16 replies to this topic

[Unknown_Kadath]

This is exactly what the title says it is, so strap in.

Firstly, I doubt everyone has ignored how the Brawler and Scout have EXACTLY the same primary weapon, and then the Scout has a HEAVY VERSION of the flak cannon that the Brawler comes with.
Second, Scouts love to jump all over the place, like a five year old that got into pure sugar mixed with crack. Mechs are normally created in games to be gun boats of sorts, relying on ranged combat (as in, a dozen plus yards or more) to hit one another and attempt to dodge hits. Every Scout pilot knows this, thus they literally jump on top of you, negating long-ranged weapons. You'd think that a shotgun-styled mech like the Raider would stand a chance, but no dice. As it turns out, the TOW is still splash-damage based, so they don't even have to make direct hits.
Combined with being the smallest (or very nearly, the Tech is pretty damn close), it's hard to hit it at range, then impossible with their fuel reserve able to keep you burning fuel well after they flak the piss out of you. You'd assume in any other game, that a Scout would do what a scout SHOULD do; provide intel on enemy movement, and have enough armament to defend themselves, not to act like a one-man army.

Then, there's the Hellfire.

Everyone is beside themselves with the recent nerfing of this weapon, but it was honestly the best defense against them. It's the only weapon that constantly tracks after firing, so it had a much better chance of actually hitting them before they try to climb into your cockpit with you, and firing a lock-on up in the air usually resulted in one or two warheads hitting. Combined with the Vulcan, you MIGHT get a few dozen random hits. With the damage reduction, I've seen Scouts fully heal, time and time again, by walking through a dropped orb, then boosting straight in again, as if it didn't mean a damn thing.

tl;dr
Scout carries weapons that C class mechs have, yet is the smallest. Doesn't make much sense, and USED to be challenged by Hellfires, but no more.

Feel free to call me an idiot for speaking about against the all-mighty Scout, I think I can take it...

[Akrium]

The reason why the scout can have the same weapon loadout is because the balance is in speed vs health. A C class mech has twice (dramatisation) the health of an A class mech. Thus the skill is on the A class pilot for evading the damage. If a scout and a brawler were to go toe to toe and not move the brawler would win every time.

That is why they can have the same gun loadout and not be balanced poorly.

Now is speed vs health balanced right yet_ Don't think so.. but we also have to balance sustain vs burst/poke dmg as well. So the game still has balancing it needs to go through yet.

Also you can hit scouts perfectly fine once you play more and get used to the aiming/timing of the game. Using a crutch of a weapon that does the aiming for you does NOT help you learn to play this game better. The hellfires are meant to be something easier for new players to use, but not be better than weapons that actually take skill to use effectively.

[Unknown_Kadath]

Akrium, on December 19 2013 - 09:20 AM, said:

The reason why the scout can have the same weapon loadout is because the balance is in speed vs health. A C class mech has twice (dramatisation) the health of an A class mech. Thus the skill is on the A class pilot for evading the damage. If a scout and a brawler were to go toe to toe and not move the brawler would win every time.

That is why they can have the same gun loadout and not be balanced poorly.

To be honest, a heavy with such a loadout would make more sense, in my eyes, to be one of, if not THE, fastest heavy. The lore does explain the mechs being lighter from finding a new material, but the weapons themselves add a lot of weight, as well as munition. Loading a cannon and a missile system onto the smallest unit doesn't make much sense, though something akin to the 242 Bushmaster would make perfect sense on it. Enough to deter armor from following up, but not enough to be a serious threat.

Akrium, on December 19 2013 - 09:20 AM, said:

Now is speed vs health balanced right yet_ Don't think so.. but we also have to balance sustain vs burst/poke dmg as well. So the game still has balancing it needs to go through yet.

Also you can hit scouts perfectly fine once you play more and get used to the aiming/timing of the game. Using a crutch of a weapon that does the aiming for you does NOT help you learn to play this game better. The hellfires are meant to be something easier for new players to use, but not be better than weapons that actually take skill to use effectively.

Everyone has to play the balance game with such things, so the speed vs. health thing is very easily nullified. If you want a fast mech, there are internals that assist with that as well.
I see what you mean by "crutch", I guess I over-looked that. In the Army, we rely on superior firepower for whatever we can, part of the reason why we have the M109A6 Paladin. It might be interesting to have another weapon that has a "soft-lock", that it jumps so far out of the weapon, then aims itself at wherever you point your crosshairs. Could add interesting game play, a lot like the RPG in Half Life, but without self-guidance fire-and-forget. Just an idea.

