35 replies to this topic

[Subdivision]

BlackCephie, on December 09 2012 - 11:40 AM, said:

Lastly, I imagine that the C abilities will shine greatly once the repair torch becomes playable. Having a C in turret mode holding down a position, or laying siege to and enemy position, all while being constantly repaired by another mech behind it has amazing potential, but I still maintain that the Brawler could have a different, unique secondary as a default.

No offence but if you aren't playing the class don't ask for these kinds of changes or make those comments. The c-class abilities have been discussed plenty of times before so I'll sum up the consensus for you; half of us would like them to be changed completely as they are currently the ONLY abilities that have a penalty for their use. The other half don't believe they will see a dramatic change and will simply get buffed in some suitable manner to compensate for the downside of reduced mobility as the team has put a lot of work into the current ability. As for the weapon change why the brawler_ Why not the scout_ Playing devils advocate here a little but as a brawler player I understand you'd like some more diversity. I think it would be great too. I also agree with D20Face the current status quo is fine and if it doesn't change I'll still be more than happy. But I don't think suggestions like that are terribly helpful. The brawlers loadout has never changed. There is plenty that differentiates the scout and  brawler. I don't think I need to spell out the truisms to make this point.

Where has this 'repair torch' come from out of interest_ I haven't read about it anywhere or are you speculating_ Not being picky, I just would like to keep myself up to date

Personally I don't feel that you can get much more from adding more weapons and possibly abilities. What could we add_ What do we need_ What roles aren't there_ Sure the inf. has very specific strength in its ability for surprise and flanking. I feel this can be said for all classes. These were roughly outlined by D20Face so I wont bother elaborating on them much. I'll just add C classes are differentiated by both their primary and secondary weapons as their abilities are essentially identical. I feel the versatility of each class is a good thing. You aren't locking into having one set way to play when you pick one mech. Different players play them differently and this adds to the game's development. Trends will come and go on what is best for each and also allows uniqueness through a player and not just the tools they are using. I've always felt play-style is more a player than the mech they are in.The current range of mechs fits this pretty well in that you can get a mech to suit your preferences no matter how you play. Ignoring the people who want/expect Hawken to play like other FPS's, are we missing anything_

[AsianJoyKiller]

BlackCephie, on December 09 2012 - 11:40 AM, said:

Lastly, I imagine that the C abilities will shine greatly once the repair torch becomes playable. Having a C in turret mode holding down a position, or laying siege to and enemy position, all while being constantly repaired by another mech behind it has amazing potential

You ignore the critical problem.
Why should C-Class mechs be the only ones who need support to make their special ability effective_
The fact that it's toggleable isn't enough. The time it takes to go in and out of turret mode already offsets that.

[D20Face]

Subdivision, on December 11 2012 - 04:55 AM, said:

Where has this 'repair torch' come from out of interest_ I haven't read about it anywhere or are you speculating_ Not being picky, I just would like to keep myself up to date

Was in the files during fight club and there's an interview somewhere that was released in the middle of closed beta talking about it.

AsianJoyKiller, on December 11 2012 - 08:16 AM, said:

BlackCephie, on December 09 2012 - 11:40 AM, said:

Lastly, I imagine that the C abilities will shine greatly once the repair torch becomes playable. Having a C in turret mode holding down a position, or laying siege to and enemy position, all while being constantly repaired by another mech behind it has amazing potential

You ignore the critical problem.
Why should C-Class mechs be the only ones who need support to make their special ability effective_
The fact that it's toggleable isn't enough. The time it takes to go in and out of turret mode already offsets that.

Plenty of mechanics in plenty of games are only useful with support. Some of them, even requiring support, are considered overpowered when they have it.

There's no issue with requiring specific scenarios to be effective, even if those scenarios require other people. A medic is useless without a person to heal right_

I'll agree that the time it takes to transform is too long, but the fact that the ability requires a sacrifice in mobility is fine in my books.

