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The Fallacy of the Free-to-Play Game and Hawken


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#41 Rosengren

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Posted January 02 2013 - 11:47 AM

View PostLordofNosgoth, on January 02 2013 - 12:06 AM, said:

1) While most purchasable items are, indeed, merely cosmetic; there are quite a few other items that can - or could - be purchased for real world money. While each of these items offered a significant advantage (like the ever popular "Jarate") the advantages they offered weren't so overwhelming that it changed the game. Hence there were - and are - direct benefits to paying.ion, kills the community at large.

All TF2 items with real gameplay function are available via the in-game drop system. There are players out there who are near drowning in stuff and a new player can simply ask for something. I keep several good and fun items that I already have my own copies of but that new players might not. I am most likely not alone in this. The only real benefit to upgrading your account through buying anything at all, even the cheapest possible item, is an increased inventory and the ability to send items to others.

This is aside from stock gear being fully usable in all cases, anyway.

View PostLordofNosgoth, on January 02 2013 - 12:06 AM, said:

Stats can only be increased by endless grinding. In the first 2 CBE's, this wasn't too bad as certain levels would unlock additional tech points, which helped facilitate an easier transition throughout the leveling process. This is no longer the case. Players who are willing to grind for countless hours are rewarded while new players - paid or not - are at a severe disadvantage., kills the community at large.

The mech stats bonuses are so minuscule as to be of no concern at all. New players are at a disadvantage because they don't know how the game works and in some cases because they don't have a particular weapon or item unlocked. Reaching a high enough level to gain the actually relevant optimisations, the dodge and repair rate ones, takes very little time.

View PostLordofNosgoth, on January 02 2013 - 10:42 AM, said:

The larger point you keep missing is: There's nothing there's nothing worth buying  with Meteor points.

Cosmetic items.

EDIT: Woah, I just got to the part about the mech's various special abilities and how the cooldown reduction one is the best because it has no drawbacks. Well! The only ones that have a drawback are the c-class turret modes and they are the worst ones by far. The rest are all upside. They have no penalty at all. The C-RT and the Assault are not alone in that. The C-RT isn't even "insanely broken", it's just a bit better than it needs to be and numbers on its weaponry are easily tweaked. Internals are purchasable with MC.

Like, are you correct about anything at all_

Edited by Rosengren, January 02 2013 - 11:51 AM.


#42 draco7891

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Posted January 02 2013 - 12:19 PM

View PostLordofNosgoth, on January 02 2013 - 10:39 AM, said:

So, let's take toll:

Anyone who's spend over $50 on this game in a single sitting (or multiples), since that's the average cost for a new game to offset the initial investement, post images of your reciept(s) here. (Please edit any personal, detrimental info out). Reach over 1,000 and you will convince me that I'm wrong and I will leave forever.

But that's the whole point, isn't it_ It's the whole reason you're all so angry. I bring valid points to the table, so rather than use your brains, read the posts - which were verbose enough that you didn't need to divine any intent - and actually respond with intelligence, you troll and rage.

But go ahead, prove me wrong...

There are, exactly, 878 Commander-level Vanguards listed in the games credits. That's a $60 package. That list is only Commander-level purchases, and only those purchases that chose to be listed, not the entire Vanguard Initiative.

Your argument boils down to:
  • The TOW is too powerful.
  • There are no compelling reasons to pay money/no incentive to do so.
Therefore:
  • Make the TOW a pay-only weapon.
  • Listen to me, because I am the Delphic Oracle of F2P games.

Every other point you've made about Hawken's grind and/or the ability or inability to ameliorate it are entirely wrong. Your points about the optimization trees giving distinct vertical bonuses, as they are currently implemented, are wrong. Your insistence on a system whereby all content in Hawken need only be sold once (ie, mech parts and skins and so forth) is completely counter-intuitive to your assertion that Hawken has no incentives to spend money.

You are correct in asserting that Hawken in its current state has little if any incentive to spend money; I have a Commander Vanguard and thusfar have not spent a single Meteor point; every purchase has been predicated on my Hawken credits. The issue is, that despite the enormous tomes of text you are wont to expound upon the forums, you have singularly failed to offer either a compelling solution to this problem, nor any proof, evidence or logical reasoning behind said solution. You have failed to demonstrate a successful system in another game that deserves consideration or emulation, and you are generally being very negative and snarky, as though it will make people listen to you.

