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Guiotine's thread on power and how it impacts gaming


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#1 Guiotine

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Posted July 02 2013 - 03:11 PM

WARNING: SUPER LONG POST AHEAD

So I first started thinking about this when I heard the phrase “toy guns or paper mechs” in terms of balancing, because really it accurately sums up the positions of the high TTK/low TTK advocates respectively, and is used as the counterarguments for the opposite side. Low TTK advocates say they want guns to feel threatening; they don’t want Nerf dart guns attached to these giant, futuristic mechs. High TTK advocates do not want the heavily armored mechanical monstrosities to be made out of tissue paper. Both of these are good points, and reading this struck a thought in me, “where is the middle ground_”

That is why I started thinking about what power is, and what elements define it. After ordering my thoughts, I wanted to present it here (as my 2,000th post :P) to hopefully allow players to have a frame of reference as to what makes up power, and why it matters. I should mention that, while I will be relating this to Hawken, I am writing this as a general theory for games. Whether it is a multiplayer or single-player game, or whether it is an MMO, MOBA, FPS, RPG, or any other game, I intend this to be a general purpose discussion. As such, I will be using examples from a lot of games. Now, before I could get too deeply into these thoughts, I needed to define what I thought power is.

I think of power as “the player’s ability to influence the outcome of a battle, the options to influence the battle, as well as giving the player the feeling of having some influence in that battle.” These are all very similar, but very, very different. I will mostly be focusing on how the player feels, because if a player feels like they were powerful, they will feel like they are having fun. After all, no one likes taking part in something they feel like they have no control of.

Now, power (especially the feeling of it) is very subjective, and giving the player the feeling of being powerful, while not being OP, requires a delicate balance of several factors.
  • Animation – from screen shake to projectile speed to enemy recoil to “wind up”. Provides weight.

  • Sound – Sounds need to reinforce the weight, tied with animation

  • Cost – More Mana/heat/ammo, a secondary resource

  • Limitations – Tied with cost, but different. Refers to the limits of a character’s power. How much mana they have, how easy is it to regenerate the secondary resource_ How long is the cast time_ How long are the Cooldowns_

  • Perceived damage – A trap usually set for the unskilled and the ignorant, but even skilled and experienced players can fall for it, this can create a feeling that a weapon is either weaker or stronger than it is, creating disappointment either way. This usually negatively affects a player’s feeling of power, even if the player believes the weapon is stronger than it is.

  • Actual damage – Fairly obvious. Moves can be strong, but don’t have to one shot everything.

  • Utility – a character can be powerful without having to do damage, or an attack can do less direct damage than other attacks, but still be more powerful thanks to utility.
It is necessary in games to give players a sense that their attacks mean something – even more so in games where your character is supposed to be super powerful. Attacks can be fast or slow, weak or strong, but if the 7 points above do not match, it takes away from the experience. Shooters, in my experience, usually do this well.

Animation: If a move is powerful, it needs to look powerful… but not too powerful. The animation is a major contributor to how the attack feels. A fireball spell should be a fireball, not a fire pebble. There needs to be fluidity between every part of the animation, from the “cast” to the “launch/travel” to the “arrival”. Slow attacks need weight behind them to feel powerful, fast attacks can seem weak individually, but need to feel strong when combined. Speed is all relative to the individual game.


Take WoW’s mage for example. The basic fireball spell has a good cast animation, with the entire character’s body going into a cast pose. The launch animation is good too, when the spell is released, it has an obvious effect, it’s big and looks deadly, but it falls flat at the arrival animation, since it kind of just fizzles out of existence. In shooters, this is slightly different, but it still has all three parts. In a shooter, the casting animation is much shorter, but it is still there, in the form of visual weapon recoil (this does not mean the mechanic of recoil, although it is often implemented alongside it). In this case, think of the TOW, it fires, has a huge and obvious recoil visual effect, but does not change your aim when it is used. Next comes the launch animation, although in a shooter it is better to focus on the travel aspect, since cast and launch typically happen at the same time. Continuing with the TOW example, the missile fires, and thanks to a relatively recent update (meaning months ago :P), is much more obvious during the travel animation. The bright glare now caused by the missile is a giant “get out of my way, or I’ll ruin your day” sign to enemies. It also has a satisfying arrival animation, when it causes a large explosion that deals decent damage.

edit: I feel at this point I should mention the Hack-n'-Slash genre here, because this is where it is king. Large, flashy combos and attacks are the name of the game -- or rather, the genre. Whether the game is Devil May Cry, Deadpool, God of War, or Darksiders, the gameplay revolves around flashy and awesome combos. The animations for attacks in these games are designed to be brutal, flashy, and fun to watch. However that's all the genre has going for it, imo. Anyway, when it comes to animations for the attacks, the Hack-n'-slash genre is arguably king of it.

