21 replies to this topic

[kazuya989]

As a veteran pilot who actually likes co-op ....

It's just so EASY now.   I have won the last 12 games of Co-op i have played and have rarely felt under threat.


Game mode -  PRE-Countermeasures

Co-op used to a challenge to most players.  Even a team on Teamspeak would not be guaranteed victory.
Completing it required a team to stick together and work effectively.
It was only just possible for PUB's, and that's how it should be.

When players died, the moments of trying to run/regroup/get to the hologram and resurrect, led to some awesome moments of panic/on the fly planning/exhilaration/despair.

Check out the video below - Wave 22 / 23 and Wave 25 are great illustrations of a team on the edge of disaster, having to pull together to survive
http://www.twitch.tv..._mwun/c/3213953

The moments of... you are the only one left, and you have to res your team whilst being chased by 10 bots, were genuinely fun and challenging, and something you didn't get in PVP.


Game Mode - TODAY

When you die, press the "magic button" and self-resurrect, or use jumpstarter and do the same thing to a team-mate.

Rinse and repeat and Viola, win every time !

It's getting boring which is a real shame.  
Right now its still really good for training new clan pilots on teamspeak communication, but as a challenging game mode...it has no future like this.


SOLUTION

Remove the 2 resurrect countermeasures - keep the rest for now

Increase the difficulty.  
The AI moves well and swarms effectively, but feels too squishy, needs a armour boost as a minimum.

I would like to hear any other ideas from other pilots.

This game mode has allot of potential, to offer something extra to the standard PVP game modes, but the current 2 "I win" countermeasures are ruining it.


If you made it to the end then thanks for reading.

[Rocky1822]

I agree with you Kaz, and I too hope these countermeasures are removed..

As for the AI's, I don't think there is a problem with them since their lack of armor is compensated by their movements which are pretty decent at the least..

Edited by Rocky1822, February 24 2014 - 04:35 AM.

[Vilyria]

Well, for me it's still very hard to try to stay alive even in this mode.
I just wonder for who is the bot mode made to serve. Beginners or veterans_ ^.^;

[Rocky1822]

Vilyria, on February 24 2014 - 05:00 AM, said:

I just wonder for who is the bot mode made to serve. Beginners or veterans_ ^.^;

They are made to improve teamwork I guess_

Edited by Rocky1822, February 24 2014 - 05:15 AM.

[OmegaNull]

I think these items should be limited in use.

[fez]

They are.  They're the most expensive consumables to use.

[kazuya989]

@ Vily,  
Ideally I would like to be able to choose a difficulty level at the start,  these could have pre-set values for the bots, therefore enabling players to select the difficulty that they feel is most appropriate.

Given the other priorities the Devs have, its unlikely to happen.  Whilst a slight adjustment to mech armour is probably much easier to do.

Your point is really valid though, it was hard before, most PUB teams would die between levels 10-15, even with level 30 players.  
With that though came a real sense of achievement when you did well, even if you had finished it before, and you knew what your were doing, because it was never a guaranteed win,  -  It is now.  

The only times I have nearly failed is when we play "silly" because we don't fear the bots.  For example the other night my team on Frontline attacked the level 10 brawler first, right at the start of the wave, and we killed him before the other bots got to the bakery side of the level.  That doesn't feel right to me.  We shouldn't feel safe to do that.  Boss levels should be feared.


@ Rocky
It certainly does improve teamwork, especially if you are on Teamspeak.  Good opportunity for people to try squad leading, or getting used to co-ordinating as a team.

Even in a PUB team with only typing, it made people play together to win, it was the only way  - now u can play lone wolf and res yourself


@Omega Null,  
It would be a start to limit uses that's for sure, maybe a longer cool down too, but I would like to see the 2 resurrect ones scrapped, and players have to stand on the hologram and res with the F key like before.  Getting to the hologram under fire was the most difficult and rewarding part of the game for me.

[kazuya989]

fez, on February 24 2014 - 05:31 AM, said:

They are.  They're the most expensive consumables to use.

They should be,  they are in effect  " I WIN "  buttons.

