalker's points (e.g., "We don't even know that the original developers wanted this to be the end product,") and he/she is angrily rebuking people for posting well-reasoned opinions.

 

Here we go again.  Refuting an opinion based on something that has nothing to do with the topic.   First post, it kind of looks like someone created this profile just for this purpose.

 

The tactics used in these forums have shut down many valid opinions in these forums.   Let's just say for a moment I AM angry that you treat other people's opinions with such disdain and use underhanded tactics to refute them.  This does not invalidate the argument.

 

You may not like the way I talk or the opinions I have, this doesn't invalidate my argument.


Edited by Stormwalker42, 03 August 2016 - 11:12 AM.


#64
Hyginos

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It is not by MY logic.  It has to do with the creation, history and evolution of games themselves.  Look it up for yourself, you may understand it better.
 
Games were created to force people to adhere to a different set of rules.  To change those rules at a players whim, defeats the purpose of the game.
 
There are many games out there that have been played for centuries, and others that have never been played again.  So yes.  This is the point.


I'm sure chess was conceived in exactly the form it is now and nothing has changed about it ever in the history of anything. Same with checkers and soccer and rugby and every other game.
 
Also why is the onus on silverfire to research your arguments for you? Link or shens.
 

The arguments here go beyond just making adjustments for balance.  They want certain rules and features taken out of the game.  They want other features to not be added.  This isn't their call.  You can make your opinion known but have no reason to expect they be used or be angry if they are not used.


The process and personnel involved in developing, testing, and balancing the game is only relevant insofar as the content it produces.

 

The purpose of forum discussion is to speculate on what that content should look like. You are right in that it isn't our call (and I include you in that "our"), but that doesn't mean our (again, you too) opinions are meaningless to whoever's call it is.

 

 

EDIT: Holy fuzzy bunny its the only hawken player with a less-intuitively pronounced name than me.


Edited by Hyginos, 03 August 2016 - 11:15 AM.

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#65
Onstrava

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Basically what your saying is, this there game and they can do whatever they feel like doing with it, correct? And if you don't like the changes well it doesn't matter really. If I'm reading this correctly....and yes that is true. Opinions are just that, opinions, they can listen to them or just ignore them. So what have we learned here today? You guessed it, nothing! So what are we arguing about again? *Nevermind edit, looks like I was right*

Edited by Onstrava, 03 August 2016 - 11:47 AM.

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#66
CraftyDus

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Well good luck with all of that.

I hope you change your mind eventually and play the game. I think it's great fun.

 


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#67
Stormwalker42

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I'm sure chess was conceived in exactly the form it is now and nothing has changed about it ever in the history of anything. Same with checkers and soccer and rugby and every other game.
 
Also why is the onus on silverfire to research your arguments for you? Link or shens.
 


The process and personnel involved in developing, testing, and balancing the game is only relevant insofar as the content it produces.

 

The purpose of forum discussion is to speculate on what that content should look like. You are right in that it isn't our call (and I include you in that "our"), but that doesn't mean our (again, you too) opinions are meaningless to whoever's call it is.

 

 

EDIT: Holy fuzzy bunny its the only hawken player with a less-intuitively pronounced name than me.

 

The onus is on Silverfire because the topic is an entire college class and more.  I am not going to attempt to link the entire history and evolution of games.  It's something he needs to learn for himself.

 

Whether or not a certain rule has been adjusted in a given game doesn't change change the fact that they won't change the rule in soccer that you can't touch the ball with your hands just because a few players don't like it.

 

Also, if they don't like the call of a referee and argue it?   They get thrown out of the game.  Does this sound familiar?



#68
Stormwalker42

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Basically what your saying is, this there game and they can do whatever they feel like doing with it, correct? And if you don't like the changes well it doesn't matter really. If I'm reading this correctly....and yes that is true. Opinions are just that, opinions, they can listen to them or just ignore them. So what have we learned here today? You guessed it, nothing! So what are we arguing about again?

