199 replies to this topic

[flimsy]

FussyBadger, on March 18 2013 - 02:41 PM, said:

Maschas, I largely agree with what you've said here as you can see in the post that you quoted -I'm not sure you read it based on your conclusions.

I haven't suggested much beyond improved matchmaking and team balancing. How does that negatively impact competitive players_

I was mostly responding to the idea of modern games giving a sense of accomplishment via amped up powers and rewards. I'm not opposed to your specific recommendations, but I do think that ADH shouldn't necessarily consider themselves bound by what happens in the mainstream.

[DeVact]

As I see it, this whole thread is kind of pointless.
The devs have already stated somewhere (please don't ask me where specifically) that they will work on better ingame balancing next. I interpret this as in that the overall skill level of 2 teams should be near equal. So there would be newbs on both teams but equally distributed or if somebody is a real Uber1337MLGpro he would have to carry a team of newbs against a team of mid-skilled players.

EDIT: The devs might therefore stretch the restrictive +/- 200 rating we have now to something more adequate (like the initially announced +/- 300 or even more)

I might be completely wrong though so please don't hate me!

Edited by DeVact, March 18 2013 - 03:01 PM.

[FussyBadger]

maschas, on March 18 2013 - 02:49 PM, said:

I was mostly responding to the idea of modern games giving a sense of accomplishment via amped up powers and rewards. I'm not opposed to your specific recommendations, but I do think that ADH shouldn't necessarily consider themselves bound by what happens in the mainstream.

I agree.

Devact - If you're wrong, I will TOTALLY hate you. I'm unreasonable like that. (That's what happens when I have too many meetings at work.)

[Restowned]

Considering the game isn't even out yet, I would agree with devact here. Its nice to try new things out and see what works and doesn't work in beta. If it means the majority of hard fought, competitive matches will be played on west coast for the time being... then so be it. I could use lead time practice anyways. There are games to join, just not half as many anymore. I still hate being labeled a pubstomper tho but no hard feelings. That is ofc in relation to the thread title, I will just stay out of the whole conversation about shooters being shallow now, except adding that it would be cool if the mechs were faster! lol

[NBShoot_me]

If you can't join any games of a particular type that you want to because they're all locked out... join an advanced game and let the other team obliterate you while you twirl around, wave about,  and declare war on the ground.  Works for me.  I can play siege again!  

EDIT: having a dual monitor setup also helps so that I can watch youtube while I'm at it.

Edited by NBShoot_me, March 19 2013 - 09:18 PM.

[Rekkr]

I was tempted to vote 'Yes' on this poll because I would honestly rather play ANY game of Hawken as opposed to NO game of Hawken.  I generally keep my rating around 1800-1850 so that I can join a wider range of games.  When I got up to 1920 my joinable games dropped down to maybe three or four open rooms at a time, normally all completely empty.  I don't think this "justifies pub stomping", but I do think it's ok to join lower leveled rooms.  When I do this, I do just well enough to make it into the top three so that I never raise or lower my rating too much anymore.

[WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW]

No, people just want to play for fun, not competition. Some people play casually while others want a challenge in order to have fun. Skill level is basically irrelevant because a skilled player casually playing wants to stomp, a newb can desire an impossible obstacle, and another newb may desire competition against other newbs (or similarly with veterans). Even some newbs just want to "stomp" other newbs. For fun. Because it IS fun if you let yourself enjoy it.

There are essentially three categories of players and nearly all of players out of the total number of players are being discouraged from playing in one way or another under the current system. Newbies seeking a challenge cannot face up against vets who want to relax, vets cannot queue with other vets because of the general lack of vets concurrently playing in intersecting sets of acceptable regions/servers, and by a chain effect of smurfing by unsatisfied vets, even newbs who want to play casually/fairly against other newbs cannot do so. Although that last point may be an exaggeration - I do not know of how frequent smurfing is presently - I think I have illustrated why the arguments based around insulting others because they are impatient or are overly entitled are good examples of bigotry that oversimplifies a lot of factors and are generally very presumptuous and homogenizing.

Apart from that - leading question in the poll made me much less interested in responding. I suppose though that for the majority of players, such a provocative question is necessary to instigate conversation. Good choice for baiting them in order to get to me. I feel so flattered! :DDD

EDIT:

Sarcasm aside, the point the previous poster makes should illustrate how counter-intuitive the system makes for enjoying Hawken. One can manipulate one's own MMR to be able to play more games. This is easy on a smurf or medium-level player's account, but not so for a fairly high ranking account. I like playing the Reaper with Slug, so I would rather not grind another prestiged Reaper, on top of ungrinding(_) my MMR to play casually.

