58 replies to this topic

[RyanGo]

ShadowWarg, on April 29 2014 - 08:08 AM, said:

• (MAYBE) Back dodge internal that swaps out the 180 (cant shoot and on a dodge cool down

• Use fuel  to prevent your self from overheating can continue firing

A back dodge would be cool, I also thought about that.

Also as a variant on the second one, I wonder if it would be more balanced/make more sense if there was an internal that allows you to fire while overheated at the cost of damage to yourself_

[Mawnkey]

ticklemyiguana, on May 04 2014 - 03:56 PM, said:

Adding an extra dimension to your gameplay doesn't give you an advantage_ Could have fooled me. If you're fighting someone strictly in the air or strictly on the ground, you're doing it wrong. Then there's the whole being able to doge out of lifts and negating fall damage while moving in the direction you want to go part. Please. List the internals that are of greater advantage than that.

Deflectors, extractors, and repair kits come immediately to mind. I can't name a build I've seen that doesn't include at least one of those three (very often two of them), save for extremely specialized builds like snipers where I take an advanced fusor and a replenisher.

However, you're putting words in my mouth. I didn't say it adds no advantage. I said that I don't find that it makes the huge difference that a lot of people act like it does. At least against me. Once somebody's in the air, they're moving slower in most cases than they can on the ground, so my hitscan weapons now hit more reliably. Thanks to the way most explosives in the game can be detonated on demand, I also find hitting them with a TOW or grenade about the same as hitting them on the ground, even if they use the AC. It just doesn't feel OP to me at all. I use the AC on my Berserker due to its design that encourages taking advantage of it. I've used it for all the things you mention. However I find more benefit (i.e. they're used more frequently and in more situations) from the deflectors and basic extractor I equip as well. I often find myself wishing the AC was a 2 slot so I could load in a regular extractor.

I know, here comes the barrage of talk about "high level play" to insult my opinion (because that's the trump card on this board I've noticed), but really what I'm talking about applies at every "level" of play. The AC is situational and somewhat mech dependent. Deflectors are more useful, imparting an addtional bonus to something every player not in turret mode should be doing anyway, regardless of their level of experience or type of game or mech they're playing in. Extractors help recover health after every kill made, encouraging more kills and also useful even in turret mode. Ditto for repair kits. There's several mechs that benefit from AC to some degree, but not near as many as benefit from the three other mods I've named.

Honestly I think the dominance of the AC in so many builds right now is just due to the current meta of A class being the dominant class in a lot of cases, and two of the more powerful A class mechs (Berserker and Scout) being the mechs most likely to benefit from AC. In the big scheme of things though, normally when I see somebody start flying in combat, I appreciate them moving slower and making themselves easy to hit while their fuel lasts, even if they have an AC. I dunno, maybe it magically messes with other peoples' heads. For me I just see a slower, easier, more obvious target to shoot down.

[ticklemyiguana]

Mawnkey, on May 04 2014 - 04:25 PM, said:

ticklemyiguana, on May 04 2014 - 03:56 PM, said:

Adding an extra dimension to your gameplay doesn't give you an advantage_ Could have fooled me. If you're fighting someone strictly in the air or strictly on the ground, you're doing it wrong. Then there's the whole being able to doge out of lifts and negating fall damage while moving in the direction you want to go part. Please. List the internals that are of greater advantage than that.

Deflectors, extractors, and repair kits come immediately to mind. I can't name a build I've seen that doesn't include at least one of those three (very often two of them), save for extremely specialized builds like snipers where I take an advanced fusor and a replenisher.

However, you're putting words in my mouth. I didn't say it adds no advantage. I said that I don't find that it makes the huge difference that a lot of people act like it does. At least against me. Once somebody's in the air, they're moving slower in most cases than they can on the ground, so my hitscan weapons now hit more reliably. Thanks to the way most explosives in the game can be detonated on demand, I also find hitting them with a TOW or grenade about the same as hitting them on the ground, even if they use the AC. It just doesn't feel OP to me at all. I use the AC on my Berserker due to its design that encourages taking advantage of it. I've used it for all the things you mention. However I find more benefit (i.e. they're used more frequently and in more situations) from the deflectors and basic extractor I equip as well. I often find myself wishing the AC was a 2 slot so I could load in a regular extractor.

