14 replies to this topic

[Exeon]

I'd love to hear peoples opinion on this weapon. Especially top tier players who have used the weapon extensively. Its unfortunate that such a powerhouse is rarely seen, I think this is in large part due to how hard it is to hit people accurately and often.

My personal gripe with it is its currently excessive burst, it allows for very cheesy play in combination with other burst items like HE charge/detonator. Another reason its burst capabilities are a problem are its lack of ability to lose DPS. In most fights dodging usually makes players miss a couple primary shots here and there or a lot if you're good but thats where the EOC shines, simply charge your eoc for nearly 2 seconds while you wait for your opponent to dodge and lose 84-168 health depending on how long they've been charging.

edit: I'd love to see it nerfed in damage by 10%, 18 damage to 16 damage per mine with a buffed reload and charge speed of equivalent amounts or maybe even more to up its DPS for its burst loss.

Edited by Exeon, December 14 2013 - 01:01 AM.

[Sylhiri]

150. 60 exp. 90 Dir.

[Highchu]

Given how difficult it is to use effectively I think its burst damage is fair. The EOC has a high learning curve which I feel already turns off most players from learning to use it. I've spent the last week exclusively practicing the EOC on my Infiltrator and I only now feel "adequate" using it. As it is right now I really don't see that many players using it and it hasn't been abused like the Flak/Hellfires to really need a nerf. I think its a fun weapon and it really puts a new twist on gameplay that other primaries can't offer. Until I further master the EOC I need to actually work for my kills, but they are so much more satisfying to make.

Edited by Highchu, December 13 2013 - 12:56 AM.

[Super_Pickle]

Exeon, on December 12 2013 - 10:02 PM, said:

I'd love to hear peoples opinion on this weapon. Especially top tier players who have used the weapon extensively. Its unfortunate that such a powerhouse is rarely seen, I think this is in large part due to how hard it is to hit people accurately and often.

My personal gripe with it is its currently excessive burst, it allows for very cheesy play in combination with other burst items like HE charge/detonator. I'd love to see it toned down to around the 110-130 range while maintaining its current 56-60.54 DPS. Another reason its burst capabilities are a problem are its lack of ability to lose DPS. In most fights dodging usually makes players miss a couple primary shots here and there or a lot if you're good but thats where the EOC shines, simply charge your eoc for nearly 2 seconds while you wait for your opponent to dodge and lose 84-168 health depending on how long they've been charging.

HAHAHAHAHAHA.
You want to nerf the EOC burst damage. The burst is pretty much the main reason for using it. If the burst dropped that much, I'd pick up the T-bolt on my raider instead. There's no nice way to cut the burst without killing the EOC. Difficult to aim close quarters, average DPS and the mines are extremely situational. Without the burst and ability to maintain dps while charging the EOC starts looking pretty bad when compared to the alternatives.

The main problem with the EOC was the reasonably good dps combined with burst. Now that they've cut damage on everything about the EOC, I've seen more heat cannon infiltrators and less EOC infiltrators. I remember when the EOC was the only weapon infiltrators ran. I've also seen fewer raiders and I've noticed more T-bolt raiders. Still, the raider and infiltrator have been on the decline as far as I've been able to see. The EOC nerfs have been working, and I don't think the EOC can take much more from the nerf bat before it starts becoming unused in favor of better alternatives.

You might also like this post. Note: my credentials are the fact that I've been playing the EOC raider since the raider hit, through all the EOC nerfs they've pushed. Heat is just where I have to worry about it, aiming is hard, dps is average, and burst isn't stupid broken anymore. The EOC is in a good place right now. It's not over powered, but it's not bad.

Highchu, on December 13 2013 - 12:55 AM, said:

Given how difficult it is to use effectively I think its burst damage is fair. The EOC has a high learning curve which I feel already turns off most players from learning to use it. I've spent the last week exclusively practicing the EOC on my Infiltrator and I only now feel "adequate" using it. As it is right now I really don't see that many players using it and it hasn't been abused like the Flak/Hellfires to really need a nerf. I think its a fun weapon and it really puts a new twist on gameplay that other primaries can't offer. Until I further master the EOC I need to actually work for my kills, but they are so much more satisfying to make.

