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Hawken Moving Forward; Into A New Sub-Genre of Shooters

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#1
ShadowWarg

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Intro:

Spoiler

 

I want to say this first. I know its been almost a year since the new team picked up Hawken and they have something planned coming. I don't want to step on their toes and I want to respect and support their design team's decisions moving forward. However I feel that this is an important discussion that will help shape Hawken into a solid game.

 

I'll get straight to the point. Overwatch and Battleborn are two, I guess you could call them "MOBA shooters", coming out soon. They use ideas generally found in MOBAs, such as classes or heroes (in Battleborn you even level up your character during the match), they have longer TTK, and use many other concepts similar to Hawken that are not normally found in your everyday shooter. Hawken started almost like this, borrowing more from TF2, but back in the early days of Hawken as time went on, the game started to have an identity crisis. I guess because there was hardly much else for Hawken to compare itself to, it was often put up against MechWarrior Online and other popular fps which generally had lower TTK, linear movement, faster speeds, basically everything Hawken wasn't. Maybe it was the publishers or whatever, but as time went on the game slowly changed making it move closer to those fps' while struggling to keep what made the game originally appealing. I think things are different now though, with the emergence of these two MOBA-esk games.

 

Hawken, given what it is, fits quite nicely into this sub-genre of shooters. It actually already has the back bone for it already, but it needs some of its more "interesting mechanics" fleshing out. For example siege mode, maybe a few tweaks or reversions to movement, the classes, most importantly the current health system (which I know i will make a post on later) just to name a few. I'm not saying overhaul the game (which maybe that's what the new team is doing) as it has improved in some areas, but now there is a possible clear identity goal that it didn't have that we can work towards.


Edited by ShadowWarg, 22 January 2016 - 12:12 PM.


#2
coldform

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Maybe we ought to quit trying to put hawken in a genre.

Like, "and then there were the mongols."
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I like going against the best of any game I play. Helps you in the long run n motivates u to do more. Always room for improvement not failure

z6aJAX7.png?1

 

czerofive-Today at 2:22 AM > got banned from playing lazertag - I used a knife to conserve ammo

FIRST OFF WHAT THE FUZZ IS A "SHILL"


#3
CounterlogicMan

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MOBA elements means lanes, starting at level 1 and gaining exp over the course of a match to level up, a skill bar, usually some kind of ultimate ability, creep that travel through lanes, structures you must destroy, team based combat based on different classes, and some sort of enemy base structure you must destroy or capture to win. A MOBA is typically a combination of RTS and RPG elements with a unique flare that is not found in either RTS or RPGs. 

 

Having classes that have 1 or 2 abilities and a level based progression system does not, in my opinion, make a game MOBA like. Battleborn is the only game you listed that really has any MOBA elements. It has lanes, creeps, you level up over the course of a match, and have multiple abilities you can cast, structures you must push and destroy to win, there are also a variety of heroes that are essentially different classes. Hawken has classes that each have a single ability, Overwatch has classes which have 2 abilities and an ultimate. If I were to compare Overwatch to other games in terms of clear inspiration. They would be TF2 and Dirty Bomb. Hawken, in the words of its creator, is a mix of Halo and Mechwarrior while trying to capture some of the arena shooter feel from Quake/UT. Over time it has brought in some clear influence from TF2 as well. 

 

If I absolutely HAD to peg Hawken, Overwatch, and Battleborn to subgenres it would be Class based arena shooter (Overwatch, and Hawken) and MOBA-FPS (Battleborn). There are very very very few MOBA-Shooters out there. Battleborn and Minimum are really the only shooters I can think of that truly incorporate MOBA elements. Even then Minimum is probably closer to just a traditional third person MOBA like Smite. 

 

In the end I think creating a plethora of subgenres is pretty pointless and purely marketing shenanigans to try and set apart shooters that really really just dull iterations on games that were truly unique. I don't think Hawken is a dull iteration and should really just stay firmly labelled an FPS.

 

As for a clear identity goal for Hawken. I think something closer to the game modes and flashing abilities of Overwatch is what should be aimed for. Maybe a MOBA style game mode (Lane, Creep, Levels during gameplay, buying items/internals with EU gained from creep, objectives, and structures to push) in Hawken, although something like this would take a huge amount of work to implement. I think it would result in something that has a very unique flare (Hawken) combine with something that is the current flavor of the past few years (MOBAs).


Edited by CounterlogicMan, 22 January 2016 - 01:51 PM.

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#4
Hyginos

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Can we please stop using the word MOBA? The term "Multiplayer Online Battle Arena" could reasonably describe almost every (if not just every) online multiplayer game ever.

