27 replies to this topic

[Rei]

Can someone give me one reason to use this weapon over Hawkins or Slug on any mech_

On Sharpshooter it's literally a worthless buy since SA-Hawkins has more damage per shot, better refire rate, takes longer to overheat, and has better falloff damage ranges. Only thing uncounted for is spread, but hawkins is very accurate.

I can only see it being a decision on the reaper since it's overall better than the hawkins RPR and does more DPS than the slug (but less burst, which is your preference at that point).

I don't see the need for hawken to have these redundant weapons. It makes weapon choices less dynamic and less interesting overall. Allows for more min-maxing and less of what playstyle you want to choose. For example peekaboo flak weapons with more DPS than sustain fire weapons (except for vulcan, but wind up time so RIPPPPP). I think something needs to be done in order to balance the weapons out on mechs. Some things like SMC/AR difference being range is a nice difference for having two automatic weapons on a mech. SMC being much better at short range making it a short ranged dps weapon, where AR being overall more effective at longer ranges than SMC. This is better weapon designing than redundant weapons such as the SA Hawkins, AM-SAR, and the Hawkins-RPR which fulfill the same role which two of any of those could be found on Reaper/SS. I'm cool with the differences between SA hawkins and AR since they don't go on the same mech anywhere and doesn't really become an issue. Clearly if you want a mech to be inherently better at sustain fire, you give them the stronger of that type, but not any other if you want to give the mech more options in how it can play.

Honestly I'm just ranting at this point, but it's something that's always bugged me about hawken. Why does the game have 4 mechs with AR/SMC/Vulcan_ What purpose does it serve_ Where's the diversity between the mechs_ Why do we give snipers two of the same weapon where one is strictly worse than the other_ I'm hype for the new mech and all, but some of the previous weapon choices for mechs have been pretty bad.

Some examples of good choices:
Infil: AR(sustain)/Heat (AOE/Burst), EOC (Larger burst, but mine layer). These choices are very different and can all be used for their own playstyle. Good design choice imo with a good secondary weapon.
Rocketeer: Seeker/Heat/EOC. Yet again different roles for each weapon. You'll see more rocketeers using different setups.
Grenadier: Rev-GL/Heat/Vulcan. Self explanatory if you read the previous ones. flexible choices for different playstyles.

What is everyone's opinion on this_ With redundant weapon choices.

[Culex]

I was going to make a thread about how the Hawkens overshadows the AM-SAR in pretty much every way (and a lot easier to use), and how the AM-SAR and the RPR are less preferred/less viable alternatives, but I've been somewhat busy/lazy. The buff to Hawkens was probably justified, but they have to take into account the whole picture. Akrium made a good thread about this as well.

Agree 100%.

[Rei]

Thanks Culex. Thought this would be a good subject to focus on in the new subforums.

[FenixStryk]

I would greatly appreciate changes to address weapon redundancy and obsolescence. The AR, Hawkins and RPR share nearly identical roles (reasonably accurate sustained weapons), and likewise between the Vulcan and current gen SMC; the SMC is merely a Vulcan that's a little colder, a little weaker and with a little less flavor.

As was mentioned before, there's really no excuse for the AM-SAR being obsoleted by the new Hawkins or the large pool of AR/SMC/Vulcan Mechs. Just as there is room to carve out a niche for the AM-SAR, there is room for A/S/V duplicity to be assessed and differentiated. The Vulcan being on half the roster is not as big of an issue when a sizeable portion of Vulcan Mechs have unique alternatives (read: aren't A/S/V).

[comic_sans]

As the only true semi-auto weapon in the game, I feel like it needs a slight buff of some sort to make up for the fact that it's best in sustained fire, but isn't a weapon truly for it.  I had a ball back in the old COD days with the m14 and the FAL since I have a nutso trigger finger, but Hawken doesn't really let me do that.

Edited by comic_sans, December 12 2013 - 09:00 PM.

