18 replies to this topic

[comic_sans]

Uptown is a weird map.  Over my time playing Hawken, I've noticed that basically, most of the choke points are one way, and flanking is a better option than engaging on the disadvantaged side something like 80% of the time.  Here's the best way I can explain what I've found.  Numbers in the post refer to numbers in the big picture at the bottom, and this all assumes two teams at equal strength on either side of the point, though less players can hold the advantaged side effectively.

First off, the high up choke point (1).  This is where the jump pad in the biggest room almost lands you if you choose to boost at the top of the hop.  If you are attacking into the smaller room with the bridge from the "outside" on the ramps, you will almost certainly lose unless you can get your whole team through in a second or so.  There is far more room to maneuver "inside" and far more room to safely repair while still maintaining a line of sight on the doorway.  Teams inside pushing out will at the very least disperse their opponents, if they don't eliminate 1 or two who try to escape down the ramp to the side or jump off to the eventual death pit below; it is very easy to push most of a team off the small ramps and onto the ground below, breaking them up for easier, prioritized kills before cleaning up those that fell all the way down.

Second, the dead end/library (2).  In my experience, it's easier to get a team up the curved back path and past the good cover provided by the big sphere tanks.  Basically, it's easier to push UP here.  Trying to enter from the bridge will usually end with you getting ambushed from the wide sight lines and ample cover that smarter teammates will use while their tankier friends whittle you down immediately.  Coming up from the back, though, is a wide wall/building that covers LOS if taken advantage of quickly, and can be well used for corner-kiting.

These two create a weird flow;  though it is advantageous to both exit the library out onto the bridge to have immediate high ground, you put yourself at the risk of attacks coming from the large upper room.  Both flows essentially meet up on the bridge (3), forcing players to either leave for the blue alley in the back, head to the double-level room through one of the two parallel paths that go up or down, or loop back around up into the library again.

If you're in the Blue Alley (4), go up.  Going down to the base of it might be useful to help your teammates in a pinch, but you can expect enemies to literally get the drop on your both from the main room and the split-level inside room upstairs (5).  Your chances are best if you go up to the top outside corner and head up the little ramp that appears to the left behind a small cover wall to the inside room; this gets you to the high ground quickly and hopefully allows you to take out mechs silly enough to try the double-back path.

From the top of the map, you can either push out to the main room, or back along the curved highway (6) down to the large split level room where one team spawns at the start of a match.  Pushing down the highway will help not only in giving you surfaces for your splash weapons to hit, but for a niftier purpose.  Certain castles (citation needed) were constructed with spiral staircases ascending in a clockwise direction; this ingenious trick of architecture allowed only the defenders to freely swing their sword arms.  By the same token, secondary weapons (on the right of your mech) fired while descending the curved ramp will hit the wall to the left a whole lot less than the other team will with their secondaries on the same side as the wall.

This split-level area at the bottom of the curved ramp is easiest to escape through either of the two thin parallel paths (7) that connect the upper and lower levels to the bottom level of the largest room.  From here, your team can push out two different ways, but the enemy has to push in through a single choke point (8) at the base before having their forces split up by the two paths.

tl;dr follow these stupid arrows on this map when playing Uptown and your team is gonna just stomp n romp.

Here's a pic that should explain it all more clearly than I can.  Red arrows are flow of traffic, blue arrows are smart flanking routes that are risky but keep the flow going if done quickly, and green Xs are just places you should never be.



If anyone can clarify what I've said, tell me I'm outright wrong, or at least give memorable names to these dang rooms, please, feel free.  It's also interesting to note that that stage probably has such unique flow because it can't possibly support MA or Siege.  I'm not actually a big fan of the map, but it has good concepts that don't show up in more symmetrical levels.

Edited by comic_sans, December 13 2013 - 02:07 PM.

[comic_sans]

Forgot to mention, at the start of a round, you're gonna wanna make a beeline for that top-middle green x and take the high ground  toward the center of the map ASAP.  The straight ramp on the right side of the X is the better option for going up, and the doubleramps for going down.

Edited by comic_sans, December 13 2013 - 02:05 PM.