 

Additionally, genre is a descriptor and a descriptor only. Form should follow function here, in that development choices should be made solely with intention of improving the game, while allowing various internet denizens and forum lords to attempt to classify the result. Hawken doesn't necessarily need to find an identity if it can make one.


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MFW Howken

 

My post count is neat.


#5
ShadowWarg

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Can we please stop using the word MOBA? The term "Multiplayer Online Battle Arena" could reasonably describe almost every (if not just every) online multiplayer game ever.

 

Additionally, genre is a descriptor and a descriptor only. Form should follow function here, in that development choices should be made solely with intention of improving the game, while allowing various internet denizens and forum lords to attempt to classify the result. Hawken doesn't necessarily need to find an identity if it can make one.

Sorry. Wrong choice of words on my part. I'm not really trying to classify Hawken as one thing or another. I'll steal your words and say I wanted to start a discussion about the "function" of Hawken and working it into a "form"

 

Hawken as is has a great back bone already in place, but there are some elements that aren't as fleshed out as say "Overwatch" , "Battleborn", "Halo", "TF2", "Mechwarrior" that are close to the same style of gameplay. Where TO ME, I feel more of a focus from those games (they all have a clear but different identity) where I feel that Hawken's focus was kind of lost as the updates came out.

 

Edit:

Not trying to be that guy that shows up saying "Evenything is wrong. This needs to change" after being away for so long, and sorry if I come off that way. I'm asking. What are we working towards.


Edited by ShadowWarg, 22 January 2016 - 03:47 PM.


#6
angryhampster

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the thing is, hawken isn't even on the map yet.



#7
coldform

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...Not trying to be that guy that shows up saying "Evenything is wrong. This needs to change" after being away for so long, and sorry if I come off that way. I'm asking. What are we working towards.

 

I don't think that anyone here has stated, either explicitly or implicitly, that the tone of your OP was along these lines.  If anything at all, you have taken a topic that has been discussed on this forum, and approached it from a different perspective.  This seems to be accepted by those that have responded, including me.  You shared your opinion, and we shared ours.  Given the stagnation in points of discussion, you actually stimulated a genuine discussion.

 

Good move.


I like going against the best of any game I play. Helps you in the long run n motivates u to do more. Always room for improvement not failure

z6aJAX7.png?1

 

czerofive-Today at 2:22 AM > got banned from playing lazertag - I used a knife to conserve ammo

FIRST OFF WHAT THE FUZZ IS A "SHILL"


#8
TheButtSatisfier

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the thing is, hawken isn't even on the map yet.

 

Hawken is on the map, but it's that really remote town of 300 people situated around a building which conveniently houses the post office, gas station, and strip bar off the highway in North Dakota. Various locals gossip and get into fights while they wait for the mayor and his secretary to roll through once a month with continued assurances that they'll soon have the funds to repair the billboard which will make our town great again. Some say the funding will never come. Others say the billboard don't change anything. Most just don't have anything else to talk about so they just keep going over the same points to fill the silence.


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8) Tech in the streets, Brawler in the sheets (8


#9
SS396

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Hawken is on the map, but it's that really remote town of 300 people situated around a building which conveniently houses the post office, gas station, and strip bar off the highway in North Dakota.


I thought I smelled the wretched stench of lutefisk cooking.
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[DELETED]

 

fuzzy bunny you CZeroFive 


#10
Amidatelion

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Can we please stop using the word MOBA? The term "Multiplayer Online Battle Arena" could reasonably describe almost every (if not just every) online multiplayer game ever.

 

Additionally, genre is a descriptor and a descriptor only. Form should follow function here, in that development choices should be made solely with intention of improving the game, while allowing various internet denizens and forum lords to attempt to classify the result. Hawken doesn't necessarily need to find an identity if it can make one.

 

Alternatively we could keep calling them MOBAs and exercise contextual awareness, understanding what the signifier signifies. After all, it's not like Final Fantasy is an RPG anymore, but we bloody well know what to expect when applying that label.


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#11
coldform

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Hawken is on the map, but it's that really remote town of 300 people situated around a building which conveniently houses the post office, gas station, and strip bar off the highway in North Dakota. Various locals gossip and get into fights while they wait for the mayor and his secretary to roll through once a month with continued assurances that they'll soon have the funds to repair the billboard which will make our town great again. Some say the funding will never come. Others say the billboard don't change anything. Most just don't have anything else to talk about so they just keep going over the same points to fill the silence.

every once in a while, we are blessed with little turds gems like this one.

