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Uneven matches getting worse?

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#1
harmless_kittens

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This weekend I found TDM almost unplayable, from a balance standpoint.  I think I had ONE match all weekend (Friday, Saturday, Sunday) that started with 12 players.  This means Matchmaker can't do it's job, and I feel it shows.  I really like matches where scores are within 5 kills of each other.  I think most of us are this way.  But certain players joining later, especially high MMR players or "smurfs", keep drastically affecting the outcome.  For example, last night I started an 8 player match that was rated "3 Stars" for me.  After another player quickly joined, the scores spread rapidly.  Eventually we had a full 12 player match, but the score gap widened rather than narrowed.  So I left the match in the last 30 seconds or so to check something.  Sure enough, the "3 Star" match I had started was now showing on the list as a "1 Star" match!  This is directly because of who joined later.

 

Here is why it becomes "unplayable", in my opinion.  The team that is stomping the other team creates such a score gap and frustration level that one player on the losing team says "Forget it, I'm out" (often with more "colorful" language), and they leave.  Now the stomping team is also a man up on the other team, so the score gap widens even more.  This frustration causes another player on the losing team to leave the match, leaving the stomping team 2 men up.  This will prompt a request that one of those winning players switch to the losing team.  That sounds great, but most people are not eager to transfer to a team losing by 15 or more kills.  Eventually it will auto-assign if no one volunteers, but by this point the damage is already done.  Another player has probably left the losing team by now.  New players may be logging in around while all this is going on too.  They are assigned to the losing team of course, and when they see the massive score disparity they also promptly leave (I confess that I do this myself.  Why bother?). 

 

I'm going to start tracking my matches and their scores to see if I can find some correlation.  I'll track 1) How many players were in the lobby when MM formed the teams, and then 2) How many players were in the game at the end of the match, and finally 3) Final scores.  I may even write down some examples of unbalanced personal scores.

 

Anyway, my personal suspicion is that I will get better/closer matches based on how many players the match begins with.  Of course I could be totally wrong.  Having said all this, even if my fears are confirmed, then what?  That's the dilemma that I don't have a good answer to :(

 

(One suggestion might be to prompt the team switch anytime one team is up by 5 or more kills and the winning team has only ONE more player than the enemy team?  It seems that waiting for them to be up by 2 or more allows for too large a gap in scores to be formed.)

 



#2
_incitatus

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Anyway, my personal suspicion is that I will get better/closer matches based on how many players the match begins with.  Of course I could be totally wrong.  Having said all this, even if my fears are confirmed, then what?  That's the dilemma that I don't have a good answer to :(

 

 

 

Save you some time: Yes.  The fuller the match at the start, the more auto-balance has to work with and the better/closer that match will be.


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#3
Hyginos

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Save you some time: Yes.  The fuller the match at the start, the more auto-balance has to work with and the better/closer that match will be.

 

Though it is all for naught as soon as someone quit/joins after the balancer is done.


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#4
ATX22

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There's no fix for this. The player base was way too small even around 1K concurrent players, so under 300, you reach the realm of "why bother?" with Hawken's MM.

Unless you can convince all the people who are super awesome at playing Hawken to either self segregate or stop playing, this will continue. And it'll probably continue until the player base grows enough to drastically drop the likelihood that you run into them.
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#5
lo_spaghetto

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Sorry 4 u. I don't see a reason to quit just because your team is losing. Not saying that you do, I meant the other players. Tell them to sac up and survive. It's fun to take on a challenge don't you think?


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#6
harmless_kittens

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These I guess the "auto-balance mid-match" feature needs tweaking.  I'd like to see it activate now any time one team is 5 or more kills above the other team, (and maybe switch the leading player on the winning team to the losing team?  But this is probably extreme.  It shouldn't be a "punishment" for doing well.)  There have been so many matches I've been in where "Teams are Unbalanced", but that statement never comes up because both teams are within 2 players of each other.  It's only looking at team size at that point.  In fact I saw one match where a smaller team was stomping our bigger team, and one of the winning team's players left the match, and the game asked for someone on my team (that was getting stomped already) to switch to the winning team!  Seriously?  This is just dumb, in that it doesn't look at the scores at all.

 

We also still have the problem of two or more skilled players forming a "group" so that they can fight on the same team.

 

On a related note, is there an option for a player to switch teams without the prompt?  I assume "No", because this would probably be seriously abused.



#7
TheButtSatisfier

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 I really like matches where scores are within 5 kills of each other.  I think most of us are this way. 

