38 replies to this topic

[BlackCephie]

One thing to note is that in skirmishes, the HEAT is easier to land if you fire on a grounded opponent from hovering.

[AsianJoyKiller]

BlackCephie, on November 25 2012 - 04:26 PM, said:

One thing to note is that in skirmishes, the HEAT is easier to land if you fire on a grounded opponent from hovering.

I find hovering people just as easy to hit as a person on the ground.

[D20Face]

AsianJoyKiller, on November 25 2012 - 04:39 PM, said:

BlackCephie, on November 25 2012 - 04:26 PM, said:

One thing to note is that in skirmishes, the HEAT is easier to land if you fire on a grounded opponent from hovering.

I find hovering people just as easy to hit as a person on the ground.

The moment they land is super easy though.

Grounded targets can dodge
Aerial targets can't
When players touch the ground they can't dodge and can't move properly for like half a second

Easy peasy.

Edited by D20Face, November 25 2012 - 04:53 PM.

[BlackCephie]

Well I mean, if you are dodging their secondary, and have ur heat charged, its a simple matter of using quick jump boost then firing, and landing before their secondary is off cooldown. No one said you had to stay in the air like an asshat. I just find its easier to hit targets with the aoe, as its harder for them to break line of sight.

[Silk_Sk]

Hovering to avoid damage is a legitimate strategy against the HEAT cannon. Unless you're near a wall or something, they need to score a direct hit to do damage while you have an easier target. Believe it or not, an airborne target isn't as easy to hit as you think since there is vertical as well as horizontal movement to compensate for. This is even true for Class C mechs. Sure they'll hit you two, maybe three times, but that won't be enough to take you down and if they miss, they won't do damage. The only splash damage you'll take is from a manually detonated GL round. All in all, it increases survivability. You just need to be able to do a decent amount of damage before you land.

[Beemann]

Silk_Sk, on November 25 2012 - 07:39 PM, said:

Believe it or not, an airborne target isn't as easy to hit as you think

Actually it is. I hit them all the time

[Silk_Sk]

Beemann, on November 25 2012 - 08:00 PM, said:

Silk_Sk, on November 25 2012 - 07:39 PM, said:

Believe it or not, an airborne target isn't as easy to hit as you think

Actually it is. I hit them all the time

I didn't say impossible. But the penalty for missing is much greater while the airborne opponent has a much easier target.

[ArnieF4440]

Dunno how I missed this thread. Love the Heat + GL Combo on the Infiltrator

Check my Tips and Tricks thread, it has some stuff about it. Was doing some testing last night and I got some stats/things about it:

ArnieF4440, on November 25 2012 - 07:25 PM, said:

Heat Cannon:
a Uncharged shot point blank against a wall does no damage to yourself, but a fully charged shot does.
Approx amount of damage for a charged heat cannon = 125

Yellow = Unknown as of CBE3

Spoiler

[Beemann]

Silk_Sk, on November 25 2012 - 08:42 PM, said:

I didn't say impossible. But the penalty for missing is much greater while the airborne opponent has a much easier target.

Which might be a problem if it wasn't much easier to hit hovering targets
And while I can juke around and avoid damage, they're just uselessly hovering there, being a damage sponge

Edited by Beemann, November 25 2012 - 08:54 PM.

[Necro]

^ question Beemann and AJK

I read this in the scout thread and I was wondering why you haven't brought it up here as the infiltrators have a much easier at doing this because the scout needs to get close but the infiltrator can stay at least mid range.

AsianJoyKiller, on November 25 2012 - 03:44 PM, said:

The Flak is fine. Just doesn't belong on an A-class.
The mobility of an A-class makes it very easy to get in close and use the Flak to great effect while minimizing the time you are exposed.

