199 replies to this topic

[RentAKnight]

With the new MMR constraints there have already been plenty of complaints by veterans that they can no longer join as many populated servers as they could before the tightened MMR constraints.

The intention of the constraint is to separate out the different tiers of player skill to shield new players from veterans and to keep new players out of veteran games.

We all have witnessed OP after OP of new players complaining that the game is unfair, p2w, "mech levels matter", as they get stomped into the ground by veteran players.  These new players do not stick around playing Hawken for very much longer.

When a veteran plays among new players he very easily can ruin the gameplay experience for everyone in the server.  It's almost like having a god mode when comparing abilities.  AJK has a lovely screen shot of going 20-1 in a brand new CRT vs a bunch of lvl 20 mechs.  I'd argue that he was pub stomping and ruining gameplay for everyone in the server.  

A vetern will take fighting opportunities away from his inexperienced teammates and make game play abysmal for his inexperienced enemies.  Everyone suffers.

Because of the tighter MMR constrains veteran players may be unable to play in any populated server because they are filled with only inexperienced players.  I think the mechanic is working as expected and should continue to be enforced this way.


The veteran player that cannot find a high rated server should join an empty one and hope other high rated players come online, or should join on a friend and consciously not pub stomp everyone.

Keep in mind that other high rated players that are currently online will have the same problem you will and will have no choice but to join your empty game.  One of the problems before when the range was 500 was that all of the high level players were spread out across all of the servers, playing with a lot of lowbies.  Now high level players have no choice but to only play with themselves.


Those of you that have issue with this system which means at some times of day you won't be able to find a populated server, please justify why you should be allowed to play with newbies and ruin the gameplay experience of new players.

Edited by RentAKnight, March 15 2013 - 01:50 PM.

[OdinTheWise]

i am of the opinion that its fine if it doesnt happen all the time, the fastest way to get better is to play with better people to a certain extent. with with the mmr as it is, it can make geting a match very difficult for the high skill players who just want to jump in a match just to play a not so serious game.  i can see both sides of the argument as sometimes i just dont want to fight a high level match and just relax and have fun with the game. i think it is fine as long as we remember to respect others.  i have compleatly stomped pubies in DMs and been compleatly respectfull to them and gotten respect back.  so as long as we treat the lower skilled players, they will tollerate us back.

[Sylhiri]

I think we need to make a new rule: What happens in IRC, stays in IRC.

Also, as long as I can play the new map I can't complain.

Edited by Sylhiri, March 15 2013 - 09:19 AM.

[99CentTacos]

Ok, so make a few newb-only servers with tight rating constraints, if you're freaked-out about learning curve. Ratings should be advisories at best. This segregation fuzzy bunny is stupid in the extreme. What you really end up doing is alienating your best players. If you suck at the game, get better. Or play with friends. Stop coddling everyone. People crying pay-to-win are dumb anyway.

You are simply trading/gambling on new players at the expense of vets. The same vets who are probably dropping money on skins and cosmetics.

[RentAKnight]

Sylhiri, on March 15 2013 - 09:12 AM, said:

I think we need to make a new rule: What happens in IRC, stays in IRC.

I created this poll after reading the multiple NEW threads of players complaining that they can't join server because they're MMR is too high.

Even when the only way for high MMR players to play is with demonstrably worse players, they still want to.  My biggest issue is that most players won't play an UP mech or not go god mode on everyone and run them into the ground.  They'll typically rack up a ton of kills and feel smug about it.  They might even go post on the forums about how they made someone ragequit or achieved some ridiculous KD...

Edited by RentAKnight, March 15 2013 - 09:21 AM.

[ScHizNiK]

I am under the impression that Pub Stomping is when a team of players (skill level not important) stack to one team and group play.
Rather than a skilled player joining a public game.

The game doesn't have the population or clan/group based match maker to start clamping down on high rating players, other than making a new account good players are slowly going to get locked out from the game punishing them for just playing to there ability.

edit-

Just checked the server browser my MMR is only 1960 I can join a TDM server OR a Facility server that I get 300 Ping on.
So I basically have 1 server to choose from and its not even late.

