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Internals: A Framework for Refining Concepts and Balancing + List of New Internals (Add Your Own Ideas)


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#1 Luminescent

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Posted December 17 2013 - 09:04 PM

Defining Internals

There has been difficulty in defining the nature of benefits that internals should and shouldn’t be providing. Terminology such as “active”, “dynamic”, “passive” and “kill streak” have been thrown around to make this distinction, however, fail to adequately highlight the issues presented by the current selection of internals. “Stat Boosting/modifying” is another term used for undesirable concepts and this too lacks accuracy, as all internals are going to be a manipulation of stats in some manner or another. The point of this segment is to provide specific criteria to define “unwanted” concepts, giving a framework to assist with developing ideas for internals.

When refining concepts for internals the following things should be prioritized:

1. The internal should not reduce any skill required in the game (at the very least, preferably it should open up new possibilities for skillful play). In other words internals should not remove the need for basic evasive tactics or situational awareness.

2. Conditional requirements should not be compensatory (e.g. receive damage or dying) or reward based (e.g. making a kill) in nature. Rather, they should be used to temper advantages to assist with balance. For advantages that impact more commonly used mechanics, a negative counter effect can be used to help balance and increase the skill requirement.

3. The significance of the advantage must be comparable to other internals of the same slot value.

4. The internal does not directly affect weapon stats, items, or other (enemy or allied) mechs.


A note on adding skills by substitution: There is a series of internals which aren’t necessarily compensatory (or skill reducing) in nature, but open up new tactical opportunities by removing a current limiting mechanic (e.g. Shock Coils which remove fall damage and Failsafes (which is discussed further below)). These may add new opportunities but at the expense of a different mechanic that would require skillful management. If the internal’s advantage promotes new maneuvers or tactics which themselves require skill (equal to or more than the initial limiting factor) to utilize effectively, then they can be considered acceptable.

A note on weapon altering internals: Apparently, a new system is being worked on that will allow more customizability for weapon functionality, as such weapon specific internals should be avoided to prevent unnecessary overlap.

A note on item altering internals: Currently the only item altering internals are those for repair charges. I believe the initial intent was to provide an advantage for repair charges dropped upon enemy or allied death (which isn’t linked to an item and in a way does encourage situational awareness and tactical maneuvers to avoid damage whilst staying near the repair orb), however, for some reason it was decided that they would affect items as well. Internals should function separately from items and have no direct impact on them – otherwise we are essentially doubling up on items which won’t actually add variability to the game. I propose combining the repair kit and extractor, changing the slot value and removing its effect on item based repair orbs. As another side note, internals should not have a direct impact on enemy mechs (hence their name “internal”) – items fulfill this role – but focus directly on influencing the player’s own mech in some way.

A note on cosmetic internals: Players also want ways to customize visual and auditory components when on the battlefield (such as explosions on death and horns), however, if they are linked to internals players will have to sacrifice opportunities for varying their play style. As such if these concepts are implemented they should be relegated to the style section so that there is no limitation on gameplay options (just as holo-taunts are separate from items).

Toggle-able internals: These refer to internals which are controlled by a certain button that can be turned on and off at will. By granting very strong advantages, they are often balanced with an adverse counter effect that significantly impedes a widely used mechanic. A potential issue with this is that the disadvantage is so significant in a majority of situations it would outweigh the internal’s beneficial effects.  By making it optional it removes the need for a permanent, debilitating effect on gameplay, instead only affecting the player when they choose to use the advantage (Giving the player the benefit of choice and avoiding an overall decrease in effectiveness). An example would be removing your signature from radar but in turn disabling your radar.


A Case Study of Current Internals

Using the above knowledge, this section will perform a case study of some of the newly released internals from the ascension patch. By analyzing these with respect to the factors discussed above, it should help outline why certain concepts were unacceptable in the game and assist with future discussions.

