22 replies to this topic

[raum]

"[font=play, helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Basically, move your mouse slowly, you'll notice that you'll move more sensitive, now try to move it faster in the same distance, it moves slower and doesn't cover the same distance.[/font]

[Fantus_Longhorn]

There is no negative accelaration. There is no code which modifies the input from your mouse beyond smoothing and sensitivity. There is only a cap on turning speed.

There's a quote from a Dev which I'll find when I'm not on my phone.

Edited by Fantus_Longhorn, January 13 2013 - 04:59 AM.

[ArnieF4440]

check FAQ's in the Hawken Tips and Tricks thread, link in my siggy ...

Edited by ArnieF4440, January 13 2013 - 04:43 PM.

[raum]

Thanks for being so nice.

Creating a poll about this doesnt mean that i havent seen older topics about this situation.
I have read about it on topics where a dev shows and says that "its for sake of realism of the game" and CLOSES the topic for no further discussion, which is also very kind. And does not make just one bit of sense to me. Because this game isnt really realistic at all, because people who like this game like it the way that is, because there is another mech warrior game that is quite more realistic than this, because if we cared about realism we wouldnt be here, because this is basically a fps where you have movement therefore you will need fast mouse movements...

And mainly because speed cap lets higher sens players hit that speed cap less than low sens players do, which seems a little unfair.

[raum]

So, if you are gonna argue about this in a reasonable way, please go on.
But wasting your time on replying me to STHU just shows how worthless your time is.

btw, i have created this poll because other threads in "closed beta" was closed by admins for some reason and there wasnt really a "poll" about it.

[Fantus_Longhorn]

This is the Quote from the Dev:

[ADH]Deuy, on December 21 2012 - 04:25 AM, said:

Hawken has a cap on turn speed, in other words you can't turn your character as fast as you can move your mouse.  The max turn speed is a lot lower than most FPS games. This is in an attempt to simulate being in the cockpit of a huge machine, rather than feeling like a human spinning around.

A lot of people mistake this for negative mouse acceleration.  In fact, when you flick your mouse to the side quickly you are indeed turning at the max speed cap, however you are only turning for a short moment because your mouse move was so fast (it ended quickly).  When you move the mouse slower you can still turn at that same max speed cap, but you will be able to continue turning much farther because you're moving the mouse for a longer period of time.  

You aren't being punished for moving your mouse faster, the mechs simply can't turn that fast and will stop turning when your mouse isn't moving.  We tested having the mech "remember" your mouse movement and attempt to "catch up" to that motion, but this made the controls feel laggy and unresponsive.  It was also a bit nauseating for a lot of people.  


P.S.-  I personally asked an engineer to check on this based off the feedback from older threads.  He looked into the code extensively and the info above is based off his testing. The speed cap is hit right away with quick mouse movements and then drops off instantly when the mouse movement ends.  If you try moving your mouse very fast for a longer period of time (like dragging it quickly across the whole length of your desk) it's very difficult to not mix in up and down aim movement rather than just turning.  I think this gives the impression that you just can't turn as fast as moving the mouse slowly.

Fact is, this is how this game has been designed and it is a core part of how the game feels to play. The Dodge mechanic and 180 spin are how you get around the limitations of look movement.

raum, on January 13 2013 - 04:37 AM, said:

And mainly because speed cap lets higher sens players hit that speed cap less than low sens players do, which seems a little unfair.

I think this is meant to be the other way around.
This being 'unfair' is why you're able to make adjustments to the sensitivity and smoothing. Personally, I'd like Raw input, but I can live without it. Also, there's no point in having a high quality mouse if you're not going to set it up correctly for the games you play. I have a completely different configuration for this game as I do for TF2. They are completely different games with different play styles so I have to set my hardware up accordingly.

Edited by Fantus_Longhorn, January 13 2013 - 05:06 AM.

[raum]

"Fact is, this is how this game has been designed and it is a core part of how the game feels to play. The Dodge mechanic and 180 spin are how you get around the limitations of look movement."

I'm enjoying the 180 spin and dodge mechanics but they're only helpful if you need horizontal moves. Sens cap mostly disturbs me on vertical moves, and for example; Origin (or w/e its called) is a 2 level map that requires quite much of a vertical moves

[Fantus_Longhorn]

raum, on January 13 2013 - 06:35 AM, said:

Sens cap mostly disturbs me on vertical moves, and for example; Origin (or w/e its called) is a 2 level map that requires quite much of a vertical moves

In what way is it disturbing you_ Are you running out of mouse mat/space_

This game does play differently to others and there a fair few things to get used to. Aiming requires smooth movements, not the twitch aim that most other FPS require.

[Karaipantsu]

Wait, vertical movement isn't limited.  Rotation speed is the only place where mouse speed != move speed.  Soooo... what're you asking for_

[Akrium]

turn speed is limited because they want equal play either using a joystick or occulas rift for turning.

Plus it feels right... I enjoy it.

