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#41
6ixxer

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Basically this. Removing an item (even for a short period of time) is a huge PITA, and is not really a viable option for reasons that may not be immediately apparent.

 

I agree that they should t be removed, but private server owners want the ability to ban certain items such as radar and repair orbs so they can play what they see as a more 'pure' play style.

 

I'm happy for private servers to have those options. Don't stop people equipping it but as soon as they drop they destruct.



#42
Ashfire908

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I agree that they should t be removed, but private server owners want the ability to ban certain items such as radar and repair orbs so they can play what they see as a more 'pure' play style.

I'm happy for private servers to have those options. Don't stop people equipping it but as soon as they drop they destruct.


That would be a different type of scenario and wouldn't be bound by the same problems (though that's not to say it's without its own challenges, but they would be localized to those servers).
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#43
WmMoneyFrmMissouri

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Was thinking about this more. Not really sure how scanner can ruin the game for some classes. In my experience as someone who started using the scanner as soon as I could that had since stopped using it for a few months now, it's a crutch but it's not some break the game I never coming back op item. It's a great tool for a newer person getting their bearings. When I realized the larger well versed Hawken community, ie the really good players who are aimbots to the freshly indoctrinated fuzzy bunny, don't use it or its at least frowned on I stopped using it. Definetly more pride than common sense, same reason why I don't orb lord. It was a painful mmr drop, fitness level not enough always hurts the heart - but coach I can f-ing do it ! Anyways, what ended up happening - besides me fully embracing the yolo game play style - was that I got better. A lot better. I'll never be at the mmr heights with the scanner but that's more because I play for the lols and challenge more than preserving the kd. I know I'm a better pilot now without the scanner, however, I still feel it has a place in the game. I think this is a gradual progression for the majority of pilots because I don't see many scanners on use currently. Modern warfare have satellite imagining, how is that so much different from a scanner in what I'm assuming is hundreds of years in the future. Anyways, just some money .02.

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#44
Merl61

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Basically this. Removing an item (even for a short period of time) is a huge PITA, and is not really a viable option for reasons that may not be immediately apparent.

But making the radius 0 is easy no? Just put a tile on the main screen saying that the scanner has been nullified for a week for testing.

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#45
Merl61

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Was thinking about this more. Not really sure how scanner can ruin the game for some classes. In my experience as someone who started using the scanner as soon as I could that had since stopped using it for a few months now, it's a crutch but it's not some break the game I never coming back op item. It's a great tool for a newer person getting their bearings. When I realized the larger well versed Hawken community, ie the really good players who are aimbots to the freshly indoctrinated fuzzy bunny, don't use it or its at least frowned on I stopped using it. Definetly more pride than common sense, same reason why I don't orb lord. It was a painful mmr drop, fitness level not enough always hurts the heart - but coach I can f-ing do it ! Anyways, what ended up happening - besides me fully embracing the yolo game play style - was that I got better. A lot better. I'll never be at the mmr heights with the scanner but that's more because I play for the lols and challenge more than preserving the kd. I know I'm a better pilot now without the scanner, however, I still feel it has a place in the game. I think this is a gradual progression for the majority of pilots because I don't see many scanners on use currently. Modern warfare have satellite imagining, how is that so much different from a scanner in what I'm assuming is hundreds of years in the future. Anyways, just some money .02.

While it may not be that bad for brand new players, that doesn't negate the fact that it is absolutely game breaking in mid to high tiers. Also the argument that "the tech would exist in the made up universe" is totally bogus as the story and setting have nothing to do with gameplay.

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#46
Ashfire908

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But making the radius 0 is easy no? Just put a tile on the main screen saying that the scanner has been nullified for a week for testing.

Most players aren't gonna read the tile.
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#47
Kopra

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Most players aren't gonna read the tile.

Are you basing this on the amount of clicks on the tiles, most players running menu breaking resolution or general illiteracy?
Otherwise the tiles are pretty much in your face, how can most players not read them?

Edited by (KDR) Kopra, 08 October 2015 - 07:20 PM.

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#48
GreyFa1con

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I'll toss out another "Fix" to the Scanner.

Make it appear on enemy radar as a yellow dot.  (Or better yet, a tiny yellow radar icon)

 

Lot less of a scourge if you know exactly where it is, so you can kill it.