 

This should be the standard warning given to new pilots' first accessing the forums, at least until the patch rolls in...

 

BTW, ShadoWarg actually had a good interesting new a topic going, but I derailed it a little. Mr. Bootiesoother just blew the whole friggin train up.

 

I think that video game genres are a little messed up.  The current set of genres does not accurately describe the game that are associated with, and refer to everything from a specific game mechanic(first person shooter) to a broad principle(mechs).  You could very well call it an RPG(pilot levels unlock items and internals/mechs fall into classes), a tactical RPG(Mech levels unlock new weapons/mechs fall into classes), even a MOBA(multiple players battling online in an enclosed map with distinct area, with a loose symmetry, also known as an arena).


  • DallasCreeper likes this

I like going against the best of any game I play. Helps you in the long run n motivates u to do more. Always room for improvement not failure

z6aJAX7.png?1

 

czerofive-Today at 2:22 AM > got banned from playing lazertag - I used a knife to conserve ammo

FIRST OFF WHAT THE FUZZ IS A "SHILL"


#12
angryhampster

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Hawken is on the map, but it's that really remote town of 300 people situated around a building which conveniently houses the post office, gas station, and strip bar off the highway in North Dakota. Various locals gossip and get into fights while they wait for the mayor and his secretary to roll through once a month with continued assurances that they'll soon have the funds to repair the billboard which will make our town great again. Some say the funding will never come. Others say the billboard don't change anything. Most just don't have anything else to talk about so they just keep going over the same points to fill the silence.

 

WHAT KIND OF PERSON CREATES AN ACCOUNT NAME LIKE YOURS?!?!?!?



#13
AxionOperandi

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Hawken, given what it is, fits quite nicely into this sub-genre of shooters. It actually already has the back bone for it already, but it needs some of its more "interesting mechanics" fleshing out. For example siege mode, maybe a few tweaks or reversions to movement, the classes, most importantly the current health system (which I know i will make a post on later) just to name a few. I'm not saying overhaul the game (which maybe that's what the new team is doing) as it has improved in some areas, but now there is a possible clear identity goal that it didn't have that we can work towards.

Hawken can be whatever you want to call it / classify it as, doesn’t matter.  It just needs to be fun to more people.

 

As I see Hawken as always been just a slice of what should be a more complete game.  There is not enough maps, not enough mechs, not enough weapons, not enough game modes (Siege only sort of works and MA is old hat).  Not enough for everything for the game to be successful in the slightest sense of the word.  Top that off with a rather step learning curve and how the game was managed yeah.... Hawkens fate should not surprise anyone.

 

Reloaded seems to have a grasp on the situation from what they've talked about thus far.  Push out some fresh content, update the UI but ultimately new game modes that are probably what the game needs to appeal to more people.



#14
Jaquio

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There are only a couple games that I've really been in love with over the past few years.

 

The first was Super Monday Night Combat. The world building and universe was perfect, as was the game night color commentary. Amazing stuff there. The gameplay was also fantastic, as a sort of third person moba thing. The game itself was the titular Monday Night Combat where two teams would compete to lead waves of killer robots past the opposing team's waves of killer robots to finally capture the moneyball. This is played out as a sporting event, each class was a different superstar clone, augmented by churros and bacon. It really deserved more.

 

The other is Hawken, we all know Hawken here and I'm not going into great detail. 

 

Hawken, for me, boils down to the feel of the game. The time to kill feels good. The movement is incredible, and I think the bones of something amazing are here.  The issue now is if those bones can be wrapped in flesh and made to live, or if they will simply fossilize and become a forgotten footnote in a Buzzfeed article about cult games of the past.

 

We are just the bugs scrabbling for any bit of flesh left on these bones, yearning for the days when we feasted. Praying that we will do so once again.


Edited by Jaquio, 23 January 2016 - 02:25 PM.


#15
ShadowWarg

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I don't think that anyone here has stated, either explicitly or implicitly, that the tone of your OP was along these lines.  If anything at all, you have taken a topic that has been discussed on this forum, and approached it from a different perspective.

Haha thanks. That's just me being overly cautions. Not fond of those people and I hate being that type of person even more.

 

Hawken can be whatever you want to call it / classify it as, doesn’t matter.  It just needs to be fun to more people.

 

As I see Hawken as always been just a slice of what should be a more complete game.  There is not enough maps, not enough mechs, not enough weapons, not enough game modes (Siege only sort of works and MA is old hat).  Not enough for everything for the game to be successful in the slightest sense of the word.