Honestly speaking, I often feel bad when I queue with newbies. I usually do prefer queueing with my equals or betters, but they are not always online at the same times I am and if I had all such players on my friend's list, I would be unable to track my actual friends (of which none currently play Hawken or want to play it).

Also, I voted Yes but all the poll options are, in themselves, meaningless.

Edited by WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW, March 19 2013 - 11:58 PM.

[RentAKnight]

WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW, on March 19 2013 - 11:48 PM, said:

No, people just want to play for fun, not competition. Some people play casually while others want a challenge in order to have fun. Skill level is basically irrelevant because a skilled player casually playing wants to stomp, a newb can desire an impossible obstacle, and another newb may desire competition against other newbs (or similarly with veterans). Even some newbs just want to "stomp" other newbs. For fun. Because it IS fun if you let yourself enjoy it.

There are essentially three categories of players and nearly all of players out of the total number of players are being discouraged from playing in one way or another under the current system. Newbies seeking a challenge cannot face up against vets who want to relax, vets cannot queue with other vets because of the general lack of vets concurrently playing in intersecting sets of acceptable regions/servers, and by a chain effect of smurfing by unsatisfied vets, even newbs who want to play casually/fairly against other newbs cannot do so. Although that last point may be an exaggeration - I do not know of how frequent smurfing is presently - I think I have illustrated why the arguments based around insulting others because they are impatient or are overly entitled are good examples of bigotry that oversimplifies a lot of factors and are generally very presumptuous and homogenizing.

Apart from that - leading question in the poll made me much less interested in responding. I suppose though that for the majority of players, such a provocative question is necessary to instigate conversation. Good choice for baiting them in order to get to me. I feel so flattered! :DDD

You've made a bunch of good observations but you didn't recognize the issue of vets stomping new players.  Is this scenario not an issue and simply an acceptable, and expected category_

Those scenarios where newbs are getting stomped either by vets or other newbs, while it's great fun for the stomper, it compromises entertaining gameplay for the newbs.  I argue the newb is less likely to stick around when they rarely have an entertaining gameplay experience.

If you agree that this is an issue, do you have any suggestions for solutions_

How do you feel about the latest rendition of restriction tweaks_  As you get further above 1650, you will only be able to play with higher folks.  Once you get to 1775 you can only play with those that are 1650+.


A different topic:
Should new players start at 1300 or 1400 instead of 1500 and have to climb all the way up_  Is the population too small to where you have to start everyone at 1500 so that good players could get up to where they be more quickly_

Edited by RentAKnight, March 20 2013 - 07:47 AM.

[WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW]

I am suggesting the current system is utterly flawed with respect to what people want: fun; which I have elaborated into the three memtioned pools of players that define different versions of fun. I think it can be further simplified down to balanced (usually called ranked) matches versus unbalanced AKA not actively balanced (as opposed to purposefully unbalanced) (usually called unranked) matches.

The question of whether it is okay for vets to stomp newbs is meaningless when we consider those vets can desire to stomp and those newbs that don't mind being stomped. Sometimes it is okay when both stompers and stompees are both consenting, and sometimes it is not when neither are enjoying it. (This is based on the assumption that newbs are simply going to be worse than vets - which is usually the case, even for those newbs who have a knack for Hawken's gameplay.)

With this in mind (that there are those newbs who like learning from stomps or difficult opponents, as well as that there are gets who want to stomp), yes, there is an issue with the current system, which is fully ranked, all of the time, without prejudice - and thus also without common sense.

The easiest solution is to divide matchmaking into automatically and actively balanced servers that also have an impact on MMR, versus those servers that are totally not balanced (i.e. unregulated - permitting either lots of balanced matches or very unbalanced matches) but also do not make changes to MMR at the end of each match. Both types of servers will display the average MMR and would retain the label of advanced/intermediate/beginner, but only in regulated-balanced servers would MMR restrictions, team scrambling/autobalance, and so on would be enforced.

Thus, the system as it is, has the best parts of it retained while adding a system to enable casual gameplay (which comprises the majority of young and middle-aged games).

My MMR is above the hard threshold and I usually cannot find an appropriate server matching my tastes for map and team mode (and population). It is probably fine for newbies but certainly not particularly enjoyable for me. It is usually bearable though.

Regarding the new topic: 1300 or 1400 as the starter rating would be good. Even better would be to make the account's first few matches (3 to 10 or so_) have greater weighting in terms of rating changing. This would accelerate the process of finding a sufficiently accurate number to represent the player's skill.

[WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW]

I cannot edit my previous post in this mobile interface, so I doublepost and add in terms of black and white text explicitly: those who want balanced matches, vets or newbs or intermediates, are satisfied by my suggestion.