You. Infiltrator. I hate you so much. If you play your corners properly, you can hit stuff without line of sight. Use that to your advantage. You should be bouncing your nades off the walls and laying EOC mines at corners so enemies aren't going to want to walk around them to shoot at you. Stick to cover and dodge behind corners when an enemy has line of sight. You can detonate your nades at the right time and keep any damage from hitting you. Move back and let the enemy come towards you so you have the advantage. It's so frustrating to fight an infiltrator who knows what he's doing. They're really really rare, but man are they the best peekaboo mechs out there.

Make sure you are always aware of where the pucks are going to land. don't be firing off in the distance. Make sure they're going to land on something slightly useful if you miss, like the ground. Also, don't be afraid to engage at stupidly long ranges. The EOC is alright at really long ranges. Don't expect to win, but you can scare a SS off a perch if you aim correctly.

[Grizzled]

Super_Pickle, on December 13 2013 - 01:30 AM, said:

Exeon, on December 12 2013 - 10:02 PM, said:

I'd love to hear peoples opinion on this weapon. Especially top tier players who have used the weapon extensively. Its unfortunate that such a powerhouse is rarely seen, I think this is in large part due to how hard it is to hit people accurately and often.

My personal gripe with it is its currently excessive burst, it allows for very cheesy play in combination with other burst items like HE charge/detonator. I'd love to see it toned down to around the 110-130 range while maintaining its current 56-60.54 DPS. Another reason its burst capabilities are a problem are its lack of ability to lose DPS. In most fights dodging usually makes players miss a couple primary shots here and there or a lot if you're good but thats where the EOC shines, simply charge your eoc for nearly 2 seconds while you wait for your opponent to dodge and lose 84-168 health depending on how long they've been charging.

HAHAHAHAHAHA.
You want to nerf the EOC burst damage. The burst is pretty much the main reason for using it. If the burst dropped that much, I'd pick up the T-bolt on my raider instead. There's no nice way to cut the burst without killing the EOC. Difficult to aim close quarters, average DPS and the mines are extremely situational. Without the burst and ability to maintain dps while charging the EOC starts looking pretty bad when compared to the alternatives.

The main problem with the EOC was the reasonably good dps combined with burst. Now that they've cut damage on everything about the EOC, I've seen more heat cannon infiltrators and less EOC infiltrators. I remember when the EOC was the only weapon infiltrators ran. I've also seen fewer raiders and I've noticed more T-bolt raiders. Still, the raider and infiltrator have been on the decline as far as I've been able to see. The EOC nerfs have been working, and I don't think the EOC can take much more from the nerf bat before it starts becoming unused in favor of better alternatives.

You might also like this post. Note: my credentials are the fact that I've been playing the EOC raider since the raider hit, through all the EOC nerfs they've pushed. Heat is just where I have to worry about it, aiming is hard, dps is average, and burst isn't stupid broken anymore. The EOC is in a good place right now. It's not over powered, but it's not bad.

Highchu, on December 13 2013 - 12:55 AM, said:

Given how difficult it is to use effectively I think its burst damage is fair. The EOC has a high learning curve which I feel already turns off most players from learning to use it. I've spent the last week exclusively practicing the EOC on my Infiltrator and I only now feel "adequate" using it. As it is right now I really don't see that many players using it and it hasn't been abused like the Flak/Hellfires to really need a nerf. I think its a fun weapon and it really puts a new twist on gameplay that other primaries can't offer. Until I further master the EOC I need to actually work for my kills, but they are so much more satisfying to make.

You. Infiltrator. I hate you so much. If you play your corners properly, you can hit stuff without line of sight. Use that to your advantage. You should be bouncing your nades off the walls and laying EOC mines at corners so enemies aren't going to want to walk around them to shoot at you. Stick to cover and dodge behind corners when an enemy has line of sight. You can detonate your nades at the right time and keep any damage from hitting you. Move back and let the enemy come towards you so you have the advantage. It's so frustrating to fight an infiltrator who knows what he's doing. They're really really rare, but man are they the best peekaboo mechs out there.

Make sure you are always aware of where the pucks are going to land. don't be firing off in the distance. Make sure they're going to land on something slightly useful if you miss, like the ground. Also, don't be afraid to engage at stupidly long ranges. The EOC is alright at really long ranges. Don't expect to win, but you can scare a SS off a perch if you aim correctly.

