38 replies to this topic

[Aptest]

Luminescent, on December 21 2013 - 03:54 PM, said:

You describe "reactive play" in a negative light (whereby substituting it for "thoughtful play" gives an overall nerf in skill)

I did not really have the correct word for it. but here is what I was trying to say:
there is a kind of style that is based on planning and premeditation. intentionally making the other player fight into a specific corner. Sneaking behind a player and keeping out of his LOS, et cetera.

and there is a kind of style that is based around manipulating the other player's effectiveness through wild movements - basically making it difficult to aim through keeping your movements erratic in a way that is based on the other player's actions.
in hawken this kind of style demands a fair amount of situational awareness because crashing into a wall leads to losing the ability to move.

I don't have positive sounding "buzz words" for the two styles. But I think they should both be relevant within the context of the game.

P.S.

All in all if you want to defeat the guy who has the better aim and the better dodging, you need a situation that he is unable to dodge to exist within the game. otherwise the better reflexes win every-time and there are no "different viable styles" - only the single most effective way.

Edited by Aptest, December 21 2013 - 04:35 PM.

[Luminescent]

Fair enough

Dodging isn't the ultimate method for avoiding damage and you don't need perfect aim to defeat someone. Most people are very predictable with their dodges so it is very easy to know where they'll be and hit them after their dodge finishes. Now in the higher level gameplay aiming and reflexes (to an extent) aren't best - patience is. When a  player isn't dodging they make damage soaks for primaries but as soon they dodge they will become stationary guaranteeing a free hit with your secondary. As such dodging has a significant trade off, while it will allow you to evade weapons fire, those skilled enough will simply wait for the dodge to finish then nail you. No need to have them incapable of dodging (e.g. being in the air) to still be able to land your shots.

Anyway, having good aiming and reflexes is also part of the skill of the game so of course someone who has been playing for a long time will have honed these skills and naturally outplay those who don't.

Internals are inherently focused on adding different ways people can play to evade damage and outmaneuver the enemy, so naturally someone with more options at their hands should be able to evade the enemy better than someone who has to play with the basic options - being on the ground and having either sideways dodges or forward boosts. Items are focused on incapacitating or damaging the enemy in various ways.

[Xacius]

Here's a question I have for everyone:

Should items in Hawken follow the same balancing guidelines as internals_

[FuryMonster]

Lumi I love 99% of what you've said and I think hawken should hire you.

Edited by FuryMonster, December 27 2013 - 06:59 PM.

[DerMax]

Xacius, on December 27 2013 - 12:33 AM, said:

Here's a question I have for everyone:

Should items in Hawken follow the same balancing guidelines as internals_

I don't understand your question. Could you please reword it or elaborate on it_

Now, after thinking a bit on Lumi's concept, I came to the conclusion that we should be very careful with internals that promote hovering (A series). Having a third dimension for maneuvering is a great idea on paper, but when it comes to reality, some problems pop up.

Latency is the main problem. Right now killing a hovering zerker is next to impossible with a high ping. I normally try to avoid fighting zerkers in the open. Unfortunately, high latency is the everyday reality for many, so we want to make sure our concept does not put off a part of Hawken's demographics.

So do we really want to promote air combat in Hawken_ Will it add to the depth of gameplay_

[Luminescent]

Problem is we can't balance the game around players with high ping (I'm one of those players so my view isn't "biased"). Once the game has enough players we should be able to play in our own low ping regions, as such restricting overall improvement of game mechanics for our sake doesn't seem like such a good idea.

In the mean time, for those of us that do currently play on high ping, the devs should focus on decreasing latency and possibly adding something that compensates those of us with it (as has been discussed on other threads something for example that reads where we shot then scans to see if any players were in that location when taking into account the latency difference)

[ShadowWarg]

DerMax, on December 27 2013 - 03:16 AM, said:

Xacius, on December 27 2013 - 12:33 AM, said:

Here's a question I have for everyone:

Should items in Hawken follow the same balancing guidelines as internals_

I don't understand your question. Could you please reword it or elaborate on it_

If I understand it correctly, he is asking if items in the game should have the same requirements the provide more of a utility use, rather than items that give out "free" damage, health, etc. or times that lower the requirements for skills need for other aspects of the game.

An example of such an item that many people have an issue with is the Detonator, as it is just an insta-damage weapon offering no real depth to it. The older shield, is another example as it pretty much stopped all open options for the attacker while the defender just sat inside dealing large amount of damage outward or healing while remaining complete safe. It required no skill, timing, or planning to use and was pretty much a get out of jail free card and instantly turn the tide of battle in favor of the user.

Anyway back to the question, I would say yes. And I would love to see Luminescent's breakdown of items as well.

Off topic

Spoiler

Imo, Items that have more utility use, and need more planning than others are

• Turrets (this is arguable though)
  
• Barricade
  
• Scrambler
  
• Flashbang
  
• H.E. Charge
  
• Hologram
  
• And the OLD bubble shield that allowed splash damage to bleed through.

Edited by ShadowWarg, December 27 2013 - 09:47 AM.

