24 replies to this topic

[ticklemyiguana]

Not your MMR per se, but have a person's MMR be correlated to one of 50 or so ranks, and your rank fluctuates with your MMR. The rank is visible, the MMR remains the same, but this way some of the newer players-while they may feel like they keep getting stomped in unbalanced games, at least understand that the people that they are playing are so many degrees more skilled at the game.
I recall jumping into Hawken and landing in a pit of much more skilled players, and it was frustrating, but if I could have pointed and said, oh.. well he's a level 28, and I'm a level 15, I would expect some discrepancy there, then I might have felt a little better. Furthermore, since you gain more MMR in higher level servers, you would visibly see your rank going up proportionately to the (im)balance of the match.
Dividing MMR into 50 sections allows for some stability while maintaining variation in rank, (unlike, say, CS GO), but if you want to get into the specifics, I see no reason it shouldn't be as available as it is now.

Apologies, apparently after editing the poll to read "(see below)" I forgot to make a section for that.
What I'd like is for rankings to be implemented but for there to be unranked, or practice modes alongside the ranked modes. That being said, the further division of servers with such a low playerbase may not be the wisest thing, and I would recommend that that be implemented only after a larger playerbase is established.

Edited by ticklemyiguana, April 27 2014 - 03:11 PM.

[nokari]

They were taken out because people would complain "Why are all these level Xs playing in this server_" and "MM is broken. It keeps putting me in matches with high level people." the same way we saw people complaining about every level 30 they saw.

It also may cause a psychological affect on people that makes them assume that since team A has the highest level player(s) (even though teams are balanced overall), that team B will likely lose. That may cause some people to see it as a good challenge to test themselves against higher level players, but it may also demoralize some people into a defeat or cause them to quit and look for a match with players with levels closer to their own or lower simply so they can win.

Now if we had a bigger population, none of this would be an issue, because there'd be a much higher chance of people being matched up in tight level ranges where the deviation would be very small. Unfortunately the current population is small and the levels are highly varied.

Edited by nokari, April 27 2014 - 02:06 AM.

[Akrium]

I say no, though with the coming of the leader boards it will probably show up there for people. So I wouldn't worry much about it.

Then we get to judge each other totally on numbers and not who or how they play. It's great... love leader boards.

[FakeName]

I say yes. Because I love to stalk other players

However, there is no real reason besides 'moral stuff' for making everything hidden like KDR, MMR and now even pilot level ...

[ticklemyiguana]

nokari, on April 27 2014 - 02:04 AM, said:

They were taken out because people would complain "Why are all these level Xs playing in this server_" and "MM is broken. It keeps putting me in matches with high level people." the same way we saw people complaining about every level 30 they saw.

It also may cause a psychological affect on people that makes them assume that since team A has the highest level player(s) (even though teams are balanced overall), that team B will likely lose. That may cause some people to see it as a good challenge to test themselves against higher level players, but it may also demoralize some people into a defeat or cause them to quit and look for a match with players with levels closer to their own or lower simply so they can win.

Now if we had a bigger population, none of this would be an issue, because there'd be a much higher chance of people being matched up in tight level ranges where the deviation would be very small. Unfortunately the current population is small and the levels are highly varied.

Unfortunately, without more players, matchmaking is broken. I would appreciate a warning the first time I log in. "THIS IS AN OPEN  BETA. THERE ARE A LIMITED NUMBER OF PLAYERS. THIS WILL SOMETIMES LEAD TO IMBALANCED GAMES. YOUR RANK IS AFFECTED PROPORTIONALLY TO HOW DIFFICULT THESE GAMES ARE." Something like that might go a long way for the psychological effect, especially if you could see your rank increase proportionally to you doing well in a high level game. Even a friendly reminder that this is occurring when the server detects a game imbalance might go some way to easing the minds of people who are getting stomped.

Akrium, on April 27 2014 - 03:10 AM, said:

I say no, though with the coming of the leader boards it will probably show up there for people. So I wouldn't worry much about it.

Then we get to judge each other totally on numbers and not who or how they play. It's great... love leader boards.

As for this, there is something to be said for numbers. People with very high MMRs are often very good. They do have a use, and the prestige of something like Level 50 when you can lose it just by performing poorly in one or two consecutive games may give players something to work toward.
I recognize that the idea of judging someone based on a leaderboard may not be your favorite, but is there not some merit to it_ This is, after all, a competitive game.

Edited by ticklemyiguana, April 27 2014 - 01:25 PM.