 

Sure, most players would agree with that statement. For me, if a TDM scrimmage or a TPG match that ends with a team score spread of less than 5, then I feel like it was a close match between all 12 players and I'm happy.

 

That's where the good feeling from having a close match ends. In pubs, it's extremely unlikely that a team score will make me happy or sad. A team win or a loss is not a metric that I care about in pubs because there are so many moving variables - most of which you've already described. Instead, I care about my personal score, my kill-death ratio (KDR), my damage output vs sustained ratio, and my shots hit percentage, because those metrics all reflect my performance.

 

If I'm in a pub and I get an opportunity to switch teams, I happily do it every time. That's because a team score doesn't affect any of the metrics I'm interested in, and I get a nifty HC bonus for switching.


Edited by TheButtSatisfier, 16 May 2016 - 07:19 AM.

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#8
Amidatelion

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We also still have the problem of two or more skilled players forming a "group" so that they can fight on the same team.

 

Almost nobody does this. 

 

I say almost because it was clearly happening this weekend and was incredibly disappointing.


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#9
DallasCreeper

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Unless you can convince all the people who are super awesome at playing Hawken to either self segregate or stop playing

This probably isn't going to happen


 

Spoiler

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#10
GGGanjaMan

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Anyway, my personal suspicion is that I will get better/closer matches based on how many players the match begins with.  Of course I could be totally wrong.  Having said all this, even if my fears are confirmed, then what?  That's the dilemma that I don't have a good answer to :(

 

A really big thing for balancing in pubs also involves odd vs even # of players during the ready up part. If you want somewhat fairer stacks, you should be readying up only with an even # of players in the server, since readying up with odd #s causes the matchmaking to skew the teams a bit more.

 

Parties will also screw with matchmaking, whenever there is a significant mmr spread in a server. If the mmr differential is actually pretty even and everyone's mmr matches the 'srd' for example, partying is not a problem. And matchmaking only takes place during that initial ready-up screen, so of course leavers/joiners after that part will skew the balancing forwards. It's also why you'll sometimes see scummy people leave and rejoin after the ready-up portion every game, to sometimes try and skew balance in their favor.


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#11
StubbornPuppet

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This situation just IS the way it IS.  The only possible fixes/work-arounds to it actually have even worse side-effects.

 

A huge game population boost is the only way this fact will ever get any better.  In the meantime, you've just got to try to set a good example and spread the word about waiting for mostly full lobbies before readying up and sticking to the mantra - even when it causes you to sit alone in lobbies for longer.


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To be serious for a moment this is just a joke

 


#12
harmless_kittens

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Yeah, I do wait to "Ready Up Now" until there are an even number of players (6, 8, 10, 12 - as rare as 12 is these days)


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#13
ATX22

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This probably isn't going to happen


I know. But with the current player population, that's basically what it would take.

#14
Call_Me_Ishmael

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...y ou'll sometimes see scummy people leave and rejoin after the ready-up portion every game, to sometimes try and skew balance in their favor.

 

Although, if you leave because you think you'll imbalance the match, then find nothing else in the browser and return/get quickmatched back in, it can give this appearance...


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#15
TheButtSatisfier

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Although, if you leave because you think you'll imbalance the match, then find nothing else in the browser and return/get quickmatched back in, it can give this appearance...

 

Ugh, what am I supposed to do with this pitchfork now?


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#16
PsychedelicGrass

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How about not leaving matches that are unbalanced?


Doing so usually further contributes to the unbalance. And for me personally even if I leave an unbalanced match I may as well go play another game since matchmaker will just place me back in the same server most of the time.


It's a good challenge if you're on the losing team and a chance to use mechs you're terrible at if your team is winning.
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#17
Amidatelion

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And for me personally even if I leave an unbalanced match I may as well go play another game


I fail to see the issue.

There's a reason I only play practices and events anymore.

There are other games out there people. Go play them. Develop your skills in something other than an AOE-spam, turn-capped, massive TTK mech arcade game.

#18
Gyrocopter

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The playerbase is going down, I think. I've just lost interest in the game's limited content, but it seems like many other Hawken veterans are doing the same. 



#19
Kindos7

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There are other games out there people. Go play them. Develop your skills in something other than an AOE-spam, turn-capped, massive TTK mech arcade game.

 

No.


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#20
TheButtSatisfier

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There are other games out there people. Go play them. Develop your skills in something other than an AOE-spam, turn-capped, massive TTK mech arcade game.