[Aptest]

my biggest gripe with the detonator is that in order to balance it against granting burst mechs too high an alpha, secondary weapon damage got nerfed, resulting in secondary weapons losing some of their "awesomeness".

[DerMax]

ShadowWarg, on December 27 2013 - 09:39 AM, said:

DerMax, on December 27 2013 - 03:16 AM, said:

Xacius, on December 27 2013 - 12:33 AM, said:

Here's a question I have for everyone:

Should items in Hawken follow the same balancing guidelines as internals_

I don't understand your question. Could you please reword it or elaborate on it_

If I understand it correctly, he is asking if items in the game should have the same requirements the provide more of a utility use, rather than items that give out "free" damage, health, etc. or times that lower the requirements for skills need for other aspects of the game.

An example of such an item that many people have an issue with is the Detonator, as it is just an insta-damage weapon offering no real depth to it. The older shield, is another example as it pretty much stopped all open options for the attacker while the defender just sat inside dealing large amount of damage outward or healing while remaining complete safe. It required no skill, timing, or planning to use and was pretty much a get out of jail free card and instantly turn the tide of battle in favor of the user.

Anyway back to the question, I would say yes. And I would love to see Luminescent's breakdown of items as well.

Off topic

Spoiler

Imo, Items that have more utility use, and need more planning than others are

• Turrets (this is arguable though)
  
• Barricade
  
• Scrambler
  
• Flashbang
  
• H.E. Charge
  
• Hologram
  
• And the OLD bubble shield that allowed splash damage to bleed through.

In such a case, what difference would there be between internals and items_

[ShadowWarg]

DerMax, on December 27 2013 - 03:48 PM, said:

ShadowWarg, on December 27 2013 - 09:39 AM, said:

DerMax, on December 27 2013 - 03:16 AM, said:

Xacius, on December 27 2013 - 12:33 AM, said:

Here's a question I have for everyone:

Should items in Hawken follow the same balancing guidelines as internals_

I don't understand your question. Could you please reword it or elaborate on it_

If I understand it correctly, he is asking if items in the game should have the same requirements the provide more of a utility use, rather than items that give out "free" damage, health, etc. or times that lower the requirements for skills need for other aspects of the game.

An example of such an item that many people have an issue with is the Detonator, as it is just an insta-damage weapon offering no real depth to it. The older shield, is another example as it pretty much stopped all open options for the attacker while the defender just sat inside dealing large amount of damage outward or healing while remaining complete safe. It required no skill, timing, or planning to use and was pretty much a get out of jail free card and instantly turn the tide of battle in favor of the user.

Anyway back to the question, I would say yes. And I would love to see Luminescent's breakdown of items as well.

Off topic

Spoiler

Imo, Items that have more utility use, and need more planning than others are

• Turrets (this is arguable though)
  
• Barricade
  
• Scrambler
  
• Flashbang
  
• H.E. Charge
  
• Hologram
  
• And the OLD bubble shield that allowed splash damage to bleed through.

In such a case, what difference would there be between internals and items_

Items and internals server two fundamental differences. Internals effects the internal actions and performance of the mech (stat and value changes, side grades, how the mech is controlled and played directly) and are normally limited to only the user, as well as being persistent with continued use throughout the entire match. Items effect the external environment outside of your mech (attacking and defending players, providing intel, etc depending the item) and can effect both friendly and enemy players. Items (as to date) also all have a limited lifespan, normally not persistent and can also be effected by outside factors not just limited to the user, such as being destroyed by enemy players.

Let me give an example using a couple of non existent item and internal

Internal: Reinforced Armor
-Decreases all damage received by 10%
-Decreases movement speed by 5%

The above internal effects will remain active the entire time the player is alive and effects the performance of the mech both in a positive and negative way. The internal also will not be effected by direct outside factors such as an enemy intentionally trying to destroy it.

Item: Riot Shield
-Reduces all frontal damage received by 40%
-Health: 500

The Item will also give the user a reduction in damage just like the internal, HOWEVER the item can be effected by external influences such as the enemy player attacking it (rather than shooting from behind), hence the health. Once the health reaches 0 the item is destroy and the user will no longer receive the benefits that the item was providing.

There are a few exception to the above such as the armor reconstructor which only activates when NOT being attacked, so in turn IS effected by condition outside the mech, however it still cannot be disabled by the opponent and will remain "active" constantly.

The only time an internal can be effected by an out side source would be if the opposing player used an item that disables internals for x amount of time, but seeing as how such an item does not exist.....yeah.

Edited by ShadowWarg, December 27 2013 - 09:25 PM.

[HugeGuts]

Here's how I see internals in the end - There are two types of internals: Stat boosts and generic abilities.

For stat boosts, the only way I can see them working is if their boosts are a percentage increase tied to an existing stat. Example: Advanced Armor Fusor - You reconstruct 20% of your maximum armor over 20 seconds. In contrast to internals with a flat increase: Advanced Repair Kit - You gain 40% more health from life orbs. Flat increases obviously benefit certain classes more than others, leading to inflexible builds. Tying internals to a class' preexisting strengths and weaknesses should mitigate this problem. Examples:

Deflectors - Reduces damage taken while boosting by 1% of your max armor.
Reconstructor - After being out of combat for 10 seconds, your mech regenerates 2% of its max armor every one second.
Repair Kit - (Note: Life orb repair rate is now based on a percentage of your max armor. Let's say 5% every one second.) Life orbs now heal 8% of your max armor every one second.

