199 replies to this topic

[RentAKnight]

Sethendal, on March 15 2013 - 10:25 AM, said:

I think the answer depends on your FPS upbringing.  I come from a very strict Quake 3 background where this was the expectation and what, I feel, made me a better Quake 3 player.

I don't feel that veteran players are denying gameplay by simply being better than other players.  I feel it gives me a reason to improve my skill when I get to see a real-world example of someone that is miles ahead of my skill level.  

However, again, this all depends on how you prefer your FPS as having a rank/level does imply to some degree, filtered match-making versus Quake 3 where it was trial-by-fire to a degree.  

Newb question.  Does the MMR system only prohibit being matched into a lower/higher MMR server or does it actively prohibit someone from joining a low/high MMR server in the browser as well_

The reason quake isn't successful today is because players that have been playing it for years make it impossible for a new players to learn in an encouraging environment.   Back when EVERYONE was new to fps games and no one had mastered the deep mechanics there was less a variety of players at different skill levels and a new player could learn among the vast majority of other new fps players.

These days anyone with YEARS of fps experience is going to have a HUGE leg up on someone who is just starting their fps career.  Player separation is necessary today in a way that it wasn't necessary 10 years ago.

Edited by RentAKnight, March 15 2013 - 10:32 AM.

[burns1124]

Sethendal, on March 15 2013 - 10:25 AM, said:

I think the answer depends on your FPS upbringing.  I come from a very strict Quake 3 background where this was the expectation and what, I feel, made me a better Quake 3 player.

I don't feel that veteran players are denying gameplay by simply being better than other players.  I feel it gives me a reason to improve my skill when I get to see a real-world example of someone that is miles ahead of my skill level.  

However, again, this all depends on how you prefer your FPS as having a rank/level does imply to some degree, filtered match-making versus Quake 3 where it was trial-by-fire to a degree.

While I agree that it should be trial by fire, sadly the state of gaming today does not really work with that.  There are so man f2p games out there if a new person downloads a game, and summarily gets curb stomped for the next 3 hours they are trying to learn the game, it is more than likely not going to be fun for them.  Why play something that isn't fun, and they moe along to the next f2p game of the week.

I think the older folks with experience in those games like Q3, UT, Halo:CE, etc rely on the vets to bring up our skills, but the CoD kids can't deal with it and cry on forums and will put down HWK for being p2W or some such other nonsense.  


@Schiz I understand, and to be honest I would be more than a little annoyed having to wait more than 15-20 minutes in a lobby alone, but it is what happens.  Even beefore the server browser if you wanted to play MA or Siege on US East you might have had a pretty long wait in store.  HWK needs a higher population, but think about who we'd get, more and more of the entitled, S-talking mouth breathers from games such as CoD, or worse script kids from games like WarZ that think it's fun to not actually have to aim at anything to get kills.

Edited by burns1124, March 15 2013 - 10:34 AM.

[draco7891]

The poll is a bit of a loaded question, but there is definitely a place for being able to join lower-ranked servers.

Some days, you might have a bad day at work and want to put in a few silly games to take your mind off of things. But with a restrictive MMR gap, your rating means you must always be playing against players at 100% of your skill level. You're always required to be on top of your game, or your rating tanks. Then, the next time you play and want to compete at your skill level, you can't until you regrind your rating.

This is the fundamental issue with a stats and rating system in the first place. It doesn't take into account player desire or intent. Tim Tebow can't play a little intramural tournament, he must always play NFL. Tiger Woods can't take some time to relax on the back 9, he's always got to chase that jacket. If they don't, they'll be shut out from the competition in which they otherwise would be able to play.

MMR, and especially a restrictive gap leaves room only for the players who play Hawken exclusively to compete, not those who wish a little breathing room from time to time (and who have the good graces to slowplay and not stomp everything all the time).

Draco

[RentAKnight]

draco7891, on March 15 2013 - 10:37 AM, said:

The poll is a bit of a loaded question, but there is definitely a place for being able to join lower-ranked servers.

