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Siege in Facility/ Bazaar/ Prosk

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#1
IamSrk

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All of these maps have AA area. Then why they are not being put to any use? I know in Closed beta days of Hawken, We could play Siege in Bazaar but then what happened? I am sure people would really like this idea. 


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#2
M4st0d0n

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Bazaar Siege was asymetrical. The bad kind of asymetrical. Three chokepoints to access AA from the north, one open terrain with good cover from the south.



#3
Merl61

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Bunker and bazaar siege are supported. They aren't in the rotation though. Both are wildly impractical. Facility doesn't have an aa....


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#4
nokari

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Facility doesn't have an AA, so it shouldn't be lumped with the other two.

 

Bazaar was hotly contested by many people because of the asymmetrical layout, as M4st0d0n mentioned, and ADH chose to just take it out of the rotation instead of editing the map as most people suggested. Some even provided detailed diagrams of strategic differences between the sides of the map and drew up how to improve the layout with really simple alterations to a little bit of terrain. My hope is the new guys take up that torch and fix the map, because it's one of my favorites.

 

bazaarl1.jpg

 

Prosk was the original Siege map shown in trailers and pre-alpha gameplay. Back then Siege was quite different in how you played and mechs as we're all aware were very different. The fact that it still has an AA silo is a leftover from those days, and looking at the map you can see it's also not symmetrical:

 

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Edited by nokari, 09 April 2015 - 04:21 PM.

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#5
KamikazeCommando

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Bazaar can be fixed with a bit of reworking, Facility has an obvious place for the AA ( silo 2 location, on the hill ) and would require essentially zero reworking, Prosk is lopsided but could also be fixed, Bunker is a small map but heck, it is also perfectly shaped and has a natural spot for the AA and EU stations.

 

Once the work behind the scenes is completed I would love to see some quick map-fixing in order to give us more options for playing seige on/in- the current rotation is rather limited to say the least.


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#6
Silverfire

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Bunker Siege exists and is a total fustercluck. But it's also strangely fun and ridiculous.
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#7
Amidatelion

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Bazaar needs a basic rework from the ground up in terms of size, distances and chokepoints for objective-based gameplay.

 

Bunker actually works, it just forces people into the same mech-choices if you want it to be legit competitive instead of roflcopter hilarity. This is a greater issue with the map than with the game-type. Bazaar works great as a TDM and DM, its just with static spawns and objectives it breaks down. Bunker has significant issues as a map but no issues with spawns and objectives.

 

Prosk, I don't know enough about, it was before my time.



#8
LaurenEmily

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For some reason facility siege sounds great, i love that map. I might even start playing siege if facility was added in the maps..

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#9
Grollourdo

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I like the bunker map... Siege would be cool there too... I think....

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#10
Anichkov3

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I see that there is quite a few people voted. I want to return the map in Bazaar siege. Speaking of asymmetry the map you forget that this was the highlight. It was fun to play there. Many people often say that the team won entirely advantage and win more often. But who among you can show me the real statistics of victories on this map? Earlier, when it was removed from the siege, I asked, nobody could show me that. Maybe now someone there? I believe that we need to return the map to the siege. And listen to the people who play TDM and enter the siege a couple of times a week is not correct.


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#11
Amidatelion

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I see that there is quite a few people voted. I want to return the map in Bazaar siege. Speaking of asymmetry the map you forget that this was the highlight. It was fun to play there. Many people often say that the team won entirely advantage and win more often. But who among you can show me the real statistics of victories on this map? Earlier, when it was removed from the siege, I asked, nobody could show me that. Maybe now someone there? I believe that we need to return the map to the siege. And listen to the people who play TDM and enter the siege a couple of times a week is not correct.

 

Listen to people who play TPG and play MA competitively. We banned it from play because Sentium can only reliably take 3 because fighting through the other points means fighting through chokepoints against an enemy entrenched in significant cover and who, in the case of Point 1, probably already control the point. It's not impossible to win as Sentium, but you are under a massive disadvantage.

 

I'd love to see the statistics myself, but its pretty easy to prove. Run several internal scrims until your eyes bleed and watch high ground lose.