Sound: Very closely tied with animation. Sound reinforces the weight behind attacks. Same as animation, the cast, launch, and arrival sounds all need to match with the animation. Animation creates the weight, sound reinforces it. Think of how the familiar “thump” of a grenade launcher in a shooter helps to convey the force used to pump out the explosive. For those players around, remember the Rev-GL sound before Operation: Frostburn_ It was similar to the GL’s sound, and hearing a lot of those “thumps” in quick succession really used to freak people out. Of course, back then the Gren was very strong, with the Stunlock bug and Rev-GL damage, it was a very dangerous mech. However, the sound helped to convey that power before you even saw the Gren. You heard that and you knew it would be a tough fight. The new Rev-GL sound doesn’t do as good of a job to convey the power of the weapon, it makes the weapon feel weaker than the old sound did, since instead of a loud, deep “thump”, we are getting a more quiet, high pitched “Pew”.

Cost: cost is a great indicator of an attack’s power. It is safe to say that the more the attack costs, the more powerful it will be in comparison to weaker attacks. However, if the move’s power does not match up with the cost, it becomes either impractical to use (low power/cost ratio) or it dominates every other choice, causing it to lose weight as a feeling of being powerful, since that is the only attack worth using (high power/cost ratio).


For example, in Final Fantasy IV, at one point you will learn the spell “meteor”. This is one of the strongest black magic spells in the game and costs 99 MP (even though the animation for it is better for a spell called “meteorites”, imo). When you first get it, you can use it about 6-8 times (depending on the version, since it's learned at different levels) before not having enough MP to use it. On the other hand, you can take advantage of an enemy’s elemental weakness, still do massive damage, and at 1/3 the cost using the Blizzaga, Firaga, or Thundaga spells. The power isn’t always as good as meteor, but the cost effectiveness of the spells means they are a decent option, while still retaining the feeling of power.

This gets more complex with the addition of a secondary resource. Take WoW as an example, between Cataclysm and MOP they have given almost every class a secondary resource (some had them earlier, like Rouges or DK’s), and that resource must be taken into consideration along with your primary resource.

Limitations: The limits placed on the character are important as well. The feeling of something being powerful also stems, at least in part, from how often/how little the player can use it. Cost falls under this, but is distinct enough that it deserves its own category. It is more than just cost, though. This also includes cooldowns/clip size/reload time/resource regeneration, not simply the cost of whatever resource system the game uses. More powerful attacks/weapons/spells typically require more time in between successive attacks.


For example, in COD, a rocket launcher takes more time to reload then an assault rifle. Shotguns (typically) require a pump between shots, and still have a longer reload time than an assault rifle. There are automatic shotguns, but they are weaker and have a faster reload time. Another good example is Infamous, where you have this super powerful lightning-based badass who has a plethora of devastating attacks at his disposal. However if you are not careful with managing these attacks, you can easily run out of electricity and find yourself powerless against a group of enemies. That is why you always need to keep track of nearby sources of electricity, so you don’t run out at a crucial time. In fact, several times over the course of the game you are forced to go into zones with no power, and that is truly a dangerous place, since mismanagement of your abilities could very well lead to your death. That is when you as a player feel weakened, and that is one of the few times that it is a good thing. Times when you are weak make times when you are strong make you feel even stronger, and that creates a good experience.

Percieved damage: Naturally all of the above traits need to match up with how much damage the attack does – or at least appears to do. In Hawken, watching a few bars of an enemy’s health drop off is always satisfying, and we automatically start building a frame of reference for the power of each weapon in our minds depending on how many bars are lost when firing, even if we don’t know the exact numbers. It allows us to compare the different weapons with each other in terms of perceived power. However, it is not a perfect reference, as there exist in Hawken many ways to mess with that perception. Dodging can make shots miss slightly (for example, when using the Flak), registering a hit but not getting the full power. Dodging can also take you to the edge of an explosive’s radius, causing a perception that the weapon is weaker because of feathering, even though it could do massive damage on a direct hit. The Bruiser ability mitigates the damage a little, as do the turret modes.