[AsianJoyKiller]

D20Face, on December 11 2012 - 09:00 AM, said:

AsianJoyKiller, on December 11 2012 - 08:16 AM, said:

BlackCephie, on December 09 2012 - 11:40 AM, said:

Lastly, I imagine that the C abilities will shine greatly once the repair torch becomes playable. Having a C in turret mode holding down a position, or laying siege to and enemy position, all while being constantly repaired by another mech behind it has amazing potential

You ignore the critical problem.
Why should C-Class mechs be the only ones who need support to make their special ability effective_
The fact that it's toggleable isn't enough. The time it takes to go in and out of turret mode already offsets that.

Plenty of mechanics in plenty of games are only useful with support. Some of them, even requiring support, are considered overpowered when they have it.

There's no issue with requiring specific scenarios to be effective, even if those scenarios require other people. A medic is useless without a person to heal right_

I'll agree that the time it takes to transform is too long, but the fact that the ability requires a sacrifice in mobility is fine in my books.

Excellent job on ignoring half of the question entirely.

[D20Face]

AsianJoyKiller, on December 11 2012 - 09:24 AM, said:

Excellent job on ignoring half of the question entirely.

I try.

Other classes have rather lackluster abilities in my opinion.

Cloak is only good when the enemy hasn't seen you yet. Refuel is only good for the noncombatant potion of a fight. Damage boost is only good against C class mechs. Damage reduction is only useful if the enemy misses their secondary attacks. Coolant is only useful in engagements against multiple opponents. Turret mode is only good with backup.

Edited by D20Face, December 11 2012 - 09:37 AM.

[AsianJoyKiller]

D20Face, on December 11 2012 - 09:37 AM, said:

AsianJoyKiller, on December 11 2012 - 09:24 AM, said:

Excellent job on ignoring half of the question entirely.

I try.

Other classes have rather lackluster abilities in my opinion.

Cloak is only good when the enemy hasn't seen you yet. Refuel is only good for the noncombatant potion of a fight. Damage boost is only good against C class mechs. Damage reduction is only useful if the enemy misses their secondary attacks. Coolant is only useful in engagements against multiple opponents. Turret mode is only good with backup.

Sure, they may be lackluster in certain situations (or when used right are very helpful), but turret mode is the only ability that puts a player at a disadvantage when you use it.
None of the others do that.
So again, why is turret mode the only ability that requires team support to be effective_

[D20Face]

AsianJoyKiller, on December 11 2012 - 09:47 AM, said:

Sure, they may be lackluster in certain situations (or when used right are very helpful), but turret mode is the only ability that puts a player at a disadvantage when you use it.
None of the others do that.
So again, why is turret mode the only ability that requires team support to be effective_

Because it has almost double the numerical difference over other abilities. It's a 35% damage reduction and some other things as opposed to a 15% damage boost or other comparable changes. Risk/reward.

The other abilities only risk in using non-optimal situations is that they are wasted. Turret mode has additional risk.

Explosive weapons run the risk of damaging you at close range when they aren't used properly. They obviously need removed because the bullet weapons have no such downside.

Edited by D20Face, December 11 2012 - 11:10 AM.

[draco7891]

D20Face, on December 11 2012 - 11:10 AM, said:

Because it has almost double the numerical difference over other abilities. It's a 35% damage reduction and some other things as opposed to a 15% damage boost or other comparable changes. Risk/reward.

But even that difference means nothing when the mode forces you to take every bit of damage that your opponent dispenses (due to the loss of the primary means of damage avoidance, dodging). That difference means nothing when the mode allows your opponent to choose the means and manner of his engagement (due to the reduction in movement speed and turn rate, and loss of boosting). That difference means nothing when the time required to enter the mode completely eliminates the additional time gained through damage reduction (forcing players to clairvoyantly deploy it before engagement, while all other abilities are ad-hoc). That difference means nothing when entering the mode forces you to stop firing for the time required, leaving you at a massive DPS disadvantage.

For the benefit of an ability that doesn't run out and a double-numerical advantage, you must play clairvoyantly, hope that your opponent does not run off, hope that your opponent does not out-maneuver you, and hope that your opponent has astonishingly bad aim and no sense of tactics or strategy.

Draco

[D20Face]

draco7891, on December 11 2012 - 11:53 AM, said:

For the benefit of an ability that doesn't run out and a double-numerical advantage, you must play clairvoyantly, hope that your opponent does not run off, hope that your opponent does not out-maneuver you, and hope that your opponent has astonishingly bad aim and no sense of tactics or strategy.