Edited by ScHizNiK, March 15 2013 - 09:26 AM.

[Daronicus]

I think it'll take a little time for me to come to a decision on whether or not it's "ok," at least in a specific should-you-play-against-people-you-know-are-worse way. I think you make a good point about all the skilled players being spread out, and I'm optimistic that this new system will help fix that.  I was able to find a game of skilled players and had a blast last night, but I stayed in the same game the entire time, so I don't know how the availability was for other servers.  So I'd need a little time to see how it actually works out before making a call.

Actually!  An extra idea to make the situation even better:  maybe we could get a timer on the server browser_  Because if I see the advanced game only has 5 minutes remaining, I'd feel much more comfortable waiting for it to end and see if a spot opens up rather than just go to another game I maybe don't belong in. (Admittedly, timers really only work for TDM, so maybe a score, too_  Though then people might not join games with high disparity, which are often the games that need it the most...)

In a more abstract sense, I definitely think people should endeavor not to really stomp outclassed opponents if they end up in that situation.  I play with my girlfriend every now and then, and she's absolutely terrible at the game (she's way better than me at League of Legends, though, so it all works out ), so I pull back.  I play low-level mechs that I'm bad with.  I don't play with the same finesse.  I dodge less, heal less, let them get the kill that I probably could have avoided.  That sort of thing.  The only exception might be if the rest of my team is still getting destroyed, I might start actually trying to bring the scores a little more even.  I'm not sure that's actually a good excuse; people can feel free to say I'm just being a prideful jerk who can't stand losing

Edited by Daronicus, March 15 2013 - 11:45 AM.

[Alastor_Crow]

Stacking the team on purpose or refusing to balance it is the problem. Veteran players are usually familiar with one another based on previous encounters so it's up to them to balance it out. As much as I enjoy playing with the good players in my friend list, I also enjoy a good challenge so one of us has to switch if the game becomes terribly imbalanced. Of course, I'm guilty of participating in a few pubstomps but then again, who hasn't_ =p

[RentAKnight]

ScHizNiK, on March 15 2013 - 09:20 AM, said:

I am under the impression that Pub Stomping is when a team of players (skill level not important) stack to one team and group play.
Rather than a skilled player joining a public game.

Just checked the server browser my MMR is only 1960 I can join a TDM server OR a Facility server that I get 300 Ping on.
So I basically have 1 server to choose from and its not even late.

In Hawken, one player has the potential to ruin the gameplay experience for everyone.  You do not need a team of better players to make it obvious that gameplay balance is off.  One player, that is demonstrably better the rest, can ruin the game for everyone.

One player can pub stomp in Hawken.

Did you try joining an empty server.  Do you think that maybe there are 5 other high level players all complaining about not being able to join a game rather than starting a new one_

Edited by RentAKnight, March 15 2013 - 09:32 AM.

[ScHizNiK]

RentAKnight, on March 15 2013 - 09:31 AM, said:

ScHizNiK, on March 15 2013 - 09:20 AM, said:

I am under the impression that Pub Stomping is when a team of players (skill level not important) stack to one team and group play.
Rather than a skilled player joining a public game.

Just checked the server browser my MMR is only 1960 I can join a TDM server OR a Facility server that I get 300 Ping on.
So I basically have 1 server to choose from and its not even late.

In Hawken, one player has the potential to ruin the gameplay experience for everyone.  You do not need a team of better players to make it obvious that gameplay balance is off.  One player, that is demonstrably better the rest, can ruin the game for everyone.

One player can pub stomp in Hawken.

Did you try joining an empty server.  Do you think that maybe there are 5 other high level players all complaining about not being able to join a game rather than starting a new one_

I didn't join any servers as I haven't had time to play since patch.

I have to disagree with the 1 player statement, 2 bad players team playing have more power than 1 good player. The problem is players splitting off or chasing A classes not grouping and not communicating.
You don't need to be a good player to stomp you need team-play something that is a hell of a lot more overpowered than any mecha/item/optimisation.

[Blentech_Blender]

Yesterday something like that happen. I just waited a bit and very skill player join in and we had a blast!