These ways of mitigating damage can create a feeling in players that the weapon is weak, when it is not. This makes the weapon less fun to use. Those players are usually surprised when they hear the weapon is actually very strong, like in the case of the Heat or EOC. Players who know how to use the weapons effectively, as well as theorycrafters, typically see less of this, as perceived damage usually only affects unskilled/unknowledgeable players. Once a player knows how strong it is, they usually stop attributing the perceived weakness to the weapon, and instead attribute it to player/opponent factors (outplayed/missed/etc.) Another example would be FF XIV, where the health bar of your target is displayed twice, one small bar above the enemy’s head, and one large bar at the top of the screen. Watching the large bar (and consequently what appears to be a larger amount of damage being dealt) is a lot more fun and empowering than watching the small bar, which makes it appear you do less damage.

Damage can also be overestimated due to outside factors. If you are not the only one damaging an enemy but do not realize it, it becomes all too easy to overestimate your weapon’s effectiveness. This can only lead to disappointment and a less fun experience when you find out it is actually not as strong as you thought.

Actual damage: The theorycrafter’s favorite toy, this is an obvious stat when it comes to talking about power. The above points mean nothing without this. However, a move with a bland animation, no sound, ridiculously high cost, low resource regeneration, low perceived damage, but high actual damage, is no fun to use. The damage needs to click with every other point made. When it comes to the actual balancing of this point, however, there is a small bit of wriggle room. For example, when the TOW damage and ROF (and indirectly Heat gen because of the higher ROF) was changed, many people didn’t like it…why_ It did the same overall damage as before, so why did people not like it_ Because it didn’t feel as powerful. Because it was spammy.


This is because the cost (heat gen) was higher, the limitation was lower (ROF), the perceived damage was lower, but the actual damage stayed about the same/similar. So in this trade, you have –3 and a + 0. By this I mean, three negative effects happened, and one neutral effect happened. This means that the TOW has the same effectiveness, but it does not feel as powerful. This is important to remember: the actual damage of a weapon may contribute to a feeling of power, but it is very easy to mess up.

DOT attacks often seem weak to players because of the nature of damage over time. This makes classes that use a lot of DOTs secretly very strong, as they are typically underused. Why_ Because the damage isn’t frontloaded. It isn’t immediate. The same thing happened with the TOW changes. Players see the TOW dealing less damage per shot, and because of that it is perceived as weaker than the old TOW, even though it will do the same/similar damage over a certain amount of time. However, it is true that speaking in pure damage, the new TOW does less damage per shot than the old one. It just attacks faster.

Utility: Finally. I initially wasn’t going to mention this, as I consider utility-based discussion more fitting in a support’s power discussion (a whole different beast), and I was focusing on power when it comes to damage dealers, but utility does have a place here, and is worth a mention. The utility of a weapon or a character does contribute to a feeling of power, even if it is weaker than other choices.


For example, when I’m playing COD (ugh), why would I use a grenade instead of a rocket launcher_ Both are explosives, but the grenade animation takes far longer to fire compared to the rocket, plus it is a slower projectile, and is harder to aim. The answer is simple: you can lob grenades over obstacles, or bounce them around walls/corners that a rocket could never do. This utility makes the grenade a situationally better choice than the easier to use rocket. It also makes you feel pretty good when you get a blind kill with one.

Often times in games, utility can help avoid damage or direct confrontation, or even allow a stealth/ambush approach. This is often done with poisons, mezzes, active camo, etc. It is utility that allows most damage dealing classes in RPGs to be squishier, as they often have ways outside of armor/defensive buffs to mitigate that…aside from killing them before they kill you. For example, in the Final Fantasy series, black mages (the damaging kind) often have status inflicting spells as well as damage dealing spells, since it gives them more utility in combat. Utility helps a player feel powerful while not frontloading damage all at once.