It's definitely loaded.  Controversy means more views and more opinions!!  I'm really glad to see a lot of intelligent discussion going on.

draco7891, on March 15 2013 - 10:37 AM, said:

Some days, you might have a bad day at work and want to put in a few silly games to take your mind off of things. But with a restrictive MMR gap, your rating means you must always be playing against players at 100% of your skill level. You're always required to be on top of your game, or your rating tanks. Then, the next time you play and want to compete at your skill level, you can't until you regrind your rating.

This is why there are unranked servers.  Also consider creating a smurf account.

Edited by RentAKnight, March 15 2013 - 10:41 AM.

[vVolfgang]

Man, back in the day I never complained about this. I took it like a man and kept playing and now I've gotten a lot better. You aren't a rock being constantly pounded on, learn to play better, switch teams even if you can't take the beating or you are stuck with crappy teammates. LEARN AND ADAPT. Though my mmr is 1900 now and it definitely is harder for me to join games since there are very unpopulated servers.

I'd agree with some of the sentiments shared by a few in this thread already when they said it is part of the experience of online games. Obviously you are going to be better than some, and worst that others. Essentially you could be stomping on some noobs even worst than yourself and to them that would be stomping but you wouldn't complain now would you_ If the tables were turned, then volia - off to the forums!

[burns1124]

draco7891, on March 15 2013 - 10:37 AM, said:

The poll is a bit of a loaded question, but there is definitely a place for being able to join lower-ranked servers.

Some days, you might have a bad day at work and want to put in a few silly games to take your mind off of things. But with a restrictive MMR gap, your rating means you must always be playing against players at 100% of your skill level. You're always required to be on top of your game, or your rating tanks. Then, the next time you play and want to compete at your skill level, you can't until you regrind your rating.

This is the fundamental issue with a stats and rating system in the first place. It doesn't take into account player desire or intent. Tim Tebow can't play a little intramural tournament, he must always play NFL. Tiger Woods can't take some time to relax on the back 9, he's always got to chase that jacket. If they don't, they'll be shut out from the competition in which they otherwise would be able to play.

MMR, and especially a restrictive gap leaves room only for the players who play Hawken exclusively to compete, not those who wish a little breathing room from time to time (and who have the good graces to slowplay and not stomp everything all the time).

Draco

There's a few simple solutions to your proposed issues:

1.) Smurf Accounts
2.) Unranked servers
3.) One day of week that ratings do not matter/change (see Day[9]'s Funday Monday)

If you think professional atheletes don't play in games that don't matter, let me direct you to watch any All-Star, Pro-Bowl, or charity game that's ever been played.  These people also do things in off seasons to keep their bodies in shape/reflexes tight etc.  Pro gamers play other games, or play on smurfs when they want to explore emergent gameplay, or just fuzzy bunny around.

There is no way a online game MMR is going to rate your "intent".  Restrictive gaps are in place so that a new player community has the time and practice to actually be able to play with veterans, and this is a correct way to do so IMHO.  You shouldn't play too far below your skill level, even when you want a relaxing time, because in the end, it just makes you worse when you want to be on your A game.

[Kaelek]

Now RAK does make some valid points but it is incredibly unfair for veteran players to get the shaft like this and I will explain why here:

My player score is 1890 and I guess they decreased the difference between scores for you to join the server... Now my servers list is like 75% blacked out because the games are mostly 1400 - 1600. So my choices of servers is almost nothing and I can't even join any servers right now because all the servers at my level are currently full... this really blows BIG TIME. I have posted this same message in several different places because I am totally freaking out...

