65 replies to this topic

[Karaipantsu]

I've been reading a lot of threads on Seige lately, and a lot of them say the same thing: no strategy.  I've posted some disparate ideas in a few threads, and when I brought them all together, they seemed like a good combination of ideas to refresh and enliven the game mode, so I'll post 'em all in one thread and see what people think.

PREPARE FOR WALL OF TEXT!

Energy Trees

The energy gathering phase is currently a little broken.  Both teams pick a tree, and just sit there, gathering energy.  There's no real competition during this phase, as both teams are pretty content to just gather and launch.  Whomever is quicker on the draw gets their BS out first, but usually both get launched.

I propose putting limits on the trees, and probably adding in additional trees.  I don't think there should be any more than 900 available energy on the map at any given time.  As players drain trees, they would regenerate their power, obviously, at a rate of say 15-30 energy a second.  Maybe when they're fully drained, they shut off and recharge for, say, 1 minute before repowering at 300 energy.

Since it still takes 600 energy to launch a BS, at the outset, there's only enough power available to launch one BS.  This will obviously create competition to see which team can control 2 trees AND return enough power to launch their BS before their enemies destroy them and steal their energy.  No more sitting at a tree and sucking juice till a Battleship appears.

Battleship(s) Launched

This phase is even more broken.  The trees shut off, cutting off the team who is behind from launching their ship.  Whomever controls the AA tower, wins.  There is no other option.  This can lead to some serious roflstompings, and that's no fun.  Also, the Battleship doesn't really seem like a Battleship.  It's more of a suicide bomber, and that's just silly.  It doesn't even engage other battleships.

This idea changes the way the base is portrayed.  Currently, the base has 2 HP, and then it dies after two battleships run into it like a bull in a china shop.  I propose creating a base with a pool of HP, say 10k, and now the Battleships roll into range and begin firing on the base as a primary target, chipping away at, say, 200 DPS.  While this is happening, the trees are still active, and the AA base still serves it's current function.  This allows the opposing team to still launch their BS and have the opportunity to strike back.  In this new system, the battleship's order of Target Importance would be: Enemy Battleship > Enemy Base > Enemy mechs.  Basically, it would only engage enemy mechs when it is out of range of the enemy base.  This would prevent it from rolling people as they spawn.

The battleship itself would recieve a new ability: some kind of super weapon.  While the BS is engaging the base, its team can continue to gather energy to supply power to its super weapon.  Say it takes 600 energy to fire it again, and it takes 5000 HP off the enemy base.  Essentially, that means the "overall" health of the base is still the same: 2 shots from the super weapon.

However, this superweapon could also be used against enemy battleships, which have 5000 HP (for convenience).  This gives the opposing team a choice: attempt to take the AA tower and let it destroy the attacking BS, or gather energy and launch their OWN BS and power its superweapon to nuke the attacking BS.  This also makes the attacking team choose between holding the AA tower and defending the energy trees to prevent the enemy from launching a BS.

Post Battleship

After the first engagement ends with both BS being downed, now the trees are out of sync for charging, one enemy base has taken a bunch of damage, and the cycle begins anew.

Overall, I think this adds a LOT of strategic depth to the mode, and opens up competition on the map for resources, and closes up the biggest flaw: controlling the AA tower means winning the game.  It obviously needs work, and some proper number crunching, but it's certainly something I'd love to see implemented.

[Karaipantsu]

EXAMPLE SITUATION:

Prosk immediately comes out gunning, securing 2 trees and harrassing Sentium at the 3rd.  They get their BS out quick, but Sentium, seeing their losses mounting, secures the AA tower in preparation for the BS launch.  When Prosk's BS comes out, there's 100 Energy remaning on the map, and Sentium needs 200 to launch their BS.  4 of 5 Sentium hold the AA tower, while the 5th gathers energy.  The Tower eventually falls, but not before it deals heavy damage to the Prosk BS, leaving it with 400 HP remaining.  Prosk now holds the AA tower, but Sentium has gathered enough Energy to launch their BS.

The two BS engage each other, with the Sentium BS eventually destroying the Prosk while taking heavy AA fire.  Most of Prosk abandons the AA tower in an effort to gather energy to get their BS back up and running, allowing Sentium to get it back and their BS survives with 100 HP remaining while the Sentium team begins to compete for energy.  Competition for the drained energy trees is fierce, and while the battle rages, the Sentium BS begins firing on the Prosk base.  Eventually, both Sentium and Prosk manage to gather another 600 energy, and Sentium uses their BS's superweaon on the Prosk base, reducing it to 3000 HP.  Shortly thereafter, Prosk relaunches their BS, it destroys the Sentium BS, and moves towards the Sentium base, and the battle continues to rage.