I can assure you, it does not.

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#43 Cypherhalo

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Posted January 02 2013 - 12:40 PM

View PostLordofNosgoth, on January 02 2013 - 10:42 AM, said:

The larger point you keep missing is: There's nothing there's nothing worth buying  with Meteor points.

There's only nothing worth buying if you want to lord your superiority over people who don't pay.  Quite frankly, I think it is worth skipping the grind to buy a mech, especially when they are only $5.  I think it is worth buying some cosmetic items for my fave mech.  Insanely enough, I want F2P games to be actually free to play.  That's why people hate pay2win, which is basically what you're suggesting.  If a game says it is free to play then it should be free.  It should not be "free to try but you'll have to pay to be any good", that just annoys people and makes them feel like they got suckered.  Either do F2P right or don't do it at all.  Fortunately, ever since League of Legends has become such a massive success by doing F2P right, others are following suit, like Adhesive games.  They're doing just fine and I will no longer respond to this thread, no point keeping it alive as this is nonsense.
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You win a war by making the other guy die for his.  -
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#44 Nitris

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Posted January 02 2013 - 03:50 PM

Alright, am I reading the same thread as all you posters above me_

What I have gotten from OP:

- TOW needs tweaking (and I agree), plus he has given a few ideas that could work that practically noone has bothered discussing.
The simple fact that it is clearly the easiest right click weapon to use and garners great results when it does work HAS caused it to become the FOO, and thus renders purchasing other mechs to be a far less appealing idea to most.
I'm not saying it is OP, nor the be-all-end-all weapon, but it is just a little too newbie friendly and this really must change.

- The current item system needs looking at (mech owned, verses player owned items, etc) which is another thing I agree on.
I would be much happier with account-wide purchases with a real inventory system where you can move items between mechs, but only if you have enough of said item to equip it on multiple mechs at the same time.
EG: Needing two or more MG turrets if you want to equip them on more than one mech at the same time.

- Using MC to purchase things is a lot less appealing than it should be for this game to adequately sustain itself. THIS IS NOT ASKING FOR THE GAME TO BE PAY2WIN!
I partially agree with things not really jumping out at me to buy them with MC, at the same time I'm not sure there is an easy way to change this without either turning the game P2W, which I certainly do not want, or by radically changing core mechanics of the game-- players level up, rather than mechs, full on player owned item system and inventory, etc.


Ok, so OP has gotten a little defensive, but to be honest a lot of you guys are cherry picking small parts of his posts to rip into, so I cannot blame him.
And, alright he might have gone off on a "holier-than-thou" bit when he said he has predicted things that have come true and that everyone should listen to him yadda yadda...
But, come on people-- We are better than this.

Edited by Nitris, January 02 2013 - 03:54 PM.

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#45 Steakhouse

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Posted January 02 2013 - 07:17 PM

View PostLordofNosgoth, on January 02 2013 - 10:56 AM, said:

1) You read so very little of what was posted that you missed the entire point.

2) Your own video brings up more points to validate my argument than it does anything to play it down. Perhaps you should re-watch it.

Let's take a look at your quote in its greater context, with a little highlighting.

View PostLordofNosgoth, on December 31 2012 - 11:08 PM, said:

To put it succinctly: Most people who pay money for a game - while others do not - will rightfully and correctly desire advantages that free players simply don't or can't have. Doing anything less only serves to alienate the populous who actually can and will pay for the game and its content. This, of course, doesn't mean that paying players should be offered weapons that will dominate the free competition so completely that it drives them away from playing the game. But under no circumstances should free players receive top tier weapon like TOW from the outset of the game either. This is blatantly wrong, short-sighted and stupid and this type of craziness will result in the death of Hawken before it gets to really live. If anything, such a weapon should be an unlockable for paying players. Same goes for the Seeker missile for the Rocketeer.

Even without the context, that quote from your own OP doesn't help you, since you're still implying that monetizing players should be dominating free players, just "not too much."

So, can you tell me how the two Extra Credits videos support your demands for pay-gating any content you believe has the most power in the game_

View PostNitris, on January 02 2013 - 03:50 PM, said:

Ok, so OP has gotten a little defensive, but to be honest a lot of you guys are cherry picking small parts of his posts to rip into, so I cannot blame him.
And, alright he might have gone off on a "holier-than-thou" bit when he said he has predicted things that have come true and that everyone should listen to him yadda yadda...
But, come on people-- We are better than this.

