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Balance system doesn't make any sense

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#1
Ezodev

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Seriously, WTF.

 

Look at this: http://images.akamai...3D0FCCAE1C3328/

 

Info:

 

Before match started, there were 4 people in the lobby: me, Chicki, this "diegulipolas..." guy, and incoru(which was just 'conecting' at this time)

 

I have ~~2120 MMR, Chicki is about 2300. Worst person at the time was at 1300 MMR.

 

And... balancer put me and Chicki in the first team, and these two newbies in the second one.

 

One of them has 5h playtime, another less than hour. They both have atrocious KDR's, so they're not smurfs.

 

What happened next is peacenotwar joining into our team, then someone tried to connect to the second one, and GO_PLAY_TETRIS joined our team(meanwhile this person connecting to other one quit).

 

 

So, result is: 4 2k MMR+ players against two <1500MMR newbs.

 

 

WTF?

 

That situation with GO_PLAY_TETRIS and peacenotwar joining to our team is understandable, maybe.

 

But what was that thing with putting 2100MMR and 2300MMR in one team and two 1300-1400MMR players in another.

 

Devs, maybe some explanation? How is that possible? Does 'balancing' code just compose teams randomly? I always assumed that it tries to make two teams have as simillar MMRs as possible, but it doesn't seem it's the case.



#2
TheButtSatisfier

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Those two pilots may have been in a party. Parties hilariously ruin balance in every match because (1) now matchmaker has less flexibility to shuffle players around before the match starts since it has to keep party members on the same team, and (2) I think MM adds a "bonus" to the party members' MMR for purposes of balancing that match because MM assumes the pilots in a party are coordinating more closely than random pubbers are. 

 

If there's a full server before a match starts, then MM will do its best to balance the game based on MMR composition. Most times, it's not that bad. When it gets bad is when teams are uneven before a match begins. Let's say there's a 5v6. The stronger players on the 5 person team, and even if the 5 person team is absolutely annihilating the other team during the match, MM will put a connecting pilot on the 5 person team to "even things out". If team populations are even but there's room in the server, then a connecting pilot will be placed on the team with the lower score. Put another way, once the match has started, then MM suddenly ignores anything related to MMR and just balances based on team pop and team score.

 

In short, MM does a decent job balancing teams when the server is full before the teams are locked in. In every other instance, MM is a fuzzy bunnyng fuzzy bunny show.

 

MM was not designed to be particularly intelligent, and it was certainly not designed to be regularly balancing teams in servers where MMR spread can consistently be between 400 and 1000. There's no vote to team shuffle, MM won't shuffle teams when a new player joins, player assignments upon joining are based on terrible parameters, MM only allows team population differences to be no greater than 1 pilot (3v4 is okay, 3v5 is not), and party mechanics just compound the issue.


Edited by TheButtSatisfier, 26 August 2016 - 10:51 PM.

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#3
StubbornPuppet

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Yeah, "Party" was my first guess... but I think Ezodev was trying to tell us to dismiss that possibility by mentioning that one of those players was just loading in when the match started.  I could have misread.


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#4
TheButtSatisfier

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Yeah, "Party" was my first guess... but I think Ezodev was trying to tell us to dismiss that possibility by mentioning that one of those players was just loading in when the match started.  I could have misread.

 

That may very well be true. I had assumed it was two players in a party, one of which had a slower connection / machine than the other.


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#5
Epsilon_Knight

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Those two newbie pilots were definitely in a party, or else there were late joins/revolving door we aren't being told about.  MM doesn't work that way, otherwise.



#6
Ezodev

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I haven't thought that they could've been in the party. So yes, that seems like a good explanation.

 

 

Yeah, "Party" was my first guess... but I think Ezodev was trying to tell us to dismiss that possibility by mentioning that one of those players was just loading in when the match started.  I could have misread.

 

 

At first, one was 'normal' and second was in "Pilot connecting" state. But that doesn't rule out party, I think. He could have a slower connection.



#7
StubbornPuppet

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I haven't thought that they could've been in the party. So yes, that seems like a good explanation.

 

 

 

 

At first, one was 'normal' and second was in "Pilot connecting" state. But that doesn't rule out party, I think. He could have a slower connection.

 

Thanks for clarifying.  Then I agree it was a party.  The balancer keeping parties on the same team is one of those decisions that Adhesive made which probably seemed like a good idea at a board meeting... but was actually an idiotic idea in practice.

 

And then the decision to try to minimize the problems the first bad decision caused by limiting parties to only 3 players... just an epic blunder that outlines the pitfalls of defensive problem solving.