Those who are not satisfied are those of the absolute extremes of the player skill gradient: those beat vets who want a great challenge and the worst newbs who want a complete stomp. The best vets can play private servers in 1v2 against other vets in organized matches (or play some sort of bull het/danmaku shooter on the hardest difficulty, ex. Subterranean Animism on hardest difficulty), while the worst newbs who want a complete stomp will have to play Farmville - frankly speaking, these are the parties least easy to sympathise with, especially the newbs who want to stomp even worse newbs.

For these extreme groups, my only suggestion for them, personally, is to find more challenging games or activities.

[nunrigger]

Posting below WWWWWWWWW because his long username makes the forum look like fuzzy bunny.

[StrangerDanger]

I don't understand how someone can like and want a game to succeed but then do things to hurt the game. Pub stomping hurt the game, it is absolutely no fun to get stomped and it is not fun to basically do nothing while one person on your team does all the worth either.

[Beemann]

StrangerDanger, on March 20 2013 - 12:36 PM, said:

I don't understand how someone can like and want a game to succeed but then do things to hurt the game. Pub stomping hurt the game, it is absolutely no fun to get stomped and it is not fun to basically do nothing while one person on your team does all the worth either.

You know what kills a game faster for someone_
Not being able to play it

[TexArmageddon]

How is this thread still going_ What's worse it's pointless. you don't get better playing with people who aren't good. As a matter of fact you don't progress in anything in life if you aren't learning from someone who is better than you! now I swore i replied to this thread, but as someone who started a mere two weeks ago.. playing with Vets are a good thing. You learn what you are doing wrong in that instant and if you choose to NOT pay attention to what they are doing that is honestly YOUR FAULT! As a matter of fact, i have a few friends who play infiltrator and for the life of me I could not figure out how they were killing me with the grenade launcher. Like a Noob, I CHOOSE not to read the description on weapons and completely ignored the fact TOWS/Grenade launchers could be remotely detonated. I just realized this a few days ago.  I still consider myself NEW, but I'm no FOOL who is going to sit still and let myself be killed. Do you honestly think the Vets here became good at the game by playing others who are equally bad_ They faced the same problems as any other noob here. i can't think of one game that doesn't have pub stomping in it. Take WoW for instance, and how they try to limit the initial BG to lvl 60s only.. Its just a bunch of ALTs with high ranking gear to curb stomp you. It's no different from any other MMOFPS, MOBA, MMORPG Etc... there will always be better people than you at extreme levels and if they can't find matches at their own level, i can assure you theyll just de-rank or  create a new account. I understand your frustration, but you need to man up or woman up and get with the program.

[RedVan]

Beemann, on March 20 2013 - 12:58 PM, said:

StrangerDanger, on March 20 2013 - 12:36 PM, said:

I don't understand how someone can like and want a game to succeed but then do things to hurt the game. Pub stomping hurt the game, it is absolutely no fun to get stomped and it is not fun to basically do nothing while one person on your team does all the worth either.

You know what kills a game faster for someone_
Not being able to play it

But you got to admit, looking at the browser full of games you cannot join gives you a wonderful feeling knowing someone, somewhere, is enjoying it

[AsianJoyKiller]

RedVan, on March 20 2013 - 03:11 PM, said:

Beemann, on March 20 2013 - 12:58 PM, said:

StrangerDanger, on March 20 2013 - 12:36 PM, said:

I don't understand how someone can like and want a game to succeed but then do things to hurt the game. Pub stomping hurt the game, it is absolutely no fun to get stomped and it is not fun to basically do nothing while one person on your team does all the worth either.

You know what kills a game faster for someone_
Not being able to play it

But you got to admit, looking at the browser full of games you cannot join gives you a wonderful feeling knowing someone, somewhere, is enjoying it

Not really...

[NBShoot_me]

Beemann, on March 20 2013 - 12:58 PM, said:

StrangerDanger, on March 20 2013 - 12:36 PM, said:

I don't understand how someone can like and want a game to succeed but then do things to hurt the game. Pub stomping hurt the game, it is absolutely no fun to get stomped and it is not fun to basically do nothing while one person on your team does all the worth either.

You know what kills a game faster for someone_
Not being able to play it

And this is basically the case for the newbs who get stomped so fast that they can't see all the pretty graphics with the exception of their corpse rag-dolling on the ground.  And since the game needs new people and new people generally start out as newbs...

Now we just need enough "elite" people so that being overly good doesn't mean you'll be forced to sit in a corner basking in your own gaming greatness as you watch other people play from afar (and a better system to keep the vets from trolling the newbs, if one must be kept).

