Jump to content

Photo

30 Mechs? How and Why speculation.

- - - - -

  • Please log in to reply
16 replies to this topic

#1
Tayloe

Tayloe

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 5 posts

What is behind the increase in the mech count, and who does this Tayloe person think he is starting a post like this when he is clearly a new member of the community?

 

About me (skip to the next paragraph to stay on topic, or read on to discover more about this intriguing newcomer):

Started playing in April. My mmr has been steadily climbing, right now I am just under 1800 (I have played tech in pvp 1 time). I own and have played all the mechs, my goto is still the assault, but I have been using the Beserker, Reaper, and Sharp Shooter in an effort to be competitive with some of the harder mechs. I have 3 kids including 1 year old twins so I am limited in how active I can be in the community. I have enjoyed reading the forums and watching streams and vid though. I like the depth and difficulty in the game so far. The only other game I really play is Evolve (waiting on the new update that is supposed to change the game drastically for the better).

 

 

The announcement of 30 mechs is a bit of a head scratcher, and starts to become worrisome when the examples we have are a Vanguard with a B3AR Cannon, an A class with dual seekers, and possibly a Grenadier with dual Rev GL's. I am going to start with the assumption that Reloaded are competent developers with the primary goal of making Hawken a financially viable IP, and that the concerns of the current PC player base come second at this time.

 

- As speculated elsewhere in the forum, we are unlikely to see any new weapons or abilities, but instead some new weapon combos and possibly some new chassis. It was likely too time consuming and expensive to develop and balance totally new weapons and mechs for the initial console release. If the game does well on console, then we should expect new maps and mechs in the future.

 

- The driving concept behind the larger mech number is most likely driven by making the game more accessible to new and lesser skilled players to improve player retention and maintain a healthy player base. This means that many of the new mechs will provide weapon combos that allow rapid fire, ease of aiming, minimal heat buildup, with lower damage. The dual seeker A class mech would seem to meet those criteria, especially with a few tweeks. Mechs with those attributes put the focus on movement and tactics to win fights, and help players develop skills progressively rather than having to learn how to move/dodge, manage heat, aim, watch the radar, be aware of secondary weapon and ability status, and learn the maps all at the same time.

 

- I can imagine a skill tree system designed to give new players access to the most friendly to use mechs, while locking away the more difficult to master mechs until players have a chance to develop advanced skills. Many of these easy mechs may not be competitive in high level play, and there is no reason that every mech should be. It also appears they will be removing the customization options that allow different chassis to be mixed. While this will upset those with mixed mechs, it is confusing for most players, especially since mechs have different strengths and counters it is important info that you know if you are facing a scout or a reaper for instance.

 

- There will certainly be balance issues, and possibly some major mistakes made by the developer that will be corrected over time. I can guarantee you that Reloaded did not purchase Hawken thinking that all they needed to do was port it over to consoles and start raking in the money. They probably saw a solid game that they believed they could modify and expand to consoles with an appropriate business plan that would be financially viable and generate a return worth the effort. Over the next year we will see if the new plan and its execution will succeed or not.

 

Obviously this is all speculation, since we have so few details. Those that are complaining that the PC is not getting the update right away should be careful what they wish for.


  • JackVandal likes this

#2
asipo

asipo

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 213 posts

i saw b-class with heat cannon and flak :D


Join Hawken asia Facebook group : here

 

Mech idea : Marauder (B-class), Raptor (A-class)


#3
coldform

coldform

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1100 posts
There are already enough art assets in the game for 30 mechs with unique appearance.

I like going against the best of any game I play. Helps you in the long run n motivates u to do more. Always room for improvement not failure

z6aJAX7.png?1

 

czerofive-Today at 2:22 AM > got banned from playing lazertag - I used a knife to conserve ammo

FIRST OFF WHAT THE FUZZ IS A "SHILL"


#4
Shade__

Shade__

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 441 posts

i just want a B-class with a GL like a normal GL not the rev.


