16 replies to this topic

[Maoman]

This isn't so much a bug as it is a possible error. In the optimization screen, for example, with the "increase weapon damage" upgrade, it says each upgrade point gives +0.16% to all damage.

Now, maybe that was intentional, but it seems to me like what you're trying to say is a 16% bonus, not 0.16%, which is about one sixth of 1%.

If it IS intentionally, and you really are only giving 1/6th of a percent each upgrade... well then that's just an absurdly small bonus. You really should increase how much each upgrade point gives you, or there's just no point to them.

If it is not intentional and you're actually giving a 16% bonus, then please remove the zero and decimal from all percentages so that it accurately displays the bonus.

[Maoman]

Also relevant: In the "increase primary weapon fire rate" upgrade, can you make it clear whether or not that helps with the heat buildup_

For example: With all three points, your weapon is firing twice as fast as standard. Is it also generating twice as much heat and overheating in half the time, or does the heating get upgraded as well, so you can still fire for as long as you were before upgrading_

I have no preference as to which of these is true, I only ask that the optimization screen explains which is true right there in-game.

[DarkPulse]

No way in heck would they be giving a 16% bonus. It wasn't even that high in CB2. They do mean 0.16%, so three of them = 0.48% increase. At 16%, you'd be talking nearly 48% more damage and it'd be an obvious - and overkill - upgrade. (We'd be talking enough to two-shot any A-Class with a Flak Cannon, assuming all pellets hit.)

Fire rate boosters don't affect heat. Since it's firing faster, it will build heat quicker.

[Maoman]

DarkPulse, on December 06 2012 - 12:46 AM, said:

They do mean 0.16%, so three of them = 0.48% increase.

Well, I've already stated my opinion then: That bonus is absolutely absurd. I mean, seriously, three points of upgrading, and you get less than half of one percent_ I realize that 48% is similarly absurd - it'd be overkill, but if you take the Hellfire Missles, the weapon which does the most damage in a single shot (assuming, of course, every missle hits), according to the weapon chart from http://community.pla...-tricks-thread/ , with 0.48% increase in damage, you would be doing ONE point more damage than if you had not upgraded. Out of a massive 216 points of damage, it would be upgraded to 217.

Then, looking at fire rate upgrades, all three points will give you 0.99% bonus, which i'll just round up to 1%. In that weapon chart, it says the mini flak cannon's fire rate is "2.50," which I assume is how many times it fires each second. This means the mini flak cannon fires every 0.4 seconds. With the fire rate fully upgraded, it will fire once every 0.396 seconds, or 2.525 times a second.

This means that if you had two mini flak cannons next to each other, one not upgraded and one upgraded, disabled heat generation, and started firing them both at the same time, where the non-upgraded one would fire 40 times, the upgraded would fire a very underwhelming 41 times in the same amount of time.

C'mon, man, I can't be the only one who thinks those statistics are just ridiculous. Those aren't even bonuses at all, they're a waste of optimization points.

Edited by Maoman, December 06 2012 - 07:56 AM.

[Maoman]

DarkPulse, on December 06 2012 - 12:46 AM, said:

Fire rate boosters don't affect heat. Since it's firing faster, it will build heat quicker.

I assumed that was the case, and like I said, I don't really care which - I just wish the in-game optimization menu explained the upgrades a bit more thoroughly.

[DarkPulse]

Maoman, on December 06 2012 - 07:53 AM, said:

Well, I've already stated my opinion then: That bonus is absolutely absurd. I mean, seriously, three points of upgrading, and you get less than half of one percent_ I realize that 48% is similarly absurd - it'd be overkill, but if you take the Hellfire Missles, the weapon which does the most damage in a single shot (assuming, of course, every missle hits), according to the weapon chart from http://community.pla...-tricks-thread/ , with 0.48% increase in damage, you would be doing ONE point more damage than if you had not upgraded. Out of a massive 216 points of damage, it would be upgraded to 217.

Then, looking at fire rate upgrades, all three points will give you 0.99% bonus, which i'll just round up to 1%. In that weapon chart, it says the mini flak cannon's fire rate is "2.50," which I assume is how many times it fires each second. This means the mini flak cannon fires every 0.4 seconds. With the fire rate fully upgraded, it will fire once every 0.396 seconds, or 2.525 times a second.

This means that if you had two mini flak cannons next to each other, one not upgraded and one upgraded, disabled heat generation, and started firing them both at the same time, where the non-upgraded one would fire 40 times, the upgraded would fire a very underwhelming 41 times in the same amount of time.

C'mon, man, I can't be the only one who thinks those statistics are just ridiculous. Those aren't even bonuses at all, they're a waste of optimization points.

