25 replies to this topic

[chuiu]

So I've always felt like Hawken was half a mech game.  It has mechs, yes, but its missing a few key components that are part of every good mech game.

 

1.  Parts and weapons.  Mechs are about building your mech, customizing it to fit your play style, and slowly upgrading and changing out parts until you find something that works for you.  Hawken could do this, leave the body where it is and focus on legs, boosters, arms, and internals like engine, coolant, radar, battery, etc.   Different parts for different class of mechs.  You can even add specific part sets for different classes, like C class mechs can choose from different types of armor that give it resistance to different types or weapons or varying levels of protection to different parts of your body.

 

That above is a mountain of content that gives players tons of stuff to work for and buy in game with Hawken credits or K2 Kreds.  And it gives players a way of making their favorite mech play more to their preferred playstyle.
 

Weapons frees you up from designing new entire new mechs and continues to add variety and complexity to the game.

 

Adhesive tried to do this with tuning but they got it wrong by giving players too much freedom and doing it in a style that didn't really feel like customizing a mech.  And it wasn't something they could monetize or added play time in the game.

 

1.5  Loadouts and money.  Allow people to choose different loadouts for their mechs while in a match.  Your one mech setup can't be perfect in every situation.  Give players the choice to bring in multiple different setups that they have to decide before going into a match.  Since you're adding a lot of parts to the game you're also going to need to give players more money, because the current rate of income is a bit slow for these additions.  This is probably obvious but I feel like a lot of things that could fix this game are obvious.

 

2.  Get rid of the non-mech mechs.  Sharpshooter, Technician, and reaper don't belong in this game.  They belong in team based FPS games, yes, but not this style of FPS game.  All they do is force players to play more like a normal FPS, in a game that isn't.  Technician doesn't make the team focus more like a team, it tips the balance of the game in favor of the team with one to the point where the other team almost needs to get one to combat it.  On teams of equal skill level a technician will tip the balance of the game.

 

3.  Make the time to kill longer.  Its too fast right now.  Mechs are all about long fights with lots of ups and downs that make the combat interesting.  You're piloting an armored lumbering tank-like killing machine.  Fights should last much longer than they currently do, self healing should take longer than it currently does.  You will promote team play by doing this because players will be able to support each other when another is engaged in a fight around the corner.  This makes the utilities that people can buy more useful because their effects will have more of an impact on a fight, not the deciding factor of the fight (ie: emp someone and then destroy them before they regain weapons).  And by making time to kill longer and removing the technician, you force players to play more intelligently and carefully.  Actually having to think and plan their attack ahead of time, and even the parts or mechs they want to take.

 

4.  This isn't exactly the spirit of a mech game, but I feel like this is necessary for Hawken as well.  Also, a lot of people will hate me for this suggestion but... Get rid of deathmatch and team death match and add other more interesting game modes.  Here are a few ideas:  

 

Infiltration, where you have to progress through a series of capture points and reach your opponents base.  You can probably modify a couple maps to work with this game mode.  This is different from Missile Assault by making it more linear.

 

Power core, basically team death match (I know I just said remove it) but instead of just tallying kills you need to kill someone and then obtain their dropped power core from their mech.

 

Attack/Defend, a two-part game mode where one team will try to defend a location and another team tries to attack and destroy it.  Then after one match, the teams swap so that the team that was defending is now attacking.  Then the team with the best score at the end is the winner.

Edited by chuiu, 10 April 2015 - 12:35 PM.

[Elite_is_salty]

I'm holding myself from replying with 30 lines of "no, no, no, no ..."

[SandSpider2]

You kind of sound like you want Hawken to be a simulator. Hawken is a fast paced fps, it's not mech warrior.

[Amidatelion]

They belong in team based FPS games, yes, but not this style of FPS game.  

 

But this is that style of FPS game. You have some major misconceptions about what Hawken is.

[Hijinks_The_Turtle]

2.  Get rid of the non-mech mechs.  Sharpshooter, Technician, and reaper don't belong in this game.  They belong in team based FPS games, yes, but not this style of FPS game.  All they do is force players to play more like a normal FPS, in a game that isn't.  Technician doesn't make the team focus more like a team, it tips the balance of the game in favor of the team with one to the point where the other team almost needs to get one to combat it.  On teams of equal skill level a technician will tip the balance of the game.