Well, that was long. Well yeah, of course. However, I’m not done yet. I have defined power, and I have given what elements I think make up that power, now how does this relate to the paper mechs/toy guns issue_ Well if you know the elements that define power, it then becomes easier to manipulate those elements to give satisfaction to most of either party. It also becomes easier to make suggestions based on these elements to help improve a player’s feeling of power in game. However, this is only one part of the game. I completely ignored counterplay, support, health, speed, and many other factors that contribute to a player’s enjoyment of the game. Power is not the only thing that contributes to fun, but it is a major element.


Remember, these are my thoughts, and mine alone. Some of you may not agree, and that’s fine. If you don’t feel free to explain why. I am actually very curious as to what other people’s thoughts are on this subject. Thanks for reading this far! :D

tl;dr: nope.

Edited by Guiotine, July 03 2013 - 11:36 AM.

ReachH said:

I dub thee, Guiotine, 'Coloxxen, the mech pokemon'

View PostAsianJoyKiller, on July 02 2013 - 03:18 PM, said:

This wall of text gets the AJK Seal of Approval.

#2 AsianJoyKiller

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Posted July 02 2013 - 03:18 PM

This wall of text gets the AJK Seal of Approval.

A good read.

Also congrats on 2000.

[HWK]HUGHES, on July 03 2013 - 11:07 PM, said:

AJK is right

The Sinful Infil HEAT Cannon Hustler, Cloaking and Smoking, C-Class Swagger, Ballin' n' Brawlin'


#3 Guiotine

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Posted July 02 2013 - 03:33 PM

View PostAsianJoyKiller, on July 02 2013 - 03:18 PM, said:

This wall of text gets the AJK Seal of Approval.

A good read.

Also congrats on 2000.

Thanks :D

Split up some of the text so that it would be a little easier to read.

Edited by Guiotine, July 02 2013 - 08:23 PM.

ReachH said:

I dub thee, Guiotine, 'Coloxxen, the mech pokemon'

View PostAsianJoyKiller, on July 02 2013 - 03:18 PM, said:

This wall of text gets the AJK Seal of Approval.

#4 AsianJoyKiller

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Posted July 02 2013 - 03:36 PM

View PostGuiotine, on July 02 2013 - 03:33 PM, said:

View PostAsianJoyKiller, on July 02 2013 - 03:18 PM, said:

This wall of text gets the AJK Seal of Approval.

A good read.

Also congrats on 2000.

Ty :D

Split up some of the text so that it would be a little easier to read.
I'm not giving you a better grade for taking up more space!
What are you going to do next, double space format it_

[HWK]HUGHES, on July 03 2013 - 11:07 PM, said:

AJK is right

The Sinful Infil HEAT Cannon Hustler, Cloaking and Smoking, C-Class Swagger, Ballin' n' Brawlin'


#5 Guiotine

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Posted July 02 2013 - 03:37 PM

View PostAsianJoyKiller, on July 02 2013 - 03:36 PM, said:

View PostGuiotine, on July 02 2013 - 03:33 PM, said:

View PostAsianJoyKiller, on July 02 2013 - 03:18 PM, said:

This wall of text gets the AJK Seal of Approval.

A good read.

Also congrats on 2000.

Ty :D

Split up some of the text so that it would be a little easier to read.
I'm not giving you a better grade for taking up more space!
What are you going to do next, double space format it_

I was thinking MLA format.

ReachH said:

I dub thee, Guiotine, 'Coloxxen, the mech pokemon'

View PostAsianJoyKiller, on July 02 2013 - 03:18 PM, said:

This wall of text gets the AJK Seal of Approval.

#6 Leonhardt

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Posted July 02 2013 - 07:13 PM

I gotta say this one took me a while. I started it earlier today then got distracted and came back only to get distracted yet again when my friend came over to chill out. Finally got a chance to sit down and read through this beast of a thread/post and I gotta say it was a good read.

Well done sir its well thought out with fluid reasoning.

Oh and contrats on 2000 ;)

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#7 ShadowWarg

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Posted July 02 2013 - 08:07 PM

View PostGuiotine, on July 02 2013 - 03:33 PM, said:

View PostAsianJoyKiller, on July 02 2013 - 03:18 PM, said:

This wall of text gets the AJK Seal of Approval.

A good read.

Also congrats on 2000.

