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what it's like to be a "former pro GOW player"


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#1
CraftyDus

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how console fps's approach aim assist

 


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#2
Amidatelion

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Meanwhile here we are trying to lead sabots at variable pings and landing blind tows from across the map based on hacks like "map knowledge" and "travel speed."


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#3
FEF-FEFington

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""""""""""SKILL""""""""""


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#4
ticklemyiguana

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These are literally cheats.


Edited by ticklemyiguana, 28 October 2015 - 06:22 PM.

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#5
comic_sans

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These are literally cheats.

 

I remember playing halo CE on PC and wondering why they left such a thing in from the console port since it was totally unnecessary for someone with a mouse.


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#6
Amidatelion

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I remember playing halo CE on PC and wondering why they left such a thing in from the console port since it was totally unnecessary for someone with a mouse.

 

And then

 

Halo 2

- or -

Why We Can't Stomp Console Nubs Anymore (Ever)


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#7
eth0

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And then

 

Halo 2

- or -

Why We Can't Stomp Console Nubs Anymore (Ever)

1v1 me controllers only


Pubstomping is a whole different strategic discussion, however, and usually just becomes an exploration of the ethics of dumpstering randos.

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#8
americanbrit14

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ahh halo, this is why i never play your multiplayer seriously. or at all really


Edited by Jason Endrago, 28 October 2015 - 09:05 PM.

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#9
dorobo

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I keep hearing about this thing halo.. now I know.


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#10
Aregon

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But when I use this it's "cheating" and "unfair" and "I don't know their mum". Bloody scrubs.
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CRITICAL ASSIST

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#11
Dawn_of_Ash

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I truly do not understand why console game have so much aim-assist. To those who say it's because controllers are not as precise as mouses obviously do not understand that on console everyone uses controllers (although I guess there could be a way to use a mouse). it makes more sense with computer games than consoles because one person is using a mouse while another could be using a controller. And even then, I use a controller in Hawken and I was still able to dominate Hestoned.


Edited by Dawn_of_Ash, 28 October 2015 - 11:28 PM.


#12
dorobo

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#13
CrimsonKaim

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Complete bullsh*t. Just have a straight, fixed aim with a set inaccuracy per weapon and it's fine.. But no, noob player from the 21st century have an inability to accept loss (in basically any game) so  they need to get everything in order to have a chance of winning.

 

This is simply pathetic and every supporting system that removes skill demand is unneccessary. I am not going to say that games like Battlefield or Hawken don't have this mechanic (well I know that a slug rifle can shoot up to 90° into the center of your aim, even when standing 0.5m away from your target) since I don't know.

 

But oh-my-f*cking-good. How deep can a player base fall to be in need for this BS?


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#14
Aregon

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But oh-my-f*cking-good. How deep can a player base fall to be in need for this BS?

Low enough to play games on console instead of PC?

 

Praise Gaben.


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CRITICAL ASSIST

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#15
Amidatelion

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I truly do not understand why console game have so much aim-assist. To those who say it's because controllers are not as precise as mouses obviously do not understand that on console everyone uses controllers (although I guess there could be a way to use a mouse). it makes more sense with computer games than consoles because one person is using a mouse while another could be using a controller. And even then, I use a controller in Hawken and I was still able to dominate Hestoned.


I think it's because consoles have always had some manner of aim assist, so their player-base has gotten used to it and/or demands it. Controller fidelity now is a lot more precise than it was ten years ago, but they still have to overcome the back-to-zero problems of an analog stick or the absolute fuzzy bunny granularity a traditional d-pad gives.

If Valve's touchpad controller takes off, encouraging copycat console attempts, a huge chunk of those problems will be alleviated, eliminating the snap-back of sticks and giving near perfect 360 d-pad abilities. That's assuming console FPSes could even deal with that level of hardware change, since they are so comfortable in their overcompensated software state. It would take another triple-A game changer to shake them out of it, I think, and who knows what or when that'd be.

But even then, there's the problem of human hardware. Two thumbs and a fuzzy bunny collection of buttons on a 5x4 block of plastic is never going to be as precise as a laser sensor attached to a wrist on, conservatively, extremely conservatively, 6 inches of flat surface with a button lay out that CANNOT interfere with movement.

In that light, I think part of it is an attempt to bring precision to something that we instinctively know is inferior. Anyone playing a console game has used a mouse and, even outside shooters, will know that a mouse is easier for navigation. Have you TRIED using an uncompensated controller to manipulate a cursor or even a tabbed menu? Probably not in recent memory because a UI like that hasn't existed since the PS1. It's less efficient, less accurate and less versatile. All these additions are attempts to overcome that. The snapping and magnetism? Sure, we immediately ID that as a cheat, but that's how cursors have worked on consoles for years. From a certain perspective, it's a natural progression.