I usually play TDM or DM, occasionally siege, and rarely missile assault. But with the new blockouts I can only play on about two TDM servers, one to zero DM servers, one or two siege games, and maybe one missile assault game. Basically, I am blocked from roughly 85 to 90% of games because of my skill rating, which I find to be incredibly unfair. I haven't even been able to play Hawken today for more than ten minutes because the game I was in fell apart and died, then I couldn't find another server to play on as a result. Then, in desperation, I used the match making system and it made a new game, but after waiting 10 minutes, only one other person showed up, so I quit (Or rather Ragequit) the game. Game Over for today I guess. Hopefully they will fix this, if not, I doubt I'll be playing very much Hawken in the future. Although, I still haven't played Borderlands 2, so I guess I'll give that a shot while I'm waiting for a fix. I'm going to stop complaining now because I've been doing it all morning and haven't seen any results

So basically either I lower my skill rating on purpose, or I am blocked from almost ALL games. This is incredibly unfair, because obviously since it is a rating system, above average players are not as numerous because they are ABOVE the AVERAGE. Especially, when you are getting into the 1900s to 2000s like myself. So, that is going to be a very small percentage of the players and they will be unable to play in the VAST majority of games.

FIX:

Change it to +-500 or at least 400 for people above skill rating 1800 - 1850, and if that person is 1450 - 1650, they get a large underdog bonus and faster increase for their skill rating for killing the 1700 - 2000 player. You cannot hold everyone's hand forever, eventually you will have to let go. I think the +- 200 makes a lot of sense for new players or just simply below average players, but you cannot basically punish people for doing well in the game by limiting them to 4 to 6 games tops that they can join, which obviously are going to be always full for the most part. PLEASE try to make this change, or I won't be able to play this game anymore, and not because I don't like the game but simply because I can't find any games to join.

Here is an SS of the vast amount of servers I can join, <cough> and notice it's ALL the USA servers. From this list there are 3 games I can join possibly that actually have people in them out of oh maybe 25 or 30 servers: http://postimage.org/image/40vohbpil/ and here:   http://postimage.org/image/umx638uxb/

I have posted this elsewhere but I believe it needs to be said on this thread as well.

Edit: I'm not advocating that beginners play with veterans but average to slightly above average players can handle playing with advanced players. If anything they will be able to observe how they play and as a result may become better themselves. Also, the player skill rating does not mean everything, I have friends that are very skilled at this game but only have a mediocre skill rating. I do not think it is unreasonable for advanced players to be blocked from nearly 85% of games just because they are good at the game.

Edited by Kaelek, March 15 2013 - 10:49 AM.

[Toryne]

RentAKnight, on March 15 2013 - 09:55 AM, said:

ScHizNiK, on March 15 2013 - 09:43 AM, said:

I didn't join any servers as I haven't had time to play since patch.

I have to disagree with the 1 player statement, 2 bad players team playing have more power than 1 good player. The problem is players splitting off or chasing A classes not grouping and not communicating.
You don't need to be a good player to stomp you need team-play something that is a hell of a lot more overpowered than any mecha/item/optimisation.

AsianJoyKiller, on March 14 2013 - 09:24 AM, said:

But in all honestly, they do need a way of separating who have just started playing.
Maybe some sort of combination of a certain amount of time played in combination with MMR (basically if they exceed a certain rating before the time limit is up, they get pushed out of newbie servers anyway).

Nope only takes one better player to ruin gameplay for everyone.

His teammates couldn't get to double digits... AJK denied fighting opportunities by killing everyone.  He has 2x the XP of the 2nd guy on his own team.

Look at the KDR of the rest team including Assists.. Teamwork > Individuals im sorry but 1 Good player can swing the tide yes but teammates working together and playing as a team will wreck 1 good player + their bad team.

Edited by Toryne, March 15 2013 - 10:48 AM.

[Manoloco]

Beginners should be protected, but completely tiering the servers_, thats completely unecessary, medium level players can handle advanced players, medium level players will not let themselves be massacred, they will be able to play and learn.