[AsianJoyKiller]

Siege is broken.
There are several of us who will prove just how broken it is, and also why it's not viable as an esport gametype.

[fussgeist]

certainly would add some variety to the game play.  Changing the manner that the trees functioned from CB2->3 killed most of the strategy.
I'd like to see the map made larger with adding multiple trees.  Maybe even go the route of 6, 2 in the "zone" of each base, and 2 in no-man's land to force more competition.  Might change the gameplay too much to Missile Assault of the primary strategy being to hold a point instead of work as a team on gather/launch/hold-take AA.

[Ace4225]

+1

not sure if BS superweapons would be all that great of an idea, but I really like everything else mentioned here. [I think I'd just have to see BS super-weapons in action before I judge that]

I'd also like to throw in that I think base defenses should be improved [to more successfully prevent spawn-camping] and possibly have its own built-in, much-less powerful AA to be able to attack the battleship when it's at the end of its trip and has engaged the base. Perhaps a base-mounted AA should be powered up with a small amount of EU_

Edited by Ace4225, November 27 2012 - 10:41 AM.

[LunaticCalm]

Good ideas. Need more like this if siege is ever going to be a competitive or spectator-friendly game mode. Currently it's simply boring, primarily because there are no decisions to be made since the game locks you out of all but 1 option at any given moment.

[Karaipantsu]

Exactly.  I'd love to see the options open up a lot more, and get away from the "all or nothing" setup currently.

[JonnyO2]

Good ideas. I'm definitely in favor of a return to limited energy and I like the idea of having a reason to supply the battleship with energy. I'm not sure about adding more trees though, that would encourage teams to split up too much.

[Karaipantsu]

Well, currently, there's no real competition in the field during the charge phase.  Teams usually pick a tree and don't bother going to the other one.  Adding in additional trees and reduced energy availability would make players compete for those necessary resources.

[Karaipantsu]

Reading this thread: http://community.pla...etitive-hawken/, it seems there's another even more broken tactic: just shoot down the BS at your base.  I've always tried this with my bruiser and failed, but it seems a few scouts can rock that beast without much issue (which doesn't surprised me at all, honestly.)

To fix this nonsense, I'd say have the BS put up a shield when it reaches the enemy base, reducing incoming fire from mechs on the ground by 75%, or something, but no reduction from an enemy battleship.  This would still leave the option of shooting it down, but it would take much longer once it's within firing range.  While it's traveling, it'd still vulnerable to full damage from the ground, but because the enemy team is out there to help prevent that, the chances of a successful downing are decreased.

Additionally, when destroyed, the BS should drop energy inversely proportional to it's progress.  If downed at the launch point, it'd drop 600.  If downed at the Enemy Base, it'd drop, say, 100.

Edited by Karaipantsu, November 28 2012 - 07:12 AM.

[HellRik]

THats what I posted in a bad topic. Transfering it here seems the right thing to do.
I may restate some of the OP's ideas but mine aren't base on them.

HC seige mode to be played with 20mechs (10 vs 10)..or more

I don't like the fact that everyone stops to turn the EU to base to go protect the AA platform once the enemy ship is in the air. As if a base has no other ways of defending itself. With the huge amounts of energy we drop wouldnt it be a good idea to implement a defensive tactic like a base shield_

Changes to be made:
*-1st two droppods would fill the battleship, the 2 others in the back would fill a defensive base mecanism. You would need to fill up the sheild then a smaller AA version. % of shield would drop the DPS power of the seige ship.

*- drop the main AA destructive power.

*- make the battleships go back to their base to repair instead of ramming mindlessly into enemy base. Too many kamikazes in this realm imo. If the attemp to damage the enemy base is going to be unsuccessfull you could call it back to homebase from your homebase ( trigger callback from base )

*-Keep the Battleship turrets up firing only to defend itself and the friendly mechs underneath. No need to cover the entire map. Lower their DPS a bit.

*-Upgrade the quantities needed to launch/repair the ship ( all extra EU unused to launch a ship goes into defensive mecanism )

*-Teams holds 1 healthbar (25% more HP) on the seige ship and 1 healthbar (25% more HP) on the base, if the BS is destroyed, the main AA turns towards the enemy base ( DPS slower then the MA mode ).

