57 replies to this topic

[Cyclonus]

LordofNosgoth, on January 01 2013 - 12:44 AM, said:

Mewvg, on January 01 2013 - 12:30 AM, said:

Its just a noob tube, let the game develop and you'll see players getting good enough to use the other weapons to greater effect.

I've also heard the bullsugar statements claiming it was possible to become effective with SS.

There was one guy who was a great ss and top the score boards with ease in this one game... But I forgot his name, dang he was a awesome ss.

Edited by Cyclonus, January 01 2013 - 08:29 PM.

[Steakhouse]

LordofNosgoth, on January 01 2013 - 07:09 PM, said:

In all other F2P games, you can bypass the grind (to a greater or lesser degree) with money. Here, you can do nothing of the sort. So I present this simple logic so that you may understand the fallacious nature of your statement:

Logic: +1
You: 0

Winner_: Logic.

There's a problem with everything you said there, too. You're assuming that players in Hawken can achieve a dramatic benefit in grinding for EXP and in-game credits.

That's not the case. As people have been saying repeatedly, the bonuses granted by levels are meager, and a player with a Level 1 mech can still kick players with maxed-level mechs to the curb. Hawken is currently not a game where gear overrides skill.

Right now, all the mechs and gear available in Hawken are "sidegrades." They have their own advantages and disadvantages, which better suit the playstyle of one player or another. And yes, the CR-T Recruit and its TOW Rocket fit right into this equation, as that Extra Credits video explains.

[Mewvg]

LordofNosgoth, on January 01 2013 - 07:09 PM, said:

The whole problem with everything you just said is this:

In all other F2P games, you can bypass the grind (to a greater or lesser degree) with money. Here, you can do nothing of the sort. So I present this simple logic so that you may understand the fallacious nature of your statement:

If there is no advantage to be gained from paying, there is no reason to pay.
If there is no reason to pay, most people simply won't pay. <- This is human nature. Take a psychology class or ten; you'll learn this.
If the majority of people play, but do not pay, there is no tangible returns on the investments made by the developers or their investors.
If there are no tangible returns, then there is no money to pay the ever-renewing costs of support.
If there are no monies for support, it dies.
If support dries up, players get angry.
If players get angry over a continued lack of support, they quit playing.
If players quit playing, the game dies.

Logic: +1
You: 0

Winner_: Logic.

Your logic is flawed... plenty of people buy cosmetics in F2P games, and ads on the forum or in the game itself (pop-up after you close the game like Nexon does, old billboards in these ruined towns...) can generate money for the devs as well. Premium content like you describe would ruin the game.

And FYI, there's already premium content to speed up grinding, they're called XP and Hawken point buffs/perks. You buy them with real money. So please stop spouting off BS.

Edited by Mewvg, January 01 2013 - 07:52 PM.

[LordofNosgoth]

Mewvg, on January 01 2013 - 07:52 PM, said:

Your logic is flawed... plenty of people buy cosmetics in F2P games, and ads on the forum or in the game itself (pop-up after you close the game like Nexon does, old billboards in these ruined towns...) can generate money for the devs as well. Premium content like you describe would ruin the game.

And FYI, there's already premium content to speed up grinding, they're called XP and Hawken point buffs/perks. You buy them with real money. So please stop spouting off BS.

Truth: There are very few successful F2P games that are generally considered "alive". We'll review the top 2:

Team Fortress 2: This one shouldn't even be considered, but we will for our purposes today.

1) While most purchasable items are, indeed, merely cosmetic; there are quite a few other items that can - or could - be purchased for real world money. While each of these items offered a significant advantage (like the ever popular "Jarate") the advantages they offered weren't so overwhelming that it changed the game. Hence there were - and are - direct benefits to paying.

2) The game started off as a purchased game and remained that way for several years before going free to play. It only went F2P after it became clear that the game's popularity was waning and no new players were willing to join due to the cost of the game.