[Xacius]

Rei, on December 12 2013 - 08:23 PM, said:

I don't see the need for hawken to have these redundant weapons. It makes weapon choices less dynamic and less interesting overall. Allows for more min-maxing and less of what playstyle you want to choose. For example peekaboo flak weapons with more DPS than sustain fire weapons (except for vulcan, but wind up time so RIPPPPP). I think something needs to be done in order to balance the weapons out on mechs.

QFE

[Highchu]

The dps of the AM-SAR is slightly higher than the Hawkin-RPR, but its too awkward having it be semi-auto. Maybe if they changed it to a 3 round burst or activated full auto mode I'd consider using it. For me at least it might as well be nonexistent, but it seems unlikely for them to change/remove it on the off chance someone actually likes using it. I've heard that the AM-SAR is actually good on the Sharpshooter, but I don't think I've ever seen someone actually using it. Slug is still the way to go though.

[HugeGuts]

It seems the Fire Fighter will be the first class to have completely unique primary weapons. It does this by having only one primary weapon, but multiple versions of it. There is also a pistol weapon with multiple versions in the game files that will most likely belong to only one class. Given these two weapons, I suspect every other class will eventually get the same treatment - One primary weapon with multiple versions that no other class shares. This will solve the issue with redundant primary weapons.

Edited by HugeGuts, December 12 2013 - 10:10 PM.

[Rei]

Highchu, on December 12 2013 - 09:57 PM, said:

The dps of the AM-SAR is slightly higher than the Hawkin-RPR, but its too awkward having it be semi-auto. Maybe if they changed it to a 3 round burst or activated full auto mode I'd consider using it. For me at least it might as well be nonexistent, but it seems unlikely for them to change/remove it on the off chance someone actually likes using it. I've heard that the AM-SAR is actually good on the Sharpshooter, but I don't think I've ever seen someone actually using it. Slug is still the way to go though.

AM-SAR is worse than the Hawkins in every aspect sadly. fractionally slower, less damage per shot, overheats faster, and worse falloff ranges. No point in even unlocking the prestige since it starts off with the hawkins if you want to use that.

Burst fire is a cool idea and all, but what's the point if you already have slug_ You're going to be accomplishing the same thing. Only thing I can think of is have a mode change on it for burst fire or auto. Sadly they don't have that implemented for primaries from what I've seen. Only thing I've seen for primaries is charging shots, which unless they want people to constantly be clicking for each shot or hold for a burst, I don't see a good way to do this.

[PhysicsCrime]

It would be nice if the AM-SAR was more powerful.  Something like a mid way point between slug rifle and SA-Hawkens

[Rei]

PhysicsCrime, on December 12 2013 - 11:14 PM, said:

It would be nice if the AM-SAR was more powerful.  Something like a mid way point between slug rifle and SA-Hawkens

Only way I can think of that is if it could do either less burst than slug rifle but more than hawkins, but still have the ability to do sustained damage less than the hawkins but more DPS than slug. AKA having a dual mode auto/burst fire primary that can fulfill both roles, but at a lesser number.

[eth0]

Rei, on December 12 2013 - 08:23 PM, said:

I don't see the need for hawken to have these redundant weapons. It makes weapon choices less dynamic and less interesting overall. Allows for more min-maxing and less of what playstyle you want to choose. For example peekaboo flak weapons with more DPS than sustain fire weapons (except for vulcan, but wind up time so RIPPPPP). I think something needs to be done in order to balance the weapons out on mechs. Some things like SMC/AR difference being range is a nice difference for having two automatic weapons on a mech. SMC being much better at short range making it a short ranged dps weapon, where AR being overall more effective at longer ranges than SMC. This is better weapon designing than redundant weapons such as the SA Hawkins, AM-SAR, and the Hawkins-RPR which fulfill the same role which two of any of those could be found on Reaper/SS. I'm cool with the differences between SA hawkins and AR since they don't go on the same mech anywhere and doesn't really become an issue. Clearly if you want a mech to be inherently better at sustain fire, you give them the stronger of that type, but not any other if you want to give the mech more options in how it can play.

