43 replies to this topic

[Zeshi]

z121231211, on December 07 2012 - 10:18 AM, said:

Zeshi, on December 07 2012 - 09:47 AM, said:

If the emp is not nerfed all comp play is going to be is who can land the first emp and start chaining them. For causal play, all emp needs is a radius nerf and then it should be fine imo. But I have no idea how to fix it for comp.

I'm not a fan of disabling the emp user though, because it wont stop emps from being chained in comp, and it will drastically lower its use in casual play.

How about making it only explode if it hits another mech_

Id be fine with that, then at least it would be difficult to chain emps.

[ZHRGG]

Zeshi, on December 07 2012 - 09:47 AM, said:

If the emp is not nerfed all comp play is going to be is who can land the first emp and start chaining them. For causal play, all emp needs is a radius nerf and then it should be fine imo. But I have no idea how to fix it for comp.

I'm not a fan of disabling the emp user though, because it wont stop emps from being chained in comp, and it will drastically lower its use in casual play.

EMPs don't stop you from dodging or running away, and if you can get a pack to waste their EMPs on one target your team can easily turn the tables with repair charge spam. Everyone carrying EMP in comp play is just silly unless they hit every single enemy on the other team. It's far more valuable as a 1v1 tool because when you get hit by EMP in comp play, you can reliably run away as the enemy can't chase you without getting shot down by your team.

[Karaipantsu]

TheChaffeemancer, on December 07 2012 - 08:03 AM, said:

The detonator is an offensive item.

Derp, my bad.  I forgot I use the useless hologram on my Sharpie, because I should have bought Radar but didn't.

I was thinking maybe the EMP should be radius based.  The closer you are the to the center of the burst, the the more percentage of the 100% disablement you take.  Get pegged dead center, you're down for 4 seconds.  Take a glancing blow at half the radius, you're down for 2 seconds.  This'd solve MY boggle of constantly blasting myself with it because I think I'm out of range, but I'm not, and would reduce the item's overall effectiveness on a miss, resulting in required accurate use for effective output.

[Akrium]

Zeshi, on December 07 2012 - 09:47 AM, said:

If the emp is not nerfed all comp play is going to be is who can land the first emp and start chaining them. For causal play, all emp needs is a radius nerf and then it should be fine imo. But I have no idea how to fix it for comp.

I'm not a fan of disabling the emp user though, because it wont stop emps from being chained in comp, and it will drastically lower its use in casual play.

Actually I think you will see a little less use in comp play offensively. Simply because it is far better to chain target tow/nade than to worry about chaining emps. Emps are most useful in defensive capacity in which you are out numbered or out armored. Otherwise it is more prudent to just lay on the damage and move on to healing yourself. Then save the emp for the reinforcements that are coming back at you in a coordinated attack. You will want to counter their advantage of knowing where you are.

This is more my take on how it will get used.

[AsianJoyKiller]

Akrium, on December 07 2012 - 12:48 PM, said:

Zeshi, on December 07 2012 - 09:47 AM, said:

If the emp is not nerfed all comp play is going to be is who can land the first emp and start chaining them. For causal play, all emp needs is a radius nerf and then it should be fine imo. But I have no idea how to fix it for comp.

I'm not a fan of disabling the emp user though, because it wont stop emps from being chained in comp, and it will drastically lower its use in casual play.

Actually I think you will see a little less use in comp play offensively. Simply because it is far better to chain target tow/nade than to worry about chaining emps. Emps are most useful in defensive capacity in which you are out numbered or out armored. Otherwise it is more prudent to just lay on the damage and move on to healing yourself. Then save the emp for the reinforcements that are coming back at you in a coordinated attack. You will want to counter their advantage of knowing where you are.

This is more my take on how it will get used.

Most of the comp players I've seen lead off with an EMP in fights. When we manage to get together people like NotKjell, Toryne, Budekai, Beefcake, Beemann, me and all the others who are seriously considering competitive play in one server, you see EMPs going off at every engagement. What you don't see is Radar, Jammers or Health Orbs. Just a bunch of EMPs at the start or in the middle of fights to try and gain that critical edge.

Defensive use of EMPs is minimal, because at that point, it means you've already lost the advantage, and are likely in deep. Want to know a good way of ending up at that sort of disadvantage_
Use the EMP offensively.

[NotKjell]

AsianJoyKiller, on December 07 2012 - 03:52 PM, said:

Akrium, on December 07 2012 - 12:48 PM, said:

Zeshi, on December 07 2012 - 09:47 AM, said:

If the emp is not nerfed all comp play is going to be is who can land the first emp and start chaining them. For causal play, all emp needs is a radius nerf and then it should be fine imo. But I have no idea how to fix it for comp.