[EM1O]

I feel posting MMR is not viable, as it probably throws a thump at the server, which if magnified X 10 or 12 per match every match running....well, you get the gist of this. We used to hit Scrimbot whenever it itched. Now once an hour is all you get. I don't have dev info but I imagine I'm pretty close on a reason why "MMR-on-loadup" isn't gonna happen. At least not in the near future.
On a different note, once you are familiar with the players you encounter regularly, and note the newer "better" ones as you advance, MMR becomes rather meaningless overall.
No MMR posting can give me more info than an enemy mech popping out in front of me with "Xacius" floating over it. I doubt it'll ever happen again (due to balancing efforts so far), but it quite profoundly puts all the noise about MMR, KDR, etc etc into perspective.
It's a Game. Play.
-O

[ticklemyiguana]

EM1O, on April 27 2014 - 04:39 PM, said:

I feel posting MMR is not viable, as it probably throws a thump at the server, which if magnified X 10 or 12 per match every match running....well, you get the gist of this. We used to hit Scrimbot whenever it itched. Now once an hour is all you get. I don't have dev info but I imagine I'm pretty close on a reason why "MMR-on-loadup" isn't gonna happen. At least not in the near future.
On a different note, once you are familiar with the players you encounter regularly, and note the newer "better" ones as you advance, MMR becomes rather meaningless overall.
No MMR posting can give me more info than an enemy mech popping out in front of me with "Xacius" floating over it. I doubt it'll ever happen again (due to balancing efforts so far), but it quite profoundly puts all the noise about MMR, KDR, etc etc into perspective.
It's a Game. Play.
-O

I am not sure what you mean about the first part. Though in response to the second, not everyone is Xacius, and newer players aren't going to know these things anyway. Appreciate the response though.

[6ixxer]

NO!

People already whinge enough, don've give them another reason to defend losing.

Just man-up and improve your game. Playing against high level players forces you to change your tactics. This is also why I dont quit when on the underdog side of an unbalanced game. War isn't fair. Don't expect to always win and for the matchups to always be equal. Learn to play against a more powerful enemy and you will reap rewards later.

[/rant]
6ixxer

[ticklemyiguana]

6ixxer, on April 27 2014 - 06:59 PM, said:

NO!

People already whinge enough, don've give them another reason to defend losing.

Just man-up and improve your game. Playing against high level players forces you to change your tactics. This is also why I dont quit when on the underdog side of an unbalanced game. War isn't fair. Don't expect to always win and for the matchups to always be equal. Learn to play against a more powerful enemy and you will reap rewards later.

[/rant]
6ixxer

Not understanding your point, and I'm not whining about my game in any capacity. No one's saying the matches are even possible to be equal at this point. Please read the topic and posts before posting.

Edited by ticklemyiguana, April 27 2014 - 08:43 PM.

[6ixxer]

ticklemyiguana, on April 27 2014 - 08:39 PM, said:

6ixxer, on April 27 2014 - 06:59 PM, said:

NO!

People already whinge enough, don've give them another reason to defend losing.

Not understanding your point, and I'm not whining about my game in any capacity. No one's saying the matches are even possible to be equal at this point. Please read the topic and posts before posting.

I did read it.

Sorry, I didn't mean you whinging. I am also curious what MMRs are, but I don't want it implemented as I know that too many people already complain about matchups and this would only make it worse, for what gain_

I stand by my emphatic NO!

[ticklemyiguana]

MMR is matchmaking rating (as far as I understand, never actually seen someone use the term matchmaking rating) but it's a concept that is presently implemented. MMR is a number derived from a combination of factors and has a fairly solid correlation of player skill. That number is used to match you with players of your own skill. Yes, games are presently imbalanced frequently because Hawken has a low playerbase.

So, to answer your question-the gain of making them visible is

ticklemyiguana, on April 27 2014 - 11:21 AM, said:

Something like that might go a long way for the psychological effect [of match imbalance], especially if you could see your rank increase proportionally to you doing well in a high level game. Even a friendly reminder that this is occurring when the server detects a game imbalance might go some way to easing the minds of people who are getting stomped.

I do fail to comprehend how that makes the game worse or affects the balance, considering all I am asking is the translating of MMR to a visible rank and adding some verbal buffers to reassure new players.

[OmegaNull]

It turned things into a numbers fest. Not worth it.

[ticklemyiguana]

Hawken... is a game of numbers though.. Every high tier player understands DPS, TTK, damage per shot, healing rate, time to heal, and these are all just numbers and functions of numbers. Why is it a bad thing to assign numbers to a quantitative concept like player skill_ (and it is quantitative. MMR gets it close, and other games have had very solid ranking systems. They may not be perfect, but they are useful.)