Player did not stop using eoc because it was nerfed, they started using heat because it was buffed, and then when failsafe was buffed there was a huge heat revival.

EOC is so incredibly variable, useful only broken rules trump it.

EOC allows for small burst sustained or large burst peek a boo.
EOC has one of the larger burst damages in the game.
EOC has a fast travel time for its pucks.
EOC can be used as mines for area denial.
EOC has no range damage mitigation.
EOC does small area effect damage.

[Sylhiri]

Super_Pickle, on December 13 2013 - 01:30 AM, said:

Difficult to aim close quarters, average DPS and the mines are extremely situational. Without the burst and ability to maintain dps while charging the EOC starts looking pretty bad when compared to the alternatives.

It's not difficult to aim at all, you shouldn't be looking at DPS as the weapon is designed to have low DPS as all bursts should. The mines are insanely useful for guiding the flow of a battle. EOC should have never been on the Raider in the first place as it has a huge damaging secondary which only amplifies it's alpha potential.

150 is as low as it should go without seriously looking at Flak DPS, that thing fires way faster then it should for a burst weapon. Lowering EOC past 150 would just make Flak scout much, much more appealing.

[Super_Pickle]

Grizzled, on December 13 2013 - 08:58 AM, said:

Player did not stop using eoc because it was nerfed, they started using heat because it was buffed, and then when failsafe was buffed there was a huge heat revival.

So players are willingly picking another weapon because the EOC is over powered_ Also, raiders have been going with T-bolt more often the last few patches, and they don't have the heat cannon as an alternative.

Sylhiri, on December 13 2013 - 09:28 AM, said:

It's not difficult to aim at all, you shouldn't be looking at DPS as the weapon is designed to have low DPS as all bursts should. The mines are insanely useful for guiding the flow of a battle. EOC should have never been on the Raider in the first place as it has a huge damaging secondary which only amplifies it's alpha potential.

150 is as low as it should go without seriously looking at Flak DPS, that thing fires way faster then it should for a burst weapon. Lowering EOC past 150 would just make Flak scout much, much more appealing.

By difficult to hit, I mean it's not hit scan, and the shots travel slow enough that you have to predict a fair amount ahead of a moving target at range, and it's possible to dodge out of the way of the full EOC blast. Yes, it's really easy to aim on a stationary target, but stuff doesn't stay still in hawken. I miss far less shots with the heat cannon than I do with the EOC. It's not as hard as the corair-KLA to aim, but it's not as easy as a hitscan weapon.

And yeah, flack is still broken. They really really need to seperate the scout's flack from the brawler's flack. Give the brawler a tighter spread, the scout less damage and slower rate of fire, problem fixed.

The EOC has taken a few nerfs recently. Let the dust settle before hitting it again. I haven't seen anyone complain about the EOC in the past month, minus this tread, but these complaints seem like they're mostly on principle that the weapon is far too versatile and unique. The funny thing is, if the charged heat had more burst damage, I'd be willing to use the heat on the raider instead. The mines are very situational, and mostly result in trying to stop people from coming around a corner. Other than that, the only thing the EOC has going for it is the high burst and good sustain, but the heat is hitscan with immediate splash, and that's far more useful when you're fighting another mech. Heck, I'd give up the mines in exchange for immediate splash damage. That would totally break the EOC.

Edited by Super_Pickle, December 13 2013 - 12:45 PM.

[Sylhiri]

Super_Pickle, on December 13 2013 - 12:44 PM, said:

By difficult to hit, I mean it's not hit scan, and the shots travel slow enough that you have to predict a fair amount ahead of a moving target at range, and it's possible to dodge out of the way of the full EOC blast.

It's not a weapon made for longer ranges. You said difficult to aim at close ranges, it's basically where it excels at.

Super_Pickle, on December 13 2013 - 12:44 PM, said:

Yes, it's really easy to aim on a stationary target, but stuff doesn't stay still in hawken. I miss far less shots with the heat cannon than I do with the EOC. It's not as hard as the corair-KLA to aim, but it's not as easy as a hitscan weapon.

Any gun is easy to aim on a stationary target, it's still not that hard to hit at least half your mines with on a moving target. Because it isn't hitscan doesn't mean it's difficult.