[Akrium]

I think you may be getting caught up in too much realism =) This is more arcade than sim.

This is just a game after all and in games one has to factor in balancing and other things to keep things as close to fair as they can. Something Hawken hasn't spent a metric ton of time on yet. They have been doing little balances here and there and taking it slow. Not to say they won't down the road, it just hasn't been on their priority list as much as squashing some nasty bugs and exploits.

Also many people have brought up the idea of the half life rpg and the devs like the idea. So we may see something like that down the road =) Personally I think the turning cap speed will make that gun a bit clunky to use. But who knows.. willing to give it a shot either way.

[PoopSlinger]

Hellfires can eat fuzzy bunny

[ropefish]

i wish i had those timing skills, i- have played a whole year and still cant get it down :/

[IareDave]

I'm not even sure what you're complaining about regarding the scout and brawler. So what they share the same weapon set_ They are different style mechs, both requiring you to get in close but one is simply squishier than the other

[fingerknitter]

Unknown_Kadath, on December 19 2013 - 09:53 AM, said:

Akrium, on December 19 2013 - 09:20 AM, said:

The reason why the scout can have the same weapon loadout is because the balance is in speed vs health. A C class mech has twice (dramatisation) the health of an A class mech. Thus the skill is on the A class pilot for evading the damage. If a scout and a brawler were to go toe to toe and not move the brawler would win every time.

That is why they can have the same gun loadout and not be balanced poorly.

To be honest, a heavy with such a loadout would make more sense, in my eyes, to be one of, if not THE, fastest heavy. The lore does explain the mechs being lighter from finding a new material, but the weapons themselves add a lot of weight, as well as munition. Loading a cannon and a missile system onto the smallest unit doesn't make much sense, though something akin to the 242 Bushmaster would make perfect sense on it. Enough to deter armor from following up, but not enough to be a serious threat.

Akrium, on December 19 2013 - 09:20 AM, said:

Now is speed vs health balanced right yet_ Don't think so.. but we also have to balance sustain vs burst/poke dmg as well. So the game still has balancing it needs to go through yet.

Also you can hit scouts perfectly fine once you play more and get used to the aiming/timing of the game. Using a crutch of a weapon that does the aiming for you does NOT help you learn to play this game better. The hellfires are meant to be something easier for new players to use, but not be better than weapons that actually take skill to use effectively.

Everyone has to play the balance game with such things, so the speed vs. health thing is very easily nullified. If you want a fast mech, there are internals that assist with that as well.
I see what you mean by "crutch", I guess I over-looked that. In the Army, we rely on superior firepower for whatever we can, part of the reason why we have the M109A6 Paladin. It might be interesting to have another weapon that has a "soft-lock", that it jumps so far out of the weapon, then aims itself at wherever you point your crosshairs. Could add interesting game play, a lot like the RPG in Half Life, but without self-guidance fire-and-forget. Just an idea.

You mean like the Javelin missile launcher_ I would LOBE to see it on a C class mech! I'd call it

DER RIESE

Mwuahahaha

[Fstroke]

Akrium said:

The hellfires are meant to be something easier for new players to use, but not be better than weapons that actually take skill to use effectively.

Ehh I dont think this is true. Hellfires conceptually were part of the game way before even alpha. You can see them with similar behaviour in the early demo videos. Way before the devs were considering casual vs competitive play and the like. Regardless of how you feel about them that wasnt their intent.

[Aptest]

hellfires should not be better or worse than other secondaries. i definitely think they should not be a crappy secondary that noobs should use if they can't manage the tow.

they have been changed a little bit since i was last here, damage went down a lil` but mostly they lost their ability to lock from very far away (making them not as good at dislodging snipers), their tracking went down a significant bit (which makes them less able to hit close up) and their initial firing trajectory got changed (which makes it possible to arch them around obstacles now).

Overall they are a better mid range weapon than they used to be, and a worse long and short range weapon than they used to be. They don't take a great deal of skill to properly use - but that's not really a reason to make them weak because then you'll have all the good players not use them at all and you probably do want the good players to have a selection of valid options as opposed to "most skill needed = biggest bang = only options at high level".

[Grizzled]

Akrium, on December 19 2013 - 10:20 AM, said:

I think you may be getting caught up in too much realism =) This is more arcade than sim.