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#49
JeffMagnum

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+1 for Hygino's short burst idea, but I'll take it further than he did. How balanced would Scanner be if it had a larger radius (potentially even one that covers the entirety of all maps) but a duration of 1s or so? Momentarily pinging all enemies on radar for your team seems much fairer than a deployable wallhack regardless of how the AOE is adjusted. After updates start rolling out, it could possibly be changed to function similarly to the old version of EMP with a different animation so there wouldn't be a deployment time and you could also target a distant object to get your items recharged some before it takes effect--that'd look a lot less dumb than dropping a mini radar dish only to have it crumble moments later for no reason too.

Edited by JeffMagnum, 09 October 2015 - 12:50 AM.

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#50
Sp3ctrr

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Or we take a page from Blacklight: Retribution's HRV ability.

 

Press a button to enable radar pinging. Obviously you can't have somebody having radar ping on forever, so it switches off after a couple seconds or until the button it toggled again. Once the ability has been used, it'll take time for it to refresh.


Edited by Sp0oktre, 09 October 2015 - 12:29 AM.

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#51
JeffMagnum

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Now that I'm thinking along those lines due to the post bringing up HRV, what if Scanner allowed temporary Pred vision for maybe 10 seconds that didn't dissipate after boosting or shooting?

Edited by JeffMagnum, 09 October 2015 - 12:44 AM.

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#52
Merl61

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There's nothing wrong with these suggestions. The point that I am trying to make is that they can't be implemented right now and the current iteration is broken af. Therefore the best fix for the immediate future is to simply remove or nerf it into oblivion.

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#53
Hyginos

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There's nothing wrong with these suggestions. The point that I am trying to make is that they can't be implemented right now and the current iteration is broken af. Therefore the best fix for the immediate future is to simply remove or nerf it into oblivion.

 

We've already concluded in this very thread that:

  • Flat out (or functionally) removing the item may have unpredictable consequences on the non-forum-going majority.
  • Stat tweaks can be large enough to drastically alter the function of the scanner.

I would also argue that the players who see the biggest impact are the ones who are the least likely to be aware of the goings-on in the Hawken community, and thus are the mostly likely to be unpleasantly surprised by the sudden death of an item they don't see a problem with.

 

For the same reason as above, I'm also starting to think dave has a point. The people who are aware of how broken the item is are also generally not running it because they are active members of the competitive/pug/forum community. Scanners are not the most imminent problem with Hawken right now.


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#54
DerMax

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We've already concluded in this very thread that:

  • Flat out (or functionally) removing the item may have unpredictable consequences on the non-forum-going majority.
  • Stat tweaks can be large enough to drastically alter the function of the scanner.

I would also argue that the players who see the biggest impact are the ones who are the least likely to be aware of the goings-on in the Hawken community, and thus are the mostly likely to be unpleasantly surprised by the sudden death of an item they don't see a problem with.

 

For the same reason as above, I'm also starting to think dave has a point. The people who are aware of how broken the item is are also generally not running it because they are active members of the competitive/pug/forum community. Scanners are not the most imminent problem with Hawken right now.

So what is your point exactly? "Let's not do such week-long experiments because some imaginary low-tier players might be negatively affected"?

 

I think, for all intents and purposes of the development, these low-tier players are currently irrelevant to the game's future success. They are the least dedicated players, and they just come and go in droves due to how things are in Hawken right now. In fact, the game is currently at its all-time low with the Avg. Players SteamCharts stat plummeting below 300; the only thing that can save the game is drastic changes — not idling. The more experiments we do with items/internals/mechanics, the better.


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#55
Hyginos

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So what is your point exactly? "Let's not do such week-long experiments because some imaginary low-tier players might be negatively affected"?

 

I think, for all intents and purposes of the development, these low-tier players are currently irrelevant to the game's future success. They are the least dedicated players, and they just come and go in droves due to how things are in Hawken right now. In fact, the game is currently at its all-time low with the Avg. Players SteamCharts stat plummeting below 300; the only thing that can save the game is drastic changes — not idling. The more experiments we do with items/internals/mechanics, the better.

 

I am merely exploring the best course of action, not suggesting nothing be done.