Super_Pickle, on December 13 2013 - 12:44 PM, said:

The EOC has taken a few nerfs recently. Let the dust settle before hitting it again. I haven't seen anyone complain about the EOC in the past month, minus this tread, but these complaints seem like they're mostly on principle that the weapon is far too versatile and unique. The funny thing is, if the charged heat had more burst damage, I'd be willing to use the heat on the raider instead.

The nerfs it had are very minor. While i'm glad that ADH is not hacking away at it and using precision cuts, it still does too much damage mainly in the explosive aspect. When they fixed it's mine detection they gave it WAY more damage to mines then they should have.

Super_Pickle, on December 13 2013 - 12:44 PM, said:

The mines are very situational, and mostly result in trying to stop people from coming around a corner. Other than that, the only thing the EOC has going for it is the high burst and good sustain, but the heat is hitscan with immediate splash, and that's far more useful when you're fighting another mech. Heck, I'd give up the mines in exchange for immediate splash damage. That would totally break the EOC.

Heat isn't hitscan and the splash has decent feathering, mines have area control and in a battle between mechs it's way more useful. I can deny a side of cover, a pathway, under AA's and inside tunnels, even make escape routes into deathtraps. I can slip mines under shields and pile some on an enemies repair charge to nullify health generation to them and take it for myself. Hardly very situational.

It can do without 18 more damage.

Edited by Sylhiri, December 13 2013 - 09:14 PM.

[Exeon]

Highchu, on December 13 2013 - 12:55 AM, said:

Given how difficult it is to use effectively I think its burst damage is fair. The EOC has a high learning curve which I feel already turns off most players from learning to use it. I've spent the last week exclusively practicing the EOC on my Infiltrator and I only now feel "adequate" using it. As it is right now I really don't see that many players using it and it hasn't been abused like the Flak/Hellfires to really need a nerf. I think its a fun weapon and it really puts a new twist on gameplay that other primaries can't offer. Until I further master the EOC I need to actually work for my kills, but they are so much more satisfying to make.

The fact that it isn't being abused is a large reason as to why it has not been nerfed, unfortunately there are just a couple handfuls of players capable of even using it properly but when done so it's a very dominating weapon.

Super_Pickle, on December 13 2013 - 01:30 AM, said:

Exeon, on December 12 2013 - 10:02 PM, said:

I'd love to hear peoples opinion on this weapon. Especially top tier players who have used the weapon extensively. Its unfortunate that such a powerhouse is rarely seen, I think this is in large part due to how hard it is to hit people accurately and often.

My personal gripe with it is its currently excessive burst, it allows for very cheesy play in combination with other burst items like HE charge/detonator. I'd love to see it toned down to around the 110-130 range while maintaining its current 56-60.54 DPS. Another reason its burst capabilities are a problem are its lack of ability to lose DPS. In most fights dodging usually makes players miss a couple primary shots here and there or a lot if you're good but thats where the EOC shines, simply charge your eoc for nearly 2 seconds while you wait for your opponent to dodge and lose 84-168 health depending on how long they've been charging.

HAHAHAHAHAHA.
You want to nerf the EOC burst damage. The burst is pretty much the main reason for using it. If the burst dropped that much, I'd pick up the T-bolt on my raider instead. There's no nice way to cut the burst without killing the EOC. Difficult to aim close quarters, average DPS and the mines are extremely situational. Without the burst and ability to maintain dps while charging the EOC starts looking pretty bad when compared to the alternatives.

The main problem with the EOC was the reasonably good dps combined with burst. Now that they've cut damage on everything about the EOC, I've seen more heat cannon infiltrators and less EOC infiltrators. I remember when the EOC was the only weapon infiltrators ran. I've also seen fewer raiders and I've noticed more T-bolt raiders. Still, the raider and infiltrator have been on the decline as far as I've been able to see. The EOC nerfs have been working, and I don't think the EOC can take much more from the nerf bat before it starts becoming unused in favor of better alternatives.

You might also like this post. Note: my credentials are the fact that I've been playing the EOC raider since the raider hit, through all the EOC nerfs they've pushed. Heat is just where I have to worry about it, aiming is hard, dps is average, and burst isn't stupid broken anymore. The EOC is in a good place right now. It's not over powered, but it's not bad.