So yes it is worth it.

[Daronicus]

RentAKnight, on March 15 2013 - 09:31 AM, said:

ScHizNiK, on March 15 2013 - 09:20 AM, said:

I am under the impression that Pub Stomping is when a team of players (skill level not important) stack to one team and group play.
Rather than a skilled player joining a public game.

Just checked the server browser my MMR is only 1960 I can join a TDM server OR a Facility server that I get 300 Ping on.
So I basically have 1 server to choose from and its not even late.

In Hawken, one player has the potential to ruin the gameplay experience for everyone.  You do not need a team of better players to make it obvious that gameplay balance is off.  One player, that is demonstrably better the rest, can ruin the game for everyone.

One player can pub stomp in Hawken.

Did you try joining an empty server.  Do you think that maybe there are 5 other high level players all complaining about not being able to join a game rather than starting a new one_

Well, admittedly, we maybe should find another term for what we're talking about here to avoid confusion.  Pubstomping is more having premade teams stomp pubbers.  If I play with my brother, who is much better than my girlfriend, and we always switch to play on the same team, that's pubstomping (and indeed we do not do this; we only switch to the other's team if it's losing horribly or occasionally if we think the teams are really unbalanced from the start).  I mean, if I'm a also a pubber, I'm not pubstomping per se.  Just playing against people much below my skill level.  Neither is exactly nice, but they're not the same thing, exactly, and probably result from different problems (and thus need different fixes).

Edit:  I originally said they were the same thing.  Oops.

Edited by Daronicus, March 15 2013 - 10:08 AM.

[RentAKnight]

ScHizNiK, on March 15 2013 - 09:43 AM, said:

I didn't join any servers as I haven't had time to play since patch.

I have to disagree with the 1 player statement, 2 bad players team playing have more power than 1 good player. The problem is players splitting off or chasing A classes not grouping and not communicating.
You don't need to be a good player to stomp you need team-play something that is a hell of a lot more overpowered than any mecha/item/optimisation.

AsianJoyKiller, on March 14 2013 - 09:24 AM, said:

But in all honestly, they do need a way of separating who have just started playing.
Maybe some sort of combination of a certain amount of time played in combination with MMR (basically if they exceed a certain rating before the time limit is up, they get pushed out of newbie servers anyway).

Nope only takes one better player to ruin gameplay for everyone.

His teammates couldn't get to double digits... AJK denied fighting opportunities by killing everyone.  He has 2x the XP of the 2nd guy on his own team.

Edited by RentAKnight, March 15 2013 - 09:57 AM.

[Daronicus]

RentAKnight, on March 15 2013 - 09:55 AM, said:

ScHizNiK, on March 15 2013 - 09:43 AM, said:

I didn't join any servers as I haven't had time to play since patch.

I have to disagree with the 1 player statement, 2 bad players team playing have more power than 1 good player. The problem is players splitting off or chasing A classes not grouping and not communicating.
You don't need to be a good player to stomp you need team-play something that is a hell of a lot more overpowered than any mecha/item/optimisation.

AsianJoyKiller, on March 14 2013 - 09:24 AM, said:

But in all honestly, they do need a way of separating who have just started playing.
Maybe some sort of combination of a certain amount of time played in combination with MMR (basically if they exceed a certain rating before the time limit is up, they get pushed out of newbie servers anyway).

Nope only takes one better player to ruin gameplay for everyone.

His teammates couldn't get to double digits... AJK denied fighting opportunities by killing everyone.  He has 2x the XP of the 2nd guy on his own team.

Regarding better separation of new players:  it might be worthwhile to lower the starting rating.  I mean, we should let this play out a bit to see where people stabilize at, but if it continues to be a problem, that seems like a pretty easy way to separate them out from the veterans.  It doesn't take too long to raise your rating, so people who pick it up quickly should move through the ranks without too much trouble.  I'm not sure it's a bad idea to have new players start out playing those below the top 50%.  It might be a little mean for those less-than-average players, but it allows people to learn the game in a non-stressful environment and get the basics down before encountering highly skilled players.