Fuel Converter: The Fuel converter falls under the compensatory category and is the most significant internal of this type that has yet to be nerfed/removed. This internal doesn’t contribute anything when playing but instead encourages wasteful use of fuel and removes the need for any fuel management whilst in battle. A lot of proposed internal concepts use fuel as a balancing factor, making it a precious commodity. This, however, completely negates that and as such should probably be removed.

Composite Armor: Clearly a compensatory internal, giving players who die an armor advantage. Players need to learn to rely on what they have and not be compensated when something adverse happens to them. Internals should not be training wheels to help players around the battlefield, instead they should be adding ways to vary ones play style.

Detonation Device: This internal never saw the light of day, and for good reason – it was the antithesis of skill. Dealing an incredible amount of damage on death to enemies seems to be encouraging all the wrong things.

Failsafe: At present the Failsafe has been met with disapproval because of its effect on play style, with the debate on the impact on skill (it also falls under the compensatory category). By altering the amount of damage done to the user it interferes with the balance between weapons (decreasing hitscan weapon effectiveness relative to explosive weapons in many situations). Some argue that it allows for more tactical play in CQCs (where face-hugging still isn’t viable, as the enemy will inflict serious damage if you are in their face and the damage from your own weapons is still significant) and so in fact is actually adding a skill by substitution (the additional option of maneuvering closer around the enemy). The question is, does the additional “maneuverability” allowed in CQCs outweigh the skill of managing distance when using explosive weaponry_

Air Compressor: Considered the embodiment of all the good aspects that internals should be focused on, air dodge succeeds in opening a new realm of tactical play in the air. Its little brother Air 180, however, has been neglected. As the Air 180 is essentially a 0.5 slot internal the simplest solution would be combining it with the Air Compressor (which is more of a 2 slot internal anyway).

Replenisher: While this internal clearly relies on a reward system (kill or assist), it was less widely used and so complaints were drowned out by those for other internals which were incredibly overpowered at the time. This internal does nothing for adding variability to gameplay and could actually be stated as reducing the skill in having to be careful with your item and mech ability use (something which an internal shouldn’t influence to start with).  Moreover, this is rewarding advanced players for doing something that they already are very good at, allowing them to continuously abuse its benefits without any additional skill requirement.

Armor Fusor and Power Surger: Both of these internals are symptomatic of the same problem, they don’t encourage skillful play (in fact they allow a more reckless play style and less situational awareness) and by rewarding players for kills/assists they are easily exploitable by skilled players at no extra cost. Public outcry saw them nerfed to the point of uselessness (presumably a temporary measure) and for good reason.

Evasive Device: Could be classed as a compensatory internal, the main issue is its encouragement of a more reckless play style by removing the consequences associated with a lack of situational awareness. This internal, thankfully, was also nerfed to the point of uselessness due its overpoweredness at the time of release.

Deflectors: One of the more tricky internals as technically it encourages the use of evasive techniques and because of this has received minimal criticism. However, looking at it from another angle it is actually a reward based internal – player boosts/dodges and is rewarded with a damage reduction. People should be doing this anyway so there isn’t anything new or different by including it. The problem with this is internals are not meant to be training wheels for new players but rather add new facets to the gameplay which open new opportunities for skill based mastery. For advanced players who already utilize the methods that would activate the advantage, it is essentially giving away free stat increases for no additional skill requirement.

Reconstructor: People thought this internal would be incredibly overpowered, but after the patch was released the Armor Fusor quickly stole the limelight. In some ways this internal is similar to the Deflectors by operating on a reward base system – players are encouraged to exit the combat scene when at low health and they will be rewarded with a steady stream of hp in return.  Repairing is a fundamental aspect of Hawken and as such internals which negate this by allowing passive hp regeneration should be avoided.

In summary, internals that should be removed include: Replenisher, Evasive Device, Composite Armor, both Deflectors, both Reconstructors, both Power Surgers, both Fuel Converters and both Armor Fusors
Internals that should be kept or reworked include: Air Compressor, Air 180, Repair Kit, Extractor, Shock Coil and Failsafe


A Framework for Balancing Internals

There are two ways for balancing internals:

1. Altering the specificity of the conditions by which they operate (E.g. adding a cooldown). See above for more details when deciding on the conditions. These can be considered a neutral balancing option as there is no drawback – useful for advantages that have very few situational benefits but when they are useful still require tempering.