This is just a game after all and in games one has to factor in balancing and other things to keep things as close to fair as they can. Something Hawken hasn't spent a metric ton of time on yet. They have been doing little balances here and there and taking it slow. Not to say they won't down the road, it just hasn't been on their priority list as much as squashing some nasty bugs and exploits.

Also many people have brought up the idea of the half life rpg and the devs like the idea. So we may see something like that down the road =) Personally I think the turning cap speed will make that gun a bit clunky to use. But who knows.. willing to give it a shot either way.

naah, it takes a very special brawler player to win v.s. a scout, that or a massive terrain advantage.

Who said hellfires are easy mode_ I have heard players say it, but otherwise have seen nothing in any of the literature otherwise...Did I miss it somewhere_

I don't think that scout is completely broke compared to the mechanics on heat cannon right now.

[OmegaNull]

I don't jump... and I kick most people around >.> A GOOD scout in team play needs to be able to do the following:

• Situation awareness
  
• Understand they cannot win against multiple mechs
  
• Use guerrilla tactics
  
• Use speed, movement, and positioning to your advantage
  
• Learn to land your hits (this is KEY to any mech)
  
• Know when to run
  
• Call out to your team where the enemy is
  
• Be careful about jumping and use only when needed unless you have air compressors.

The scout has the exact same weapons as the brawler. The flak is the same as well. Most C-class have issues hitting A class... Well, I can tell you, that extra flub makes it easier to fight an A class. Learn to keep them in front of you at all times and land your shots. A class will go down... quickly. Especially scouts.

Edited by OmegaNull, December 21 2013 - 08:35 PM.

[RedVan]

HF is good ATM. Situational, easy to avoid, but also easy to use, thus not very high damage.

What sucks is vs 3-4 HF spammers in a match. No matter where you go to avoid one salvo, you get hit by another. But, those matches are infrequent, so not something really worth complaining about outside of said match.

[palad1ne]

RedVan, on December 24 2013 - 09:26 PM, said:

HF is good ATM. Situational, easy to avoid, but also easy to use, thus not very high damage.

What sucks is vs 3-4 HF spammers in a match. No matter where you go to avoid one salvo, you get hit by another. But, those matches are infrequent, so not something really worth complaining about outside of said match.

This could be easy fixed with class restriction in some game modes. But this is like praying to the deaf.

[RedVan]

palad1ne, on December 26 2013 - 07:42 AM, said:

RedVan, on December 24 2013 - 09:26 PM, said:

HF is good ATM. Situational, easy to avoid, but also easy to use, thus not very high damage.

What sucks is vs 3-4 HF spammers in a match. No matter where you go to avoid one salvo, you get hit by another. But, those matches are infrequent, so not something really worth complaining about outside of said match.

This could be easy fixed with class restriction in some game modes. But this is like praying to the deaf.

I dont really see need for class restrictions.  The times stuff like this happen are pretty few and far between, and even when it does happen, it is still counterable.  Just a neuscance is all.

[Bazookagofer]

palad1ne, on December 26 2013 - 07:42 AM, said:

RedVan, on December 24 2013 - 09:26 PM, said:

HF is good ATM. Situational, easy to avoid, but also easy to use, thus not very high damage.

What sucks is vs 3-4 HF spammers in a match. No matter where you go to avoid one salvo, you get hit by another. But, those matches are infrequent, so not something really worth complaining about outside of said match.

This could be easy fixed with class restriction in some game modes. But this is like praying to the deaf.

When i still played this game there were alot of people playing rocketeers because of the er"OP HF" and then they... BOMBBED BIG... sucked completely... had no idea what they were doing... were treating my best baby like a scout or infil...
BY THE WAY IM HALF WAY TO 1000 POSTS!!!

ps. to stay on topic i ask for a complete overhaul of HF.

Edited by Bazookagofer, December 26 2013 - 09:26 AM.

[driedjello]

On TDM, it's nice to have a guy or two in the rear like a bruiser to chew on scouts who burst into the front lines.  I suppose the scout could flank and hit your support but like was said before, it's about situational awareness and ganging up on scouts with at least two mechs who have a little distance apart.  I find the Vanguard is my best defense.  It's tough, quick and between the grenade launcher (superb close combat weapon) and the mini-cannon (you can afford to miss a lot and not overheat) the scout can be manageable, even in 1v1.  The Bruiser ain't bad either if you can dumbfire the hellfires onto the ground right after the scout dodges.  If they run, you can lock, arc and track them.