He's not just demanding the TOW be pay-gated. He wants the most powerful content in the game pay-gated, and claims it's a fallacy to consider this business strategy "pay-to-win."

Edited by Steakhouse, January 02 2013 - 07:19 PM.


#46 LordofNosgoth

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Posted January 02 2013 - 09:41 PM

View PostSteakhouse, on January 02 2013 - 07:17 PM, said:

View PostLordofNosgoth, on January 02 2013 - 10:56 AM, said:

1) You read so very little of what was posted that you missed the entire point.

2) Your own video brings up more points to validate my argument than it does anything to play it down. Perhaps you should re-watch it.

Let's take a look at your quote in its greater context, with a little highlighting.

View PostLordofNosgoth, on December 31 2012 - 11:08 PM, said:

... from the outset of the game either...

Proof you don't know how to read nor care to; you're just blindly hate trolling.
"There is no true genius without a tincture of madness." - Aristotle
"Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results; that is the definition of insanity." - Albert Einstein
"If everyone is thinking alike, then someone isn't thinking." General George Patton
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#47 LordofNosgoth

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Posted January 02 2013 - 09:52 PM

View PostNitris, on January 02 2013 - 03:50 PM, said:

Alright, am I reading the same thread as all you posters above me_

What I have gotten from OP:

- TOW needs tweaking (and I agree), plus he has given a few ideas that could work that practically noone has bothered discussing.
The simple fact that it is clearly the easiest right click weapon to use and garners great results when it does work HAS caused it to become the FOO, and thus renders purchasing other mechs to be a far less appealing idea to most.
I'm not saying it is OP, nor the be-all-end-all weapon, but it is just a little too newbie friendly and this really must change.

- The current item system needs looking at (mech owned, verses player owned items, etc) which is another thing I agree on.
I would be much happier with account-wide purchases with a real inventory system where you can move items between mechs, but only if you have enough of said item to equip it on multiple mechs at the same time.
EG: Needing two or more MG turrets if you want to equip them on more than one mech at the same time.

- Using MC to purchase things is a lot less appealing than it should be for this game to adequately sustain itself. THIS IS NOT ASKING FOR THE GAME TO BE PAY2WIN!
I partially agree with things not really jumping out at me to buy them with MC, at the same time I'm not sure there is an easy way to change this without either turning the game P2W, which I certainly do not want, or by radically changing core mechanics of the game-- players level up, rather than mechs, full on player owned item system and inventory, etc.


Ok, so OP has gotten a little defensive, but to be honest a lot of you guys are cherry picking small parts of his posts to rip into, so I cannot blame him.
And, alright he might have gone off on a "holier-than-thou" bit when he said he has predicted things that have come true and that everyone should listen to him yadda yadda...
But, come on people-- We are better than this.

Finally! Thank you for taking the time to read and post intelligently!

And no, I don't think that the "most powerful weapons in the game should be pay-gated". But you shouldn't f**king start the game out with any of them either; that's detrimental to overall gameplay.

I never once said that monetized players should be beating non-paying players; but only have an advantage they do not. If Adhesive/Meteor is going to give top-tier worthy weapons to free players, paid players should rightfully be able to equal the imbalance with better weapons on a wider class range.

Paid advantages could be, for example:

1) Additional Secondary weapons slots - while this doesn't offer a significant combat advantage, it does offer greater convenience and strategic possibilities.

2) Additional Skill/Tech points for purchase (say, a Maximum of 5-7 per mech_).

3) Additional weapons (since they're all side grades, right_) for purchase.

The one thing that absolutely needs to be changed is:

Tech points, levels, internals and paint jobs should be the property of the player/pilot. Not the goddamned mech. <- This alone can be enough to cause people to quit playing in droves.
"There is no true genius without a tincture of madness." - Aristotle
"Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results; that is the definition of insanity." - Albert Einstein
"If everyone is thinking alike, then someone isn't thinking." General George Patton
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle
"Only two things are infinite: The universe and stupidity... and I'm not sure about the former." - Albert Einstein

#48 Steakhouse

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Posted January 02 2013 - 09:54 PM

View PostLordofNosgoth, on January 02 2013 - 09:41 PM, said:

Proof you don't know how to read nor care to; you're just blindly hate trolling.