2. Adding a negative side effect to balance out any positive advantages (If the negative effect will have an impact when the advantage is not in use then it should be significantly less severe. However, if it takes effect during or after the advantage is used then it should be 1:1 as the option of using the advantage is an overall benefit). Examples could include a fuel requirement or being more easily detected on radar.



A Compilation of Internal Concepts

Internals listed here are taken from the forums and fulfill the following criteria (from above):

1. The advantage maintains the same level of skill required in the game (or preferably adds extra options)
2. The conditional requirements are not compensatory or reward based in nature.
3. The advantage isn’t too overpowered or underpowered relative to other internals of the same slot value.
4. The internal does not directly affect weapon stats, items, or other mechs.


Real values have been added to better convey how the internals would perform in-game when balanced (however should not be taken as the final values). More suggestions are welcome and will be added to the list if they fit the above criteria.

Movement Based Internals
Spoiler

Visual/Auditory/Radar Based Internals
Spoiler

Miscellaneous Internals (incl. Heat/Repairing/Fuel)
Spoiler

Edited by Luminescent, December 21 2013 - 02:38 AM.


#2 Xacius

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Posted December 17 2013 - 09:11 PM

:wub:

Edited by Xacius, December 18 2013 - 09:51 PM.

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#3 Sylhiri

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Posted December 17 2013 - 10:37 PM

Print it and hand it around the office :0

[13:14] <nonsiccus_work> uh oh

there's gravy in my keyboard

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[11:18] <+shosca> if you wanna play ar, go play zerker
[11:18] <Hyginos> and if you want to play zerker, go smc
[11:19] <someone> if you want to play sustain, please go and die in hell


#4 Wasabi_Wei

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Posted December 17 2013 - 10:55 PM

Nice work! I consider slots taken up as a balancing mechanism, but definitely to a lesser degree than the two you mention. I'll probably have more to add after digesting that Steak and Egg on Rye sandwich of a post!
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#5 fingerknitter

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Posted December 17 2013 - 10:58 PM

"Advantage: If overheated, performing a 180 will reduce the wait time by 0.60 seconds"

lol I know who else was watching Xacius do co-op bot destruction xD

I like your approach to "indirect" internals, and its something I have wanted as well. Internals should provide avenues to express skills differently than without to net rewards, not earn rewards outright by nature of the internal.

Something to consider: with an internal system like this, it is a lot easier to be creative and maintain balance if we split them into categories. We already have conflicting internals where you had to write "incompatible with x". This also provides a neat way to reduce competition between certain types of internals as well (it is something I would also like to see with items...but that's another discussion).

[HWK]ZamboniChaos, on December 10 2013 - 05:29 PM, said:

Sure thing! :D Thanks for being constructive.
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#6 Luminescent

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Posted December 17 2013 - 11:56 PM

Quote

Nice work! I consider slots taken up as a balancing mechanism, but definitely to a lesser degree than the two you mention.
Thanks! The implication of using slots as a balancing mechanism is that it would negate the skill component associated with managing the conditions/negative effects of an internal. Therefore, players that use the higher slot count internals with less negative effects will have an overall advantage without a skill requirement.

Take for example "successive dodging" without cooldowns: One could keep the slot count at a decent amount (allowing them to select from a greater combination of internals to vary their play style) and add a fuel penalty, or make it a 4-5 slot internal but at no additional penalty. You'll notice that the later negates a current limiting mechanic but does not result in an equal or greater skill requirement, in fact it lowers the skill level (they no longer have to worry about dodge cooldowns). I personally think there should be numerous internals around the 1 or 2 slot count enabling the greatest number of possibilities for players to customize their play style.

