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#1
Fantozzi

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Hi guys

 

 

I've noticed hawken now is full of cheaters...  i now that some other games has a anticheat system why not introduce this feature in Hawken too?

 

 

In my opinion the hawken's newbies (and other players too...) are damaged from a cheaters because when you arrive at more or less 2000 mmr is impossible to play without see the "superplayers"  with their aimbots systems hacking the game...

 

 

what do you think about this things?    

 

 

bye bye and enjoy hawken...    without cheaters if possible!!!



#2
coldform

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best thing to do is to get a recording of the offense as it occurs, upload it to youtube/vimeo/etc - make sure that the vid is unlisted - and submit a support ticket.

 

include things like:

 

  • name of the server
  • name of the cheater
  • time in the video in which the offense occurs
  • politeness.

 

You will get a boilerplate response, but trust in the fact that they are looking into it.

 

hope this helps.


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#3
Epsilon_Knight

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Robust anticheat should be a high priority for the PC platform in the future, I think everyone agrees.

 

Hopefully RLD will implement something. 


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#4
dorobo

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I hate that unlisted fuzzy bunny.. why should we hide that ffs?!


Edited by dorobo, 01 August 2016 - 01:00 AM.


#5
-Tj-

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Anti-cheat would be a great thing to have, but from what I've seen over the years there are really only a handful of cheaters making new accounts and continuing to cheat. A lot of the "cheaters" players appear to encounter are actually seasoned vets who happen to have been placed into low-tier lobbies. As unfortunate as it might be, since the playerbase is relatively small, high-tier players are sometimes randomed into low-tier matches just so they can play. I know a lot of these high-tier players aren't cheating since they can be outsmarted, and their shots can be dodged if you time them right. You can't really do this when a cheater uses an aimbot.

Really, the best thing to do is record it if you can, then submit the uploaded video to YouTube or some similar video depot and send that to Reloaded support for scrutiny.

But be forewarned, a lot of "superplayers" you're playing against in the 2000+ mmr range aren't cheating, no matter how much you'd like to believe it. What they are using is a combination of much better reaction time and fine aim control (brain just suited to that), knowledge of maps and layouts, just simple experience (like knowing what the majority of players do, like dodging to their left most of the time, or even where players would likely try to escape or repair), and fine-tuned senses to the game (listening for footsteps, listening to what guns are being fired, what allies are being fired upon and likely by what or even who, where enemies might spawn based on ally locations, etc.) and so on. I'm constantly surprised by players who ignore a lot of these core tactics in the game, but I really can't blame them since this game has so much one can pay attention to to get the upper hand. It is, to me, quite mindblowing how much can be utilized in Hawken to do so. I actually get surprised often when I subconsciously lob a grenade where I expect a player to dodge or boost to, and they actually move to that spot seconds later, even to the point of the enemy running over the grenade themselves to get me the kill.

That being said, it's really best to send the devs a recording of who you might think might be cheating and let them deal with it. If the offenders aren't dealt with in due time, it's likely they're either just really good players or the devs can't tell if they're actually cheating (usually the former, since if a player really is cheating, the devs will probably get multiple reports about them with good evidence).

Hope that helps. :)
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#6
crockrocket

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As TJ mentioned, the number of actual cheaters is not very high, it's just that they are unfortunately persistent. A good start on improving anti cheat would be to fully release the in game report function and to improve spectator mode.

 

 

If at all possible I'd like to hear from some RLD staff exactly what is in place already; I know that there are some anti cheat systems. For example, I've heard about rudimentary speed hack detection with auto-kick, it'd be nice if we knew just how extensive these systems are. However this is actually an area where I advise communicative discretion (can't reveal anything that may assist hackers).


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#7
harmless_kittens

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Is there a high enough MMR level that a player can see through walls and specifically come after cloaked mechs on the other side who are trying to take a video?  I'm specifically asking if the SS aimbot program allows them to see stealthed mechs.  I'm getting tired of being told in game by other players that "they're not cheating, they're just really good."  And yet I can be on the other side of a building or wall, absolutely still, watching them in stealth mode, and then they "look" at me, dodge around the edge of the building and take me out.  I'm supposed to believe this is just a "great player"?


