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#1
CrimsonKaim

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This was the most ridiculous scenario I have ever had in my entire Hawken life.

 

 

Siege game, 2 star rated server, one of the rare ones.

 

- 3v3 at the beginning, we were ownign hard (1. level of imabalance, nothign special).

- Some people join, 4v5, still we are winning.

- 3 people leave now it is 4v2. Guess who gets force switched again. Yes, FakeName*.

- So I am on the losing team now but managed to get my team to the winning track

- Some players join. it is a 4v4

- They see the incredible unskileld team they just got put in and leave.

- 4v2 now and I am still on the winning team whic hwas the losing team before.

- Teams are unbalanced message appears. Noone gets force switched until the end of the match which lasted for another 5 minutes.

 

 

This is another example of how broken the MM is. I suppose the MM wanetd to switch me again but due to the fact that I already got force switched, I can not be switched again. No alternatives were found by the MM and it was too dumb to balance a 4v2.

 

 

Remove this MM and bring back Team Switch button. Less rage for everyone.


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#2
Aregon

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Matchmaking works, if the game had more people. And even with the button there is always the human factor.


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#3
Guns_N_Rozer

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We need manual team switch button
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#4
DM30

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Autobalance doesn't force switch people if a game is more than half over, so people have to volunteer in that case. Obviously no one did in that second case (not blaming you, you already got force-switched once).

But how is people leaving the matchmaker's fault? How will removing matchmaking change that situation at all (other than possibly making it worse by causing skill gaps even higher than what we see today?)

Manual team switch button was convenient but it was removed because people could use it to stack teams with their friends. Still, since parties don't get their own queue that's still a thing. So, may as well have a team switch button for when it does help.

But, volunteering to team switch is essentially the same thing anyway, so if people didn't volunteer in the case you described then they probably aren't going to use a manual button either. So, again, it isn't going to change much.

Edited by DM30, 18 April 2015 - 05:14 AM.

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#5
Siamenis

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In my experience, it isn't rare that no one decides to balance the match by joining the other team, even with rewards in place. I think an external system that cares for balance during a match is actually preferable to human factor which is dependent on our good will/generosity - it simply isn't reliable. 



#6
Pure_Amazing

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Before I say anything, just want to make it clear that in my head there are 2 systems at the play here, the Matchmaker and the Auto balance, i don't think I need to explain what each of them do.

 

Anyway...

 

Matchmaker does work well.

 

Auto-Balance does work well.

 

I believe that the problem is that the at the moment we have the Matchmaker mixed with the server browser, thus making it easy for people to end up where they really shouldn't be. This obviously makes the Auto-balancers job a lot harder since it has to contend with a much higher MMR range.

 

I believe the solution is to separate the Matchmaking servers and the servers found on the server browser. that way nothing is interfering with Matchmakings choices and the Auto-Balance won't have to deal with a growing MMR range. It will take a bit of work I'm sure but we do already have a system that is similar to what I am thinking about and that is the party matchmaker.

 

Also the lack of players doesn't help either, but hopefully that should slowly fix itself (Hopefully, fingers crossed). Also most of us can agree MMR could use some improving as well.

 

Anyway these are just my thoughts, take what you wish from them.

 

Oh and I forgot, a Team Switch button still isn't a bad idea, would make things more ideal for setting up scrims when not using a private server with admin controls.


Edited by Pure_Amazing, 18 April 2015 - 06:17 AM.

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#7
Hyginos

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This is another example of how broken the MM is.

 

No. This is an example of how any algorithm can break if you don't let it work.

 

The glicko system is mathematically sound, and it isn't hard to crank out some psuedo code that will find the optimal solution for breaking a group of numbers into two teams that have the closest average or total. I know a lot of people may not respect the old devs, but this kind of math isn't hard to find implemented and documented ad nauseum.

 

If you join or leave a match in progress, you have modified the result of the algorithm, thus creating what is likely a non-optimal solution. Additionally, due to the low player base, the optimal solution for a server may not actually be that good. That is, there is a limit to how balanced a server can be when the MM only has 50 or so players to choose from. The problem here is not that the math behind the system is broken.

 

Even if MM was not mathematically sound, removing it would not improve the situation. You think you would get better results by throwing players in servers at random or at their leisure? You throw in a team switch button and you will get team stacking.

 

IMO if you want to 'fix' the match maker, what you really need to do is provide greater incentive to stay in a match. That and increase the player base, but that's not exactly something you can do with a hotfix.


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#8
Mergaz

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The MM does not work because there are not enough players for it to work properly ... The game just can not have a high playerbase to have balance in MM. Accept it.