 

Going by the OP the discussion is about getting angry by the situation you stated.  My argument is no one should get angry about this.  Crafty's argument is that he isn't angry at all about this, which is why I was wondering why he's posting on this thread at all.

 

Everyone else seems to be arguing that I am angry and because I am angry my argument is invalid.

 

I think the cats are angry because there isn't enough food in the bowl and the dogs are angry because someone is walking other dogs past their yard.   That's  neither here nor there tho.....



#69
TAKE

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You may not like the way I talk or the opinions I have, this doesn't invalidate my argument.

 

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#70
Nept

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Also, if they don't like the call of a referee and argue it?   They get thrown out of the game.  Does this sound familiar?

 

You're reaching.  Soccer's not a live-development project whose creators/developers (supposedly) value player/dev interaction and feedback.


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#71
Stormwalker42

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You're reaching.  Soccer's not a live-development project whose creators/developers (supposedly) value player/dev interaction and feedback.

 

Someone else brought up Soccer, not me.  I was just extrapolating on that.  Yet I am the one who is reaching.   Again, do you see the way you manipulate the arguments against someone's opinions you do not like?  Do you see the way this community handles situations like this?  

 

This is exactly why they do not listen to this community.



#72
Silverfire

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The onus is on Silverfire because the topic is an entire college class and more.  I am not going to attempt to link the entire history and evolution of games.  It's something he needs to learn for himself.

 

Whether or not a certain rule has been adjusted in a given game doesn't change change the fact that they won't change the rule in soccer that you can't touch the ball with your hands just because a few players don't like it.

 

Also, if they don't like the call of a referee and argue it?   They get thrown out of the game.  Does this sound familiar?

 

Those games you listed before are done developing.  It's a finished product.  Soccer is a finished product.  It's not being "developed" anymore.  Poor example, come up with a better one.  Your analogy is reaching (not agreeing with soccer's rules so you are thrown out does not equate to being banned from the forums for disagreeing with developer decisions), not the fact that soccer is a finished product.

 

The onus is technically on you because you made the statement, so you have to back it up.  That's the history and fundamentals of discussing/debating.  I won't link an entire college course on it, but I know that the burden of proof is on you.  Here's a Wikipedia article: https://en.wikipedia...burden_of_proof

 

Hawken, on the other hand, is not a finished product.  It's still being developed. Meaning we should be discussing can be done about the game in its current state.  No one is angry.  We can be upset about design decisions because we might feel they are the wrong ones.  That's a legitimate emotion and an a legitimate action considering what we might view as proper for the game.  Some people like the Technician, some want it removed.  It's still here.  We are allowed to voice our unhappiness in hopes that it might follow through.  Persistence helps too.


Edited by Silverfire, 03 August 2016 - 11:45 AM.

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#73
CraftyDus

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 Crafty's argument is that he isn't angry at all about this, which is why I was wondering why he's posting on this thread at all.

 

 

My word.

Here is the entirety of my core contribution to the OP all before you started talking about  JCPenny and McDonalds.

You either  haven't taken the time to read or are unwilling to recognize it.

You've never once referenced the content of any of it.

It's abundantly clear that you have only read the title of this thread, because at this point what you have contributed is even at odds with Aregon's first post.

Enjoy

 

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#74
Silverfire

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Someone else brought up Soccer, not me.  I was just extrapolating on that.  Yet I am the one who is reaching.   Again, do you see the way you manipulate the arguments against someone's opinions you do not like?  Do you see the way this community handles situations like this?  

 

This is exactly why they do not listen to this community.

 

This is exactly why people don't listen to you.  You take a point, you shift the focus elsewhere when you are at fault in a logical sense and refuse to admit it because you don't want to be wrong.

 

I know what that's called: https://en.wikipedia...iki/Red_herring  The popular Red Herring fallacy.

 

 

Look, I want to have a good discussion about this stuff.  But you're making it difficult for us to discuss if you do this.