Um....What?  Sharpie and Reaper are definitely mechs, in MWO you have mechs that use long range weapons (gauss cannon, PPC, and other stuff) such as these.  So are you saying you want to remove those weapons away from them as well for not being 'mech' like for having long range weaponry?  Also, who would be crazy enough to not have long range weapon using mechs?

 

Not to mention, the definition of 'mech' is very subjective.

Edited by Hijinks_The_Turtle, 10 April 2015 - 12:51 PM.

[(KDR) Subdivision]

Yeah, Hawken isn't a mech game in the sense of the mech game genre. It is an FPS game as the others have said. It's easier to think of Hawken as an FPS with mech skins for the players

Edited by Subdivision, 10 April 2015 - 12:52 PM.

[Hijinks_The_Turtle]

 

4.  This isn't exactly the spirit of a mech game, but I feel like this is necessary for Hawken as well.  Also, a lot of people will hate me for this suggestion but... Get rid of deathmatch and team death match and add other more interesting game modes.  Here are a few ideas:  

 

Infiltration, where you have to progress through a series of capture points and reach your opponents base.  You can probably modify a couple maps to work with this game mode.  This is different from Missile Assault by making it more linear.

 

Power core, basically team death match (I know I just said remove it) but instead of just tallying kills you need to kill someone and then obtain their dropped power core from their mech.

 

Attack/Defend, a two-part game mode where one team will try to defend a location and another team tries to attack and destroy it.  Then after one match, the teams swap so that the team that was defending is now attacking.  Then the team with the best score at the end is the winner.

 

The only things I think would be real cool would be these modes here.  They seem decent, not sure about power core though...

[Panzermanathod]

You're talking about what mechs "should" be about when, really, the things you said aren't really the rule to mech games. I'm not against customization but there comes a point where for certain games it might not be necessary.

 

Mechs aren't about building. A number of them do involve this in some fashion, although same can be said in non-mech games with equipping things.

 

Saying that healing/sniping mechs don't belong in a mech game... Front Mission would like a word with you.

 

Why get rid of deathmatch? It's the shortest game mode for people who has time for a few quick games before needing to do something else. It seems unfair to remove it because you don't think it fits.

[124eric456]

DO NOT DROP ANY MECHS BUT IF PEOPLE WANT THE TYPE OF GAME HE SUGESTS ADD THEM BUT LEAVE THE REST AS THE ARE OR YOU WILL RUIN A BRLL GAME 

[Interrobang87]

*popcorn*

[HorseHeadProphet]

Wow. I'm just stunned. I wonder how much cocaine they was on when they wrote that.

 

Sounds like you need to make your own game.

 

"Remake the game the way I want it to be, otherwise it sucks."

 

 

 

unbelievable

Edited by HorseHeadProphet, 10 April 2015 - 04:26 PM.

[Panzermanathod]

Be nice. And recommend him an Armored Core game. Given the customization options he seems to want, you can't do customizations for mechs better than Armored Core.

[chuiu]

I've played all the Armored Core games.  The new ones suck.

"Remake the game the way I want it to be, otherwise it sucks."

I like how everyone just instantly demonizes me instead of taking an objective look at my suggestions. If this is how the Hawken community is its no wonder why the game is so dead.

[Bad_BennyAK]

Yes.  Not an AC fan.    NOW.... if any of you have played that AMAZING gem of a mech game, CARNAGE HEART.....    

 

WOW!!!  I'd maybe like to see some of THAT!!   

 

Typical mech game,  except, you have to program your mech AI,  and buy circuits and transistors,  etc,   develop behavior programs, and logic loops.  

 

Even though that was an old PS1 game,  (Worth getting an emulator on your PC for, )  The concept and execution is still mind-blowing to me!

[Panzermanathod]

I've played all AC's aside from the PS3/360 games (I have no consoles newer than PS2) and Formula Front.

 

I did take an objective look at your suggestions. But let's look over your suggestions again...

 

You want to add lots more customization options, Add variable loadout systems, get rid of mechs you feel don't belong in the game, make fights longer, make self healing less effective, remove the standard Deathmatch types, and add in other modes. All in an attempt to changes how the game flows completely into a more ideal (to you) mech game.