[dn]

please see my post on this. the cap as an idea is fine but it is INCORRECTLY implemented and negative acceleration occurs. its that simple

[cheezr]

The mouse controls in this game feels really bad. I don't care what the reasoning is it feels like an aggressive implementation of negative mouse acceleration.

I guess I'll try my joystick next and see if I can get used to that, but using a joystick for an arcadey mech game like this doesn't sit right with me.

[Beefsweat]

cheezr, on February 11 2014 - 09:22 PM, said:

The mouse controls in this game feels really bad. I don't care what the reasoning is it feels like an aggressive implementation of negative mouse acceleration.

I guess I'll try my joystick next and see if I can get used to that, but using a joystick for an arcadey mech game like this doesn't sit right with me.

This thread is over a year old and the devs themselves have given a factual explanation on this...

[cheezr]

Beefsweat, on February 11 2014 - 09:51 PM, said:

cheezr, on February 11 2014 - 09:22 PM, said:

The mouse controls in this game feels really bad. I don't care what the reasoning is it feels like an aggressive implementation of negative mouse acceleration.

I guess I'll try my joystick next and see if I can get used to that, but using a joystick for an arcadey mech game like this doesn't sit right with me.

This thread is over a year old and the devs themselves have given a factual explanation on this...

This is the first pertinent thread that popped up in search. I don't care what the dev's reasoning is, the fact is the mouse controls feel really bad.

[hawken00]

Akrium, on January 13 2013 - 10:57 AM, said:

turn speed is limited because they want equal play either using a joystick or occulas rift for turning.

Plus it feels right... I enjoy it.

lol...

[hawken00]

The problem is that it doesn't feel right for a Fps. I just came back to the game and I had to lower my mouse sensibility a LOT to get an "acceptable" feeling. And I am only using this mouse on "medium dpi" settings. Also it takes a lot of time to adapt to this low sensibility, and a lot of people who will try this on steam won't have the patience or even the idea to lower it

Akrium, on January 13 2013 - 10:57 AM, said:

they want equal play either using a joystick or occulas rift for turning

They want to build a competitive fps.. with a joystick_ Who is gonna play that with a joystick seriously_
And about occulus rift: it's a performance problem imo, and this is not the solution

[Akrium]

hawken00, on February 12 2014 - 04:19 AM, said:

The problem is that it doesn't feel right for a Fps. I just came back to the game and I had to lower my mouse sensibility a LOT to get an "acceptable" feeling. And I am only using this mouse on "medium dpi" settings. Also it takes a lot of time to adapt to this low sensibility, and a lot of people who will try this on steam won't have the patience or even the idea to lower it

Akrium, on January 13 2013 - 10:57 AM, said:

they want equal play either using a joystick or occulas rift for turning

They want to build a competitive fps.. with a joystick_ Who is gonna play that with a joystick seriously_
And about occulus rift: it's a performance problem imo, and this is not the solution

Competitive play does NOT have to exclude options to play their game. I've played in competitive fps league play against people using track balls before. I've also played with people that don't use keyboards but a mouse and joystick. Not everyone plays the same way. I've even played competitive against someone with no arms.

Don't be so narrow minded that there is only 1 way to play a game competitively.

Also note that when I made that statement, over a year ago.. the turning cap rate was slower than it is now. The current turning rate cap in the steam version of Hawken is faster and feels great. No more dragging my mouse to get that turn I feel frustrated I couldn't make while also not making it so I can do a 1080 in a split second and a flick of the wrist.

Also the dpi rate on your mouse is a personal feeling on what is comfortable to you. I NEVER play anymore on the highest dpi because I have more control with the slightly slower speed of the middle road dpi. I can play with the stupid high dpi and I used to. I just don't find it as good anymore.

Edited by Akrium, February 12 2014 - 04:34 AM.

[hawken00]

Akrium, on February 12 2014 - 04:34 AM, said:

hawken00, on February 12 2014 - 04:19 AM, said:

The problem is that it doesn't feel right for a Fps. I just came back to the game and I had to lower my mouse sensibility a LOT to get an "acceptable" feeling. And I am only using this mouse on "medium dpi" settings. Also it takes a lot of time to adapt to this low sensibility, and a lot of people who will try this on steam won't have the patience or even the idea to lower it

Akrium, on January 13 2013 - 10:57 AM, said:

they want equal play either using a joystick or occulas rift for turning

They want to build a competitive fps.. with a joystick_ Who is gonna play that with a joystick seriously_
And about occulus rift: it's a performance problem imo, and this is not the solution

Competitive play does NOT have to exclude options to play their game. I've played in competitive fps league play against people using track balls before. I've also played with people that don't use keyboards but a mouse and joystick. Not everyone plays the same way. I've even played competitive against someone with no arms.

Don't be so narrow minded that there is only 1 way to play a game competitively.

You say Mouse + joystick, not keyboard + joystick! Have you ever seen a top fps player play with keyboard + joystick_
Trackball, well it can be as fast as a mouse if well tuned, I'm not talking about that..