I liked when i got into the game that there were a lot of good players already, but thats my personal opinion, so lets not take that into account for this.

if you notice, the complaints about player levels have risen since the level tiering started, before that, mostly newcomers complained, medium level players didnt complain remotely as much as they do now, you teach a baby to cry when it wants something, the baby will definitely cry more.

i havent voted in the poll because the main question is aggressively proposed, pubstomping is only one issue not the final issue at all about tiering, if i dont agree completely with the tiering measure and think that only beginners should be protected but the rest of servers should be open, i have no choice to vote, not even the not sure option.

[Fluffy_Kittens]

well i stopped playing the old FPS due to hacking,not player skill.
having someone with an aimbot completely drained a sever in the few minutes it took people to realize tha they were playing.
other  more discrete clientside hacks and addons were harder to detect, but after reading about how to spot them, it began to be apparent which players used them based on how they got kills.
over time some games just died, since it was just not worth it to play.
i stopped playing a large number of FPS because of that factor.

MM is a funny beast,
no matter what you do there will always be a group of people who hate it.
other player groups, the ones who like to exploit things, will always try to fin a way around anything to make their life easier.  it will happen no matter what.  and in beta/alpha, you kind of want them do to it, since actions like that will depict how the game needs to be changed.
also getting pub stomped is not as bad as it seems, some people are not objective enough (or competitive enough) to do things differently to see if it is a better way.  many players just play the same over and over again, and the more vocal ones will complain that the  game sucks. it's too hard, XXX is OP, etc.  

i do agree with the OP's suggestion about perhaps making an entry level MM class as the learning curve is a bit rough, and it's hard to learn how to do anything experimental if your always getting one or two shotted.

but in my opinion, games like this one require teamwork to be sucessfull, so the game front end has a bit of social options, VoP, chat, but thats about it.  if someone talks and makes a rough plan, then nobody listens, it is not sucessfull, but if a few people coordinate then it is greatly sucessfull.
and if a group of people use a third party program (VENT, TS3) to work together, it usually is a bit more streamlined.

[RentAKnight]

Manoloco, on March 15 2013 - 10:49 AM, said:

Beginners should be protected, but completely tiering the servers_, thats completely unecessary, medium level players can handle advanced players, medium level players will not let themselves be massacred, they will be able to play and learn.

I liked when i got into the game that there were a lot of good players already, but thats my personal opinion, so lets not take that into account for this.

if you notice, the complaints about player levels have risen since the level tiering started, before that, mostly newcomers complained, medium level players didnt complain remotely as much as they do now, you teach a baby to cry when it wants something, the baby will definitely cry more.

i havent voted in the poll because the main question is aggressively proposed, pubstomping is only one issue not the final issue at all about tiering, if i dont agree completely with the tiering measure and think that only beginners should be protected but the rest of servers should be open, i have no choice to vote, not even the not sure option.

Good input.  I propose you create another poll specifically about the tiering system.  I have a poll up right now specifically about the optimal MMR range restriction.  Another poll about how servers should be tiered could be useful.  It sounds like you have some good ideas.

[RentAKnight]

Toryne, on March 15 2013 - 10:46 AM, said:

RentAKnight, on March 15 2013 - 09:55 AM, said:

ScHizNiK, on March 15 2013 - 09:43 AM, said:

I didn't join any servers as I haven't had time to play since patch.

I have to disagree with the 1 player statement, 2 bad players team playing have more power than 1 good player. The problem is players splitting off or chasing A classes not grouping and not communicating.
You don't need to be a good player to stomp you need team-play something that is a hell of a lot more overpowered than any mecha/item/optimisation.

AsianJoyKiller, on March 14 2013 - 09:24 AM, said:

But in all honestly, they do need a way of separating who have just started playing.
Maybe some sort of combination of a certain amount of time played in combination with MMR (basically if they exceed a certain rating before the time limit is up, they get pushed out of newbie servers anyway).

Nope only takes one better player to ruin gameplay for everyone.

His teammates couldn't get to double digits... AJK denied fighting opportunities by killing everyone.  He has 2x the XP of the 2nd guy on his own team.