[Super_Pickle]

I agree that the flow of the map is crazy messed up, but it results in some really fun and strange gameplay. I rather like this map for TDM, although a really good team can pulverize another team due to the nature of the map. If your team gets split up, you're in a bad spot, because the enemy team is going to just keep moving around in one giant lump while you're scattered around without the ability to flee anywhere that's not dangerous.

I do disagree about the left side of the map though. I've had just as many teams push up the two paths (7) as I've seen push down. I'd argue that it's much more difficult to push down the paths because they flood into a huge room where the enemy team can have the high ground on the bridge. There's not much your team is going to be able to do if there's a rocketeer on top of the bridge shooting down at you and a few close quarters mechs at the bottom taking cover behind the short cover there.

I might even argue that the flow is much more simple. Push through to area five, and then push towards the enemy team. If your team has the disadvantage at the bridge (1), then send two mechs to flank around on either side. I have seen teams push through from the bridge side, but not often, and normally when the bridge side has more mechs. As a raider I'll sometimes make a suicidal push through the tunnel, killing as much as I can and distracting them from the opening, while hitting stuff with an EMP. A well timed blitz to take out a repairing enemy and let your team push through can really turn the tide. The problem is, if you find your team at the bridge, there's not much you can do, since if you fall back they're going to pour through the upper level and kill anything on the ground. The small room at the other end of the bridge (2) doesn't provide much defensive advantage either, and flanking the sides is extremely risky when the other team has the upper room (5).

I'd also argue that I normally push upwards from 6/7/8. It offers a really good flanking path, and I haven't noticed a huge difference in what direction you push, until you push down into the large open room with the bridge and get screwed by long range mechs. Pushing up gives you the disadvantage when going up the sloped incline (6) but a big advantage because the longer ranged mechs on your side have the advantage. However, you don't want to stay too long since it's easy to get hit with a flank in the left side room.

I kinda wish that there were more maps like this. It's really interesting from the gameplay side of things, even if it does have areas with huge advantages.

Edited by Super_Pickle, December 13 2013 - 03:17 PM.

[HugeGuts]

Uptown redesign for more open space combat and alternate routes.



Black - Close this area.
White - Open this area.
Yellow - Bridge.
Green - Ramp.
Circle - Jump pad.

Also, add white to the bottom area's left opening. The upper right area's left opening is actually a ramp. The upper left area's bottom right opening should actually get more white as well.

I think Uptown has the potential to be one of the best maps. Its four mini arenas have a variety of architecture that, on paper, require different approaches. It just has too many narrow one ways that funnel everything into stalemate choke point spam.

Edited by HugeGuts, December 14 2013 - 11:09 AM.

[comic_sans]

Neat ideas guts, and I'd certainly like to try them since I still don't like the map too much as is.  And Pickle, all of those scenarios are totally valid and I agree with you.  To be honest, once scrims and the like are back up, if we ever get a buncha really good players together for a 6v6 or 3v3 whatever, I'll probably go back and rework this.  All of my experience is from pub games and sometimes carrying a pub game, so grains of salt n all that.

Also, these assume two teams at equal strength on both sides of the choke point.

Edited by comic_sans, December 15 2013 - 05:02 AM.

[*sarchasm]

I didn't design Uptown but I've always wanted to go back and fix it, same with rebalancing Bazaar. But internally, we've felt it was better to make new maps rather than retread old ones, where it might take a significant time commitment to redo. I do agree with a lot of your complaints however. Maybe sometime in the future I'll have more time. Good read though.

[Sylhiri]

[HWK]sarchasm, on December 16 2013 - 03:25 PM, said:

I didn't design Uptown but I've always wanted to go back and fix it, same with rebalancing Bazaar. But internally, we've felt it was better to make new maps rather than retread old ones...

*slaps*

Dat mentality just.... BAH. People like new things but come on, I've never seen a game just shoved all it's imbalanced properties into a corner to let it get dusty.

That's kind of sad considering those maps have a nice feel to them. Also we are pretty much stuck with the imbalanced maps in map rotations so it's not fun.

Edited by Sylhiri, December 16 2013 - 03:40 PM.