A controller is a garbage piece of equipment to play FPSes on. Whether or not one can get used to it, it is OBJECTIVELY WORSE than a mouse and keyboard and very few people raised in a console FPS environment will ever try anything else because of the growing preponderance of controller options on PC. But they will demand a similar level of precision from their set-up because that's what you NEED in an FPS, and so companies find ever increasingly more sophisticated, convoluted ways of delivering that.

Sorry for rant and if I made no sense, early morning commutes are the suck.

And even then, I use a controller in Hawken and I was still able to dominate Hestoned.


Also, I was gonna leave this alone because I like you so please understand this is a criticism of the argument not you, but as a defense of controllers, this sucks. Dominating people in Hawken is easy, you just get a kill. I've dominated top-10 players more times than I can count. Outscoring them is what matters and thats not going to happen with a controller because at that level you need on-par, accurate equipment and the imperceptible amount of time needed to adjust direction on a controller is gonna cost you the race against hestoned or Dave.

There is one high-level player that plays with a controller and while he performs INCREDIBLY WELL with it, it's despite it, not because of it. And because he's used to it. Pretty sure if he were used to a mouse and keyboard Xployt would be the best sniper on his team, hands down.

tl; dr its all comfort's fault.

#16
Dawn_of_Ash

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Also, I was gonna leave this alone because I like you so please understand this is a criticism of the argument not you, but as a defense of controllers, this sucks. Dominating people in Hawken is easy, you just get a kill. I've dominated top-10 players more times than I can count. Outscoring them is what matters and thats not going to happen with a controller because at that level you need on-par, accurate equipment and the imperceptible amount of time needed to adjust direction on a controller is gonna cost you the race against hestoned or Dave.

 

Not gonna lie, I just really wanted to brag that I dominated Hestoned (it's a big deal for me, okay?). x) As far as that goes, I completely agree with mouse being far better for FPS - strangely enough I use keyboard and mouse for every other game but Hawken but I've spent so long with the controller that I've gotten too used to it and I currently don't have time to re-teach myself. 

 

Also, I take no offense at the comment - I'm really not that good I've come to accept that. I'm not close to being good and I'm mediocre when it comes to my ranking in AU. Even if it was Hestoned I dominated, it was only achieved by him coming to Australia, me assassinating him with my Infil when he was in low health and me kill-stealing Lioot. It was pretty clear that he was more skilled than me.


Edited by Dawn_of_Ash, 29 October 2015 - 04:36 AM.


#17
Hyginos

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There is one high-level player that plays with a controller and while he performs INCREDIBLY WELL with it, it's despite it, not because of it. And because he's used to it. Pretty sure if he were used to a mouse and keyboard Xployt would be the best sniper on his team, hands down.

 

I think the only reason Xployt can get away with using a controller is the turn rate cap. In another arena shooter with an uncapped turn speed, inability to flick the camera around would be crippling. Hawken is fairly forgiving to controller players.

 

The most disheartening thing for me about this bullet magnetism auto aim nonsense in Halo is that the series' multiplayer was structured in a way that could have been a legitimately solid Esport on PC. Instead of being a slower, easier to watch version of Quake though it caught a bad case of consoleitus and became a casual game. This saddens me.


Edited by Hyginos, 29 October 2015 - 05:00 AM.

MFW Howken

 

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#18
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I would like to know where this clip is from.


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#19
nepacaka

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it is just because these console nubs play on joystick! did you try play on joystick? I tried play on joystick once, it was awful.

how console fps's approach aim assist

 


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#20
CraftyDus

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Controller fidelity now is a lot more precise than it was ten years ago, but they still have to overcome the back-to-zero problems of an analog stick or the absolute fuzzy bunny granularity a traditional d-pad gives.

If Valve's touchpad controller takes off, encouraging copycat console attempts, a huge chunk of those problems will be alleviated, eliminating the snap-back of sticks and giving near perfect 360 d-pad abilities. That's assuming console FPSes could even deal with that level of hardware change, since they are so comfortable in their overcompensated software state. It would take another triple-A game changer to shake them out of it, I think, and who knows what or when that'd be.

But even then, there's the problem of human hardware. Two thumbs and a fuzzy bunny collection of buttons on a 5x4 block of plastic is never going to be as precise as a laser sensor attached to a wrist on, conservatively, extremely conservatively, 6 inches of flat surface with a button lay out that CANNOT interfere with movement.

