16 replies to this topic

[Targetloc]

I've searched the forums a bit and the over-all opinion of the Bruiser seems to be pretty low because of its mixed weapon ranges, however I've started to run into some better opponents lately that have given me a really rough time in my Assault or Reaper.

I guess my first question is, is it possible to dodge locked on Hellfires in the open_  I've tried last minute dodges, and even a quick 45 degree turn and dodging on an angle towards the missiles to try to get behind them, but they seem to still turn and hit me every time.  My ping is consistently around 40 ms, but I'm open to the possibility I'm still dodging too early or too late.


From the Assault perspective, I'm having a hard time deciding the best range to engage from.  

Long range with cover turns into a standstill.  I can LOS the rockets and out DPS the vulcan, but it's also extremely easy for him to dodge TOW at that range, and little effort for the Bruiser to LOS and repair, or disengage.

Long range in the open, Hellfire wins.

Mid range feels like the worst option because a skilled pilot saves his dodge for my TOW shots, and glancing TOW bursts + SMC doesn't out-DPS consistent Hellfire hits and Vulcan.

Close range I get wrecked fast by the Vulcan and dumb-fired clusters.

Obviously I need to improve my game somehow, but I need to know the range I should be forcing the fight to.


For the Reaper, obviously anything in the open is a no-go.  Two Hellfires and even a sneeze from the Vulcan will put you down.

Close range feels like suicide because the Vulcan will easily chew you down and it's very hard to keep breaking LOS against a good pilot to out-burst with the Sabot.

Mid range with lots of cover feels like the best option if I'm actually trying to go for the kill, but on some of the more open maps like Last Eco or Bunker there's a lot of areas where they can jet up and lob a Hellfire on you.

I feel like I'm limited to harassing him from long range cover until he either decides to come after me, or sets up camp and waits for me to come to him.

I guess I could also try to force a close quarters corner fight and make him choose between keeping his Vulcan spun up and overheating, but if there's an easier way I'd love to hear it.

[Stingz]

Mid range open air combat is where Bruiser dominates, especially flying targets.
Fighting a Bruiser isn't easy without cover, it's made to cover all ranges in the open.

Reaper should stick to long range combat with cover, Hellfires take time to lock and travel. Close range + Cover is the best since both of Bruisers default weapons heat up fast and can't react fast enough.

Hellfires in general are awful in close combat: high heat, long reload, big spread, and lag before the booster jets kick in.

Edited by Stingz, March 20 2014 - 06:29 PM.

[OmegaNull]

Cover. If you are stuck in the open, get under them. Time your dodges right and their hellfires will do nothing.

[XyXly]

Hellfires_ Dodge em. Dodge behind cover and they'll hit the wall. I should know, with a Rocketeer, I stopped bothering to go for enemies near cover unless it's suppressive fire.

[Duralumi]

If you're getting hit by dumbfired Hellfires then you seriously need to work on your movement patterns and dodging. They literally require like two seconds of prediction time.

Bruiser is terrible at long range and terrible at close range; and terrible at everything when cover is present.

[dorobo]

It's possible to dodge locked on hellfires.. You might be doing that too early. Also if they ar coming at you from above you will get hit by splash damage even if you dodge when they hit the ground near you. And dodging wont help against more than 1 HF user

[Claxus]

Am I unskilled when I say that for the most part, they are undodgeable_ I mean sure, you can dodge them if you see them coming, usually at long range, but at mid-range, is it practical to tell anyone to just dodge them_ The timing is extremely tight, and in the heat of battle, when the opponent is moving and you're also taking damage from other weapons, just how consistently can you dodge them_ They're extremely accurate (that's their whole point, after all), and in the pressure of a battle, it can be very difficult to predict the timing along with the enemy's movement. Not to mention that when they're closer, they can also arc them in any direction.

Basically, I think it's impractical to say 'dodge them' as a counter at anything past long range. Even then it's easy to mess up, especially depending on your mech's weight class. I've fought plenty of veterans and generally at mid-range, I've rarely seen anyone be able to dodge them most of the time. Even myself, I come across against Bruisers sometimes and when we're both dueling at our effective range, even with my Air Compressor I've only ever been able to dodge them one time.

The open field is Bruiser's playground... Especially at midrange. The best way to deal with them one on one is just get in their face and strafe. They have a pretty big deadzone where missiles will just fly straight before trying to home in, so if you're close enough they'll whiff past you and then can't turn around to hit you. You still have to be careful because dumbfire also becomes a decent option for Bruiser, but if you're evasive enough it's still impractical to try and predict a solid shot with dumbfire because their propulsion kicks in a whole second later. Splash damage is the most reliable at that range. So in short, two steps to beat a Bruiser in a duel: Stay very close and try to strafe circles around them, and jump around a lot. Don't stay in the air the whole time because the vulcan can mow you down easier.