 

You are suggesting a number of critical changes that boil down to making Hawken a totally different game you would play. And that's the thing, your suggestions aren't totally objective. Several times you mention that, as a mech game, there are other prerequisites you feel Hawken should have.

 

 

 

It has mechs, yes, but its missing a few key components that are part of every good mech game.

 

 Mechs are about building your mech, customizing it to fit your play style, and slowly upgrading and changing out parts until you find something that works for you. 
 

Adhesive tried to do this with tuning but they got it wrong by giving players too much freedom and doing it in a style that didn't really feel like customizing a mech. 

 

2.  Get rid of the non-mech mechs.  Sharpshooter, Technician, and reaper don't belong in this game.  They belong in team based FPS games, yes, but not this style of FPS game.  All they do is force players to play more like a normal FPS, in a game that isn't.  Technician doesn't make the team focus more like a team, it tips the balance of the game in favor of the team with one to the point where the other team almost needs to get one to combat it.  On teams of equal skill level a technician will tip the balance of the game.

 

Mechs are all about long fights with lots of ups and downs that make the combat interesting.  You're piloting an armored lumbering tank-like killing machine.  Fights should last much longer than they currently do,

 

 

As such, unfortunately, the bulk of the responders aren't taking you seriously because, yes, your post does  boil down to...

 

 

"Remake the game the way I want it to be, otherwise it sucks."

 

[RedVan]

I've heard MWO is a game that exists...

I've played all the Armored Core games. The new ones suck.


I like how everyone just instantly demonizes me instead of taking an objective look at my suggestions. If this is how the Hawken community is its no wonder why the game is so ded.

Actually, search threads by Nept, he's actually got a good idea of why it's low population.

And the reason people aren't taking "objective looks" at your suggestions is because we've seen and beat them to death a million times already. The biggest of which is: what makes a "good mech game" is entirely opinion...

Edited by RedVan, 10 April 2015 - 06:51 PM.

[chuiu]

You want to add lots more customization options, Add variable loadout systems, get rid of mechs you feel don't belong in the game, make fights longer, make self healing less effective, remove the standard Deathmatch types, and add in other modes. All in an attempt to changes how the game flows completely into a more ideal (to you) mech game.

Actually most of the things I listed bring Hawken back to the game it was before Technician was added. Back then we had a tech tree where we could customize our mechs for speed, offense, defense or a mix of the three. We didn't have very strong self healing and a mech that could repair us. The time to kill was longer and fights were more fun and games were less imbalanced because of it.

So really if you take a look at my post, what I'm asking for is the old Hawken with a couple changes.

[Panzermanathod]

Are you including the stat thing even you said was a mistake on the old dev's part?

 

And even if some of this is "make Hawken what it was before", which I cannot comment on, the new changes you do propose are still major, and all your suggestions are still essentially remaking the game. Especially the customization options (which not everyone is into, at least not at the depth you gave as an example).

 

And if you want Techs gone, fine. I disagree, but fine. But removing the snipers? That's too much, I think.

[Lioot]

Actually most of the things I listed bring Hawken back to the game it was before Technician was added. Back then we had a tech tree where we could customize our mechs for speed, offense, defense or a mix of the three. We didn't have very strong self healing and a mech that could repair us. The time to kill was longer and fights were more fun and games were less imbalanced because of it.

So really if you take a look at my post, what I'm asking for is the old Hawken with a couple changes.

 

I think Hawken has been changed for the better, back with the "skill trees", higher level players with low MMR had a distinct advantage over lower level players. While this may seem the same now, with the internals which are level locked, I don't think the difference is as big, especially with the LOADEDASSAULT code and the new mech that is given

[bacon_avenger]

I think Hawken has been changed for the better, back with the "skill trees", higher level players with low MMR had a distinct advantage over lower level players. While this may seem the same now, with the internals which are level locked, I don't think the difference is as big, especially with the LOADEDASSAULT code and the new mech that is given

Wait what? 

 

Do you remember the values that were present in the old optimization tree that chuiu is referring to?

 

We are talking fractions of a percent for most, and those that were not fractions were tiny improvements.