 

Also, while I have no data to back this up, I can't imagine a hundred or so players who have everything unlocked in triplicate and functionally infinite HC are as profitable as droves of players spending 10 odd hours on the game when every 50th drops a fiver for some MC.


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#56
Panzermanathod

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Imaginary low-tier players? Wat?

 

Also, as I said, this isn't a change, this is the removal of an item, or at least the use of an item. Removing such an item is not a drastic change to stir things up. I don't know how many players use scanner regularly but I suspect it's not as much as ones who don't use it or don't use it regularly.



#57
DieselCat

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So what is your point exactly? "Let's not do such week-long experiments because some imaginary low-tier players might be negatively affected"?

 

I think, for all intents and purposes of the development, these low-tier players are currently irrelevant to the game's future success. They are the least dedicated players, and they just come and go in droves due to how things are in Hawken right now. In fact, the game is currently at its all-time low with the Avg. Players SteamCharts stat plummeting below 300; the only thing that can save the game is drastic changes — not idling. The more experiments we do with items/internals/mechanics, the better.

 

Irrelevant, Really ? .............. :rolleyes:  :wacko:  :wallbash:


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#58
Nept

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So, I don't like the Scanner.  It's total lamewad.  In fact, radar in general is total lamewad. 

 

To be clear: I would like the Scanner removed or reworked into the radar pulse that has often been suggested.

 

Having said that, I don't see what removing the Scanner for a week would accomplish asides from aggravating the low- and mid-tier players who bought the item.  Low-tier games are slow-paced and lolsy (no offense), scanner or no.  And mid-tier players don't (in my experience) benefit greatly from the Scanner either.  The population that would most appreciate this change are the few high-tier players who a) regularly pub and b) frequently encounter mid- to high-tier players running Scanner.

 

That's probably like, 11 people.

 

Besides, we already know what Hawken sans Scanner looks like: just flip through some TPG matches.  IMO, it's best to keep things as they are until Reloaded's ready to (AUTOBOTS) roll out some changes.  Save the weekly events/restrictions for changes whose effects we don't already know.


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#59
nepacaka

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i think, the whole game mechanic of radar and scanner should be changed to more team-based system, and scanner should working like a "radar amplifier".

something like this, just for example:

 

1) all current radar distance for mech should be decreased a little (well, maybe more than "a little" :D)

L3mcutA.jpg

 

2) radar working principle for team.iplR9EC.jpg

 

or something like this.

 

also, another variant - it shouldn't be a "portable scanner", it should be a "portable radar".

scanner should not give you ability to detect walking/invisible enemies, ie, it should just increase your radar range. like it was before.
 


Edited by nepacaka, 09 October 2015 - 06:22 AM.

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#60
nepacaka

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third variant - maybe radar should be deleted from game (i mean mechs radar too, deleted totally from GUI)

devs probably can turn off radar on test-server (or give us a test-server), and see how it working, if it will be better - change it, if not - leave it as is.


Edited by nepacaka, 09 October 2015 - 06:26 AM.

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#61
Hyginos

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devs probably can turn off radar on test-server (or give us a test-server), and see how it working, if it will be better - change it, if not - leave it as is.

 

I've seen open no-radar private servers fairly often. They're great.


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#62
nepacaka

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I've seen open no-radar private servers fairly often. They're great.

 

well, it is even no need to test :D


Edited by nepacaka, 09 October 2015 - 06:45 AM.

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#63
Panzermanathod

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also, another variant - it shouldn't be a "portable scanner", it should be a "portable radar".

scanner should not give you ability to detect walking/invisible enemies, ie, it should just increase your radar range. like it was before.
 

1) The scanner isn't really portable. Once activated it stays in one spot.

 

2) The scanner, by definition, should give you the ability to detect more easily. If it only increased radar range, it wouldn't be a scanner. 

 

As you said, what you are putting on the table is a radar amplifier. However I don't think it should be an item.

 

If you set it down it either it works for everyone on the team or everyone in range. But if it's the latter then it won't help much as you have to be X distance within the range of the item to make use of it, and for something like a radar enhancer it severely limits its potential use. It also wouldn't make much sense to have an item sitting around somewhere that just increases radar range. Interference, yes. Scanning, yes. But if a mech's radar maximum range is 150 meters then how would an increase in radar range be justified? At least with a scanner you can say that it is a high quality specialized radar that sends info to ones radar. But sending data is not the same as increasing the capabilities beyond its normal maximum.