To be honest, if you see a Bruiser at a distance, you want to try a different approach. Starting fights is their strong point. Most of the time, if you get them by surprise, they're going to have to rely on a perfectly timed shield ability turnover. But you never want to keep combat against them at midrange. The next best way to take on a Bruiser involves the environment. Like it's been stated, Bruiser needs a lot of time and focus to do his damage, a sustained primary and a slow reloading, lock-on-time secondary. You have more than enough time to take cover after you notice you're under attack by one. Make use of cover, and even hills, because slight elevation can mess up hellfires since they're extremely direct in following you. If you take the fight to cover, just be careful, because if you don't hide completely, they can acquire a lock and arc some missiles around your cover, but they have to get close to do that, so that may be your chance to get up close.

Bruiser's kind of a wildcard, he's still not useless at close range (or any range) due to his vulcan, but when you're that close it can be hard to keep sustained fire. You just gotta learn how those hellfires work, make your move in between the volleys to get in close, or just hide. They can't do much but peek around the corner at that point, where you can get them where they're weakest up close. Of course, you can just fight them at long range if that's possible with your mech. Just tank the missiles because stuff like Reaper has way better DPS at long range, while Bruiser simply pokes at long range. Avoid a direct fight at midrange and you can normally gain the advantage.

tl;dr Bold stuff...

Edited by Claxus, March 20 2014 - 05:58 PM.

[Krellus]

stick to cover to negate hellfires with their incoming warning. out in the open, pop a shield to make your own cover. ive heard tales of legendary a class pilots dodging hellfires in the open, which might be an option too, with enough practice.._ hmm in fact yes ive seen them dodged in the open, and indeed this is a primary reason why I dont use hellfire mechs anymore. no other secondary is as poor as hellfire past mid level.

Edited by Krellus, March 20 2014 - 11:03 PM.

[XyXly]

Claxus, on March 20 2014 - 05:56 PM, said:

Am I unskilled when I say that for the most part, they are undodgeable_ I mean sure, you can dodge them if you see them coming, usually at long range, but at mid-range, is it practical to tell anyone to just dodge them_ The timing is extremely tight, and in the heat of battle, when the opponent is moving and you're also taking damage from other weapons, just how consistently can you dodge them_ They're extremely accurate (that's their whole point, after all), and in the pressure of a battle, it can be very difficult to predict the timing along with the enemy's movement. Not to mention that when they're closer, they can also arc them in any direction.

I don't know about you, but you should be near cover 90% of the time, most of the maps are very ample in cover and you should have no trouble making those hellfires smack the wall harmlessly so long as you hit the shift key and your intended direction of travel. Really, they're terrible and you even get a lock-on warning, heck, if you're out of cover turn left/right and dodge towards em and the hellfires shouldn't be able to turn fast enough to close the parabola.

Edited by XyXly, March 21 2014 - 12:23 AM.

[kazuya989]

There is cover on every map it's true, BUT the quantity and quality of the cover differs dramatically.  

Last Eco, Bunker (and Bazaar to a lesser degree) are Helfire maps, (and Sabots too).  Cover is poorly designed and there are too many open areas that it's almost impossible to stay out of consistently.

That said the point of staying in cover is spot on for every occasion and map.  Cover is a mech's best friend (apart from a good techie) and dodging into cover is a critical skill that every pilot should learn.

For Bruiser specifically, it's a walking contradiction.  Sustained fire primary and lock on secondary don't really go together very well at all.

The primary threat with any mech is it's secondary weapon. That's where the burst damage is, and burst is still better than sustained.

To limit the hellfires get in close.  Right in their face.  Move in and out of cover whilst you close the gap. If it locks on just pause for a second in cover, so either the missiles miss or the Bruiser loses lock on you, and has to try to re-apply.  Repeat until you get to close range.

Ideally you want a piece of cover between you  EG: a missile silo or similar sized cover.  

Then play peak a boo.  TOW beats helfire. Fire at bruisers feet to get splash damage. Brusier will have hard time getting a lock this way, dumb fired helfires can work but most missiles will miss so damage is reduced.  
If it's pops its ability dodge back in cover and count to 2, then carry on.

Bruisers are one of the worst mechs in 1v1 duelling, the are mid-long range suppressors after all.