This is hardly proof, considering the TOW is just one of a number of things you consider too powerful to remain as free content.

You also haven't answered my question. Can you tell me how the two Extra Credits videos support your demands for pay-gating any content you believe has the most power in the game_

#49 marshalade

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Posted January 02 2013 - 10:06 PM

This thread is a joke, not only are you suggesting absolutely horrible and undesirable things but you're telling every single person who disagrees that they're hating and trolling (not trolling, lrn2internet) while telling anyone who will give any sort of credit to your opinion that they're posting intelligently.

What exactly do you hope to accomplish by this_ What point do you aim to prove_ You're not making a sound argument and you're not considering the alternate viewpoint, so why do you expect you'll even be taken seriously_

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#50 Rightbrain

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Posted January 02 2013 - 10:27 PM

all you noobs need to learn how to shift d or a out of the way of a TOW rocket.
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#51 Atlanis

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Posted January 03 2013 - 02:20 AM

View PostPursang, on January 02 2013 - 01:31 AM, said:

View PostLordofNosgoth, on January 01 2013 - 07:09 PM, said:

The whole problem with everything you just said is this:

In all other F2P games, you can bypass the grind (to a greater or lesser degree) with money. Here, you can do nothing of the sort. So I present this simple logic so that you may understand the fallacious nature of your statement:

If there is no advantage to be gained from paying, there is no reason to pay.
If there is no reason to pay, most people simply won't pay. <- This is human nature. Take a psychology class or ten; you'll learn this.
If the majority of people play, but do not pay, there is no tangible returns on the investments made by the developers or their investors.
If there are no tangible returns, then there is no money to pay the ever-renewing costs of support.
If there are no monies for support, it dies.
If support dries up, players get angry.
If players get angry over a continued lack of support, they quit playing.
If players quit playing, the game dies.

Logic: +1
You: 0

Winner_: Logic.

Oh how cute! You seem to have forgotten the fact that this game sells XP and HC boosts, helping people to lessen if not bypass the grind entirely, thus negating this self-indulgent tirade entirely.

Logic 1
You 0

Don't forget that you can outright buy mechs etc for real-life money.

#52 Cypherhalo

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Posted January 03 2013 - 04:35 AM

View PostNitris, on January 02 2013 - 03:50 PM, said:

Alright, am I reading the same thread as all you posters above me_

What I have gotten from OP:

- TOW needs tweaking (and I agree), plus he has given a few ideas that could work that practically noone has bothered discussing.
The simple fact that it is clearly the easiest right click weapon to use and garners great results when it does work HAS caused it to become the FOO, and thus renders purchasing other mechs to be a far less appealing idea to most.
I'm not saying it is OP, nor the be-all-end-all weapon, but it is just a little too newbie friendly and this really must change.

- The current item system needs looking at (mech owned, verses player owned items, etc) which is another thing I agree on.
I would be much happier with account-wide purchases with a real inventory system where you can move items between mechs, but only if you have enough of said item to equip it on multiple mechs at the same time.
EG: Needing two or more MG turrets if you want to equip them on more than one mech at the same time.

- Using MC to purchase things is a lot less appealing than it should be for this game to adequately sustain itself. THIS IS NOT ASKING FOR THE GAME TO BE PAY2WIN!
I partially agree with things not really jumping out at me to buy them with MC, at the same time I'm not sure there is an easy way to change this without either turning the game P2W, which I certainly do not want, or by radically changing core mechanics of the game-- players level up, rather than mechs, full on player owned item system and inventory, etc.


Ok, so OP has gotten a little defensive, but to be honest a lot of you guys are cherry picking small parts of his posts to rip into, so I cannot blame him.
And, alright he might have gone off on a "holier-than-thou" bit when he said he has predicted things that have come true and that everyone should listen to him yadda yadda...
But, come on people-- We are better than this.

Eh, I'd have to disagree with you on TOW.  Quite frankly, as an average player here I'm really glad TOW is as "newbie friendly" as it is and it hasn't stopped me from trying other mechs.  I own more then half of them at this point thanks to the double HC weekends and dropping a little cash.  Note: I spent money becuase this game is not pay2win.  I personally love playing my Infil, even without the TOW.