Beemann, on November 25 2012 - 04:59 PM, said:

BlackCephie, on November 25 2012 - 04:28 PM, said:

Lol isn't that the point_

It makes it piss easy to do considerable amounts of damage, and it at least partially negates the importance of the range limit

[Beemann]

The heat isn't hitscan. It's FAR easier to dodge

As well, the weapon is actually BALANCED for midrange fights. A well-used flak will trump a HEAT in CQC, and the objectives aren't exactly midrange-fight-viable on most maps


That said, I don't see it emerging from this beta test unscathed. I wouldn't mind seeing an "a class version" the same way that the Vulcan was limited to one B and a few C classes and the A's had to make do with the SMC, now that everything else is being nerfed senselessly (unless it's new and spams a lot )

[Necro]

Not to deny your point but the flaks aren't hitscan either

But yeah you have a valid point when it's against other scouts not larger targets like Bs and Cs.

The reason i'm bringing all of this up is I feel in my time playing The scout and infiltrator 1v1 are pretty even depending on the surroundings and who gets the 1st shot off.

But other classes don't feel as strong, they either needs buffs or we might need nerfs.

[Beemann]

Necro, on November 25 2012 - 10:13 PM, said:

Not to deny your point but the flaks aren't hitscan either

But yeah you have a valid point when it's against other scouts not larger targets like Bs and Cs.

The reason i'm bringing all of this up is I feel in my time playing The scout and infiltrator 1v1 are pretty even depending on the surroundings and who gets the 1st shot off.

But other classes don't feel as strong, they either needs buffs or we might need nerfs.

1. Can I see proof of that_

2. The mini flak is better against larger and slower targets

3. Honestly I find that it's much easier to deal with a surprise Infiltrator. At least they have to charge their heat to do 100+ damage, and the GL has the lower damage of the two A class secondary weapons. That 160 DPS is pretty brutal, particularly if they catch you while dodge is on cooldown

4. TBH I think Sharpshooter needs to go back to its old self, the Vulcan was fine the way it was before when it was restricted (and when it was a heat-hogging beast), and weapons like the AR and SMG need to be looked at in terms of viability
If having those weapons at that level hurts the game's pacing, then the health or damage across the board needs to be tweaked. Ultimately though, I feel that those weapons should be as fun and interesting to use as weapons like the Heat and GL

[Necro]

Beemann, on November 25 2012 - 10:33 PM, said:

Necro, on November 25 2012 - 10:13 PM, said:

Not to deny your point but the flaks aren't hitscan either

But yeah you have a valid point when it's against other scouts not larger targets like Bs and Cs.

The reason i'm bringing all of this up is I feel in my time playing The scout and infiltrator 1v1 are pretty even depending on the surroundings and who gets the 1st shot off.

But other classes don't feel as strong, they either needs buffs or we might need nerfs.

1. Can I see proof of that_

2. The mini flak is better against larger and slower targets

3. Honestly I find that it's much easier to deal with a surprise Infiltrator. At least they have to charge their heat to do 100+ damage, and the GL has the lower damage of the two A class secondary weapons. That 160 DPS is pretty brutal, particularly if they catch you while dodge is on cooldown

4. TBH I think Sharpshooter needs to go back to its old self, the Vulcan was fine the way it was before when it was restricted (and when it was a heat-hogging beast), and weapons like the AR and SMG need to be looked at in terms of viability
If having those weapons at that level hurts the game's pacing, then the health or damage across the board needs to be tweaked. Ultimately though, I feel that those weapons should be as fun and interesting to use as weapons like the Heat and GL

1. No, can I see proof of yours! I don't think it is but i could make something asking.

2. I'm talking about the HEAT being able to hit larger slower targets_ are you suggestion the Flak/miniflak are balanced for mid range combat_

4. Weapons did feel like they were in an ok place in cb2 (the vulcan a little op but not toooo much, just needed more heat or less damage)
I don't know why they nerfed SS as much as they did but i'm guessing they just wanted to be safe.
Health i feel may be changed but what i really feel the problem might be is survivability. changing health helps that but there are other ways too.
(speed & damage reduction for instance)

[Beemann]

Necro, on November 25 2012 - 10:47 PM, said:

1. No, can I see proof of yours! I don't think it is but i could make something asking.

2. I'm talking about the HEAT being able to hit larger slower targets_ are you suggestion the Flak/miniflak are balanced for mid range combat_

4. Weapons did feel like they were in an ok place in cb2 (the vulcan a little op but not toooo much, just needed more heat or less damage)
I don't know why they nerfed SS as much as they did but i'm guessing they just wanted to be safe.
Health i feel may be changed but what i really feel the problem might be is survivability. changing health helps that but there are other ways too.
(speed & damage reduction for instance)

I havent had to ever lead with it (ping issues aside) and every other bullet-based weapon in the game at least started off being hitscan

Both can hit larger slower targets. You didn't specify range so I assumed you were making some weird assumption about HEAT CQC viability
For clarification, I said that the HEAT is a weapon that fires slower where optimal damage is concerned, and so your new friend will have to choose between a DPS inferior to the mini flak, or waiting another second for a large burst of damage. In that time, a mini-flak user will have done another 160 damage

I mentioned damage. I think the speed is pretty close to where it needs to be

[DarkPulse]

Flak is hitscan.

[Urvanis]

Silk_Sk, on November 25 2012 - 08:42 PM, said:

Beemann, on November 25 2012 - 08:00 PM, said:

Silk_Sk, on November 25 2012 - 07:39 PM, said:

Believe it or not, an airborne target isn't as easy to hit as you think

Actually it is. I hit them all the time

I didn't say impossible. But the penalty for missing is much greater while the airborne opponent has a much easier target.

For a skilled player, Hitting hovering mid air targets with the heat cannon is easier than hitting ground targets. Yes there is more consequence for missing, but most of that consequence is still there on the ground. You also forget that mid air secondary shots are pretty much 100% for even an average player. sudden dodges are the only thing that keep good infiltrators from droping everyone under the sun in no more than 5 seconds. there are no sudden dodges hovering helplessly through the air.

[Silk_Sk]

Beemann, on November 25 2012 - 08:54 PM, said:

Silk_Sk, on November 25 2012 - 08:42 PM, said:

I didn't say impossible. But the penalty for missing is much greater while the airborne opponent has a much easier target.

Which might be a problem if it wasn't much easier to hit hovering targets
And while I can juke around and avoid damage, they're just uselessly hovering there, being a damage sponge

Not so long ago I would have agreed with you. But, I've been using infiltrator since Alpha 2 and I've found that mechs that hover vs. my HEAT/GL generally survive longer than those that don't and I'm trying to suss out the reason. There are several factors involved I think. One is that if timed right, a jump can be considered an upwards dodge. If I'm not expecting it, sometimes they will jump over my shot. Another is that I am obviously in motion with the reticle always bouncing up and down. This is a natural thing to compensate for on the ground since at midrange the motion isn't drastic enough to move it over or under the enemy mech. You just need to keep it horizonally level to get a hit. But when they are in the air, finding that middle point again on the vertical plain isn't so easy. Sure they can't dodge, but the motion of your mech is a bigger problem than it would be otherwise. Add to that the fact that they are still somewhat in motion but don't have the bouncing reticle to worry about, and hovering may present more advantages against the HEAT than initially supposed. I am actually more afraid of a hovering Rocketteer than one on the ground. They are much harder to hide from and they don't have to worry about missing while still having a lot of health to burn.

However, I would never recommend this as a general strategy vs. infiltrators. The situation this would be most effective in is one of either completely open ground (which a good infil will avoid fighting in anyway) or an area with low obstacles that it is possible to see over by hovering. Anything else and you risk taking AOE damage from shots hitting nearby walls. A confident player with good situational awareness may use this strategy very effectively since it has the potential to throw a wrench into the infil's peek-a-boo tactics.

Skilled players can still score many direct hits of course but I've been in this situation too many times not to consider it a valid tactic if used properly.

Edited by Silk_Sk, November 26 2012 - 08:19 AM.

[3Jane]

Yes the weapon is still too strong in the hands of A class.. as is the Scout in general. Same as last beta.