[Stingz]

kazuya989, on March 21 2014 - 03:39 AM, said:

...
Then play peak a boo.  TOW beats helfire. Fire at bruisers feet to get splash damage. Brusier will have hard time getting a lock this way, dumb fired helfires can work but most missiles will miss so damage is reduced.  
If it's pops its ability dodge back in cover and count to 2, then carry on.

Bruisers are one of the worst mechs in 1v1 duelling, the are mid-long range suppressors after all.

You don't need to shoot for feet unless it's HEAT Cannon, TOW can detonate mid-air to snag them anyways. Also I've noticed lots of Bruisers flying around since it has 30 air points.

[kazuya989]

You don't have to , but if it's on the ground then why not aim for the feet _  One less thing to go wrong.

Heat Cannon, EOC, Seeker, Rev-GL would all be better like that,  and items like detonator, emp, ism, & HE charge.

[Targetloc]

Thanks for the tips guys.

Pushing the fight to short range and refusing to get into a fight without good cover handy has really made the Bruiser feel like much less of a threat.

I did manage to dodge a locked Hellfire last night, but it still seems a lot trickier than dodging other weapons at mid range, and not worth the risk when you can just reposition and fight on better terms.

It's tough to back off some times when he's holding a position you need to take, but the extra time of backing off and trying a new approach takes a lot less time than fighting on his terms, dying and then having to try again.

I also learned that boosting can make you show up on radar even without LOS, so walking up on their position has been huge for taking them by surprise at a range where their missiles are near useless.

[Claxus]

Yeah, you should get into the habit of just not boosting, whenever possible without wasting a lot of time. It helps in any engagement, but it does hold true a lot more against Bruiser since he lacks in CQC self-defense, having to rely on the vulcan and a perfectly timed ability then.

The Bruiser excels at midrange and can be hard to approach, but don't be afraid to, either. If you're at mid-range and a B or C class, you can just opt to rush in and take a volley of missiles (even moreso if you use Deflectors), and keep pushing forward. Because of hellfire's cooldown and lock time (totals like 6~ seconds_), oftentimes you can just force into close range before they get to shoot another wave if they're holding a position.

Just be aware that you'll still have a vulcan to deal with up close, and hellfires can be shot manually, so skilled pilots with excellent aim can still give you a run for your money along with damage absorb. They can even still lock on and slip away with a 90 degree turned side-boost to then arc locked hellfires just at the effective range to hit you, if you give them room. But there's a clear advantage virtually any other mech besides the Rocketeer has once up close, just don't get careless.

Most B/C mechs (and Reaper) can simply win by DPS advantage (focus on your accuracy more than avoiding damage) even at hellfire range, as long as you're also at your own effective range. Bruiser is extremely versatile and has considerable armor, but in the end, that provides more reliability and consistency than damage output.

Edited by Claxus, March 23 2014 - 12:34 PM.

[Frisbee_Player]

What you can do is, as a reaper, get up close by running around them (do not boost!) use the dome shield as a "grenade" and fire it right on top of them then they'll move out of the sheild to shoot you, and you can hover over them back into the shield, making you go inside, and have them outside. As you do this you can shoot them a bit, then just keep repeating, at close range the reaper has a really good DPS with precision overdrive, and the bruiser is reasonably slow, which is advantageous for the reaper. However beware the vulcan, if you slip up once doing this you will probably be torn in half.

I suggest practicing this tactic against heavy's because they are a lot slower, but they still have a high DPS.

and also, reaper is not a great sniper until you get the slug rifle, so I suggest generally using it as a close to mid range assassin/ skirmisher

Edited by Frisbee_Player, April 04 2014 - 12:28 PM.

[IronClamp]

Targetloc, on March 19 2014 - 07:19 PM, said:

For the Reaper, obviously anything in the open is a no-go.  Two Hellfires and even a sneeze from the Vulcan will put you down.

Close range feels like suicide because the Vulcan will easily chew you down and it's very hard to keep breaking LOS against a good pilot to out-burst with the Sabot.

The Reap is meant for putting lead in their back to finish them off when your teammates have them on the run. They also are good, adaptive snipers, so try hitting it from a distance with ready cover for when he tries to hit you with his Hellfires, and be wary of splash damage.

If someone already said this, or you already knew this, 'scuse the ignorance.

[SuperSpartacus]

kazuya989, on March 21 2014 - 05:21 AM, said:

You don't have to , but if it's on the ground then why not aim for the feet _  One less thing to go wrong.

Heat Cannon, EOC, Seeker, Rev-GL would all be better like that,  and items like detonator, emp, ism, & HE charge.

You can explode HE charge by hitting the button again after launching. (the number buttons I mean idk if R works) Idk about the other items since I've only been buying mechs so far but I would assume that they are similar_