[Silk_Sk]

[HWK]sarchasm, on December 16 2013 - 03:25 PM, said:

I didn't design Uptown but I've always wanted to go back and fix it, same with rebalancing Bazaar. But internally, we've felt it was better to make new maps rather than retread old ones, where it might take a significant time commitment to redo. I do agree with a lot of your complaints however. Maybe sometime in the future I'll have more time. Good read though.

I appreciate the thought, but making substantial updates to old maps is a lot like making new maps isn't it_ New maps are nice but improving old ones is just as important.

[LordTemujin]

Silk_Sk, on December 16 2013 - 04:35 PM, said:

[HWK]sarchasm, on December 16 2013 - 03:25 PM, said:

I didn't design Uptown but I've always wanted to go back and fix it, same with rebalancing Bazaar. But internally, we've felt it was better to make new maps rather than retread old ones, where it might take a significant time commitment to redo. I do agree with a lot of your complaints however. Maybe sometime in the future I'll have more time. Good read though.

I appreciate the thought, but making substantial updates to old maps is a lot like making new maps isn't it_ New maps are nice but improving old ones is just as important.

In addition, new content only pleases the short term crowd for a week or so whereas you fixing all the older more....tilted maps is going to please both the newer crowd and pull in alot of support from your long time playerbase, potentially bringing some of that playerbase back to your table.

[ThirdEyE]

When I was playing Tribes: Ascend early on, there was a certain map (Bella Omega_) that stood out as being particularly problematic.  The developers would remove it from the map rotation for a while, then return a redesigned version of it.  After a few iterations with major changes, I think the map was permanently removed from the standard rotation.

As much as I like the feel of Uptown, TDM occasionally deteriorates into both teams waiting for each other on opposite sides of various chokepoints, which sucks all the pace and fun out of the match.  I wouldn't mind the map being temporarily removed (along with Bazaar) and reworked, since there are now enough other maps in the rotation to prevent it from feeling stale.  Not to mention that for better or for worse, Wreckage (T)DM plays similar to Uptown and Bazaar plays similar to Last Eco.

It seems like Hawken has evolved so much that some of the earlier maps really feel obsolete.  As we get newer maps with more modern balance and content in mind, it becomes more and more apparent that a facelift isn't enough to bring the old maps up to par.

Edited by ThirdEyE, December 16 2013 - 10:04 PM.

[ShadowGTR]

Silk_Sk, on December 16 2013 - 04:35 PM, said:

[HWK]sarchasm, on December 16 2013 - 03:25 PM, said:

I didn't design Uptown but I've always wanted to go back and fix it, same with rebalancing Bazaar. But internally, we've felt it was better to make new maps rather than retread old ones, where it might take a significant time commitment to redo. I do agree with a lot of your complaints however. Maybe sometime in the future I'll have more time. Good read though.

I appreciate the thought, but making substantial updates to old maps is a lot like making new maps isn't it_ New maps are nice but improving old ones is just as important.

QFT!

Devs, please don't feel that going back and updating the old maps would be an improper use of your time. On the contrary, I feel it would be extremely beneficial to the game if the original maps were redone for balance. Rebalancing the original maps could breath new life into the game. You could call it the Excavation (or Renovation) patch.

[Aregon]

Am I the only guy who actually likes Uptown_ I don`t see why it is unbalanced, I can understand WHY, I just simply don`t get it! Uptown is actually my favorite map along with Prosk!

[LordTemujin]

Aregon, on December 17 2013 - 08:25 AM, said:

Am I the only guy who actually likes Uptown_ I don`t see why it is unbalanced, I can understand WHY, I just simply don`t get it! Uptown is actually my favorite map along with Prosk!

Spawning mechanics on the map are kinda sketchy, in addition uptown is designed around two or three choke points which sucks most of the momentum out of the map because both teams hit a sticking point where the only game progression happening is when some newer player suicides into a rain of fire and dies a horrible flaming death. Interesting_ Not really, Well balanced for progressive or interesting play_ Not Really, case in point why the map needs a rework

[ShadowWarg]

[HWK]sarchasm, on December 16 2013 - 03:25 PM, said:

I didn't design Uptown but I've always wanted to go back and fix it, same with rebalancing Bazaar. But internally, we've felt it was better to make new maps rather than retread old ones, where it might take a significant time commitment to redo. I do agree with a lot of your complaints however. Maybe sometime in the future I'll have more time. Good read though.