Edited by Silverfire, 03 August 2016 - 11:49 AM.

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#75
Nept

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Someone else brought up Soccer, not me.  I was just extrapolating on that.  Yet I am the one who is reaching.   Again, do you see the way you manipulate the arguments against someone's opinions you do not like?  Do you see the way this community handles situations like this?  

 

This is exactly why they do not listen to this community.

 

Well, yes - you are the one reaching because you decided to continue the metaphor past relevant territory.  That's not a personal attack.  It's just basic debate.


Edited by Nept, 03 August 2016 - 11:48 AM.


#76
TheButtSatisfier

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I know what that's called: https://en.wikipedia...iki/Red_herring  The popular Red Herring fallacy.

 

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#77
Stormwalker42

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Those games you listed before are done developing.  It's a finished product.  Soccer is a finished product.  It's not being "developed" anymore.  Poor example, come up with a better one.  Your analogy is reaching (not agreeing with soccer's rules so you are thrown out does not equate to being banned from the forums for disagreeing with developer decisions), not the fact that soccer is a finished product.

 

The onus is technically on you because you made the statement, so you have to back it up.  That's the history and fundamentals of discussing/debating.  I won't link an entire college course on it, but I know that the burden of proof is on you.  Here's a Wikipedia article: https://en.wikipedia...burden_of_proof

 

Hawken, on the other hand, is not a finished product.  It's still being developed. Meaning we should be discussing can be done about the game in its current state.  No one is angry.  We can be upset about design decisions because we might feel they are the wrong ones.  That's a legitimate emotion and an a legitimate action considering what we might view as proper for the game.  Some people like the Technician, some want it removed.  It's still here.  We are allowed to voice our unhappiness in hopes that it might follow through.  Persistence helps too.

 

Here you go again.   You do this every time Silverfire.   If you don't want to learn, its not my problem.   If you are on this forum, you can Google "The History of games" and research it ALL you want.   I already know this topic, its you that needs to learn.  Your ignorance on the topic again does not invalidate my argument.  

 

Again, your community's tactics show themselves.  I refuse to post the link, so my argument is invalid.   Earlier I posted the evidence, but my argument was invalid because the person attempted to state that the proof was off topic.  This is how you play back and forth and frustrate any person whose opinion's are contrary to yours.   Have fun.

 

"The current situation of the community's anger" is the OP but no one is angry?  This IS the topic.

 

Again, the community is doing the same thing.   I disagree with you, thus my argument is invalid.

 

This has been the way they play for years, why should they change now.



#78
Silverfire

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Here you go again.   You do this every time Silverfire.   If you don't want to learn, its not my problem.   If you are on this forum, you can Google "The History of games" and research it ALL you want.   I already know this topic, its you that needs to learn.  Your ignorance on the topic again does not invalidate my argument.  

 

Again, your community's tactics show themselves.  I refuse to post the link, so my argument is invalid.   Earlier I posted the evidence, but my argument was invalid because the person attempted to state that the proof was off topic.  This is how you play back and forth and frustrate any person whose opinion's are contrary to yours.   Have fun.

 

"The current situation of the community's anger" is the OP but no one is angry?  This IS the topic.

 

Again, the community is doing the same thing.   I disagree with you, thus my argument is invalid.

 

This has been the way they play for years, why should they change now.

 

Your argument isn't invalid, it's just improperly supported.  I don't want to discount you because I disagree with you.  All I'm saying is that you could, at the very least, post a link to some relevant article because even I did for you.  That would be sufficient.

 

It's not my fault that your ignorance in debating skills is costing you and your arguments.  I already know the topic and the skills necessary, it's you that needs to learn this time.

 

 

 

 

Also: https://en.wikipedia...iki/Red_herring


Edited by Silverfire, 03 August 2016 - 11:59 AM.

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#79
Onstrava

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Came for the 36M Intel, stayed for the nonsense. I hope everybody down there is enjoying the show, I know I am.

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#80
Aregon

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