 

Yeah! Stop doing something for fun and go learn how to play the harmonica instead, you shitty plebs!


Edited by TheButtSatisfier, 16 May 2016 - 04:39 PM.

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#21
Amidatelion

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Yeah! Stop doing something for fun and go learn how to play the harmonica instead, you shitty plebs!

 

It's not so much "stop playing things for fun" as "if this isn't fun anymore and clearly offers no challenge, try something else."


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#22
CraftyDus

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Yeah! Stop doing something for fun and go learn how to play the harmonica instead, you shitty plebs!

 

As you well know, I keep a Hawken Harmonica on the desk.


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#23
TheButtSatisfier

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As you well know, I keep a Hawken Harmonica on the desk.

 

In all seriousness, I was going to say something like "the flute!" But then happy memories flashed before my eyes / ears of you wailing on the harmonica in TS, and I knew I had to choose that instead.


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#24
FRX23

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you should be readying up only with an even # of players in the server, since readying up with odd #s causes the matchmaking to skew the teams a bit more.

 

This basic thing just skyrockets the MM efficiency then the quality of the match.

It's not hard to understand but most of people doesnt seem to care.

 

Also, even or not, smurfs are the cancer of Hawken those days.


Edited by FRX23, 17 May 2016 - 09:18 AM.


#25
TheButtSatisfier

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I'm not saying this sarcastically:

 

How many of you who say that smurfs are a significant issue with balancing Hawken have gone through the effort to identify the MMR of the supposed smurf accounts you are encountering? Because most "smurfs" that I recognize in matches are actually alt accounts, and since they have similar MMR values to their main, they have the same effect on matchmaking and balance.

 

I'm interested in confirming that smurfing is an epidemic-level issue that is negatively affecting match balance, and it's not just people saying, "Man, that player is really good and I don't recognize them / I know that's a smurf of 'X' player, and so that must be why this match is so lopsided!"


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#26
ATX22

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I'm not saying this sarcastically:

 

How many of you who say that smurfs are a significant issue with balancing Hawken have gone through the effort to identify the MMR of the supposed smurf accounts you are encountering? Because most "smurfs" that I recognize in matches are actually alt accounts, and since they have similar MMR values to their main, they have the same effect on matchmaking and balance.

 

I'm interested in confirming that smurfing is an epidemic-level issue that is negatively affecting match balance, and it's not just people saying, "Man, that player is really good and I don't recognize them / I know that's a smurf of 'X' player, and so that must be why this match is so lopsided!"

 

There's currently 5 - 10 full / near full servers running right now, all it takes is a handful in a game that's gotten to be as small as Hawken for it to be an epidemic-level issue.

 

Smurfing itself, eh, probably not the issue so much as newer / lower skilled players being lumped together in a server only to have high skilled players MM-panic dropped into their midst. 



#27
coldform

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I'm not saying this sarcastically:

How many of you who say that smurfs are a significant issue with balancing Hawken have gone through the effort to identify the MMR of the supposed smurf accounts you are encountering? Because most "smurfs" that I recognize in matches are actually alt accounts, and since they have similar MMR values to their main, they have the same effect on matchmaking and balance.

I'm interested in confirming that smurfing is an epidemic-level issue that is negatively affecting match balance, and it's not just people saying, "Man, that player is really good and I don't recognize them / I know that's a smurf of 'X' player, and so that must be why this match is so lopsided!"


I think the true issues is education - helping those that think that all alts are smurfs undrstand that this is not the case.

Also, asking questions directed towards the pilot helps:
"Is this an alt?"
"Is its mmr on par with your main?"

Just don't ask who is piloting, and I bet you get honest answers.

Except from that filthy casual silverfire.

I like going against the best of any game I play. Helps you in the long run n motivates u to do more. Always room for improvement not failure

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#28
harmless_kittens

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OK, here is what I have seen and flat-out asked, except I'm not allowed to use names, apparently.

 

We have a match where every other player on both teams is scoring below 200 points, except on one team one player has between 700 and 800 points.  Not surprisingly the final scores are way out of whack, and the match likely didn't even go a full 10 minutes.  Players on both sides are furious, and many leave the match.  I hang around for another match to see if it repeats.  It does.  I run an "srd" and it shoots back an MMR range of around 1400-1600.  I ask the person in question "So how long have you been playing Hawken?"  And I get one of three responses.  1) "I just started playing today!"  (Forgive me, but I consider this a lie, and I will immediately leave the match.  I just don't see how that's possible.)  2) No response.  They'll reply to other comments like "GG", but they refuse to answer this simple question.  Again, I assume this is a "smurf" that doesn't want to just admit it, or maybe a hacker, and I leave the match.  3) "I've been playing a long time, and this one of my alts or smurfs.  My main is at ____ MMR."  So this person is beating us badly (whether intentionally or unintentionally), but they are "man enough" to admit what they are doing.  I have more respect for people like this, and will often hang around even though I get stomped on.