Quote

"Advantage: If overheated, performing a 180 will reduce the wait time by 0.60 seconds"

lol I know who else was watching Xacius do co-op bot destruction xD

Haha yes, that idea was too good to let it go to waste

Quote

Something to consider: with an internal system like this, it is a lot easier to be creative and maintain balance if we split them into categories. We already have conflicting internals where you had to write "incompatible with x". This also provides a neat way to reduce competition between certain types of internals as well

An interesting concept, my main concern with adding limitations to internals by categorising them (I presume what you mean by this is players are restricted to a certain amount of internals from each category) is its reduction on possibilities for players to express themselves.

You'll notice that the main reason for the incompatibilities is the negative effect of one internal is the advantage of another - Take D01 and H01 (which aren't even in the same category) for example, D01 allows dodging without fuel, but F01 consumes fuel for its negative effect.

While this is a crude way of preventing overpowered combos, it also results in the most possible combinations that a player can choose from under a balanced setting. You mention that separating them into categories would help with balancing, however, the implication with this is that specific internals need not be relatively neutral between categories (i.e. certain categories can be more "op" than others - which would only occur if they didn't have negative effects to keep them in line and require skilfull management).

If all internals are balanced with regards to each other, then even if another player specializes in dodge type internals for example and another in a broad variety they will still end up on the same playing field overall (the player who specializes in a specific category will have more opportunities to outmaneuver them in that situation whereas the other player will have more opportunities across  a larger range of settings)

Edited by Luminescent, December 18 2013 - 02:58 AM.


#7 DerMax

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Posted December 18 2013 - 12:57 AM

Lumi for president. If Hawken adopts this, we will have a much, much better game to play. The current internal system is a reason for Hawken's low skill ceiling, because of which many top players have stopped playing the game. Let's make sure that at least someone from ADH reads this.

P.S. I can already see some potentially overpowered combinations ;)

Edited by DerMax, December 18 2013 - 12:58 AM.


#8 RozerMahbub_

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Posted December 18 2013 - 01:43 AM

[font=play, helvetica, arial, sans-serif] [/font][font=play, helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Print it and hand it around the office :ph34r:  lol[/font]

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#9 Luminescent

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Posted December 18 2013 - 02:28 AM

Quote

P.S. I can already see some potentially overpowered combinations ;)

If you think certain combinations are cause for concern, please share!
I hope to keep this list as well rounded as possible in terms of balance to provide solid groundwork for the devs to work with.

Cheers

#10 aToastfan

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Posted December 18 2013 - 02:31 AM

Daaaamn.

What
a
post.

The best piece of writing I've ever seen on a computer game forum.

Not to mention fantastic feedback and superb suggestions.

Edited by aToastfan, December 18 2013 - 02:33 AM.

.

#11 DerMax

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Posted December 18 2013 - 03:34 AM

View PostLuminescent, on December 18 2013 - 02:28 AM, said:

Quote

P.S. I can already see some potentially overpowered combinations ;)

If you think certain combinations are cause for concern, please share!
I hope to keep this list as well rounded as possible in terms of balance to provide solid groundwork for the devs to work with.

Cheers

Well, imagine you're piloting, say, a sharpie, and you want to kill an infiltrator with good perception of timing and D04 + A02 + V01 + F01. Even if your aim is great, you'll have a really hard time landing shots even with a low ping. With a high ping you won't hit the guy once.

#12 Luminescent

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Posted December 18 2013 - 04:27 AM

Hmm with the combination you've listed, I can see that D04 + V01 could be problematic (as the the extra fuel cost for V01 is negated in D04 and with cloaking the shorter travel distance wont be as debilitating), the simplest solution would be making them incompatible. Although, with the shorter dodge distance any explosive weapon is likely to hit the mech with splash and when combined with the 15% damage penalty - it could start adding up. Another potential problem is being able to dodge out of range of your own explosive weapons when trying to line up a shot on enemy mechs, so self inflicted damage could be another factor.