Your idea of an inventory system, well, I think it would actually hurt PGI's business model.  If I buy an MG Turret and can then move it around on all my mechs at will, why ever buy another one_  Most people tend to run one mech per match anyway so if I'm in the mood to run my Infil, move the MG turret to him.  Want to run Assault next round_  Pop back over to the garage real quick, move, and back into the match.  It simply would make it far too easy for people to buy what they want with HC or MC.  Hawken has to have some sort of grind to keep people playing the game.  As it stands, I think they've gotten the grind just right and made it enjoyable.  I do wish HC built up a little faster but honestly, I'm ok with the current gain.  Their current system keeps you playing and mastering a mech and decking it out, I just see no issue with it and thinking have a player inventory would seriously mess with their business model.  

As far as spending MC, I'll just call that a difference of opinion.  I have no issue spending MC to lower the grind if I'm in the mood, for example buy a mech or an internal I want rather then grind for it.  I also have no issue using MC to customize my mech.  I think both of those are things that I want to spend MC on.  I can tell you I would be upset if there was some kind of special weapon or something that was pay only, that would make me feel like the game is not really free to play, only free to try because all the good toys are locked behind a pay wall.  

That's my opinions on the subject so I think two things, 1) we disagree with OP (well, I've heard others complain about TOW, to each their own) and 2) he's been rude, unlike you, so that doesn't help.  Well, okay, another, 3) he wants the game to be pay2win, that's what I gather from his posts and people are going to be a little peeved by that.  I'm confident he would object to that but that is the way it seems to most of us and even you seem to tacitly admit it.  Anyway, compared to other F2P games I've tried this one seems like it has a very good business model and it is a lot of fun.  I don't think it is in any trouble and I have to disagree on the changes you proposed.  That's my opinion at least.
You don't win a war by dying for your country.  
You win a war by making the other guy die for his.  -
sanitizing the great George S. Patton
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#53 Pursang

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Posted January 03 2013 - 05:45 AM

View PostAtlanis, on January 03 2013 - 02:20 AM, said:

Don't forget that you can outright buy mechs etc for real-life money.

Yeah, something tells me the OP will conveniently overlook this fact. Couldn't tell you why though! He seems like a nice and mature individual. =)
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#54 Tibster

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Posted January 03 2013 - 08:13 AM

Wall of text hit me for 10000000000 hp.

I think all games should 100% free and the team should keep working for free to entertain you forever,,,,,zzzzzz

#55 Zeshi

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Posted January 03 2013 - 09:55 AM

View PostLordofNosgoth, on December 31 2012 - 11:08 PM, said:

To put it succinctly: Most people who pay money for a game - while others do not - will rightfully and correctly desire advantages that free players simply don't or can't have. Doing anything less only serves to alienate the populous who actually can and will pay for the game and its content. This, of course, doesn't mean that paying players should be offered weapons that will dominate the free competition so completely that it drives them away from playing the game. But under no circumstances should free players receive top tier weapon like TOW from the outset of the game either. This is blatantly wrong, short-sighted and stupid and this type of craziness will result in the death of Hawken before it gets to really live. If anything, such a weapon should be an unlockable for paying players. Same goes for the Seeker missile for the Rocketeer.

Encouraging the devs to go Pay2win so the game can lose 95% of its player base in a few months_ Great idea! (btw OP, this is coming from a person who dropped 60 bucks on the vanguard initiative). Myself and many other paying players would quit immediately if what you suggested about gimping new players was implemented.

OP, it is never, ever okay to offer combat advantages to paying players. It ruins the integrity of the game if people can say/think (are be accurate about saying it) that "X person won because he paid".

Do you want this game to turn out like MWO where new players are stuck with god-awful starting mechs that put them at a competitive disadvantage in order to manipulate them into paying money just to have a fair fight_
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#56 dorobo

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Posted January 03 2013 - 09:57 AM

I just cant read this till the end.. these doomsayers starting to annoy me... ive spent my 10 bucks on changing some parts and adding cheap patterns on my mechs so they look pretty and MINE and ive thanked developers that way for a great game. I can buy any mech i want with hc. Now i have to go play a match or two..

