16 replies to this topic

[Necro]

If you didn't notice I started a discussion HERE about people not having fun because of the amount of people quitting games. Right now we don't know if it's because of a small number of player or a faulty matchmaker but if it doesn't solve itself in time I would like something to be done about it. These I feel are the most fair rewards and punishments that came out of the discussion so far.


Have a "Player Rating" variable, that whenever someone quits a game while they're on the losing team they are given a prompt that a player will need to be found before they leave and ask them to keep playing until one is found. They are also given the choice to leave. (decrease the kick for afk to 30-45 seconds until the system is sure they are playing) If they instead leave while a player is not found, PLUS They go play a different match OR go afk in that match subtract 1 to The "player rating".  Then for matchmaking, use their level minus how much Player Rating they have to match them with players (ex. You're level 10 and you have -1 "player rating" point, for matchmaking you're considered a level 9). Whenever they stay to the end of a match, If they lose the match, they Gain 1 "Player Rating" point for not quitting and if they win the match, they gain 1/2 of a "player rating" . This keeps the Rage quitters out of high level play, while low levels get rewarded by having much less rage quitters over time.

In addition a "player rating" might be visible in a players name or stats for other players, but is not needed. "Player rating" could also do something positive like determine the reward below but it would not put people into higher level matches. The only down side so far are players quitting on purpose to get into low level play but a cap could be put on negative player rating and after that start increasing the time it takes for players to find a match using the matchmaker or lock them out of that game mode.

This idea however doesn't solve rage quitting for server browsers!
_____________________________________________________________________________________

For rewards the most simple but also most appealing idea i feel is a form of rolling rewards.

For every match a player stays in the same lobby give them a rolling bonus (may or may not have a cap) to convince players to stay in the same lobby and not quit.
_____________________________________________________________________________________

If you feel this doesn't solve anything at all please continue discussing HERE

Edited by Necro, November 23 2012 - 03:21 PM.

[z121231211]

Why do you need two topics_ Just post this in the other topic you mentioned and continue on.

[NBShoot_me]

Necro, on November 23 2012 - 02:13 PM, said:

If you didn't notice I started a discussion HERE about people not having fun because of the amount of people quitting games. Right now we don't know if it's because of a small number of player or a faulty matchmaker but if it doesn't solve itself in time I would like something to be done about it. These I feel are the most fair rewards and punishments that came out of the discussion so far.


Have a "Player Rating" variable, that whenever someone quits a game while they're on the losing team they are given a prompt that a player will need to be found before they leave and ask them to keep playing until one is found. They are also given the choice to leave. (decrease the kick for afk to 30-45 seconds until the system is sure they are playing) If they instead leave while a player is not found, PLUS They go play a different match OR go afk in that match subtract 1 to The "player rating".  Then for matchmaking, use their level minus how much Player Rating they have to match them with players (ex. You're level 10 and you have -1 "player rating" point, for matchmaking you're considered a level 9). Whenever they stay to the end of a match, If they lose the match, they Gain 1 "Player Rating" point for not quitting and if they win the match, they gain 1/2 of a "player rating" . This keeps the Rage quitters out of high level play, while low levels get rewarded by having much less rage quitters over time.

In addition a "player rating" might be viable in a players name or stats for other players, but is not needed. "Player rating" could also do something positive like determine the reward below but it would not put people into higher level matches. The only down side so far are players quitting on purpose to get into low level play but a cap could be put on negative player rating and after that start increasing the time it takes for players to find a match using the matchmaker or lock them out of that game mode.

This idea however doesn't solve rage quitting for server browsers!
_____________________________________________________________________________________

For rewards the most simple but also most appealing idea i feel is a form of rolling rewards.