Edited by harmless_kittens, 01 August 2016 - 06:04 AM.


#8
Hyginos

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Is there a high enough MMR level that a player can see through walls and specifically come after cloaked mechs on the other side who are trying to take a video?  I'm specifically asking if the SS aimbot program that allows them to see stealthed mechs.  I'm getting tired of being told in game by other players that "they're not cheating, they're just really good."  And yet I can be on the other side of a building or wall, absolutely still, watching them in stealth mode, and then they "look" at me, dodge around the edge of the building and take me out.  I'm supposed to believe this is just a "great player"?

 

If scanner was removed it would be easier to identify this as suspicious behavior. 


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#9
Epsilon_Knight

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But be forewarned, a lot of "superplayers" you're playing against in the 2000+ mmr range aren't cheating, no matter how much you'd like to believe it. 

 

While OP is still wet behind the ears, I have caught two bot players in as many days, burning up the lobbies for a solid hour+.  Players who leave the game get dragged right back in, because not everyone will leave, lack of populated servers, etc.

 

Botters definitely are out there. Most of them are probably a handful of people cycling through accounts.  Either way, there's cheating besides aim snap, and subtle cheaters may just go unnoticed.  It's really disgusting that some disgruntled player can download cheating software and play it all day long, and do the same thing under a new name tomorrow IF they get banned.  Considering that with so few servers, your options are

 

A) Play with the botter until they leave

B) Hope enough players leave or a new game opens up for you to escape the lobby

 

Yeah, it should be a higher priority than the next mech.  Also if RLD puts some effort into the issue, the integrity of the game would go up, and players may be more willing to believe that the legitimately good players are legitimately good.  With free hax on google, faith is justifiably lacking.


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#10
Analysis

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I fought what I think was a cheater this morning. The user was piloting a brawler with Hawkins. The user rarely(if ever) fired their TOW, but had perfect aim with Hawkins. The scores were always sub 10 to 40 where the cheating suspect had 500-600 points per match of TDM. I'm not even sure the brawler used dodge.

 

If the player was cheating it is interesting to see the evolution. Typically aim bot users stick to snipers or the G2 assault. This player might of selected the Brawler due to the higher health.

 

Also what was interesting was their profile was "private" under hawken herokuapp so one couldn't even look at their weapon accuracy.


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#11
PsychedelicGrass

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I fought what I think was a cheater this morning. The user was piloting a brawler with Hawkins. The user rarely(if ever) fired their TOW, but had perfect aim with Hawkins. The scores were always sub 10 to 40 where the cheating suspect had 500-600 points per match of TDM. I'm not even sure the brawler used dodge.

If the player was cheating it is interesting to see the evolution. Typically aim bot users stick to snipers or the G2 assault. This player might of selected the Brawler due to the higher health.

Also what was interesting was their profile was "private" under hawken herokuapp so one couldn't even look at their weapon accuracy.



Pretty sure I know who you're talking about, yeah they were pretty suspicious

Iirc they only had about a dozen hrs of play and a ~6.0 kdr.. I did see them switch to reaper a few times too

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#12
DallasCreeper

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Currently the best defense against botters is an Orblord Vanguard and some friends with EMPs.


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#13
talon70

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At the very least there should be an in game reporting means. Perhaps let some in game anonymods actually help by being able to at least temporarily boot these flagged suspect people from the servers if enough in game complaints are generated. At least limit these suspects to higher level servers to protect the new pilots. I know there are grey areas and problems but mechmods for the forum just seem to be damage control. In game mods could actually have an impact on the game and could help retain new players.


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#14
Tyvec

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It been so bad the last few days

 

Not going to Help/Donate to a game that the Development team cant or wont put in a Anti cheat system

 

 


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#15
CraftyDus

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Anti-cheat would be a great thing to have, but from what I've seen over the years there are really only a handful of cheaters making new accounts and continuing to cheat. ......