It should be noted that what you're seeing here is basically vestigial remnants of the old tech tree system. It's being totally reworked, because as it was, the old system was giving L20s considerably more power than L0 (It was possible, with the right optimizations, for a C-Class to have something like 1050-1100 armor, for example).

The devs are working more towards optimizations that give you boosts but also come with drawbacks, similar to how parts now work. (Like optimizations, they used to be straight-up bonuses as well.)

Edited by DarkPulse, December 06 2012 - 08:28 AM.

[Fantus_Longhorn]

This just illustrates the point that skill trumps Mech level. The optimization system in CB3 is strange and the Devs have already said that they're looking to change how the system works and what kind of changes it makes.

[SunshineSloth]

Don't panic. It's mostly just a place holder. They've been focusing on different aspects each beta.

[Maoman]

Well, if they're already working on revamping the system, then just ignore everything I said, :/ lol

And Fantus, skill does not always trump mech level. I'm pretty good at scout, but i'm only level 3 - the last map I played on my ass was consistently handed to me by a level 20 scout who clearly had significantly more damage and armor than I had.

[DarkPulse]

Maoman, on December 06 2012 - 08:56 AM, said:

Well, if they're already working on revamping the system, then just ignore everything I said, :/ lol

And Fantus, skill does not always trump mech level. I'm pretty good at scout, but i'm only level 3 - the last map I played on my ass was consistently handed to me by a level 20 scout who clearly had significantly more damage and armor than I had.

Except he didn't. I know that in terms of the Defense tree, maxing out the armor there gives a whopping 18 extra armor, and I'm pretty sure on the movement tree it won't push it up more than another 10 or so.

The optimizations are, in their current state, virtually a non-factor.

[zkorinis]

I agree I notice that against higher level opponents sometimes blasting them in the face with flak does little or no damage its crazy to think that a full on hit doesn't even scratch and i'm melted in like two secs. and I have like 1000+ armour

[DarkPulse]

zkorinis, on December 06 2012 - 01:17 PM, said:

I agree I notice that against higher level opponents sometimes blasting them in the face with flak does little or no damage its crazy to think that a full on hit doesn't even scratch and i'm melted in like two secs. and I have like 1000+ armour

A full-on Flak shot that has all 12 flechettes hit does about 150 damage. This means it'll take, at a minimum, four to down an A-Class, five to down a B-Class, and six to down a C-Class.

Armor can be higher, but not too much higher; again, the armor optimizations were made fairly worthless compared to how they were. In the case of a C-Class, the one in the defense tree gave them an extra 27.5 Armor, which would affect essentially nothing. 6 x 150 = 900, which would still put them down even with the boost.

So if it's not doing much damage, you're either missing them or else shooting them from way too far away to make most of the flechettes hit.

Also, odds are we're going to see a rather different tech tree in Open Beta anyway.

Edited by DarkPulse, December 07 2012 - 03:29 AM.

[QuanZen]

DarkPulse, on December 07 2012 - 03:27 AM, said:

zkorinis, on December 06 2012 - 01:17 PM, said:

I agree I notice that against higher level opponents sometimes blasting them in the face with flak does little or no damage its crazy to think that a full on hit doesn't even scratch and i'm melted in like two secs. and I have like 1000+ armour

A full-on Flak shot that has all 12 flechettes hit does about 150 damage. This means it'll take, at a minimum, four to down an A-Class, five to down a B-Class, and six to down a C-Class.

Armor can be higher, but not too much higher; again, the armor optimizations were made fairly worthless compared to how they were. In the case of a C-Class, the one in the defense tree gave them an extra 27.5 Armor, which would affect essentially nothing. 6 x 150 = 900, which would still put them down even with the boost.

So if it's not doing much damage, you're either missing them or else shooting them from way too far away to make most of the flechettes hit.

Also, odds are we're going to see a rather different tech tree in Open Beta anyway.

I sure hope they do something about the Optimization tree...because in it's current state it has very little effect to your Mechs actual performance. In the previous testing phases you could actually notice a gradual increase in your Mechs performance. Personally I think each Class of Mechs should have totally different skill trees.

[Noin]

QuanZen, on December 07 2012 - 08:49 AM, said:

DarkPulse, on December 07 2012 - 03:27 AM, said:

zkorinis, on December 06 2012 - 01:17 PM, said:

I agree I notice that against higher level opponents sometimes blasting them in the face with flak does little or no damage its crazy to think that a full on hit doesn't even scratch and i'm melted in like two secs. and I have like 1000+ armour

A full-on Flak shot that has all 12 flechettes hit does about 150 damage. This means it'll take, at a minimum, four to down an A-Class, five to down a B-Class, and six to down a C-Class.