I'm not a fan of disabling the emp user though, because it wont stop emps from being chained in comp, and it will drastically lower its use in casual play.

Actually I think you will see a little less use in comp play offensively. Simply because it is far better to chain target tow/nade than to worry about chaining emps. Emps are most useful in defensive capacity in which you are out numbered or out armored. Otherwise it is more prudent to just lay on the damage and move on to healing yourself. Then save the emp for the reinforcements that are coming back at you in a coordinated attack. You will want to counter their advantage of knowing where you are.

This is more my take on how it will get used.

Most of the comp players I've seen lead off with an EMP in fights. When we manage to get together people like NotKjell, Toryne, Budekai, Beefcake, Beemann, me and all the others who are seriously considering competitive play in one server, you see EMPs going off at every engagement. What you don't see is Radar, Jammers or Health Orbs. Just a bunch of EMPs at the start or in the middle of fights to try and gain that critical edge.

Defensive use of EMPs is minimal, because at that point, it means you've already lost the advantage, and are likely in deep. Want to know a good way of ending up at that sort of disadvantage_
Use the EMP offensively.

This. Often I hold off on using the EMP, and I feel this is a bad habit from playing with random players. When we've gotten servers full of the best players, EMP use starts going crazy. If I see toryne, I know he's going to EMP me so I try and land mine first. In team fights or chained it can get just stupid. Even 1v1, I'm forced to generally take a round of HEAT+GL/TOW splash damage while I hide which is more than a HE charge direct hit.

[Akrium]

I don't shoot it off right off the bat because half the time the person has more than enough boost to make it meh. So I let them dodge a bit and then land it. Yes the fight will end fast either way, but I prefer to be the last one to use it, than the first one.

I just find more success this way. Go ahead and hit me first.. unless I am in a horrid position (it does happen more than i like, working on that) it isn't going to do as much as my emp after you chase me a bit.

By the end of this beta I was seriously over reaching myself just to see what I could and could not pull off. So it was looking like I was having horrible games but I was doing it on purpose to attempt to better myself in crappy situations.

Edited by Akrium, December 07 2012 - 04:43 PM.

[AsianJoyKiller]

Akrium, on December 07 2012 - 04:43 PM, said:

I don't shoot it off right off the bat because half the time the person has more than enough boost to make it meh. So I let them dodge a bit and then land it. Yes the fight will end fast either way, but I prefer to be the last one to use it, than the first one.

I just find more success this way. Go ahead and hit me first.. unless I am in a horrid position (it does happen more than i like, working on that) it isn't going to do as much as my emp after you chase me a bit.

By the end of this beta I was seriously over reaching myself just to see what I could and could not pull off. So it was looking like I was having horrible games but I was doing it on purpose to attempt to better myself in crappy situations.

You are likely basing your experience off playing against random pubs, not full matches of professional/competitive gamers.

[Akrium]

AsianJoyKiller, on December 07 2012 - 04:48 PM, said:

You are likely basing your experience off playing against random pubs, not full matches of professional/competitive gamers.

In those situations usually you are getting 2 v 1ed and you die before the emp would have made a difference anyways. And you wasted it while you already focus fired and killed me. But yes, I have played against good players here. I've done well.. I know I'm not the best but I am not horrid either.

I still think focus fire will win out in the end.

I am going to play the way that fits me. It seems to work even vs good players.

[Beemann]

Akrium, on December 07 2012 - 05:51 PM, said:

In those situations usually you are getting 2 v 1ed and you die before the emp would have made a difference anyways. And you wasted it while you already focus fired and killed me. But yes, I have played against good players here. I've done well.. I know I'm not the best but I am not horrid either.

I still think focus fire will win out in the end.

I am going to play the way that fits me. It seems to work even vs good players.

In matches with full teams of skilled players you're always fighting 2v1_ That actually makes 0 sense

And EMP's problem is WITH focus fire. Chaining EMP's will absolutely be a comp mainstay unless EMP is changed or banned in competitive play

[Akrium]

Beemann, on December 07 2012 - 06:00 PM, said:

Akrium, on December 07 2012 - 05:51 PM, said:

In those situations usually you are getting 2 v 1ed and you die before the emp would have made a difference anyways. And you wasted it while you already focus fired and killed me. But yes, I have played against good players here. I've done well.. I know I'm not the best but I am not horrid either.