Hope that helps. :)

 

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#16
DerMax

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Is there a high enough MMR level that a player can see through walls and specifically come after cloaked mechs on the other side who are trying to take a video?  I'm specifically asking if the SS aimbot program allows them to see stealthed mechs.  I'm getting tired of being told in game by other players that "they're not cheating, they're just really good."  And yet I can be on the other side of a building or wall, absolutely still, watching them in stealth mode, and then they "look" at me, dodge around the edge of the building and take me out.  I'm supposed to believe this is just a "great player"?

People keep calling me a hacker because of this. What they cannot grasp is the fact that any decent player can hear their "stealthy" pred step, crush map debris or grind against a wall like 50 meters away. I hear such a sound close by > I look at the radar > no allies nearby > get rekt skrub. Also, the breacher charging can be heard from Alpha Centauri.

 

That said, if you place yourself in an unusual position and don't move at all, and the dude still beelines to you, that's probably a waller.


Edited by DerMax, 02 August 2016 - 08:50 AM.


#17
harmless_kittens

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What's a "waller"?  Can it be combined with aimboting?



#18
DerMax

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What's a "waller"?  Can it be combined with aimboting?

There's a video somewhere on YouTube of a hacker using his cheat engine in Hawken. He's got an in-game map with everyone's locations, all enemy mechs show through walls, the aimbot snaps to enemies when they get in the vicinity of your crosshair.



#19
Chickin

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"Waller" should be a "wall hacker", player that can see you through any obstacles, across the whole map.


Edited by Chickin, 02 August 2016 - 10:38 AM.

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#20
harmless_kittens

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"Waller" should be a "wall hacker", player that can see you through any obstacles, across the whole map.

Thanks.  This is EXACTLY what the cheater was doing for several nights in a row.  Did this video get sent in/reported?  What are the DEVs doing to fix this, if anything?



#21
Call_Me_Ishmael

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Josh posted about server optimizations and about Microsoft and Sony requirements for clients. 

 

 

 

 

If I had to guess, i'd say packet compression alone would break and prevent  the hacks.  Building with new dx11 and memory architecture and data model changes probably further break hacks.  


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#22
Bleakor

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f

Josh posted about server optimizations and about Microsoft and Sony requirements for clients read the zcode faqs now.

 

 

If I had to guess, i'd say packet compression alone would break and prevent  the hacks.  Building with new dx11 and memory architecture and data model changes probably further break hacks.  

 

I think minecraft has some way of detecting cheaters by looking at their files or something. Is that possible with Hawken?


Edited by Bleakor, 06 December 2016 - 04:30 AM.


#23
ATX22

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I think minecraft has some way of detecting cheaters by looking at their files or something. Is that possible with Hawken?

 

Sure, but once they put an anti-cheat into the game, they'd also have to be keeping an eye out for cheat creators who find ways to circumvent / avoid detection by whatever anti-cheat would be in Hawken.  Boils down to time, money, and amount of effort they're willing to invest into it, once / if they decided it's worth it all in the first place.



#24
harmless_kittens

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OK, I have a question, after 5 nights in a row of aimbots now.  If we can get nine, yea verily, NINE "mech mods" for these forums, can't they hire just ONE person to actually play the game and witness/catch these hackers for themselves?

 

Tonight there was a new player on his FIRST DAY in Hawken, excited to invite 3 of his friends to the game too, when suddenly, you guessed it, a well-known SS aimbot (with a profane name btw) showed up and ruined everything.  Nice intro to Hawken, eh?  I was there thinking about these 9 new mods and wondering why just one of them can't the game and catch these losers.


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#25
ATX22

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OK, I have a question, after 5 nights in a row of aimbots now. If we can get nine, yea verily, NINE "mech mods" for these forums, can't they hire just ONE person to actually play the game and witness/catch these hackers for themselves?

Tonight there was a new player on his FIRST DAY in Hawken, excited to invite 3 of his friends to the game too, when suddenly, you guessed it, a well-known SS aimbot (with a profane name btw) showed up and ruined everything. Nice intro to Hawken, eh? I was there thinking about these 9 new mods and wondering why just one of them can't the game and catch these losers.


Unless there's a "request a mod" button, how are you going to get a mod in-game? Reloaded may not want to pay people to be constantly playing a game to maybe catch a cheater or two, and then deal with the possible "unfairly banned" support tickets this could cause.

