10 replies to this topic

[D20Face]

Why do you need to play in order to gain levels in order to get things that can't be obtained by paying_

You don't get money. The f2p model is a money making model. You aren't gaining any money by having forced play content in a multiplayer only game.

You unbalance gameplay and detract from the new user experience. The first point should be a focal point of any game developer. The second should be a focal point of anybody that likes making money on a game that is essentially its own demo.

It isn't customization, it's just flat out content restriction. What is the logic behind it_ Please remove the level qualifiers and tie everything to cash or currency. If you want to tie people to levels for early incentives just give them some pidly in game currency bonuses at every checkpoint. Or heck, mech slots. Anything that doesn't effect your in-game performance.

Edited by D20Face, October 25 2012 - 07:24 AM.

[BeefC4ke]

D20Face, on October 25 2012 - 01:22 AM, said:

Why do you need to play in order to gain levels in order to get things that can't be obtained by playing_

What_ You had to play to get the levels thus you played to obtain the stuff.

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You don't get money. The f2p model is a money making model. You aren't gaining any money by having forced play content in a multiplayer only game.

They plan to sell XP and HP boosters that you can buy with MP so they do make money from this.

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You unbalance gameplay and detract from the new user experience. The first point should be a focal point of any game developer. The second should be a focal point of anybody that likes making money on a game that is essentially its own demo.

The improvements you get don't make that big of a difference. You're going to get much more advantage by buying a mech with the proper guns that all fit your play style. At least this has been my experience.

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It isn't customization, it's just flat out content restriction. What is the logic behind it_ Please remove the level qualifiers and tie everything to cash or currency. If you want to tie people to levels for early incentives just give them some pidly in game currency bonuses at every checkpoint. Or heck, mech slots. Anything that doesn't effect your in-game performance.

Well as previously mentioned they will make money off of it so that's one reason.

In a way, XP is a currency and one that you earn by playing that you can then "spend" on your mech when you choose your perks.

The only downside I really see is that you have to earn this for each mech.


End point: Content restriction is better for F2P games than it is for one time purchase games. When I buy a game I want to have everything at the start. That's why I bought it.

[D20Face]

BeefC4ke, on October 25 2012 - 07:11 AM, said:

D20Face, on October 25 2012 - 01:22 AM, said:

Why do you need to play in order to gain levels in order to get things that can't be obtained by playing_

What_ You had to play to get the levels thus you played to obtain the stuff.

Typo on my part. Fixed.

BeefC4ke, on October 25 2012 - 07:11 AM, said:

They plan to sell XP and HP boosters that you can buy with MP so they do make money from this.

XP boosts tied to level systems are traditionally the worst sellers in this sort of game. Boosts also include credit boosts(Hawken Points), so the players switching from one boost system to another means no shift in money gain.

BeefC4ke, on October 25 2012 - 07:11 AM, said:

The improvements you get don't make that big of a difference. You're going to get much more advantage by buying a mech with the proper guns that all fit your play style. At least this has been my experience.

1. 15 heals per second is huge, as are the flat health amount optimizations and radar distance ones.
2. You cannot change the weapons on your mech without the appropriate level in this build. Infiltrator is limited to only the primary and alternate primary until you've leveled up. Why have two gates, the purchase and the level_

Edited by D20Face, October 25 2012 - 07:41 AM.

[Roundlay]

D20Face, on October 25 2012 - 01:22 AM, said:

Why do you need to play in order to gain levels in order to get things that can't be obtained by playing_

Your post is verging on non-sequitur, no_

It follows that, if you are required to play Hawken in order to level up, and you need to level up in order to obtain things, then acquiring things is an indirect consequence of playing Hawken.

Leveling mechanics are a form of scheduled reward, allowing designers to pace a player’s progression in the hope of "hooking" them. When players are hooked, they’re much more likely to stick around and play your game, spend money in your economy, or in the very least, make the game exciting for those players that already do. All so long as there are more pretty rewards on the horizon...