I still think focus fire will win out in the end.

I am going to play the way that fits me. It seems to work even vs good players.

In matches with full teams of skilled players you're always fighting 2v1_ That actually makes 0 sense

And EMP's problem is WITH focus fire. Chaining EMP's will absolutely be a comp mainstay unless EMP is changed or banned in competitive play

Yes this is all theory crafting. And I would assume the 2v1s because you are saying you are going to use the emps offensively. Thus you will be moving onto the target not waiting for the target. More than likely you will be attacking in a way to your advantage. This won't always happen, true. Just saying... that would seem logical to go for 2v1s in comp play. But your points must be right always.

You guys really do try to push your ideas don't you_ Please stop.. you arn't going to rattle me with your usual tag teaming. This trolling is just silly. And if isn't trolling, you are overly aggressive and it looks like trolling. Just flat out saying I am wrong and that is your only retort is worthless.

Will chaining emps happen.. yes.. but most likely on the higher armor mechs that can survive the emp to begin with. Otherwise you are wasting the second emp on something you should already be killing fast.

Though I would like to see the emp go away personally. It would allow better use of the other options.

[Beemann]

Theorycrafting != "I make up an imbalanced scenario that suits the assertion I'm making"
Furthermore, this ISN'T theorycrafting. We've PLAYED matches where this happens
We HAVE given reasons as to why you're wrong. If you can't be bothered to actually address them that's on you
You're ignoring the fact that EMP's can hit multiple targets (as well as hit through walls and outside of the visible radius)
You're ignoring that it makes fights binary (this is something that has been the case in high skill fights, this is not a prediction) and the only way to counter EMP use is with pre-emptive EMP use
You're ignoring the fact that there's no reason to NOT use EMP the moment you have the opportunity to gain anything from it, and that the reward for low-risk shots is incredibly high
You're altering a given situation to suit your argument (organized 4v4/5v5/6v6 does not magically turn into "always a 2v1") and completely ignoring the given scenario (IE two teams full of competent and skilled players)

And if you think the EMP should be taken out anyway, why bother arguing_

[Akrium]

I am not arguing that all fights will be 2v1.. and i've not said they will ALWAYS be 2v1. You are just putting that into place because I didn't make it clear. I am saying one would want to aim to have the player advantage in a fight always. And we are all still theorycrafting because this game is NOT LIVE. What we have been playing is hawken beta.. not hawken 1.0. You have not been playing so many rounds of competitive play in hawken that you would have learned it all by now. This is because the player pool is not yet big enough and the game is not yet done.

The reason I don't want to use it is if i can win quickly without it I can have it prepped for the next fight. Yes it reloads.. but it is on a 1 min CD. There is no 100% odds of having it again by the next fight. In fact it benefits the other team to rush us again while we have our CDs down. This can make a huge difference at key moments. Will it always_ Probably not.. but will the emp always win when you toss it first. Not always either. So really your point is no better than mine, but you are trying to assert that it is always better. I do understand why you want to toss it right away. But you have to be playing spot on or you waste your initiative and can easily lose the fight. Which when dealing on the competitive level can and will happen.

Why am I arguing_ Lets go back... I just stated how I felt it would be used in the future. Then I am told I am wrong because of theorycrafting. I just stated an opinion and you just say I am wrong because you are right based on your theorycrafting. I am just pointing out another way it could come about and you are two are taking offense or trying to belittle me. And just because I don't think the emp should be in the game doesn't mean I shouldn't consider how it will be used down the road. Because it is currently in the game and there is nothing saying it will go away.

So please.. calm down. You guys are better than this. I know you are both skilled and I respect that. But stop being so overly aggressive on your views while totally ignoring other views. There is so much left to this game that we have no idea how it will plan out (skill tree). If the emp turns out balanced as it should be, both of our views will be correct in a sense both will work. And it will make the games much more interesting.

[Zeshi]

I do kind of agree with Akrium here. While i think the limted evidence we have allows us to make an educated guess about how it will be broken for comp play, were not truly going to know until the first matches are held (and maybe not even then as people may find counters for the launch emp first strat. I think its unlikely with emp as it is now, but its certainly possible).

[AsianJoyKiller]

Akrium, you reeeeaaaally need to figure out what theorycrafting is.

[Beemann]

...so if we play in open beta with the exact same people it magically isn't theorycrafting any more_
That doesn't really make any sense to me
And when you look at a competitive player pool, it's generally a VERY small portion of the population

Plus there's always the fact that if play styles from sample groups weren't good enough for feedback, no balance changes would have been made throughout the beta test

You're being told you're wrong because you threw out an opinion based on concrete and measurable gameplay mechanics and we disagreed based on actual experience in addition to knowledge of said mechanics.