Edited by Mergaz, 18 April 2015 - 06:21 AM.


#9
CrimsonKaim

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The MM does not work because there are not enough players for it to work properly ... The game just can not have a high playerbase to have balance in MM. Accept it.

 

If you have a 4v2. Isn't the solution obvious?

Additionally, if you have 1000 players instead of 100. Would that increase the maximum amount of players per room?


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#10
Mergaz

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If you have a 4v2. Isn't the solution obvious?

Additionally, if you have 1000 players instead of 100. Would that increase the maximum amount of players per room?

The change was not made cuz the time to finishing the game and nobody wants to go to the losing team in the final five minutes.. Moreover, there was not players to complement externally the game.

 

PS: The matches should have only begin MM in my opinion and if a player leaves that are reported equal to other F2P games.


Edited by Mergaz, 18 April 2015 - 07:35 AM.


#11
M4st0d0n

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Facepalm.



#12
Sp3ctrr

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On the bright side, you got 50HC or thereabouts! Doesn't that make it all better?


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#13
comic_sans

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Additionally, if you have 1000 players instead of 100. Would that increase the maximum amount of players per room?

 

wat

 

No, having more players would mean the matchmaker would have more people of closely matched skill to choose from the total population when creating a lobby.


Edited by comic_sans, 18 April 2015 - 09:46 AM.

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#14
NLsandman

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@ OP

 

You switch but most players do not switch to the loosing team, I'm in a gaming clan,

we have bf3 servers and cs:s servers, we use aggressive game balancers so games

are very balanced, those games are a ot of fun but if you read the chat then you

will see lots of complaints from players that get switched.

 

With out MM teams will get stacked, 1 team with good players and 1 team with bad players who constant

keep leaving the game, this is very common in the battlefield servers, I don't think you want

this in hawken.



#15
teeth_03

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Sounds like another issue the daily bonus is causing. If you join a game with no difference in rewards if you win or lose, why leave? But if you need to win to get a bonus, why stay on the losing team?

Remove daily bonus, give a slight increase in normal earnings, and see what changes.

#16
Anichkov3

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I do not understand this perturbation comrade. Button to switch the worst solution for matchmaking. Players will constantly abuse it (as before). The game still has the opportunity to move to another team. What you are not happy then? You will probably want to choose what you will command, right? You always want to "play" in the best team, and do not care about balance?


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#17
RedVan

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I do not understand this perturbation comrade. Button to switch the worst solution for matchmaking. Players will constantly abuse it (as before). The game still has the opportunity to move to another team. What you are not happy then? You will probably want to choose what you will command, right? You always want to "play" in the best team, and do not care about balance?


How can you abuse button switch if it's only available when teams are imbalanced...

Edited by RedVan, 21 April 2015 - 02:41 AM.


#18
Panzermanathod

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Sounds like another issue the daily bonus is causing. If you join a game with no difference in rewards if you win or lose, why leave? But if you need to win to get a bonus, why stay on the losing team?
 

 

If I want to get the daily bonus and I am on a losing team, I don't quit. Also, the only reason I don't switch at will is because F8 is Volume up by default and I don't feel like remapping it to some other key.



#19
Anichkov3

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You can abuse button switch if it's only available when teams are imbalanced...

Such as Match 3 vs. 4. It can not in principle be balanced. If the overall MMR of three players equal to the overall MMR of four players. What in your opinion will win? In my opinion it is obvious that the more experienced players play without appreciable resistance. And in the button will have no effect on the balance. Once a player from the losing team wants to go to the winners - immediately as soon as possible.

Therefore, the presence of switching buttons - NO, NO, NO


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#20
CrimsonKaim

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Thing is I prefare to have no balance at all instead of unfair balances.
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#21
Epsilon_Knight

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On the bright side, you got 50HC or thereabouts! Doesn't that make it all better?

 

Team Balancer bonus is actually 200 HC right now, and that IS being doubled by the 2x HC this past weekend.  You can only get the bonus once per match, though, so FakeName would have received 400 HC for the trouble of being switched.

 

Honestly they should update the text "Press F8 to Volunteer to Switch Teams (200 HC Bonus)" or similar, a lot more people would pound F8


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#22
teeth_03

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If I want to get the daily bonus and I am on a losing team, I don't quit. Also, the only reason I don't switch at will is because F8 is Volume up by default and I don't feel like remapping it to some other key.


I see a lot of players leave if a game is really lop sided or near the end if losing regardless.

I would like to see the daily bonus taken out of the equation to see if this still happens.