There are different schools of thought on whether or not this mechanic is valuable, or even harmful to the player:

"As game designers, we don’t know how to make food, so we resort to drugs all the time. It shows in the discontent at the state of games – Radosh wanted food, but Halo 3 was just giving him cheap drugs. (Blow, 2007)"

In the context of a mech based shooter, though, I think some kind of leveling mechanic is valuable carrot on a stick; this isn’t Braid. The alternative that you hint at is a progressionless, zero-sum, Happy Meal of a shooter.

Edited by Roundlay, October 25 2012 - 08:20 AM.

[D20Face]

Roundlay, on October 25 2012 - 08:19 AM, said:

D20Face, on October 25 2012 - 01:22 AM, said:

Why do you need to play in order to gain levels in order to get things that can't be obtained by playing_

Your post is verging on non-sequitur, no_

Typo was fixed before your post.

And they have the credits system. They don't need the leveling bonuses to encourage continued play.

Not to mention that traditionally non-mechanical tie-ins have had more success at retaining players than mechanical ones. Look at Cowdoody. Prestiging makes you loose all of your fuzzy bunny, a statistical DISadvantage. People look at prestiging as a goal. Look at Team Hatress. When you get a weapon do you look at it as a weapon or as 1/81th of a hat_

Edited by D20Face, October 25 2012 - 09:03 AM.

[Hipnox]

Personally, i'm glad Pay players can't just dump a crapload of cash and get to top level right away. It gives too much of an advantage over Free players


Remember, the more and better stuff Pay players are able to obtain with minimal effort and time spent, the more Free players will turn away from this game, regarding it as "just another Pay2Win game".

[F15H3R]

Hipnox, on October 25 2012 - 09:12 AM, said:

Personally, i'm glad Pay players can't just dump a crapload of cash and get to top level right away. It gives too much of an advantage over Free players


Remember, the more and better stuff Pay players are able to obtain with minimal effort and time spent, the more Free players will turn away from this game, regarding it as "just another Pay2Win game".

I concur to this statement as I've done enough turning from games after running into somebody sporting a 6.99 weapon and 14.99 set of gear; as they dance around almost completely lacking skill and somehow survive when I clearly beat them in all ways but one.

With that said, I'm aware that this company is a business and they require money to run so the idea of a F2P game finding balance (that is, allowing wallet warriors and occasional spenders/time investors to coexist) is something few companies have pulled off and kept the company out of the red.

I haven't played yet, so I've got no personal opinion on Hawken yet.

[D20Face]

Hipnox, on October 25 2012 - 09:12 AM, said:

Personally, i'm glad Pay players can't just dump a crapload of cash and get to top level right away. It gives too much of an advantage over Free players


Remember, the more and better stuff Pay players are able to obtain with minimal effort and time spent, the more Free players will turn away from this game, regarding it as "just another Pay2Win game".

And here I thought I was suggesting the removal of levels entirely.

I like how people don't care about the new players, just the free players.

"New players should have to deal with fuzzy bunny because they're new, but I'm allowed to be cheap"

I am 100% against total stat differences between players. I'm fine with options opening, but flat upgrades between players from any source, payed or played, is bad.

Pay to win isn't bad because you have to pay, it's bad because it causes unfair and unbalanced games. Having new players need to eat the experience of fuzzy bunny mechs in addition to being new is just mean.

Edited by D20Face, October 25 2012 - 10:08 AM.

[Loveless]

I have no idea where you are getting your facts, unless it is all personal opinion and if it is, you're wrong. The experience system that has been in almost every single free-to-play model, is extremely successful and well received every time a game comes out. People like the sense of progression, it gives them constant short-term goals to aim for while playing and keeps players interested. Giving boosts to this by making people pay, is also extremely popular. I would say that at least 20-30% of people who play free-to-play models, will buy a boost every now and then, judging off how many people I have met in free-to-play games.