*-Teambase needs a smaller AA platform (inside) that could (under special conditions) launch a EMP on the enemy BS

All I am asking is more options into ''WHAT TO DO'' in siege mode.
-Dropping EU to base to either build the defenses or to launch the BS
-Stop enemy from collecting EU by doing ambushes on their way back to their base.
-Holding all the EU stations to activate the main AA weapon system.
-Holding the AA platform to trigger the firing mecanism.

Its an incomplete idea that needs to be worked on, but I am sure the game can handle thoses changes w/o rebuilding the game from scratch.

Call me crazy, I am wearing my anti-critisism jacket with a special coating to resist AJK walls of text

Edited by HellRik, November 28 2012 - 07:14 AM.

[Karaipantsu]

I like the idea of base defences.  I was thinking something along the same lines, but couldn't really flesh out any ideas before I posted this.  I always thought having 4 drop points capable of sucking up a (current) total of 1000 energy was excessive.  However, the idea of having the AA tower fire on the base just brings back the idea that the AA tower is the focus of the map.  If you could hold the AA tower for the entire game, you could stave off their BS and nuke their base (eventually).

Also, being capable of triggering a call back from the base would almost inevitably lead to mass trolling in non-competitive play.  That's just too easy to abuse for lulz.

[HellRik]

Karaipantsu, on November 28 2012 - 07:20 AM, said:

I like the idea of base defences.  I was thinking something along the same lines, but couldn't really flesh out any ideas before I posted this.  I always thought having 4 drop points capable of sucking up a (current) total of 1000 energy was excessive.  However, the idea of having the AA tower fire on the base just brings back the idea that the AA tower is the focus of the map.  If you could hold the AA tower for the entire game, you could stave off their BS and nuke their base (eventually).

Also, being capable of triggering a call back from the base would almost inevitably lead to mass trolling in non-competitive play.  That's just too easy to abuse for lulz.

You mean team self-trolling_ Call back idea was to repair the ''only BS'' As for AA firing on base. its has to go pass the sheild, then the BS, then the Base hp. Since I suggested that the main AA' DPS to be dropped, if no ones gather EU to raise shields up or simply camping spawn doing nothing , yeah thats might endup quicly. They also need to hold one ( or more ) EU trees to enable the AA., and to hold the platform to trigger the firing mecanism.

Also, keeping the BS turrets ripping mech apart on their way to base to drop EU gets all its meaning.

Edited by HellRik, November 28 2012 - 07:38 AM.

[Karaipantsu]

My point was that there will inevitably be some douchplug who will just constantly call the BS back to aggravate his team.  This is the internet.  it will happen.

Also, the AA firing on the base with a shield means the shield must be maintained, and they're using energy for that instead of launching a BS.  Meanwhile, the enemy controls the AA, is depriving the opposing base of energy, and gathering energy to launch their own BS while holding the only means to effectively destroy it.  That just seems like a recipe for a rolling to me.

[HellRik]

Karaipantsu, on November 28 2012 - 07:48 AM, said:

My point was that there will inevitably be some douchplug who will just constantly call the BS back to aggravate his team.  This is the internet.  it will happen.

Also, the AA firing on the base with a shield means the shield must be maintained, and they're using energy for that instead of launching a BS.  Meanwhile, the enemy controls the AA, is depriving the opposing base of energy, and gathering energy to launch their own BS while holding the only means to effectively destroy it.  That just seems like a recipe for a rolling to me.

Well if you keep in mind that once the objectives are set, team are scaterred everywhere. Its hard to do everything said above w/o shrinking their own ranks.
As for  the Ship call back, i donno, you bring up a valid point, but I am relying on the general intelligence of player population. To remove that possibility, if ships goes under 50% health, you get a choice displayed in your Mech UI ( vote style ). Makes the choice base on majority.



Was more of an idea to get the noobs to do something really usefull like trips to keep the energy up instead of diving into battle doing nothing much then giving points and xp to enemy. How many times did you carry EU and died with it_ Doing that makes every EU units beeing used in either BS launch or Sheild. Giving less to the enemy while dying.
Thats why I stated it was more like a brainstorm then a final solution.

Edited by HellRik, November 28 2012 - 08:08 AM.

[Karaipantsu]

HellRik, on November 28 2012 - 08:04 AM, said:

but I am relying on the general intelligence of player population.

There's your problem.  

The under 50% HP thing could be worth examining, though.  I just don't know if it's worth calling the ship back to watch it trundle across the landscape when relaunching it after it's destroyed is pretty easy.