Armor can be higher, but not too much higher; again, the armor optimizations were made fairly worthless compared to how they were. In the case of a C-Class, the one in the defense tree gave them an extra 27.5 Armor, which would affect essentially nothing. 6 x 150 = 900, which would still put them down even with the boost.

So if it's not doing much damage, you're either missing them or else shooting them from way too far away to make most of the flechettes hit.

Also, odds are we're going to see a rather different tech tree in Open Beta anyway.

I sure hope they do something about the Optimization tree...because in it's current state it has very little effect to your Mechs actual performance. In the previous testing phases you could actually notice a gradual increase in your Mechs performance. Personally I think each Class of Mechs should have totally different skill trees.

I think the movement tree still had some punch in cbe3.  But overall it is underwhelming currently.  

That said, with a seriously tuned and working matchmaker, the optimization tree could provide for much larger changes in ability and it would in fact make for much more interesting battles in higher ranking players.

If I could sky rocket my movement abilities in my A class and someone could increase the defense on their C class, and we were both lvl 12+, it would make for a very very interesting and fun battle.  However if we find ourselves playing in matches with mechs of greatly vary skill, and mech pilots of greatly varying skill, this all falls apart and it becomes a suck fest for one half and an xp farm for the other half.

The only concern I have is if the optimization tree effectively makes it possible for me to make an A class be un-A class like by upping its defensive abilities to the point that it is an A class with C class toughness.  To me it almost argues for each class of mech having different optimization trees.  I would in fact even lobby for there to be more than 3 categories of optimization, although only 3 would be available in each class.  I like the trade off of needing to 'climb' the tree to get some of the optimizations.  

All in the vain of having more customizability for me to run my mech how I want, which is what I read they are aiming for.  More customizing.

Edited by Noin, December 07 2012 - 09:55 AM.

[Fantus_Longhorn]

As we've already seen, it's such a fine balancing act and a lot of changes and experimentation has already taken place across 5 different test phases (2 Alpha's, 3 beta's) and a lot more is yet to come.
What should happen with the open beta is a more gradual change and, hopefully, the constant play will reveal what the issues are in a more consistent way.
We will be able to give feedback in a more consistent way, too. We won't need to wait weeks for the next bunch of changes to arrive in one big lump without having the opportunity to play in the mean-time, maybe developing counters to weapons which were previously thought OP

I'm genuinely looking forward to watching this game evolve across the coming year(s) and cannot wait to get back in the fight. Cupcake is waiting for me!

[Maoman]

I think another big issue will be in the future, when we have hundreds of long-time players with a dozen level 20 mechs (or whatever the level cap is by then), hundreds of brand new players with absolutely no XP, and all sorts of in-betweens. I think there will need to be "classes," so lvl 20s will only play against other lvl 20s, lvl 0s only against other lvl 0s, and then we could have, say, lvls 1-5, 6-10, 11-15, and 16-19 are all fighting each other in their own classes. "Twinking" will be impossible, since you can't halt the gain of XP, so the ranks will be more-or-less fair, with your own personal skill playing a much larger part in whether or not you win.

In fact, i'm gonna go ahead and open a new thread with this suggestion, so it's more noticeable.

Edited by Maoman, December 08 2012 - 07:06 PM.

[DarkPulse]

Maoman, on December 08 2012 - 07:03 PM, said:

I think another big issue will be in the future, when we have hundreds of long-time players with a dozen level 20 mechs (or whatever the level cap is by then), hundreds of brand new players with absolutely no XP, and all sorts of in-betweens. I think there will need to be "classes," so lvl 20s will only play against other lvl 20s, lvl 0s only against other lvl 0s, and then we could have, say, lvls 1-5, 6-10, 11-15, and 16-19 are all fighting each other in their own classes. "Twinking" will be impossible, since you can't halt the gain of XP, so the ranks will be more-or-less fair, with your own personal skill playing a much larger part in whether or not you win.

In fact, i'm gonna go ahead and open a new thread with this suggestion, so it's more noticeable.

100% pointless. The people who've played that long and that much will have a massive skill and experience advantage, so they'll wallop most folks who don't.

The mastery of the mechs is never a good solution. It should be, if anything, player-based metrics, like Mech Proficiency or XP/Minute.

But even with things like those, I'm against making such measures "mandatory" as it would prevent things like clans and joining with friends if there's massive skill level gaps, so that sort of thing should really only apply to players going through the Matchmaker system.

Edited by DarkPulse, December 09 2012 - 01:58 AM.