Look at the KDR of the rest team including Assists.. Teamwork > Individuals im sorry but 1 Good player can swing the tide yes but teammates working together and playing as a team will wreck 1 good player + their bad team.

Only AJK could comment on what was actually happening in that game.  To suggest that his team was using teamwork while the other team wasn't is a stretch.  At low level play you cannot assume or expect any kind of organization to be occurring.

[Manoloco]

btw forgot to mention, and this is something that concerns my own convenience (who will look out for me if i dont__):

i have spots during the day that i can play, work and thesis take most of my time, i even play in the late night hours even when tired because i like the game, and i too have the same right to play it as any other, new or vet, waiting for someone to get on an empty server would be too unfair, and take too long for me to be able to wait.

I like helping others, but do i have to sacrifice myself everytime for that_ i dont think thats necessary, specially since tweaking the solution a bit could make almost everyone happy.

Edited by Manoloco, March 15 2013 - 11:00 AM.

[nokari]

I'm all for having a separate "noob" server for beginners and opening up the rest a bit more than the 200 +/- limit. The first evening after this patch I found myself incapable of playing any Siege matches (I wanted to level my new Bruiser) because there were only 3 choices: 1 12/12 advanced rank match I couldn't join, 1 medium rank match I couldn't join because my rank was too high, and 1 empty unranked match. I could only join a couple of MAs or TDMs, which I didn't want to do. The problem was that even though I could join the empty Siege match, there are way too few people to join with me. I sat in there for nearly 10 minutes and only 1 other guy showed up, then almost immediately left. I could have possibly invited a couple people I know, but the friends list wasn't available at the time.

I'd argue that it's a less fun for us higher ranked players now because we have less opportunities to play and when we can play with people in our rank range, we don't always want to because they turn into long drawn out matches that are an hour long. Yes it's a good challenge, but it's aggravating if all you want to do is have a couple quick matches and not bang your head constantly against an enemy endlessly.
And as others have said, I think the population right now is too low to support the higher ranked players. It's basically a pyramid where you have lots of low ranked players, a good amount of medium rank players, and few high ranked players.

Edited by nokari, March 15 2013 - 11:11 AM.

[AsianJoyKiller]

Pubstomping is something that will happen no matter how big or small the population. It is a fact of multiplayer gaming.

I do it myself, not because I want to, but because I'm forced to due to the games MM system and a small population. It's not particularly fun for me, and probably even less fun for the others in the match.

[RentAKnight]

AsianJoyKiller, on March 15 2013 - 11:19 AM, said:

Pubstomping is something that will happen no matter how big or small the population. It is a fact of multiplayer gaming.

I do it myself, not because I want to, but because I'm forced to due to the games MM system and a small population. It's not particularly fun for me, and probably even less fun for the others in the match.

Well now it's really hard to do in Hawken.  Smurfing or joining on a friend are the only ways now.  The real question is, is the constricting system justifiable_

Edited by RentAKnight, March 15 2013 - 11:23 AM.

[RentAKnight]

holy my goodness this post needs to be viewed more:

burns1124, on March 15 2013 - 08:53 AM, said:

Kaelek, on March 15 2013 - 08:13 AM, said:

I usually play TDM or DM, occasionally siege, and rarely missile assault. But with the new blockouts I can only play on about two TDM servers, one to zero DM servers, one or two siege games, and maybe one missile assault game. Basically, I am blocked from roughly 85 to 90% of games because of my skill rating, which I find to be incredibly unfair. I haven't even been able to play Hawken today for more than ten minutes because the game I was in fell apart and died, then I couldn't find another server to play on as a result. Then, in desperation, I used the match making system and it made a new game, but after waiting 10 minutes, only one other person showed up, so I quit (Or rather Ragequit) the game. Game Over for today I guess. Hopefully they will fix this, if not, I doubt I'll be playing very much Hawken in the future. Although, I still haven't played Borderlands 2, so I guess I'll give that a shot while I'm waiting for a fix. I'm going to stop complaining now because I've been doing it all morning and haven't seen any results.