You really aren't very aware of the subject on which you're speaking. Firstly the EOC is probably one of the best suited CQC weapons however you should be playing corners with this weapon. Some players are capable of playing offensively with the weapon however it is not suggested. Secondly the EOC has plenty of usefulness and I do not want to strip away all of its burst merely tone it down. And finally, the EOC has the least DPS of any primary in the game, heat cannon and breacher have less dps than it when charged but they are the only ones.

Super_Pickle, on December 13 2013 - 12:44 PM, said:

Grizzled, on December 13 2013 - 08:58 AM, said:

Player did not stop using eoc because it was nerfed, they started using heat because it was buffed, and then when failsafe was buffed there was a huge heat revival.

So players are willingly picking another weapon because the EOC is over powered_ Also, raiders have been going with T-bolt more often the last few patches, and they don't have the heat cannon as an alternative.

Sylhiri, on December 13 2013 - 09:28 AM, said:

It's not difficult to aim at all, you shouldn't be looking at DPS as the weapon is designed to have low DPS as all bursts should. The mines are insanely useful for guiding the flow of a battle. EOC should have never been on the Raider in the first place as it has a huge damaging secondary which only amplifies it's alpha potential.

150 is as low as it should go without seriously looking at Flak DPS, that thing fires way faster then it should for a burst weapon. Lowering EOC past 150 would just make Flak scout much, much more appealing.

By difficult to hit, I mean it's not hit scan, and the shots travel slow enough that you have to predict a fair amount ahead of a moving target at range, and it's possible to dodge out of the way of the full EOC blast. Yes, it's really easy to aim on a stationary target, but stuff doesn't stay still in hawken. I miss far less shots with the heat cannon than I do with the EOC. It's not as hard as the corair-KLA to aim, but it's not as easy as a hitscan weapon.

And yeah, flack is still broken. They really really need to seperate the scout's flack from the brawler's flack. Give the brawler a tighter spread, the scout less damage and slower rate of fire, problem fixed.

The EOC has taken a few nerfs recently. Let the dust settle before hitting it again. I haven't seen anyone complain about the EOC in the past month, minus this tread, but these complaints seem like they're mostly on principle that the weapon is far too versatile and unique. The funny thing is, if the charged heat had more burst damage, I'd be willing to use the heat on the raider instead. The mines are very situational, and mostly result in trying to stop people from coming around a corner. Other than that, the only thing the EOC has going for it is the high burst and good sustain, but the heat is hitscan with immediate splash, and that's far more useful when you're fighting another mech. Heck, I'd give up the mines in exchange for immediate splash damage. That would totally break the EOC.

I've seen more T-bolt raiders than anything, few of them know that reflak is better and none of them can actually utilize the EOC to effective use. People pick weapons besides the EOC because its just far too hard to use for most normal players.

Onto syl's comment, I was thinking about it and the same process the TOW got I think would be perfect for EOC. 10% reduced damage per puck 10% reduced charge time 10% faster fire rate. EOC is probably one of the easiest to hit weapons if you have the skills to keep up with players movement. Charge while waiting for a dodge and insta hit them the second they finish it(scouts you shoot in front of them they're going to boost). The major problem comes in the form of air dynamic mechs which is only amplified by air dodge, I'd love to see anyone able to thread EOC pucks on a flying zerker so if you can do that PM me i'd love to watch! You see no one complain about it because of the lack of players capable of using it to its fullest extent.

As far as some stuff you've said on heat cannon, please stop charging the weapon you make yourself look silly unless you're trying to hit someone in the air or you're going to hit more than 3 targets with the splash. It loses far to much DPS when charging, if you were to hit 2 people with a charged heat you would do less DPS than if you were to fire 2 uncharged rounds at 1 target. 188(split between 2 targets) vs 188(to one target), in the single target example you would finish reloading 0.16 seconds faster. Finally, its very unlikely you'll ever do full splash to 2 targets however it is very common to get nearly full damage from single target heat shots and even getting secondary splash hits at times while maintaining pretty good DPS

Edited by Exeon, December 13 2013 - 11:38 PM.