#26
harmless_kittens

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Unless there's a "request a mod" button, how are you going to get a mod in-game? Reloaded may not want to pay people to be constantly playing a game to maybe catch a cheater or two, and then deal with the possible "unfairly banned" support tickets this could cause.

It's rather simple, in my humble opinion.  They get a report that a player is using an aimbot (I've sent in several myself).  Then they set up an alert system that let's them know when that player name is online.  The mod (using a generic name so that no one knows they are a mod), logs in to the match and observes and/or records video.  If they know what they're doing it shouldn't take them very long to confirm or deny that the reported person is using a hack.  If they ARE, you close/ban that account per a "zero tolerance" no cheating policy.  

 

How is this that difficult?  I just don't understand needing (apparently) nine different people to moderate a forum where maybe 50 people regularly contribute, but you can't spare even one person to log into a game of hundreds of matches and confirm that someone is cheating.  I, as the consumer, should not be required to record a video (which I have no idea how to do) and do their job (catching hackers) for them, again in my humble opinion.


Edited by harmless_kittens, 04 August 2016 - 12:26 PM.


#27
TheButtSatisfier

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How is this that difficult?

 

Let's start from the top. Full disclosure: I'd find a reporting function pretty nice.

 

It's rather simple, in my humble opinion.  They get a report that a player is using an aimbot (I've sent in several myself).

 

I suspect (read: assume) that there's actually some substantial development involved with that right there. First, there's a UI change to implement the report button. That involves development, testing, and deployment. Then, they have to create a system for that report to go to. Maybe they have an existing ticketing system, maybe they need a new one. Further testing is required to ensure that it works.

 

The mod (using a generic name so that no one knows they are a mod), logs in to the match and observes and/or records video.

 

Right now they probably have to options to observe a hacker: either get in as an actual pilot and mech (so probably a Pred?) and follow the person around - and that might be a waste of time in itself - or use spectator mode. I can tell you from experience that not only is spectator mode wildly deficient in a lot of areas, a spectator in a server will prevent other players from joining. Why? Hell if I know. But troubleshooting that is one thing, developing the code (and testing it, and deploying it) is another.

 

Also keep in mind that while there's multiple mod accounts, we have no way of knowing they're actually assigned to individuals. Additionally, what the mods do isn't exactly time sensitive. Catching a cheater in real-time may require real-time support. What are you going to do about off-hours? Running a 24/7 operation requires 6 personnel. That's a lot of money.

 

While having an alert system in place to notify these theoretical mods when the cheater is online next, there's also a chance that the cheater may not cheat every time they're online (unlikely, I know). I'm stretching here, but if I were building a team to do what you're proposing, this is what I'd be thinking of.

 

 If they ARE, you close/ban that account per a "zero tolerance" no cheating policy.  

 

Oh hey, great. Let's assume all the steps and development effort are actually deployed. Now, you find this cheater / hacker, and bam, they're banned. What about making another account? Oh let's use e-mail verification, sure. They make another e-mail. Well just IP ban them. Ok, now they've rotated their IP by unplugging their moden and plugging it back in the prescripted 20 seconds later. Or they are smarties and mask it somehow.

 

If anything, Reloaded would probably be better off skipping the report button altogether, and instead develop intelligent systems that monitor all players for snapping and other physically impossible things that a normal player couldn't do. That's my armchair advice.

 

I've written all the above so that when the question is ask, "How difficult can this be?", you have a small sample of what's actually involved. In short, probably more than you'd imagine.


Edited by TheButtSatisfier, 04 August 2016 - 12:46 PM.

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#28
Silverfire

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Getting in game reporting seems as easy as going to accounts and switching the feature on.  Current in-game reporting still requires a support ticket to be submitted.

 

Also given the fact that for several days, support tickets about blatant hackers have gone unanswered, I doubt RLD's ability to respond to hackers in a timely fashion right now.


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#29
Hyginos

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3rd party anti cheat clients exist.

 

Also Hawken has a turn rate cap. Breaking that a few times (just in case packet loss does things) should auto-kick you from the server and mark your account, if not ban outright.