 

So how often do I see a match with scores like this?  Maybe 1 match in 5.  This means at least once per hour of playing.  And in those matches, I'd say that only about another 1 in 5 are the honest, answer # 3 people.  This is why weaker players like myself get so frustrated - the frequency of how often this occurs, and the frequent liars and "silent types".


Edited by harmless_kittens, 17 May 2016 - 10:26 AM.

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#29
StubbornPuppet

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^Yes, Kittens, that's about the norm.

 

I have to say though, I'd have trouble finding an online game these days where the same doesn't occur just as often, even with a large player base. :(


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To be serious for a moment this is just a joke

 


#30
Flifang

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Hawken taught me how to play Cowbell. 

 

Alt accounts are for scrubz. Alt mechs are where it's at.



#31
Hyginos

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Note that RunaPanda will typically claim to be a new player on whatever new smurf despite having an easily recognizable set of habits.


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#32
TheButtSatisfier

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@Kittens: good and detailed feedback. Thanks for taking the time to post it.

 

I'm all for sharing poor experiences in Hawken, because that's one of the best ways to (hopefully, and yes, maybe never) get a problem addressed. The more we can do that with demonstrably objective data and/or practices, the better.


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#33
Epsilon_Knight

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OK, here is what I have seen and flat-out asked, except I'm not allowed to use names, apparently.

 

We have a match where every other player on both teams is scoring below 200 points, except on one team one player has between 700 and 800 points.  Not surprisingly the final scores are way out of whack, and the match likely didn't even go a full 10 minutes.  Players on both sides are furious, and many leave the match.  I hang around for another match to see if it repeats.  It does.  I run an "srd" and it shoots back an MMR range of around 1400-1600.  I ask the person in question "So how long have you been playing Hawken?"  And I get one of three responses.  1) "I just started playing today!"  (Forgive me, but I consider this a lie, and I will immediately leave the match.  I just don't see how that's possible.)  2) No response.  They'll reply to other comments like "GG", but they refuse to answer this simple question.  Again, I assume this is a "smurf" that doesn't want to just admit it, or maybe a hacker, and I leave the match.  3) "I've been playing a long time, and this one of my alts or smurfs.  My main is at ____ MMR."  So this person is beating us badly (whether intentionally or unintentionally), but they are "man enough" to admit what they are doing.  I have more respect for people like this, and will often hang around even though I get stomped on.

 

So how often do I see a match with scores like this?  Maybe 1 match in 5.  This means at least once per hour of playing.  And in those matches, I'd say that only about another 1 in 5 are the honest, answer # 3 people.  This is why weaker players like myself get so frustrated - the frequency of how often this occurs, and the frequent liars and "silent types".

 

I'll preface this by saying it was probably at the end of a string of frustrating matches for you, but the one time I've seen you in-game, it was on this account (Epsilon_Knight), which I say only to make it clear I wasn't smurfing (for the easily confused, like Amid).  I did end up top-scoring that game, despite getting thrown in by the matchmaker with about 6 minutes to go.  After a few minutes when the scores began to spread, you apparently did an SRD check, said the range in chat, and immediately quit the game with several minutes remaining.

 

Fun fact, all of us have to deal with smurfs and hackers.  If they're 2200 MMR players with 1600 MMR, they'll be put on a favorable team AND, often enough, get an underdog bonus, leading them to outscore even 2400+ players, which is disappointing because it inaccurately modifies the MMR of everyone else.  If you're on the opposite team, you'll tend to lose the match.  I just roll with it.  I'll ask who their main is, most of the time they don't reply. At least they aren't hacking.

 

With the hackers, unless you're willing to die to them enough to catch snapping on first person kill cam (which itself takes a modified INI), or play Predator and observe for snapping/wall hacks for several matches, and record undeniable evidence of cheating, and submit a support ticket, you're pretty much out of luck.  If you do, the botter can come back easily enough anyway.  That's terrible, and needs to be a dev priority if they ever come back.  Current system is trash.