You seem to be ignoring missile silos.

They're a point that you know the enemy has to come to, allowing you to wait. They have easily predictable areas of approach, allowing you to plan your placement better. You've got all the time in the world to wait for an enemy.

There are other locations that I'd use turret mode in, but I'd rather not list them right now.

[draco7891]

D20Face, on December 11 2012 - 12:20 PM, said:

You seem to be ignoring missile silos.

Once I see you on the point, I run away and focus on the two other points (since it's only necessary to keep 2 points to win). That should be markedly easier now that your team is a man down.

This is assuming, of course, that turreted C-classes are not laughably easy to rout. No dodging means no 180* turn = I run at you, boost-jump over top and play leapfrog, firing into you the whole time. 3 seconds later, the damage you've sustained erases the HP gap, and your choices are:

• Stay turreted and die.
  
• Try to get out of turret mode, and die.

The other place you'd consider turret mode is on the AA defense on Siege, which is arguably the most applicable circumstance. So you have an ability that's effective on 50% of 25% of the game, so you are 12.5% effective.

Meanwhile, everyone else is running around with abilities that are 100% effective in 100% of the game.

Draco

[BLTasty]

As an advocate for the c-class mechs I'm absolutely loving this conversation. Even in the short time playing, I've definitely felt that sense of helplessness when I dropped into turret mode as a brawler. With a short range flack cannon and little to no experience with the tow I basically waited to be killed on multiple occasions.

I doubt the rocketeer and the grenadier have as much trouble with  this issue as the ability to tear opponents apart from a distance accurately or sporadically forces the enemy to maneuver themselves into a range that suits them better 'after' you get your shots off. The brawler doesn't exactly have that option. Its close and in an expected direction or not at all. I do believe c-class mechs are extremely valuable assets in objective games and with time and play they will find their role in no time. In deathmatch I know I will struggle endlessly to fight off the bees flying around my tank with a shotgun, but I enjoy the challenge that c-class brings, so I doubt I'll ever stop playing them just because they're not noob friendly.

Edited by BLTasty, December 11 2012 - 02:10 PM.

[The_Silencer]

I've not piloted the big guys much during this CB3 but lemme suggest the following hopefully non-so-naive idea:

On C Class special abilities: What if they might use items too_.. Don't think on deploying turrets but on using the other items..

[D20Face]

draco7891, on December 11 2012 - 01:07 PM, said:

D20Face, on December 11 2012 - 12:20 PM, said:

You seem to be ignoring missile silos.

Once I see you on the point, I run away and focus on the two other points (since it's only necessary to keep 2 points to win). That should be markedly easier now that your team is a man down.

One person holds 1/3 the points then. I don't see the issue.

I'd assume if this is competitive play we'd have two dedicated C class turtlers as well for point defense. So that's two points now.

draco7891, on December 11 2012 - 01:07 PM, said:

This is assuming, of course, that turreted C-classes are not laughably easy to rout. No dodging means no 180* turn = I run at you, boost-jump over top and play leapfrog, firing into you the whole time. 3 seconds later, the damage you've sustained erases the HP gap, and your choices are:

You'd soak at least one secondary hit while you're approaching, and at least a few shots from the primary weapon.

C classes have 200 more health than B classes to begin with. Add in the 35% effective increase and you're looking at another 300 health wide gap. Nothing in the game does 500 damage in the time it would take to turn around.

Specialization is all about taking penalties to situations you don't care about and maximizing your effect in the ones you do.

[draco7891]

D20Face, on December 11 2012 - 02:31 PM, said:

C classes have 200 more health than B classes to begin with. Add in the 35% effective increase and you're looking at another 300 health wide gap. Nothing in the game does 500 damage in the time it would take to turn around.

Math is wrong; with a ~200HP raw difference, with a ~1/3 damage reduction gives you ~300HP effective total. Plenty of things do that much damage in game, Mini-flak Scout for one. Plus, you cannot fire straight up; the maximum elevation means there is a cone of safety above your head. Stay airborne, stay in the cone, and you are free to fire at will. My fuel regens faster than you can turn; every time you do, I hop to the other side.