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#8
DM30

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Thanks for clarifying. Then I agree it was a party. The balancer keeping parties on the same team is one of those decisions that Adhesive made which probably seemed like a good idea at a board meeting... but was actually an idiotic idea in practice.

And then the decision to try to minimize the problems the first bad decision caused by limiting parties to only 3 players... just an epic blunder that outlines the pitfalls of defensive problem solving.


I don't think it's fair to call these decisions idiotic. Before the party system was added, one very frequent complaint I saw was about the inability to play on a team with friends. It came up constantly. In the vast majority of online multiplayer games I've seen, their party systems come with that same fundamental guarantee. It's not like ADH did something completely radical and went against the grain with this system. It's a common feature that players expect.

The problem with the party system is exactly the same one as all other player balance problems in Hawken: insufficient population.
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#9
StubbornPuppet

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Thanks for clarifying.  Then I agree it was a party.  The balancer keeping parties on the same team is one of those decisions that Adhesive made which probably seemed like a good idea at a board meeting... but was actually an idiotic idea in practice.

 

And then the decision to try to minimize the problems the first bad decision caused by limiting parties to only 3 players... just an epic blunder that outlines the pitfalls of defensive problem solving.

 

 

I don't think it's fair to call these decisions idiotic. Before the party system was added, one very frequent complaint I saw was about the inability to play on a team with friends. It came up constantly. In the vast majority of online multiplayer games I've seen, their party systems come with that same fundamental guarantee. It's not like ADH did something completely radical and went against the grain with this system. It's a common feature that players expect.

The problem with the party system is exactly the same one as all other player balance problems in Hawken: insufficient population.

 

I understand that they did it to satisfy a popular complaint and request, "To be guaranteed to play on a team with the friends in my party."  And I understand why that might seem like a good idea.  But, to fail to analyze the potential repercussions of that kind of a decision... and then to attempt to compromise by making a choice that also makes players complain (ie: "why are only 3 people allowed in a party? That's stupid!")... I'd still call that idiotic.

 

A good decision would have been to allow for parties of up to 12 players, but with the understanding that parties are broken up on to different teams when that is what best suits balance in the match.

 

If they wanted a way for people to manually control who is on which team, they should have provided an option for private servers where the host can open up team switching before the match starts.


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#10
Flifang

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I understand that they did it to satisfy a popular complaint and request, "To be guaranteed to play on a team with the friends in my party."  And I understand why that might seem like a good idea.  But, to fail to analyze the potential repercussions of that kind of a decision... and then to attempt to compromise by making a choice that also makes players complain (ie: "why are only 3 people allowed in a party? That's stupid!")... I'd still call that idiotic.

 

A good decision would have been to allow for parties of up to 12 players, but with the understanding that parties are broken up on to different teams when that is what best suits balance in the match.

 

If they wanted a way for people to manually control who is on which team, they should have provided an option for private servers where the host can open up team switching before the match starts.

A large enough population can make things like parties less common to the average user. Even the issues that can be exploited for an unfair advantage would be drowned out if there were enough players at any one time.


Edited by Flifang, 26 August 2016 - 04:06 PM.

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#11
Guns_N_Rozer

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so much Name Call out :wallbash:



#12
CrimsonKaim

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Yeah, you have a damage ratio of 9.31. You are definately too powerful for this server and should not have access to it. :]


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#13
harmless_kittens

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Seems to me the worst match-ups start with an odd number of players, as has been pointed out.  This puts the two best players on the same (smaller) team, AND that team then also automatically gets the next player to join.  And if those 2 good players then pair up and stay close to each other, it's a bloodbath for the losing team.  I try not to "Ready-Up" unless there are an even number of players, but most people don't care and just hit "Ready" immediately.  But then again there have been times when we all wait for another player and they never come, after like 2 minutes :(  I've even seen matches that start with 11 and never, over the course of 10 minutes, get another player to join.  It's just weird how it works out sometimes.  Stating the obvious here, but "need more players" is clearly the solution to most/all of these issues.



#14
DieselCat

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Uneven match start-ups are an issue. Some player understand and hold off from hitting the ready tab in hopes of more people joining in to balance the teams out. Other players are too impatient or just don't realize that waiting a bit longer is more beneficial towards a better match experience.

 

There is also the issue of some players dropping out (quitting) during the match before it ends (whether the teams are balanced or not or the score is out of hand) that further complicates things by creating an even greater imbalance within the match (server hopping to find the better match for that person)......which is (imo) even worse.

 

Play the game knowing that there will almost always be a constant imbalance in many matches unless the player population greatly increases. 


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#15
LaurenEmily

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It appears as the MM doesn't take into account the mmrs of pilots that appear to be connecting and if the MM sorts the teams before those players connect it usually results in a bad balance.
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