#23
RedVan

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Such as Match 3 vs. 4. It can not in principle be balanced. If the overall MMR of three players equal to the overall MMR of four players. What in your opinion will win? In my opinion it is obvious that the more experienced players play without appreciable resistance. And in the button will have no effect on the balance. Once a player from the losing team wants to go to the winners - immediately as soon as possible.
Therefore, the presence of switching buttons - NO, NO, NO


MMR don't mean jack fuzzy bunny (for the most part).

Anyway. If 3v4, it's about as well balanced as it's going to get. The current balancer won't even recognize it as imbalanced even if the score makes it obvious. Giving a button switch in such a scenario will allow the players to determine what the best way to balance would be. Something that cannot be done simply by looking at MMR.

And then in the obvious situations of imbalance, 4v6, etc... It'll allow players to decide who would be the best fit for the other team.

#24
EM1O

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What FakeName sed....

I have chronically sucked at this game, even tho I love the hell outa it.

Then there are the ones that are overly concerned with crashing their MMR. If my 1780mmr smurf can only match up to 1 or 2 stars, and herokuapp or scrimbot srd lists the server I just joined as 1550 avg, i'm on the losing team, no prospect of win bonus, and getting pwned with a <1.0 kdr.

These are all incentives to getthefsckouta here. I'm either stubborn or whatever.

I'll volunteer in a heartbeat to help balance the match and give a better game experience from the start.

But if MM force-switches me after I've tried to put my best into my team, I'm gone. Immediately. No discussion. I don't play that fuzzybunny

 

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#25
Panzermanathod

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I see a lot of players leave if a game is really lop sided or near the end if losing regardless.

I would like to see the daily bonus taken out of the equation to see if this still happens.

 

There *is* such a thing called rage quitting. People'll get angry at team behavior or what not and and while I'm sure the daily bonus might be a part of it, I don't think it's removal will make such a large dent. If people do want the Daily Bonus (as in, extra HC) then really what is the point of quitting the match early to get no HC?



#26
CrimsonKaim

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Just today another game. Really one of the most disgusting. 

Noobs, noobs everywhere ... in my team ofcourse.

 

Remove the damn MM already and let humans do the work.

 

The game ended where it started. I could see the outcome just by looking at the names in the match. 

At this point I want to honor EPA. Yes EPA, the one you guys are always flaming that much, he (or maybe she, who knows?) was the only one, the only one who didn't search for the AA at the corner of the damn map. EPA was the only one who tried to capture the AA while everyone else who relies on teamplay and stuff just sit on the highway on Front Line and fail to take out a camper SS 2v1. 

 

This clearly shows again how huge the skill gap between palyers within a single room can be. 1000 MMR difference doesn't seem to occur that rarely.

We even lost at 6v5. And then another player joined the enemy team. He just sat down and relaxed, enjoyed the free win. HE mentioned at the beginning what was happening right now (a total disaster). 

 

Guess what we lost.

 

At some point I just sat down and asked my team not to try again to do anything, 'cause I wanted this match to end as fast as possible. 

But still, they tried (and failed so hard, so damn hard) and delayed the outcome.

 

 

Now, after this match ended I can say, they lost, not me, nor EPA. I have my good KDR, delivered a good amount of EU and tried my best but if the team just experienced that there is an AA in Siege mode, it is simply impossible, without any exception to carry these players.

 

 

 

 

No balance is still better than a shitty balance.

 

 

Good evening


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#27
StubbornPuppet

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Asking your team to give up and do nothing?  Really?  And being mad at players because they are new to the game... jeesh.  There's a lot more to life than winning a video game.

 

The match making works just fine, but other parts of the game could use a few tweaks to prevent PEOPLE from MANUALLY screwing it up.

  • Parties should be broken up onto separate teams
  • Matches should require 6 player min to start
  • Quitting in the middle of a match should be penalized with 4 minutes of not being able to join any match (and perhaps an XP penalty too.)
  • More players on Hawken (needs advertising and word of mouth)

If you think it's terrible how huge the skill gap is between players in a single match, just see how big that would be with no match making in place.


To be serious for a moment this is just a joke

 


#28
DM30

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How can you abuse button switch if it's only available when teams are imbalanced...


I realize this post is 10 days old, but replying anyway. Example:

4v4 match in progress, one team winning by a decent score.
Player joins and gets placed on losing team to bring the match more into balance.
New player uses manual team switch button to get on the winning team when they see the scores.

That's only one example of abusing manual team switch that I saw a LOT of when the button was available.

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#29
brackets

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I experienced the game with no matchmaker back in January when my MMR grew legs and wandered off somewhere, to be replaced with 0 after playing a match. There's actually a picture of Amidatelion with 70 MMR. I can confirm, balance was so much worse than it is now. Please keep matchmaker around, but refine how it deals with mid-game joins and team-swaps.