Honestly I'm just ranting at this point, but it's something that's always bugged me about hawken. Why does the game have 4 mechs with AR/SMC/Vulcan_ What purpose does it serve_ Where's the diversity between the mechs_ Why do we give snipers two of the same weapon where one is strictly worse than the other_ I'm hype for the new mech and all, but some of the previous weapon choices for mechs have been pretty bad.

Some examples of good choices:
Infil: AR(sustain)/Heat (AOE/Burst), EOC (Larger burst, but mine layer). These choices are very different and can all be used for their own playstyle. Good design choice imo with a good secondary weapon.
Rocketeer: Seeker/Heat/EOC. Yet again different roles for each weapon. You'll see more rocketeers using different setups.
Grenadier: Rev-GL/Heat/Vulcan. Self explanatory if you read the previous ones. flexible choices for different playstyles.

This right here. Yup.

Those mechs are good examples of how I'd like to see weapon choices on all mechs. Every time I launch with one, I have to think about the situation I'm in, what will complement the team better, etc.
On other mechs I feel like the hand is forced. You either use the best weapon for the mech or launch with a squirt gun as your secondary.

[Grizzled]

AM-SAR has one tiny little thing over Hawken rifle, its very quiet. Not that the HR is loud, but it is significantly louder than AM-SAR.

[Preternatural]

Grizzled, on December 13 2013 - 08:48 AM, said:

AM-SAR has one tiny little thing over Hawken rifle, its very quiet. Not that the HR is loud, but it is significantly louder than AM-SAR.

[Krellus]

I agree with the OP. Meaningful weapon choices like the 3 examples OP provided please devs. Cheers.

[Unknown_Kadath]

Here's an idea; add a weapon that imitates the 242 Bushmaster. Having a 20mm machine gun would definitely balance for class A, since it would fire slower than the AR, but deliver more damage. It would work for the Reaper, since it's supposed to be an "assassin" mech, punches holes through light armor. It would have to build up heat and increase in spread quickly, almost between the AR and the Vulcan, but would have a longer reach. Spread and longer range is kind of odd, I would agree, but it can be surprisingly useful.

[ropefish]

i cant seem to find the SA-hawkins :/

[Daronicus]

Rei, on December 12 2013 - 11:23 PM, said:

PhysicsCrime, on December 12 2013 - 11:14 PM, said:

It would be nice if the AM-SAR was more powerful.  Something like a mid way point between slug rifle and SA-Hawkens

Only way I can think of that is if it could do either less burst than slug rifle but more than hawkins, but still have the ability to do sustained damage less than the hawkins but more DPS than slug. AKA having a dual mode auto/burst fire primary that can fulfill both roles, but at a lesser number.

I think one way would be to give it more damage than the Hawkins, but have it spread a lot wider and faster.  So its DPS might be considerably higher on paper, but you would have to take a break if you wanted to actually hit your target.  It's a delicate act, though, since it might just encourage facehugging behavior if the damage is too good.

Or actually:  if you wanted something really different, what about giving the AM-SAR a 5-round or so magazine that then takes a second or so to reload.

I dunno; I think there are plenty of ways of finding an interesting point between burst and sustain, where you have to track your targets for a little while and put out continuous high damage, but at some point mechanics force you to stop.  I think a weapon like that would work well and provide a lot of flavor, and I think the AM-SAR is a good candidate.

[LoC_TR]

On the SS i'm not a fan of the Am-sar, it lacks a lot of stopping power compared to the Hawkins so i don't see a point to use it. On the reaper though, the am-sar is my favorite weapon. I don't think you need to to change the mechanics but it does need a bit of a buff on the SS to be a viable weapon choice.

[UncleBlitz]

LoC_TR, on January 21 2014 - 09:42 AM, said:

On the SS i'm not a fan of the Am-sar, it lacks a lot of stopping power compared to the Hawkins so i don't see a point to use it. On the reaper though, the am-sar is my favorite weapon...

completly agree with this ...even if i cant explain why...