I know, here comes the barrage of talk about "high level play" to insult my opinion (because that's the trump card on this board I've noticed), but really what I'm talking about applies at every "level" of play. The AC is situational and somewhat mech dependent. Deflectors are more useful, imparting an addtional bonus to something every player not in turret mode should be doing anyway, regardless of their level of experience or type of game or mech they're playing in. Extractors help recover health after every kill made, encouraging more kills and also useful even in turret mode. Ditto for repair kits. There's several mechs that benefit from AC to some degree, but not near as many as benefit from the three other mods I've named.

Honestly I think the dominance of the AC in so many builds right now is just due to the current meta of A class being the dominant class in a lot of cases, and two of the more powerful A class mechs (Berserker and Scout) being the mechs most likely to benefit from AC. In the big scheme of things though, normally when I see somebody start flying in combat, I appreciate them moving slower and making themselves easy to hit while their fuel lasts, even if they have an AC. I dunno, maybe it magically messes with other peoples' heads. For me I just see a slower, easier, more obvious target to shoot down.

I like the way you make your argument, and I appreciate it. It's very often (not just in these forums, but AFK too) that any debate devolves into some form of senseless battle, so thank you for moving away from that.

I will say I don't think its OP, and I'm not sure how many other people believe that, but I will also say that you're right about high level play. I don't intend to use it as a trump card, but once you get comfortable with it, you can weave it together with ground play (especially now that the pause has been removed on landing) and sustained weapons become very difficult to use on that sort of target. Perhaps you just happen to be the exception, that is possible. There's a guy in my clan who's just started playing Hawken (only has a few hours game time) and is just absurdly good-but hasn't mastered much of the movement yet.

Repair kit is an item, so we can't really debate that-though coupled with extractors is very useful. I tend to put deflectors and air compressors on my scout because my playstyle usually means that I will have a full 20% more health, and yes it's useful, but I find far more use with the air compressor. It is my personal opinion, but many, many people consider the AC one of the most advantageous and necessary internals for all classes (though two or three mechs do have more effective builds, depending on playstyle), and many of these players are very good.

If you do better with something else, by all means, use it. I am however making the argument that since most people find the AC to be a necessary component to good gameplay, it should be available at a very low level.

Edited by ticklemyiguana, May 04 2014 - 04:36 PM.

[XPloyt]

The AC and Air 180 exponentially enhances the players' ability to manuever; you become an aerial acrobat when those internals are used properly. When different elevations are present it allows a player to be twice as effective in engaging or fleeing, especially moreso in conjunction with shields.

If all you do is dodge back and forth without any other intention than to avoid a projectile you're just another target, to the folks who actually understand the timing and speed of a weapon, the predictive movement and the start of the dodge cooldown.

Making the AC default would probably further enlarge the skill gap making all types of players frustrated and annoyed(as in watching players dance to their death)

As much as I like the AC, I realize that it is not as advantageous to put on a B or C mech  - The way I see it it is, if I'm in a bad position, I don't expect to flee from any mech (esp. as a C), or I can't engage quickly as a C without repurcussions, so why bother with better manueverability(AC) when my hitbox is big, and I'm slow-moving_ I thought about putting AC on my SS, but I feel that the other internals I use far outweigh any incentive for using the AC.

PersonalIy, I feel making those internals a default mechanic of the game wouldn't make a difference across the different mech types, as it would still benefit A's the most, but it would benefit anybody who didn't spam it.

[The_Silencer]

nepacaka, on May 04 2014 - 03:14 PM, said:

Quote

My raw approach right now would be as follows:

1.- C Class mechs: Air Compressor  + 180º air turn both equipped by default.

2.- B Class mechs: 180º air turn by default or perhaps Air Compressor equipped by default instead..

3.- A Class mechs: As it is now. You've to purchase both internals.

Thoughts_

unfair

mech like brawler not really need air-dodge. because he flying like... stone
XD
In other words, poorly. it's just not need air-dodge. but if make air-dodge equipped by default, it's just make many mech (actually, most of A- and B-class) stronger by default, while others mechs do not offer any advantages.


besides, after #increasethespeed it became much easier to fight against mechs using AC. But, newbie player still can't beat any mech with air-dodge.
air-dodge it's just kryptonite for players with less than 1600-1700 rating.

Unfair_ -> Nopers. I said these were raw suggestions. Basically a brainstorming exercise from me as a first ground to discuss in here (as well).