Ty :D

Split up some of the text so that it would be a little easier to read.

WOW, you got AJK seal of approval! That's Fuzzy near impossible to get. Grats on your achievement.
akj_achievmentl.png
Image

Lol oops. For some reason I mixed up joy kill with kill joy.

Edited by ShadowWarg, July 02 2013 - 08:31 PM.


#8 Guiotine

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Posted July 02 2013 - 08:20 PM

View PostLeonhardt, on July 02 2013 - 07:13 PM, said:

I gotta say this one took me a while. I started it earlier today then got distracted and came back only to get distracted yet again when my friend came over to chill out. Finally got a chance to sit down and read through this beast of a thread/post and I gotta say it was a good read.

Well done sir its well thought out with fluid reasoning.

Oh and contrats on 2000 ;)

Yeah, it's something I had been thinking of for weeks, but lacked the will to write it. I saw my post count was getting close, so I figured why not :P

View PostShadowWarg, on July 02 2013 - 08:07 PM, said:

WOW, you got AKJ seal of approval! That's Fuzzy near impossible to get. Grats on your achievement.
Attachment akj_achievmentl.png

I was shocked. Pretty sure I should get MC or something for that. ;) Also, lol AKJ... he's AsianKillerJoy now, it seems :D

Edited by Guiotine, July 02 2013 - 08:21 PM.

ReachH said:

I dub thee, Guiotine, 'Coloxxen, the mech pokemon'

View PostAsianJoyKiller, on July 02 2013 - 03:18 PM, said:

This wall of text gets the AJK Seal of Approval.

#9 Scroticus42

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Posted July 02 2013 - 08:58 PM

Well I took the time to read it so I should probably post to justify that time investment.  I have no issue with anything you said.  I think that for me the emphasis on CQC hurts my percieved power and thus my enjoyment of the game because I am one of those "unskilled players" that really wants more even dodge cooldowns for all mechs.  If your gonna have even firepower, and want more balance, and yet the way the game is played with the weapons we have and the way the maps often force people into peek-a-boo CQC combat, to me it only seems logical to also even out dodge cooldowns if balance is to be achieved.  Granted I think implementing a more realistic damage model that affects performance of mechs is a far better way to go, and then would not necessitate evened out dodge cooldowns.  Because then I could slow down an A mech by blowing out its knee joint, and an A mech could get a critical hit on me of sorts by hitting me in the joint that connects the turret shields to the torso or something to whittle down my armor on my C mech (and hey everyone wants this game to be about "skill" right so lets get away from it being about how big your hitbox is and how fast you move, because neither of those elements have anything to do with skill, but play arguably the some of the largest roles in an encounter IMO).

I feel that most peoples analysis of damage and weapon effectiveness be it percieved or actual is often quite flawed because they think of it in terms of a vacuum or standing still or at least landing every shot, meaning that dodge cooldown and speed are not being weighted properly.  Power is reduced IMO with any weapon you want to examine because its effectiveness is a bit worse for the style you often have to play.  Why_  Because in practice hitting an A-mech with it is harder when they can dodge in and out of cover faster than you, so you aren't likely to land successive hits with any weapon as fast as it can reload, while they can peek-a-aboo and hit you way more frequently, and since you can't dodge or move as fast and a bigger hitbox, you WILL get hit more often with weapons that are just as strong as yours with a healthpool that doesn't quite compensate for that.  So facing weapons of equal strength but with a compromised ability to hit as frequently because Scouts can dodge all my shots, pop back out and hit me because I can't dodge as frequently, then I would rather have a less spammy weapon so I can do some good burst on the once in a while time I DO hit them, what good is effective damage over time being the same if it requires hitting the target more frequently over that timespan, when the whole problem is hitting them in the first place_  That, in effect, makes them feel and actually BE less powerful except in the hands of an A class mech.  Edit:  I'm aware that if you consider the proportional damage done to an A mech, it seems more fair, maybe even that a more spammy weapon should help, but again when we're talking about the ability to mitigate damage entirely and do so more frequently than someone in a heavier mech, it robs you of feeling powerful in a heavier mech

Lets be honest with ourselves why else has the dominant strategy emerged to pick a Flak Scout or some other burst-A variant with maxed out movement tree or maybe 15 movement and 10 defense_  If you can answer that without being able to mention any of the things I just did then fine you win, I'm stupid.  But good luck to ye on that one.  Player skill can only make up for so much, your level of skill can't compensate for the fact you can see the Tow coming but you're still waiting to be able to dodge so you can't because you already used it trying to prevent yourself from being flanked so hard by an A mech thats circling around in or near your blind spot and moving behind you but you can't move as fast, so you dodge to create a little space so they can't just weave tight little circles around you, then BAM you get pooped with a secondary you can't dodge because you got sick of getting Flakked.

