10 replies to this topic

[xeroslash]

Preface - this is going to be a long and ranty post. Feel free to skip this if you don't feel like reading something long!

Lately, aside from Hawken, I've been playing Unreal Tournament 2004 for nostalgia sake. I grew up playing mostly Counter-Strike 1.5, but UT99/UT2004 was also something that I played often back when I only had dial-up and couldn't hog the phone line for extended periods of time (I played CS mostly in LAN cafes at the time). And it hit me - I really missed playing arena shooters from years past. I stopped my bot game and launched the server browser. I saw that there weren't a whole lot of players... no biggie. Next thing I know, I found myself in a 24/7 DM-Rankin server and getting my ass handed to me.

At that moment, I realized two things:

1. I'm getting too old and I suck too much at arena shooters, and
2. Even though Hawken is a "dumbed-down" UT on many levels with many core arena shooter elements absent, it has a lower concurrent player count than other contemporary shooters

I went on Google to try and get a better picture of how arena shooters are doing today.

1. Quake Live/CPMA, Xonotic, Warsow and its peers - most FPS players today that grew up on CS and COD are put of by the arena playstyle. You not only have to be good at aiming, but movement and map/item control are also important skills that you need to develop as well. These games has high skill ceilings and unless you've kept up playing all these years, you're going to get owned for months. Sounds familiar_

2. UT3, Strike Vector, Nexuiz (the commercialized version) - I feel that UT3 was sort of the beginning of the fall of the arena subgenre (COD4 was released in the same year). Thereafter, there were a few attempts to revive the arena style. Strike Vector was an indie title that is essentially dead today. The commercialized Nexuiz failed to appease core arena fans, while the rest of us never really bothered with it either (similar to UT3's situation). Traditional publishers no longer see arena shooters as viable ventures, and indies often struggle due to limited exposure in the first place.

3. Hawken, Loadout - As F2P games with some (but not all) arena shooter elements, these two were able to keep a higher concurrent playerbase than the above titles (http://steamgraph.ne...d=208090q271290). Nevertheless, compared to COD9000, BF4 or even CS 1.6, the gap is huge.

4. Team Fortress 2 - This is probably the only remaining "arena" shooter with a high concurrent playerbase, although it's really stretching that definition quite a bit. Speed/pacing is a lot slower, and teamplay dependency is much more pronounced than traditional arena shooters.

5. Project Nex, Reborn, etc. - There are a number of upcoming and ongoing arena shooter projects in the works, although many of them largely plan to serve their core player base. I have no objections to this, but I don't really see these titles gaining traction over the F2P arena-"lite" shooters (Hawken, Loadout), let alone TF2.

I feel that this is due to the following two FPS player demographics (all made up in my head of course, but I suppose they have some merit):

A. Players that grew up on CS and COD: These are simpler to pick up and play in comparison to the Quake/UT-likes, and I don't see this group playing other arena shooters unless they have more streamlined mechanics.
B. Players that grew up on Quake/UT: Kudos to those of you that still play arena shooters to this day, because there probably aren't many of you left. Most of you that started Quake young are probably in their late 20s/early 30s and beyond by now, and your reflexes are probably no longer up to snuff if you haven't maintained your game up until now. The younger crowd today has the choice of playing easier games, and although a few may delve into Quake Live, most are probably going to go for the easier game (COD) - these days it's fortunate to even have fresh blood coming into CS:GO.

It all goes back to this:

While Hawken does have its own unique problems, it may simply be because the current market for arena shooters, no matter how dumbed down they get, simply doesn't appeal to many players in general anymore.

Any thoughts_

[DaPheel]

Some good points there.

Well, at least when UT4 comes out, it'll give all of us old timers a new place to play. That'll bring all of them out of hiding. Then we can lure them into Hawken with the promise of giant mechanoid destruction.