 

Something like this would be better suited as a secondary ability or an internal, although at this point it would be redundant.

 

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#64
Kopra

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i think, the whole game mechanic of radar and scanner should be changed to more team-based system, and scanner should working like a "radar amplifier".

 

I really like this radar relay kind of system. An item that allows you to share radar information, fits the Scout as well since the Scout has the strongest radar, hence why sharing it makes very much sense.


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#65
Panzermanathod

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Doesn't the game already allow one to share radar information? At least to some extent?



#66
KarlSchlag

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I don't think it would be removed but remade into something else, the model and sound effects are still very much useable.

At the moment it does a 360 degree scanning around its position, right? Maybe it would be an acceptable nerf if it just scans a certain angle depending on how you position it, with a slight decrease of range, so it wouldn't be too powerful if you'd place it into corners. 

 

Like this:

Spoiler

 

The angle will cover the direction you're looking at when you place it.

It is a compromise and just a proposal. I know many people would love to see the scanner removed completely and I'm not using it personally. But as long as you don't get refunds on items it would be a downer to MOST of the new players, who actually(correct me if I'm wrong) aren't able to read the radar anyways.


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#67
Panzermanathod

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It seems feasible, although since it is directional it would take, if slightly, longer to set up in some situations. It might be better if the angle was wider, though.



#68
coldform

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So what is your point exactly? "Let's not do such week-long experiments because some imaginary low-tier players might be negatively affected"?

I think, for all intents and purposes of the development, these low-tier players are currently irrelevant to the game's future success. They are the least dedicated players, and they just come and go in droves due to how things are in Hawken right now. In fact, the game is currently at its all-time low with the Avg. Players SteamCharts stat plummeting below 300; the only thing that can save the game is drastic changes — not idling. The more experiments we do with items/internals/mechanics, the better.


Hmmm. My experience has tought me that if you engage new players and get them involved with the existing community, they will stick around, and will have more exposure to those of us that have spent money, which will generate more incentive for them to spend money. They, in turn, will repeat this process, and continue to spend money on the game. At least that's what has happened with me, as well as the part of the community that I have helped develop.

Back to op topic: we should at least *try* to do something with this internal's stats - make have huge radius and iddy biddy lifespan, it might return to high tier play, thus encouraging lower tier play - leading to a little more depth to the game, which leads to people playing longer... See the pattern here?

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#69
Flifang

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Maybe if it projects outward as a cone and can reflect off of walls as well as having a range limit that would better suit a conical projection that would make the item less of a "Hurr-Durr," item. I really enjoy the idea of having it be a really short duration as well. Anything that would make this item take more thinking and forethought to using effectively is alright in my book. The fact is no matter where you put this item bar throwing it off of map limits or having that bug happen that swallows some items into the abyss of wreckage still gives you a sizable range of awareness with zero-drawbacks besides not being able to set another of the damned things down and keep your current scanner. I'm not asking for a blatant drawback to make the item more balanced: I want it to be on par with other items. To be completely honest, a three second duration is all it takes for the scanner to turn any engagement. I think with that fix, it would be reasonable for it to keep the ability to sight cloaked targets. Or, we could always just buff the other items. I miss my 7 second green stun ball of death and my tow-rocket det. Oh and how could I forget the one way 500 health shield? I mean, cause those items were totally balanced when the game sped up. (I understand some items were tweaked before the speed shift) Honestly, with higher health and slower mechs the scanner wasn't nearly as powerful as it is now. Back then, a single mech could escape from an entire team if they fled quick enough. Back then, not a single mech had the staying power that some of the mechs do now. One mech able to sneak in from behind can quite possibly roll a team on their own. Right now the scanner is a crutch and quite possibly one of the most boring items.


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#70
Panzermanathod

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I don't think making it last 3 seconds makes effective deployment "smarter". Something like that requires less forethought and more reaction. In fact the current scanner requires more forethought than one that last 3 seconds. At least you could plan around it and be prepared for ambushes. At 3 seconds you just risk a higher chance of wasting it, and *is* a blatant drawback.