I'm sorry this post is convoluted and deviated a bit from your wonderful and focused thoughts on weapon power.  I just think any discussion of that has to have effectiveness weighted with speed and dodging ability inseperably considered with the percieved and actual power of the weapons.  I don't know what metric could be used to measure that honestly, but its clear to me that if we were to use a "Performance Points" type metric like in Forza Motorsport for the mechs, the A class mechs would all have the highest ratings because effectively thier "power to weight ratio" is through the roof.  Whats better a Lotus Elise or a Chrysler Town and Country (about the same engine power)_  Now imgaine mounting a gattling gun and a rocket launcher on each one, slap some bullet proof armor on the mini-van.  Give both the ability to boost sideways, but make the Lotus be able to do it more frequently.  Sure the Town and Country can maybe survive one extra rocket or spit of gunfire, but its never going to hit the Lotus at all in a strafe/circling duel but the Lotus can just pound away on the slower easier to hit target and almost always have a better firing angle while being able to mitigate the mini-vans ability to have a good enough eangle to retuirn fire at all.  This happens al;l the time in Hawken.  But at least in real life if they start out facing each other at medium range the one or two shots the Town and Country might land will at least slow the Lotus down or disable it entirely, but in Hawken we don't even have that.

Hopefully my disorganized thoughts are understandable to someone out there and not interpreted as vitriolic, I'm very tired from a combination of cough syrup and lots of tennis and basketball today, I'm thinking even less clearly than usual.  Ultimately I just think each mech should feel rewarding and powerful given its role, and not just because "oh this mech is hard as ballz to use so the few kills I get as an underdog feel proportionally better" like the Grenadier.  And yes, I'm aware that these thoughts ultimately stem from not being good at CQC, but guess what_  The people who are currently good at it will still likely be good at it regardless of most changes if they are as good as they say, so I see little issue with making it a little easier on people like me who don't have the worlds greatest reflexes or situational awareness and who refuse to use some fuzzy bunny A mech. (Ok fine I use a slug reaper sometimes but its because I have to to play against anybody who is good)

Edited by Scroticus42, July 02 2013 - 09:18 PM.


#10 Guiotine

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Posted July 02 2013 - 09:35 PM

Before I start, I would like to explain I wasn't talking about balance in Hawken, at least in the sense of what needs changing. I just wanted to explain that the balance between Toy guns and paper mechs is very hard to achieve, because striking a perfect balance between these 7 factors is extremely difficult -- especially since one of them is near impossible to control, as it rests 100% in the mind of the player (that is perceived damage). The best way to strike a balance is not to make everything powerful, but to make everything feel like they're powerful...and remember, when I defined power in the OP, it was not just "strength" or "damage", but it was that the player could feel like they did something at the end of a battle, and they feel like they have multiple tools to do so. Now, on to Scroticus's post.

View PostScroticus42, on July 02 2013 - 08:58 PM, said:

Well I took the time to read it so I should probably post to justify that time investment.  I have no issue with anything you said.  I think that for me the emphasis on CQC hurts my percieved power and thus my enjoyment of the game because I am one of those "unskilled players" that really wants more even dodge cooldowns for all mechs.

I do apologize for the unskilled comment, by it I didn't mean you suck or anything, I was referring more to it being a scapegoat for some players to justify what went wrong in a battle. Players will sometimes claim that it was purely that their weapons were weak/ the enemies weapons were OP. That is never the only reason. It could be a factor, it could be a very large factor, but it is never the only factor. That's what I meant, really. Instead "unskilled", it's more like "doesn't take responsibility". If you still think that's you, I'm sorry, just know I don't mean it as an insult, just as a statement of fact :P I should also mention, that while this occurs most often in unskilled players/players who don't take responsibility/unknowledgeable players, anyone can fall victim to this. A player with a 2300 rating can still get a wrong impression of a weapon's power if he uses it incorrectly for the first time.

