119 replies to this topic

[Leonhardt]

Phos, on May 17 2013 - 09:29 PM, said:

MartyFriedman, on May 17 2013 - 08:31 PM, said:

vonbach, on May 17 2013 - 07:23 PM, said:

Its really not that complex. This game is all about mobility and C classes aren't that mobile and A classes are.
A classes have just as much firepower and more importantly they can apply it better because their quicker.
A good example is the infiltrator I was testing I'd zoom to the top of the scoreboard by simply shooting the grenade
launcher and running away when they got sick of it then shooting again. No advanced playing on my part at all.
Try doing that with the Grenadier.  A classes definitely need some type of weakness because right now they really don't have one.

I really wanted to just leave this conversation alone after page 2, but have you thought that maybe you just suck with C classes_  Or that you can't aim properly, can't lead, or maybe your just impatient_  A classes have mobility sure, but they also have a dodge cooldown, which is the time you're supposed to smack them with everything you have, the same goes for every class.  You're making it seem like it's impossible to kill one, which has about as much truth as the Tooth Fairy and Santa.  Sure, the A classes have good firepower, and they're quick and small.  But if you know how to fight one they're incredibly easy to take down.  All it takes is some trigger discipline and like I said, firing the secondary on the dodge cooldown.
Also, this picture:

was from a couple nights ago.  The enemy team was originally comprised of 2 Infiltrators, 1 Berserker, 1 Tech, and a couple B classes, my team was the same as in the picture, but with another Infiltrator instead of the Tech.  We were winning and it was something like 1400<2200/2300-something and both teams had 2 ships launched.  Then at about the 20 minute mark or so their team switched to what it is in the picture.  For some odd reason, that team of 3 C classes, who should have been at a massive disadvantage, I mean, my team had 5 A classes on it, made an awesome comeback.  Their comeback was in part because they're all kickass C class players who know how to play them correctly and as a team.

That screenshot is from siege.  In any other game mode the A classes could just run away from the C's and they'd never be able to catch them.

Objective based gametypes are the cornerstone of the game. Pointing out that TDM or DM is slightly broken as far as team tactics and incentives goes has little to do with class balance and everything to do with current meta incentives and the spawning system.

[Yaie]

Now, I'm not going to read every single post in this, as most of them are half a page long (that's a good thing, good feedback), but here's my own thoughts.

The only mechs I play on a regular basis are my Raider and Grenadier. I also don't play hardly any of the game modes except for Deathmatch, where a C-Class like my Gren would be at a huge disadvantage due to the amount of A-Classes that are used in the mode. C-Classes are slow and have absolutely huge hit-boxes, where-as, like you said, A-Classes have much more mobility and half the hit-box while still having some pretty decent firepower. The only thing is, they're completely predictable. You know for a FACT that that Infiltrator in front of you is going to strafe every chance he gets, so it's extremely easy to just wait for the strafe and smack them with all you've got. This balances out most of the advantages they have. They even have a base 550 HP, and compared to the 900 of my Gren, they don't stand much of a chance. Personally, I can't hit anything that flies, if the enemy in front of me decided to hover for 15 seconds, that's 15 seconds of free damage on me. But as soon as they drop, which is also predictable, I can hit them with a Det, GL, and HEAT shot, leaving them with little to none health left. The A-Classes are completely balanced, and so are the rest of the classes. And if a C-Class is getting killed by a Technician, that player needs to drop it and switch to a different mech, because that's pitiful.

[PiVoR]

And what if A-class user will run circles around you and counter your movement so you cant get an aim on him_

[Yaie]

PiVoR, on May 18 2013 - 12:15 PM, said:

And what if A-class user will run circles around you and counter your movement so you cant get an aim on him_

C-Classes are slow, yes, but not too slow to where you can't strafe out of the circle. Turning on a dime is probably the dumbest thing anyone can do against any class.

[MartyFriedman]

PiVoR, on May 18 2013 - 12:15 PM, said:

And what if A-class user will run circles around you and counter your movement so you cant get an aim on him_

Side dash, then lead the secondary or shoot at the ground, it's not that hard of a concept to grasp.  Not to mention if they truly are running circles around someone that also means they aren't firing, if they're strafing it just makes it even easier.

[AsianJoyKiller]

Yaie, on May 18 2013 - 08:58 AM, said:

The A-Classes are completely balanced, and so are the rest of the classes.

That's just not true, from an objective standpoint.

Both A and B classes benefit a great amount from the recent health buff than C-Classes. Only C-Classes have abilities that are actively detrimental to their survival.

[Yaie]

AsianJoyKiller, on May 18 2013 - 02:50 PM, said:

Yaie, on May 18 2013 - 08:58 AM, said:

The A-Classes are completely balanced, and so are the rest of the classes.

That's just not true, from an objective standpoint.