Haha. Appreciate the thought, but if a map is broken, a headache to play on and is not going to see any rebalancing soon because new maps are a priority, I would just say, remove the old maps that are broken entirely until time has been made to fix them. Keeping in the broken maps doesn't help things.

Also. I HATE THAT CHOKE POINT AT THE VERY TOP OF UPTOWN!!!

[pseulak]

LordTemujin, on December 17 2013 - 11:19 AM, said:

Spawning mechanics on the map are kinda sketchy, in addition uptown is designed around two or three choke points which sucks most of the momentum out of the map because both teams hit a sticking point where the only game progression happening is when some newer player suicides into a rain of fire and dies a horrible flaming death. Interesting_ Not really, Well balanced for progressive or interesting play_ Not Really, case in point why the map needs a rework

I am 'that guy' attempting to die in the rain of fire. Its better than standing around 2 corners waiting for someone to do something.Maybe the team will follow and push out, maybe I will get fragged. I'll take the action either way.

[Muffintrumpet]

ShadowGTR, on December 17 2013 - 08:21 AM, said:

Silk_Sk, on December 16 2013 - 04:35 PM, said:

[HWK]sarchasm, on December 16 2013 - 03:25 PM, said:

I didn't design Uptown but I've always wanted to go back and fix it, same with rebalancing Bazaar. But internally, we've felt it was better to make new maps rather than retread old ones, where it might take a significant time commitment to redo. I do agree with a lot of your complaints however. Maybe sometime in the future I'll have more time. Good read though.

I appreciate the thought, but making substantial updates to old maps is a lot like making new maps isn't it_ New maps are nice but improving old ones is just as important.

QFT!

Devs, please don't feel that going back and updating the old maps would be an improper use of your time. On the contrary, I feel it would be extremely beneficial to the game if the original maps were redone for balance. Rebalancing the original maps could breath new life into the game. You could call it the Excavation (or Renovation) patch.

^ this
I'd much prefer a small roster filled with maps that work rather than a larger roster of which one third of the maps are dead weight / aren't fun / encourage me to log off

[oo_olio_oo]

Aregon, on December 17 2013 - 08:25 AM, said:

Am I the only guy who actually likes Uptown_ I don`t see why it is unbalanced, I can understand WHY, I just simply don`t get it! Uptown is actually my favorite map along with Prosk!

If you played this Uptown map in competitive environment (clan play) you would instantly notice that playing defensive mode in top room or middle room (library) have significant edge vs trying to play offensive and destroy enemy on defense. Risk/ reward is totally focused on playing defense and in such a matter that it takes really much effort to breach those two rooms, usually finding out that kill difference is going to grow to camping side.

I think the issue is having really nasty choke points entering rooms and also having high ground advantage. These points make this map imo unplayable in comp play. I have seen games ending in single digit kills after 12 minutes of fighting when two teams play defense and are not ready to take risks. Usually public games are just random carnage so it doesn't annoy too much but that doesn't mean that issue is there.

Having this map revamped would be beautiful thing and I like those ideas that HugeGuts draw into a picture. These areas are exactly that are desperately needing work.

[Aptest]

I feel uptown is a fairly balanced map that rewards flanking and assassination attempts. Game balance has shifted a little bit against solo assassinations (higher TTK than it used to be so players good at dueling have an advantage atm over map controllers) but a 2 man gank squad moving silently and striking the choke points from behind can wreak so much havoc on this map, that turtling on a choke point can easily lead to a team's downfall.

I think that the correct play is to split your team 4-2 and have the 4 attempt to pin opposing team into 1 of the chokes while the 2 assault the choke nice and quite like from the derriere, pick of a player, runaway, repeat.

Edited by Aptest, December 21 2013 - 09:46 AM.

[comic_sans]

Lookin at the map, I'm just now realizing my main beef with the level basically lies in the enormous circumference of the dead space in the middle of points 5 6 7 and 8.  If that area were smaller or more traversible, flanking most positions would actually be possible instead of pointless due to average ttk for the team you left behind.

Actually, pretty much all the dead space areas are way too big.

Edited by comic_sans, December 24 2013 - 10:10 AM.