[Seron16]

Good point Kaz, I agree they should be changed, however I think something like a single "charge" per a match or something would probably be a better fix than entirely removing them. I may be wrong but you don't have to use the countermeasures anyway correct_ So therefore make them a more balanced alternative, but still give people the option.

Edited by Seron16, February 24 2014 - 06:33 AM.

[Vilyria]

kazuya989, on February 24 2014 - 05:39 AM, said:

@ Vily,  
Ideally I would like to be able to choose a difficulty level at the start,  these could have pre-set values for the bots, therefore enabling players to select the difficulty that they feel is most appropriate.

Given the other priorities the Devs have, its unlikely to happen.  Whilst a slight adjustment to mech armour is probably much easier to do.

Your point is really valid though, it was hard before, most PUB teams would die between levels 10-15, even with level 30 players.  
With that though came a real sense of achievement when you did well, even if you had finished it before, and you knew what your were doing, because it was never a guaranteed win,  -  It is now.  

The only times I have nearly failed is when we play "silly" because we don't fear the bots.  For example the other night my team on Frontline attacked the level 10 brawler first, right at the start of the wave, and we killed him before the other bots got to the bakery side of the level.  That doesn't feel right to me.  We shouldn't feel safe to do that.  Boss levels should be feared.

Kaz~

I think it would be good for you to be able to choose the difficulty (easy, medium, hard...) It would totally make some sense, but since there only is one mode, there ain't much you can do. When you find a group who work well together and use teamspeak too, the bot game is pretty much trough.

I have tried games with random players who are close to my own level and average wave I have reached has been between 5-10. So not really that good.
For more advanced players such as you and many other members of TAW, your idea with difficulty levels would be great.
But I wouldn't be happy about the idea that only this one co-op that we have would get even harder. Nunu~

[kazuya989]

@ Seron

You're correct Seron, it's completely optional, but lets face it, if the choice is....
A) Don't push the button and risk losing the whole game
or
Push button and I win
..then the human instinct for survival is going to push that button 99%-100% of the time.

It becomes a crutch and therefore takes away that level of excitement that your next mistake could kill the whole team, or that the AI may do something amazing and take you all down, unless you react in an equally amazing way and escape.

Death has no penalty other than a few hawken credits, and victory becomes less earned and more paid for.

The real cost is the loss of the adrenaline rush that co-op should give to new and veteran players.  It used to do that.  
The video link I posted has several clutch moments that are not possible with the current Meta, because 1 button press and the bad situation goes away.  

As a compromise I do like the single use idea, a kind of break glass in case of emergency (still feel those 2 should be removed), but for others countermeasures (health depositor / shield etc) they should remain on a cooldown as now, because they are not game breaking and actually kind of cool.
I'm not against Countermeasures at all, just the 2 revive ones.

[Seron16]

Absolutely, the other CMs should be kept the same, just change the revives HWK!

[fez]

I play a fair bit of co-op with friends.  TBH I don't see the 2 rez consumables as game breaking.  Now I know I'm only a sample size of one, but my observance of their use has been this:

1.  People only tend to use the charged beacon after round 15.

2.  People only tend to use it once, at most twice a game, if at all.

I've never seen anyone use the team mate rez one.

I've also observed us losing from time to time in Co-op mode.  If people really want to use their consumable charges like popcorn, let them.  It hurts their profits, and increases their enjoyment of the game.  Win-win for the devs.  If people using the consumable charges a lot is how they need to play the game, so be it.  Let them.  No one forces YOU to use it.  Switch yours out if it bothers you so much.

For the record, I'm ambivalent to them.  They're there, so I make a calculated choice to use them or not.  If they were removed I wouldn't care.

[kazuya989]

Thanks for the feedback fez,  you make some interesting points,

1.   I agree Most people do use the self-rez on later rounds .... exactly when it gets harder, as i said above, it's a crutch and is removing the need for pilots to improve their skills to beat the harder levels.  Later levels should be hard or.. no challenge = no re-playability

2.  Maybe your experience is that, but I play with a wide variety of clan mates, and used to play PUB games for the challenge, and as a way to meet new pilots.
In my experience the self-rez is taken by everyone and used asap after someone dies.