3) Valve was - and is - only able to keep this game rolling under it's current momentum due to the incredible amounts of money they make via the Steam platform (which according to Forbes estimates, accounts for 55% of all games sold, period; this a $5.5 Billion a year industry; so that's a lot of cash) and the fact that the vast majority of servers are paid for by the community.

League of Legends: I wasn't a participant of this game during its initial release, so I can't comment of what was or wasn't paid for at the time of release.

1) Most Champions, Items, Runes and more can all be purchased with Riot Points (which are garnered by spending real world money). While this doesn't mean that anyone can hop in with a large bank account and start whaling away on the veteran members, it does mean that some of the grind is eliminated so that players can be more concentrated on having fun instead of being frustrated with pointless and endless grind. But players who don't care to pay can feel free to spend the extra hours grinding away like madmen. This also allows greater options for customization.

Let's review some of the things that can be purchased with real world money:

• Champions - Instead of having all the champions unlocked, you will start with 10 champions temporarily unlocked known as the champion rotation, with options to unlock more using Influence Points or Riot Points.
  
• Skins - You can unlock different appearances for Champions using Riot Points.
  
• Runes - You will be able to purchase runes with Influence Points. Runes give you stat bonuses.
  
• Boosts - You can unlock a limited time boost to your Influence Points or experience points using Riot Points.

2) The vast majority of servers - like most successful MP games - are paid for by the community.

3) Items - paid for or not - are the property of the player, not the champion and thus can be reassigned (or were last I checked; LoL isn't really my type of game) or used in congress with a different champion.


By Contrast, How Hawken Currently Works:

• Certain internals and most mech parts and paint jobs can be purchased with "Meteor Points" which are also garnered with real world money.
  
• Internals and other purchased items - all other purchased items - are NOT the property of the player, but rather, they are locked to the mech for which they were purchased and thus are NOT transferrable.
  
• While experience boosters can be purchased using Meteor Points - like LoL - all other weapons/items/internals are unlockable via grinding only.
  
• Stats can only be increased by endless grinding. In the first 2 CBE's, this wasn't too bad as certain levels would unlock additional tech points, which helped facilitate an easier transition throughout the leveling process. This is no longer the case. Players who are willing to grind for countless hours are rewarded while new players - paid or not - are at a severe disadvantage.
  
• While many might argue this point, it remains nonetheless true, as most veteran players from both Alpha and Beta stages have pointed out the very same flaw: New players - paid or free - only get one mech, there is no choice in the matter. However, this mech has weapons that are insanely broken from the outset. TOW is arguably the best weapon in the game and can't be changed out (no secondary can, which is stupid). Assault Rifle has one of the best DPS ratios in the game, very little spread and no effective maximum range.
  
• The opening mech also has the best Special Ability in the game, allowing the player to instantly reduce their heating gauge to Zero. Special Abilities - like weapons, internals and paint jobs - are locked to the mech and not to the player using it. Unlike the other special abilities, this one has no downside. At all. This, of course, makes it broken. Broken = OP.
  
• You can unlock new mechs with Hawken points or Meteor points, true; but since players don't level (mechs do) and internals/weapons are locked to specific chassis, this severely limits both customization and gameplay.
  
• "Premium buffs" at the moment are only to buff Hawken points (which is good) and XP (which is bad, since Mechs level and not the player/pilot using them).
  
• The only "ads" I've seen in either the forums or the game load screen have been ads for the developers themselves. So that we understand: This generates no additional revenue.

​Since LoL, which was mentioned in this very thread as an example against my argument, has instituted the very same system I have suggested, you invalidate your own arguments with your short-sightedness and your need to argue against ever paying into a game - or more specifically - this game.

Anecdotal "evidence" of Lv 1 players easily trampling Lv 20+ players does not an effective argument make. Even if you're are one of the few who could accomplish this, you are - what_ - 1 in 10,000_ How very lovely for you. Meanwhile, back in the real world...