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summary: equal dodge CD and Mech Warrior -- style (IIRC) parts shooting

While I think that style of eliminating parts is certainly interesting, honestly I am not sure if that is the best thing for Hawken. I will not go in depth, however as I don't want to derail the thread.

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summary: weapon analysis done in a vacuum, different outcomes when factoring in player skill, and feeling less powerful since can't hit.

I agree, theorycrafting is often done in a vacuum and does not account for player skill, but that doesn't mean it's always inaccurate. It is good for adding a mathematical input on a weapon's balance, but it should not be the sole factor in determining what gets changed.
As for not feeling as powerful when you can't hit A-classes.... I like how you brought that up, that is an excellent example of perceived power, and as I said, anyone affected by this gets reduced quality in their experience of the game.

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Summary: A-class burst dominance

To be completely honest, in that situation the player in question got outplayed and was apparently away from any teammates and badly out of position, however you do have a point, but again, I will not go further in depth as that is not the point of this thread.

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summary: mobility must be considered with damage when balancing

I don't disagree with that, but again that is not the point of this thread, I was not commenting on any kind of weapon balance, merely how that balance felt, which is an important distinction.

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Hopefully my disorganized thoughts are understandable to someone out there and not interpreted as vitriolic, I'm very tired from a combination of cough syrup and lots of tennis and basketball today, I'm thinking even less clearly than usual.

No problem, and again, my use of "unskilled" was a bad word choice, I did not mean it as an insult, and I am sorry. However, let's try to keep this thread on topic_ Not to say this isn't a bad post, though :P

Edited by Guiotine, July 02 2013 - 11:12 PM.

ReachH said:

I dub thee, Guiotine, 'Coloxxen, the mech pokemon'

View PostAsianJoyKiller, on July 02 2013 - 03:18 PM, said:

This wall of text gets the AJK Seal of Approval.

#11 Scroticus42

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Posted July 02 2013 - 09:59 PM

Oh I was just commentinmg on what I felt about feeling of power or percieved power in general and also the first part of your definition of power, which is most important to me, that being "players ability to affect the outcome of a battle", which for me touches on a more overall balance of power in this game that encompasses more than just weapons, even when manifested in the argument of TTK using weapons, its more heavily affected IMO by speed and dodging than anything.  Sorry, wasn't trying to branch off too far.  I was trying to comment on feel of balance of weapons but I guess I didn't do that clearly.  I'm aware theres a difference between the numerical differences of weapons that appear to be very well balanced with this game and how they feel when you use them or get shot by them.  But if the issue is to get the right feel, I think thats an inherently very difficult of not impossible task, making it hard for me to get what the point of the thread really is as far as perscribing something better for something that ostensibly seems too subjective to be maximized efficiently (could be wrong on that, we can't give up on trying to improve it I guess, thats what humans typically do with anything really).  Personally, I think most weapons feel quite satisfying to use because of mostly very good sound and animation, even with "weaker" weapons like the Hawkins RPR or KE Sabot, and thus psychologically I feel adequately powerful using just about any of them, like I said things that sap my feeling of power in a mech have nothing to do with the weapons, but thats just me and I guess anything outside of that is not the point you wanted to discuss here.  My bad.

To be more on topic I guess I'm caught on the fence a bit, I did just say I prefer slower bursty weapons simply because I can't hit A classes and need to maximize my damage (actual power) because I hit them infrequently.  However, conversely they can feel very overpowered too on the recieving end, in fact thats why A classes are so frustrating because you can't hit them AND they fuzzy bunny your day up with burst damage so I don't really know what the best way is to find the middle ground.  Maybe something simple thats more psychological like just making the numbers for everything bigger Borderlands style so people think they're doing more, or maybe dividing the bar up into more slices so people get the feeling of taking out more chunks of the bar.  I guess that won't fool some people but I can't think of any good ways to get a golden TTK and minimize balancing or without changing major game mechanics or concepts.

And don't worry I label myself as unskilled because the results speak for themselves considering my amount of time playing its very dissappointing and I've taken a break but am considering playing again after the next patch.