#57 LordofNosgoth

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Posted February 02 2014 - 03:06 AM

View PostLordofNosgoth, on December 31 2012 - 11:08 PM, said:

I've heard it time and time again:

"F2P sounds good, but they always end up being Pay2Win and that's wrong and it sux."

^ This, ladies and germs, is a fallacy. In point of fact, it's a blatant lie. I know that sounds like a bold claim, but let's review why it isn't, shall we_
  • Every game - like any other product - requires time, investment, effort and skill in order to develop.

  • Developers, at the end of the day, are just like you and I: They want to receive a fair wage for their efforts; they want to be paid for the work they do.

  • People who pay money for an item desire for their returns to be worth their investment. This is where the problem begins.

  • While some purchasers might be okay with unlocking new skins or paint jobs, most players will not be okay with paying hard-earned cash for what amounts to an image they could easily create for themselves in Gimp - for free.

  • It seems like a good idea to charge for new mech parts - and it would be - except for the fact that they must continue to do so for every new mech they use (parts not being transferrable in any way). This leads to players being daunted by the fact they will have to purchase new parts each and every time they add a new mech type to their inventory.

  • "Pay2Win" is a negative connotation that is assigned to games that offer new weapons in exchange for real world money. This is particular term was coined by people who don't feel as if they should have to pay for new content. Example: A good example is the Crossbow that's now offered in BF3: It is a one-shot kill if it impacts, period. And the complaining hasn't stopped. Those who complain always conveniently overlook the fact that to equip the crossbow, the player in question must sacrifice their gadget. For Recon, this means no MAV (which is the smallest sacrifice that can be made), For Assault it means no Med kit; for Support it means no explosives and for Engineer they must sacrifice their RPG, SMAW or Javelin. With the exception of the Recon class (which is largely a semi-suicidal all-or-nothing class with a high-skill ceiling to high-power ratio class anyway) the other classes must sacrifice crucial and more beneficial items to gain this weapon. In addition, you can only unlock the weapon by actually meeting the new unlock criterion that also came with the DLC. In short: High skill players will largely ignore this weapon because it's more of a detriment than a benefit to competitive play. It's for this reason you see noobie players using far more often than Veterans, who typically rely on higher skill-sets and better tactics than a single-shot weapon with an incredibly long reload time - the fact it is a one-shot kill can be ignored for this very reason.
What I've noticed about Hawken that has mostly been ignored is that the TOW missle is severely OP - especially on new mechs. It can be - and has been - argued that the reason for putting such a weapon on a class used by every new player is that it balances the skill to power ratio. But what obviously hasn't been considered is that, as long as new players - playing at no cost or investment from themselves - can continue using a weapon that, even by the admission of skilled veterans, has a High Reward/Low Risk ratio (the very definition of "broken" in the gaming community; broken weapons also correctly being labled "OP" or over-powered) why would they ever pay to use anything else_ Why would you_ Why would anyone_ Especially if, like many of us, you only spent a measly $10 or so to purchase other mech types to see if anything had changed since the last Closed Beta, only to find that all other weapons - when compared to the general utility of TOW - are pathetic in comparison. New players will find, much to their disappointment, that only 1 other mech has this weapon. Given that it's also in the lightest class and is the fastest chassis in the game, after purchasing that one mech, why ever play anything else_ It's like the "FOO" Strategy argument; new players will simply whale away until they run into a strategem/combination they can't beat and then quit. The problem with this is the game will quickly become a Ghost Town. Don't believe me_ Go play "Transformers: War for Cybertron". Newbies always end up resorting to using Leader with a Fusion Cannon, Magma Frag launcher and Warcry. These abilities also have a HRwd/LRsk ratio and, as such, are common place. With no balance changes put in place by the developers - after 2 solid years of begging for it - no anti-cheat and this strategem reaching the point of insanity (since Warcry + Rage perk adds +35% ATK and +25% DEF and this is stackable, provided each user has a different - if any - Warcry perk applied) led to entire 5 man teams playing the class in a noob-fest we veterans refer to as "Angry Red Lights".

Right now, Hawken is a noob-fest with the TOW missile. Because the game is still new, most folks are just rolling the the proverbial punches and playing through the insanity. But this won't last. Like War for Cybertron - and its successor, which the devs did something equally stupid with - I forsee Hawken will be a ghost town in very short order. Maybe 6 months; 9 at the outside. But I digress...