Your choices actually add up to 7 slots btw, D04 (1) + A02 (1) + V01 (3) + F01 (2). From your selection three of those internals are specifically aimed at helping with evasive actions (although D04 could sorta be as well), so you'd certainly hope an infiltrator can evade more shots than usual (Also note V01 does not work for any air related maneuvers. Additionally D03 and D04 are specific to ground based dodging so its effects won't stack with A02, I'll make sure to add these clarifications!) because the damage penalty and reduction in shooting capabilities are quite disadvantageous for a variety of other situations.

As someone who plays constantly with high ping (~230), I can safely say that you wouldn't likely be hitting anything in an SS anyway.

Edited by Luminescent, December 18 2013 - 05:00 AM.


#13 DerMax

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Posted December 18 2013 - 05:00 AM

You are correct, I miscalculated the slots. One way or another, I'd love to check your system out and see what works and what doesn't. No matter how you slice it, your framework is a league above the existing one.

Edited by DerMax, December 18 2013 - 05:02 AM.


#14 Luminescent

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Posted December 18 2013 - 05:00 PM

Ok, I've made an online document which anyone can edit to help with developing new ideas and discussing the current ones (in a more organised fashion then what these forums allow). You dont have to log in or use microsoft word (it's all done in the browser)

You can access it here

#15 Luminescent

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Posted December 20 2013 - 05:39 PM

So I had another thread in the suggestions forum which was focused at keeping an up to date list of new internals but it didn't get much traction. As such I decided it would be easiest to just use this thread to gather new ideas as well, so if you have any new concepts in mind please post them.

Some new internals which were just added include: F02, A04, RE02, RE03, D05, A05 (Air Compressor 2.0) and O01 (Repair Kit 2.0)

#16 DerMax

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Posted December 20 2013 - 11:42 PM

Hm. I think 10% is tad too much for RE02. I would go with 8%.

RE03 might become a must-have for dueling (especially if the endup time is also decreased).

Also, I'm not sure whether O01 should take 2 or 3 slots. It gives quite a bonus.

#17 Luminescent

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Posted December 21 2013 - 02:36 AM

I changed RE02 to what you suggested.

In regards to RE03 I did some testing, but first to clear up the internals functionality - it doesn't affect time to exit repair mode (approx 1.5 sec) and the increased damage susceptibility is still in effect while exiting repair mode.
As an example a scout takes approx 10 sec to heal 47 hp so it receives hp at a constant rate of around 47 hp/sec (this varies across classes). The startup time for A classes is ~1.5 seconds so extra hp gained at the start of the repair is 63.5. Now let's say they were too slow in exiting repair mode and get hit with a GL (150 + 25% = 187.5 (+37.5) and heat shot (85 + 25% = 106.25 (+21.25) which provides an additional 59 damage on top of the other damage (essentially negating any benefit).
However, what I consider the most important aspect is that free startup time to change your mind is removed - i.e. during the startup rep time you can instantly cancel and dodge/boost to avoid damage if an enemy appears out of nowhere (which I find happens quite often). What this means is if you start a repair then decide it was a bad move you have to wait for the 1.5 sec before you can actually boost and dodge (so if an enemy appears around the corner just as you start repairing chances are they will get free damage plus the 25% bonus). As such it can be considered to increase the riskiness of repairs on two fronts.
Additionally, it removes the possibility of the false repair lure - where you pretend to start repairing and the enemy ducks around the corner only for you to be waiting for them.
With these things considered if it still seems overpowered damage susceptibility can be increased or time reduction decreased (to around 75%_).

For O01 I did some testing, currently repair orbs give 120 hp and take ~3 sec to fully absorb so with a 40% bonus they would give 168 (+48) in 1.8 seconds. Or if they were 30% then it would give 156 (+36) in 1.8 seconds. Other things which should be taken into account is additional damage the player could potentially receive by remaining close to the repair orb (most susceptible to splash weapons). I'd rather reduce effectiveness then increase the slot count if it still seems a bit over the top.