What the fuzzy bunny do you expect to be done_  An emergency patch labeled "Patch so Pilot Kaelek can pub stomp again" Scapes to make a post at 6:30 AM PST addressing your specific troubles with finding games of relative equal skill specifically to you_  I'm sorry but that's a terribly entitled and rediculous opinion to have.  The game is not at fault here, the players are.  

Let's have a history lesson:

December 2012: OB begins, there is no server browser, and people playing since Alphas are chucked into games full of fresh pilots with no clue how to play, and run riot.  People complain and complain here on these very forums about how unfair it is to fight higher level mechs, cry pay to win, and all sorts of other silliness.

January 2013:  Reaper is released, people cry it's the most OP thing since sliced bread.  Testing is done and it is found to actually be the weakest mech in game, crying about OP A classes continues because of explosive knock back, and the prevelance of HEAT cannon users.

Ferurary 2013: Veteran pilots flock to IRC scrims in an attempt to find games they can feel are "fair" or "balanced" people still cry any time a mech higher level than them kills them in matches, more p2w accusations, and general poorly constructed complaints continue.  Crys for the return of the server browser are reaching a critical mass.  SS is buffed into godhood, discussion of TTK and alpha strikes capable of "insta-gib" prevail on forums.  

March 2013: Raider is OP (read: released, mass crying ensues about alpha strikes when SS have been 3 shoting people for a month), Server Browser is reinstituted, MMr range is tooo wide, may veterans wish to see the MMR range tightened for good reason, to keep the vets in games together, and keep the new folk in their own.  Mass crying about ratings blocking games ensues a mere 12 hours after patch to tighten MMR restrictions ensues.

We asked for this, now we have it.  If you can't find games with the browser, use QM, or join on friend problem solved.  If you don't have anyone on your friend list, use VOIP, talk to people you play with, and make friends.  Or, get some RL friends with skype to DL hawken, and go nub it up with them while teaching them how to play.

[AsianJoyKiller]

RentAKnight, on March 15 2013 - 11:23 AM, said:

AsianJoyKiller, on March 15 2013 - 11:19 AM, said:

Pubstomping is something that will happen no matter how big or small the population. It is a fact of multiplayer gaming.

I do it myself, not because I want to, but because I'm forced to due to the games MM system and a small population. It's not particularly fun for me, and probably even less fun for the others in the match.

Well now it's really hard to do in Hawken.  Smurfing or joining on a friend are the only ways now.  The real question is, is the constricting system justifiable_

To a certain extent. However, at the moment all they've done is make the game literally unplayable for skilled people.

[RentAKnight]

AsianJoyKiller, on March 15 2013 - 11:29 AM, said:

RentAKnight, on March 15 2013 - 11:23 AM, said:

AsianJoyKiller, on March 15 2013 - 11:19 AM, said:

Pubstomping is something that will happen no matter how big or small the population. It is a fact of multiplayer gaming.

I do it myself, not because I want to, but because I'm forced to due to the games MM system and a small population. It's not particularly fun for me, and probably even less fun for the others in the match.

Well now it's really hard to do in Hawken.  Smurfing or joining on a friend are the only ways now.  The real question is, is the constricting system justifiable_

To a certain extent. However, at the moment all they've done is make the game literally unplayable for skilled people.

"literally unplayable" is a little dramatic.  Anyone can still go shoot drones in the tutorial.  What players want is competition.  That competition won't be found in a 1500 rated server.

Edited by RentAKnight, March 15 2013 - 11:32 AM.

[GN010]

One player can ruin everybody's game.. that's the one who will do ragequit, then the pubstomping begins. I cant confirm the player's score mentioned in OP is prior to the implementation of player rating or not unless he says so. Just use server browser. the current patch reduced the player skill limit to +/-300 if I read that right.