 

In fact, I found an old screenshot of it on the IGN hawken wiki (which looks like it hasn't been updated since early open beta):

 

 

It's not exactly high resolution, but if you zoom in, you can see that the increases are point-$NUM percent.

 

Which, if you recall, were deliberately nerfed into the ground to be mostly irrelevant until the horizontal progression tree was implemented.

 

This is one of those things that really points out how much it sucks to have lost the old forums, all this data was still available in the closed beta forum archives and were publicly accessible.

 

Side note, I noticed that some parts of the alpha forum were still accessible on the old forums.  I really wish I could have made a copy of those before it all went away.

Edited by bacon_avenger, 10 April 2015 - 08:49 PM.

[Lioot]

Wait what? 

 

Do you remember the values that were present in the old optimization tree that chuiu is referring to?

 

We are talking fractions of a percent for most, and those that were not fractions were tiny improvements.

 

In fact, I found an old screenshot of it on the IGN hawken wiki (which looks like it hasn't been updated since early open beta):

 

 

It's not exactly high resolution, but if you zoom in, you can see that the increases are point-$NUM percent.

 

Which, if you recall, were deliberately nerfed into the ground to be mostly irrelevant until the horizontal progression tree was implemented.

 

This is one of those things that really points out how much it sucks to have lost the old forums, all this data was still available in the closed beta forum archives and were publicly accessible.

 

Side note, I noticed that some parts of the alpha forum were still accessible on the old forums.  I really wish I could have made a copy of those before it all went away.

 

I think its a large amount :P

[BaronSaturday]

You know what I thought would be cool? Pick a frame. That frame has an engine and the weapon and dictates your weightclas. It would also have a battery and fuel tank. You pick your chasis which decides what types of internal you can have and what weapons besides the frame locked one. Your legs decide your run speed, boosters decide boost speed and air speed. All of the components have an armor rating as well and would vonsume power from tge battery

Also, each frame has a pristige primary so the Tech can have that bizarre PNG that still has weapon spread for whatever reason.

Edited by SaturdayGhede, 10 April 2015 - 09:49 PM.

[M4st0d0n]

No the old skilltree was with very small amounts of bonuses. And it was not worth to spend any points in other branches than the mobility.

 

What gave significant bonuses were the internals. But they gave maluses too. So it was more of a sidegrade thing. Not balanced, but sidegrade.

 

Now we have an "horizontal" tree giving strictly bonuses. You can just turn your screen a quarter counterclockwise to see how "horizontal" it is. And internals are direct upgrades. I could also say they're a bit cheesy. Failsafe, AC, evasive device comes to mind.

[-Tj-]

You know what I thought would be cool? Pick a frame. That frame has an engine and the weapon and dictates your weightclas. It would also have a battery and fuel tank. You pick your chasis which decides what types of internal you can have and what weapons besides the frame locked one. Your legs decide your run speed, boosters decide boost speed and air speed. All of the components have an armor rating as well and would vonsume power from tge battery

Also, each frame has a pristige primary so the Tech can have that bizarre PNG that still has weapon spread for whatever reason.

 

But... isn't that pretty much MechWarrior?

[Rchive]

I agree that the customizability in HAWKEN is not the greatest, but I also agree with some other people that an Armored Core level of customization is not what HAWKEN needs. I'd like to see customizing that isn't just "pick a class" and then "pick from 3 tiers of only like 5 internals options".

I'd also like the classes to be actually different from each other and not just a weight class with a small weapon pool. There are 18 classes last I counted, and only 23 primary weapons. Only a small handful of classes have unique secondaries - almost half have TOW rocket, and another handful has grenade launcher. If you're gonna have different classes they should actually be different. If you're gonna have just different combinations of the same stuff, then just let us pick any weapons and abilities and put them on any frame, and then adjust our other stats based on what weapons we picked...

[SoldierHobbes11]

I think the main thing I see for you is that you want to see Hawken become more like a mech simulator like MWO. Just to clear this up, Hawken was never meant to be like that. The developers based the game off of the Unreal Tournament games more so than the mech warrior games. The FPS Area aspects of the game are very much intentional and are most likely the style at which the devs will push the game. The "mech simulator" aspects are secondary and will be in the game, but aren't the main priority. These are just my observations.