[Nept]

xeroslash, on May 19 2014 - 05:51 PM, said:

Any thoughts_

https://www.unrealen...nt-begins-today

Oh, and if it makes you feel any better, your reaction times are actually at their peak (well, at their lowest) in your late 20's/early 30's.  They decrease until about that point, and then slowly increase until your 60's and 70's where you notice a marked increase.  Decent and accessible literature review here: http://biae.clemson....10/reaction.htm


*Edit* Gave this a good read-through after our evening scrims, and have to say that I agree completely.  It's always face-palm inducing watching community members claim (or expect) that Hawken will/should see numbers similar to CoD/CS/LoL, and that their brilliant suggestion (spoiler: not actually a brilliant suggestion) will see the game rendered irresistable to millions of gamers.  Hawken will never be that game because the current gaming environment isn't conducive to ridiculously successful arena shooters.  Do you think a homosexual presidential candidate would do well in Russia right now_  No_  Same idea.

I've played Unreal Tournament 2003 and Unreal 2 XMP competitively; played UT99, UT2k4, and UT3 casually (although competition never started up in the former), and have dabbled in basically everything else you mentioned.  Also have competitive experience in Fallen Empire: Legions, Tribes: Ascend, Battlefield 3, the occasional MMO, and an assortment of smaller games (Transformers, Space Marine, etc.).

Simply put, people don't like knowing that they're not good at games.  Arena shooters make shortcomings obvious, are difficult to learn, and require information processing abilities well beyond the average person's limits.  Military-style shooters, with their rapid ttk's and slow movement, offer easy satisfaction for less-skilled gamers.  Although there's decent coordination and twitch ability at the upper end, the vast majority of players never encounter it.  Alternatively, they'll encounter it, claim hacks, and switch servers.  Most military-style shooters cater toward casual players looking for fun, while arena shooters cater toward those players wanting a challenge.  And when you're raised on one approach to gaming, it can be tough to see the merits of the other.

In terms of UT3's downfall, it's worth noting that the developers were attempting to attract the Gears of War console crowd - as evidenced through their MASSIVE NECK artstyle and marketing approach.  They even shoehorned a terribly written "story" into the game.  Little attention was paid to PC customers, and early beta feedback was entirely ignored.

The whole downwards spiral is actually captured quite well by the mouse options.  Where UT99/2k3/2k4 offered players three decimal points worth of sensitivity settings, UT3 gave players a slider from 1 to 8, and forced mouse acceleration and smoothing by default.  Although arena shooters have never enjoyed the popularity of their military-style brethren, UT3 kinda made its own bed, so to speak.

On the encouraging side of things, we're starting to see increased movement options and skill ceilings in games again.  Dodging has become commonplace in RPG's (e.g., The Witcher series, Dragon Age 2, Elder Scrolls, Two Worlds 2, Wild Star, Dark Souls), new development models have made possible niche options like Hawken and Loadout, and even games aimed at the masses are starting to incorporate better movement (e.g., Titanfall).  I'm hopeful that Unreal Tournament 4's development will see our hobby come full circle, with more gamers being exposed to challenging gameplay at an earlier stage of their "gaming development".  Might even see arena shooters catch up to their slow-paced competitors.

Edited by Nept, May 20 2014 - 08:44 AM.

[xeroslash]

I have high hopes for the next UT as well - one of the strong suit of the franchise is its immense customization in mods, mutators and the likes, and it looks like that will be carried on.

Nept, on May 19 2014 - 06:20 PM, said:

Oh, and if it makes you feel any better, your reaction times are actually at their peak (well, at their lowest) in your late 20's/early 30's.  They decrease until about that point, and then slowly increase until your 60's and 70's where you notice a marked increase.  Decent and accessible literature review here: http://biae.clemson....10/reaction.htm

Interesting... I guess I still have a few more years to go!

[hellc9943]

Can't say I agree on all parts, but I think you hit the nail on the head with this one:

xeroslash, on May 19 2014 - 05:51 PM, said:

While Hawken does have its own unique problems, it may simply be because the current market for arena shooters, no matter how dumbed down they get, simply doesn't appeal to many players in general anymore.

Reasons for this situation are widespread. Players these days are casual. Now don't take this at elitism, I'm pretty casual myself, but when I started playing games, there was neither casual nor pro. PC gaming was still quite a niche, hell, PCs in itself were one and multiplayer gaming even more so. I had the feeling that back then, games were from gamers for gamers to some degree. All that has changed thanks to broadband and consoles and probably many other reasons, too much to go into that. Else I might also rant about "these kids today".