,d88b.d88b,
88888888888
`Y8888888Y'
`Y888Y' 
`Y

-Shade__


#5
DeeRax

DeeRax

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 689 posts

Anyone who gets legitimately confused by a mix-matched mech needs to 'git gud' and LOOK AT THE SCOREBOARD/WHAT THE ENEMY PLAYER IS SHOOTING THEM WITH. This is not a difficult task.

Getting rid of the ability to mix n' match chassis parts panders to the lowest common denominator, greatly decreases customization options, goes against the spirit of HAWKEN and it's aesthetic, and will even decrease RLD's ability to make as much money off cosmetics (Not that RLD can/should be expected to make all of their money purely off of cosmetics, of course). And to do this with disregard to the Cupcake chassis, or even the Hon chassis and SS pack that RELOADED RELEASED TO US? Booooooo, boooooooo I say! BOO HIIIISSSSSSSSSS.

The rest of your points are acceptable, I guess. -ish. Sort of. Meh.
 


Edited by (TDM) DeeRax, 17 June 2016 - 11:42 AM.

         starfox-sig.gifrYFaSGG.gif

 

          2XhpJes.png

 

"DeeRax's got what you've always wanted."


#6
TURDxSANDWICH

TURDxSANDWICH

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 56 posts

 

 

Obviously this is all speculation, since we have so few details. Those that are complaining that the PC is not getting the update right away should be careful what they wish for.

 

 

Welcome to the community, Tayloe.  I appreciate your measured and reasoned approach, with a hint of optimism possible only in a player that has joined in the last 6 weeks or so.

 

To say we are upset that the PC version isn't getting the update right away is a gross oversimplification of the issue.  We are a community that has gone through a lot over the past 3+ years.  Yes, we would prefer to get the update sooner or later.  But, most of the outrage/negativity comes mostly from how this was all handled.

 

Back in December, after Reloaded had already had the game for 7+ months with seemingly nothing to show for it, we were famously told that "2016 is going to be a big year for Hawken!"  even though, as we know now, they knew full well at that time, that the big release was going to be for consoles.  Obviously, as we were the only playerbase in town at the point, we assumed a big year for Hawken, meant a big year for us too.  I'm a reasonable person, and I get that saying "2016 is going to be a big year for Hawken" was absolutely true for them, but only a complete lack of tact and understanding of our community could lead someone to make such a statement with a straight face directly to our faces and just let us think our update was coming.

 

Fast forward to this week, when we are told of the plans to release the updated game on consoles, and not PC.  Some expected outrage ensues, and the response from our community manager is completely void of compassion and understanding for what our community as a whole was expecting the news to be,  and instead just hammers home the point that the PC community is unimportant to their vision of the future of the game.

 

https://community.pl...future/?p=92423

 

This, of course, is then coupled with absolutely no information regarding any concrete details of the new version of the game.  Meanwhile, anyone with an E3 ticket is free to play away and get any details they want.  Once again, displaying a lack of respect and understanding for us, and the only thing we've ever truly asked from Reloaded since they took over... transparency and open lines of communication.

 

I get that they are a small development studio.  I get that Josh and others have been stuck at E3 all week, and the rest of the team I'm sure is plugging and chugging away, getting the final version of the game ready for release.  But how hard would it be for Josh to pop on here, and just write "Hey, I know this news is probably surprising, and some of you may be disappointed that your wait is going to be even longer than you thought.  However, I promise there is a method to our madness, and we will do our best to provide all the details we can when we are back in the office on (such and such date)."  Just even a little acknowledgement that we are in fact a group of people, their customers, who have thoughts and feelings and a passion for this game would be appreciated.  The NDA is presumably over now, its ok to act like we exist again.

 

And then of course, there was this.  I'll just quote tickle, since he so perfectly expressed my feelings on this as well.

 

 

Do you see this picture?

 

Spoiler

 

This is going to be a running joke. Do you know why? If you were on the forums at all or trying to participate in and understand the discussions on the game and balance, you'd get it. The seeker is hands down the least popular weapon in this community. People use it, but no one likes it. It's also a pitiful DPS sustained projectile weapon on an A class. YOU DON'T PUT LOW DPS SUSTAINED WEAPONS ON LIGHT MECHS, AND IF YOU DO, YOU MAKE THEM GODDAMN HITSCAN, BUT YOU DON'T DO THAT IN THE FIRST PLACE. And to top it all off, we're now logging into a website that proclaims that this is what we've always wanted. On Xbox to boot! COME ON.