Are some people going to be dicks about it_ Probably, but why not offer a visible incentive for players to work harder at the game_ Hawken already gives you the opportunity to taunt other players, has the leader carousel set up, (neither of which I really enjoy having set up) and ranks people on an individual game basis. Why is this different_

Woo. Hundredth post.

Edited by ticklemyiguana, April 29 2014 - 07:40 PM.

[6ixxer]

ticklemyiguana, on April 29 2014 - 07:39 PM, said:

Hawken... is a game of numbers though.. Every high tier player understands DPS, TTK, damage per shot, healing rate, time to heal, and these are all just numbers and functions of numbers. Why is it a bad thing to assign numbers to a quantitative concept like player skill_ (and it is quantitative. MMR gets it close, and other games have had very solid ranking systems. They may not be perfect, but they are useful.)

Hawken is a game about surviving and killing. I dont see how knowing the MMR numbers makes you play better or makes you feel better. IE: zero gain.

I dont see why knowing the skill of you opponent adds anything except angst. Its fine to have the numbers, but mech vs mech they all even out. MMR speaks to the ability of the individual and we live in a world where some people are rude inconsiderate bastards and I dont fancy giving them a statistic that they could use to grief other players.

ticklemyiguana, on April 29 2014 - 07:39 PM, said:

Are some people going to be dicks about it_ Probably, but why not offer a visible incentive for players to work harder at the game_

Why not_ you just said it; because some people will be dicks about it.
The incentive to work harder is being pwned, and you receive this incentive regardless of MMR numbers.

ticklemyiguana, on April 29 2014 - 07:39 PM, said:

Hawken already gives you the opportunity to taunt other players, has the leader carousel set up, (neither of which I really enjoy having set up) and ranks people on an individual game basis. Why is this different_

I think its different because its as discriminatory as making every student in a classroom walk around with their IQ in permanent marker on their forehead. Some mechanics do NOT need to be advertised.

Edited by 6ixxer, April 29 2014 - 09:34 PM.

[DaPheel]

I would like to see the mmr rating returned to the server browser.

The 1-3 stars is a simple system, but it is very vague. with 1 or 2 star servers I do not know if the server is of too high a skill level, or too low.

I don't mind getting my butt kicked, I just don't want to do it to others........

[reVelske]

A resounding "NO", the pitfalls have already been covered by nokari.

There are surely far better ways to attract new players than this.

[Frisbee_Player]

I think that MMR doesn't need to be shown, but it would (I assume at least) be rather easy to just make an option in the settings menu to allow you to see your MMR on your career page or something like that. It could be set to "off" by default. This would allow people who want to know what their MMR is to know, but it would also allow people who could care less not even worry about it.

[6ixxer]

I agree with letting people see their own MMR or the MMR rating of the game they are in, and then if you want to know someones... friend them and ask. This gives them the option of not telling you, telling or lying at their discression rather than being forced to have it broadcast without their permission.

[ticklemyiguana]

Revelske-there's no resounding no. Majority are yes votes. I'd love to see nokari's post.

Frisbee- That defeats the purpose. It's just a tag that helps lower players understand when they're playing poorly versus when they're just playing against much better people.

6- That's what we have now.

Edited by ticklemyiguana, April 30 2014 - 06:55 PM.

[nokari]

ticklemyiguana, on April 30 2014 - 06:55 PM, said:

Revelske-there's no resounding no. Majority are yes votes. I'd love to see nokari's post.

That's debatable since the middle vote option is more like a variety of "Maybe" than straight up "Yes".
My post was directly after your OP.

Quote

Frisbee- That defeats the purpose. It's just a tag that helps lower players understand when they're playing poorly versus when they're just playing against much better people.

Not really. As it is the only way for anyone to see any MMRs is to friend a bot that a community member created. There's no in-game option to see an MMR.
By displaying MMRs to everyone, people are not only getting to see whether they're playing poorly by comparison to other players or being expectantly beat by someone much higher in level than they are. They're also going to be deciding things like, "They're all 10+ levels higher than me. fuzzy bunny that! I'm not going to put up with a guaranteed loss." and looking only for matches where they're the highest level player.
It's neither our place to say which is more likely without some user testing, but both sides are valid possibilities to think about.

Quote

6- That's what we have now.

Only for people who are aware of ScrimBot and have friended it, which is  not the majority of players.

Edited by nokari, April 30 2014 - 10:20 PM.