#18 DerMax

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Posted December 21 2013 - 05:24 AM

"The most important aspect" of RE03 renders it useless. Even without it you risk to get one-shot by a powershot or alpha strike. RE03 will be in a good position without the penalty, though.

As for O01, it is very difficult to calculate the exact well-balanced percentage without testing the internal.

#19 Aptest

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Posted December 21 2013 - 02:25 PM

I just want to add something, with respect to the air-dodge and air-180.

Hawken is a game of varying skills. One skill is the timely dodging of incoming fire and the steadyness or aim under conditions of large changes in position. A second skill is the artful manipulation of an opponent such that he enters a position where he cannot dodge.

Air dodge essentially removes a window of vulnerability from a mech, therefore nerfing "tactics" as a method for defeating said mech (because tactics is basically creating and exploiting windows of vulnerabilities). You can say it opens up new ways for the using mech to act, but it does so at the cost of reducing the good options the other mech has.

basically, it makes skill "A" (trick opponent into jumping, shoot secondary while he cannot dodge) less able to defeat said mech, while skill "B" (steady aim) retains it's capacity. OTOH using mech can use skill type "C" (i dodge all the time) better.

what im saying is, it's a tradeoff, which nerfs "thoughtful play" in favor of "reactive play". so it's not simply the one sided opens up options that you present it to be. It opens up gameplay for the using mech - but it certainly blocks options for the other guy.

nonetheless this internal is good on the merits that it actually creates a difference in gameplay between the mechs and not just adds stats.

#20 Luminescent

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Posted December 21 2013 - 03:54 PM

Dermax - RE02 - It would still be incredibly useful in a team setting where you can fall back behind allies to repair. Also the extra damage won't really end up worse for the mech - If you were going to be hit with an alpha strike anyway the additional damage would simply negate that "free bonus" gained at the start of repairs, not surpass them. The nature of this internal makes it difficult with keeping it in line - You don't want it to be just so players can easily gain quick repairs for no skill cost/risk (but that is inherently what the advantage allows). It is very difficult to balance repairing mechanisms as there isn't much you can use as a negative effect - movement, fuel, heat and radar are already out the picture. I'd be inclined to remove the internal if a good place for it can't be found.

O01 - I agree - In fact I'm not sure about a lot of values presented here - the only way to get a true feel of their balance and effect on gameplay would be testing them before they are implemented *cough* HAB *cough*.

Aptest - I see your point but you suggest that "A second skill is the artful manipulation of an opponent such that he enters a position where he cannot dodge". While I support the first premise that using psychological manipulation is a skill, it doesn't really include the second part of the statement. Ways to manipulate a player include luring them into an ambush, leading them around corridors, etc or pretending to dodge around a corner to get them to pre-fire their weapons.

There is no direct action you could do that would force the player to want to jump in the air (at least not in the skilled player base). In fact players often jump in the air for a completely different reason, largely independent of what you are doing - to allow a better angle for their shot to hit and avoid splash (e.g. with heat, players without these weapons will often stay grounded regardless) - with the trade-off being they are slow moving targets even though there is already a large fuel cost. It is important to note that the devs and a majority of the player base never liked that being in the air was largely bad thing, especially considering its excessive fuel cost - it was meant to add extra tactics on a 3 dimensional playing field, something which air maneuvers finally achieves.

You describe "reactive play" in a negative light (whereby substituting it for "thoughtful play" gives an overall nerf in skill), however, I would consider it an extremely important skill, even more important than the basic manipulation of other player psychology. If a player fails to dodge at the perfect time either in prediction or as a reaction (most dodges that happen as a reaction fail anyway as they are still too slow) then they get a fuel penalty which is going to hinder their possibilities later on. In the contrary, manipulation of enemy player psychology is very easy to do and generally at no penalty to oneself.

In summary being in the air was never meant to be such a negative thing, but just like dodging it should open up new evasive tactics for a heightened fuel cost. Air maneuvers fixes the imbalance between the opportunities of being in the air and its penalties.




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