EDIT: I'd rather just reduce XP and HC earned for killing people of a significantly lower level than yourself.. to the point of making it pointless to really go after them or even an entire hoard of newbies.

Edited by NBShoot_me, March 20 2013 - 04:26 PM.

[Beemann]

NBShoot_me, on March 20 2013 - 04:23 PM, said:

And this is basically the case for the newbs who get stomped so fast that they can't see all the pretty graphics with the exception of their corpse rag-dolling on the ground.  And since the game needs new people and new people generally start out as newbs...

Now we just need enough "elite" people so that being overly good doesn't mean you'll be forced to sit in a corner basking in your own gaming greatness as you watch other people play from afar (and a better system to keep the vets from trolling the newbs, if one must be kept).

EDIT: I'd rather just reduce XP and HC earned for killing people of a significantly lower level than yourself.. to the point of making it pointless to really go after them or even an entire hoard of newbies.

Playing the game > not playing the game
Additionally, separating the playerbase without the population to support the top end is kinda ridiculous.  A proper matchmaker and a standard server browser would work better than the current system

[Junkyard_Dog]

There is a rating system which prohibits high level players from Quick Matching or Browsing beginner games now. So just imagine if a genuine advanced player got into the hen house. It is possible with a friend join, however as an advanced player, I find the friend option almost useless, the changes to replace lost players automatically are working so well that it is highly unlikely an attempt to join a friend will work.

There are some games open to everyone, perhaps you are confusing them with the other games which have filters.

Pub Stomping is fairly normal in this game.
Even among Advanced players, there are a handful of people who seem magically gifted by the gods.
Add to that the fact that in Siege mode one Advanced Player who doesn't comprehend Siege Mode can destroy his entire team, and cause them to be pub stomped.

How could that be you say, This Ahat doesn't know what he is talking about I hear you thinking. How can one person destroy a team.

Its fairly simple, When you are down one man, someone else is double-teamed, and dies when he should not. The next man is tripple teamed, and the third quadruple teamed. Then they return to the battlefield one at a time and the cycle repeats.

[NBShoot_me]

Beemann, on March 20 2013 - 04:44 PM, said:

NBShoot_me, on March 20 2013 - 04:23 PM, said:

And this is basically the case for the newbs who get stomped so fast that they can't see all the pretty graphics with the exception of their corpse rag-dolling on the ground.  And since the game needs new people and new people generally start out as newbs...

Now we just need enough "elite" people so that being overly good doesn't mean you'll be forced to sit in a corner basking in your own gaming greatness as you watch other people play from afar (and a better system to keep the vets from trolling the newbs, if one must be kept).

EDIT: I'd rather just reduce XP and HC earned for killing people of a significantly lower level than yourself.. to the point of making it pointless to really go after them or even an entire hoard of newbies.

Playing the game > not playing the game
Additionally, separating the playerbase without the population to support the top end is kinda ridiculous.  A proper matchmaker and a standard server browser would work better than the current system

The problem with the match maker and the MMR system is that the MMR system should apply to one and not the other while there are no player hosted games (by this I mean, being able to initiate a new server, and possibly with your own set of customizations).  EDIT: MM games that we have now should enforce a MMR rating system, and probably should not allow people to utilize the friends list to join in, but that's if the MM games are separate from the server browser games.  One should be handled as PUG games, and the other as a more traditional FPS styled one.

I'm sure there are lots of happy newbs and outright bad players that are happy with the current system, but this isn't WoW, it's suppose to be a FPS.. it's definately not a deep simulator.  There are so many options the devs have that could be used rather than locking people out of entire servers because their MMR rating might be filled with either awesome or EU/AA camping XP.

They could increase the respawn time for people who's MMR rating is well above that of everyone else to the point of hilarity.  Maybe even grant more HC, or XP for downing a person who's MMR exclipses your own (and the inverse for someone who is obliterating people with tiny MMR scores in comparison for their own with the greatest of ease, while leaving MMR affects untouched so that you don't skew the ratings).

They could have the game force some balance into the average/overall/whatever MMR rating of each team so that you don't end up with awesome on one side and people who stare at the lense flare all day on the other.

As it is, the current system FORCES you to play badly so that you can just join a server and then slaps you across the face and throws you in a corner if you do too well or defiantly grab as much EU as you can while planting your metal *** on an AA/missle point.

When I do get to join MA and siege maps, I find myself sitting back in a SS doing the least possible amount of playing I can just to keep my MMR score in check.. a good system shouldn't cause this.


EDIT EDIT EDIT: and added to all this, the servers are about as stable as a two legged chair on a raft weathering a super storm in the  middle of the ocean.

Edited by NBShoot_me, March 20 2013 - 06:28 PM.