The real problem is this...... when pilots start self-rezing, the experience has been cheapened for the whole team.  On most occasions the remaining 1/2or3 pilots could kite round the map, dodge into cover, run for their lives and reach the downed teammate and resurrect the old fashioned way whilst under fire.
The gameplay would be glorious, the sense of achievement would be huge......or now you can just press a button and the bad stuff goes away, as does the opportunity for user "set piece" moments of awesome.

Think of COD with the set-piece moments removed,  just 100% whack a mole bland shooter.

The whole experience becomes casual, popcorn gameplay, which most pilots will quickly abandon.  I think Co-op can be and should be much more than that. (just look at titanfall)

I'm all for gameplay enhancing countermeasures, or ones that are just cool, and yes if people want to spam them like popcorn then no problem with that.
I just don't want any that change the overall experience, if that is in a negative way, or in a way that allows you to skip past the hard bits (and best bits IMO) using a bit of HC.

You are quite right of course, no one forces you to use them, a team could just agree up front not to use them and that's fine for pre-mades. Not sure anyone will play PUB games, but its a perfectly valid option if you have a group of friends and/or are in an awesome clan like me.  WWW.Taw.net

[S4LT]

As long as they can make people feel like they have to buy Meteor Credits in order to beat co-op, the devs are never going to remove the self-revive.

[kazuya989]

@S4LT

I hope your wrong about that.

The Devs have shown consistently that they do listen, and read these forums.

Hawken has never felt like a money grab unlike many other games.  It's never been pay to win, so I don't see why they would want to make the Co-op like that.

You can also buy countermeasures with HC.  
The revive countermeasures sounded like a great idea, and it's only after playing with them that I saw the problem.

[kanamisan]

what they can do to salt you is to make a fifth level, where the bots have all the buffs from the first three difficulty buffs and on top of that, you can no longer use countermeasures. that would give the supper hardcore players something to do, but not hurt the ability of the average player to play the way they have grown to addicted to. at most, it will take about 30min to code and implement.

[LeeHarveyOz]

Only tried in pub's. Never gotten past wave 23. I seem to be the only one using the rez, so either it's plenty limited, or I have had bad luck with groups.

[kazuya989]

Hey there,

Good ideas, it expands on the new mutated game modes which are a great addition, as they do provide a tougher challenge.  Glass cannon is particularly nasty .

When I play with clan mates we have all taken off the Jump Starter and Charged beacon consumables, they are effectively banned, and it has brought the fun and challenge back to co-op for us.

To be fair on the "super hardcore" player thing, more often than not, a TAW european team will consist of 2 players around 2000 MMR and 2 at 1600-1700 MMR.  
In TAW, we are really big on helping new / newish players to improve, and Co-op is a great way to do it, as voice communication is key in any mode, and the 4 man team is a mini-squad compared to normal 6, and allows us to focus more time on the newer players.


At the end of the day though, people have the right to play co-op any way they want.  I am all for choice.

My issue was (and still is), that co-op with auto revival is a cheap easy mode that encourages YOLO tactics because death has no consequence other than a few HC, and therefore new players learn no skills from it, (you can't auto revive in TDM)

The Dev's for example played a co-op during a recent QA session, and were dropping like flies only to auto revive.  
IMO totally cheapens the whole mode, many players don't play it at all for this reason - and I don't play PUB Co-ops for same reason.

Co-op played properly forces players to use tactics, and support each other, because death can (and often does) wreck the whole team.

And also the moments of having to revive a downed teammate by retreating and repositioning, are often tense and hilarious in equal measure, but also amazingly satisfying when it works.

One solution would be the option to ban the jump starter and charged beacon at the start, using the same voting system as for game mode. Democracy in action.

[kazuya989]

LeeHarveyOz, on April 03 2014 - 03:58 AM, said:

Only tried in pub's. Never gotten past wave 23. I seem to be the only one using the rez, so either it's plenty limited, or I have had bad luck with groups.

It's only limitations are that you cant be the last one left alive,  as it won't work in those situation.  You probably have had bad luck with pubs.

You are welcome to add me as friend in game   Kazuya989  and  Ninja_Goat   and we can have a go at it (but NO jump starters and charged beacons allowed ),  if some of the clan are around, I'll may be able to get you a full TAW escort to victory.

Edited by kazuya989, April 03 2014 - 04:14 AM.