 

 

 How tone deaf can Reloaded be?  That's what we are upset about.

  • -Tj-, DieselCat, JackVandal and 3 others like this

4wBdPaU.jpg


#7
KejiGoto

KejiGoto

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 163 posts

 

 

I get that they are a small development studio.  I get that Josh and others have been stuck at E3 all week, and the rest of the team I'm sure is plugging and chugging away, getting the final version of the game ready for release.  But how hard would it be for Josh to pop on here, 

 

 

How hard would it have been to come up with an update that was more than a timeline of how long we've been lied to about big things coming that will be worth the wait and also includes details about this new build on full display at E3?

 

Personally I think that would have been the way to go, not give us this half-assed response after the fact to something they should have seen coming a mile away. I gotta give Reloaded the benefit of the doubt in that they knew we (the PC community) wouldn't be happy about pretty much any of this and would want answers as to what in the hell is going on after all this time beyond knowing a version of Hawken is coming to consoles with numerous changes.

 

Seems like they gave us our wave farewell then set off for what they believe to be greener pastures. Nothing about this week has made it seem like the PC version is of any concern to Reloaded and the complete lack of information on the forums only further drives that point home. They explained to us what they had been doing all this time, why the PC version isn't getting updated, and basically where we can play Hawken when it releases unless the game does really well and they can afford to support the PC version.

 

This is something that should have been addressed during the update or they should have had another update prepared to go up after the E3 announcement and the game was revealed to be playable on the showroom floor. This doesn't seem like oversight though, it just seems like they gave us the information they wanted us to have and then moved on because we don't matter anymore. 

 

Again I hope I'm wrong like I've said in other threads but this week is winding down quick without any hint of us getting any of the answers we're looking for and rightfully deserve after being strung along all this time.


  • DieselCat and talon70 like this

#8
Hecatoncheires

Hecatoncheires

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 171 posts

I can only speculate that Reloaded is doing a lot of these things in order to keep the veteran players away from the new players/content until they create enough revenue and a large enough player base to develop the game properly. From what I've observed, the main reason new players seem to leave the game is because of veterans. Second after that is lack of content.


What the Heca-


#9
-Tj-

-Tj-

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 285 posts

I've kinda stated my distaste for the whole situation in a couple other posts, so I'll try to keep this reply focused...

 

30 mechs seems like an awful lot of mechs to balance and manage. Just balancing the ones we have now has been quite an interesting ride, and that was based on having a lot of mechs sharing the same weapons and being unable to individually adjust those weapons for each mech. If 30 of these mechs are now sharing these same weapons (assuming that Reloaded has decided to keep each weapon's specs the same across all mechs that share them), balance is going to be a nightmare.

 

With that in mind, what's going to happen if one or more of these mechs ends up being way over- or under-powered? Is Reloaded just going to keep them in? Are they going to remove them? Are they going to tweak them? What about all those players who spent all that time EARNING those mechs? What about all the HC/MC/RC/Whatever spent on them?

 

I really feel likethis is a bad direction. In the past, Adhesive had taken in a lot of suggestions the community had offered in terms of balance. "This is OP, should be changed, this is UP, should be changed," to which they would respond one way or another, changing things for better and sometimes for worse. But they listened, and they added mechs slowly. With each addition, the community had a chance to play them, give feedback, and watch it change into something more balanced.

 

With these "new" 30 mechs, we have no idea what's going on. It almost doesn't sound like Hawken anymore... there's mechs, there's the same maps, there's what I'd assume are the same weapons... but the numbers are probably different, and the loadouts sound different as well. None of us will really know what's going on till we get our hands on the new build, so yeah...

 

My guess, "30 mechs with more to come" sounds like pure marketing. The current mech count isn't great, but it offers variety. But volume sells, regardless of the quality. Maybe Reloaded is hoping to balance everything after launch, but in my view, it sounds like they're releasing something too raw to a new market, and I don't know if it will be received well. Maybe it will. Who knows? We can only watch and speculate for now, and those of us without any of the current-gen consoles will have to see what happens till the PC version, whenever it drops on us, comes along.