Honestly I couldn't care less about adding in more physical content atm. I rather see the current line-up of mechs more diversified than them adding new mechs. (I want my grenadier turret mode back though, better yet, give me artillery mode) Game modes I agree and are part of what helps a game stick out. Siege especially needs work, its suppose to be the mode that sets it apart from other games but its been broken and not that great since the beginning. Siege I feel should be more like Battleborn's meltdown mode; both siege and the missile control mode could take a some pointers from halo 5's warzone mode, .....minus the whole burn card and micro transaction mechanic. That TF2 escort mission, perfect for this game.

 

Great now you got me mumbling on about game modes, but like I said game modes help define a game along with the gameplay, mechanics and such so I think I'm still on topic. lol.

 


Hawken, for me, boils down to the feel of the game. The time to kill feels good. The movement is incredible, and I think the bones of something amazing are here.

I think someone from the old forums a long while back said the movement felt like "toys" or something rather than machines "compared to before". Your post happened to make me think of that.


Edited by ShadowWarg, 23 January 2016 - 07:32 PM.


#16
ShadowWarg

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deleted


Edited by ShadowWarg, 23 January 2016 - 07:32 PM.


#17
DallasCreeper

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deleted

Why are you deleting things? you're not a Cyberman, are you?


 

Spoiler

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#18
HugeGuts

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Since the "Hawken in 2016" thread seemed to disappear, the following is going here instead:

 

What I am most interested in about "Hawken moving forward" is the "major game play changes" mentioned in one of the long dev interviews from late last year. "Major game play changes" was mentioned separately from "new mechs", so I do not think Josh meant the game play changes would be (completely) coming from new mechs.

 

There is also Ashfire posting a picture that looks like found/restored files from earlier beta versions that ADH said were totally lost.

 

Speculations?

 

My speculation is something similar to pre-Steam resource management mechanics and numbers combining with current Hawken's smoother and faster movement system.


Edited by HugeGuts, 24 January 2016 - 06:23 AM.


#19
Catnium

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Totally agree with OP

this game when it came out used to be a lot more based on team play and classes , almost like that overwatch.

 

it kinda had a world of tanks / MWO esque feel to it with a kinda moba smite esk like class design

 

it used to have talent tree's  offence /defence/agility wich were so hard to balance they because mobility is king they simply removed it

 

it played differently than now for sure , but it was unfinished even back then.

I feel hawken SHOULD be more of a overwatch kind of game than it is a Counter Strike or battlefield kind of game.


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#20
ShadowWarg

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Since the "Hawken in 2016" thread seemed to disappear, the following is going here instead:

 

What I am most interested in about "Hawken moving forward" is the "major game play changes" mentioned in one of the long dev interviews from late last year. "Major game play changes" was mentioned separately from "new mechs", so I do not think Josh meant the game play changes would be (completely) coming from new mechs.

 

There is also Ashfire posting a picture that looks like found/restored files from earlier beta versions that ADH said were totally lost.

 

Speculations?

 

My speculation is something similar to pre-Steam resource management mechanics and numbers combining with current Hawken's smoother and faster movement system.

I don't really way to speculate anything atm until they make an announcement about the first "reboot" patch. They said something is coming Soon™ but a part of me is worried what that "something" is. I know the thread was started kind or late (or on time depending on how you think about it), and I know when your neck deep into development its not easy to change things, but the whole point of this discussion was to try and get a feel for were the community wants Hawken to be, as well as my thoughts on where it could fit in along side other games out there.



#21
StubbornPuppet

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I think we all forgot that the major announcement appears to have been "Android Console".


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To be serious for a moment this is just a joke

 


#22
Sylhiri

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I think we all forgot that the major announcement appears to have been "Android Console".

 

It reminded me so much of ADH that announcement depressed me.



#23
phed

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I think we all forgot that the major announcement appears to have been "Android Console".


Wait,what? Where was this at?

#24
Sylhiri

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Wait,what? Where was this at?

 

https://community.pl...id-console-huh/



#25
ShadowWarg

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That is nothing new though. The original team was working with nvidia to bring Hawken to the nvidia shield, which also works on android. That was mentioned around the same time that the original team was show chasing destructible environments

 

 

Which, if you are reading this reloaded, is there any chances we can get this added through out the games (I know the chances are slim but had to ask) Does anyone else find it funny that this prototype map seems to have a better matching scale in size compared to the mechs than any other map already in the game? The scaling always seemed off to me.

 

I also don't really trust the source on that. No offense to China, but their market kind of does their own thing.


Edited by ShadowWarg, 28 January 2016 - 05:27 PM.





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