In that light, I think part of it is an attempt to bring precision to something that we instinctively know is inferior. Anyone playing a console game has used a mouse and, even outside shooters, will know that a mouse is easier for navigation. Have you TRIED using an uncompensated controller to manipulate a cursor or even a tabbed menu? Probably not in recent memory because a UI like that hasn't existed since the PS1. It's less efficient, less accurate and less versatile. All these additions are attempts to overcome that. The snapping and magnetism? Sure, we immediately ID that as a cheat, but that's how cursors have worked on consoles for years. From a certain perspective, it's a natural progression.

A controller is a garbage piece of equipment to play FPSes on. Whether or not one can get used to it, it is OBJECTIVELY WORSE than a mouse and keyboard and very few people raised in a console FPS environment will ever try anything else because of the growing preponderance of controller options on PC. But they will demand a similar level of precision from their set-up because that's what you NEED in an FPS, and so companies find ever increasingly more sophisticated, convoluted ways of delivering that.

Sorry for rant and if I made no sense, early morning commutes are the suck.


Also, I was gonna leave this alone because I like you so please understand this is a criticism of the argument not you, but as a defense of controllers, this sucks. 

 

I was raised on controllers; Some of them exceedingly primitive: colecovision's spin dial, atari's stick/button, nes dpad/2button.

None of which were necessarily imprecise,  ponderous, or suffered excessive latency, etc.

There is a fully realized universe to apply hand held gaming controllers in extremely skilled, top tier competitive gaming.

 

Fighters.

 

Consider this documentary; I've found it to chronicle the very essence of competitive gaming and it's parallels to my own comp pc fps community's legacy are nothing short of profound. And at it's foundation are the n64 and gamecube controller.

 

Do yourself a favor and hit all the episodes. A huge motivator for me to work to see Hawken played in a competitve enviroment.

 


Edited by CraftyDus, 29 October 2015 - 08:12 AM.

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#21
Amidatelion

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I was raised on controllers; Some of them exceedingly primitive: colecovision's spin dial, atari's stick/button, nes dpad/2button.

None of which were necessarily imprecise,  ponderous, or suffered excessive latency, etc.

There is a fully realized universe to apply hand held gaming controllers in extremely skilled, top tier competitive gaming.

 

Fighters.

 

Consider this documentary; I've found it to chronicle the very essence of competitive gaming and it's parallels to my own comp pc fps community's legacy are nothing short of profound. And at it's foundation are the n64 and gamecube controller.

 

Do yourself a favor and hit all the episodes. A huge motivator for me work to see Hawken played in a competitve enviroment.

 

 

Fighters absolutely benefit from the controller, but they have massively different gameplay from FPS's. Even within your examples, the n64 joystick was less responsive than even the gamecube's c-stick, which is less so than the 3DS's utterly slick (but unfortunately flimsy build quality) circlepad design. There's a lot of room for gradations within the term "precise."



#22
Morticius

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360joypad left hand, mouse right hand.

i inherited my dad's mits, so keyboards are a bytsh. anyone that played smurf MajyckToad in mid-2013 will understand what a complete bottom garbage player i was (i would be elated if i got over 60 in a match; players would be raging at me to get out of a team i suct so bad) until i discovered XPadder. now i'm just a moderate garbage player...but at least i can get into matches now, and i'm not always the bottom scoring player

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#23
phed

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Goldeneye was the only console shooter to get it right.
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#24
DeeRax

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Goldeneye Timesplitters (2 & 3) was the only console shooter to get it right.

FTFY.
(Literally same developer, and literally the same exact gameplay as Goldeneye, just newer, a lot faster paced, and whackier).


Edited by (TDM) DeeRax, 29 October 2015 - 09:40 AM.

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#25
CraftyDus

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Even within your examples, the n64 joystick was less responsive than even the gamecube's c-stick, which is less so than the 3DS's utterly slick (but unfortunately flimsy build quality) circlepad design. There's a lot of room for gradations within the term "precise."


n64 analogue stick used optical sensors like a mouse, and the gamecube controller is still the prefered controller in competitive smash by most of the top tier players even over the wii and 3ds. They would ruin the average casual (you, me and everyone we know) with these controllers and supposed precision fantasies would be the last concern.
Thers's a lot of room for gradations within the term "fuzzy bunny". (Skrrubb, profanity filter)

Edited by CraftyDus, 29 October 2015 - 10:34 AM.