For every match a player stays in the same lobby give them a rolling bonus (may or may not have a cap) to convince players to stay in the same lobby and not quit.
_____________________________________________________________________________________

If you feel this doesn't solve anything at all please continue discussing HERE

With the current match making, you’d have to basically finish the match if you’re going to rely on the current system to “find a player” so that you can quit.  If Hawken becomes very popular when it goes live, hopefully it’ll reach a point where it wouldn’t matter if you have a near constant cycling of players entering and leaving mid-match.  The current system should attempt to find a new player to replace a leaving one without having to prompt the leaving player.  Besides, what if someone decides to just yank their network cable to get timed-out rather than leave via an exit button_

Also, if you start a separate leveling system for staying in-game, why would you WANT a high level once Hawken goes live_  It’d only have a negative effect on a player if the Hawken player base is tiny or the “fixed” match making system remains as bad as it currently is.  Then you just have a steady stream of new or not-so-good players cycling through for your trolling pleasure.  You’d actually be rewarding rage-quitting!

And for the same reason you don’t want global stats thrown around for all to see, you’d have people segregating themselves based upon yet some other stat number.  For the same reason I’m not seeing the ability to give a person a negative vote on these forums, I really don’t think the devs would want to back-track and have an automated system do the same thing they don’t allow here.  Then it’s “you’re score isn’t high enough, your opinion don’t count!11!!oneonenoe”

If you add a MM wait time penalty, then you’re asking for trouble as said people will overflow into the server browser listed games and troll there.  Do you REALLY want that_

And what’s with this “If you feel this doesn't solve anything at all please continue discussing HERE” line_  Either you’re creating a useless thread that’s already covered, or you are discouraging any kind of criticism or discussion of your ideas, which, at that point, why did you create this thread_

Sorry if this sounds harsh (not really), but I’ve seen these PUNISH THEM movements in other games before, and it almost always backfires.

[Necro]

z121231211, on November 23 2012 - 02:45 PM, said:

Why do you need two topics_ Just post this in the other topic you mentioned and continue on.

They are separate threads, This is my suggestion and the other one is the discussion. The other thread was meant to be in the discussion thread I just can't move it after posting it in the wrong section.

Edited by Necro, November 23 2012 - 03:20 PM.

[Necro]

NBShoot_me, on November 23 2012 - 02:46 PM, said:

If Hawken becomes very popular when it goes live, hopefully it’ll reach a point where it wouldn't matter if you have a near constant cycling of players entering and leaving mid-match.  The current system should attempt to find a new player to replace a leaving one without having to prompt the leaving player.

Yes, exactly I hope it does get to that point, this is a suggestion to put in place if it does not fix it self with time/more players. and it would find a player automatically but if a player wasn't found the prompt would be given.

Besides, what if someone decides to just yank their network cable to get timed-out rather than leave via an exit button_

Nothing with this syatem there are not any ways to give punitive measure to those who decide to Dc and those who Crash/Dc. Think of a way yourself rather then asking me as i have not so i didn't include one.

Also, if you start a separate leveling system for staying in-game, why would you WANT a high level once Hawken goes live_  It’d only have a negative effect on a player if the Hawken player base is tiny or the “fixed” match making system remains as bad as it currently is.  Then you just have a steady stream of new or not-so-good players cycling through for your trolling pleasure.  You’d actually be rewarding rage-quitting!

Not sure what your point is here_ please explain as i'm not sure what your trying to fix/comment on_

And for the same reason you don’t want global stats thrown around for all to see, you’d have people segregating themselves based upon yet some other stat number.  

As I said it's not needed to be shown for this very reason, I would not be in favor of showing it but some others may be.

If you add a MM wait time penalty, then you’re asking for trouble as said people will overflow into the server browser listed games and troll there.  Do you REALLY want that_

As I said it's not needed for this very reason, I would not be in favor of having it but some others may be.

And what’s with this “If you feel this doesn't solve anything at all please continue discussing HERE” line_  Either you’re creating a useless thread that’s already covered, or you are discouraging any kind of criticism or discussion of your ideas, which, at that point, why did you create this thread_

In that thread is the discussion that lead me to this suggestion, I don't want to split the discussion into 2 forums. The other thread was meant to be put int the discussion thread but I mistakenly put it into the suggestion thread so please discuss it there for the ease of keeping the conversation in one place.

Edited by Necro, November 23 2012 - 03:24 PM.