The problem with Hawken's model as it currently stands is that because of things like TOW, there is simply no reward for paying into the game. With no mode to play by which the story can be told (the entire point of playing a video game for a large portion of the population), no definitive advantages to paying monies into the game and no balance structure that supports higher-skill level play, this game will likely die a short and miserable death and become like so many other wonderfully created but poorly implemented games like it.

Here's some examples:

AvP(2010): A beautifully designed game with a unique twist on multiplayer, but... For Predator and Alien types, this means the "E" kill Conga-line (stealth killing, which is instant, going back as far as the eye can see; so much so that the first player killed this way would often find themselves the next member in the Conga line right after spawn and consequently, the next member killed immediately thereafter) while those playing Marines simply spam the pulse rifle to death, shredding anything that crosses their paths in mere seconds - thus garnering the highest KD/R's in the game.

War for Cybertron: No anti-cheat, no balance changes, no updates and no map or character packs. This game became a haven for cheese-balls, noobs and hackers alike with the few remaining players being those of us who ground our way through to skill-sets others would consider impossible and/or unattainable.

Fall of Cybertron: Again, no anti-cheat, all paid "DLC" is really just skin unlocks (visual stuff that has little, if any, impact on gameplay) and the developers admitting that the best weapon in the game also requires an incredibly high skill-set just to be effective and impeccable strategem added to said skills in order to be good... and then promptly nerfing it into oblivion and utter uselessness. Meanwhile, the weapons that did need massive changes were largely left unchanged and to this day remained over-powered. Which means it's still the most frequently used. Why try a sniper rifle that takes a full minute to charge when you can use the X-18 which fires 5X faster than every other weapon in the game, has 3/4 the range and can counter nearly any defensive measures. Stack on top of that giving the largest class the ability to run and dash at the same speed and a "shotgun" that revives the user's health while dealing damage to the victim; why would you ever play any other class_

BRINK: Another brilliantly planned and designed game that fell short of the mark. Balance changes the community begged for were dismally slow in being implemented, DLC releases should've been faster as the Single Player, Co-Op and Multi-Player were seamlessly integrated in terms of player progression and maps were poorly balanced in their layout. Gameplay was also heavily reliant on team-play and objective accomplishment based on class. Those who joined a server with a well put together team easily dominated the competition while more casual players found themselves dying every couple of minutes. And there was really only one mode of play.

Crysis: One of the most beautiful games ever designed, this game's multiplayer was incredibly unique... but it completely lacked focus on objectives. Unlike BRINK, which was too focused, Crysis lacked any real focus of anykind. Add that to the fact the the game required hardware that few could afford in order to play it on even high settings and that it premiered at a time when Broadband was still in its adolescence, Crysis was simply doomed to fail.

Crysis 2: More beautiful than it's predecessor - after the DX 11 and texture patches - and having greater focus on game play with clearer and more obtainable objectives, the problem with this game came like it has in nearly all of the others: Poorly and/or slowly implemented updates, little if any anti-cheat and poor choices in balance changes, this game died a quiet and unremarkable death. It also didn't help that the online store was broken and rarely worked. Some complained that the weapons purchased were broken beyond reason, but by the time this had happened, the game was already dead. They had nerfed the suit to being mostly useless, the SCAR was insanely broken (and everyone started with it) upgraded or earned weapons had little if any benefit to their use. Like its predecessor, it now exists solely as a very fun to play SP game used as benchmarking tool.

The thing to be noticed with each of these games is that developers considered that most people who paid just wanted new stuff to look at. They also seemed to think that, because plenty of people initially paid for the game that new people would continue to do so based on merits the game didn't posses and they had no intention of fixing. Most of these games are fine examples of things to not do. Things the developers at Hawken are blatantly ignoring. In fact, so far, Meteor has repeated nearly every one of these mistakes; it has been pointed out by the community and continually ignored, with the developers obviously thinking the status quo will be sufficient to keep the flow going. I've posted this warning more than once and this will be the very last time I do so. I've been gaming since the '80's and have accurately predicted the deaths of each of these games in turn and posted arguments to the developers only to be ignored. Funny how my predictions came true, isn't it_ Disregard at your own risk, Meteor.