However, stat boosts can only completely work if every class has the same generic offense/defense/movement tuning options. I doubt a class without a booster tuning option or a strong default boosting stat will ever take a booster improving internal.

For generic abilities, I notice some internals and items are basically partial implementations of class abilities. I think those internals will improve if they work like abilities instead of being active all the time. Examples:

Armor Fusor - For 10 seconds, taking damage causes the armor fusor to build repair charges. When the effect ends, armor fusor repairs 15% of damage taken in the last 10 seconds over 3 seconds.
Fuel Converter - For 5 seconds, taking damage instantly fills 1% of your fuel tank.
Power Surger - Your run speed increases by 10% for 12 seconds.

As long as generic abilities don't mean damage or recovery without a downside, they shouldn't be an issue.

Finally, I think its possible for almost every internal to have 3 different slot sizes. The differences simply need to be proportional. Two slots should have double the effect of one slot, and three slots should have triple the effect of one slot. To prevent superior choices, downsides for larger slots come in. However, they're only downsides to the point where each slot version balances with each other. Examples:

Armor Fusor - For 10 seconds, taking damage causes the armor fusor to build repair charges. When the effect ends, armor fusor repairs 15%/30%/45% of damage taken in the last 10 seconds over 3/6/9 seconds.
Power Surger - Your run speed increases by 10%/20%/30% for 12/8/4 seconds.
Deflectors - Reduces damage while boosting by 1%/2%/3% of your max armor.

What the downside actually is depends on the mechanics involved. If the effect is minor, then simply giving up a slot is downside enough. Other downsides could be taking damage, a delayed effect, or a combination of downsides.

Edited by HugeGuts, December 29 2013 - 09:32 AM.

[fingerknitter]

Aptest, on December 27 2013 - 10:54 AM, said:

my biggest gripe with the detonator is that in order to balance it against granting burst mechs too high an alpha, secondary weapon damage got nerfed, resulting in secondary weapons losing some of their "awesomeness".

I personally detest the detonator, HE charge, repair charge, and the shield how they are now. They benefit A class mechs far more than other mechs. You know how having weapons shared between mechs makes it harder to balance_ Well how about having tertiary damage/health options between ALL MECHS like the items I listed_ I think we need better items that do not provide as direct of an advantage without including MORE player skill in their execution. I think the barrier is a far more healthy item gameplay wise than the shield, and I would like to see more items like that than the ones we have now.

[CounterlogicMan]

I really like this. I am all for just out right pitching the mentioned bad internals and adding the ones you suggested. I am iffy on some of the movement internals but it is hard to say without seeing them in use and seeing how they interact with each other in real gameplay.

Hughes if you are out there, you and the team need to take a serious look at the ideas in OP.

[DaPheel]

some nice ideas - keep up the good work!

[HugeGuts]

Thinking about it, I realize current internals are very similar to the original, pre nerfed optimization trees. The intention of internals is to change the way a class approaches battles. The pre nerfed optimization trees did the same thing, but much, much better. The reason for this is, again, using a percentage increase of an existing stat instead of a flat increase. They didn't have passive affects that were strong enough to be better off as generic abilities either.

I wonder if looking at the old optimization trees can help design and improve internals. Separate internals into Offense, Defense, and Movement categories at the least.

[Ketobor]

Began writing some ideas at the end of the document, but this service is trash. Multi-second delays between everything I do and having a result. Blocks of text disappearing for no reason.

Why do you use this instead of google docs_

[Luminescent]

Quote

Began writing some ideas at the end of the document, but this service is trash. Multi-second delays between everything I do and having a result. Blocks of text disappearing for no reason.

Why do you use this instead of google docs_

Not to sound like some product advertisement but as I use Microsoft Office and Skydrive, naturally their web apps make the most sense for me to use (seamless syncing and access between everything). Additionally, the appearance remains identical regardless of if I'm using the desktop or web based version (which I alternate between frequently) and as someone who is very fond of formatting I like to know exactly what I'm altering (and some of their apps have additional functionality which surpasses that of Google's equivalent).

Anyway, I don't have any of the issues that you describe, but you might as well post your ideas directly in the thread as I don't think anyone else in the community is viewing that doc anymore (which was its purpose - to allow community review) or if you want I can do it for you.

[HugeGuts]

I have another idea. What if there aren't multiple slot versions of the same internal_ Instead internal slots dictate an internal's basic type. Here's what I mean:

One slot - Passive boosts (Heat Sinks)
Two slots - Conditional boosts (Deflectors)
Three slots - Generic abilities (Power Surge)

Edited by HugeGuts, January 09 2014 - 07:58 AM.

[DerMax]

Bump. Please make dis happen, Vana.