  • DieselCat likes this

#10
HugeGuts

HugeGuts

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 101 posts

I can only speculate that Reloaded is doing a lot of these things in order to keep the veteran players away from the new players/content until they create enough revenue and a large enough player base to develop the game properly. From what I've observed, the main reason new players seem to leave the game is because of veterans. Second after that is lack of content.

 

The main reason players leave isn't because of veterans, but because of mechanics and pacing that is unfriendly to new players because they take far too long and far too much frustration to learn while going up against veterans. Players are fighting more against the game itself than veterans. I don't see this console version addressing any of those issues in the game play demos seen. The console version is finally getting "new" content, but as long as these pacing and mechanical issues are not changing, the console version of Hawken will inevitably see the same population trends as the PC version.


  • Amidatelion likes this

#11
DieselCat

DieselCat

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 711 posts

The main reason players leave isn't because of veterans, but because of mechanics and pacing that is unfriendly to new players because they take far too long and far too much frustration to learn while going up against veterans. Players are fighting more against the game itself than veterans. I don't see this console version addressing any of those issues in the game play demos seen. The console version is finally getting "new" content, but as long as these pacing and mechanical issues are not changing, the console version of Hawken will inevitably see the same population trends as the PC version.

I really don't see any new content....I'm just seeing musical chairs and smoke and mirrors.

 

How hard would it have been to come up with an update that was more than a timeline of how long we've been lied to about big things coming that will be worth the wait and also includes details about this new build on full display at E3?

 

Personally I think that would have been the way to go, not give us this half-assed response after the fact to something they should have seen coming a mile away. I gotta give Reloaded the benefit of the doubt in that they knew we (the PC community) wouldn't be happy about pretty much any of this and would want answers as to what in the hell is going on after all this time beyond knowing a version of Hawken is coming to consoles with numerous changes.

 

Seems like they gave us our wave farewell then set off for what they believe to be greener pastures. Nothing about this week has made it seem like the PC version is of any concern to Reloaded and the complete lack of information on the forums only further drives that point home. They explained to us what they had been doing all this time, why the PC version isn't getting updated, and basically where we can play Hawken when it releases unless the game does really well and they can afford to support the PC version.

 

This is something that should have been addressed during the update or they should have had another update prepared to go up after the E3 announcement and the game was revealed to be playable on the showroom floor. This doesn't seem like oversight though, it just seems like they gave us the information they wanted us to have and then moved on because we don't matter anymore. 

 

Again I hope I'm wrong like I've said in other threads but this week is winding down quick without any hint of us getting any of the answers we're looking for and rightfully deserve after being strung along all this time.

Well said.... it does make me feel I've been lied to and cheated....Of the 200 or so players that remain in this community that have been here since 2012 and never left,  or even have left and returned, deserve more than what we got when the game was (sort to speak) rescued in terms of honest communication. 

 

This community deserved a little more respect for hanging in and we got pretty much none. Even if the game becomes successful on consoles and the PC gets a few crumbs off of that...it will still feel like a slap in the face for the time and money a lot of people have spent here over the last 4 years.

 

I will be really sad if this game goes away from the PC or becomes just a watered down version of what it is now or could/should have been....sad...very sad  :sad:


  • KejiGoto and talon70 like this

Just Relax....and take life one game at a time....

Don't run to your death....walk

 

th_Duckman.jpg   th_82c0a97c-98de-4aac-be47-05e5e099be80.

 

*+

 


#12
Hecatoncheires

Hecatoncheires

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 171 posts

The main reason players leave isn't because of veterans, but because of mechanics and pacing that is unfriendly to new players because they take far too long and far too much frustration to learn while going up against veterans. Players are fighting more against the game itself than veterans. I don't see this console version addressing any of those issues in the game play demos seen. The console version is finally getting "new" content, but as long as these pacing and mechanical issues are not changing, the console version of Hawken will inevitably see the same population trends as the PC version.