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#12
crockrocket

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Bunker FF no radar no indicators is best siege 

 

 

 

For real though, I really want to try prosk siege. I'm guessing it isn't great, but it sounds like a litshoad of fun (in the same way that bunker siege is)


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#13
coldform

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I too have played plenty of siege in bazaar. Even at my play level, the chokepoints between the high ground and AA limit the ability for a team to push the AA as a whole unit. This inevitably led to those on the high ground team losing. A lot.

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#14
LaurenEmily

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There are 2 AA's in bazaar, did both of those work when it was playable ? Because that sounds kinda cool and less camp-y


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#15
Amidatelion

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There are 2 AA's in bazaar, did both of those work when it was playable ? Because that sounds kinda cool and less camp-y

 

...where's the second AA?



#16
LaurenEmily

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...where's the second AA?

 

Please correct me if i'm wrong, but there's this structure in the spawn-area that looks awfully lot like the AA without the base thingy.

Spoiler


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#17
Amidatelion

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That's S1/E2



#18
coldform

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That one of the EU tree locations.

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#19
LaurenEmily

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That's S1/E2

Of course it is. My bad  :rolleyes:


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#20
Anichkov3

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Listen to people who play TPG and play MA competitively. We banned it from play because Sentium can only reliably take 3 because fighting through the other points means fighting through chokepoints against an enemy entrenched in significant cover and who, in the case of Point 1, probably already control the point. It's not impossible to win as Sentium, but you are under a massive disadvantage.

 

I'd love to see the statistics myself, but its pretty easy to prove. Run several internal scrims until your eyes bleed and watch high ground lose.

Perhaps we should listen to the people who play in the siege and not in MA? Your contract "sandbox" far from public games. The fact that you play with communication and play with 20 ... 30 people of the 2,000 players does not mean you're right. 

On the map Bazaar are still ways to get around the AA. You often call minus one side battle - an open spot on the map. And you do not forget any chance that the other team is coming to AA through the narrow corridors, which are easy to control?


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#21
Amidatelion

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And you do not forget any chance that the other team is coming to AA through the narrow corridors, which are easy to control?

 

...That's the point.

 

That's the team that loses. The one that has to trudge through those corridors.

 

Your point about communication is valid though. I'll see about putting together a set of scrims next week to see how much knowledge of the imbalance of the map and communication affects the win/loss ratio.



#22
DM30

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I may not have statistics to prove anything, but when Siege was available on Bazaar I had a couple of games that highlighted the map imbalance extremely clearly. I've had surprisingly well balanced games on that map team-wise where if both teams got to the AA at the same time the fighting was intense with no clear advantage one way or another. Those games started out well.

 

And then people started dying on both teams, and it started to snowball. People from the low spawn who died had more options and better cover to approach from, and were able to reinforce the people on the AA relatively easily. The people from high spawn were forced to eat damage as they came through the narrow, completely exposed choke points so that by the time they got to the AA they were fighting with a severe handicap already. The low spawning team gained momentum, and eventually it was five or six players camping on the AA focus firing anyone who took one step into one of the chokes and forcing them to retreat or die.

 

Low spawn also has easier access to the flanks of the AA, so even if high spawn takes it low spawn has more ground to set up a crossfire and whittle the defenders down.

 

When the teams aren't perfectly balanced (so, most of the time) Siege on Bazaar can go either way and the spawns mean less, but it's in those very closely balanced games where the map's problems really show up, and low spawn would win a significant majority of those specific games.

 

 

In regards to OP:

Siege on Facility could be interesting, but with how open the S2 location is to the centre of the map defending it would be a nightmare. It might make the games more dynamic, or it might make it frustrating. Not sure. I'd have to see it tried.

 

From looking at the map of Prosk, bottom spawn looks to have much better access to the AA location, plus closer access to the bridge (since AA is closer to that side of the bridge, not in the middle). Just from that map it looks like it could be worse than Bazaar. No thanks.


Edited by DM30, 28 May 2015 - 12:24 PM.

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