Edit:  It's sort of a way to have newb servers when we don't necessarily have the incoming population to actually support newb servers.

Edited by Daronicus, March 15 2013 - 10:21 AM.

[OdinTheWise]

i have been in JJK's place before and no one complained, if you treat them with respect, you get respected back.  less people rage and we all have fun.  but that is just my experiance.

also, it would be nice if we got a full list of empty servers in the server list instead what we have now, or at least some better filters or something

Edited by OdinTheWise, March 15 2013 - 10:08 AM.

[ScHizNiK]

Yes I could do the same in a public game when the opposition just roves about, if those players had stuck to groups of 2 Asian would not have gained those kills, he can out rambo them.

Hawken has a decently high TTK this means that all those COD players who score there kills by camping come to Hawken and fail hard, the best way to counter this is to teach players to group play and use each other to help fall back and repair, in high TTK games team play is king.

Also at the moment match making doesn't seem to balance teams It just brings an average to the server, iv had to rebalance games from the start because I can see the random shuffle has pushed all the good players to one side.



Still I wouldn't use the term "Pub Stomping" I would say its more a case of "high skill players dominating public play" meh not as catchy but oh well.

Edited by ScHizNiK, March 15 2013 - 10:13 AM.

[burns1124]

I have been on the receiving end of a one man pubstomp show.  I have been the guy being a one man pubstomp show.  It does happen, especially at non-peak playtimes when you have people using "All Regions".  It's usually not as bad in TDH, but MA or siege become unplayable when one guy has a big skill gap between him and the other team trying to kill him (or sit in base and shoot the battleship like nabs, god just take the fuzzy bunny AA!!!!!!!!111111111:ichi)

This isn't LoL, there is no premades outside IRC, and those are strictly moderated in an attempt to provide the veterans with the games they want, against opponents that provide a challenge.  This IMHO is the way it should be.  Joining on friends can provide folks with an edge if they choose to just stack the team with folks they know will fuzzy bunny a team of Freds, but that's also part of the game as it is.  Like I said in the other thread, this was something we asked for, now the Vets need to take a step back and realize they can't just go trololololol all over some newbies for their daily EXP, they are gonna have to work harder for it.

The server browser is little more than a shortcut past QM relying on the user's own conscious to guide them to a fairly matched server.  If you have a 1800+ plus rating and feel that is an accurate reflection of your ability, there is no reason you should want to play in a 15-1700 rated server, and should make your own, wait for others, and make a sammich/have a smoke/fap/do laundry whatever.  

If you say "OMG I CANT PLAY WTF GAME BROKEDED" then you just look like a child with no patience for Mommy to unwrap your happy meal toy.  Make Advanced games and let the browser do it's job.  If not, go outside for an hour and come back when people are out of work and can play.

[Sethendal]

I think the answer depends on your FPS upbringing.  I come from a very strict Quake 3 background where this was the expectation and what, I feel, made me a better Quake 3 player.

I don't feel that veteran players are denying gameplay by simply being better than other players.  I feel it gives me a reason to improve my skill when I get to see a real-world example of someone that is miles ahead of my skill level.  

However, again, this all depends on how you prefer your FPS as having a rank/level does imply to some degree, filtered match-making versus Quake 3 where it was trial-by-fire to a degree.  

Newb question.  Does the MMR system only prohibit being matched into a lower/higher MMR server or does it actively prohibit someone from joining a low/high MMR server in the browser as well_

Edited by Sethendal, March 15 2013 - 10:27 AM.

[ScHizNiK]

I don't think anyone is arguing against balance, the whole reason I am in a clan is so we can scrim organised teams. I believe the way to improve is to challenge yourself.

The issue is "Do we have the population to make MM that strict" And at the moment I say we don't, if I fancy a game of Hawken I don't want to have to wait for 30 mins to get one. We need to advertise the game to others and teach the current players we have. These "pro" players are good because they have put lots of time into a game they love, essentially you will be locking the most dedicated players out of being able to play.

Edited by ScHizNiK, March 15 2013 - 10:28 AM.