Edited by Scroticus42, July 02 2013 - 10:12 PM.


#12 Rahh_Vende

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Posted July 02 2013 - 10:07 PM

Let me assure you, it is an empowering feeling indeed when you crush that Scout like a fly leaving him wondering what went wrong, because you still have more armor left than he started out with. There is power in the C-class, perceived and real, but it takes practise to unlock it.

Edited by Rahh_Vende, July 02 2013 - 10:10 PM.

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#13 Scroticus42

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Posted July 02 2013 - 10:16 PM

Well I mean I know never to use turret mode, I readily admit my points stem from some lack of aptitude, like for instance I just suck at hitting things with my Grenadier even when a Scout is just strafing normally they can still walk and change direction quickly enough to make my Rev-GL "feel" useless.  Then to top it off on maps like origin and parts of uptown theres these little ledges on the floors that make your grenmades bounce up and never skid all the way to the target even when you anticipate correctly and that REALLY pisses me off when that happens.

Edited by Scroticus42, July 02 2013 - 10:20 PM.


#14 Guiotine

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Posted July 02 2013 - 10:35 PM

You actually hit the nail on the head earlier, this balance is extremely difficult if not impossible to achieve, especially when put in context with every other part that makes a game fun. Power and Counterplay go hand in hand, because you want one person to feel empowered, but you don't want the other person to feel helpless. That is why the end goal is to make everyone in a damage specialized role to feel like they can contribute, even if that means contributing in a different manner. Of course, as you said one of the biggest problems is that it is all subjective, and as such no one will agree completely on everything, making it a big challenge.

As for your issues with perceived power specifically, this is the hardest element of power to balance, as it is all in the player's head. However, the delivery of the information can help. I mentioned how FF XIV displays two health bars for enemies, and how the larger one helps with perceived power. This can also take the form of more bars in Hawken. Say one bar is 50 armor (don't know the actual number, just using an example.) Hitting half of a flak shot, whether by bad aim or dodge, takes off a low amount of bars (1 in this scenario, I think. Wasn't Flak damage 10 damage per pellet at 12 pellets_) Now, in a later update, the health bar system is changed to show 25 armor per bar. All of a sudden it seems like that half Flak shot does double damage, even if it wasn't touched. This is because the perception of how much damage was dealt has changed due to the difference in health bars. However, the devs don't have to change anything if you can hit the guy, but that is not a skill gained in a day, everyone has trouble with aim at some point, even the most skilled players can miss, so keep at it! :D

ReachH said:

I dub thee, Guiotine, 'Coloxxen, the mech pokemon'

View PostAsianJoyKiller, on July 02 2013 - 03:18 PM, said:

This wall of text gets the AJK Seal of Approval.

#15 xXHadronCutterXx

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Posted July 03 2013 - 01:47 AM

I thought this thread was going to be about how electric power affects your PC and ultimately gaming. :mellow:

Get your hard on.


#16 Guiotine

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Posted July 03 2013 - 11:39 AM

edited in a little paragraph under "Animation" talking about Hack-n'-slash games, because I feel they deserve a mention there. It is the one thing they do best, imo.

Edited by Guiotine, July 03 2013 - 11:39 AM.

ReachH said:

I dub thee, Guiotine, 'Coloxxen, the mech pokemon'

View PostAsianJoyKiller, on July 02 2013 - 03:18 PM, said:

This wall of text gets the AJK Seal of Approval.

#17 Guiotine

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Posted July 29 2014 - 08:23 PM

bumping more than a year later, because this topic is always relevant.

ReachH said:

I dub thee, Guiotine, 'Coloxxen, the mech pokemon'

View PostAsianJoyKiller, on July 02 2013 - 03:18 PM, said:

This wall of text gets the AJK Seal of Approval.

#18 SamEureka

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Posted July 29 2014 - 08:48 PM

too many words.... my eyes bounced off this whole thread, back into the crypt whence it came
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#19 Aims

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Posted July 29 2014 - 09:20 PM

View PostGuiotine, on July 29 2014 - 08:23 PM, said:

bumping more than a year later, because this topic is always relevant.

Has been a while indeed!

#20 Infyrno

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Posted July 29 2014 - 10:36 PM

I have a dream... That one day... I will read this entire thread.




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