Well,  this is true, but that's partly a different issue. At this current time, the ratio between new players and veteran players is far too even, with the space in between never filling. The issue is just as you've said, new players are facing veterans in a game with fairly complex mechanics, but the main problem there is the far too common presence of veterans in every game, not the game itself. I don't think I've ever played a match at my MMR (1700) for long before a 2000+ MMR player joins in, making most players with middle to low scores leave (not to exclude my own presence there). If new players struggle with the game's mechanics while playing other new players struggling similarly, the balance generally remains even and frustration is present in only a small portion of players (who wouldn't be considered the target audience anyway). My memory is fairly hazy, but I believe the few months after the beta launch are proof of this. I fondly remember spraying bullets with glee when i first began playing, and I thought I did well even though I sucked.

 

Of course, most players left the game eventually, but it was mainly because of a lack of content. I say this because that was the reason I left (to later come back about a year ago). This is also a common reason I seem to find elsewhere from these forums, like the recent mention of Hawken on Kotaku or on Youtube. If the game had continued to add new content--new mechs, new maps--I believe it would have flourished pretty darn well.

 

This is still all just speculation, however, so you are just as right as I am.

 

 

How hard would it have been to come up with an update that was more than a timeline of how long we've been lied to about big things coming that will be worth the wait and also includes details about this new build on full display at E3?

 

Personally I think that would have been the way to go, not give us this half-assed response after the fact to something they should have seen coming a mile away. I gotta give Reloaded the benefit of the doubt in that they knew we (the PC community) wouldn't be happy about pretty much any of this and would want answers as to what in the hell is going on after all this time beyond knowing a version of Hawken is coming to consoles with numerous changes.

 

Seems like they gave us our wave farewell then set off for what they believe to be greener pastures. Nothing about this week has made it seem like the PC version is of any concern to Reloaded and the complete lack of information on the forums only further drives that point home. They explained to us what they had been doing all this time, why the PC version isn't getting updated, and basically where we can play Hawken when it releases unless the game does really well and they can afford to support the PC version.

 

This is something that should have been addressed during the update or they should have had another update prepared to go up after the E3 announcement and the game was revealed to be playable on the showroom floor. This doesn't seem like oversight though, it just seems like they gave us the information they wanted us to have and then moved on because we don't matter anymore. 

 

Again I hope I'm wrong like I've said in other threads but this week is winding down quick without any hint of us getting any of the answers we're looking for and rightfully deserve after being strung along all this time.

Well, we have to realize that feelings aren't their priority right now. Their priority right now is promotion and money. Particularly to a new audience.

If you haven't left already, you [probably] won't be leaving, ever. Your feelings have no monetary value, so they have to be economical with their attention.

And you also have to consider how 'free' they were to share any details. Breaking the NDA would have probably ruined the whole project.


Edited by Hecatoncheires, 17 June 2016 - 10:47 PM.

What the Heca-


#13
KejiGoto

KejiGoto

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 163 posts

 

Well, we have to realize that feelings aren't their priority right now. Their priority right now is promotion and money. Particularly to a new audience.

If you haven't left already, you [probably] won't be leaving, ever. Your feelings have no monetary value, so they have to be economical with their attention.

And you also have to consider how 'free' they were to share any details. Breaking the NDA would have probably ruined the whole project.

 

You need to go back and re-read what I've posted. I address the NDA and all that.

 

We're not in NDA territory anymore though. We're in actively being ignored and avoided territory. 

 

And yea I've got one foot out the door and pretty much just waiting for final confirmation that Hawken is dead on PC. If I have to upgrade to Windows 10 I'm done as well. 

 

Also even if you have an NDA in place that doesn't force you to come on the forums and hype people up for something that isn't for them. Big things are coming! 2016 is gonna be a huge year for Hawken! We're still working just be patient and you'll be rewarded! All lines we've heard from Reloaded while they weren't working on the PC version of Hawken and knew full well we wouldn't be brought along for this relaunch.

 

Honestly I would have preferred they just not say anything and let this be a surprise announcement at E3. That way I wasn't expecting anything and could just laugh at the ridiculous changes I've seen in the gameplay videos people have uploaded to Youtube and be thankful I'm done with that mess.