Quote

Specialization is all about taking penalties to situations you don't care about and maximizing your effect in the ones you do.

Situations you shouldn't care about when taking C-class abilities:

• Staying alive
  
• Remaining mobile
  
• Being an effective teammember
  
• Providing support
  
• Doing large amounts of damage
  
• Achieving a positive K/D ratio
  
• Taking game objectives

You will instead be effective at:

• Sitting in place
  
• Staring at walls
  
• Looking pretty
  
• Dying frequently
  
• Providing much needed humor to the opposing team
  
• Losing
  
• Knitting
  
• Basket-weaving
  
• Proper waxing and buffing technique

Seems about right, if you're into that sort of thing...

Draco

Edited by draco7891, December 11 2012 - 08:42 PM.

[Subdivision]

I agree with Draco 100%.

I'd like to add why should C class mechs have an ability that is only useful in certain engagements_ When all the other mech abilities can essentially get used in any engagement. Ok, lets say you are doing missile and you are solo holding a point while your team fights over one and another C class has the third, a very obvious strategy to read but that's not my point. Say two mechs come along. Strength in number. You're never even going to get out there if you are sat waiting in turret mode. Should you be able to hit every shot, which aint so easy if you are in a high level game and people know what they are doing as I'm sure you all do here, then you can take an opponent out. You'll then be easy pickings for someone else until you un-deploy and repair. Even the repair turret mode is miserably slow and would take too long for it to regen the damage you took. And as I was saying, it's much more likely you'll have more than one mech to deal with at which point their rate of fire is going to crush you before you can get one of them as you aren't moving, you are going to be hit by everything! Then what do you do_ Put two C classes on each point_ Four team members not roaming for assistance where it is more needed. I don't think the point you make about holding one or two points in a missile/siege game has much merit.

Adding on top of that the fact that when you engage in position other than these given situations where you are lying in wait, you are forced to engage without an effective ability when others are not. Sure their abilities have a cooldown and aren't so big on the numbers side so the difference it makes isn't as great. However, you seem to be missing the point that they have it. They only have to use it once in the engagement whereas a C class going into turret mode is tremendously foolhardy and asking to be laughed at essentially.

If I acknowledge the minimal benefit in limited circumstances of the ability, it doesn't in any way make up for the monumental disadvantages it brings in every other situation. I may be wrong and everybody might be using it incorrectly but until I see it used in top level play to great effect in most forms of engagement, I wont accept it as a fair ability to have. I've said this before too, I love the idea and concept behind it from the dev's, I just don't feel it translates in the current state of the game and could do with some more attention to help it fit better at least.

[D20Face]

Quote

Math is wrong; with a ~200HP raw difference, with a ~1/3 damage reduction gives you ~300HP effective total. Plenty of things do that much damage in game, Mini-flak Scout for one. Plus, you cannot fire straight up; the maximum elevation means there is a cone of safety above your head. Stay airborne, stay in the cone, and you are free to fire at will. My fuel regens faster than you can turn; every time you do, I hop to the other side.

Your math is wrong. 35% of 850 is 297. 297+200=497. We were talking about a health gap, so against an A class that'd be 797.
You can't aim straight down either. There's a similar cone underneath you. You'd only be able to hit with the splash of explosive weapons.
Your fuel does not regen faster than I can turn, don't be ridiculous.
And as far as hovering over me goes, I can always sit in a corner.

Quote

Situations you shouldn't care about when taking C-class abilities:

• Staying alive
  
• Remaining mobile
  
• Being an effective teammember
  
• Providing support
  
• Doing large amounts of damage
  
• Achieving a positive K/D ratio
  
• Taking game objectives

Staying alive_ I think I covered that.
Remaining mobile_ I'm defending a point, I shouldn't care about that.
Being effective_ I'm defending a point.
Providing support_ I'm defending a point.
Doing large amounts of damage. My %dealt to %taken will still be high.
Positive k/d. If you care about k/d in anything but a pubstomp you're doing it wrong.
taking game objectives. We already have the objective, I'm defending the %$#_ing point.

Quote

• Looking pretty

I ALWAYS look pretty.