[NBShoot_me]

Necro, on November 23 2012 - 03:10 PM, said:

NBShoot_me, on November 23 2012 - 02:46 PM, said:

If Hawken becomes very popular when it goes live, hopefully it’ll reach a point where it wouldn't matter if you have a near constant cycling of players entering and leaving mid-match.  The current system should attempt to find a new player to replace a leaving one without having to prompt the leaving player.

Yes,

!!SNIP!!

ARG!! MY EYES!!

For the love of... please stop using a red font color.  It's a PAIN to read.  Especailly when you're typing right into the quote box used for the post you're quoting/replying to.  Red on light grey is a pain to read!  (not much better on the default dark grey)

The rest, how about we please not start up the piecemeal responding.  I *can* do that too, but it gets tedious and stuff gets taken out of context very easily and usually very quickly, but if you must, please do it right and use the quote blocks properly.

Edited by NBShoot_me, November 23 2012 - 03:22 PM.

[Necro]

Your snip left out the most important part btw.

"and it would find a player automatically but if a player wasn't found the prompt would be given."

It would work how it already does but leaving when it hurts the team is fuzzy bunny so stick around for a few seconds and keep playing till someone is q'ed.

[NBShoot_me]

Necro, on November 23 2012 - 03:29 PM, said:

Your snip left out the most important part btw.

"and it would find a player automatically but if a player wasn't found the prompt would be given."

It would work how it already does but leaving when it hurts the team is fuzzy bunny so stick around for a few seconds and keep playing till someone is q'ed.

Actually, my "snip" left out pretty much EVERYTHING you posted, to if nothing else emphasize your misuse of the font options on this board, but if I have to explain it, well, just like having to explain the punch-line of a joke, you know how it goes.

As I posted earlier, I don't care to reply to people who do piecemeal responses, it's a weak method of arguing with somone that is generally used to force them to be defensive and to keep them focused on what YOU think is their weakest argument.  It's a great way to troll, don't get me wrong, but I don't really want to venture down that path here.

Thanks for changing the font color, I'll get around to reading that post later.  As for the rest of your last response:

Online match makers don't typically work that way UNLESS you're going to enforce a timer (like WoW) that makes you wait before you can actually disconnect.  Are you proposing that a player waits at the quit prompt IDLE until it gives them the OK (essentially AFK at this point, results in team being down a player)_  Or force them to trudge along while they get a "waiting" status on their HUD to wonder when if ever they can quit_  Of course, this still doesn't even come close to addressing any of the other related changes you proposed.

For this single suggestion out of your list, it boils down to one thing: How long should a player wait ONCE he/she makes the decision that he or she wants to quit to avoid being PUNISHED for commiting such a crime as wanting to leave before the end of a game.  Of course, not addressed, is also, what game modes should these even apply to_  Seige and Missle Defense_  If it had to be, probably.  Team Deathmatch_  Maybe.  Deathmatch_  Heck no.

Now, if the cherry picking and piecemeal responses continue and I acutally feel like responding I'm going to make a HUGE single paragraph with little to no punctuation and make sure I jump around enough on the topics that even J. R. R. Tolkien would be proud from here on.

Edited by NBShoot_me, November 23 2012 - 05:50 PM.

[Necro]

The red is fine to me prolly cuz i'm slightly color blind but i changed it to make it easier, I think.

That form of responding actually makes it easier to read and less confusing to what I'm trying to comment on because right now i'm not sure what your trying to say, the modes it would be in and the time someone would have to wait_

The modes it would be in are self explanatory and the amount of time one would have to wait is up to the devs, I wouldn't say more then

Necro, on November 23 2012 - 03:29 PM, said:

a few seconds

Maybe_

[NBShoot_me]

Necro, on November 23 2012 - 06:24 PM, said:

The red is fine to me prolly cuz i'm slightly color blind but i changed it to make it easier, I think.

That form of responding actually makes it easier to read and less confusing to what I'm trying to comment on because right now i'm not sure what your trying to say, the modes it would be in and the time someone would have to wait_

The modes it would be in are self explanatory and the amount of time one would have to wait is up to the devs, I wouldn't say more then

Necro, on November 23 2012 - 03:29 PM, said:

a few seconds

Maybe_

Well then, let’s take another look at what you’re proposing:

You want a player rating system in place that:

• Tracks if a player leaves a game in progress utilizing a ranking system of a yet to be defined scale (min – max).
  