 

And for a weapon that, at least to me, seems more defensive, using it during an engagement doesn't sound too practical. Enemies shooting at you causes them to appear on the radar. At best you can go *I think someone may be hiding behind that corner* but that's about it.

 

Unless you had some other use for the 3 second scanner.



#71
GreyFa1con

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Another option.
And to be honest I think perhaps the best. (Yeah I'm biased)

Radar only has line of sight and boost detection. Similar to if you had another friendly Mech standing there. And give it about say 150-200m range.

Also, have it detect cloaked infiltrators/predators as of they were uncloaked mechs.

So it's an augmentation of normal abilities. But otherwise does not disrupt "normal" radar avoidance gameplay.

So it's a boost. Not a game changer.

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#72
Panzermanathod

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Is there such a thing in futuristic settings as a line of sight radar? I mean, sweeping radar is one thing but not too sure about line of sight.

 

Also if it can see cloaked preds that means it can see preds who are walking, an action that shouldn't trigger the radar in the first place. And it would mean that cloaking would make you in some way more visible. All you'd have to do is 180 turn twice just to see if any dots pop up.


Edited by Panzermanathod, 09 October 2015 - 06:28 PM.

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#73
nepacaka

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Imho, radar shouldn't detect walking mechs. Infiltrators in camouflage which use boost maybe. It should detect walking mechs only if they stand so close to radar. It is broken many mechs abilities based on sneaky. Ie infiltrators, pred, and potentially g2 (yes, it is bugged right now, but even if not, radar will broke it anyway)
It shouldn't working like it working now.

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#74
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Imho, radar shouldn't detect walking mechs. Infiltrators in camouflage which use boost maybe. It should detect walking mechs only if they stand so close to radar. It is broken many mechs abilities based on sneaky. Ie infiltrators, pred, and potentially g2 (yes, it is bugged right now, but even if not, radar will broke it anyway)
It shouldn't working like it working now.

the way it breaks mechs is some mechs almost require a sneak to be effective, like preds, infils, flanking scouts, the turkey, ect, because it notifies the entire team, and they get shredded, its even worse on preds and infils as they actually loose utility on their ability.


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#75
JeffMagnum

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There's nothing wrong with these suggestions. The point that I am trying to make is that they can't be implemented right now and the current iteration is broken af. Therefore the best fix for the immediate future is to simply remove or nerf it into oblivion.

 

Why couldn't the radius be changed to an arbitrarily high number that covers the entirety of all maps and the duration set to 1-2 s to test out the pulse idea? Both values can be easily tweaked without a client-side patch. 


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#76
Rainbow_Sheep

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Why couldn't the radius be changed to an arbitrarily high number that covers the entirety of all maps and the duration set to 1-2 s to test out the pulse idea? Both values can be easily tweaked without a client-side patch.


That would be pretty interesting to try out. I am intrigued.
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#77
Merl61

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Why couldn't the radius be changed to an arbitrarily high number that covers the entirety of all maps and the duration set to 1-2 s to test out the pulse idea? Both values can be easily tweaked without a client-side patch. 

that is also fine. I just wish they would do SOMETHING. 


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#78
Fantus_Longhorn

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Why couldn't the radius be changed to an arbitrarily high number that covers the entirety of all maps and the duration set to 1-2 s to test out the pulse idea? Both values can be easily tweaked without a client-side patch. 

Sonar? I could get behind that. Removing the item completely seems an extreme step to take, adjustments to the mechanic seems more appropriate.



#79
Sylhiri

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Imho, radar shouldn't detect walking mechs. Infiltrators in camouflage which use boost maybe. It should detect walking mechs only if they stand so close to radar. It is broken many mechs abilities based on sneaky. Ie infiltrators, pred, and potentially g2 (yes, it is bugged right now, but even if not, radar will broke it anyway)
It shouldn't working like it working now.

 

Nothing should ping you while cloak is active, period.


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#80
ATX22

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Nothing should ping you while cloak is active, period.

 

If the cloak is suppose to mask your mech both visually and from radar, I'd say make it work equally well for both.  While cloaked, you can still be seen, same should be the case for radar, just significantly reduced as is the case with being seen.  When it comes to active radar, which is pretty much what the scanner is as apposed to passive radar, which is probably what the mechs are using, you should show up... as well as a huge dot for the scanner since it's actually transmitting out a signal.






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