Hawken grinding does allow for benefits no one seems to want to acknowledge: The more levels you've gained, the more perk/skill points you have to spend on the mech in question. These allow players to upgrade fire rates, armor ratings, speed, fuel regeneration, damage dealt by weapons and repair rates. Since most of these can be upgraded 2 or even 3 times per, arguments that they don't eventually garner an incredible advantage are thus nullified. These aren't "side-grades"; they're clearly upgrades. I'd argue with more logic, but you're clearly incapable of seeing things from an objective point of view.

As it stands, there is no benefit into ever paying dime #1 into this game; unless one counts the need to satisfy one's own curiosity.

Further, and more to the point, as the current Status Quo stands, gameplay becomes very stagnant very quickly. My earlier examples of dead games weren't in the F2P vein, true, but rather examples of games whose flaws I loudly and repeatedly voiced, whose deaths I predicted if steps weren't taken to correct them and ones that consequently died with the remaining community members voicing - all too late - the very same complaints I'd voiced since the very beginning as the reason for the game's death and the developers belatedly admitting they should've listened when prior members like myself had voiced said observations early in the game's life cycle.

If you can't post logical and constructive arguments for your belief that I am somehow wrong other than cute little opinions like "...stop spouting off BS..." when anyone reviewing the game's current atmosphere from an objective view point can easily see the same, perhaps you'd be better served posting elsewhere.

@ Steakhouse: You clearly did not watch the whole video, nor did you see the section about the FOO strategy. Give new players something so easy to use and so effective that working twice as hard to earn a higher skill set for less than half the amount of gain for said effort, results in players just chunking away with what they currently have and never feeling the need to try any harder or get any better. This stagnates gameplay very quickly. It also results in those players (who are, by far, the majority) never earning the needed skills in order to progress onwards to more effective strategies and/or alternative gameplay styles. This, consequently, results in said players getting frustrated and quitting when they hit the proverbial brick wall. Which, like gameplay stagnation, kills the community at large.

Edited by LordofNosgoth, January 02 2013 - 12:10 AM.

[Steakhouse]

LordofNosgoth, on January 02 2013 - 12:06 AM, said:

@ Steakhouse: You clearly did not watch the whole video, nor did you see the section about the FOO strategy. Give new players something so easy to use and so effective that working twice as hard to earn a higher skill set for less than half the amount of gain for said effort, results in players just chunking away with what they currently have and never feeling the need to try any harder or get any better. This stagnates gameplay very quickly. It also results in those players (who are, by far, the majority) never earning the needed skills in order to progress onwards to more effective strategies and/or alternative gameplay styles. This, consequently, results in said players getting frustrated and quitting when they hit the proverbial brick wall. Which, like gameplay stagnation, kills the community at large.

I clearly didn't, hmm_ Here's another Extra Credits video on this very topic:



And a transcript of a part I feel speaks to what you claim is fallacy:

"Next, never. Sell. Power. This is seriously Microtrans 101, but we still seem to have this temptation to try to squeeze the maximum amount of money out of our players by selling them things which alter the balance of gameplay. This is the absolute quickest way to make players feel like you're taking advantage of them. Because selling power really does force players to pay-to-play. After all, when you're balancing your game, which players are you going to cater to_ The people who are monetizing, or the people who aren't_

What you want to sell, is convenience. Things like extra bank space, and character loadout save slots. Those are great. They're utterly unnessecary, and at first every player feels like the default amount is going to be plenty. But sooner or later, anybody who's dedicated to the game is gonna find it totally worth a few dollars to have some of those extra features."

Edited by Steakhouse, January 02 2013 - 12:44 AM.