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#30
harmless_kittens

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Also keep in mind that while there's multiple mod accounts, we have no way of knowing they're actually assigned to individuals. 

 

 

Can you expand on what you mean by this?  It sounds like you're suggesting the nine mods we've been introduced to are not actually nine different people.

 

I repeat my experiences with other online games, even including the rather childish Free Realms MMO by Sony years ago.  I could create a ticket in-game, and within minutes get a response from a person who would actually meet me "in-game" to resolve my situation.

 

I get it - those games were much bigger than Hawken.  But if we're saying that Reloaded can't afford to pay 3 people to do this (three 8 hour shifts), then that in and of itself says a lot about the current state of the game.


Edited by harmless_kittens, 04 August 2016 - 01:12 PM.


#31
TheButtSatisfier

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Can you expand on what you mean by this?  It sounds like you're suggesting the nine mods we've been introduced to are not actually nine different people.

 

Sort of. I'm saying it's possible that they're not actually nine different people, but ultimately nothing really changes if that's true or not (in the context of moderating the forums).

 

Where it matters is if anyone (not specifically you) assumes that there's now 9 more employees suddenly moderating the forums, they might think those are 9 dedicated full time employees - like Reloaded acquired enough money that now they can hire a bunch of mods. It's much more likely for financial reasons that some combination of the following is true:

  1. they're 9 part-time employees, or
  2. there isn't actually 9 individual people that are assigned 9 individual mod accounts - meaning multiple accounts are assigned to at least one person, or
  3. Reloaded's parent company / sister companies has a bunch of forum moderators which are assigned to moderate forums for multiple games, and now they've also taken the responsibility of moderating the Hawken forums too.

Edited by TheButtSatisfier, 04 August 2016 - 01:22 PM.

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#32
Call_Me_Ishmael

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Also Hawken has a turn rate cap. Breaking that a few times

 

 

Would require a server-side mod to detect every single turning movement by all players on the server, keep memory queue, and perform calcs on it each time.  Not impossible, but will consume server flops/tick budget.

 

Maybe not the right mechanism, IMO.


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#33
ATX22

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Can you expand on what you mean by this?  It sounds like you're suggesting the nine mods we've been introduced to are not actually nine different people.

 

I repeat my experiences with other online games, even including the rather childish Free Realms MMO by Sony years ago.  I could create a ticket in-game, and within minutes get a response from a person who would actually meet me "in-game" to resolve my situation.

 

I get it - those games were much bigger than Hawken.  But if we're saying that Reloaded can't afford to pay 3 people to do this (three 8 hour shifts), then that in and of itself says a lot about the current state of the game.

 

What Reloaded's budget for Hawken is, your guess is as good as mine.  Same for what their micro-transaction sales numbers / profit [loss] numbers are.  What they'd end up paying, say 3 people to respond to game-generated support tickets or whatever form of notification they'd receive (on short notice) is what they wouldn't be spending on new content, servers, code fixes, etc.  

 

Also keep in mind the volume of reports they'd be looking at.  Right now you have to take the time record the cheater, drop out of the game, and submit a ticket before they even have to think about looking into the problem. Then they can review it on a "when they feel like it" basis and maybe get back to you.  If they were to slap a button on the in-game UI, it'd need one heck of a cool-down because that's 11+ (late-joiners / leavers could increase this number) potential reports per game that a cheater is present that they're looking at.  More if they allow you to mash the report button "for effect".

 

It'd be nice if Hawken had something like the good old HLTV that we could use, but no such luck.. 



#34
devotion

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Is there a high enough MMR level that a player can... specifically come after cloaked mechs?

exceptionally good players have enough awareness to be able to predict your general location pretty much at all times. they also are attuned to even slight noises like footsteps or cockpit whir when you mouse to look around, which can give them more information to locate you.



#35
Silverfire

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exceptionally good players have enough awareness to be able to predict your general location pretty much at all times. they also are attuned to even slight noises like footsteps or cockpit whir when you mouse to look around, which can give them more information to locate you.

 

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#36
TheButtSatisfier

TheButtSatisfier

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Asus. Sonic. Radar.

 

Ugh, that thing again.


8) Tech in the streets, Brawler in the sheets (8





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