 

Instead I spent the last year being strung along and told big things were coming for me.


  • DieselCat, comic_sans and HeavyMetalFenix like this

#14
AxionOperandi

AxionOperandi

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 202 posts

Also even if you have an NDA in place that doesn't force you to come on the forums and hype people up for something that isn't for them. Big things are coming! 2016 is gonna be a huge year for Hawken! We're still working just be patient and you'll be rewarded! All lines we've heard from Reloaded while they weren't working on the PC version of Hawken and knew full well we wouldn't be brought along for this relaunch.


Who says its not for you? They posted in their roadmap they pan to release updates on all platforms concurrently

More to the point getting Hawken out in front of new players was probably a stipulation for them to get development off the ground, ie without Hawken on the consoles there is no Hawken. And its not that there isn't money to be made on the PC side of things but again they have fiduciary responsibilities and if they project there is more money to made on the consoles then it would be foolish to launch anywhere but there first.

#15
KejiGoto

KejiGoto

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 163 posts

Who says its not for you? They posted in their roadmap they pan to release updates on all platforms concurrently

More to the point getting Hawken out in front of new players was probably a stipulation for them to get development off the ground, ie without Hawken on the consoles there is no Hawken. And its not that there isn't money to be made on the PC side of things but again they have fiduciary responsibilities and if they project there is more money to made on the consoles then it would be foolish to launch anywhere but there first.

 

Is the PC version of Hawken getting updated when the console versions get released?

 

No it isn't.

 

Is there a solid date for when Hawken on PC will get updated to the console version?

 

No there isn't.

 

Is it 100% confirmed that Hawken for PC is getting updated?

 

No again.

 

What we do know is that if Hawken on the consoles does well enough then Reloaded has plans to update the PC version of Hawken but those plans are a distant second to taking care of the console version.

 

And again I get that and totally understand it. I've been saying for months that we're no longer of any concern to Reloaded because this version isn't making money. However that still doesn't change the last year of teases which has nothing to do with us right now. It isn't doesn't change the fact that we haven't had our questions answered about what is coming for the PC version of Hawken, especially hearing about Windows 10 and all that. It doesn't change the fact that we know next to squat about this new build and changes implemented there outside of what can be gleamed from gameplay videos uploaded to Youtube and the sparse details in the announcement trailer we can watch online. 

 

There's no reason why we don't have these answers and why we're still sitting in the dark. E3 ended yesterday and throughout the week Tiggs was on the Steam forums answering questions here and there, we saw updates on Twitter and Facebook from PlayHawken (the official Hawken accounts), and yet here we got a roadmap to how long they've known they aren't working on the PC version and instead are full steam ahead with the console version.

 

Get us up to speed already, that's what I want. Give us all the information that was at E3, tell us about the new build, systems, mechanic, mechs, all that. This information is available and is no longer under NDA cause it was out in the public at E3 for anyone to walk up to and play. Give us this information so we can make an informed decision on whether we want to continue to wait around for yet another unknown date in the distant future when Hawken might be updated again on PC or to move the hell on with our lives cause clearly this isn't gonna work out.

 

So yea coming to a specific platform where a game is exclusive, telling those people big things are coming and their patience will be rewarded, then moving the game to completely different platforms with vague plans to update the original platform is pretty much the epitome of hyping something that wasn't me. That's like a step above going "Hey do you want this piece of cake I'm too full to finish? It's really good and your favorite flavor! Just come over here and get the plate! Gotcha! I actually threw it out earlier, there's no cake."



#16
CraftyDus

CraftyDus

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1354 posts
Y u mad doe?

EOC Raider, Bolt Pred, Rev Gl Gren, EOC Infil, All the Reapers, Father, Expert in Guitar Kung Fu, and Founder of TPG Hawken

I4U54qx.jpg     bQCgI0k.png   zd30MxR.png   vP7JiOe.png     uq0awfp.gif

lwY3QRd.jpg


#17
Call_Me_Ishmael

Call_Me_Ishmael

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1114 posts

Y u mad doe?

 

I am feeling a little like an a*hole today.  Pass the popcorn.


Did I say Call Me Ishmael?

 

You should call me Luna.





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users