  
• Deducts one (1) point when a player opts to disconnect or is kicked due to inactivity provided that a set of conditions are not met (see 5 and 6).
  
  
• If a player remains connect till the end of a match, add one and a half (1.5) points if this player is on the winning team, and one (1) point if the player is on the losing team.  No minimum in-game time specified.
  
  
• Provided match making will or currently takes a players combined or top mech level into consideration for match making, combine mech ranking along with your suggested “Player Rating” to raise or lower the tier (_) that the in-game match maker will place said player in.  Example, an overall ranking of 15 combined with a “Player Rating” of -4 will result in a player being matched up with other players of a score of 11 with +/- variance depending on what would be an acceptable match making spread on the score.
  
  
• Decrease AFK timer to 30 – 45 seconds
  
  
• Provide a player with a prompt to allow MM to “find” a replacement for them prior to them leaving as a way to avoid punishment.
  
  
• Provide incentives for people to maintain high “Player Ratings” in the form of a rewards, as of yet to be defined.
  
  
• Leave the possibility open for the “Player Rating” rankings to be made public (i.e. shame your “bad” players).
  
  
• Increase wait to connect time for players with a low (negative) enough score.
  
  
• Limit the negative affect the “Player Rating” will have on Match Making as a preventative measure to keep people from purposefully affecting their own Match Maker ranking (see 4).  No cap level specified.

It was also noted that most of this system is circumvented by the use of the server browser, even if the only punishment is the lack of “rolling rewards”.

The modes that this would apply to were NOT specified (or implied), and by modes I’m talking about Deathmatch, Team Deathmatch, Siege, and Missile Defense.  Remember, that if the devs start the habit of capitulating to whomever complains the loudest, you could end up with this applying to ALL game modes.  If the ranking system is made public, think of XVM for WoT.  If you don’t know about XVM, just be glad Hawken doesn’t have its equivalent.  And don’t forget that this system can be abused; even you mentioned one instance as to how and had to add in yet another link in an already lengthy chain here.  You also mentioned that this system doesn’t even begin to address rage quitting when the server browser comes into play.  If not already addressed, at least for a short time, you could also run into a problem where the last standing player has to wait the maximum "find a player" time if he or she wants to leave an EMPTY server.

My stance is that the devs need to figure out what is causing the conditions in game to be met that bring some or a sizable number of the player base to the decision to outright QUIT mid-game.  If it’s bad match making, skill / level imbalances, mech balance problems, or server latency issues, I’d rather them focus on fixing THOSE issues than finding ways to place the “bad” players in a corner as punishment.  I’d rather have an enjoyable game to play than one that is mired in an overly complex set of rules and punishments.  If I want that, I don’t need to play video games, I already have to deal with real life and real world laws, regulations, ordinances, and the like.

Edited by NBShoot_me, November 23 2012 - 08:14 PM.

[Necro]

Thanks you for pointing out the flaws to improve it even though i don't feel like that was your intention.
I am not a full time game designer I am a beta tester that sat for an hour looking through his thread and added what seemed to make sense.

Please do not insult the developers intelligence by saying they would implement this idea in it's current state.

Also.

Necro, on November 23 2012 - 02:13 PM, said:

Right now we don't know if it's because of a small number of player or a faulty matchmaker but if it doesn't solve itself in time I would like something to be done about it.

Please note that feel the same way about that you do about a punitive system being implemented.

[h0B0]

z121231211, on November 23 2012 - 02:45 PM, said:

Why do you need two topics_ Just post this in the other topic you mentioned and continue on.

that^

The easiest way to fix this issue right now is to remove forced matchmaking.
Players will naturally gravitate torwards higher populated servers and the problem will fix itself.

[Necro]

^

Necro, on November 23 2012 - 02:56 PM, said:

They are separate threads, This is my suggestion and the other one is the discussion. The other thread was meant to be in the discussion thread I just can't move it after posting it in the wrong section.