[Pursang]

LordofNosgoth, on January 01 2013 - 07:09 PM, said:

The whole problem with everything you just said is this:

In all other F2P games, you can bypass the grind (to a greater or lesser degree) with money. Here, you can do nothing of the sort. So I present this simple logic so that you may understand the fallacious nature of your statement:

If there is no advantage to be gained from paying, there is no reason to pay.
If there is no reason to pay, most people simply won't pay. <- This is human nature. Take a psychology class or ten; you'll learn this.
If the majority of people play, but do not pay, there is no tangible returns on the investments made by the developers or their investors.
If there are no tangible returns, then there is no money to pay the ever-renewing costs of support.
If there are no monies for support, it dies.
If support dries up, players get angry.
If players get angry over a continued lack of support, they quit playing.
If players quit playing, the game dies.

Logic: +1
You: 0

Winner_: Logic.

Oh how cute! You seem to have forgotten the fact that this game sells XP and HC boosts, helping people to lessen if not bypass the grind entirely, thus negating this self-indulgent tirade entirely.

Logic 1
You 0

[Mewvg]

LordofNosgoth, on January 02 2013 - 12:06 AM, said:

Truth: There are very few successful F2P games that are generally considered "alive".

If you don't like it, don't play. One less fuzzy bunny complaining means the community is better off. Go crawl back in your hole, troll, your logic is flawed, no matter how many walls of text you use to try and prove your invalid and moot point.

EDIT: I apologize if this offends anyone (other than the person it is pointed at), I'm a bit sick and tired of this whiny bs.

Edited by Mewvg, January 02 2013 - 01:59 AM.

[deusex2]

Why is this thread even alive yet_! Just stop posting and move on, people.

[Snacuum]

Why should people stop posting about this, I mean it even sounds like the OP was for F2P albeit a not very nice sounding one. Is everyone who ligitimately wants to play the game but wants to provide feedback about the consumer model be vilified_

[Guiotine]

LordofNosgoth, on January 02 2013 - 12:06 AM, said:

• Certain internals and most mech parts and paint jobs can be purchased with "Meteor Points" which are also garnered with real world money.
  
• While experience boosters can be purchased using Meteor Points - like LoL - all other weapons/items/internals are unlockable via grinding only.

"certain internals"_ "weapons, items, internals grinding only"_ Last I checked, there was nothing you couldn't buy with MC. If you want to skip the grind, pay for it.

Edited by Guiotine, January 02 2013 - 04:14 AM.

[Cypherhalo]

LordofNosgoth, on December 31 2012 - 11:08 PM, said:

Let's review Hawken's problems thus far:

• TOW comes on the starting mechs for every player, both free and paid. TOW is both powerful, has a very low risk behind it's use, requires very little skill to use effectively and it benefits greatly from the perks/skill points that can be unlocked naturally through leveling. This makes it the Swiss Army knife of the game. A giant, explosive, fire and forget, infinite ranged swiss army knife. How can this possibly be good_
  
• Weapons like Slug Rifle, Sabot Rifle, HEAT Cannon and Grenade launcher in order to be used effectively have a lower Reward/Risk ratio than the initial loadout, making them stupid choices by comparison.
  
• All paid for content must be paid for more than once if players desire to play more than one class, which currently, there is no need to do other than blind curiosity which will quickly dry up as more players post publicly.
  
• There's no distinct benefit to paying for any content, ever. The fallacy of all content being unlockable for free suggests that developers don't need money to live. A blatant lie. It also suggests there should be no advantage to paying into a game aside from making your mech visually different - something the paying player would never see outside of the garage.
  
• There's no cheat protection. As the game grows, this will become a very large problem, very quickly.
  
• The game isn't friendly to new players as there are more advantages to never paying a dime into the game as opposed to paying into it; but simply grinding away like a madman until you have enough skill points to class out your tree to your play style. While including TOW somewhat alleviates this, it also feeds into the problem: the game gets very boring, very quickly because everyone is using the same exact outfit and tactic.

Suggestions for fixing TOW, pick 2:

• Give it a maximum effective range. Either it auto explodes after X distance or make it clatter harmlessly to the ground.
  
• Cut the splash damage to 1/3 of its current value.
  
• Take away the ability to manually detonate it.
  