Brawler_ -> Might be exceptions; why not_  On the other hand, C class mechs could well execute their own and distinct air maneuvers for a better addition as value in the game. Meaning with that unique distances, velocities, accelerations -and even heights if you wish..- for their own air combat style. That would be interesting enough to be evaluated up there, IMHO.

Poorly... -> Not precissely the most appropiate calification. Due that -although pretty raw- these suggestions are not precissely poor nor quite simple but a set of potential specs as first ground which could represent as moderate impact in gameplay as probably an addition of value to the game.

More facts plus a couple more of  "looking back" quick glances -> Air combat was pretty clumpsy in the past. It was improved with the addition of the 180º mid-air turn and Air-Compressor. The current scheme has inconveniences or things which may be improved_ Yes, probably. However, a bit chunk of my initial point would be: Contribute to move forward, look back to isolate where the problems are and which ones as much specifically you can, and coherently dissect and rationalize the good and the bad of the feedback we apport in here.

More facts, Vana stated that they were thinking on the possibility of going universal with certain parts of the air maneuvers -for every mech in the game. IIRC, that was what he said during a Cockpit show time ago. And the crowd made comments on this as well -check the Cockpit's twitch channel to know more). Such a move would cause big impact in gameplay; no doubt about that. Ergo my initial feedback on the subject in here( as well).

You don't like the 180º air turn_ Well, just don't use it then. Why you don't like it_ Ellaborate well to let us know why. Although lemme tell ya.. To be ending up as a fat or thin duck in mid-air isn't fun most of the times. I think many players will agree on this. Are air dodges like, let's say, pretty difficult to handle by some players_ Yes, probably (mostly when executed by certain A class mechs -and I remember, for instance, how Houruck loves to execute intrincate air maneuvers while piloting their A class mechs. Hence my surprise when I see him being so contrary about the 180º air turn... anyways ..

Quick Conclusion: Don't say nay so quick. Think, evaluate, imagine... don't imitate.. or something.

Hope this helps somehow, that's my goal, not anything else; just to make the game better if possible.. remember that.

[Mawnkey]

ticklemyiguana, on May 04 2014 - 04:35 PM, said:

Repair kit is an item, so we can't really debate that

Repair Kit - Gain 15% more armor repair from orbs.

You're thinking of a Repair Charge, which Repair Kits and Extractors are often wisely paired with.

[burns1124]

To all the people claiming the "meta" has AC using a class as top class, you haven't seen/played in an organized scrim, ever.

AC equipped a's get shredded immediately unless they time sneak attacks/flanks perfectly with their team.  Radar signatures and VoIP nullify any tangible advantage when people can aim and coordinate fire from multiple angles.

In pubs, the problem is more related to lack of class restriction to 2 class types per team and no doubles (can't have 2 assaults etc on one team) when you have 2-6 air zerker spamming F with smcs that hit cross map with no increased spread as they tap space bar is the issue, not an internal that added a layer of depth and changes that promoted more mobility.  Trivializing map design is a problem, and them maps need to have more built into them to allow mixed engagements being fair (air v ground mechs).

I like the internal ideas but most of the concepts and opinions her are based purely on public play at lower than average mmrs, and this should not really be considered when balancing something like AC.

[comic_sans]

burns1124, on May 05 2014 - 09:12 AM, said:

To all the people claiming the "meta" has AC using a class as top class, you haven't seen/played in an organized scrim, ever.

What this guy said.  The one time I did, I spent 90% of the match repairing.  Folks that claim a-class dominance in any mode don't know the joy of having a team that works with you; focus fire can have that A gone in a heartbeat, and their team's down a guy.  Then you push.

A classes really only work when you can depend on the other team to forget about you.

Edited by comic_sans, May 05 2014 - 09:23 AM.

[burns1124]

<3 u sans, I'll always fear it scout

Edited by burns1124, May 05 2014 - 09:30 AM.

[LONEDEADWOLF]

Remove air dodge all together ..i know it would make me happier..

I dont like the feel of the mechs any more they keep getting more and more like humans ...and i came to pilot a mech not be a damn mech thats why were called pilots....The more the days go by the more it feels less and less like mechs even the heavies are getting lost in the fog...I got in an A class and i thought i was in a car...seriously  it is a sad day when Titan Fall has a better mech feel then a game like Hawken when we should have that Mastered by now.....

Edited by LONEDEADWOLF, May 05 2014 - 09:42 AM.