Both A and B classes benefit a great amount from the recent health buff than C-Classes. Only C-Classes have abilities that are actively detrimental to their survival.

The buff to health did not change anything except the TTK. They could add 300 HP to each mech and the only thing that changed would be the TTK. As far as abilities go, yes, the C-Classes drew the short straw, but using C-Classes more than the others, they don't need one to excel. That actually goes for any mech. Abilities help, but they're circumstantial.

[AsianJoyKiller]

Yaie, on May 18 2013 - 07:17 PM, said:

AsianJoyKiller, on May 18 2013 - 02:50 PM, said:

Yaie, on May 18 2013 - 08:58 AM, said:

The A-Classes are completely balanced, and so are the rest of the classes.

That's just not true, from an objective standpoint.

Both A and B classes benefit a great amount from the recent health buff than C-Classes. Only C-Classes have abilities that are actively detrimental to their survival.

The buff to health did not change anything except the TTK. They could add 300 HP to each mech and the only thing that changed would be the TTK. As far as abilities go, yes, the C-Classes drew the short straw, but using C-Classes more than the others, they don't need one to excel. That actually goes for any mech. Abilities help, but they're circumstantial.

Except a flat health buff does not benefit each weight class equally.
A-Classes received a 10% buff, B-Classes a 7% buff and C-Classes a mere 5% buff. That's right, C-Classes got half the buff that A-Classes did.

As for circumstantial abilities...
Tell me, which ability on A or B classes makes any of them easier to kill_ Name a single ability on the lighter weight classes that makes you weaker than you would be normally_ Which ability makes you more vulnerable when you activate them_ What A/B class ability requires you to be in a perfect situation for it to be of use_

That's right. None.
The greatest drawback to activating your ability on an A or B class at the wrong time is wasting an activation. Every single one of them simply make you more powerful or useful when activated, no matter the situation. At worst, they do nothing.

The same can not be said of any of the turret modes. At best, you need to be in the perfect situation to gain any advantage from activating it. At worst, activating turret mode is suicide.

[M4st0d0n]

Well let the top rated 2000+ A-classes play only DM/TDM on 2000+ servers and stick with my rocketeer in 1500+ in Siege or MA. It's only beta after all. Castles made of sand. But please don't cancel turret mode. Because it's a great idea and it's cool. I don't play Hawken because it's well balanced but because it's a great stylish dystopian future with mechwarrios, and I don't play Mechwarrior Online because it lacks soul and style, nor Planetside2 because the guys looks like a Perry Rhodan cheesy cosplay.

[M4st0d0n]

And I play C-Class rocketeer because it's a fat bulky rusty mech with homing missiles!

[Krellus]

Well there is some kind of buff coming for turret mode/c classes, the devs confirmed it in a recent post (since the last patch).

[dorobo]

Lol try using a class in a bazzar map full of reapers and ss's. Also when playing siege if the team using c classes manages to get in to AA first and make defence without holes try to break in using an a class

[KejiGoto]

Leonhardt, on May 12 2013 - 07:38 PM, said:

I was watching the game you were in where Weezl3 destroyed you and your team with a flak scout (he is my roomate and is literally in the room next to mine).

Someone else with a roommate who plays Hawken_ That gets you a like!

[Leonhardt]

KejiGoto, on June 11 2013 - 05:53 PM, said:

Leonhardt, on May 12 2013 - 07:38 PM, said:

I was watching the game you were in where Weezl3 destroyed you and your team with a flak scout (he is my roomate and is literally in the room next to mine).

Someone else with a roommate who plays Hawken_ That gets you a like!

Yeah I forced him to play and now he is hooked. I had to teach him quite a bit, but he fell in love with the game just like I did.

[KejiGoto]

Leonhardt, on June 11 2013 - 05:59 PM, said:

KejiGoto, on June 11 2013 - 05:53 PM, said:

Leonhardt, on May 12 2013 - 07:38 PM, said:

I was watching the game you were in where Weezl3 destroyed you and your team with a flak scout (he is my roomate and is literally in the room next to mine).

Someone else with a roommate who plays Hawken_ That gets you a like!

Yeah I forced him to play and now he is hooked. I had to teach him quite a bit, but he fell in love with the game just like I did.

Sounds like my roommate as well. He played a little bit in the closed beta with me but didn't get too into it then one day saw me play a few matches and had to jump in.

One of my favorite things is when we go up against each other and I just steam roll him. I don't typically enjoy messing with people in-game and upsetting them but hearing his howls of frustration brings me nothing but sweet joy. Not to mention the groan I hear when he sees on his screen "KejiGoto has entered the game" and I'm on the other team.

[Leonhardt]

KejiGoto, on June 11 2013 - 06:04 PM, said:

Leonhardt, on June 11 2013 - 05:59 PM, said:

KejiGoto, on June 11 2013 - 05:53 PM, said:

Leonhardt, on May 12 2013 - 07:38 PM, said:

I was watching the game you were in where Weezl3 destroyed you and your team with a flak scout (he is my roomate and is literally in the room next to mine).