• User splash back damage for being too close when it explodes should be doubled. It should punish players for using it like a melee (as is the current most common use).

To put it succinctly: Most people who pay money for a game - while others do not - will rightfully and correctly desire advantages that free players simply don't or can't have. Doing anything less only serves to alienate the populous who actually can and will pay for the game and its content. This, of course, doesn't mean that paying players should be offered weapons that will dominate the free competition so completely that it drives them away from playing the game. But under no circumstances should free players receive top tier weapon like TOW from the outset of the game either. This is blatantly wrong, short-sighted and stupid and this type of craziness will result in the death of Hawken before it gets to really live. If anything, such a weapon should be an unlockable for paying players. Same goes for the Seeker missile for the Rocketeer.

TL;DR

Responding just to that, I have to disagree.  There's no good reason to give paying players an advantage.  That would kill this game faster then anything and turn off new players when they realize all the good toys are behind a paywall.  Fact is, a skilled player is still going to dominate, no matter how OP you think the TOW is.  I'm not sure it's OP at all.  

One of the reasons I dropped money on this game was the fact that it does F2P right.  You can pay to speed up your progress (I bought a mech rather then grinded for it) or for cosmetic things (I bought the laser repair droid).  If the good toys were behind a paywall I would feel like I had to pay.  This is the reason why I've dropped money on League of Legends.  I just had so much fun with the game that I decided I'd rather pay for a few champs rather then grind for them, and I got a few skins for my fave champs.  

This game is fun specifically because there are no barriers to being a free player.  If you're having fun, you will probably drop some money just as a show of support to the devs.  If you're having fun and playing day after day, you'll be more tempted to buy that shiny coat of paint or do some customizing for your favorite mech.  The attitude I'm seeing from the OP just strikes me as elitist and completely the wrong way for Hawken to go.  Just because you either have or are willing to spend money, I don't see how that means you deserve an advantage over other people.

[nullface]

Why do you people even argue with this guy...

[deusex2]

Snacuum, on January 02 2013 - 04:04 AM, said:

Why should people stop posting about this, I mean it even sounds like the OP was for F2P albeit a not very nice sounding one. Is everyone who ligitimately wants to play the game but wants to provide feedback about the consumer model be vilified_

No, what he's preachig about how useful pay2win is for Hawken and then he tries to justify it with some twisted logic I don't even care to comment on, because every sane person with shreds of common sense can see just how messed up is it.

In fact, the more this drags on the more I'm inclined to believe that the OP is simply trolling people, so the shorter this thread lives the better.

[marshalade]

Redacted. I spoke without actually reading the post. Once I did, I realized that I was mistaken and OP was just blathering. Nothing to see here.

Edited by marshalade, January 02 2013 - 03:57 PM.

[Woobins]

[LordofNosgoth]

Quote

OH NOES! HE SAID PAYING MUST HAZ ADVANTAGE! DIS MENS PAY2WIN! SPEW HATEZ FASTEST! TRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Try actually reading any of my posts instead of hurling poo like howler monkeys.

I even posted the most successful F2P game of all time and how it works compared to Hawken.

And still you troll and show your ignorance.

So, let's take toll:

Anyone who's spend over $50 on this game in a single sitting (or multiples), since that's the average cost for a new game to offset the initial investement, post images of your reciept(s) here. (Please edit any personal, detrimental info out). Reach over 1,000 and you will convince me that I'm wrong and I will leave forever.

But that's the whole point, isn't it_ It's the whole reason you're all so angry. I bring valid points to the table, so rather than use your brains, read the posts - which were verbose enough that you didn't need to divine any intent - and actually respond with intelligence, you troll and rage.

But go ahead, prove me wrong...

[LordofNosgoth]

Guiotine, on January 02 2013 - 04:14 AM, said:

"certain internals"_ "weapons, items, internals grinding only"_ Last I checked, there was nothing you couldn't buy with MC. If you want to skip the grind, pay for it.