I've talked with quite a few people my age who only picked up PC-gaming in this new millenium. If anything, they started out with CS, never really played Quake or any other classic FPS be it in single player or multiplayer but despising it because it is too "arcadey" and "not realistic enough". Speed, bunny hopping, rockets, carrying nine weapons at the same time, items lying around and all that. I played the new Rise of the Triad lately and I can feel how strange that must feel to these people if you've just played through the new Michael Bay movie.

That's not what I see when I think of an arena shooter however, I see depth, challenge and competition - I never had what I'd consider good aim, hitscan-wise at least. I am no twitch player, I prefer splash damage and to predict where my opponent will be the next second so I can lead my rockets and grenades to where he will pop up. That's why I love arena shooters in general, good movement and map control can equalize poorer aim to a certain degree.
Now the headshot game introduced with CS, two weapons, no items, instant kills_ I hated it by heart. Always felt to me like you needed one skill only. Looking at current shooters from my standpoint it all is dumbed down and lacking depth (and yeah I agree that even Hawken is dumbed down in some regards as well).
Just practice your aim like you have Asberger and you're good to go. "Boom-headshot-you're-dead" is all that it's to me. Funny thing is, that makes these games harder for me to play though they are actually much easier in the core mechanics.

I don't think that has much to do with me getting old and losing my reflexes though, I feel I am a better player now than some 15 years ago and I guess my aim these days is actually better. But then I'm well adjusted now and pretty relaxed.

I may have had luck getting into Hawken with the Steam patch because there were probably a lot of new players like me just getting the hang of it so it wasn't that frustrating to me. I got my first kills in my first games pretty fast and didn't feel getting stomped too hard. I felt pretty much at home from the start and could marvel at other players movements, map knowledge and situational awareness instead of rounding that corner, and, yeah, "boom-headshot-you're-dead".
But to acknowledge that, you have to have played some more games than the CODs and CSs of this age and be able to read a game. I get so bored if I see a frag movie from Counterstrike. That's as thrilling as a penalty shoot-out to me.

[Amidatelion]

xeroslash, on May 20 2014 - 05:53 AM, said:

Nept, on May 19 2014 - 06:20 PM, said:

Oh, and if it makes you feel any better, your reaction times are actually at their peak (well, at their lowest) in your late 20's/early 30's.  They decrease until about that point, and then slowly increase until your 60's and 70's where you notice a marked increase.  Decent and accessible literature review here: http://biae.clemson....10/reaction.htm

Interesting... I guess I still have a few more years to go!

The other thing is that these are subject to a wide variance of other neurological factors: I for one have been in a downward spiral of twitch skill since 21. I was semi-pro at UT99 when I was a teenager and then age hit me like a hammer. At 21 I could barely keep up with a buddy I gamed with and now he completely dusts me, and we practice about the same amount. YMMV as they say.

My mileage sucks balls, where can I trade in this meatvehicle.

hellc9943, on May 20 2014 - 07:56 AM, said:

That's not what I see when I think of an arena shooter however, I see depth, challenge and competition - I never had what I'd consider good aim, hitscan-wise at least. I am no twitch player, I prefer splash damage and to predict where my opponent will be the next second so I can lead my rockets and grenades to where he will pop up. That's why I love arena shooters in general, good movement and map control can equalize poorer aim to a certain degree.
Now the headshot game introduced with CS, two weapons, no items, instant kills_ I hated it by heart. Always felt to me like you needed one skill only. Looking at current shooters from my standpoint it all is dumbed down and lacking depth (and yeah I agree that even Hawken is dumbed down in some regards as well).
Just practice your aim like you have Asberger and you're good to go. "Boom-headshot-you're-dead" is all that it's to me. Funny thing is, that makes these games harder for me to play though they are actually much easier in the core mechanics.

I don't think that has much to do with me getting old and losing my reflexes though, I feel I am a better player now than some 15 years ago and I guess my aim these days is actually better. But then I'm well adjusted now and pretty relaxed.

See, I entirely disagree here. I enjoyed CS much more than UT2k4 because it gave a great deal more tactical depth to the game at an entry level (by which I mean UT's DM vs CS's only style of play). Sure there were a paucity of equipable weapons, but the necessary understanding of those weapons increased by a great deal in general play. UT's only really complex weapon was the shock rifle. Things like map control, teamwork, deployment of disruptive devices, all that gave a tactical depth missing in the average UT game. Of course then you get to CTF and all that and that changes, but UT's main draw that we're talking about here is primarily rooted in the DM mode.