[Angels]

EOC is getting rather.. well ... outdated. With the much higher amount of air combat eoc got a lot worse, it can't really hit fuzzy bunny against an opponent that moves in the air... Heat has been buffed and with it being much easier on the heat now + the almost hit scan charged heat it is a lot better option.. specially with failsafe that enables you to spam non charge heats in CQC and just do tons of dmg until you overheat...
EOC had its shine before the new tuning system, in which 99% was ground combat and you could do fairly easy area denial with eoc, now u can easly jump or fly around without being so very vulnerable in the air and almost nullifying the eoc. (atm Heat outclasses EOC on infil and it's not rly an option on rocketeer with its air tunings)
On the raider it can be good as a trap along with rocket corsair-kla, but the t32+mirv C-kla combo is vastly superior with the 300-400 dmg from a full hit.
EOC needs to be buffed, perhaps some bigger splash and sensitivity on the mines to make up for the lost area denial, not to mention how ridicolously hard it is to land shots right on the mech, perhaps boosting the travel speed of the mines would help.
Boost the speed/splash and increase the heat generation on eoc .. or the charge time, that would make uncharged EOC an option in fighting and the full charge as area denial/trap.

[FuryMonster]

Sylhiri, on December 13 2013 - 09:28 AM, said:

150 is as low as it should go without seriously looking at Flak DPS, that thing fires way faster then it should for a burst weapon. Lowering EOC past 150 would just make Flak scout much, much more appealing.

Would have to agree with Syl here. The flak is already a superior weapon in comparison, Considering that its damage is not instant and you can miss 1/2/3 pucks with each shot if they were to nerf its damage below 150 I would feel the weapon be removed from game play period even if other things were buffed to maintain its DPS. Its too easy to miss most of your damage and be punished for a long charge and other primaries aren't punished as hard for missing.

that being said I think should have better dps than it currently has and less initial burst.

Edited by FuryMonster, December 14 2013 - 12:47 AM.

[Grizzled]

Super_Pickle, on December 13 2013 - 12:44 PM, said:

Grizzled, on December 13 2013 - 08:58 AM, said:

Player did not stop using eoc because it was nerfed, they started using heat because it was buffed, and then when failsafe was buffed there was a huge heat revival.

So players are willingly picking another weapon because the EOC is over powered_ Also, raiders have been going with T-bolt more often the last few patches, and they don't have the heat cannon as an alternative.

No, I clearly stated it was because the heat was buffed.

As far as the Raider's weapons, Correlation is not causation. I could as easily state that there are more new Raider users that have not unlocked EOC.

[Aptest]

Quote

Given how difficult it is to use effectively I think its burst damage is fair. The EOC has a high learning curve which I feel already turns off most players from learning to use it.

prob the no1 worst argument in game design you can make. Skill should never be rewarded with power.

[DFTR]

This is perhaps obvious to others but the EOC is actually fully charged before the animated pucks slot into place!  Maybe the animation does not adjust for weapon loader_  I find it is very easy to load up charged pucks by the time I get back in and out of cover.

[KejiGoto]

I actually really like the EOC but I feel that it is a little OP at the moment which is why I don't run my Infiltrator that much anymore outside of certain situations.

First off my biggest complaint is the lack of a worthwhile SFX for taking damage from it. While good players are always monitoring their health it's still very easy to suddenly get slammed by a full EOC charge without realizing it in the heat of battle. More than once I've taken a full charge without realizing it until it was too late because I'm already fighting two people and didn't notice the Infiltrator or Predator that cloaked into the battle. Let us know we're taking damage, especially from a full charge where you're losing over 100 health in one volley.

Mines are another issue with me as EOC tends to reward those who spam the heck out of it making for very easy play. All the time I see an Infiltrator sitting pretty far back from combat spamming mines into an enemy group and they aren't really aware of additional damage they're taking. Mines shouldn't do as much damage as they do, especially with the EOC-P now out which is designed for ambushing and setting traps. Mines also need to be limited in the amount which can be laid down which will help cut back on spammers and hopefully focus the weapon as a more direct damage.

I like the idea of mines but I feel like EOC-R has too much function compared to EOC-P which is more geared towards setting traps and getting your opponent to walk into it.

Beyond that though I rather like the EOC and I think it's a great weapon with a ton of potential. Right now part of the reason we don't see it much is because Heat Cannon is so simple to use thanks to Failsafe and it rewarding spammers.