[HellRik]

Karaipantsu, on November 28 2012 - 08:13 AM, said:

HellRik, on November 28 2012 - 08:04 AM, said:

but I am relying on the general intelligence of player population.

There's your problem.  

The under 50% HP thing could be worth examining, though.  I just don't know if it's worth calling the ship back to watch it trundle across the landscape when relaunching it after it's destroyed is pretty easy.

There is no point into launching it if no one really cares on what is going on in the map. What purpose serves launching ( even gathering EU ) the BS if the AA Platform is taken by enemy and going to be destroyed anyway_ So in a game you ''could'' launch 10 BS w/o having to pay the consequences_ With the current settings anyway '' Team BS is sustaining heavy damage'' is of no use because from that point its already dead!

Edited by HellRik, November 28 2012 - 09:18 AM.

[DarkPulse]

Well, I don't know if it would ever replace Siege, but I have something that'd make the CTF mode way more interesting...



That game mode is unknown as hell. And awesome as hell.

[Beemann]

HellRik, on November 28 2012 - 07:06 AM, said:

THats what I posted in a bad topic. Transfering it here seems the right thing to do.
I may restate some of the OP's ideas but mine aren't base on them.

HC seige mode to be played with 20mechs (10 vs 10)..or more

I don't like the fact that everyone stops to turn the EU to base to go protect the AA platform once the enemy ship is in the air. As if a base has no other ways of defending itself. With the huge amounts of energy we drop wouldnt it be a good idea to implement a defensive tactic like a base shield_

Changes to be made:
*-1st two droppods would fill the battleship, the 2 others in the back would fill a defensive base mecanism. You would need to fill up the sheild then a smaller AA version. % of shield would drop the DPS power of the seige ship.

*- drop the main AA destructive power.

*- make the battleships go back to their base to repair instead of ramming mindlessly into enemy base. Too many kamikazes in this realm imo. If the attemp to damage the enemy base is going to be unsuccessfull you could call it back to homebase from your homebase ( trigger callback from base )

*-Keep the Battleship turrets up firing only to defend itself and the friendly mechs underneath. No need to cover the entire map. Lower their DPS a bit.

*-Upgrade the quantities needed to launch/repair the ship ( all extra EU unused to launch a ship goes into defensive mecanism )

*-Teams holds 1 healthbar (25% more HP) on the seige ship and 1 healthbar (25% more HP) on the base, if the BS is destroyed, the main AA turns towards the enemy base ( DPS slower then the MA mode ).

*-Teambase needs a smaller AA platform (inside) that could (under special conditions) launch a EMP on the enemy BS

All I am asking is more options into ''WHAT TO DO'' in siege mode.
-Dropping EU to base to either build the defenses or to launch the BS
-Stop enemy from collecting EU by doing ambushes on their way back to their base.
-Holding all the EU stations to activate the main AA weapon system.
-Holding the AA platform to trigger the firing mecanism.

Its an incomplete idea that needs to be worked on, but I am sure the game can handle thoses changes w/o rebuilding the game from scratch.

Call me crazy, I am wearing my anti-critisism jacket with a special coating to resist AJK walls of text

This doesn't solve any of the comp issues with Siege... which are pretty much the main problems with Siege. If anything this would make it LESS esport friendly (too many players, kinda convoluted, ignores the fact that the AA is already not very useful, more opportunities to avoid any sort of confrontation, EMP plat makes it easier to pull off the passive ship-leveling strat)

If we're keeping it as a pub gamemode, only minor tweaks are needed. If you want to imagine Siege as an ESport gamemode, think of it like this:
Every player on both teams is lazy and wants to take the least amount of risk available. How do you keep the game interesting while they play_

[HellRik]

Lazy and Esport don't belong in the same sentence imo.
Sorry , I didnt know that fun was a synonym of easy.

Imo , I see 3 type of players in general:
-Competitive players that takes every single hard stuff as a way to get better and have fun taking everything as a challenge ( ME )
-Casual players looking for easy fun and fast matches. Most of them will play a zombie mode before anything else.
-The others, not so sure why they are playing a game ( maybe because it said free )and still looking what they should do while the game is almost over.

My vision ( may be asking too much ) is the revamp siege mode (more complexe and thrilling) includes all thoses players. If you dont see it that way I can't blame you. I still stand on it. Again, its an imcomplete brainstorm vision of someone playing Hawken for 7 days. In feedback, you need not only the old timers, but also the voice of thoses who just joined. ( Like me )

Enough of thoses easy do this, go there, defend this or you lose.

Edited by HellRik, November 28 2012 - 10:19 AM.