Someone else with a roommate who plays Hawken_ That gets you a like!

Yeah I forced him to play and now he is hooked. I had to teach him quite a bit, but he fell in love with the game just like I did.

Sounds like my roommate as well. He played a little bit in the closed beta with me but didn't get too into it then one day saw me play a few matches and had to jump in.

One of my favorite things is when we go up against each other and I just steam roll him. I don't typically enjoy messing with people in-game and upsetting them but hearing his howls of frustration brings me nothing but sweet joy. Not to mention the groan I hear when he sees on his screen "KejiGoto has entered the game" and I'm on the other team.

HAHAHAHAHA! Sounds just like me and Weez. I join the game and I hear a yell from the other room "THE RAID BOSS HAS ENTERED THE SERVER!" or something like that. If he is silent I know hes really pissed. lmao

[Bettik]

If the devs are smart, they are collecting stats.  And if the end of every round in any 1600+ skill game is an indicator, then Class A mechs are the MVPs by a very large margin.  Simple math tells us that they are running away with game.  That said, I agree with the sentiment that you should buff before you nerf.  Balancing both weapons and speed isn't the most common task in an FPS, but I have faith in these devs.

Edited by Bettik, August 02 2013 - 08:09 PM.

[Teknoman_Rapier]

Wait folks, last I checked the C Class Mechs were supposed to be the the heavy tanks of the bunch.  It you are going to drive a slow tank, plan on being a target.  The A Class Mechs are supposed to be light and fast, and they are.  The B Class Mechs are supposed to be the blending of the two.  The Armor Points even dictate that by the amount of armor you have available.

That said, the C Class Mechs were never intended to be front line Mechs, those were designed and intended for rear guard fire support, hence why they are equipped with the weapons they have.  The A Class Mechs are flanking Mechs.  These were designed to go in from the flanks or on the case of the Infiltrator sneak in from behind, deliver some damage and get out quick.  The B-Class Mechs were designed to be the Grunts and hold the line.

The real problem is people are not using the Mechs in the actual capacity they were intended, and by not using them in their intended capacity, (self included in this discussion), you rapidly find out what their shortcomings are.  

Case and point, you don't place a Sharpshooter on the front line and expect it to survive for very long.  The weapons are not developed for that purpose.  Its a long range sniper.  Same is to be said for the Reaper.  Conversely, Your would not expect to use a Bruiser or an Assault where you would need your Rocketeer or Grenedier.  

The bottom line, regardless of the Mech, there are folks whom are going to use them where-ever they want.  The point is, don't complain about the fact you are not using the right tool for the right job, or in this case your particular style of game play, then not achieving the results you thought you were.

Edited by Teknoman_Rapier, August 09 2013 - 12:54 AM.

[Rahh_Vende]

Teknoman_Rapier, on August 09 2013 - 12:53 AM, said:

Wait folks, last I checked the C Class Mechs were supposed to be the the heavy tanks of the bunch.  It you are going to drive a slow tank, plan on being a target*snip*
That said, the C Class Mechs were never intended to be front line Mechs, those were designed and intended for rear guard fire support, hence why they are equipped with the weapons they have.

Is it just me, or is this a bit self-contradictory_ You're supposed to be the target while hanging back behind the team_
And what's a mech with Flak is not front line mech_ There's a reason sharpshooters don't use shotguns...

Quote

Case and point, you don't place a Sharpshooter on the front line and expect it to survive for very long.  The weapons are not developed for that purpose.  Its a long range sniper.  Same is to be said for the Reaper.

Except any decent SS/Reaper has no problems fighting up close.

Quote

Conversely, Your would not expect to use a Bruiser or an Assault where you would need your Rocketeer or Grenedier.  

What exactly would you say that Rocketeer does so much better than Bruiser_

Quote

The bottom line, regardless of the Mech, there are folks whom are going to use them where-ever they want.  The point is, don't complain about the fact you are not using the right tool for the right job, or in this case your particular style of game play, then not achieving the results you thought you were.

So basically what you're saying is, if you're playing on pub servers especially DM/TDM, take an A-class because it's meant to get the kills and live to tell about it_

All that being said, I love my Grenadier, and do well with it, even if it's a bit handicapped. Mainly because of the oh-so-rarely-useful-ability and the fact that not taking damage trumps armor every time. There just are more stricts DO's and DO NOT's in playing a C.

But A vs. C, the A has the luxury of making one mistake. Two mistakes and you're a smoking piece of scrap. Mistake mainly being getting hit with Primary+Secondary..

[diablodevil2]

I'd like to see how a 10% reduction in general to A class damage, and a 10% increase to the C class's damage could work. I couldn't really predict how it would change the game, but I feel like it would make a noticeable, interesting change to the current meta.