When asked to explain why you think it's still valid in situation X, you pulled out unrelated situation Y, so I called you out for it

And now apparently unsupported assertions (unsupported because you still haven't addressed any questions or criticisms) > any evidence I've gathered or any logic I've used because apparently none of the beta gameplay feedback counts

Oh and your assertion was that fights will USUALLY be 2v1, which you have yet to prove while arguing against people who have played against competitive players

This conversation wouldn't have taken this turn if you had simply tried to explain yourself instead of continuing to toss more assertions out

[Akrium]

No just saying we cannot say what it truly will be until hawken is done being beta on a whole. Thus the hawken 1.0. THEN it stops being theorycrafting and becomes legitimate on sound tactics. The game is done.. the game is set.. we know what we are completely dealing with at that point. Until then.. sorry ajk.. you are just making assumptions as to the outcome... aka theorycrafting. Nothing wrong with that.. but I do understand the word.

And I've been disagreeing based on actual experience in game play as well. But you are invalidating mine. As I've stated before I've played against good players and this tactic does work.

I shouldn't have stated about the 2v1 to start with and have made it more clear I was basically referring the concept of winning through numbers because it is much more safe. Thus the whole x, y what ever stuff I think you are talking about. So my bad on that. I think it caused you guys to get hung up on that too much.

Again, I've had experience playing this game vs good players. And those games were actually the most fun and rewarding. And I was never saying your point is invalid, just that my point is not as well. Through experience I've come to my conclusion.

And don't talk to me about assertions mr lover of the broken dps charts .

I just cannot wait for the open beta when we get back the option to choose our servers hopefully. Sooo much more testing on the rest of the game can be done better, if the match making part is done and we can move on from having to use it.

[Beemann]

Can you explain what fundamental difference will make testing and feedback valid at 1.0 and not say... CB3 or OB_
You seem to think that there's a fundamental difference between OB and Release for a F2P MP game... and there really isn't
Bugs will continue to be fixed, stability issues may very well occur after release (they have in pretty much every other game I've played), loads of new content will be added and players will have the same level of access
So nothing will change on our end, insofar as testing is concerned

As well, unless there's a huge change to the EMP (which is what we're saying should happen already) it will continue to have the already measurably large effect on high skill engagements. This isn't theory-crafting (which is something done purely by the numbers without doing actual testing in a reasonably accurate environment) because there's no magical counter to the EMP, and because we've actually DONE IT and TESTED IT in REAL MATCHES
Which is not what theory-crafting is, no matter how much you may blindly assert otherwise
In fact, it's ridiculous to assume that some change will abruptly happen because the devs have decided that they've fixed enough bugs to call the game released, if the EMP itself has not been touched

You've been disagreeing on what specific grounds exactly_ Playing against Beefc4ke, NotKjell, Asianjoykiller, and quite a few others in even remotely competitive fights has resulted in binary situations where getting the chance to use (and then promptly using) EMP first decides the fight. There aren't any second chances and there isn't any breathing room when you're fighting a player of equal or greater skill when both players are actually capable of prediction and connecting shots

Instead of giving actual evidence, you continue to just make blanket assertions. We've given reasons (many, in this thread and in others) as to why the EMP is ill-suited for competitive play, and it's met with statements like the 2v1 one (which I keep mentioning because it's completely indicative of the sort of opposition we've come up against time and time again from you and from others)

As for this talk of "broken DPS charts" are you referring to the actually measurably high DPS of the mini flak_
'Cuz that's a fact, not an unsupported assertion
One has evidence backing it, the other hangs there in the wind pretending it's important

Also you DO know that we did actually have organized matches via joining on friends right_ Both Sunday Scrim sessions and the derping around on the last day shenanigans (which AJK now has a video of on his channel) were done using this method
The testing conditions you're asking for (choosing a server and people to play against) were absolutely achieved during CB3

[The_Silencer]

Actually, I don't see anything wrong with the EMP.

[Etan]

Increase the cooldown on it. It is way shorter then the other support items. To 3 minutes i think so its not used in every fight. I always felt like everytime i entered a engagement my emp was up i never had to wait for it. Why not use it to engage every fight it will be up for my next one (if we win by the time they engage again ill have it and if we lose i died so i have it). Also a broken animation is never fun but im sure that will be fixed.

Edited by Etan, December 10 2012 - 07:22 AM.