 

As to the "first day" liars, you'll find those in every game.  1% of these may be god tier players from other games, most aren't.  They thrive on either making other players feel bad that they can't take on a "newbie", or else thrive on misrepresenting their skill in search of appreciation.  "Wow you're really good for day one!"  I have come across gaggles of them in Smite and other games.  This isn't a problem that can be solved without charging a person substantial money each time they create a new account, people even pay 5-20 dollars to create accounts on Eve Online, and that won't be happening here.


Edited by Epsilon_Knight, 17 May 2016 - 11:55 AM.

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#34
_Valefor_

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I wish I could play a match at all. I am a new player and all servers say "This server is locked because it is outside your skill level."



#35
ATX22

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I wish I could play a match at all. I am a new player and all servers say "This server is locked because it is outside your skill level."

 

Try the match maker queue instead of the server browser then.  It'll panic and plop you in the "best available" server, which probably will be way outside your MMR range, but such is Hawken.



#36
angryhampster

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My matches are always balanced because I purposely feed to keep the game very close.  At the end of the game, i like seeing people say, "WOW, THAT WAS AMAZING!!, GG".

 

Gotta be a good Samaritan and balance the game yourself, whether if you have to feed or kill, jus to keep the game looking like it's a balanced game.

 

I do this on every 1/3 games.


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#37
harmless_kittens

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I wish I could play a match at all. I am a new player and all servers say "This server is locked because it is outside your skill level."

 

This is valid point of another barrier that new players will face.  Yes, there are ways around it, but I see this too.  In my case, I can often go a whole night (3 hours or so) and not see ONE 3 Star match for my skill level.  2 Stars are semi-common, but the most common are the 1 Star Matches for me.  So Hawken's basically telling me, in advance, "Everyone playing now is better than you.  Good luck."  I'm not faulting the system.  Like we say, "It is what it is."  But I can see how even the "star system" can be depressing to new players when they can't find one match in their skill range.



#38
Brother3J

Brother3J

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There is one in game technique that will counter smurfs and hackers....TEAMWORK.  I know its an outdated thing, but it works.  I know that its impossible in a pug match to have an organized team but here is a trick that worked for me... When in an imbalanced match don't ask for help be the help.   That's right you be the wing-man.  When you see a teammate in trouble defend them.  Focus fire is the great equalizer.  I was a gunner on an LAV-25 in the 1st Gulf War.  My platoon ran into a line of tanks,  if it hadn't been for my wing man and the tanks not dumping their external fuel tanks I would not be here.  

 

Hawken is the closest gaming experience to the war I have found.  Hang on let me explain...  Now its not anything like real war but it fires the same neurons in the brain. Hawken, once you have a couple hundred hours in, and have trained your brain to play, at a competent level, you get addicted.   Friends there is no drug like combat.  The difference here is there are no negative consequences if you die.   No pain, dismemberment or gore. 

 

So why are you all bitching about the game needs this and the game needs that....Because you love the game and its addicting if you put the time in.  You all have and are doing that.  That's why your all so impatient for the game to be worked on.  This game shouldn't have any players.  It was vapor ware, left for dead, slowly bleeding out into the wasteland of the forgotten games.

 

Give reloaded some time.  Hawken is unique, it's cruel and unforgiving, and filled with a bunch of asshats.  Good things are happening you  just can't see them yet.  keep the faith....

 

If you are in an unbalanced match, so what.  The only Kill/death ratio that matters is the one in real life and I hope most of you are 0/0.

Use the odds against you to improve your individual performance.  Stop worrying about who wins or loses just play.  You get stomped by a cheat or smurf.  Follow them, watch were they go and how they move, even if you die 29 times.  Your score or mmr means nothing right now. Just keep playing, don't take it too seriously but don't quit if you die or your frustrated.  Take a break now and then but keep learning and practicing.  Join the folks at War Wednesday you will learn more in one night then a month of pug'n. 

 

It is my opinion that Hawken is not a game for casuals.  Sure it's easy to pick up and play but damn hard to master.  You all who still play this game and stick with it ... soon will be the day you are rewarded handsomely;)  

 

Cheers 



#39
harmless_kittens

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But MMR DOES mean something right now, doesn't it?  If I go 0/29 as suggested, and my MMR tanks low enough, then even these 1 Star matches will become outside of my player range, won't they?



#40
DallasCreeper

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Well, yes, but you can still be put into the 1-Star matches if there are no matches available. 


 

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Ridding the world of evil, one Berzerker at a time.





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