Edited by brackets, 01 May 2015 - 08:43 PM.

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#30
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#31
Grollourdo

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Well.... I think the people who switch trams should get a bit more stuff in the end....

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#32
crockrocket

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I think it's telling that most matches are well balanced, rather than similar to the anecdote given. One bad apple DOESN'T spoil the bunch.


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#33
Xacius

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I experienced the game with no matchmaker back in January when my MMR grew legs and wandered off somewhere, to be replaced with 0 after playing a match. There's actually a picture of Amidatelion with 70 MMR. I can confirm, balance was so much worse than it is now. Please keep matchmaker around, but refine how it deals with mid-game joins and team-swaps.

^ definitely.  

 

Once a match starts, even if games are completely unbalanced, the match will continue so long as both sides have an even number of players.  This means that a game that starts as a stomp will often stay as a stomp unless 2 or more people on the losing team quit.  There are a couple factors that can cause this, but I find that the major one is as follows: 

 

An uneven number of players ready up in a lobby.  The matchmaker balances ( X vs. (X+1) ) players the best way it can, i.e. weighing the MMR of the sides and sorting players based on the most balanced matchup (so MMR of team X is as close as possible to MMR of team (X+1) ).

 

After the match starts, another player joins team X, completely skewing the MMR balance in favor of that team.  More often than not, this results in an unbalanced stomp.  


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#34
?FTD? eXeon

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I do enjoy the ingame team balancer but, sometimes I think this game would be so much better if the noobs weren't so excluded from the more experienced players allowing them to learn from first hand experience much quicker than if they were to face other inexperienced players. Is hawken really that difficult that after seeing what a good player is doing the average player couldn't figure it out, it might be and because I'm so accustomed to it I don't respect how much there is to learn. Although I do not think we should get rid of the matchmaker, pretty much soley for the fact that I find it far more exhilarating to fight a team of highly skilled players than I do your average joe.

 

I think that the current matchmaker is absolutely horrible and if we want more balanced matches, a few things need to be redone. Firstly games need to end and kick players back out to the main menu, forcing players to requeue. The matchmaker should take into account all players in games and in queue, based on your mmr you have to wait till X players of similar, the closest possible online at the time in some cases, requeue after their games have ended or they login and queue up. The server browser needs to be unable to access public servers and remain a way of utilizing the new private servers well see popping up soon. Until a game is finished players may only rejoin the game they were last in to prevent players from leaving, repeat offenders need to see a timeout period to prevent abuse. There should be a warning of this time out clearly displayed to players before accepting a queue into a new game with expected average time of most games of the type they've been chosen to play in by the matchmaker based on their selection of game modes they chose to queue for. Oh, and most importantly players cannot join games currently in progress unlessand their addition to any team wouldn't unsettle the current mmr balance of the game as is, I'd much rather wait 10 minutes for a game full of players in my range than play vs players much less skilled than me.


Edited by ImBadAtChoosingNames, 03 May 2015 - 02:14 AM.

Fix The Delay


#35
CrimsonKaim

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Asking your team to give up and do nothing? Really? And being mad at players because they are new to the game... jeesh. There's a lot more to life than winning a video game.

The match making works just fine, but other parts of the game could use a few tweaks to prevent PEOPLE from MANUALLY screwing it up.

  • Parties should be broken up onto separate teams
  • Matches should require 6 player min to start
  • Quitting in the middle of a match should be penalized with 4 minutes of not being able to join any match (and perhaps an XP penalty too.)
  • More players on Hawken (needs advertising and word of mouth)
If you think it's terrible how huge the skill gap is between players in a single match, just see how big that would be with no match making in place.

Yes, a surrender function would be nice, would use it quite often.
However, tbese players were not new, as said, I could see the outcome looking at their names. That means I know their gameplay and average skill.
Why shall I bother wasting my time in a match where the outcome is crystal clear? I have better things to do.

No matchmaker will result in completely random matches but this is better as a matchmaker that fails, that means that the matchmaker can be adjusted or improved but as long as it does it job not good enough, it should be disabled. Zumans can do the work wheather they abuse it or not, I don't care, but just stop making unbalanced matches or force switch me when I don't want to.

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#36
FRX23

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Matchmaking works as intended : during the preparation of the match it works pretty nicely.

 

But when the match is in progress that's an other deal.

 

The cleverest solution is to wait in a corner when teams are unven till one or some join.

 

Maybe a 'grey' (disabled) launch button is the easiest way to even teams in that situation.






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