[Mawnkey]

comic_sans, on May 05 2014 - 09:22 AM, said:

burns1124, on May 05 2014 - 09:12 AM, said:

To all the people claiming the "meta" has AC using a class as top class, you haven't seen/played in an organized scrim, ever.

What this guy said.  The one time I did, I spent 90% of the match repairing.  Folks that claim a-class dominance in any mode don't know the joy of having a team that works with you; focus fire can have that A gone in a heartbeat, and their team's down a guy.  Then you push.

A classes really only work when you can depend on the other team to forget about you.

This doesn't surprise me. Anytime I'm on TS with a couple friends and we join a PUG, 3 people focusing fire on a floating target that's away from cover just burn it down in a matter of seconds. We focus hitscan and put secondaries out, but hitscan primaries alone is usually enough to create a flaming wreck quickly, and that's from only 3 players. I can't imagine having a full team focusing fire with somebody calling primary targets.

Then again, suddenly it feels like playing EvE again...

[burns1124]

Having a shot caller is an invaluable asset in any team based game, HAWKEN's loss of VoIP has made team play and coordination things of happy chance, or require TS/mumble/skype to achieve any consistent return.

I think that while AC and air combat is a little too strong in pubs, and with the current maps not punishing or curtailing holding space bar and LMB, making the internal universal is probably the wrong move unless they either reduce the amount of internal slots, release more interesting and useful internals, or bring back air spread increase for automatics.  

Sure folks can say "l2aim", the problem is you can't aim at 3 floaters hitting you from 3 different angles because cover wasn't designed with everyone floating around in mind.  AC isn't to blame here and air 180 is a joke.

Let's actually allow the meta to be defined by the best, not drooling mouth breathers that can only play 2 mechs and push 3 buttons

[shosca]

I, for one, will welcome our new air dodging brawler overlords...

Edited by shosca, May 05 2014 - 11:38 AM.

[Rokka]

XPloyt, on May 05 2014 - 01:17 AM, said:

Making the AC default would probably further enlarge the skill gap making all types of players frustrated and annoyed(as in watching players dance to their death)

I doubt this being an issue. HAWKEN tutorial is really well done and I found little to learn after that when fighting inside the game, compared to ie. Loadout which has no tutorials which why newbies doesn't know crucial movement techniques like Diveroll jumps or airwalking.
AC and Air 180 are maneuvers and I am all the way supporting making these to be on mechs by default. Movement plays huge role in this game too and limiting access to high level pilots or early payers feels more like lame monetizing method.

[comic_sans]

shosca, on May 05 2014 - 11:32 AM, said:

I, for one, will welcome our new air dodging brawler overlords...

is it bad that I do that already

[shosca]

comic_sans, on May 05 2014 - 03:40 PM, said:

shosca, on May 05 2014 - 11:32 AM, said:

I, for one, will welcome our new air dodging brawler overlords...

is it bad that I do that already

You should totally do that with the raider g2 too.

Also I know you were using AC on a tech before it was cool...

Edited by shosca, May 06 2014 - 04:28 AM.

[The_Silencer]

/* Just as side note: I'm one of the best players on the battlefield and I don't go braggin' around.. MMRs_ lol... 3 or 4 high MMR overinflated guys firing at me -all together and when my team mates are mostly novice/average players- is what give you such a confidence most of the times here_ */

You know who you are. Back on topic.

[ShadowWarg]

The_Silencer, on May 06 2014 - 05:33 PM, said:

Your are coder aren't your_

[The_Silencer]

ShadowWarg, on May 06 2014 - 05:54 PM, said:

The_Silencer, on May 06 2014 - 05:33 PM, said:

Your are coder aren't your_

I'm not coding for the HAWKEN game in case that's what you were asking me for...

Additionally, I was mostly kidding on that "I'm one of the best players around" chunk I posted above. However, I honestly think I use to play more than well and I also love to play HAWKEN with my mates in the most coherent, effective and original ways I'm able to.. it's only that I find that inclination shown by some few top players to be likw somehow fun and ill at the same time when they, so to speak, discriminate other good players because of their lower MMR. At the end who evaluates the feedback we all provide in the House are the devs... you know what I mean_

For example, I've never abandoned a match during all these many (and I mean many..) months. Well, to be honest, I think that I have 2 abandons only in my pilot profile; but those were given to me because I ended up in one siege game in which there was 2 or 3 players only into it. The other one was one disconnect due to a game crash, IIRC. I think you get my point though...

I'm probably rambling now... so I'll leave it here and like this.. for now.