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#26
DeeRax

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n64 analogue stick used optical sensors like a mouse, and the gamecube controller is still the prefered controller in competitive smash by most of the top tier players even over the wii and 3ds. They would ruin the average casual (you, me and everyone we know) with these controllers and supposed precision fantasies would be the last concern.
Thers's a lot of room for gradations within the term "fuzzy bunny". (Skrrubb, profanity filter)

I can vouch for "GC controller is best controller" when it comes to any SSB game.
( Not that I'm by any means top tier; But I am really good. :yes: )


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#27
ticklemyiguana

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A controller is a garbage piece of equipment to play FPSes on. Whether or not one can get used to it, it is OBJECTIVELY WORSE than a mouse and keyboard and very few people raised in a console FPS environment will ever try anything else because of the growing preponderance of controller options on PC. But they will demand a similar level of precision from their set-up because that's what you NEED in an FPS, and so companies find ever increasingly more sophisticated, convoluted ways of delivering that.
 

Hey, fuzzy bunny you, buddy!

 

I only starting PCing three years ago! Console was my sustenance from 2004 to 2012. (Yes, I legitimately went about 13 years of my life without video games.)

 

 

 

The most disheartening thing for me about this bullet magnetism auto aim nonsense in Halo is that the series' multiplayer was structured in a way that could have been a legitimately solid Esport on PC. Instead of being a slower, easier to watch version of Quake though it caught a bad case of consoleitus and became a casual game. This saddens me.

 

I know  :sad:. My first real game (other than playing Sonic at my brother's orthodontist) was Halo 2 - and while that had a bit of auto aim, the gameplay itself was really excellent.

 

I also downloaded a client called Xbox Connect that allowed one to play online multiplayer on earlier releases like Halo CE. I have to say, it's quite difficult to be proficient at with a controller. (Auto aim [very minor adjustment to allow for headshots over an internet infrastructure sub par to what we experience today] was initially introduced as a method of lag compensation, and since Halo CE was not Xbox Live enabled, it wasn't a feature in its multiplayer.)

 

It would be really nice to see a PC game structured similarly to H2's multiplayer. Maybe a bit of speed increase, but in general it was an exceptionally tactical game as far as my console experience was concerned.


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#28
CraftyDus

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The first game I was really good at was a Halo title using auto-aim. It took skill. I wish Hawken had it too; not enough to notice, but enough so I'd feel like a badass. An exceptional, tactical badass.

 

Thanks for sharing man. It's the first step towards sobriety.


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#29
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Taco bell is sponsoring with chicken wings the first Halo World Championship. So far they have 5 12-year-old teams signed in. Taco Bell said they get free chips on breakfast.


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#30
ticklemyiguana

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Thanks for sharing man. It's the first step towards sobriety.

reported bruh


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#31
WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW

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It becomes a skill in itself to know when to use the aim magnetism system and when to compensate.

 

I wouldn't bother to play a console FPS game except to have fun, which the auto aimer/aim magnetism helps with, so I don't see a problem. It's a nice piece of software!

 

---

 

That said, I would love to be able to play Halo games on PC with the aim assist disabled. Very fun game to jump in and out of.


Edited by WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW, 29 October 2015 - 02:03 PM.

Thank you for your time,

 

WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW


#32
Massive_Assailant_Stingray

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n64 analogue stick used optical sensors like a mouse, and the gamecube controller is still the prefered controller in competitive smash by most of the top tier players even over the wii and 3ds. They would ruin the average casual (you, me and everyone we know) with these controllers and supposed precision fantasies would be the last concern.
Thers's a lot of room for gradations within the term "fuzzy bunny". (Skrrubb, profanity filter)

 

I think you can hardly compare controlling a fighter on a 2d screen, to controlling a camera in a 3d space. You have to think about the difference in input between movement and view. (for instance you likely don't mouse up to walk forward, mouse left to strafe left, and you likely haven't aimed with the arrow keys since doom) Both shooters and fighters require an amount of precision that scales exponentially with the skill level. Controllers just aren't as conducive to the latter, but i know that's not really the point you're trying to argue here. Also pretty obvious that high tier players will wreck low tier players, but I'm not sure that really suggests that a keyboard couldn't be as proficient in a fighting game.

 

I think that "precision" is probably just not the right word here. I don't think anyone is trying to suggest that a controller can't accurately translate your inputs. "Precision" is just an easy go to word for PC shooter guys to basically say "your stick can't keep up with my moves, baby."

 

Anyways, shooters are cool, fighters are cool. I like them. You guys are cool, I like you.






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