I prefer games like CS, TF2  and now Hawken because they give me an asymmetric method of play that I can use to compete with people I am quite simply too damn old to take in a twitch match.

What happened to the arena shooter_ Sure, the market has moved on, but I think it's a lot more that the players who formed the body, the majority, not the core, of the old arena shooter moved on. And consoles have time and time again shown that the "core audience" just does not make them the most money. The same is true of PC games, we just have a smaller sample size and smaller difference between core and majority.

[Superkamikazee]

Nept, on May 19 2014 - 06:20 PM, said:

Simply put, people don't like knowing that they're not good at games.  Arena shooters make shortcomings obvious, are difficult to learn, and require information processing abilities well beyond the average person's limits.  Military-style shooters, with their rapid ttk's and slow movement, offer easy satisfaction for less-skilled gamers.  Although there's decent coordination and twitch ability at the upper end, the vast majority of players never encounter it.  Alternatively, they'll encounter it, claim hacks, and switch servers.  Most military-style shooters cater toward casual players looking for fun, while arena shooters cater toward those players wanting a challenge.  And when you're raised on one approach to gaming, it can be tough to see the merits of the other.

The issue has more to do with the gaming market, and not that no one has the skill to play arena shooters. It's an investment (time) to sit and play one game exclusively to master it. Games have become a form of entertainment, and artistic expression (for the most part). Just the sheer number of releases we get a year compounds the issue. To spend enough time playing to master an arena shooter in order to be "competitive" would mean missing out on a ton of great experiences other games could offer someone.

I don't have the time like I used to back when I was younger, my Socom 2 days. I was in weekly clan wars, and scheduled practice sessions to improve my play and to better play as a team. There's no way I could do that now working 40 hrs a week, playing hockey, drifting my car, or whatever else adult life throws at me (house work). I can't even play twitch shooters anymore, I can't keep up with these tweens that don't have jobs and nothing but free time on their hands.

I play Hawken maybe 4-5 nights a week, 1hr or so long sessions, and guess what, I suck. By the time I get warmed up, it's time to wrap things up, and that's that. #CasualGamer

tl;dr Arena, twitch shooters, too many games to play, not enough time to get good at them. Casuals ruined everything.

Edited by Superkamikazee, May 21 2014 - 01:43 PM.

[SoldierHobbes11]

Personally I think people have gotten so damn impatient when it comes to gaming, they tend to dislike games that actually take time to get good at. People want to just pick up a game and instantly be good at it, hence the creation of games that are tailored to the lazy gamers.

[EM1O]

AlienArena, Nexuiz, UT, Doom/2/3/etc, UrbanTerror, MW2/3/Mercs, QuakeWars. Guess what_ I still have the downloadable or retail CDs of nearly all these (many I've played in Linux). And I still fire up the Smokin' Guns (WesternQuake3d), or BZFlag clients a couply times a week.
And yup: I suck more now than I ever did. I sure wish MS hadn't bailed on the MWMercs tag. It was awesum.
But most of 'em for arena play_ Rapid boredom creep. Hawken isn't that much different than Quake's mechanics, when you come right down to it, but I always did adore the simple blast and burn of MW before the Online bastardization came along, and that's whats appealing to me about Hawken!

[Opicron]

Im in the closed beta of DirtyBomb (changed to Extraction then back to DirtyBomb again ). I must admit that I have high hopes for this one! I think it should be on your list .. no_

Been playing Enemy Territory for years and was pretty good in the european league. Splash Damage is the same developer for both ET and DirtyBomb.

/edit sorry .. resurrecting dead threads ..

Edited by Opicron, August 19 2014 - 11:42 AM.

[EM1O]

@Opicron
This topic needed a bump. The OP still applies, and it needs exposure (as mention earlier in the thread) to newbies, confirming that we're not all a buncha bored crybaby tards. Well, maybe not all that bored...
I also read that your reflexes/reaction time does an inverted bell curve back upwards as you close in on age 70-80.
Any minute now... . .  .    .    .