[NBShoot_me]

Necro, on November 23 2012 - 09:22 PM, said:

Thanks you for pointing out the flaws to improve it even though i don't feel like that was your intention.
I am not a full time game designer I am a beta tester that sat for an hour looking through his thread and added what seemed to make sense.

Please do not insult the developers intelligence by saying they would implement this idea in it's current state.

Also.

Necro, on November 23 2012 - 02:13 PM, said:

Right now we don't know if it's because of a small number of player or a faulty matchmaker but if it doesn't solve itself in time I would like something to be done about it.

Please note that feel the same way about that you do about a punitive system being implemented.

Yes, I put THAT much effort into posting long replies and even analyzed and reanalyzed your proposals for what… trolling you_  Really_  I could have just as easily put no effort into one-liner posts simply telling you that I think you’re wrong.

My intention is to spur discussion so that if there is anything good about what’s being proposed, that can be capitalized and improved while that which is not can be removed.  What other point is there_

You also don’t have to be a full time game designer, or even part time, or even have any game design experience to come up with ideas, but you need to be open to criticism regardless of experience.

I’m glad I could help you improve upon your idea, I still think punishing people in a F2P online game with even less holding them to it than a P2W or traditional retail game isn't the way to go, but everyone has their own perspective on things.

Necro, on November 23 2012 - 09:22 PM, said:

Please do not insult the developers intelligence by saying they would implement this idea in it's current state.

…. Just… wow.  OK, hilarious brown nosing attempt, it is.. it really is.  Because now you’re conceding that what you proposed is a bad idea to boot.  I’ve been posting on forums (or was it IRC or over telnet...) since the old Quake days, and I wish I could say this wasn’t something I’ve seen a lot.  This is COMPLETELY not needed.  And if you go back and read what I said, it was (not verbatim):  If the developers start changing their game based upon what the loudest group of this community demand, you’ll get changes well beyond what was initially intended.  Or, in short: beware of the unintended consequences.  I am not insulting the developers and unfortunately, this is NOT something that is new to F2P gaming.  Even post closed beta.  It is something to AVOID.

A few VERY important points to remember:

The server browser was intentionally removed to test the in game MM.  Turns out it doesn’t work very well.  Hopefully they’ll be able to tweak it before open beta and the return of the server browser (whenever they decided to re enable it).

The player base is currently SMALL, so even with the MM in its current form, it’s not going to represent how the game works with a larger player base.  If the player base were sufficiently large, it’d probably work ok, though not perfect.

Punishments you add now will have far reaching effects on how popular this game is in the future, especially when like I posted earlier, the player base will be larger and will change the MM experience players get, even with the current system which WON’T be mandatory (server browser) forever.


EDIT:  And to the below specifically:

Necro, on November 23 2012 - 09:22 PM, said:

Please note that feel the same way about that you do about a punitive system being implemented.

Then don’t create and base your proposals for a punitive system around a temporary MM system that is being tested for the sole purpose of being changed under controlled non-production test conditions.  If you must, you need to try and look at it from all angles, even if that involves some wild guessing and estimating.  If, after doing so you still see a need for such a system, base it upon what you can at least guess open beta conditions will be as developers generally don’t put the amount of work required to make such a system, only to scrap it once the game is released to the general public.

Edited by NBShoot_me, November 24 2012 - 12:21 PM.

[ReachH]

auto balance every few minutes. (based on number of people per team, just take the lowest scoring people on the weighted team and move them to the smaller team)

[Etan]

auto balance should be a option for some servers. its not a solution to fix teams in matchmaking permantly

[NBShoot_me]

An auto-balance system would be nice, but you still risk even further emptying a match out if players aren’t steadily cycling in as people getting moved off the team with the high performing players may just leave (or if the good player gets moved, the people on the once over performing now underperforming team may leave.. already seen THAT happen).  Though, it would at least solve the 2 vs 6 team lineups.

With the absurdly small teams, no way to limit the mech level difference issues (lvl 0 vs lvl 15), and lack of choice in where you play, servers are going to empty out especially while you can have one or two players essentially dictate the outcome of a game.  People don't like losing, but they hate not even having a fighting chance, mix in lack of choice (no server browser/ current MM) and you have a pile of fail.