Let's review Hawken's problems thus far:
  • TOW comes on the starting mechs for every player, both free and paid. TOW is both powerful, has a very low risk behind it's use, requires very little skill to use effectively and it benefits greatly from the perks/skill points that can be unlocked naturally through leveling. This makes it the Swiss Army knife of the game. A giant, explosive, fire and forget, infinite ranged swiss army knife. How can this possibly be good_
  • Weapons like Slug Rifle, Sabot Rifle, HEAT Cannon and Grenade launcher in order to be used effectively have a lower Reward/Risk ratio than the initial loadout, making them stupid choices by comparison.
  • All paid for content must be paid for more than once if players desire to play more than one class, which currently, there is no need to do other than blind curiosity which will quickly dry up as more players post publicly.
  • There's no distinct benefit to paying for any content, ever. The fallacy of all content being unlockable for free suggests that developers don't need money to live. A blatant lie. It also suggests there should be no advantage to paying into a game aside from making your mech visually different - something the paying player would never see outside of the garage.
  • There's no cheat protection. As the game grows, this will become a very large problem, very quickly.
  • The game isn't friendly to new players as there are more advantages to never paying a dime into the game as opposed to paying into it; but simply grinding away like a madman until you have enough skill points to class out your tree to your play style. While including TOW somewhat alleviates this, it also feeds into the problem: the game gets very boring, very quickly because everyone is using the same exact outfit and tactic.
Suggestions for fixing TOW, pick 2:
  • Give it a maximum effective range. Either it auto explodes after X distance or make it clatter harmlessly to the ground.
  • Cut the splash damage to 1/3 of its current value.
  • Take away the ability to manually detonate it.
  • User splash back damage for being too close when it explodes should be doubled. It should punish players for using it like a melee (as is the current most common use).
To put it succinctly: Most people who pay money for a game - while others do not - will rightfully and correctly desire advantages that free players simply don't or can't have. Doing anything less only serves to alienate the populous who actually can and will pay for the game and its content. This, of course, doesn't mean that paying players should be offered weapons that will dominate the free competition so completely that it drives them away from playing the game. But under no circumstances should free players receive top tier weapon like TOW from the outset of the game either. This is blatantly wrong, short-sighted and stupid and this type of craziness will result in the death of Hawken before it gets to really live. If anything, such a weapon should be an unlockable for paying players. Same goes for the Seeker missile for the Rocketeer.

It was gratifying to rejoin Hawken after nearly a year and see almost every single gripe above addressed. On that note, I will be a troll just this once (because I've earned it):

https://www.youtube....OMk5GWvlks#t=50

Edited by LordofNosgoth, February 02 2014 - 03:07 AM.

"There is no true genius without a tincture of madness." - Aristotle
"Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results; that is the definition of insanity." - Albert Einstein
"If everyone is thinking alike, then someone isn't thinking." General George Patton
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle
"Only two things are infinite: The universe and stupidity... and I'm not sure about the former." - Albert Einstein

#58 flarespeed

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Posted February 04 2014 - 07:56 PM

View PostLordofNosgoth, on January 01 2013 - 07:09 PM, said:

View PostPursang, on January 01 2013 - 05:34 AM, said:

Yeah! Great idea! Let's give paying players a tangible, in-game advantage over non-paying players! Nothing can go wrong with this idea!

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The moment this game goes pay-to-win is the moment I stop playing it.

The whole problem with everything you just said is this:

In all other F2P games, you can bypass the grind (to a greater or lesser degree) with money. Here, you can do nothing of the sort. So I present this simple logic so that you may understand the fallacious nature of your statement:

If there is no advantage to be gained from paying, there is no reason to pay.
If there is no reason to pay, most people simply won't pay. <- This is human nature. Take a psychology class or ten; you'll learn this.
If the majority of people play, but do not pay, there is no tangible returns on the investments made by the developers or their investors.
If there are no tangible returns, then there is no money to pay the ever-renewing costs of support.
If there are no monies for support, it dies.
If support dries up, players get angry.
If players get angry over a continued lack of support, they quit playing.
If players quit playing, the game dies.

Logic: +1
You: 0

Winner_: Logic.
When games become pay-to-win, the game moves into the hands of the wealthy few. devs of free-to-play games have most likely gone through this on the shorter end of the stick, and decided that they wanted to make a game that everyone can enjoy.




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