Just because you personally do not like something, does not make it wrong. These guys have people that were specifically hired during game production by the biggest name in electronic entertainment funding to research and develop a free-to-play model for Hawken, because that is what the creators wanted from the very start.

Also, nobody is against the new players, however I am willing to bet most people have played a game during the Alpha, Beta or Initial Release of a new game. Players will not try to figure anything out on their own, instead instantly turning to the chat function: "How do I move my character_" This is the problem with new players and especially new players in free-to-play games, because they refuse to learn anything on their own and everyone is willing to help, just not on the scale that these people demand. After they have one question answered, they will constantly ask and never try to learn something on their own. "How do I find ________" And then someone points out that they were told where it was when they were told to find it, "Then just tell me." If the question is not answered, "How do I find ________"

Of course not every new player is like that, but I have made my point and it is very consistent.

[/rant]

[Hipnox]

D20Face, on October 25 2012 - 10:08 AM, said:

And here I thought I was suggesting the removal of levels entirely.

I am 100% against total stat differences between players. I'm fine with options opening, but flat upgrades between players from any source, payed or played, is bad.

Stats and level systems are some of the necessary trade offs needed to make a F2P model work.

On a 'normal' retail game, the player makes a single purchase at full price and that's it. There might be some other micro transactions in the form of DLC. Once you buy the game, the Company has your money. Aside from populating game servers for multiplayer games, i don't think they really care much if you play the game or not. The already got my money after all.


Free2PLay games on the other hand are purely based around micro transactions. They take your money a few chips at a time. As a result, they need to keep the player invested for a relatively longer time and the servers populated.

One way to do this is a progression system. A Level/experience system that rewards time investment in the game and hold off features an content, handing them out as player progresses is a good way to keep them interested and playing.

Players WANT to gain EXP and $$$ to get to the better, cooler weapons and mechs. In this case, to gain Tweak points for mech finetunning and $$$ for new items.

If you go too far, the game turns to grinding. On the other hand, 0 progression might make the game boring, as having access to every feature in the game early on doesn't give much incentive to keep playing and trying new things.

D20Face, on October 25 2012 - 10:08 AM, said:

I like how people don't care about the new players, just the free players.

The game is a Free2Play, and as a result, the FREE part is the most important part. If the game doesn't feel like a Free2PLay game, than it fails as a game itself.

Newer players are usually free players too.

[D20Face]

Loveless, on October 25 2012 - 10:40 AM, said:

I have no idea where you are getting your facts, unless it is all personal opinion and if it is, you're wrong.

Most developers I have talked to have said that a majority of the profits are from cosmetic items and cosmetic related items. They even went on to say that fewer, flashier cosmetic items sold better than many super customizable cheaper ones.
When it comes to boosts credit boosts sell better than xp boosts.

I also never said anything about the disposition of new players. Just that you're giving them worse mechs while knowing that they won't know the maps like the players with the better mechs, further compounding a bad and unfair experience for them.

Hipnox, on October 25 2012 - 11:19 AM, said:

Stats and level systems are some of the necessary trade offs needed to make a F2P model work.

Tell that to TF2 and Dota 2(I don't play either game, but I know the models).

Neither gives you any statistical advantage and valve is swimming in money from them. TF2 EXPLODED in popularity when it went F2P. The excuse of "it was a game before then" doesn't touch on how the model influenced the game from then on. Consistent money rolls in on a game that hadn't made a profit in years.

Tell that to the numerous web games that make money solely through donations(100% free games). Tell that to Tetris Friends, which doesn't give you an edge over other players while playing from levels, but just access to some new cosmetics to buy.

And I'm not saying remove the credits, just the levels restricting access to stats. Heck, you could keep levels and tie them to access of different options instead of straight up upgrades. Let people unlock different gear, different weapons, and different mechs. Just. Not. Better. Ones.

You don't need levels when you have credits. You're already restricting content flow by forcing gear modification purchases, levels are redundant and do nothing to help.

Edited by D20Face, October 25 2012 - 11:55 AM.