The larger point you keep missing is: There's nothing there's nothing worth buying  with Meteor points.

[LordofNosgoth]

Steakhouse, on January 02 2013 - 12:40 AM, said:

LordofNosgoth, on January 02 2013 - 12:06 AM, said:

@ Steakhouse: You clearly did not watch the whole video, nor did you see the section about the FOO strategy. Give new players something so easy to use and so effective that working twice as hard to earn a higher skill set for less than half the amount of gain for said effort, results in players just chunking away with what they currently have and never feeling the need to try any harder or get any better. This stagnates gameplay very quickly. It also results in those players (who are, by far, the majority) never earning the needed skills in order to progress onwards to more effective strategies and/or alternative gameplay styles. This, consequently, results in said players getting frustrated and quitting when they hit the proverbial brick wall. Which, like gameplay stagnation, kills the community at large.

I clearly didn't, hmm_ Here's another Extra Credits video on this very topic:



And a transcript of a part I feel speaks to what you claim is fallacy:

"Next, never. Sell. Power. This is seriously Microtrans 101, but we still seem to have this temptation to try to squeeze the maximum amount of money out of our players by selling them things which alter the balance of gameplay. This is the absolute quickest way to make players feel like you're taking advantage of them. Because selling power really does force players to pay-to-play. After all, when you're balancing your game, which players are you going to cater to_ The people who are monetizing, or the people who aren't_

What you want to sell, is convenience. Things like extra bank space, and character loadout save slots. Those are great. They're utterly unnessecary, and at first every player feels like the default amount is going to be plenty. But sooner or later, anybody who's dedicated to the game is gonna find it totally worth a few dollars to have some of those extra features."

Quote

This, of course, doesn't mean that paying players should be offered weapons that will dominate the free competition so completely that it drives them away from playing the game.

1) You read so very little of what was posted that you missed the entire point.

2) Your own video brings up more points to validate my argument than it does anything to play it down. Perhaps you should re-watch it.

[Guiotine]

LordofNosgoth, on January 02 2013 - 10:42 AM, said:

Guiotine, on January 02 2013 - 04:14 AM, said:

"certain internals"_ "weapons, items, internals grinding only"_ Last I checked, there was nothing you couldn't buy with MC. If you want to skip the grind, pay for it.

The larger point you keep missing is: There's nothing there's nothing worth buying  with Meteor points.

Funny. I thought there was when I dropped $30....maybe it's just you_

[Karaipantsu]

LordofNosgoth, on January 02 2013 - 10:42 AM, said:

The larger point you keep missing is: There's nothing there's nothing worth buying  with Meteor points.

That's kind of the point.  The Grind2Win model rather than the Pay2Win necessitates that anything purchasable with only real money credits (Meteor points, in this case) is cosmetic in nature.  There's certainly things worth buying with MC if you want to skip the grind, but there's nothing you HAVE to buy.

LordofNosgoth, on January 02 2013 - 10:39 AM, said:

Anyone who's spend over $50 on this game in a single sitting (or multiples), since that's the average cost for a new game to offset the initial investement, post images of your reciept(s) here. (Please edit any personal, detrimental info out). Reach over 1,000 and you will convince me that I'm wrong and I will leave forever.

I bought into the Vanguard initiative at the silver level (35 bucks, I believe, which gets you $40 worth of MC, Cupcake, and a skin), and it netted me enough to purchase nearly everything for every mech I actually want to play, which is Bruiser, Zerker, Sharpshooter, and Fred, and I still had enough left over to buy another pair of mechs, if I wanted to.  So, for 40 bucks, you could basically fully kit out 4 mechs with plenty of points left over.

That's plenty of content for even less than the lower limit you specified.  Also, who the hell is going to spend 1000 bucks on a game_  I think someone did the math earlier, and the absolute most you could spend on this game's cosmetic and gameplay content without boosters or HC was something like $420.

Edited by Karaipantsu, January 02 2013 - 11:21 AM.