Akrium, on February 12 2014 - 04:34 AM, said:

Also note that when I made that statement, over a year ago.. the turning cap rate was slower than it is now. The current turning rate cap in the steam version of Hawken is faster and feels great. No more dragging my mouse to get that turn I feel frustrated I couldn't make while also not making it so I can do a 1080 in a split second and a flick of the wrist.

Also the dpi rate on your mouse is a personal feeling on what is comfortable to you. I NEVER play anymore on the highest dpi because I have more control with the slightly slower speed of the middle road dpi. I can play with the stupid high dpi and I used to. I just don't find it as good anymore.

It has only been buffed by 15%, it's not much faster. Of couse you have more control because you're used to the turn cap and you know you need to have low sensibility to make it work

[Akrium]

hawken00, on February 12 2014 - 04:43 AM, said:

Akrium, on February 12 2014 - 04:34 AM, said:

hawken00, on February 12 2014 - 04:19 AM, said:

The problem is that it doesn't feel right for a Fps. I just came back to the game and I had to lower my mouse sensibility a LOT to get an "acceptable" feeling. And I am only using this mouse on "medium dpi" settings. Also it takes a lot of time to adapt to this low sensibility, and a lot of people who will try this on steam won't have the patience or even the idea to lower it

Akrium, on January 13 2013 - 10:57 AM, said:

they want equal play either using a joystick or occulas rift for turning

They want to build a competitive fps.. with a joystick_ Who is gonna play that with a joystick seriously_
And about occulus rift: it's a performance problem imo, and this is not the solution

Competitive play does NOT have to exclude options to play their game. I've played in competitive fps league play against people using track balls before. I've also played with people that don't use keyboards but a mouse and joystick. Not everyone plays the same way. I've even played competitive against someone with no arms.

Don't be so narrow minded that there is only 1 way to play a game competitively.

You say Mouse + joystick, not keyboard + joystick! Have you ever seen a top fps player play with keyboard + joystick_
Trackball, well it can be as fast as a mouse if well tuned, I'm not talking about that..

Akrium, on February 12 2014 - 04:34 AM, said:

Also note that when I made that statement, over a year ago.. the turning cap rate was slower than it is now. The current turning rate cap in the steam version of Hawken is faster and feels great. No more dragging my mouse to get that turn I feel frustrated I couldn't make while also not making it so I can do a 1080 in a split second and a flick of the wrist.

Also the dpi rate on your mouse is a personal feeling on what is comfortable to you. I NEVER play anymore on the highest dpi because I have more control with the slightly slower speed of the middle road dpi. I can play with the stupid high dpi and I used to. I just don't find it as good anymore.

It has only been buffed by 15%, it's not much faster. Of couse you have more control because you're used to the turn cap and you know you need to have low sensibility to make it work

No I meant joystick left hand, mouse right hand.. I knew a few guys back in competitive CS (pre CS:S and also during CS:S) that ran the game that way. I still have no clue how they did it, but they were good at it. Gave a LOT of control to their aiming.

And I currently also play tf2 (not competitively, though I could). And I can flop back and forth between both games with no issues. It could be that I've been playing games for so long I can adjust a little better, perhaps. But that is something that comes with time playing games in general. And the top tier guys have this ability as well or they should at any rate. Being able to adjust is very important to play competitively because things can change.

Now this is a bit off because it isn't a fps.. but look at LoL. That game has gone through TONS of changes, and not just minor ones. Yet day in and day out you keep seeing the same people at the top. This is because they can adjust.

The turning rate cap also helps counter how slow the game really is, from a mobility stand point. If they speed the game play up more, they need to allow a better turning rate. If they slow it down, they need to tighten it in. Lets face it.. the mechs are the size of some small countries and not your typical fps object the size of a stick. Having the turning rate cap allows the game to be a slower pace but still take some skill in aiming rather than just point click dead. It helps pull focus off straight up aim, but to aim and positioning.

It's all a balancing act and I am not saying it is perfect. But they are working on it at all times. I can say this since I've been around since closed beta started. And the current Hawken feel... feels spot on in terms of aiming and turning. I would just like to see a very very very tiny increase in health because I feel it is almost too easy to aim now.

[hawken00]

Akrium, on February 12 2014 - 05:02 AM, said:

No I meant joystick left hand, mouse right hand.. I knew a few guys back in competitive CS (pre CS:S and also during CS:S) that ran the game that way. I still have no clue how they did it, but they were good at it. Gave a LOT of control to their aiming.

Thats what I'm saying, theres nothing wrong using a joystick instead of a keyboard, thats the mouse which matters

Akrium, on February 12 2014 - 05:02 AM, said:

And the current Hawken feel... feels spot on in terms of aiming and turning. I would just like to see a very very very tiny increase in health because I feel it is almost too easy to aim now.

Reading every comments and hearing feedback from streams etc, a lot of players are complaining about the current hawken